WANTED; starting the search for "MY" '97-01 G320

[mk216v]

Long story short, an early W463 ('97-01 G320) is going to be the better fit for me to build an overlander (and daily driver most likely) out of. I plan to keep this G for many many years (eventually make a G300DT out of it) so it has to be "the" one.

Here's what I'll be looking for;

-'97-01 G320

-Clean, no rust, prefer no accidents, prefer no mods

-Low mileage preferred(but higher mileage is ok IF has full maint records as below)

-Maintenance records/history

-Black interior

-Prefer Tectite Grey exterior (as shown below). Would like to stay away from dark colors if possible, but I understand if black is the most common on preMBUSA W463's.

-Prefer west coast vehicle

http://www.luxeauto.com/pics/inv/6122/6122-0001.jpg

Sadly, I JUST missed this one which sold a week ago. If anyone can coerce the new owner to sell it to me, $ in it for you. :D
http://www.luxeauto.com/inventory_detail.cfm?Invid=1304


If you see anything, please help a G lover out and PM me a link or info.

Thank you!!!!!
Best regards,
Jeremy
'80 300GD 4spd

[mk216v]

Still searching, decided on a '97-99 G320.

[otiswesty]

Jeremy,
How did you decide on 97-99?
The late 463's are highly managed electronically. Read some stories about dealing with electrical gremlins on these vehicles. The G320 you are drooling over just got billed $7K for CEL issues. Pulling off a diesel conversion on one of these is going to be very difficult. Your best bet would be to find an early 463 that is rust free and in nice condition. Basically a 300GE or 463 300GD. The fit and finish is considered the best with respect to interior build quality. The only real advantage of a late model 463 (preMBUSA) is the transfer case shifter. That's about it. A 2002-2003 G500 will be your best bang for the buck and allow bigger tires without compromising available power. There is no advantage to the earlier models with respect to fuel economy unless you go diesel. I have said it before, the G500 after 2001 in North America has good parts and service support through the dealer network, and that fact alone dramatically effects repair times. I drove a brand new G550 in Europe for a few weeks, and it had as many small issues as my 2002 G500 with 57K miles on it, except that it costs $80K more. So while the newest trucks are great and lower mileage, I wouldn't recommend a newer 2004+ unless your budget allowed it.

I have nothing against the Europa trucks they are a great value when they are priced competitively. I feel fortunate to have a G500, even if it is considered one of the "bad" ones (2002). If you want that G320 because it is the last of the V6 models in superb condition, then you should get it, but I don't think you should assume that it could be even better with a diesel transplant in the future. The sweet red truck you have now is all the nicer due to its original condition.

Now if you ask me what is the best Gwagen, I would give a little pause. While I like the power and all wheel drive that the makes the G500 excel in winter mountain driving, I really yearn for the mechanical simplicity of the 460 series. I would not take a 463 or later 461 deep into the bush out of the US without a diagnostic program like Star Diag set up for that appropriate model. Read Tom Sheppard's account of being in limp home mode from Algeria all the way back to Munich. That was in a post-1996 461 that looks to all intents like a 460 but with a complex management and monitoring system that adds little to the 5 cyl 290 td motor pushing it around. I say go all mechanical or go all the way and get yourself a computer for your tool box.

If you want a description of my version of a perfect 460 I'll give it. For a 463 version I will just attach a pic.

[Thor]

Jeremy,
How did you decide on 97-99?
The late 463's are highly managed electronically. Read some stories about dealing with electrical gremlins on these vehicles. The G320 you are drooling over just got billed $7K for CEL issues. Pulling off a diesel conversion on one of these is going to be very difficult. Your best bet would be to find an early 463 that is rust free and in nice condition. Basically a 300GE or 463 300GD. The fit and finish is considered the best with respect to interior build quality. The only real advantage of a late model 463 (preMBUSA) is the transfer case shifter. That's about it. A 2002-2003 G500 will be your best bang for the buck and allow bigger tires without compromising available power. There is no advantage to the earlier models with respect to fuel economy unless you go diesel. I have said it before, the G500 after 2001 in North America has good parts and service support through the dealer network, and that fact alone dramatically effects repair times. I drove a brand new G550 in Europe for a few weeks, and it had as many small issues as my 2002 G500 with 57K miles on it, except that it costs $80K more. So while the newest trucks are great and lower mileage, I wouldn't recommend a newer 2004+ unless your budget allowed it.

I have nothing against the Europa trucks they are a great value when they are priced competitively. I feel fortunate to have a G500, even if it is considered one of the "bad" ones (2002). If you want that G320 because it is the last of the V6 models in superb condition, then you should get it, but I don't think you should assume that it could be even better with a diesel transplant in the future. The sweet red truck you have now is all the nicer due to its original condition.

Now if you ask me what is the best Gwagen, I would give a little pause. While I like the power and all wheel drive that the makes the G500 excel in winter mountain driving, I really yearn for the mechanical simplicity of the 460 series. I would not take a 463 or later 461 deep into the bush out of the US without a diagnostic program like Star Diag set up for that appropriate model. Read Tom Sheppard's account of being in limp home mode from Algeria all the way back to Munich. That was in a post-1996 461 that looks to all intents like a 460 but with a complex management and monitoring system that adds little to the 5 cyl 290 td motor pushing it around. I say go all mechanical or go all the way and get yourself a computer for your tool box.

If you want a description of my version of a perfect 460 I'll give it. For a 463 version I will just attach a pic.

I'd be interested in your perfect 460 ideas, perhaps a new thread to show everyone and help everyone, or PM if not ready for prime time. This would be a nice favor for me. Thank you in advance.

[mk216v]

Jeremy,
How did you decide on 97-99?
The late 463's are highly managed electronically. Read some stories about dealing with electrical gremlins on these vehicles. The G320 you are drooling over just got billed $7K for CEL issues. Pulling off a diesel conversion on one of these is going to be very difficult. Your best bet would be to find an early 463 that is rust free and in nice condition. Basically a 300GE or 463 300GD. The fit and finish is considered the best with respect to interior build quality. The only real advantage of a late model 463 (preMBUSA) is the transfer case shifter. That's about it. A 2002-2003 G500 will be your best bang for the buck and allow bigger tires without compromising available power. There is no advantage to the earlier models with respect to fuel economy unless you go diesel. I have said it before, the G500 after 2001 in North America has good parts and service support through the dealer network, and that fact alone dramatically effects repair times. I drove a brand new G550 in Europe for a few weeks, and it had as many small issues as my 2002 G500 with 57K miles on it, except that it costs $80K more. So while the newest trucks are great and lower mileage, I wouldn't recommend a newer 2004+ unless your budget allowed it.

I have nothing against the Europa trucks they are a great value when they are priced competitively. I feel fortunate to have a G500, even if it is considered one of the "bad" ones (2002). If you want that G320 because it is the last of the V6 models in superb condition, then you should get it, but I don't think you should assume that it could be even better with a diesel transplant in the future. The sweet red truck you have now is all the nicer due to its original condition.

Now if you ask me what is the best Gwagen, I would give a little pause. While I like the power and all wheel drive that the makes the G500 excel in winter mountain driving, I really yearn for the mechanical simplicity of the 460 series. I would not take a 463 or later 461 deep into the bush out of the US without a diagnostic program like Star Diag set up for that appropriate model. Read Tom Sheppard's account of being in limp home mode from Algeria all the way back to Munich. That was in a post-1996 461 that looks to all intents like a 460 but with a complex management and monitoring system that adds little to the 5 cyl 290 td motor pushing it around. I say go all mechanical or go all the way and get yourself a computer for your tool box.

If you want a description of my version of a perfect 460 I'll give it. For a 463 version I will just attach a pic.

Hey Eric,

The M112 V6 of the '97-99 is a great engine IMHO--better than the M103 I-6. I also really like the look of the preMBUSA(but "late" W463) gauge cluster and early/late rocker switches(same as in late W460). Those are very clean/classic MB to me. The MBUSA cluster/switches are too "Americanized" for my tastes. Plus, look how many bitchin' switches you can get for the preMBUSA rigs (winch, working lights, blah blah). :sombrero:

It seems most of the veteran G owners have "upgraded" from the W460 to the W463 due to being more comfortable at freeway speeds, etc....so I'm trying to learn from you all in building one G one time (vs two G's separate times).

Please correct me if I'm wrong(on any of this) but the preMBUSA W463's have less elec's than the '02+ MBUSA rigs, and of the preMBUSA's, the 300GE/G300 have less elec's than the G320. From some of the info I had found so far;
http://www.pointedthree.com/disc/forums/showthread.php?tid=17330&posts=7&highlight=300GE&highlightmode=1#M180119

http://www.clubgwagen.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=1795&hilit=300ge

Yes, I'm aware the previous G320 owner had racked up a $7k bill at a certain MBZ independent(same one my W460 was taken to) but this doesn't equate to unreliability to me (I say that because this shop seems to really push some expensive repairs on these rigs--my rig's $12k heater box invoice is a prime example).

Regarding a diesel swap, the euro 300GDT came with the 606A overseas, and there was no immobilizer in '96-00 I'm aware of, so would be some work yes, but shouldn't be anything like a CDi swap. ;)

I think finding any preMBUSA W463 that's clean and low mileage is going to be difficult, wouldn't you agree?

Can you educate me on the late W463 preMBUSA t-case shifter?

My biggest qualms with the early MBUSA rigs are; "Americanized"(IMHO) gauge cluster and switches, even more electronics. The pluses to them are availability and cost for what you get(newer vehicle, usually lower miles, V8, etc).

Understood that the G320 MPG may be similar to an MBUSA G500 depending on how heavy your foot is. Same goes with the VW Treg VR6/V8's.

How couldn't a 300GDT trump a G320 in regards to MPG and torque? Swap costs aside, the 606A seems like the engine that would be the best mix of torque and MPG without a lot of elec's, no?

Thanks for the kind words on my W460. Let me run my pro/con thoughts by you;

W460 pros;
-Already have one
-Simple to work on as no elec's
-Lower cost initially (kinda) ;)

Cons;
-Part time 4WD (not as safe as full time 4WD)
-Manual tranny(not as easy to upgrade engine like it is with an auto, as many more auto boxes available vs manual), no hill-hold like with G auto (think overlanding)
-Will have to galvanize/rustproof/repaint to last tens of years
-Rear seat folds as one unit

(PreMBUSA) W463 pros;
-Still fairly simple (compared to MBUSA rigs which have more elec's)
-More aesthetically pleasing cluster, newer switches, nicer steering wheel on ’96-01's
-More comfortable (quieter on road, heated seats, easier to achieve freeway speeds out of the box)
-Safer w/ full time 4WD
-Ability to split fold rear seat—either use 65 or 35 (good for overlanding)
-Less rust potential

Cons;
-Could be more expensive initially depending
-More difficult to find

Of those, the biggest pro's for the W463 over the W460 to me are;
-More comfortable (quieter on road, heated seats, easier to achieve freeway speeds out of the box)
-Safer w/ full time 4WD
-Ability to split fold rear seat—either use 65 or 35 (good for overlanding)
-Less rust potential

I'd REALLY appreciate your thoughts Eric. Feel free to PM or email me if that works better for you.

Best,
Jeremy

PS--I'd love to hear your ultimate W460, then I'll share mine. :)

[MatthewThompson]

What makes a part time 4WD vehicle less safe than a full time 4WD vehicle?

[otiswesty]

What makes a part time 4WD vehicle less safe than a full time 4WD vehicle?

AWD with an open center diff is better on snow and ice at highway speeds than 2wd or 4wd. The radius of a turn differs between front and rear wheels, this can cause the car to break loose if the front and rear are locked together like in a true 4wd; 2wd is probably safer on icey highways compared to 4wd, but 4wd is great for getting out of the ditch.

The issue with the different 463 models is difficult. They are all really nice cars, the V6 G320 among the nicest. I have a preference for the 463-249 largely because of the frustration I had with extended duration of repairs on my 300GD, a secondary effect of owning a grey market vehicle. That said, I would rather have almost any model 463 before I would buy some of the other imported SUV's I have test driven (Asian or European). I like the T-case shifter due to my distrust of electrical switches. I really like the 460/early 461 hydraulic pull knobs for the lockers, I mean how cool is that.
But sometimes you just have to have faith in the electrical componentry and that is why I said what I did about going all the way from a tech standpoint.

I think my perfect 460 would be a custom built 2850 mm 2 door open top with half doors and folding windsheild, F&R lockers, extended filler neck with saddle tanks, n/a om606 motor vs om606a (not decided) with a stock 4spd auto box, regeared R&P for 33" tires on 16" Hutch rims, 1 1/2" lift, fender flares, upgraded front disc brakes, split rear bumper with built in fog and aux rear backup light, towpin front Canada style bullbar and bumper and side load rings. Add heated Recaro seats in square weave "black" cloth, forward folding driver's seat and lockable storage box passenger seat, 2 rear forward facing seats replaceable by side mounted jumpseats, jumpseats in the far rear, wood floor with load rails, rubber 460 mats as seen on almost all exposed metal with rear floor overlay mat. Interior center console with programmable Webasto heater, manual crank drivers window, power passenger window. Tan exterior color in a matte or eggshell finish with light brown or olive soft top, walk-on hood, stock roofrack for soft top, Schmude hardtop for winter with rear wiper, rear swing away spare and single Nato can holder, heated side view 460 mirrors.

A bit jumbled and I'm sure I forgot a few things, but that's the gist of it. :coffee:

[zimm]

some things dont add to me...

you go diesel from the get go if you want diesel. the ROI isnt there unless youre a delivery truck driver.

....keeping that in mind, if you gotta do it, do it when the gasser is blown..

....keeping that in mind, you'll want the cheapest 463 you can get..and the simplest.

seems to me that would be a high mileage m104 3.2.

or, just rip the entire drivetrain to the drive shafts out of a well worn 460 and replace it with mb rebuilt parts...



but i think the best thing to do, is sell what you have, save money, and strike fast when a nice diesel rears its head.

[mk216v]

What makes a part time 4WD vehicle less safe than a full time 4WD vehicle?

You've probably already seen Harald's info, but if not;

http://rubicon-trail.com/4WD101/4WD-AWD-autoAWD.html

Just a bit more stability/safety from full time 4WD vs part time 4WD IMHO.

[mk216v]

AWD with an open center diff is better on snow and ice at highway speeds than 2wd or 4wd. The radius of a turn differs between front and rear wheels, this can cause the car to break loose if the front and rear are locked together like in a true 4wd; 2wd is probably safer on icey highways compared to 4wd, but 4wd is great for getting out of the ditch.

The issue with the different 463 models is difficult. They are all really nice cars, the V6 G320 among the nicest. I have a preference for the 463-249 largely because of the frustration I had with extended duration of repairs on my 300GD, a secondary effect of owning a grey market vehicle. That said, I would rather have almost any model 463 before I would buy some of the other imported SUV's I have test driven (Asian or European). I like the T-case shifter due to my distrust of electrical switches. I really like the 460/early 461 hydraulic pull knobs for the lockers, I mean how cool is that.
But sometimes you just have to have faith in the electrical componentry and that is why I said what I did about going all the way from a tech standpoint.

I think my perfect 460 would be a custom built 2850 mm 2 door open top with half doors and folding windsheild, F&R lockers, extended filler neck with saddle tanks, n/a om606 motor vs om606a (not decided) with a stock 4spd auto box, regeared R&P for 33" tires on 16" Hutch rims, 1 1/2" lift, fender flares, upgraded front disc brakes, split rear bumper with built in fog and aux rear backup light, towpin front Canada style bullbar and bumper and side load rings. Add heated Recaro seats in square weave "black" cloth, forward folding driver's seat and lockable storage box passenger seat, 2 rear forward facing seats replaceable by side mounted jumpseats, jumpseats in the far rear, wood floor with load rails, rubber 460 mats as seen on almost all exposed metal with rear floor overlay mat. Interior center console with programmable Webasto heater, manual crank drivers window, power passenger window. Tan exterior color in a matte or eggshell finish with light brown or olive soft top, walk-on hood, stock roofrack for soft top, Schmude hardtop for winter with rear wiper, rear swing away spare and single Nato can holder, heated side view 460 mirrors.

A bit jumbled and I'm sure I forgot a few things, but that's the gist of it. :coffee:

Oh, I initially misunderstood you about the preMBUSA W463 t-case shifter....you preferring it over electrical button on MBUSA W463. I thought you were saying later preMBUSA W463 had improved t-case shifter over early preMBUSA W463.

Hehe, your perfect W460(amazing BTW) sounds sorta similar to an INCREDIBLE W461 I know of coming to the States....if only I didn't need room for 4 dogs would I be all over it. Someone is going to get the deal of the century on that rig.
You still have that recent red Kastenwagen in your head I can tell. :)

Thoughts on manual vs auto for overlanding Eric?

[mk216v]

some things dont add to me...

you go diesel from the get go if you want diesel. the ROI isnt there unless youre a delivery truck driver.

....keeping that in mind, if you gotta do it, do it when the gasser is blown..

....keeping that in mind, you'll want the cheapest 463 you can get..and the simplest.

seems to me that would be a high mileage m104 3.2.

or, just rip the entire drivetrain to the drive shafts out of a well worn 460 and replace it with mb rebuilt parts...



but i think the best thing to do, is sell what you have, save money, and strike fast when a nice diesel rears its head.

Few W463 diesel's in the USA is the issue....moreover if they're not turbo'd they're fairly slow and not highway friendly.

Keep in mind 606A into a W463 is more of an ultimate goal than short term reality. I'm just trying to do this once and do it right.

[zimm]

whats your budget for this?

there was a nice low mileage 4 door factory diesel for sale about 6-8 months ago. it was posted on d-90 source. the guy finally called me back and by that time i was "meh" about switching to a diesel. he was asking 30. if i went a digging, i may be able able to find the communication.

[mk216v]

whats your budget for this?

there was a nice low mileage 4 door factory diesel for sale about 6-8 months ago. it was posted on d-90 source. the guy finally called me back and by that time i was "meh" about switching to a diesel. he was asking 30. if i went a digging, i may be able able to find the communication.

I'm willing to pay for a clean rig.

Thanks for thinking about this one. Is it the green '91 300GD?
http://www.exportautosales.com/
http://69.9.37.142/disc/forums/showthread.php?tid=16505

[zimm]

that was it. i couldnt justify the ROI on 30g. at that price point i'd sooner get a g500, toss a couple jerrys on the back and have a much ballsier rig that wouldnt need a r&p change for 35's, and did great on the highway.

buuuut, it looks nice, and if the mileage true, you shouldnt have any maint issues like me.... if thats still up for sale.... its been up for quite some time... he may be more eager to sell.

i'd just make an offer you can live with, and remind him once a week.

[mk216v]

that was it. i couldnt justify the ROI on 30g. at that price point i'd sooner get a g500, toss a couple jerrys on the back and have a much ballsier rig that wouldnt need a r&p change for 35's, and did great on the highway.

buuuut, it looks nice, and if the mileage true, you shouldnt have any maint issues like me.... if thats still up for sale.... its been up for quite some time... he may be more eager to sell.

i'd just make an offer you can live with, and remind him once a week.

Bit rich for me even though it is a W463 300GD. I need a W463 with more pep outta the box.

[4x4abc]

Jeremy,

stop horsing around - get yourself an '02+ G500. You'll never look back.

[mk216v]

Heck, I'm interested in looking at any preMBUSA W463 (300GE/G300, G320, G500) as they're darn hard to find.



Jeremy,

stop horsing around - get yourself an '02+ G500. You'll never look back.

http://www.bestpicturegallery.com/horse-picture-brazil-a-velhaca-Eduardo-Amorim-horse-best-picture-gallery.jpg

Hehe, I appreciate your wisdom kind Harald.

I may end up with one as I have a feeling I'll be searching for awhile for a preMBUSA rig, and even if/when I do find one, it could have a gazillion miles, not been taken care of, all sorts of issues, etc. With a '02-03 G500, at least I can be choosier (choosy mom's choose Jif remember :sombrero:) with finding the RIGHT G500.

[zimm]

harald is right. it comes down to broken parts and spending money.


if you buy a pre 2002, you spend money fixing normal wear and tear items just because the damn thing is old... aka zimms 1996..... $$$$

if you buy a 2002-2004, you end up fixing things that MB effed up from being cheap cocksuckers looking to bilk the US market.... $$$$

but with the latter of the two options you get a newer truck thats worth more money and has lots more balls per gallon. better ROI.

unless your looking at crossing the congo the up front premium for a diesel doesnt add up for newbie buyers in the US like us. we have cheap gas, its readily available even in central america, we have vast distances of improved highways to get from rough spot to rough spot, and a 500 will kick an anemic diesels *** on those roads.

that having been said.... if i could find a low mileage LHD toyota 70 series diesel troopy in the US, i'd burn the G for the insurance money! :) (so i do sorta get your desire)

[knorrena]

I too am hunting for a G. Could you elaborate on those things that MB cheaped out on?

[mhiscox]

If you buy a 2002-2004, you end up fixing things that MB effed up from being cheap cocksuckers looking to bilk the US market.... $$$$


I too am hunting for a G. Could you elaborate on those things that MB cheaped out on?

I think the general agreement in automotive circles is that--whether a GWagen, S Class, ML or whatever--Daimler management decided to let the cost-cutters get the upper hand over the engineers on the models that came out in that period. In fact, when I was thinking about buying my '06 S65, an higher-up MB employee I knew said, in essense, "A 2006 should be OK. You wouldn't want one of the earlier ones, but by '06 they'd pretty much gotten their act back together."

[stevegsmith]

ZIMM (meh), dudeski, ROI?!?!?

Really?

Really really, or just sorta kinda ROI?

[mk216v]

harald is right. it comes down to broken parts and spending money.

if you buy a pre 2002, you spend money fixing normal wear and tear items just because the damn thing is old... aka zimms 1996..... $$$$

if you buy a 2002-2004, you end up fixing things that MB effed up from being cheap cocksuckers looking to bilk the US market.... $$$$

but with the latter of the two options you get a newer truck thats worth more money and has lots more balls per gallon. better ROI.

unless your looking at crossing the congo the up front premium for a diesel doesnt add up for newbie buyers in the US like us. we have cheap gas, its readily available even in central america, we have vast distances of improved highways to get from rough spot to rough spot, and a 500 will kick an anemic diesels *** on those roads.

that having been said.... if i could find a low mileage LHD toyota 70 series diesel troopy in the US, i'd burn the G for the insurance money! :) (so i do sorta get your desire)

I hear you on spending money...trying to look at an even playfield in the end;

Option 1; keep my cherry '80 (purchased for a pretty penny), add a 606A swap, maybe also swapping from 4spd manual to auto, eventually restore/repaint it in order to preserve for future. Estimated into it; $50k?

Option 2; keep searching for a nice G320 and drive it as is, probably won't need any paint/bodywork as newer and has had less time to rust. Estimated into it; $35k w/ some needed repairs via a PPI

Option 3; throw in the towel on yearning for a preMBUSA W463, suck it up, deal with the personally-less-pleasing MBUSA cluster/buttons/etc and bit worse MPG from the V8, probably won't need any paint/bodywork as newer and has had less time to rust. Estimated into it; $30k+ w/ maybe some small needed repairs via a PPI

Note this doesn't include any overlanding mods.
In the end, I'm seeing the light some of your are shedding...MBUSA W463 is the more comfortable, prevalent, potentially less costly option of all of them, although it does have some problem areas like with any vehicle. Hopefully they'd have been taken care of by the previous owner's diligent maintenance.

You're probably asking what my requirements are;
-German
-4wd (still on the fence about pros/cons regarding part-time and full-time...full-time is ultimately "safer" but also eats more fuel)
-at minimum, factory center and rear locker
-aiming for at least 14/18mpg (I know I'm right on the fence with a W463 G500)
-sufficient cargo room w/ seats down (prefer split fold seats)

Dreaming about;
-turbo diesel
-higher than 14/18mpg
-simpler to work on the better

I've come to the conclusion that here in America we get the short end of the stick one way or another and that no vehicle will have everything I want;
-euro 300GDT; not available here, even if it was, see Zimm's 96 $$$ note above
-G280CDi PUR; ultimate but not available here, many electronics(not KISSable), high initial cost
-Touareg2 3.0L TDi; avail here, great torque and MPG, but rear diff lock rare, higher initial used cost, not as much cargo room a G due to curved hatch, damn thing goes into limp mode if it's low on urea(not KISSable)

I really appreciate everyone's thoughts. I'm still keeping my eyes open.

[zimm]

ZIMM (meh), dudeski, ROI?!?!?

Really?

Really really, or just sorta kinda ROI?

absolutely really really. any up front money spent on a diesel over and above what the MPG saves over a gasser, is money not spent on a trip, or not spent on something else much more useful on the rig. if you can have a fully decked out expedition rig for the cost of swapping a late model gasser to a diesel, when all the diesel will do is spare you two jerry cans all the while under-performing compared to the gas motor... whats the point, unless the point is to brag about your diesel?

:) and yes, i did a simple cost analysis where i put the cost of the conversion into my WORST performing conservative fund and used 5000 miles a year for 10 years as a pro rate (quite high for a non dd) when factoring fuel savings.

do it. its amazing what you'll lose! :) the only variable you cant pin down is what fuel will cost in the future so i took $3.50/gal at an increase of 3% a year, which with china up and coming is probably low... but i offset that in my mind with the fact i never keep a rig that long anyway.

ya gotta think this **** out, dude!

[mk216v]

absolutely really really. any up front money spent on a diesel over and above what the MPG saves over a gasser, is money not spent on a trip, or not spent on something else much more useful on the rig. if you can have a fully decked out expedition rig for the cost of swapping a late model gasser to a diesel, when all the diesel will do is spare you two jerry cans all the while under-performing compared to the gas motor... whats the point, unless the point is to brag about your diesel?

:) and yes, i did a simple cost analysis where i put the cost of the conversion into my WORST performing conservative fund and used 5000 miles a year for 10 years as a pro rate (quite high for a non dd) when factoring fuel savings.

do it. its amazing what you'll lose! :) the only variable you cant pin down is what fuel will cost in the future so i took $3.50/gal at an increase of 3% a year, which with china up and coming is probably low... but i offset that in my mind with the fact i never keep a rig that long anyway.

ya gotta think this **** out, dude!

I'm definitely following your thoughts Zimm, even if discussing upgrading my '80 300GD from 617(I-5 NA diesel--for those of you out there not familiar w/ Merc engine codes) to a 606A(I-6 turbo diesel)...the cost of a running donor vehicle is $7k, then all the other bits for the swap (luckily I'd have the swap labor "covered" so will save me upfront money there) and you're looking at over $10k easy in parts most likely.

One point to a TD swap would be better MPG so better for environment(speaking about in part time 4WD W460 vs full time 4WD 463--drivetrain sucks more fuel), glorious turbo diesel whine from the exhaust, recycling a vehicle vs getting rid of it(moot as long as next owner doesn't destroy it).

Could you possibly post your simple analysis here Zimm(if you happened to have saved it)?
What year is your G BTW, '02 G500?

[otiswesty]

Hey Jeremy,
Why not just keep the 300GD factory stock, take an extra day off work for the drive to Utah or Death Valley. That thing would do fine off road. Your main dissatisfaction is probably due to highway driving performance. Buy a VW Golf TDI for the highway and build an adventure rig out of the Gwagen. Tom Sheppard isn't driving his G290 to the market and up the grade north of town for errands.

If you want a do-all rig out of the box, any 460/463 gasser will do, or a 300GDT like Alan's would do the trick if you could find one. Leave the stock tire size though. The pre 2002 463's are more desireable in large part due to the rarity which is associaited with them. The build quality issues are not really as dramatic as they are made out to be. The locker switch position is improved in the latest models (2002+), the dash allows for a 2 Din unit for nav systems, the minor things like glove box latch and interior door handles are replaced with identical units that are used on the current 2011 models. Same for the window regulator, although that problem has yet to be fixed definitively.

I sold my 300GD and saved up some coin over a few months for the G500. If my other car wasn't a meandering Westfalia, I would probably have been satisfied with keeping my 300GD and DDing a faster car. Just saying that there are options that include adjusting your expectations. Have you read Gary Stroh's account of his pan American trip in his naturally aspirated 300GD? If not, you should. There is nothing "wrong" with your Gwagen as it was built from the factory.

[stevegsmith]

absolutely really really. any up front money spent on a diesel over and above what the MPG saves over a gasser, is money not spent on a trip, or not spent on something else much more useful on the rig. if you can have a fully decked out expedition rig for the cost of swapping a late model gasser to a diesel, when all the diesel will do is spare you two jerry cans all the while under-performing compared to the gas motor... whats the point, unless the point is to brag about your diesel?

:) and yes, i did a simple cost analysis where i put the cost of the conversion into my WORST performing conservative fund and used 5000 miles a year for 10 years as a pro rate (quite high for a non dd) when factoring fuel savings.

do it. its amazing what you'll lose! :) the only variable you cant pin down is what fuel will cost in the future so i took $3.50/gal at an increase of 3% a year, which with china up and coming is probably low... but i offset that in my mind with the fact i never keep a rig that long anyway.

ya gotta think this **** out, dude!

I feel a little better. :) Just wanted to make sure you weren't referring to resale.
Fuel economy, future expenses, upgrades, maintenance.....the economics (cost) of owning a vehicle and what you get out of it, I get that part.
Jeremy's signature quote sums it up.

Jeremy dude, I think the answer is for you to have both. Mostly because you're a baller though. :ylsmoke:

[mk216v]

Hey Jeremy,
Why not just keep the 300GD factory stock, take an extra day off work for the drive to Utah or Death Valley. That thing would do fine off road. Your main dissatisfaction is probably due to highway driving performance. Buy a VW Golf TDI for the highway and build an adventure rig out of the Gwagen. Tom Sheppard isn't driving his G290 to the market and up the grade north of town for errands.

If you want a do-all rig out of the box, any 460/463 gasser will do, or a 300GDT like Alan's would do the trick if you could find one. Leave the stock tire size though. The pre 2002 463's are more desireable in large part due to the rarity which is associaited with them. The build quality issues are not really as dramatic as they are made out to be. The locker switch position is improved in the latest models (2002+), the dash allows for a 2 Din unit for nav systems, the minor things like glove box latch and interior door handles are replaced with identical units that are used on the current 2011 models. Same for the window regulator, although that problem has yet to be fixed definitively.

I sold my 300GD and saved up some coin over a few months for the G500. If my other car wasn't a meandering Westfalia, I would probably have been satisfied with keeping my 300GD and DDing a faster car. Just saying that there are options that include adjusting your expectations. Have you read Gary Stroh's account of his pan American trip in his naturally aspirated 300GD? If not, you should. There is nothing "wrong" with your Gwagen as it was built from the factory.

Hehe, you mean leave an entire day early so I can arrive in time. :smiley_drive::sombrero:

You're spot on--my main dissatisfaction is that like with most here, a solid amount of our time to our journey spot involves freeway speeds. Freeway is ok in the 300GD if I'm going downhill but straight is pretty wound out and uphill is a workout for the hazard switch.

While I love VW TDi's, I'm trying to decrease my car count to just 1 vehicle (a G) as I only need 1 rig. Moreover, in trying to build an adventure rig out of a G, I need it to be freeway friendly. I still should talk to Tom Schuey about the 5spd in his 300GD and see if it helps a lot as I know they travel freeway quite a bit. That may be a short term fix, otherwise it's either deal with lots of hazard blinks, swap in a more powerful TD, or move on to a W463.
If you would have kept your white 300GD, would you have just dealt with the slow paced travel?

A G300DT is the rig I really honestly want and feel would be perfect for me (606A, auto, preMBUSA so pleasing cluster/switches) but just can't find one(AFAIK there are less than 5 of them in the USA?) and importing one sounds like a nightmare(time/$).

I do appreciate this info and things to mull over in regards to my expectations.
I haven't seen Gary's account--might you have a link to it? I know the German(?, can't remember their name right now) couple traveled the world in their blue(?) 300GD that is now a piece of history, so it can be done. I'm unfortunately just too jaded anymore with "quicker" vehicles so it's REALLY difficult to dial it back for me.

Thank you again Eric--MUCH appreciated! :smiley_drive:

[mk216v]

I feel a little better. :) Just wanted to make sure you weren't referring to resale.
Fuel economy, future expenses, upgrades, maintenance.....the economics (cost) of owning a vehicle and what you get out of it, I get that part.
Jeremy's signature quote sums it up.

Jeremy dude, I think the answer is for you to have both. Mostly because you're a baller though. :ylsmoke:

Don't think I haven't thought about it Steveo...would be wasteful/redundant spending in some ways but I REALLY hate to think about parting with this Oregon native(since '81) and well cared for 300GD. It's like thinking about selling a family member. :(

[mk216v]

So I had an epiphany early this am while driving on car-less Sunday morning roads, enjoying many sights I don't normally see(duck swimming alone in a pond, people being tugged by their dogs, etc) when I'm driving my Allroad and maintaining a faster speed...my frustration with my 300GD isn't so much that the power-weight ratio is low(although I would like more power so that it's capable of whatever I throw at it terrain-wise) and that the rig is slow, it's that I assume that(sympathize with) drivers behind me are frustrated with me being a hazard in the roadway since I can't keep up with the speeds of modern traffic from a standstill or up hills. So, if I change my perception towards others behind me (perhaps they're not ALL frustrated? ;) ), then I can just sit back, relax, let the G go at it's pace, and enjoy the gorgeous view. :smiley_drive:

[otiswesty]

http://www.eurotruck-importers.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=795

or you can just borrow my copy, anytime.

E

[mk216v]

http://www.eurotruck-importers.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=795

or you can just borrow my copy, anytime.

E

Thanks very much!!

[stevegsmith]

So I had an epiphany early this am while driving on car-less Sunday morning roads, enjoying many sights I don't normally see(duck swimming alone in a pond, people being tugged by their dogs, etc) when I'm driving my Allroad and maintaining a faster speed...my frustration with my 300GD isn't so much that the power-weight ratio is low(although I would like more power so that it's capable of whatever I throw at it terrain-wise) and that the rig is slow, it's that I assume that(sympathize with) drivers behind me are frustrated with me being a hazard in the roadway since I can't keep up with the speeds of modern traffic from a standstill or up hills. So, if I change my perception towards others behind me (perhaps they're not ALL frustrated? ;) ), then I can just sit back, relax, let the G go at it's pace, and enjoy the gorgeous view. :smiley_drive:

You just saved yourself $30,000. Nicely done my friend.

[mk216v]

You just saved yourself $30,000. Nicely done my friend.

ROFLMAO!! You want your cut right? :ylsmoke:

:smiley_drive::smiley_drive::smiley_drive:

Honestly, from talking a bit with Tom Schuey, it sounds like a 5spd manual swap might be a benefit. I hope to ride in his rig someday (hopefully sooner than later) to experience it on the freeway but he says he climbs the highest WA mountain passes in 4th (or 3rd if fully loaded) without issue. I think with my 4spd I'd be in 2nd tootin' along. So perhaps a 5spd is in my future, not a W463 V8. We will see.

[zimm]

I feel a little better. :) Just wanted to make sure you weren't referring to resale.
Fuel economy, future expenses, upgrades, maintenance.....the economics (cost) of owning a vehicle and what you get out of it, I get that part.
Jeremy's signature quote sums it up.

Jeremy dude, I think the answer is for you to have both. Mostly because you're a baller though. :ylsmoke:

resale is just the backside of the up front cost, except the next guy in line hopefully has a used up beater... :)

[mk216v]

resale is just the backside of the up front cost, except the next guy in line hopefully has a used up beater... :)

Not a beater from Steve or I. ;)

[zimm]

Not a beater from Steve or I. ;)

me either. this stupid thing is going to be new again, by the time i sell it.

[mk216v]

me either. this stupid thing is going to be new again, by the time i sell it.

What year/eng do you have Zimm? Link to pics? I don't think I've ever seen it.

[mk216v]

There isn't anything in the way of '91-01 W463's for sale....looks like I may be headed towards an '02-03 G500 afterall. :(

[mk216v]

Still looking...

[zimm]

There isn't anything in the way of '91-01 W463's for sale....looks like I may be headed towards an '02-03 G500 afterall. :(

i wouldnt feel so bad about that. that 2000 g500 was 32g? please. its nice, but youre starting it enter 04 territory with that. myself, i may prefer switches to screens, and shifters to buttons, but an '00 isnt exactly electronic free, it doesnt have factory shop help in the US... its OLDER, and an '04 DOES have allot of advancements.

id happily sacrifice 50k miles on the odo, for all the improvements, age and MBUSA service availability.

with more and more MBUSA's coming on the market and driving down the 'old' rigs value, did you ever think of ditching yours now for the $$$ and just riding it out until you locate a winner?

[mk216v]

i wouldnt feel so bad about that. that 2000 g500 was 32g? please. its nice, but youre starting it enter 04 territory with that. myself, i may prefer switches to screens, and shifters to buttons, but an '00 isnt exactly electronic free, it doesnt have factory shop help in the US... its OLDER, and an '04 DOES have allot of advancements.

id happily sacrifice 50k miles on the odo, for all the improvements, age and MBUSA service availability.

with more and more MBUSA's coming on the market and driving down the 'old' rigs value, did you ever think of ditching yours now for the $$$ and just riding it out until you locate a winner?

$33,500 actually with 156k.
That will get you(me!?) an '03 G500 with half as many miles.
I am there with you mang--switches to screens, shifters to buttons, even manual HVAC to climate control! This is why I prefer the early Europa's.

But you, and many others who have BTDT, make a good case for what you get with an MBUSA W463 (more modules yes, but able to more easily diagnose it...especially when you have access to a powerful tool like the Autologic for diagnosis..hehe!).

I should just stop my fussing about being anti-technology(modules, climate control, etc) and get an MBUSA G500 and be done with it. Go out and enjoy it, and mod it along the way like I want to.

I think the MBUSA rigs will continue to depreciate a bit, esp with gas prices increasing, but I think that clean W460's will always hold some value no? Non-rusty ones with full history are really difficult to find!
All in all, I just want mine to go to a good home. There are a few possible interested parties here in the west (OR, NV, CAN) who I've been speaking with. As long as they love it and enjoy it and take care of it as I have, that's all that matters to me.

Thanks as always for your thoughts Zimm. <beers>

[timmer123]

I'm willing to pay for a clean rig.

Thanks for thinking about this one. Is it the green '91 300GD?
http://www.exportautosales.com/
http://69.9.37.142/disc/forums/showthread.php?tid=16505

I got a quick return call from Export Auto Sales today regarding the 300GD they still have for sale. The asking price was $39,500 US or best offer.

[mk216v]

I got a quick return call from Export Auto Sales today regarding the 300GD they still have for sale. The asking price was $39,500 US or best offer.

Wow, they'll be sitting on that one for awhile I think.