Flip Pac vs AT Camper (or FWC)

[AUTO360]

Have a 2000 Toyota regular cab 4x4 with the 2.7 ltr.
First I liked the Flip Pac. The price and the weight. But, the tenting part not being water repellent is a draw back. Just don't want to be worrying about putting the rain cover on.
Then I e-mailed All Terrain campers to ask about the weight of their shell model. They said about 500lbs. Thats about 100lbs more than the Flip Pac. So now a slide-in starts looking more realistic. The other pluses are it can be taken out much easier than a Flip Pac can be taken off, I can put Kayaks on the top and I can have a fantastic fan installed. I'm sure there are more. The price is a bit more so thats 2 or 3 months extra savings but I think it would be worth waiting. Plus I kinda like having a door instead of the whole tailgate mess.

Any thoughts on this.

Matt

[Martyn]

Just for clarification, when you say "AT Campers" I'm guessing you are referring to All Terrain Campers who make pop up slide in camper shells.

AT is a trademark held by Adventure Trailers for all vehicles, campers, trailers etc. AT is our brand name and has been used to refer to our company. It has also been used as a generic term to describe off-road trailers.

To avoid confusion you may want to change the abbreviated version "AT Campers" to All Terrain Campers.

[Northern Explorer]

AUTO360

I had some of the same thoughts when I was choosing a new setup for myself. Here are some comments on some of the points you made.

FWC's (that's Four Wheel Campers :)) are light but a flip pac will definitely be lighter. Considering you have a 2.7 liter this is something to think about.

You need to ask yourself what kind of environment you will be camping in. For me, having a solid roof was one of the major deciding factors.

I have a topper that I put on in the winter which I'm guessing is very similar to the installation of the flip pac. The FWC is much more time consuming to install then the topper.

You could put kayaks on top but you will have to take them off every time you pop the camper up. Next summer I plan on doing some overnight local camping/kayaking trips but I will be putting the kayaks on a light duty trailer.

Fantastic Fans are great.

One more thing and this was also a major deciding factor. Flip Pacs are very specific as to what truck they are made for. A truck camper is much more interchangeable between different makes and models. So if you decide on a FWC and the 2.7 just isn't doing it for you, you can upgrade your truck and keep your camper.

[rynosurf]

Plus I kinda like having a door instead of the whole tailgate mess.

Any thoughts on this.

Matt

I prefer the AT/ Four Wheel campers but having a tailgate is much more useful than a door. I had a Callen with doors and it was nice to climb into but having a tailgate for a stove or sitting on would have been more useful than the doors.

[homemade]

I’m no expert, but for that truck a flippac (FP) would be my choice hands down. For reference, I have a ‘98 Ford Ranger with a 3.0 so I have some experience with the capabilities of a small truck. I also have a F350 diesel crew cab short bed and I built a camper similar in size and weight to a FWC Hawk for it. I have had it for 6 years and driven thousands of miles with it on the truck. I think that I am going to either buy a FP for the super duty or build a back flip version of a camper similar to a FP.

From their web site FP weigh about 250-290# depending on bed length. A 500# camper + gear = real heavy. Before buying either I would try loading up you truck with sand bags with this weight, keep in mind that the camper would have a higher center of gravity to make handling worse and the FWC/AT would also have significant wind resistance at speed.

- front over cab overhang is much larger on a FWC/AT which adds to wind resistance/drag.
- rear and side/rear visibility is much more restricted with the FWC/AT
- the interior of a FP would be much larger when open than a FWC/AT
- if you kept it for 5 or 6 years the depreciation alone on an FWC/AT would probably be close to the entire cost of a FP.
- if you have a 6’ bed a new FP camper is for sale listed in the equipment for sale portion of this web site. It looks like a deal. I wonder why they installed the side window so high, it seems like it wouldn’t be the best for passenger side/rear visibility.

[Shruk]

I've got a full size Nissan Titan with a big V8. Right now, we have an FRP Flippac and are now looking into a FWC. After 4-5 years of use, we're tired of pulling everything out every night when we stop. It's great for what it is but we're looking for more convenience. I'd be concerned about the weight of a FWC, as light as it is, for your truck. I'd be sure to talk to someone who has on one on a truck with your engine before deciding.

[Overland Hadley]

I have thought about this a lot, and for me a FWC is by far the better option.

The whole rain cover issue is a big reason the Flip-Pac does not appeal to me.

Resale value is so good on a FWC, and the FWC are not vehicle model specific. So a person with a Ford Ranger can buy the FWC that was on a Tacoma. Look at the resale values, and see what you think.

And for the weight issue. It seems to me that most people who buy a flip pac end up building a lot of heavy furniture inside, negating any weight savings. And possible ending up heavier than a FWC would be.

I like that the weight of a FWC rides on the bottom of the bed, as opposed to sitting on the bed rails. Think standing on a bike versus sitting on the seat, better COG.

I think a tailgate is a great thing and I will miss it when I put the camper on.

It takes a long time to get a topper (and so I assume a Flip-Pac would be similar) water and dust tight. I would think that you would want to put the Flip-Pac on and leave it on. The FWC would be more easily removable IMO.

A FWC will be easier to grab lunch in.

Those are some of my thoughts. Hope it helps.

[homemade]

I've got a full size Nissan Titan with a big V8. Right now, we have an FRP Flippac and are now looking into a FWC. After 4-5 years of use, we're tired of pulling everything out every night when we stop. It's great for what it is but we're looking for more convenience. I'd be concerned about the weight of a FWC, as light as it is, for your truck. I'd be sure to talk to someone who has on one on a truck with your engine before deciding.


I’m not sure there would be much difference between a FWC and your FP regarding “pulling everything out every night when we stop”. With my “Hawk” size camper that has always been the case too. The available space in the truck bed is the same (actually less because of loss of space due to the camper in the bed) with the slide in camper than you have with the FP. Our camper has always been stuffed with duffle bags, inflatable boat/motor/gear, sleeping bags, backpacks and other camping stuff that has to come out and go into the cab of the truck. Most everything you put in your truck bed now would just be on the floor and seats of the FWC and have to be taken out just the same to use it. Unless you go with nothing more than the camper and a couple duffle bags of cloths it would likely be pretty much the same routine.

[Riz]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/rizart/IMG_0125.jpg
I've got the same truck, with a FWC Ranger (long bed camper on a short bed truck). I've got air bags to help out. Yes, it does push the limits a bit. It's not real fast or powerful, but it gets me where I'm going and I get damn good gas mileage too. These small trucks and the 4 cylinder engine can really take some abuse! I do most of my camping in the winter, so this was the best option for me.

[Shruk]

I’m not sure there would be much difference between a FWC and your FP regarding “pulling everything out every night when we stop”. With my “Hawk” size camper that has always been the case too. The available space in the truck bed is the same (actually less because of loss of space due to the camper in the bed) with the slide in camper than you have with the FP. Our camper has always been stuffed with duffle bags, inflatable boat/motor/gear, sleeping bags, backpacks and other camping stuff that has to come out and go into the cab of the truck. Most everything you put in your truck bed now would just be on the floor and seats of the FWC and have to be taken out just the same to use it. Unless you go with nothing more than the camper and a couple duffle bags of cloths it would likely be pretty much the same routine.

Thanks for the comments. Pulling out the fun stuff is fairly easy. It's the cooler(s), stove, propane (or white gas), camp kitchen, etc. and hooking it all up that gets tiring and keeps us home on occasion. We're looking forward to being able to toss the clothes in the back, loading the fridge, and getting on the road for quick weekends away.

[homemade]

Thanks for the comments. Pulling out the fun stuff is fairly easy. It's the cooler(s), stove, propane (or white gas), camp kitchen, etc. and hooking it all up that gets tiring and keeps us home on occasion. We're looking forward to being able to toss the clothes in the back, loading the fridge, and getting on the road for quick weekends away.

It might not be too hard to fab up some modules with cook top-sink (usually available on eBay), a vented-to-outside propane tank box and a fridge or edgestar/engle. Of course you know what is best for you, I just think you have a great setup.

I came close to buying a new FWC when I built my camper, I’m really glad I didn’t buy one. Mine has been fun but I find that I don’t like the inconveniences, the rear visibility issues and the bulkiness, plus for general use I would like a truck bed topper so a FP type camper would work better for me.

Did you buy the FP new? If so did it come with the side windows or did you have to pay extra for them? Did you have a choice of side window size (I really like having good passenger side visibility while driving)?

If I build a flip truck topper I plan on the flip to the back which will provide a automatic awning. Plus I can use simple gas struts instead of something like the torsion bar which is individually engineered, expensive and tends to eventually fail.

[TACODOC]

The whole rain cover issue is a big reason the Flip-Pac does not appeal to me.

And for the weight issue. It seems to me that most people who buy a flip pac end up building a lot of heavy furniture inside, negating any weight savings. And possible ending up heavier than a FWC would be.

A FWC will be easier to grab lunch in.



IMHO, the "rain cover issue" gets a bad rap. It's not that hard to put on (you tie on the front and "flip" it on when you open the FP so it's ridiculously easy once you know the trick) and the cover is very well made and quite waterproof - go the extra step like I did and treat it with NikWax and it's bomb proof in coastal PNW rain.

The FP shell weighs 290 lbs per AT, and as for "heavy furniture inside", my whole insert can be put in and taken out by hand, by myself. The whole FP with insert, fridge, air, and power pack weighs less than 600 lbs. Add consumables and clothes and I'm still pretty light.

As for grabbing lunch, all I have to do is open the swingout and tailgate, open the fridge and voila! Tailgate lunch. Hot lunch takes me a whole 3 minutes to deploy my Snow Peak plate burner or Jet Boil. And, in inclement weather I can cook/eat inside just like those guys with FWC's. :)
http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g230/devildoc25/100_3266.jpg

My .02, YMMV ;)

[AUTO360]

Wow, so many good comments. I think someone said it takes a couple hours to load the FWC? Why so long? I had a Lance camper some years ago and it didn't take anywhere near even an hour.
I would only be buying a shell of a FWC or All Terrain camper. So, whatever I would put inside would be the same as what I would do with a Flip Pac.
I could put my 4x4 utility quad in the back to simulate weight...it weighs over 600lbs easy though it wouldn't give me the wind resistance that a FWC would.
I still like the door better...and maybe having a screen door...than the tail gate set up. True, a tailgate comes in handy but normally I will have a small light weight trailer with my motorcycle or quad on it and it has a shelf of sorts.
Interesting about the difference of COG. FP rides on bed rails-FWC rides in bed.
FWC looks a bit wider but I wouldn't be doing any hard trails.
TACODOC- I hear what your saying but after my share of camping and the rain...well, I don't want to deal with a seperate rain cover. Its one thing when I'm just tenting it, but if I spend $1000's of dollars, I'd rather just have it work in the rain as it is without extra stuff.
Hmm, I think my last comment just confirmed my decision.....
TACODOC- Your quote by RW Emerson is really very good
Matt

[Shruk]

I've been tempted to do a build up similar to TacoDoc. I'll being doing a minor build to add convenience and then will need to figure out if I'm going to go all the way with power in the bed or put that money towards the FWC. AT's combo fridge/stove slide has piqued my interest. I'd need to build a bed floor to compensate for the wheel wells. I'm still a long ways from having the cash for the FWC so I have plenty of time to explore options. I cant wait to go to my first meet to see some of your rigs and get ideas.

[WASURF63]

IMHO, the "rain cover issue" gets a bad rap. It's not that hard to put on (you tie on the front and "flip" it on when you open the FP so it's ridiculously easy once you know the trick) and the cover is very well made and quite waterproof - go the extra step like I did and treat it with NikWax and it's bomb proof in coastal PNW rain.

The FP shell weighs 290 lbs per AT, and as for "heavy furniture inside", my whole insert can be put in and taken out by hand, by myself. The whole FP with insert, fridge, air, and power pack weighs less than 600 lbs. Add consumables and clothes and I'm still pretty light.

As for grabbing lunch, all I have to do is open the swingout and tailgate, open the fridge and voila! Tailgate lunch. Hot lunch takes me a whole 3 minutes to deploy my Snow Peak plate burner or Jet Boil. And, in inclement weather I can cook/eat inside just like those guys with FWC's. :)

My .02, YMMV ;)

I'm in total agreement with these statements as well, and I use my ATFP in the rain ALOT; a couple extra minutes at most to attach the rainfly. I beefed my rainfly up with NikWax too.
I can also disassemble my entire interior set up solo, by removing two bolts and two turn buckles. I never have to remove extra gear to the cab or ground to use the ATFP. It all has its assigned storage space until needed. It does help having a 6' bed.

I think FWC makes an excellent product and strongly considered one of thier campers before choosing the ATFP.:)

A deciding factor for me was the inside height ( FP= 7'1", FWC= 6'4"). At 6'1" I prefer having the extra foot of headroom vs a couple inches.
Another factor was weight of a fully optioned camper ( FWC 660-690lbs base wt + options wt?) My total ATFP weight with all added options/furniture is < 600lbs also. I already had the OME 886/Dakar HD setup on my Tacoma so I didn't require any additional weight carrying upgrades either.
I also don't have any place to store a removed camper, and after owning a full sized camper years ago, I didn't want to have a daily driver with camper jacks hanging off the sides.
Price including extra options I chose from AT and the $$$ I spent on materials to custom build my interior came in at a little over $5000.
For what I wanted in a new FWC I was looking at over twice that much.

To the OP: I chose the ATFP for all my own intended uses (terrain traveled and weather exposure, etc) and what I could afford, as did other FP owners on here. There are several kool camper choices available these days. You'll figure out what is best for your needs (and wallet of course). :victory:

[slowtwitch]

Seems like there'd be a market for a middle ground item. Something that looks like a fiberlass topper, that has a roof that extends up with sides like a FWC or maybe even hard side.

Anyone seen such a deal?

For me. I'd just as soon either use a regular tent, or sleep in a regular topper on a platform. Wouldn't want to be up on top of the rig in foul weather and high desert winds. I like to think I left my Nikwax/seamseal days behind me. After owning a Westfalia and loving it, I can't say enough about being able to stay inside the vehicle if need be. I'm leaning FWC, but they are $$, gotta store them, etc.
An extendable hard top topper would be a great place to start for making one's own diy FWC.

st

[Shruk]

Seems like there'd be a market for a middle ground item. Something that looks like a fiberlass topper, that has a roof that extends up with sides like a FWC or maybe even hard side.

Anyone seen such a deal?

For me. I'd just as soon either use a regular tent, or sleep in a regular topper on a platform. Wouldn't want to be up on top of the rig in foul weather and high desert winds. I like to think I left my Nikwax/seamseal days behind me. After owning a Westfalia and loving it, I can't say enough about being able to stay inside the vehicle if need be. I'm leaning FWC, but they are $$, gotta store them, etc.
An extendable hard top topper would be a great place to start for making one's own diy FWC.

st

A shell model FWC is pretty similar to what you're suggesting. It's not a topper but it is a DIY FWC and it's not a whole lot more $ than a Flippac. It is definitely a middle ground option.

[O2Bob]

It really depends on where you want to camp or how far off the beaten path you want to go. What kind of weather extremes will you encounter? I have been a Toyota off-roader for over 20 years. The mini-truck is one of the toughest vehicles out there, I wouldn't worry about it. The 2.7 four banger is almost legendary. If you set up the truck right, I would worry more about the truck camper surviving. The flip-pac not so much. I personally would go truck camper with the ultra light theme. The problem with a popup truck camper is it's to easy adding extra weight. Not so much for the truck but stress on the camper frame. I have destroyed a few but Colorado is very hard on campers.

The camper will always give you much more protection from the elements and be much more versatile. Just do yourself a favor and really weigh everything you put in or on it. Take only what you need and nothing else and unlike myself, put nothing on the roof, nothing. Light and fast is always best but a little comfort goes a long way. Hope this helps......

[O2Bob]

Do you mean something like this? Has a 5ft interior on my Dodge and is built like a high quality boat with all stainless steel parts. Weighs around 350lbs (full size truck)

[AUTO360]

02Bob,
Well, I know for sure that I would want something to stand up in, in response to your 2nd post with photos.

[AUTO360]

Wasurf63 and Tacodoc,
I totally respect what your saying that putting the rain cover on is not hard, I guess its the fact that it has to be done is whats bothering me. Its just one of those things that I don't have good reason for or can't really explain. I mean, your right, its easy so why should it bother me? Anyway...LOL
I was thinking, what if I pull into a Rest Area in a rain storm and want to get in the camper. Well, nobody says that you have to raise the top, on either model. Yeah, I guess I'm just giving excuses :)

[Frostymug]

I believe AT is working on a waterproof replacement tent for the FlipPac. I have a FlipPac on order and will likely purchase the upgraded AT tent when its available.

Cliff

[WASURF63]

Wasurf63 and Tacodoc,
I totally respect what your saying that putting the rain cover on is not hard, I guess its the fact that it has to be done is whats bothering me. Its just one of those things that I don't have good reason for or can't really explain. I mean, your right, its easy so why should it bother me? Anyway...LOL
I was thinking, what if I pull into a Rest Area in a rain storm and want to get in the camper. Well, nobody says that you have to raise the top, on either model. Yeah, I guess I'm just giving excuses :)

No worries. I'm sure you'll figure it out. You can't go wrong with either the FWC or the FP.
If you're not in a huge hurry AT should eventually have the same waterproof tent material that's used in thier JK Habitat available for the ATFP.
Take a trip over to Prescott and check 'em out if you've got some time.
BTW, a suspension upgrade would be highly suggested for these camper applications if you've not already done so. :beer:

[AUTO360]

I live in Tucson..parents live in Prescott so I will be checking the AT place out when I go up there.
I thought of heavier springs but I may check airbags first for those times I have no camper/shell on the truck.

[O2Bob]

The problem with air bags in an off road situation is they don't have enough travel and will tear. Ask me how I know.... A quality suspension like one from Alcan Spring would be the ticket plush ride and load capacity. Oh, and lifetime warranty.

[slowtwitch]

Do you mean something like this? Has a 5ft interior on my Dodge and is built like a high quality boat with all stainless steel parts. Weighs around 350lbs (full size truck)


Yeah, looks like a good starting point. I was thinking cab level, then extending up, or one end raising up ala Westfalia.

st

[Shruk]

Well this thread inspired me to stop typing and get off the couch. I have some old lumber from an old project so I built the frame of a box/bed for the front part of my truck bed. :box: It fits perfectly between the bed rails and between it and the Flippac base, it will make a perfect 24" x 72" bed for one of my daughters. I've got mom working on some 5" thick foam cushions to top it off.

It's a bit of a hack job but I'll skin it next weekend and pick up some hinges and some carpet to make it look better. Once all the frame is hidden it should look pretty good. I'll start a thread for my own build up once I have a complete set of pics for this first part of the project.

[Overland Hadley]

Wasurf63 and Tacodoc,
I totally respect what your saying that putting the rain cover on is not hard, I guess its the fact that it has to be done is whats bothering me. Its just one of those things that I don't have good reason for or can't really explain. I mean, your right, its easy so why should it bother me? Anyway...LOL

x2

No good reason to need a separate rain cover. How many RTT's do we see that need to be set up with a rain cover?

What would worry me is the sunny evening when it is not supposed to rain, so you set it up without the rain cover. Then in the night it starts to rain. What now? Remove stuff so you can close it up and reopen it with the rain fly attached? No thanks. (IMO)

[18seeds]

. Thats about 100lbs more than the Flip Pac.

With a slide in you remove the tailgate so you probably gain 30-40 lbs right there.

That being said with your truck i would go with a FP. A slide in is going to add height and more wind resistance. The lil 4 banger is going to be working hard.

[Overland Hadley]

The problem with air bags in an off road situation is they don't have enough travel and will tear. Ask me how I know...

I now highly recommend Timbrens.

[TACODOC]

What would worry me is the sunny evening when it is not supposed to rain, so you set it up without the rain cover. Then in the night it starts to rain. What now? Remove stuff so you can close it up and reopen it with the rain fly attached? No thanks. (IMO)

BTDT. Got to bed late on a cold and clear starry night. Woke to rain. Bailed out, put the cover on (yes, it can be done without flipping shut) in the pouring rain and went back to bed.

All part of the adventure ;)