View Full Version : Dogs in the back country
Optimistic Paranoid
11-13-2010, 07:02 PM
Hi all.
New guy here, first post actually, so perhaps I should tell you a little bit about myself before I post my question.
I'm getting ready to retire in a couple of years and am planning to full time RV in a more or less expedition style. I'm thinking a 4X4 pickup and small - 16 to 20 ft travel trailer. Set up the TT as a a base camp and use the 4X4 to get deeper in to interesting places for photography, both day trips as well as short 2 to 3 days overnighting in a tent. I want to spend winters in the southwest and summers up in MT and WY, probably go up the Alaska Highway and the Yukon at least once, and so on.
I just finished reading the thread here about the woman who was attacked by a bear while sleeping in her tent. The thing that hit me was that she had no warning whatsoever, being sound asleep.
Now I've had a license to carry a concealed handgun for the last forty years. I've worked as an armored car guard, and I've had a fair number of firearms training courses with some of the big name trainers. (BTW, if anyone here has any questions about that kind of thing, I would be happy to serve as a resource for this forum.) I've done Mas Ayoob's LFI courses, and Mas always pushes the necessity of alarms so that you are not surprised and overwhelmed in your sleep.
So when I read the bear attack thread, the first thing that popped into my mind was to wonder if a dog would have alerted her in time to take action?
I also noticed that no one in that thread raised that suggestion.
So then I also got to wondering if a dog would keep waking you up all night long every time a racoon or possum came near your camp?
Does anyone here take a dog into the back country with them? If so, how does that work out for you?
I must confess that my family has always had cats, but I'm now thinking about getting a pup - maybe a border collie - so I can begin raising and training him so he'll be ready to go when I am. Would love to hear from anyone here with practical experience with WELL TRAINED dogs in the woods. Thanks.
Regards
John
Sergeant_V
11-13-2010, 07:24 PM
Hi John, welcome to ExPo! I've always had a dog with me while traveling in the back country. My chocolate lab has been exploring and camping with me since she was as puppy. I'm sure experience will vary, but once bedded down for the night my dog doesn't wake me up with alerts for small critters. She doesn't wake me or bark for anything she doesn't consider a threat. That said, large game animals or free range livestock walking around near camp do occasionally sound threatening to her :sombrero:
maximumrob
11-13-2010, 08:44 PM
The dog will do exactly as you expect...it will alert you to outside noises it's not expecting. That could be everything or very little.
Since you're trained in defense (and offense?), you already know there's not much one can do about a well-executed ambush attack, whether by man or bear!
Enjoy the outdoors and take your quadriped buddy along if you like. Follow all the basics of camping safety and you'll likely have a great time. If I can offer any advice at all on camping with the dog, make sure your dog is the right kind of animal to have with you. For instance, taking a Malamut on a Death Valley trip isn't kind to the animal nor does a single-coat Pit Bull belong on any kind of winter trip! Mine shivers too much and is miserable :)
JerryYukon
11-13-2010, 09:05 PM
I'm already doing what you are planning on doing. I also have a cabin, so when I'm not traveling, I hang out there. I have a Yellow Labrador Retriever and she also does not wake me up at every odd sound. We do plenty of back country stuff and she's a pleasure to have along. If you plan to travel alone, dogs are a great addition.
Lost Canadian
11-13-2010, 11:03 PM
We take our dog everywhere with us and truthfully, once she's in the tent she doesn't wake up for anything. We've had critters roam by our tent waking us up and she's just kept on sawing logs. When she's sleeping she offers nothing in terms of an alarm, awake is a different story. She's a good foot warmer though.
http://trevorbrown.smugmug.com/photos/1029759170_5a83T-S.jpg
huskyfargo
11-13-2010, 11:19 PM
I usually travel with my good friend. He has a chocolate lab, and I have a chocolate and a yellow. My experience is the same as the other lab owners. Once they're down for the night, they don't get up for much of anything. I can't imagine traveling without my dogs!
PirateMcGee
11-14-2010, 12:17 AM
I take my dog............however, if you read my post here http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=44664&page=11 you'll find that my dog was more of an attractant than a deterent. Only get a dog as a companion and if enjoy yourself more when your dog is around. Otherwise i do not recommend you get a dog.
goin camping
11-14-2010, 01:25 AM
We camp with out Yellow Lab and German Shepherd. Once the Lab falls asleep he's not waking up for anything. Unless the Shepherd hears something and wakes him up. She wakes up at everything but only makes noise for big critters and people.
rambrush
11-14-2010, 01:38 AM
Like others have posted my yellow lab and black lab mix seem to ignore sounds outside of the tent. With the Moose, Elk, deer and bear traffic I would have thought they would be barking but nope they sleep through it.
The yellow lab used to chase deer but figured out quickly she was no match.
Terrainist
11-14-2010, 06:10 AM
Dogs, so many good and nice reasons to have one or two. And just about the same amount of reasons not to have one around. Don't have a dog around where there is cactus, that always tips the scale for me.
BKCowGod
11-14-2010, 06:46 AM
My lab mix (I hate the word "labradoodle", he's a MUTT) goes camping with me. He gets carsick, but otherwise he seems to love the change of pace and he makes an excellent motion detector at night!
Just remember to keep him hooked up or make sure he is VERY well trained - if he bolts after something in the wild, you may never see him again...
http://www.kuhgott.com/gallery/d/18189-1/IMG_2427.JPG
hillbillyjake
11-14-2010, 11:04 AM
my female black lab goes were ever i go. she is great with the kids and will let you know if somethings up. she has never had any special training. i know this sounds funny, but it knida seems like intutition to me. strange i know, but she just some how seems to know some thing not right.
i personally will never be with out a dog in the house. or tent, camper, ect....
my $.02. good luck
goodtimes
11-14-2010, 03:30 PM
My pit bull goes everywhere with us. Around camp, she isn't on a leash or in a crate -- she roams free. At night, she used to sleep in the tent with me, until she got booted in favor of my current girlfriend (Marisa doesn't stink like the dog does :sombrero:). Now, she sleeps on a blanket on the ground -- still untethered. I can't recall a single time that she has made any noise once bedded down while camping.
She is extremely well behaved, quiet, and very friendly. Even dog-haters like Cherokee. But she is *not* a guard dog (or even a 'warning' dog). She is also slightly problematic when traveling in hot climates -- you can't leave 'em in the truck while you go into a restaurant, grocery store, etc.
My advice is to research and pick your breed carefully. Get one that is going to fit in with your personality, and one that you can accommodate with regards to the amount of exercise they need, physical size, etc.
Or go down to the pound and find the most pathetic looking mongrel they have, and take it home (that's pretty much what I did last time -- and I ended up with the coolest dog I've ever had).
Errant
11-14-2010, 03:39 PM
Two dogs always with us when remote camping.
huskyfargo
11-14-2010, 03:44 PM
My Herd:
http://i1126.photobucket.com/albums/l618/huskyfargo/Jeep/P1000221.jpg
BKCowGod
11-14-2010, 04:16 PM
My Herd:
You have Neapolitan dogs! One of each flavor...
huskyfargo
11-14-2010, 04:22 PM
You have Neapolitan dogs! One of each flavor...
Actually, the dark ones are both Chocolate. One is just darker than the other. They're all related though. The one looking at the camera is the oldest, Sirach. He is the uncle of the other chocolate, Baruch. And, the yellow is Baruch's son, Jonah. They're all uncut males and they love to spend time together. A lot of people find it hard to believe that three uncut male dogs can manage not to kill each other, but they all sleep in a big pile on the bed and have no problems getting along whatsoever.
Like others have said, research your breeds and be warned. Some places are not dog friendly, be it people, laws or the environment. Also each dog is very different. My lab is very smart, he is different when I am home and when I am away, so the wife tells me. He ups his alertness and protection level. Now that he is 14 my Golden is the "alert" dog and the lab reacts to her. I must say they both have great instincts. They are great camping and have not been overly excited in the night. Now I can't say whether we were under attack at any point and they ignored it, or if we have not been in that situation. But they have gotten antsy in the tent for a bit to a "danger" unheard or seen by myself.
From what I have heard, bears don't like dogs, and I am sure they smell them and may stay away. I do camp in bear country and have other forms of protection as well. I have not had a run in with a bear other than stalking one for a few minutes while hunting.
Dogs attack and kill way more people than bears do, so the logic doesn't pencil out.
In addition, you're more likely catching a fatal disease from your dog than getting killed by a bear. Not that either is reason for any type of concern.
Keep some bear spray in the tent and sleep like a baby.
Dogs attack and kill way more people than bears do, so the logic doesn't pencil out.
In addition, you're more likely catching a fatal disease from your dog than getting killed by a bear. Not that either is reason for any type of concern.
Keep some bear spray in the tent and sleep like a baby.
Your post has NO logic!
Where did you get your numbers from? Does this account for the number of dogs vs number of bears? Does it compare the number of bears kept as pets vs attacks, against number of dogs kept as pets vs attacks?
Do you expect the can of bear spray to wake him? My can has never made a sound without me moving it, however my dog barks at people coming to my front door! What if the can goes off by itself? I bet there are more instances of cans exploding than guns going off on their own!
What about mountain lions? We didn't cover them at all. Or a raccoon coming to eat your food and destroy your property? I hope that can of bear spray has been calibrated for raccoons and skunks! They have disease!
Tucson T4R
11-14-2010, 06:38 PM
My Giant Schnauzer Roxy goes with me on almost every back country camping trip. She is a great watch dog and just fun to have around. She sleeps inside my trailer with me in her crate but the crate door is open so she can go in and out she pleases.
Once you get to know each other well and have a dog well trained it gives you the peace of mind to sleep soundly knowing she will get you up if the need arises.
http://bgarland.smugmug.com/Camping-Trips/Mt-Graham-2010/20100619-Mt-Graham-20100046/909525810_bAy2F-XL.jpg
http://bgarland.smugmug.com/Camping-Trips/2010-Pig-Camp-Redfield-Canyon/201002031789/784670643_ZPnCE-XL.jpg
http://bgarland.smugmug.com/Family-and-Friends/Roxy/IMG4005/1090794610_B6o7z-XL.jpg
Of course sometimes you might loose your chair. :sombrero:
http://bgarland.smugmug.com/Camping-Trips/2010-Pig-Camp-Redfield-Canyon/201002041810/784671606_n6PKB-XL.jpg
huskyfargo
11-14-2010, 08:44 PM
Dogs attack and kill way more people than bears do, so the logic doesn't pencil out.
In addition, you're more likely catching a fatal disease from your dog than getting killed by a bear. Not that either is reason for any type of concern.
Keep some bear spray in the tent and sleep like a baby.
Ummmm...sorry dude, but that's some insanity that just spilled forth from the tips of your fingers rattling onto the keyboard.
Sounds like you must be a cat person, so maybe you should be at home knitting some booties, or a holder for your bear-spray instead of out camping.
cwsqbm
11-14-2010, 11:53 PM
Dogs attack and kill way more people than bears do, so the logic doesn't pencil out.
In addition, you're more likely catching a fatal disease from your dog than getting killed by a bear. Not that either is reason for any type of concern.
Keep some bear spray in the tent and sleep like a baby.
There are lies, damn lies, and statistics. Dogs kill more people (usually kids) for the simple reason that people are around dogs all the time and rarely around bears. On a per-encounter basis, the bear is probably 10,000x more dangerous than a dog.
Your post has NO logic!
Where did you get your numbers from? Does this account for the number of dogs vs number of bears? Does it compare the number of bears kept as pets vs attacks, against number of dogs kept as pets vs attacks?
Do you expect the can of bear spray to wake him? My can has never made a sound without me moving it, however my dog barks at people coming to my front door! What if the can goes off by itself? I bet there are more instances of cans exploding than guns going off on their own!
What about mountain lions? We didn't cover them at all. Or a raccoon coming to eat your food and destroy your property? I hope that can of bear spray has been calibrated for raccoons and skunks! They have disease!
I didn't give you any numbers, but its common sense that dogs kill way more people than bears do. I'm sure you can google it if you want to confirm it for yourself.
As far as having a dog wake you up so you're ready for the bear? Maybe if you train the dog to be awake while you sleep but thats a little ridiculous don't you think? You really need to think about the likelihood of a bear ripping you out of your tent without any warning. If it is truly a concern there are better and more sure fire ways of preventing it, like a portable electric fence. Besides, the dog is much more likely to turn a curious encounter into a full fledged assault. Staying asleep (aka playing dead is a better defense than stumbling out of your tent to see why your dog is going crazy.
Ummmm...sorry dude, but that's some insanity that just spilled forth from the tips of your fingers rattling onto the keyboard.
Sounds like you must be a cat person, so maybe you should be at home knitting some booties, or a holder for your bear-spray instead of out camping.
Hate cats, they were obsoleted with the invention of decon and the mouse trap as far as I'm concerned. Dogs are a much better pet, and they are great for hunting. If you expect a dog to save you from a bear, thats not likely to happen unless it has been trained to do so. But again, bear attacks are so extremely rare it isn't worth the trouble unless you were constantly pestering bears.
There are lies, damn lies, and statistics. Dogs kill more people (usually kids) for the simple reason that people are around dogs all the time and rarely around bears. On a per-encounter basis, the bear is probably 10,000x more dangerous than a dog.
But if you have a dog you will be around it all the time and maybe never encounter a bear so what is your point? The fact remains that getting a dog to save your life doesn't pencil out. The dog is more likely to cause a bear attack than prevent it. I live in a place that has bears everywhere, not the bears that are well fed from Salmon and accustomed to tourists like in Alaska. These bears are malnourished and way more likely to consider your calorie content verses ability to harm them. Putting a dog into the situation forces them to fight because they realize if they run the dog will attack.
I'm all for people taking dogs into the woods, even bear country. Bears are NOT a legitimate risk to be concerned about. Its people that have no experience with bears that are the most afraid. You have a hundred other things to worry about before you start worrying about bears attacking you in your vehicle/tent.
There are many considerations to getting a dog, preventing a bear from killing you in your sleep is not one of them.
PirateMcGee
11-15-2010, 03:49 AM
^ agreed....its been my experience
I didn't give you any numbers, but its common sense that dogs kill way more people than bears do. I'm sure you can google it if you want to confirm it for yourself.
What does your common sense tell you about the number of bear encounters a person has in their life vs the number of dog encounters?
Mosquitoes kill upwards of 3 million people a year. Well, the parasites and bacteria they carry does it, after being stung by a mosquito. But how many mosquitoes are in the world and and what are the number of people exposed? So yes, while death by a bear is rare, it happens. The op is asking "if a dog would have alerted her in time to take action?". Your answer "a can bear spray".
As far as having a dog wake you up so you're ready for the bear? Maybe if you train the dog to be awake while you sleep but thats a little ridiculous don't you think? You really need to think about the likelihood of a bear ripping you out of your tent without any warning.
What does your common sense tell you about a dogs ability to hear and smell vs a human?
You really need to think about the likelihood of a bear ripping you out of your tent without any warning.
Do bears announce they are coming? Common sense tells me no.
Besides, the dog is much more likely to turn a curious encounter into a full fledged assault. Staying asleep (aka playing dead is a better defense than stumbling out of your tent to see why your dog is going crazy.
So you are saying a bear that hears a dog going crazy in a tent is likely to stay to fight the dog? Then when you open your tent and shine a light on it, it will now know where to go fight?
Keep some bear spray in the tent and sleep like a baby.
Common sense tells me a dog is better at alerting me of any danger, including bears, than a can of bear spray.
While bow hunting this weekend I saw a dog chase away a bear!
There was a heard of goats were moving down a small ridge across from us and we heard the dogs start barking like crazy! We heard something moving below us and we standing so we could see into the valley. I looked over to see a black shape move up toward the goats, it popped into sight again and it was a black bear. This Maremma sheepdog (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maremma_Sheepdog) jumps out from behind a bush and the bear took off with the dog in hot pursuit and out of sight!
After things settled down we started to move on, knowing there were sheep, dogs and bears here, we guessed the elk were not too close. My buddy snapped a branch and the dogs went crazy! They came down the ridge, across the valley and started up at him. I spotted him and he ran straight over to me, the dog was coming for him. As soon as the dog saw us he stopped, looked at us for another second, turned and headed back to the heard like nothing happened.
So we were not attacked by a bear, and the dog that mistook us for the bear, didn't attack us either. So the score was dog 1, bear 0, human 0, we didn't get an elk (or a bear or a dog).
We also have a dog and she goes camping, canoeing, hiking & backpacking with us. She is a small (15 lb) long haired Border Terrier. Great dog & well trained. She always sleeps in a pet carrier at night, even at home. So when camping its no different, she sleeps in the carrier, under the trailer. She only growls/barks at night, if an animal comes into her area, like a raccoon or coyote. I like the early warning "Good Dog".
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-gOFegdO1vOs/Shx43fZ_nPI/AAAAAAAAIhQ/vw8FjA1Ce1M/s640/CIMG1588.JPG
matt s
08-31-2011, 07:25 AM
Interesting thread. Bears are really not that big a deal. I have spent quite a bit of time with them, both the supposedly tame "salmon" bears and their malnourished inland cousins. (007, while ribbing you a bit, I do agree with your point about the likely hood of anyone having a bear problem)
I was about 3 feet away from this one
http://www.mattswallingphotography.com/photos/906995661_ZBkbh-L-1.jpg
Do we take precautions, absolutely. Do we get worked up about it? No. What method you use is up to you. I won't enter the gun/spray/fence debate. Biggest is just being bear smart.
As to dogs, I take them everywhere (2 goldens) they have run off several bears for us over the years, and my friends labs do the same. As to the dog being asleep, I can tell that you that when a bear comes near camp our dogs wake up and get really weird, pawing the ground, whining, rolling, etc. It's really a freaky experience. Once they see the bear they have then chased it off. I have never had a bear stick around once the dogs go off (barking etc) or the people start shouting and making a fuss, most peoples bear encounters involve watching the south end of the north bound bear as it takes off scared like hell of you. (salmon bears putting up with fisherman being the exception).
Many of the lodges up here have dogs that help serve the purpose of keeping the bears out of camp.
ALL OF THAT said, I don't know anyone that owns a dog just to be a bear dog, or as even one of their top 5 reasons. Get a dog because you want one, not for bears, they are great camp company.
rotti
09-01-2011, 01:52 AM
Dogs in the woods is a mixed bag, the good, the bad and the ugly.
The ugly is trying remove porcupine quills from the mouth of a pissed off Rottweiler. The bad is when said Rot and my GSD decided to tangle with a skunk (no, bloody mary mix does not work). The good is everything else: devotion, protection, companionship, love and as a bonus you'll live longer (read that somewhere).
As far as bears I've been lucky and haven't had to deal with that, but if it's skunks or porkies my babies have got my back!
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