POD: Custom camper - design stage [Archive]

pods8

01-08-2011, 08:15 PM

(This thread will be going parallel path on WTW so for anyone that cruises both you'll see it duplicated.) I've been throwing together thoughts on doing a custom camper as well and have been studying up on the construction method I've been thinking about for a couple months. I've got a fairly good feeling on the concept there and the next step is to get some supplies in and make up some sample pieces.

Parallel path to that I need to get the actual camper designed. Pretty much will need to know about all major attachment points before construction begins. This will also be going on a flatbed. Current thought is for a 7.5' long, 83" wide camper on a short box truck (should only be ~6-7" longer than my hawk as I'll be able to get it closer to the truck cab without a front rack on the flatbed). The profile height will be driven by the final decisions on the cab over, I can make a nice thin over cab profile like FWC/ATC or I can add in a few inches to it to get a 3" storage compartment under the cab over mattress. Trade off of storage verse a sleeker profile.

But I'm getting ahead of myself, the first step here is figuring out a good floor plan. Goal is to accommodate 2 adults, 2 kids. Ideally have room for 2 people to be moving around at a time and seating for the others during that time. The pictures below is what I've thrown together so far:

Stats:
*40" wide dinette (78" long in bed mode)
*the counter top is around 3' long right now (little less than desired but might consider cutting board style pullouts on the dinette side and under the sink for extra space.
*The red block would be a 12V compressor freezer/fridge which would provide extra counter space when closed
*The gray block along the front of the camper taking foot room away from the counter area may go away, its a place holder depending on water tank selection.
*Dinette is setup in two parts so it can form a single bed/couch and half size table as well.

http://i532.photobucket.com/albums/ee329/pods8/Interior1.jpg

http://i532.photobucket.com/albums/ee329/pods8/Interior2.jpg

http://i532.photobucket.com/albums/ee329/pods8/Interior3.jpg

So those are my initial thoughts, hit me with any feedback or suggestions for consideration at this point. Its good to get outside opinions.

huntoon

01-08-2011, 10:01 PM

I love the graphics.

NYCO

01-08-2011, 10:08 PM

rigor mortis? or are they zombies.

pods8

01-08-2011, 10:15 PM

rigor mortis? or are they zombies.

Haha. It was the first 3D model of a person I came across for autocad on the net, its beyond my skills to manipulate them to look less like manikins.

They convey the scale/fit/function of the layout though so other than looking funny I think they get the job done.

SkiFreak

01-08-2011, 10:17 PM

C-3PO and his mates go camping... ;)

Northern Explorer

01-08-2011, 10:30 PM

The door on the side has a lot of advantages in my opinion when it comes to a good interior design.

Something to consider: You should raise the floor under the dinette about 6 inches so you can fit a shower pan.

pods8

01-08-2011, 10:57 PM

Something to consider: You should raise the floor under the dinette about 6 inches so you can fit a shower pan.

My current thought on showering indoors if I was inclined to do so would be to use a rubbermaid tub as a shower pan in the main open area (which is where the exhaust fans would be as well). This would mean I don't have to build in something for an option I likely wouldn't use much (short trips I just baby wipe shower), it keeps the showering away from cushions as much as possible, and allows someone to shower with out disturbing the bed areas.

Overland Hadley

01-09-2011, 12:47 AM

:lurk:

Zemir

01-09-2011, 01:42 AM

I started my design from frame.
I want to use carbon steel frame (rectangle tube 40x20x1.5 and square 20x20x1.5) with powder coating.

pods8

01-09-2011, 05:39 AM

I started my design from frame.
I want to use carbon steel frame (rectangle tube 40x20x1.5 and square 20x20x1.5) with powder coating.

I'll be mostly frameless on this one.

What's is your interior layout going to be?

Zemir

01-10-2011, 10:58 AM

I'll be mostly frameless on this one.

What's is your interior layout going to be?

I designed camper with maximal dimensions according to trafic rules in Russia. And I want to do my interior layout after that.

pods8

01-10-2011, 02:32 PM

Pondering water tank sizing in relation to the internal layout (they'll be low and in the front so it affects the block along the front of the camper). Currently thinking about 15gal (maybe 10) fresh water tank. This would provide plenty of water for weekender trips and there is no need to build in tons of excess holding capacity that is rarely going to be used. To supplement longer trips I'd have areas configured to stow some of those cubical water jugs and when the extra water isn't needed the space can be utilized for other storage.

http://www.usahardwaresupply.com/catalog/images/794610.gif

Thinking about just using typical 20lb propane tanks because they are common/cheap and propane places are used to them. Additional one of those tanks happens to be about the same size as one of the above water jugs so if I build a 2 tank propane compartment I'll have the option to either carry 2 tanks of propane or 1 tank of propane and 1 jug of water. That would actually work out nice because during the cold weather trips when you might want more propane for heating you'll likely be using less water than on the hot weather trips where more water and less propane is desired.

Thinking about having a gray water tank as well with a bypass right to an external drain for areas where going right to ground is okay. Not sure if I want to put in a fixed tank, maybe 10gal or so, or try and do a removable tank of some sort. A fixed tank would make the best use of space but then would require some other bucket or such be carried if I ever needed to ferry the gray water somewhere to drain it.

pods8

01-10-2011, 06:21 PM

It came to my attention there might be some confusion on where I'm coming from on this thread. This is 100% a personal project, this is not a commercial product development. :victory:

eugene

01-10-2011, 09:09 PM

Northern Explorer

01-10-2011, 09:52 PM

Your door looks to be too far back, the axle would be right about where the door frame is which would make the wheel opening halfway in the door.

Why the side door rather than rear door if I might ask?

With a flat bed the door would sit above the level of the wheel well. Check out the Escape Pod (http://www.northstarcampers.com/online-catalog.php?view=item&parentId=15&catId=16&numId=38)for reference.

pods8

01-10-2011, 09:56 PM

Your door looks to be too far back, the axle would be right about where the door frame is which would make the wheel opening halfway in the door.

Why the side door rather than rear door if I might ask?

How would that be an issue? The flatbed (and thus the doorway) is above the tire and protrudes farther than the tire will from the vehicle center line.

Being up on a flatbed I could put the door anywhere. With the side door layout I drew up it allows people to enter and peel off to the left (dinette/lower bed) or right (upper bed) hopefully without disrupting anyone at the sink/stove. That all seemed like a good plan for the multi-person oriented build I'm up to.

I couldn't see how to do a rear door without having one long galley way and splitting the dinette to either side or putting it up front which wouldn't be ideal in terms of weight distribution and having separate areas for the people so they don't have to step over each other.

Also the side door would allow a hitch bike rack carrier to remain undisturbed.

You have a thought I might be over looking?

boblynch

01-11-2011, 12:10 AM

We really like our side door and flatbed setup. It doesn't get nearly as dusty as a rear door and also frees up the rear bumper area for storage. One thing to consider is the location of the exhaust relative to the door. The tail pipe gets very hot. We had relocate our exhaust or it would have been directly under the door. Good luck with the build.

pods8

01-11-2011, 02:13 AM

Marc1

01-11-2011, 03:35 PM

pods8

01-11-2011, 04:51 PM

Nice job of copying the XPCamper lay out.

marc

Is this Marc of XP? If so I'm sorry if you feel I'm ripping you off.

There are going to be some definite similarities at first glance on the surface but some big differences to, which are important to me. Additionally since this is a home build even if I copied it exactly what would it matter, are we not allowed to self manufacture these days? Creative spirits often reproduce many commercial products. That said I feel I'm producing something unique for myself (if I choose to build it).

Alike:
*Passenger side door
*Rear dinette (but XP is smaller)
*Kitchen on driver side front
*Potentially storage under the bed (just like other manufacturers do, not unique to XP).

None of the above is specifically unique to XP, however its not a bad layout either. When dealing with a certain sized box there are only so many ways to lay it out and there will be some overlapping designs.

That said here's some solid differences:
*I only want 7'-6" length
*I want a twin sized bed dinette
*I don't want a shower/bathroom enclosure to the side of the door
*I don't want a basement under the camper
*My outside access will be completely different
*I'll be using propane appliances, not diesel
*I'd be using a cooler style fridge off to the side of the door, not a build in one in the galley
*I want an opening window into the truck cab, XP appeals to have build in storage all across the front.
ETC.

I'm under the impression the XP is of mold construction, if that is the case it wouldn't seemingly be feasible to produce what I want very easily. Additionally you're producing a very high end product that just isn't in my realm. You've got very high end appliance, core material, etc.

If I build this I'm planning to do a basic polystyrene foam board core with some wood, hand wrapped in epoxy and fiberglass. Much more of a budget minded BOM and I think I can produce what I want out of a camper, fully outfitted for maybe 1/4 to 1/3 the price of your shell (all my labor though).

Again I'm sorry if you feel ripped off or threatened but you should really feel good about the partial inspiration. If I really was trying to rip you off, I'd have already tried contacting you to figure out a few little design details that I'm still working through. :) I can tell you've never lost a client in me because your product was always far to high end for my budget/desires.

Marc1

01-11-2011, 05:26 PM

Is this Marc of XP? If so I'm sorry if you feel I'm ripping you off.

There are going to be some definite similarities at first glance on the surface but some big differences to, which are important to me. Additionally since this is a home build even if I copied it exactly what would it matter, are we not allowed to self manufacture these days? Creative spirits often reproduce many commercial products. That said I feel I'm producing something unique for myself (if I choose to build it).

Alike:
*Passenger side door
*Rear dinette (but XP is smaller)
*Kitchen on driver side front
*Potentially storage under the bed (just like other manufacturers do, not unique to XP).

None of the above is specifically unique to XP, however its not a bad layout either. When dealing with a certain sized box there are only so many ways to lay it out and there will be some overlapping designs.

That said here's some solid differences:
*I only want 7'-6" length
*I want a twin sized bed dinette
*I don't want a shower/bathroom enclosure to the side of the door
*I don't want a basement under the camper
*My outside access will be completely different
*I'll be using propane appliances, not diesel
*I'd be using a cooler style fridge off to the side of the door, not a build in one in the galley
*I want an opening window into the truck cab, XP appeals to have build in storage all across the front.
ETC.

I'm under the impression the XP is of mold construction, if that is the case it wouldn't seemingly be feasible to produce what I want very easily. Additionally you're producing a very high end product that just isn't in my realm. You've got very high end appliance, core material, etc.

If I build this I'm planning to do a basic polystyrene foam board core with some wood, hand wrapped in epoxy and fiberglass. Much more of a budget minded BOM and I think I can produce what I want out of a camper, fully outfitted for maybe 1/4 to 1/3 the price of your shell (all my labor though).

Again I'm sorry if you feel ripped off or threatened but you should really feel good about the partial inspiration. If I really was trying to rip you off, I'd have already tried contacting you to figure out a few little design details that I'm still working through. :) I can tell you've never lost a client in me because your product was always far to high end for my budget/desires.

Am not XP Marc. Nice rant though

18seeds

01-11-2011, 05:38 PM

Nice job of copying the XPCamper lay out.

marc

http://www.freedomoffroad.com.au/images/ld750hwsd.jpg

http://www.freedomoffroad.com.au/MC750HSD.php

I guess the XP isn't a copy because the door is on the driver side

pods8

01-11-2011, 06:03 PM

Am not XP Marc. Nice rant though

No need to be snippy (if you are, hard to tell tone). I wasn't trying to rant, just lay out my view of it based on the fact I thought you might have been XP Marc and having negative feelings about this.

Did you have anything constructive to add to the discussion?

cwsqbm

01-11-2011, 06:08 PM

Nice job of copying the XPCamper lay out.

marc

That's being unfair, and uncalled for, but looking at your previous posts hyping the XPCamper and attacking others, not unexpected. I wouldn't call it a copy of the XP camper. It has similarities, but then again it does to the layout used in many Unicat - bed one end, dinette other and cooking in the middle (and a lot like the TC51). I like the XPCamper too, although I think this layout (with a bigger rear dinette, and no bathroom) would suit a family better.

Study the entire RV industry - there's only so many ways to fit stuff in a small space.

Northern Explorer

01-11-2011, 09:07 PM

There are many side entry campers that share this or a very similar layout. From a design perspective it just makes the most sence.

Marc1

01-12-2011, 12:48 AM

No need to be snippy (if you are, hard to tell tone). I wasn't trying to rant, just lay out my view of it based on the fact I thought you might have been XP Marc and having negative feelings about this.

Did you have anything constructive to add to the discussion?

Geeeeez ... everyone is so sensative, I was just making a comment.

pods8

01-12-2011, 01:27 AM

Geeeeez ... everyone is so sensative, I was just making a comment.

So be it man, it came off like I offended you so I was trying to clear the air (thinking you were the other marc). If you are who I now think you are you've seemed leave headed at WTW, we disagreed semantically about that truck bed issue a couple days ago but damned if I know what else if you are actually annoyed by me or whatever. If not stack up to lack of clarity in conversing over the internet.

Anyways just trying to build something for ME here. I pondered some other layouts but what I've posted up is what I think will serve me, the wife, kid 1 and future kid 2 to hopefully let us wander and enjoy. I've viewed numerous resources and pulling info/ideas I like from everything as well as concocting my own. Back to the show!

Engineer Guy

01-12-2011, 02:44 AM

I like your ideas - the 1/2 Table idea is super - and I'm personally very keen on flexibility/modularity. Some of that perspective comes from going to Asia on Biz and seeing how space is 'reused'. The average Tokyo Apt. is ~20' x 20'. They're called 'Rabbit Hutches' in local slang. The Futon serves as Couch and Bed, and a Table w/built-in Wok or Hot Plate then becomes a cooking service for 4 to sit around on the Floor on Cushions, etc..

After looking at everything under the Sun for my future build, I've mentally bookmarked a few ideas. And, yes, RV space utilization falls into certain use patterns because it has to. Only so much space to play with... Camper Manfs. recycle ideas just as surely as Guitarists recycle licks from predecessors.

1. Skip any Oven, and have a 2 Burner Cooktop with one Burner behind the other. This frees up Counter Space. Have the usual Cutting Board inset flush for the Sink. I may use a 2 Burner Propane Cooktop given us for both inside and outside use. I'm very comfy with quick disconnects and/or my piping skills.

A Physics fellow in Germany I visited had papers all over his Meeting Table by necessity. He grabbed a nice piece of Marine Ply with 4 - 1" Rubber Feet on the corners and - voila - an instant 'new' Tabletop surface on top of all the papers that we could exchange papers on.

2. Little flip up locking surfaces and/or built-in slider surfaces - like built-in Cutting Boards - can provide horizontal surface when you need it, and can disappear when you don't. You can always add these tweaks after the core project is done and it's time to get Camping first.

3. Most Water Pumps will pull a decent head. So, you could have a parallel Tank somewhere ~feet away with quick disconnects if the fittings are low on the Tanks, or if there's a dip tube. Water capacity could 'come and go' as Tanks are added or removed. A Grey Water Tank could also come and go vs. a 'straight' out drain... Your Propane Tank flexibility idea is super!

4. My Shower idea is to use a recycled Shower Pan, inset or not. I'll hang the Shower Curtain on 3 sides, as they do around Tubs in the U.K. The bent Tubing will friction/quick disconnect mount, or hinge down, to the Wall, with a supporting hook or two off the Ceiling. Demount the Tubing and the [opaque], bottom-weighted Curtain and you've got free and clear space back. An inset piece of Ply set just inside could cover the Shower Pan to make it Floor space again. My Plumbing will DEFINITELY gravity drain for freeze-proofing.

5. Around a Relative's Hong Kong Luxury Apt., it's standard procedure for all Kitchen and Bath Cabs AND Toilets to change out with the new Owner. Everything mounts securely/invisibly on standardized rails on [Metric] Studs. You can also see some of this modular thinking in IKEA designs. I'm thinking also of using some slick 1/4 turn Mounting Hardware a pal showed me to mount Cabs to Studs, and to make my wiring safely modular, too. A Twist Lok or three would do it. This is done with Trade Show Exhibits all the time. It means you could change the internal config. with Field Camping experience, or as preferences change. If it suits you, you could use prefab Cabs or components. Why build 'knee jerk', fixed configs like Home Kitchens? Rethink the 'assumptions'. I plan to hit our Recycling Center/Habitat For Humanity for many of the basic components, purchased on the very cheap... Besides looking very retro cool, some older Cabs are REALLY built; no OSB malarky to vibrate apart...

I hope to do Plumbing and Wiring in a very few 'Baseboard' chases so that I can get in and change/upgrade Supply Utilities. It's tough to think of everything up front, so why bury everything in Walls? I deployed some of these ideas in our House I'm just finishing. Smaller Camper spaces are 'easier' to work with.

A nice start you've got there...

eugene

01-12-2011, 09:41 PM

I was thinking frame mounted instead of flatbed, like
http://www.allpar.com/photos/campers/1969/chassis-cab.jpg
(first pic I found of one)
If you lower the box some and make fender openings and move the door forward you could lower the whole CG unless you had planned on putting something between the frame and floor, there is a good bit of space between the top of the frame and the top of the tires and some more for flex you'll have a foot or so space. If you try to put things like water tanks that big you'll be heavy pretty quick. So I'd lower the whole thing some, make wheel openings below the kitchen and bed then the door opening could even drop down lower to make entry easier.
I'd try to not have so many tables that fold and swivel and move, it sounds good in theory but after a while you get tired of having to move everything off of one to fold it up to get to something else.

pods8

01-12-2011, 09:52 PM

This won't be a 100% dedicated camper rig, maintain the function of a truck is a requirement.

If I was going to frame mount it I'd be cutting into the cab for a pass through that is for sure.

wannaby

01-13-2011, 12:45 AM

pods8

01-13-2011, 01:27 AM

Was just looking at that floor plan and saw the swing away table and thought why not a rear entry with this design for a slide in camper have the two seats where they are and some kind of a swing up table over to one side if ya wanted to get out. then you could still put something where the original door is ....just a thought.Den

Just to be clear this is going on a flatbed, I don't really have any interest in building a slide in camper. I already have a FWC hawk and if I'm going to take the time/effort to build a new camper I want to reap the benefits of the additional space a flatbed would provide.

The table in my head right now isn't a swing away, it just folds in half (front to back) so one half the dinette can form a width wise bed while the other half is still seats w/ a table. Since this is ideally to accomodate family it would be preferable to be able to get in/out of the camper without disturbing the beds at night and also during meals.

The only rear door thought I had would be with a main galley down the center and single width dinettes on either side (facing front/back). Then shorter 2-2.5' counter tops on either side of the front with a foot pocket partially under them for when the dinettes are turned into single beds. However this creates a lot of through traffic as opposed to the other layout which is why I'm leaning towards that (also allows bike racks on the rear to remain undisturbed, etc.).

pods8

01-13-2011, 02:46 PM

So another thought running through my head is about stealth camping / solo camping with the top down. On my current hawk there have been times I wouldn't have minded being able to access the faucet and stove to make a quick boiled water meal. I'm thinking the top down interior height on this will be in the 50-54" range and potentially a 40" counter height, so that will likely give me access to the sink (as long as I don't have cabinets on the topside coming down and covering it). Also it would give me access to the stove but not enough clearance to actually fire it up. I was curious for the stove if I used a partner stove (or similar) in a recessed box for normal cooking and then I could yank it out in these situations and use it on a short stand on the floor (and also the ability to take it outside).

Are there any combustion differences between the normal indoor propane stoves and something like a partner? Obviously with both some ventilation through the camper is needed.

Northern Explorer

01-13-2011, 03:40 PM

Are there any combustion differences between the normal indoor propane stoves and something like a partner? Obviously with both some ventilation through the camper is needed.

I don't believe there are any combustion differences. My thinking on firing up the stove with the top down is that the smaller the space you have the quicker that area is going to be saturated with carbon monoxide. The smaller the space the more ventilation you will need.

What I would do is cook with the top up and then just lower the top for sleeping when you want to stealth camp.

pods8

01-13-2011, 06:47 PM

I don't believe there are any combustion differences. My thinking on firing up the stove with the top down is that the smaller the space you have the quicker that area is going to be saturated with carbon monoxide. The smaller the space the more ventilation you will need.

What I would do is cook with the top up and then just lower the top for sleeping when you want to stealth camp.

Just gotta crank up the fantastic fans. :sombrero:

I do that currently (top up and then drop it) but one less thing to deal with if I just wanted to make a hot drink during a rest stop or such.

pods8

01-16-2011, 07:37 PM

Did a "rough" model of my truck and the potential camper exterior shell. Pardon the crude shaping and rendering of the images.

Side shot to show the overhang verse windshield. I want a wider bed that a full (48") but going to a queen (60") would really overhang past the window aerodynamics. Right now I could fit a 54" wide mattress but I might be a tad too long still.
http://i532.photobucket.com/albums/ee329/pods8/Truckandcamper1.jpg

Frontal shot:
http://i532.photobucket.com/albums/ee329/pods8/Truckandcamper2.jpg

Angled shot:
http://i532.photobucket.com/albums/ee329/pods8/Truckandcamper3.jpg

Another angled shot with the roof turned off. Door size/style is TBD, I just showed an opening for clarity that is where the door would be.
http://i532.photobucket.com/albums/ee329/pods8/Truckandcamper4.jpg

pods8

01-28-2011, 05:03 PM

Not a ton new in terms of design wise going on for me, I'm just running various ideas through my head trying to refine things. I originally was thinking of just using stock 20lb propane tanks for their availability, familiarity, cost, etc. However I'm giving those clear view fiberglass propane tanks some more thought now, I didn't realize they were translucent at first and just though folks were talking about them for the weight savings only. Which wasn't justifiable for the cost in my mind, however seeing how much propane you have visually is pretty nice.

I got my test supplies in last week and got my first taste of working with epoxy and foam board to make up some core sample pieces, so far so good. Hopefully this weekend I'll get time to layup the fiberglass fabric layers over them to see how I feel about that work. Additionally I'm trying out two different fabric weaves to see how they lay up and each test pieces has a variety of different radius corners. Overall this should give me a good representation of what each fabric is capable of in terms of layup. I can then take that information forward in how the shell is designed.

From there I'll do an interior mockup to see how it really feels spacially, I'll probably utilize cardboard as much as possible to save time/cost/waste.

Shruk

01-28-2011, 05:37 PM

pods8

01-28-2011, 06:07 PM

pods8

01-29-2011, 03:44 PM

We were chattering designs of hardside pop-ups at WTW and one suggestion about doing a multistage popup set go my wheels spinning. Threw this together this morning to mull over, it required 2" more in vertical height to the cabover profile. However it provides an fully hardside design that is enclosed still in any extension position, a 38-40" tall door in the down position and a 10-12" flip up of to add extra vertical height to the door when the top is up. Still have the shorter door height like a FWC/ATC but might be worth living with that. Anyways more to ponder on:

Here's a rendering with the top all down. The door height will be driven by how high the cabover to flatbed is but it would be plenty big enough for ducking into the closed camper:
http://i532.photobucket.com/albums/ee329/pods8/DualPop1.jpg

Then when the top goes up and exposes some more of the lower portion of the camper one could opt to have a shorter section swing up to add extra vertical height to the door. (Note the taller the cabover profile is the more height that can be recovered but I'm trying to limit that as much as possible).
http://i532.photobucket.com/albums/ee329/pods8/DualPop2.jpg

eugene

01-29-2011, 04:47 PM

Seems like most of the camper is behind the real axel, are you making it for one of those extra short bed trucks?

pods8

01-29-2011, 04:53 PM

Seems like most of the camper is behind the real axel, are you making it for one of those extra short bed trucks?

That was my depiction of a 7'-6" long camper on a dodge ram shortbox ~6'-3" bed, the wheel base might be slightly off, I dunno. Should only be about 6" longer than my current FWC hawk which is 6'-8" and sits flush with my bumper (the extra few inches made up will be due to not having a front on the flatbed so the camper will be closer to the cab). Planning for all the heavy stuff (propane, water, fridge, etc.) to be up near the front wall.

Overland Hadley

01-30-2011, 03:19 AM

I originally was thinking of just using stock 20lb propane tanks for their availability, familiarity, cost, etc. However I'm giving those clear view fiberglass propane tanks some more thought now, I didn't realize they were translucent at first and just though folks were talking about them for the weight savings only. Which wasn't justifiable for the cost in my mind, however seeing how much propane you have visually is pretty nice.

I have one of the Ragasco (http://www.lpgastanks.com/) tanks for my camper build. I've been using it this winter with the Wave 3 in my studio. I check the propane level about once a day, it is still interesting to me to see how much fuel the heater is using. In a dark corner it works best to shine a flashlight into the tank to see the level.

When I ordered my tank this autumn they were still offering 10% off to Overland Journal readers.

Boonie Buster

01-30-2011, 08:47 PM

Maybe this is what idea you're going for, but any thoughts on doing the expandable hardsides like carboard box flaps? Whether they be two pieces that accordian out or one piece that flips up.

-Aaron

pods8

01-30-2011, 09:22 PM

Maybe this is what idea you're going for, but any thoughts on doing the expandable hardsides like carboard box flaps? Whether they be two pieces that accordian out or one piece that flips up.

-Aaron

It has crossed my mind (like alaskan campers setup) but there are a few things I don't like about the idea. The camper is open to the elements when its going up/down, also if when you fold the panels in during foul whether in which they may be wet/snowy you then have that laying on your bed/bedding. So I was thinking a soft liner on the outside of some sort would be needed still.

pods8

02-04-2011, 03:08 PM

I made up some test parts that would have about the worst case curves I'd need to deal with I think. The smaller one I went ahead a quickly faired/finished (I'd take a bit more time on a final product but it was good enough to fill in the weave and seams). I was just using a squeegee and noticed it difficult to try and work some of the air bubbles out of the fabric on these parts because it would drag the fabric some and disrupt the inside corners and edge wraps. I think I'll need to pick up a laminating roller and see how well they work for working out air bubbles without dragging the fabric around.

http://i532.photobucket.com/albums/ee329/pods8/Parts1.jpg

http://i532.photobucket.com/albums/ee329/pods8/Parts2.jpg

Shruk

02-04-2011, 08:50 PM

I just ordered a 10# fiberglass/composite propane tank. I got the tall one since I'm more concerned about floor space than height. It'll be much lighter than the 20# steel tank to start, plus 1/2 the propane but plenty for a fairly lengthy trip (cooking only, no heater). I'll let you know what I think of it when it arrives.

It arrived and I was surprised at a few things. It's a two piece design with an overlapping seam in the middle of the tank. It has to be recertified every five years and has a life of 15. I just got back from filling it up with 2.35 gallons of propane. The guy at the propane place was rather amused at being able to see the LPG coming in, the float going up, and the straw. According to the scale, it weighs 19.2 pounds full and about 9.3 pounds empty. It is very light even when full, quite a bit less than a full jerry can. I'm very happy with it thus far.

gerferd21

02-06-2011, 03:35 AM

pods8

02-06-2011, 05:17 AM

Nice idea for a camper. It's obvious you've spent a lot of time on the design. The foam has now piqued my interest; it looks like it could open up a lot of possibilities in the structure. What is it exactly?
Shane

Polystyrene foam board, both Dow and Owens Corning make it. Dow is blue and Owens Corning is pink. There are a variety of density and compression strengths made however availability can be tricky for some of the better versions. The 1" thick boards for those test pieces is Owens Corning Foamular 250 with has a 25psi compression strength. The other foamular lines are 150, 400, 600, 1000 which have 15psi, 40psi, 60psi, and 100psi compression strengths respectively. However the higher strength ones aren't readily available outside of 2" thickness. I'm not even considering the 150. I'll need to use the 250 for any 1" thick pieces in the design but for all the 2" thick stuff I'll be using the 600 (not much of a price upgrade from 250 so I'll take the extra compression strength, however to go to the 100psi stuff its a 4x increase, I'm not sure if there is some manufacturing change to justify that or just availability, either way 60psi compression strength works for the bulk areas and I'll spot reinforce as needed).

To use this foam you have to use epoxy as polyester resin will dissolve it. Its not as good as the higher density polyurethane foams but they are substantially more expensive and so far I think this will likely meet my needs. Some home built airplanes use polystyrene foam like this so with the right design features I think a camper will do just fine. I'm continuing along with test pieces to get a feel for things, comparing how hard it is to peel laminations off the foam, foam with wood strips every so often, etc.

Definitely has possibilities.

teleturns

02-06-2011, 02:19 PM

To use this foam you have to use epoxy as polyester resin will dissolve it. Its not as good as the higher density polyurethane foams but they are substantially more expensive and so far I think this will likely meet my needs. Some home built airplanes use polystyrene foam like this so with the right design features I think a camper will do just fine. I'm continuing along with test pieces to get a feel for things, comparing how hard it is to peel laminations off the foam, foam with wood strips every so often, etc.

Definitely has possibilities.

PODS

Can you go into more detail about the epoxy and fiberglass fabric you are testing? If I missed it in a previous post I'm sorry. Thanks

I really like your design. I think the biggest upgrade from a FWC will be the side access door. After seeing your design I am considering cutting my FWC up and putting the door on the side. Storing spare tires and bicycles out of the way at the rear of the truck would be optimal for me.

Keep up the awesome work!

pods8

02-06-2011, 02:41 PM

PODS

Can you go into more detail about the epoxy and fiberglass fabric you are testing? If I missed it in a previous post I'm sorry. Thanks

Any decent resin capable of laminating would work. However since I speculated I'd need closer to 15gal of mixed epoxy to do the camper it quickly became important to try and find a cost effective one. I'm trying out US composites 635 resin with the 4:1 hardener. Their bulk prices are pretty decent compared to others. The choice of the 4:1 is due to it being winter here right now and its usable down to 45F, with extended curing times of course.

For fabric I'm trying style 7725 which is a 8.8oz 2x2 twill and style 7781 which is a 8.95oz 8 harness satin weave. One of these would make up the bulk of the camper. I'd need some uni direction fiberglass cloth along the cabover rails as well.

The airplane guys use 7725 "BID" primarily. It lays on radius well and has longer flat runs of fibers before ducking above/below the weave again. However I've found it to be a bit more delicate to work with while cutting/handling in terms of fibers getting knocked out of alingment, etc. The 7781 is a little stiffer but tends to be a little more forgiving about holding the weave in place. I'm leaning towards that right now.

Greg

02-09-2011, 01:27 AM

Pods8

I appreciate you sharing details as you go through this project using extruded polystyrene. In a different thread you mentioned using three fiberglass layers on both sides.

http://www.goldbrand.info/index.html
This site shows a foam hard sided pop-up motorcycle trailer designed to be pulled behind a Goldwing. Photos in prototype# 2 look to be pink extruded polystyrene. Very nice looking. Unfortunately it doesn't give details on foam and fiberglass layers.

ersatzknarf

02-09-2011, 02:32 PM

Great information !
This method has a lot of appeal.
Thanks !

pods8

02-09-2011, 02:36 PM

Pods8

I appreciate you sharing details as you go through this project using extruded polystyrene. In a different thread you mentioned using three fiberglass layers on both sides.

I haven't fully decide on the plys yet. The test parts I made before were 2 plys, fairly impressive strength. I beat up that corner piece in a variety of ways that makes me happy with the structural strength but I want to make up a part with 3 plys of the glass I'm using and compare the "impact" results, aka smacking it with a hammer, (I'll share results later).

Right now the main body could go either way between 2 or 3 plys. I, very roughly, estimate each layer would add ~120lb so if I get notable better impact performance on 3 plys I'd likely go that route and justify the cost & weight. The inside bottom I'm likely going to have a 1/8 layer of plywood over the foam and in that case I'd definitely only do 2 plys.

Various areas may get spot reinforcement as I look at them more. The cabover rails definitely will have multiple unidirectional fiberglass layers across the top. That is really the main critical calculation of the whole camper in my mind.

Lots of other little details to work out as well such as lift design, jack brackets/tie downs, final pop up style, door design, etc. Most things that interface with the walls generally need to be figured out before I could charge forward on an actual build.

Heifer Boy

02-09-2011, 10:05 PM

Lots of other little details to work out as well such as lift design, jack brackets/tie downs, final pop up style, door design, etc. Most things that interface with the walls generally need to be figured out before I could charge forward on an actual build.

Looking good pods8.

How are you actually going to attach things to the walls? I assume you would have a renforcement plate on the other side as the foam won't have any strength itself. How is it on compression if you bolt something though it like that?

Have you seen this build up http://www.hookedupfilms.com/huf-adventure-vehicle/ . Similar construction concept to yours.

pods8

02-10-2011, 12:27 AM

Looking good pods8.

How are you actually going to attach things to the walls? I assume you would have a renforcement plate on the other side as the foam won't have any strength itself. How is it on compression if you bolt something though it like that?

Have you seen this build up http://www.hookedupfilms.com/huf-adventure-vehicle/ . Similar construction concept to yours.

A combination of embedded wood where screwing is required and glued/fillets joints (just like your box) where I don't think I'll need to remove something again.

The 2" foam I'll be using is 60psi compression and the 1" is 25psi, anywhere I plan to bolt something though I'll add wood blocking (either solid or a plywood box). Anything that arises after the fact that might require more support than just the foam you can drill the hole, then ream the foam out some and then inject thickened epoxy in there to beef it up.

This is mainly why I want to have as much planned out as possible before embarking.

Yes I've been chatting back and forth with him on his build and we've been sharing ideas.

pods8

02-10-2011, 01:59 AM

http://www.goldbrand.info/index.html
This site shows a foam hard sided pop-up motorcycle trailer designed to be pulled behind a Goldwing. Photos in prototype# 2 look to be pink extruded polystyrene. Very nice looking. Unfortunately it doesn't give details on foam and fiberglass layers.

I just got a chance to look that over, cool build as well.

pods8

02-13-2011, 08:41 PM

I mocked up the potential camper outline on my current truck/camper to get a true visual interpretation. The increased cab over thickness didn't appear as thick in person so that is reassuring there is room to play with.

http://i532.photobucket.com/albums/ee329/pods8/IMG_0867small.jpg

http://i532.photobucket.com/albums/ee329/pods8/IMG_0868small.jpg

http://i532.photobucket.com/albums/ee329/pods8/IMG_0869small.jpg

I also mocked up part of the interior layout to again get an in person spacial interpretation. It was a little tighter than I would have thought but since I'm planning to have a lot of flexibility in the table it really doesn't have to be as snug all the time, esp. when the table is completely removed. Right now I'm thinking a 25/50/25 table split (or something of that nature) that is on slides to more around when in place. Mocking it up definitely confirmed the extra counter space over the fridge will be needed. I'll probably build a thin cabinet over over that and have the fridge pullout on slides. It'll narrow off the door during that time put will provide an working space to set things on while loading/unloading the fridge. The driver side bench will be ~48" wide and that works for 2 adults if needed. The passenger side will be 40" which would be a little snug for 2 adults. Both would work well for an adult and kid which is what I'm designing for.

http://i532.photobucket.com/albums/ee329/pods8/IMG_0889small.jpg

http://i532.photobucket.com/albums/ee329/pods8/IMG_0890small.jpg

http://i532.photobucket.com/albums/ee329/pods8/IMG_0891small.jpg

No to try and make a final decision about a single or dual pop up and figure out window placement, door design, etc.

Heifer Boy

02-13-2011, 09:15 PM

I love a good bit of CAD design (Cardboard Aided Design). It makes such a difference being able to see it properly. Looking good.

Overland Hadley

02-14-2011, 01:25 AM

I love a good bit of CAD design (Cardboard Aided Design).

:ylsmoke:

pods8

02-14-2011, 02:57 PM

Yeah computer design is nice for quickly laying out dimensions and ideas but eventually if you want real perspective it needs to be mocked up. Grab your computer dimensions and card board and it comes together quick. Doesn't need to be pretty, just shows how much space is taken up or not.

Billhilly

02-20-2011, 03:23 AM

Hi Pods8,

Have been watching this thread, and the build over at HUF.
Was reading about all the decision making involved regarding attaching things to the walls, door hardware, attaching jacks, and getting the seals sorted for the pop top part.
I really like the look of the test pieces you have done. HUF talked about maybe laying the fiberglass down on all the panels in a horozontal position, then putting the pieces together. I have no experiance at all with f/glass but thought the edges of the sheets would need to be 'lower' to allow for the additional thickness of the corner layups. (So the overall sheet was one level surface when finished). Anyway.
I wonder if another way for you would be to build a partial (or full) exo skeleton (Turtle V for example). You could quickly do full sheets in a easy working position, then glue them into the skeleton. The skeleton solves alot of the attachment issues, and would be pretty basic on a flat deck like yours.
I am currently armpit deep in the build of my truck ('72 K2500 longbox) and had sworn off building a camper. Until I saw Sönke's build. Now even though I have months left of truck build (and paying for it!) I am dreaming up my ultimate hard sided pop top. (New Zealand summers you see !?!). I personally believe this style of camper is completely under done, and we will only see more and more great designs come up in due course (like Yves Fuso and the HUF build)
Anyway just wanted to chip in about the exo deal. Have some ideas about the multistage popup deal, or not but will leave that for another time.

Bill.

pods8

02-20-2011, 04:25 PM

I was pretty much planning doing the panels in flat all along, not sure if I mentioned it to HUF prior to him coming to the conclusion of it being likely easier as well or not. I'm not planning to recess the edges of the pieces I'll just feather in the seams. The pieces would get joined with structural filler and strips of glass in the seams but all those plys would be different thicknesses verse all the same which will step contour things (widest goes down first). Then when I do my fill work to fill in the fabric weave those "steps" will be filled and then everything sanded smooth to make a smooth transition. Have to remember that a ply of fiberglass is only ~0.01" thick.

I'm not sure doing an exoskeleton in aluminum does much for me verse just keeping it skin/core construction. I'd have to deal with aluminum welding, bonding panels to the aluminum, etc. And have less "at home" flexibility in modifying things since I can't weld aluminum. I plan to build a non-structural skeleton of plywood strips and the rest of the core will be foam. The strips will help tie the inside/outside skins together but will be placed to help pick up contact points (there will be some hard wood blocking in places too). Also I'll have skeleton strips on the edges which will be screwed together while mocking up the panels, then taken apart for glassing and then screwed together while things are being bonded back together in final assembly (at least that is my current thought).

Visual progress has been a little slow on my end, need to work around my 9mo old to get physical time in the garage for test pieces. I'm making up a 3 ply sample this weekend to "destruct". However I've been stewing a bunch on windows, pop-stages, doors, etc. to try and come to some final decisions there. If you've got some ideas I'm all ears. Need to get that stage of design wrapped up before I can ever go full tilt.

I think I have my seals sorted out. Frost king makes a vinyl garage side/top garage door seal that seems like it'd seal well and wear well. Note this is different than the rubber bottom seal they also make, this is the vinyl side/top seal. Amazon.com: Frost King SG30WH Frost King Plastic Garage Door Side and Top Weather-strip Kit 13/4-Inch-b-30-Foot, White: Home Improvement

Billhilly

02-20-2011, 07:04 PM

Ok, I can see you have already sorted alot of these issues. As I said I don't have fiberglass experience, and just wondered how it would come together. Obviously with no real problems. I completely understand losing the ability to do it "at home", and can see again you are well advanced with your plywood and hardwood deal. I'm a welder and can see the benefits of some alloy for me. (I think the bonding panel deal has been sorted with Silaflex 252). If you are happy with what you are working with, fantastic.
Your seals look good. Will you run two (top edge of main body, bottom edge of popup), and are you going to use draw runners to guide the popup, or something like UHMWPE in the corners more like Sönke?
After stewing on my own design (multistage/single popup) I have come full circle back to single stage with fold up walls like an Alaskan. I had wondered for a while about a two stage deal for the cab over that was just a weather stopper before you stood the main walls up. Made out of 3mm plastic sheet it would drop in two stages as the roof lifted. Disadvantages were blocking windows in the fold up walls, and noise (rattling) in windy conditions. I understand the problems with rain/dust at set up with fold up walls. But I do wonder for the rest of the days, the ability to leave the walls down would have many more advantages. Depending on weather/bugs you could have great natural light, and depending on location, a very large window!
Looking forward to seeing how you sort these issues for your build.

One of the things I really like about this Foamular stuff is I can actually buy it down here (well the 250 anyway). Understand about pressure on time. I'm a single Dad with two (now) teenage daughters who may well have left home before camper is finally on truck. At 9 months old, you have time on your side!

Have fun.

pods8

02-20-2011, 09:26 PM

If I could weld aluminum I might consider its use more, I wouldn't want to use steel. I have decent faith in what I'm up to though.

I'd run seals on both sides. Right now I'm thinking stainless draw runners as they'd also provide alignment as well so the lift system (still TBD, working a variety of angles) just needs to lift and not guide.

I pin ball between but I'm leaning towards the multistage right now with the short door I posted before. I don't mind it too much in my FWC and it solves issues of trying to deal with a full size overlapping door.

I'll have some foamular 250 in mine but will be trying to use 600 as much as I can (ie where having 2" panels works).

I just laid up a 3ply test piece and a 2ply piece with 1/8" plywood between the foam and plys. Once those cure I'll see how they react to impact and post up results of all three (the 2ply I did before).

9mo old (and likely another soon) is the big driver it trying to make a more family friendly design verse my FWC hawk.

Billhilly

02-20-2011, 11:01 PM

Steel exoskel would be interesting. Could go much thinner (than alloy) with less fatigue issues, and I guess you could spray galv it when done.
With your population base the products you can buy (compared to a couple small islands in the South Pacific) is quite eye watering at times. I priced 2" Foamular250 at USD$76.25 for an 8X4 sheet. How does that compare?
Interesting to see how your test pieces go. And your design.

pods8

02-21-2011, 12:47 AM

With your population base the products you can buy (compared to a couple small islands in the South Pacific) is quite eye watering at times. I priced 2" Foamular250 at USD$76.25 for an 8X4 sheet. How does that compare?

Ouch! That would be ~$32-34 here.

Heifer Boy

02-21-2011, 07:23 AM

With your population base the products you can buy (compared to a couple small islands in the South Pacific) is quite eye watering at times.

Kia Ora Billhilly. Ex-Kiwi here living in Oz.

I agree with your statement above. It almost makes me cry to see the prices the guys in the US pay for stuff. For my build 12mm marine ply is about AUD$160-$180 per sheet - about USD$40, the bulb door seal I was recommended - USD$2.50 per foot, $14 per metre in Oz.

It makes it hard to experiment and play. You have to get it right first time.

pods8

02-21-2011, 02:11 PM

Yet you guys knock out some cool projects though!:coffeedrink:

pods8

02-23-2011, 03:48 AM

Okay here is my non-scientific test piece summary.

Three parts were tested, the corner piece made of 2 plys (all the way around). Then a piece with 3 plys and a piece with 1/8" plywood with 2 plys over that. Note on the last two pieces I didn't bother to laminate the backside, more on that below. All made from 1" foamular 250.

Here are the 3ply and 1/8" plywood with 2 ply sample pre-test.
http://i532.photobucket.com/albums/ee329/pods8/DSC_0637s.jpg

Okay here is the 2 ply corner piece.
1A: Medium hammer hit, localized matrix failure and a spur out to the edge, don't think that spur would have shown if this was a bigger piece. This generally intact, not really any foam damage, could be repaired fairly easy.
1B: Hard hammer hit, punched into foam, no damage on other side. Would require a foam patch as well, and more extensive surface repair.
1C: Same as 1A
1D: I put the piece on the ground with the corner up and was jumping on it. In shoes my 200lb didn't do anything in terms or surface damage or flexing the part (reassuring!). I put a board over it and jumped again. It didn't do any wide spread structural damage but the stress concentration of where the board was making contact failed the matrix partially. Overall still fairly rigid though and holding together fine. Would need to be repaired for weather ability and to regain strength to full potential.
http://i532.photobucket.com/albums/ee329/pods8/DSC_0640s.jpg

3A: Medium hammer hit, only a tiny bit of matrix failure, nothing really to be concerned about.
3B: Hard hammer hit, matrix and some glass failure, dented but not a punch through. Might not require going all the way to foam for a repair.
3C: Hammer hit with everything I had, punched through a bit. Damage was fairly minimal considering (no deformation on backside) but would require going down to foam for repair I'd say.
http://i532.photobucket.com/albums/ee329/pods8/DSC_0641s.jpg

2A, C, E, H: Medium hammer hit, some localized failure. Some running cracks but I'm thinking more so a function of being closer to the edge.
2B, I: Hard hammer hits. Localized and runner cracks, but no punch through. Doubled foam might factor in some but I'm thinking the close vertical planes might have dispersed some of the load.
2D, F: Hard hammer hits. Punch through and some cracking, 2F showed worse damage but see picture below, the foam failed through. I don't think that would have happened with the other side laminated.
http://i532.photobucket.com/albums/ee329/pods8/DSC_0642s.jpg

http://i532.photobucket.com/albums/ee329/pods8/DSC_0643s.jpg

My take away is I wish I would have taken the time to laminate the backside of the 3 ply piece to really compare now. In general though the stuff takes a decent hit, the same kind of hits would punch through thin aluminum siding I'm sure. All are repairable, some just requiring varying degrees. However even with all the hits on them the pieces are still darn solid feeling.

This didn't clearly answer to myself in regards to a path forward for a layup schedule but I have some things I can consider as I look at my design, surface area, weight/cost of each ply.

dare2go

02-23-2011, 09:58 AM

pods8

02-23-2011, 04:32 PM

I would:
1) install a shower in the entrance (sunken tray = good wet buffer when coming in muddy during heavy rain). if interested I can send you maybe some links to photos
2) raise the dinette a fair bit to install water tanks, and possibly camper batteries under the floor - good low point of gravity for heavy weights
3) I'm a big fan of North-South-beds, but that's a question of space and alkove size (+ side bracing)
4) plan for a removable stove, and an outside gas connection - nothing heats up a camper like cooking inside on a hot day

1) Since I'm not planning on a basement the idea of building in a permanent shower pan still hasn't really grown on me. However I can always build a custom pan for the doorway area that can be installed when desired and removed when not, I could drain it out the side of the camper to either ground, an under bed holding tank, or tank on the ground.

2)I'm trying to keep the tanks and batteries on the floor against the front wall to keep the bulk weight forward of the rear axle. It will still be low. As for building a compartment under the dinette that one has crossed my mind and will likely depend on the final internal height with the top down and if I think it'll be comfortable. That also makes for a raised lip in regards the the main floor that wouldn't allow smooth motion around the camper when the table was removed which is a negative to me.

3) I do definitely like north/south facing main bed (I have that in my FWC hawk with a pullout) but then I either need to really extend the cabover and/or take away internal room in the camper for a fixed bed. Neither of those are really appealing. I'd rather avoid a slide out bed and the associated hassles of loosing camper space, storing cushions, breaking the bed down, etc. I THINK I can live with an east/west bed in a hardwall camper since I won't be as concerned about brushing up against the walls with feet/blankets/pillows.

4) The removable stove did cross my mind, something like a partner or something of that nature (You have any brands I should check out?). I need to make a call to find out how the emission levels are, how much clearance they need to the side vents, etc. Right now I'm thinking about moving the stove over top of where the fridge would be (I'll shield the bottom to throw away the heat as much as possible). This is would move the stove away from ducking into/out of the dinette and avoid potential problems with someone knocking a pan/pot off the stove. It'd free up space around the sink for more working area. And as an added benefit it would be near the door so extra ventilation would be easily available in nice weather.

Billhilly

02-23-2011, 06:27 PM

Hey Pods8,

So maybe no definative answers, but like you say, all part of the learning process. Two things convinced me I could learn to do this (method). One was to get a decent insulation value (without massive thermal bridges etc). The second thing was damage repairability. Can you imagine a heavy blow on an aluminium skinned camper. On a large flat panel (side) the implications are massive. Trying to get the skin off, repair structural damage etc. I just think, if built properly, this system has many benefits.
I too won't have a basement but am hopeing to incorparate enough depth in the floor to allow for a pan to be built in, in the entry door, with a wooden slat deal sitting in it. Like dare2go says, great for dirty boots, entry zone, and possible plumbing to under deck tank long term. Easier to build it in as you go?
I had just yesterday looked at the Alaskan floor plans with the raised floor under the dinette, but with the roof down I want to be able to sit comfortably at the table, so it rules out any 'step up'.
I think the outside stove/bbq deal is a great idea. Something like Yves is planning is high on my list.
So whats the next step for you Pods?

Hey Heifer Boy. Yeah, I feel your pain! The cost of living in paradise huh!?!

pods8

02-23-2011, 06:49 PM

So whats the next step for you Pods?

Finalize and detail out the design. Haven't decided on the pop up style or door yet, need to figure out window placements, need to figure out what the deck height for the flatbed will be so I can set the cabover height, need to figure out a lift system, etc. All these are pretty big issues to know be for I go.

After all that it will be the dramatic gladiator thumbs up or down on the project when a good cost estimate is available. However my enthusiasm is high so that will weigh in strong I'm sure. But I don't want to order up $2k worth of foam, fiberglass, and epoxy only to bail on this for one reason or another so I'm trying to due my homework as much as possible to avoid unpleasant surprises.

Once those "little things", haha, are ironed out I'll probably detail out plans for where the wood strips, hard point blocking, and other internal stuff will be. Then some thought about as much wire routing as possible ahead of time. That way I can make physically progress on building the shell as quickly as possible rather than fumbling along the way.

Speaking of wiring. Stuff that is in the cabinets I'm not worried about. I'll do what I can to embed other wiring in that I can but I'm sure I'll need to surface mount some stuff. I figured a combination of corner and surface mount raceways (minimized as much as possible) might be the easy route there. Thoughts on aesthetics? I think the corner ones along the floor if needed (most of the floor will have cabinets so not really much need) would be fine. Its the surface mount stuff that I'm a little leary on in terms of looks if I needed to use any.

http://www.electriduct.com/assets/images/white_white_thing2.jpg

http://www.electriduct.com/assets/images/raceway2.jpg

Billhilly

02-27-2011, 12:19 AM

So lots to sort and plan huh.
You've seen this lift system - http://hydromechusa.com/ ? Don't know anything about their quality, how the price compares to other options, but it certainly is a pretty clean sort of a deal.
As far as wiring in the raised roof section, there is general lighting (along both sides, entire length. Bed lighting. Front (external) spot lights, Back and side lights (external for camp site, door way illumination). High mount stop/indicator lights, and then extras. Possibly speaker wires , reversing camera etc. The right sized pvc ducting could be run in the sides with draw wires installed for all these wires. One thing to remember is ordinary polystyrene (white/soft) reacts with electical wire coatings and will eventually 'rot' the insulation off. Not sure how this extruded polystyrene would react but possibly in a similar way so all wiring would need to be ducted.
As far as the rest goes, with your layout you have cabinets/underseat area's almost all the way around, and possibly some floor level raceways will cover your needs.
Door style is an intersting one for sure. No 'right' answer, ultimately what suits you. Could go inward opening. If you did the small (under slide up) door opening out/down, it could 'lock' open at say 15 degrees and have steps on the inside of it to assist entry. Then when the top was raised you could open top section out/up which gives a small veranda area. Lots of options.
Enough unsolicited thoughts, a couple of photos from my collection to inform/confuse!

Heifer Boy

02-27-2011, 04:04 AM

This didn't clearly answer to myself in regards to a path forward for a layup schedule but I have some things I can consider as I look at my design, surface area, weight/cost of each ply.

Nice testing regime :victory:

One thing that is a little worrying is the spur fractures when just using the foam. Admitedly it would be a big hit to make this happen and I can't see this happening outside of an accident but on a finished camper a spur could be hidden under the paint and missed during a repair. The 1/8 ply seemed to stop this. Would using the ply with a lighter thickness of foam achieve the same results? How would that effect cost/weight/insulation? How much extra work would it be for the outside possibility of a small high velocity hit?

I thought about all the same after my tests and coudn't really come up with a scenario when the camper could take a hit like that at speed. Maybe a bump trying to squeeze into a camp spot or a tree branch dropping on you at night but not while driving down the highway.

I think the 'jumping up and down' test is more relavant to test overall rigidity and strength of the panels and joints. Your examples passed with flying colours. Good stuff.

I like your other plans and thoughts too. Big campers like this take a whole lot of planning to get right and there are so many options. I'm watching keenly.

@billhilly - nice examples.

pods8

02-27-2011, 04:53 PM

So lots to sort and plan huh.
You've seen this lift system - http://hydromechusa.com/ ? Don't know anything about their quality, how the price compares to other options, but it certainly is a pretty clean sort of a deal.

Yes I have and I'm talking to them. That website though is misleading, that isn't the actual product and that website was put up by someone not associated with the company (something about a guy wanting to become a partner or something I was told). The actual company has no control of the content on that site. I've seen a picture of the actual pump assembly they do make but it looks nothing like the one on the page. It does appear to be a nice little package.

The problem so far is the lack of an answer if they would sell me a unit and for how much, they currently only deal with camper OEMs. Still pursuing with them and trying to see about at least getting a pump unit if nothing else from them. I don't need the double action lifts but either they or I could rework them since the main lifting cylinder is a 26" stroke and that is fine of my needs.

So lots to sort and plan huh.
One thing to remember is ordinary polystyrene (white/soft) reacts with electical wire coatings and will eventually 'rot' the insulation off. Not sure how this extruded polystyrene would react but possibly in a similar way so all wiring would need to be ducted.

I was not aware of that, very good to know.

Nice testing regime :victory:

One thing that is a little worrying is the spur fractures when just using the foam. Admitedly it would be a big hit to make this happen and I can't see this happening outside of an accident but on a finished camper a spur could be hidden under the paint and missed during a repair. The 1/8 ply seemed to stop this. Would using the ply with a lighter thickness of foam achieve the same results? How would that effect cost/weight/insulation? How much extra work would it be for the outside possibility of a small high velocity hit?

I like your other plans and thoughts too. Big campers like this take a whole lot of planning to get right and there are so many options. I'm watching keenly.

@billhilly - nice examples.

The spurs are just some resin cracking but are quite sturdy still so not as worrisome as you might thing. I'd say if the cracks carried through into the paint then you'd know you have an issue. Just my unscientific thoughts.

1/8" plywood is about 2-3times as heavy as a ply of glass so a layup that was 1/8" plywood with 2 plys of glass would weight 1.33 to 1.66 times as much as 3 plys of glass. Cost would be about the same. Foam thickness I want to use is more a function of fitting in extra insulation.

Looking at the costs of the panels and time to lay them up I've also decided to check into prefabbed core panels to see where the cost comparison weighs out there. Might end up being worth considering buying flat panels and make better use of my time assembling, glassing up corners, cutting in windows/doors, etc. We will see.

There is definitely a lot of things that need to be ironed out that are taken for granted in a final product. While I'm stewing on other things I think I might do a detailed model of all the tanks, batteries, etc. would be inside the cabinets and such to check that one off the list.

ersatzknarf

02-27-2011, 05:14 PM

pods8

02-27-2011, 07:46 PM

Hi Pods,

That is a very logical consideration.
Are pre-fabbed core panels commonly available ?
With all the interest in the Nida-Core like materials, I am a bit lost on what is out there...
Considering field repairs, etc., the foam core / fiberglass construction seems to make a lot of sense for travelling, compared to the pultruded PP core materials.

(by the way, how about air-powered cylinders or linear electric motors for lifting the roof ?)

The thought just crossed my mind a few days ago so I really don't know much at this point. Nothing really appears commonly available but if you're building a whole camper I think you can scrounge up an order, I just don't know how much a premium you pay for a smaller order. Biggest thing to likely figure out is what sizes/style are more of a common run for the companies and see if you can work around that to keep the cost down.

If I went with a prefabbed panel I'd be looking for something that was compatible with epoxy and fiberglass. If so you could do repairs with scraps from the build or still be able to use foam & thickened epoxy to repair core pieces. Then used fiberglass to repair the skin. I've got more research/looking to do to figure out what options there are.

Here are the lift thoughts that have crossed my mind or been brought up so far:
Hydraulic - most preferable in my mind if I can get a synchronized system for a reasonable cost. You only have to deal with vertical lifting, the cylinder bores are smaller since they work at higher pressures, incompressible fluid so as long as they are fed the same amount there isn't any issues with different lift rates.

Pneumatics - Larger cylinders than hydraulics and then since gas is compressible you have issues trying to get a balanced lift.

Linear actuators - different loads affect their rate of lift as well, you can operated them off one master switch and then have individual correction switches for each one so you can jog them back into sync as needed. However that seems like a lot of hassle to have to do over and over again, and the potential to bind things up when you're tired/rushed.

Screw jacks - simple & reliable, still has a vertical lift, but would take gear boxes and drive shafts to couple everything together to get a sycn lift.

Scissor lifts - Have to deal with out of plane (ie not vertical) forces, have to accommodate for the linkage and movement of the linkage in the camper area.

Traditional pop-up telescoping cable lifts - I can't really find any of these for sale as a stand alone item to see where the price point is on them. Downside is you need to route the cables and rely on them not to snap over the long haul.

Gas springs - Would be hard to get a sycn lift out of them, I wouldn't trust them to support a snow load or something of that nature but supports could be snapped into place once the roof is up to support stuff like that. However you need to get the load rating right and there isn't leeway for adapting to load changes (ie snow of the roof). Again hard to sycn.

sarconcepts cable method could sycn up most lift systems but I'm not too keen on routing all the cabling. Ideally synchronized hydraulics just take a single tube routed to each cylinder, much more appealing if the cost point is there.

ersatzknarf

02-27-2011, 08:20 PM

Hi Pods,
Thank you for the detailed response.
I think the foam cored FRP panels of interest are used for refrigerated trucks in Europe, but I have not found anything here, yet. . . (just recalled hearing about something called, Kemlite (sp?), but nothing more on details)
As for the lifting mechanism, I see your point. The thought of a fluid leak is the only thing that is off-putting...

pods8

02-27-2011, 09:36 PM

Hi Pods,
The thought of a fluid leak is the only thing that is off-putting...

Leaks are only going to occur at fittings or orings within the cylinders in most cases. Fluid quantities are low as well so shouldn't be too much concern. So while designing make sure to leave access to the fittings and the ability to yank a cylinder if needed for service. Also a little containment perimeter around the cylinder and pump would be cheap insurance to catch any leaks that did arise and limit the cleanup.

Most of the complaints I've seen on hydraulic lifts are old alaskan campers and such. In reality they just need an oring swap and there would be no issue. If they were easily done then you wouldn't see people letting things like that go and making a mess.

ersatzknarf

02-28-2011, 01:43 AM

It looks like you have considered using hydraulics well and so it should work out for you.

By the way, here is that Kemlite link : http://www.cranecomposites.com/

I have looked at their site a few times, now that I recall it, but haven't really made heads or tails of their offerings, but perhaps the site is more geared to attract inquiries from manufacturers to use their products. I will have to look into it further. If they offer a foam core / FRP board in large sizes, they might be a consideration...

Greg

02-28-2011, 02:14 AM

Pods8,

Have not contacted these people about their panels. The photo with the two people standing on a fiberglass skinned panel looked interesting. Looks like they use an internal grid connecting the inner and outer skins.

http://www.superhoneycomb.com/product_fiberglass.html

pods8

02-28-2011, 02:35 PM

Thanks for the links guys, I'll dig into them. The super honey comb place is only located 2 hrs from me so depending on their offerings it would allow some face to face on the product and avoid shipping. We'll see what I dig up and pricing (which could be painful)...

pods8

03-02-2011, 04:48 PM

Just a little follow up note on the testing. It dawned on me in my enthusiasm to beat up those samples I probably didn't let them cure long enough (epoxy develops a good chunk of strength early but it takes a while longer to build the rest and it is also a little more brittle early on). Anyways now that its been over a week I smacked the #2 test part (with 3 plys) again in the areas that hadn't already had a punch through failure and didn't have any hits bust through. There was some cracking but no complete failures, so there is an improvement. I'm not going to bother with pictures since all the damage areas are intertwined now. I may make some more test pieces and if so I'll see how the clean pieces react after a longer cure.

phird05

03-02-2011, 11:56 PM

Pods, when are you going to start this build? I'm sure I am not the only one here that is anxious to see the progress! I just yanked my camper out of the garage for the season and it got me wondering about your build. I have no time or desire to build a camper, so I rely on everyone else to see good results.

Paul

pods8

03-03-2011, 04:05 PM

I haven't quite found my clear path forward yet but if I'm going to do this thing I'd want to start within a month or so. I've got some inquiries out about some prefab panels that I'm waiting for pricing/lead time on to see which way to go there as well.

If I'd be doing the panel layup I need to have a chat with the little lady to make sure our expectations on required time to get this done in a reasonable fashion are aligned. No need to turn the camper intended to accommodate the family better into a family wedge. Gotta be realistic on that front, which is why I've been doing as much front end research/planning as possible.

That said I'm antsy too... :)

ersatzknarf

03-03-2011, 04:34 PM

We're antsy, too ! :sombrero:

Pre-fab panels will be interesting to hear about whether that is a viable means...

Since those "G-Wagen"-style ambu boxes don't seem to grow on trees around here, making one using your method has a lot of appeal - that and we could configure it exactly as needed :ylsmoke:

Sure hope that this all works out for you, regardless ! ! ! :coffeedrink:

pods8

03-04-2011, 07:08 PM

Things are looking up on the hydraulics front. A pop-up truck camper company has recently contacted them about getting some units setup for their rigs which means there is an larger manufacturing push to make the couple adjustments towards the design I needed (a straight cylinder lift as opposed to the double action lift). So it sounds positive about being able to obtain something from them now. Nothing in stone yet, I'm supposed to call back in a couple weeks and ideally they should have some units available and we'll see if we can knock out a deal.

In the meantime I know the dimensions for the drive unit so I can delegate an area in planning and I think it should work nicely as sketched below.

Reference back to the original sketch in terms of cabinet layout:
http://i532.photobucket.com/albums/ee329/pods8/Interior1.jpg

Here is where I think I'd stick all the utilities into that layout. Taking into account the gas tank under the truck it should decently balance out side to side weight and keeps all the major camper weight low/forward. (The 50# fridge would be above the water tank/batteries as noted in the original layout. I'll move the stove above the fridge as well, not really a weight consideration there but just reflecting my current thought since its not properly depicted above.)

http://i532.photobucket.com/albums/ee329/pods8/Utilities.jpg

teleturns

03-08-2011, 07:48 PM

eugene

03-08-2011, 09:33 PM

Most truck manufacturers take into account the weight of the gas tank and offset some other weight to the other side so its already balanced.

pods8

03-08-2011, 09:41 PM

PODS

Have you done any research about Polystyrene foam board in relation to off gassing? I searched around the internet, but I didn't find much. I am wondering if there are any poisonous toxins that could be off gassed by the Polystyrene. I wouldn't want to sleep in a camper full of harmful gas fumes.

It's just a thought. I plan on insulating my FWC with Polystyrene foam board and am interested in what you think about off gassing.

Thanks
Tyler

To be honest it never really crossed my mind and I haven't looked it up. Considering its used in home building I can't imagine it would be accepted if it was releasing poisonous gas. If you're not finding much information I'd again think its not likely really an issue. But do your own homework if you are still concerned. In my case it'll be pretty much all encapsulated though anyways.

Most truck manufacturers take into account the weight of the gas tank and offset some other weight to the other side so its already balanced.

Exhaust is on the other side but unless the transfer case or something is more towards the passenger side I can't think of much else that isn't symmetrical (unless the whole drive train isn't quite on the center line?).

Either way the kitchen cabinets will also be holding a variety of goods and supplies which will also tally up the weight on the driver side so even with the gas tank out of the picture its better in my mind to have some of the heavier items I have on the passenger side. The weight balance isn't that offset as it is, but its a definite improvement over just stuffing it all in the driver side cabinets.

bob91yj

03-09-2011, 01:56 AM

I replaced my stock 26 gallon plastic fuel tank with a steel 45 gallon tank (Transfer Flow). I was sure the truck would lean to the driver side, especially with a full tank, no noticable difference that I can tell. All of the aplliances in my camper are on the driver side. To top it all off, not thinking, I had a spare tire carrier built that holds a 315/70/16 mostly on the driver side. Even with all of that, I don't notice it when driving.

I do run air bags, put a few extra pounds in the driver side bag just to make myself feel better about the situation.

pods8

03-09-2011, 02:17 PM

eugene

03-09-2011, 08:29 PM

Exhaust is on the other side but unless the transfer case or something is more towards the passenger side I can't think of much else that isn't symmetrical (unless the whole drive train isn't quite on the center line?).

Exactly, its somehting like the engine/transmission are 1/4" right of center, just enough to even it out. I would try for empty tanks and cabinets to be evened out then when you fill them its its off a little one way or the other it won't be that much and will even out with use.

pods8

03-11-2011, 02:45 PM

Exterior lighting:

Lets here some thoughts on exterior lights. I'm thinking a basic side porch light by the door is in scope.

My current hawk has rear floods, I don't ever really sure them. I'm thinking about not bothering with something like that mounted on the camper (I'll probably add some rear floods on the flatbed for backing up in the woods, etc. but I don't necessarily think they need to be up higher on the camper).

I see some rigs doing front floods on the camper overhand. I'm thinking normal bumper/front of the truck mounted lighting suits me just fine).

So right now I'm really only thinking about a porch light (or two, maybe one with a yellow/amber lens and the other brighter white). Any thoughts for consideration on this? I'll need to embed this wiring early on.

Billhilly

03-13-2011, 12:45 AM

I thought two or three (or four) of these http://www.pplmotorhomes.com/parts/rv-lights/motion-security-light.htm would be a good idea. Handy as you approach the vehicle at night. Unnerving for anybody who shouldn't be approaching the vehicle at night.

pods8

03-21-2011, 03:06 PM

Just an update, this project is going LIVE! :wings: I'll be ordering a bulk of epoxy this week (not sure what my total need will be since I'm still in the air on ply schedule but this will get me a ways along). Also I'll be making a run to the construction supply warehouse for the foamular 600. I'm interested to see how that stuff is verse the 250 and hopefully it will help me answer a few layup questions. I'm also trying out some other fabric as well which should wet out and work out bubbles very quickly, which will be important in the large panels I'm doing. Once I get that figured out I'll make my fabric order but in the meantime I've got cores to construct.

I still have numerous questions in my head but none of them really affect the floor pack core so I'll go ahead and start off by building that and trying to answer the other questions as I go.

I plan to start a new thread for the build so its a bit more concise. I'll probably still utilize this one as I hash out some of the bigger up in the air items. Ideally that will avoid confusion in the build thread for anyone reading it later on about what was actually built into the design.

ersatzknarf

03-21-2011, 04:27 PM

Congratulations, pods8 ! ! !

Very much looking forward to following along on this one :sombrero:

pods8

03-23-2011, 03:12 PM

Windows, windows, everywhere? Thinking myself in circles here on windows folks and wouldn't mind some useful input. In my general thinking on one hand I feel like I want too many windows (for light/visibility) even if they are picture windows. However in reality I usually have most the curtains drawn up on my current camper for privacy. I don't want to waste the time/effort/money in putting in window locations that I'll never bother to use, however this is the best time to install a window rather than after the fact...

Right now I'm leaning towards a single stage pop-up with folding hardwalls on the cab over. I'm definitely planning to have a window on each side of the cab over, ideally slider windows for ventilation. I'll also have an opening cab through window.

Another consideration is how many of them really need to be opening windows? Initial impulse is for maximum ventilation but in reality I'm thinking between the roof vents (probably 2), cabover windows, cab through window, and perhaps one of the rear windows would be plenty (ie make the side windows pictures if they are there at all?).

Check out the picture below and lets comment on windows.

Windows of primary concern:
4) In conjunction with window 5 this would allow me to see out the back of the camper while driving, I'd need either a large window or a narrow one mounted low. Rather have this upper one opening or the lower one (don't really need both)?

5) I'd need a window here to see through the camper while driving as mentioned. The visibility zone is actually below the table mostly (which would be stowed while driving) so the main area I'd need window is in the 20"-30" above the camper floor range. Either a big picture window here or a slider I think. Not sure if the ventilation blowing half under the table is a negative. I suppose thinking about it more a big picture window here and a slider window above might be nice?

Secondary thought windows:
1) Might be nice but no major motivation, picture or slider would seem fine.

3&7) There will likely only be about 7" of visible window space with the seat backs up if there were windows here. However these windows would make it easy to have curtains fixed in place as opposed to the ones above. I feel like sliders would be bad here (not usable while in dinette and safety concerns in bed mode). A narrow picture window in the upper portion 12" above the bed height might be decent and that would maximize how much light comes through when the seat backs are up. These windows would be shielded while driving.

2&6) I'd either do 2&6 or 3&7 (or none), not both. These windows have more exposed space for light/ventilation options. However curtain options are reduced, however the windows are higher up so less privacy concerns anyways. Sliders offer more ventilation if needed but I don't know if I'd use them.

Thumbs up or down on side windows by the dinette?

http://i532.photobucket.com/albums/ee329/pods8/windows2.jpg

pods8

03-30-2011, 04:06 PM

Design front frustration (not related to the actual build that I've started now). Still getting non-committal answers from the hydraulic system supplier I was wanting to use. Now I'm hearing when parts arrive in 70days I "probably" could get a unit. I can't even get a firm quote and place order for future delivery to ensure I get a unit. Far to much uncertainty considering I've started building.

I had held this above linear actuators in my head even though it would cost a bit more because its always synchronized and should be 1 button up/down without having to watch for rise rate inconsistencies. But for now I guess I'll shift my mindset over to linear actuators.

Billhilly

03-30-2011, 06:37 PM

Crazy way to try and run a business! So they advertise a product but then can't deliver?? A little frustrating to say the least.
As long as the space was there, and a (potentially) adjustable lower mounting point was sorted, would it be possible to continue on with the build and see what becomes available in two to three months?
Oh, and great to see you have been able to go ahead and build this! Look forward watching this take shape as time allows.

pods8

03-30-2011, 07:50 PM

They're catering to OEMs and not sure if they want to sell to the public.

What I'm going to do is just add in the mounting aspects for the linear actuators and roll forward. The top mounting point in terms of contact area should basically be the same for either. I'll have hard point blocking in the corner cores already to the cylinders are covered either way. I just need to account for the lower linear actuator mounting point possibility now.

Home Skillet

03-30-2011, 08:01 PM

pods8

03-30-2011, 09:32 PM

Pods8,

Sorry to hear about the hydro lifts. That would have been cadillac for sure. Hopefully the actuators will work out for you.
I will have mine in 7-10 days and be installing them, so I can ginnea pig for you.
I am going with: Progressive automations (http://progressiveautomations.com/linear-actuators-pa-02-/actuator-force-400-lbs/cat_13.html)

Home Skillet

Some of the folks on here are using a similar one by Firgelli http://www.firgelliauto.com/product_info.php?cPath=93&products_id=58, however they do actuate at different speeds for the weight (as you already know). I'm concerned about the speed difference for the front set which will have the weight of the cab over roof on them as well. They make a speed control http://www.firgelliauto.com/product_info.php?cPath=99&products_id=21 but its $40 per actuator to be able to tune them all in, might only need them for one half though, I dunno. Also I don't know how the speed controller would factor in on the retraction (ie if you've slowed one set with less weight on them down to balance the lift you wouldn't want them running slower on the way down). I haven't called the manufacturer with questions at this point.

Home Skillet

03-30-2011, 10:13 PM

Some of the folks on here are using a similar one by I haven't called the manufacturer with questions at this point.

Ya I looked at the Firgellis and acutally talked to them for a awhile too. There really isn't a good solution for the speed/weight problem other than what you have mentioned.
I am thinking I will use a remote device to control the lift and can then do visual/manual adjusting on rise and lower. Not eligant, but will work per the manufacturer. I just don't know how else to do it. I have the same issue with the cabover portion being the duty for the front 2 lifts too.

Home Skillet

pods8

03-31-2011, 01:01 AM

Ya I looked at the Firgellis and acutally talked to them for a awhile too. There really isn't a good solution for the speed/weight problem other than what you have mentioned.
I am thinking I will use a remote device to control the lift and can then do visual/manual adjusting on rise and lower. Not eligant, but will work per the manufacturer. I just don't know how else to do it. I have the same issue with the cabover portion being the duty for the front 2 lifts too.

Home Skillet

What swayed you to progressive by the way? The firgellis are $5 cheaper and have a better duty rating.

Although there is a cost involved as long as you're not putting stuff on and off the roof I'd think once dialed in with controllers then actuators would then be good to go. I'm pretty damn rusty on my EE but when I get down the road perhaps I'll do some research to see if I could just build a 4 actuator controller based on the PWM the manufacturer uses.

MrBeast

03-31-2011, 01:29 AM

Man really interesting thread, just skimmed through the whole thing, learned quite a bit.

pods8

04-11-2011, 07:20 PM

Okay more design thoughts now that I need to start turning my attention to building the lower wall cores. Two issues to iron out, the water fill and external hatches.

Water fill: To do an external gravity drain that doesn't require lifting the top up I'd need to do it in the front wall in the little bit of space not blocked by the cab. This doesn't seem ideal. I'm not really interested in having to lift the roof to access a gravity hatch either. I could use a "city water hookup" to fill the tank but if I'm not around pressurized water that is no good. So I'm sorta thinking an access hatch lower down (or just inside the door way) with a small pump & tubing might be the way to go. I'd just open up this hatch, drop the tubing into my water container and pump it into the water tank (perk would be being able to leave the tank on the ground). There might be the possibility of valving out the normal pump for double duty depending on how I finally lay things out but either way a second pump isn't a high dollar item. For a backup I might include a capped gravity fill tube inside the camper.

External hatches: This is in regards to the areas under the dinette seats. How much value do people see in being able to get into one (or both) of those areas from the exterior of the camper verse just lifting the seats up inside? I see some value if someone (or gear) is on the seats in not having to have them move. But I don't know if its worth bothering with a hatch. Hatch adds build complexity and is just another thermal and moisture infiltration point that would need to be sealed off.

Thoughts from field experience?

DEnd

04-13-2011, 09:40 PM

I'm moving our discussion over here from Home Skillet's thread, because I think it fits better. So to recap:

Secondly did you consider doing dove tail corners? It seems to me that the 90 degree corners are the "weak" point in the design, but then agian I'm not at all familiar with foam and fiber composite construction techniques. It just seems to me, comming from a wood working background that would be the strongest way to join the pieces. Though I understand that it could be a bit overkill.

The core really isn't intended to be load bearing in the manner you are thinking. The skins take all those loads. The core is intended to keep the skins from buckling and in relation to each other. Sandwich construction is basically a big I beam except the center is full of foam instead of a strip of material (if that makes sense) but accomplishes the same task.

I was more thinking it would give the greatest binding area at the corner for each peice of foam to the fiber.

I guess I'm not following what you're talking about. In his build be built the whole core structure out of foam and then wrapped his carbon plys over it so they are one continuous skin over the corner. Where do the dovetails come into play in your mind, I'm assuming you're talking about jointing the core pieces together?

Right just the core peices. To me it allows the stress of possible core seperation to be spread over both sides of the 90 instead of just one, if that makes any sense. To me the joint itself is where there may be possible weakness in the design (where nonimpact caused delamination may be most likely to occur). While a dove tailed or finger jointed corner would increase the actual size of the join area by about 2-3 times, having it spread over both sides (basically doubling or so the surface area where the join contacts the fiber) would increase it's strength, by spreading out the forces that may cause delamination over a larger area (more fibers over the total join).

And to expound a bit more notice on your picture: http://i532.photobucket.com/albums/ee329/pods8/DSC_0640s.jpg
the damage to hit 1D is largely on the join side of the corner, using a dove tail or finger joint method I would think that the damage could be more equally distributed, resulting in a smaller area of damage. but I could be completely wrong though... It wouldn't be the first time. and of course the damage may tend to be on that side if that's where the forces mostly landed too...

windsock

04-13-2011, 11:03 PM

Hi pods8,

Some thoughts...

Your pumping idea above sounds good. However, if wanting to go with gravity, one method I had thought of requires a 'snorkel-like' pipe to your water tank. The inlet (that goes through the wall of the camper base) to the tank is low enough to be below the top of the camper in the lowered position and the top of the 'snorkel' is high enough to ensure the level of the full tank wouldn't overflow. Hard to describe well really but I hope I have done that. Strength of the freestanding pipe would be the weakness. You may need some bracing built into the top portion of the camper to protect it from vibration while travelling.

As for external hatches. The only need I can see from my own experience would be access for recovery gear while driving rough country. I guess we all see a lot of pictures of others campers where this and that wonderful camp-enhancing equipment slides/rolls/is accessed out of hatches left right and centre. In previous trucks and campers all those years ago I have always lived with the weather-tightness concept first. All very well designing for vertical rain while in camp-mode but in a camper the rain is 3D at times as well while travelling with all the inherent internal pressure zones and this can be a problem. It is all a trade-off. I say weather-tight first, convenience of access second. If you can do the latter while ensuring the former, why not.

Dovetailing joints in foam? While I see clear benefit in wood, where the joint is to be stand-alone for strength, I don't see any benefit for foam when the strength of the join is not only the joint but also the enveloping skin of glass over cloth. Butt-joints on foam and then glassing over a cloth and filleting inside I would imagine to be ample for this type of construction. I too could be wrong...

pods8

04-13-2011, 11:21 PM

For starters when I glue foam together with a microslurry the joint in actually stronger than the other core foam.

In regards to a corner again the foam doesn't get the loads you are thinking. It sees compression and sheer at the skins. The skins take the load. The core just has to hold them in relation to each other, that is why honey comb cores with open spaces still work. So even though the cores don’t see the loads you are thinking the joint in this case is stronger than the rest of the foam (also the inside corner gets a fillet to relieve the stress concentration, the outside corner which the joint isn't on is also radiused).

In that picture that one side was just loaded more. I did that by laying a board over the piece with the corner pointing up and jumping on it, one side of the board was touching the ground and that was the side.

DEnd

04-14-2011, 12:16 AM

pods8

04-14-2011, 01:21 AM

I get that the foam doesn't see hardly any loading, I was more concerned that at the join, due to a possible higher resin content in that area, the join might be weaker than the rest of the structure. As well I was concerned that the fibers might not be as well bonded at the join itself as the rest of the structure.

Thinking about it though I think that due to the difficulty of getting dove tails and finger joints really tight (a bit of a problem I've had in wood working and with my polystyrene bee hives) adding an extra layer or two of fiber over the join would probably be the simpliest and probably better solution to my percieved "problem." (if it is even one).

The resin is stronger than the foam though, I think you are giving the foam more credit for strength than it really has. If you glue the edge of a piece of foam flat on a piece of wood w/o any fillets and then pull on it it will likely fracture above the glue line still (leaving foam on the wood). If you have fillets you can guarantee it will fracture in the foam and not the bond. Since the joint is stronger than the rest of the foam core you have no worries about that causing the core to fail.

Then since the core isn't loaded in a manner you are thinking it really doesn't even matter.

Below is a crude paint sketch of how I'm assembling my corners since I'm building my panels and doing the bulk glass work with them flat. Pink is the foam core, black is the bulk glass plys, red is the thickened epoxy in the joint and making up the interior fillet, grey is the subsequent glass plys to really strengthen up the corner.
http://i532.photobucket.com/albums/ee329/pods8/corner.jpg

Edit: Technically I'll have some plywood strips as noted by the brown in the picture below but they aren't there for core strength. I'm using them to make trimming the edges of the layups easier and also to have something to screw into to hold the panels together during fitup and then while the epoxy sets up when I finally assemble things.
http://i532.photobucket.com/albums/ee329/pods8/corner1.jpg

pods8

04-14-2011, 02:41 AM

Windsock,

Not really following the snorkel idea entirely. I am swaying pack towards thinking about a gravity fill potentially in that front wall though.

On external access right now I'm thinking main door (duh), a propane hatch (but this compartment would be sealed from the main rig so not as much worry), and maybe a hatch on the back to access into one of the dinette seat storage areas (I think I'll frame for it now and can either opt to glass it over or leave it open down the line here, even if I do glass it over I can cut it open later...). I've found a RV takeoff place with clamp in style hatches for ~$10ea so rather than bother trying to fab up my own I might just pick up one of those for the propane and one for the back hatch. Not a big deal if I scrap the back hatch idea then.

Now I just need to figure out what size propane hatch... I'm pondering reworking the whole utility layout. Also maybe only doing a single propane tank in the camper (can probably carry a second tank under the flatbed if needed to swap out).

windsock

04-14-2011, 03:01 AM

Windsock,

Not really following the snorkel idea entirely. I am swaying pack towards thinking about a gravity fill potentially in that front wall though.

Sorry about an unclear description. Recovering from the flu right now so not feeling so lucid... picture x 1000 words et al... this would be through the front wall. Hope it is clearer than previous effort. All the best.

http://i348.photobucket.com/albums/q346/windsock_on_the_hill/watertankfiller.jpg

pods8

04-14-2011, 02:24 PM

Sorry about an unclear description. Recovering from the flu right now so not feeling so lucid... picture x 1000 words et al... this would be through the front wall. Hope it is clearer than previous effort. All the best.

Actually the front wall doesn't have any overlapping action (its under the cabover) so a normal fill hatch there is just fine. I'm just pondering if I want one there in the smaller front space not blocked by the truck cab.

However it dawned on me that the first ~8" or so of roof lift I still won't have exposed the camper cab over interior so I could lift the roof a bit to expose a side water fill if needed I suppose. Not ideal since the roof does need to get lifted some but not the end of the world either. My main concern with having to lift the roof before would be needing to hop up into the camper and flip the cabover walls into place so things were closed up while the roof was up.

pods8

04-19-2011, 08:34 PM

Okay decided to do some reshuffling in utility layout. Would love any input anyone out there has asap as I'll be likely framing in cutouts for this stuff this coming weekend.

In the sketch below the yellow represents the overall cabinet outlines. Red is the visible outlines of the utility blocks w/o regard to the cabinet lines overlaid. Blue is the hidden lines in the sketch, hopefully that helps visually make things stand out in the iso sketch?

I've scaled back to a single 20lb propane tank in the camper and figure I'll carry a spare if needed elsewhere. On the driver side will be the fridge, battery/electronics compartment, and also a compartment that could either fit a 7gal water cube/a portable toilet/or misc storage. Main water tank is along the front, partially offset to the driver side. There will be a 4-6" gap between the driverside wall and that tank which will house the pump, drain/fill lines, etc. I plan to add a small utility access hatch (I've seen stuff in the 4"-6" range) so the pump can be serviced if needed. Moving back along the drivers wall will be a 17"x14" hatch into the propane compartment, behind the propane compartment will be the heater with it's vent. In front of the propane compartment will be the grey water jug which can be removed out the front of the cabinet to dump.

http://i532.photobucket.com/albums/ee329/pods8/utilities-1.jpg

Billhilly

04-19-2011, 10:16 PM

Can't fault it. With the space you have it covers all the basics very well. Power next to fridge, propane next to heater. Option for porti potty, weight well forward etc, etc.
If you made a full extension slide out pantry deal above the water tank, against the front wall, it would slide out over your water tank/step and use all available space in that corner too.

pods8

04-19-2011, 10:44 PM

If you made a full extension slide out pantry deal above the water tank, against the front wall, it would slide out over your water tank/step and use all available space in that corner too.

Yes the remainder of the cabinet will be populated with drawers and doors to utilize up the space. There will be a little dead space between the driver wall and water tank where the pump will be not too extensive, it would be hard to work around the plumbing there anyways.

pods8

04-25-2011, 08:23 PM

Need some thoughts here on how to open the outer door when the top is down and thus the inner door is blocking it.

I was thinking of using basic trimark RV handles like this:
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/31kMCv4Vx2L._SL500_AA300_.jpg

My door thickness is 2", since the above handles are for 1.25-1.5" doors that helps me out so I can recess the inner handle mount .5-.75" into the door. I was thinking about putting cable controls into the door core and routing the actuation part near the top of the door (which would be above the inner/lower door). The lock latch is just back and forth which would be fairly easy, the latch release would likely need to have the cable control drilled into the housing to actually pull the latch release. Thoughts or better ideas?

http://i532.photobucket.com/albums/ee329/pods8/20110425_130933.jpg

Bike_Mech

04-28-2011, 03:03 PM

If you remember Basinrangers Fuso build. He had a pretty neat overlapping door solution, but unfortunately he deleted his entire build thread. I did download a bunch of the images he posted before that happened though. Hope this is legit...

-Chris

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5223/5664352941_d5c0748210_z.jpg
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5267/5664918662_ecc717c464_z.jpg

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5262/5664918618_1f74f19f95_z.jpg

pods8

04-28-2011, 03:50 PM

If you remember Basinrangers Fuso build. He had a pretty neat overlapping door solution, but unfortunately he deleted his entire build thread. I did download a bunch of the images he posted before that happened though. Hope this is legit...

-Chris

Yep I gawked through that thread numerous times, damn shame it's not up any more. :( (I still have no idea why he bombed out the whole thing).

Thanks for the pictures but between those and my recollection from his thread I don't recall him ever addressing how to get out from the interior with the top down, do you? (The outer door latch is blocked by the inner door, look at the second picture) For some folks they don't use their camper in that manner so it doesn't matter but I jump into my FWC a fair amount with the top down (and close the door) and would like to do the same on this new one.

I haven't really settled on anything yet in my head but my current slight leaning is to potentially build a little inward swinging "peep" door access hatch into the inner door that would open up a small opening (4" square?) to all reaching through to lock/unlock and open the outer door.

windsock

04-28-2011, 08:49 PM

(Crudely) Using your top right diagram from a couple of posts ago, what about a lever system? This can be as basic as using one fulcrum point. Would be easier to implement than cables wouldn't it? Undo lever can have a spring-return on it so it stays in one position while not in use.

http://i348.photobucket.com/albums/q346/windsock_on_the_hill/pods8doorlatch.jpg

One lever to unlock/lock and one lever to open the latch. Top of levers are made so they are above the inner layer of the camper shell.

While I do like the 'peep' door idea, it is another hole in the side of the camper...

Overland Hadley

04-29-2011, 01:37 AM

Yep I gawked through that thread numerous times, damn shame it's not up any more. :( (I still have no idea why he bombed out the whole thing).

x2

That was one of the best builds I have seen here.

pods8

04-29-2011, 02:34 PM

Windsock, I had though control cables (or whatever you call the push/pull cables in the plastic sleeve) would be easier to bury in the door core as opposed to carving out a bigger free movement area for levers.

A peep door is another open for sure but it would be in the door zone which already has plenty of opening area going on already. So if there were issues with the peep door I'd likely already be needing to address them with the big door and at least it would all be in one area. I'm not sold on this idea yet but from a simplicity standpoint and having less probability of having a mechanical snafu it does have appeal.

Birder

06-13-2011, 10:43 AM

Hi Pods8

I am following your build as i want to do something similar

http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=62984&d=1307961275&thumb=1&stc=1

This is one of your images and i was wondering what you will be doing to stop failures at the marked points?

It seems to me that there will not be a lot of strength in points A & B and even point C could also fail.

Great build so far, i will be using your idea of 2" wide ply at joins and around openings.

I shall be using a 2 part epoxy swimming pool / Boat paint system for my final covering as its avaiable in colours and clear

pods8

06-13-2011, 02:43 PM

A&B are treated the same in my mind. I basically looked at the cabover as a big flat cantilevered beam. So then I took a cross sectional slice of it and did a beam calculation on it. However it isn't quite that simple since the "beam" is made up of multiple materials with different strength and modulus, so a composite calculation was done in excel to get the net result of the whole thing and start playing with different iterations to figure out what was going to be required. (Sorry if that is starting to get a bit too technical, I pulled some help setting up the calc myself as those brain cells were a bit dusty).

The top of the cabover rails basically end up needing reinforcement is the short answer. The amount is a function of geometry, the taller/wider the rails are the less reinforcement needed. There are numerous ways to build of the reinforcement as well. You'll get the most weight/strength ratio out of unidirectional material.

I took a more efficient dollar and time route though at a slight weight sacrifice (but in reality it is a very small difference in the overall weight of the camper). I utilized some fiberglass pultrusions available on the market. My rails are 2" wide on the sides and they make a 2" U channel pultrusion with 9/16" sides that looked like a nicely made rail cap to me. ;) In terms of the calculation a single 1/8" pultrusion on the top of the rail should theoretically take the load based on my geometry but if there is one place in the camper I'd like to beef things up a bit this was it. The U channel provides a nice dish to lay up additional reinforcement into so I added another 1/8" strip of pultrusion into it along with a few plys of some fiberglass tape I had on hand that was 75% fiber content in the length direction (uni tape would have been even better but I already had this on hand and was just adding on at this point).

So in the end in terms of the calculation I'm 4-5 times the factor of strength required now. I'll wrap my fiberglass skins over top of the pultrusion rail when doing those laminates which will build more material up and tie it into the structure. Additionally the fold up cabover walls will be installed with continuous hinge along the rail that will be riveted into this pultruision which aside from mounting the hinge should sandwich the body skin between the pultrusion and hinge to have one more item holding things together. I've done my due diligence, now it's time to see how it performs in reality. ;)

The stresses at C should be low since it is such a large wall section there but I'll likely go overkill with extra plys of cloth when I glass things together there.

Birder

06-13-2011, 07:50 PM

Still not sure i fully understand,

Your U channel would do nothing on the underside of the overhang unless it goes into your sides so i take it that your 2" channel will sort of cap the top of the wall.

I still cant see it being strong enough but you are certainly more technical than i am and i dont think i could calculate such things.

For interest:

On the carbon covered foam camper he has a U channel in alloy on top of the wall so its a C all the way along so i can see how its going to work. On yours you only have a foot or so on the right hand side before the door opening.

I will keep watching with great interest.

pods8

06-14-2011, 02:19 AM

Yes I'm using the U channel to top the cap of the cabover rails (side walls on the cabover) and extending a bit onto the main wall top.

The way beams work is the upper and lower surfaces farthest from the nuetral axis carry the bulk of the forces applied in the structure. The amount of force the upper and lower surfaces can take is a function of their strength and the amount of material present. Since the cabover rails are thin, comparatively, an extra build up of material is required. On the lower surface of the cabover the forces are spread across the entire width of the cabover so although there isn't any additional laminate built up there specifically there is a moderate amount of material present never the less. (Note if I terminate the underside of the cabover at a right angle into the wall it would create a stress concentration though, I'll radius that transition some when I'm reassembling the glassed portions).

The other aspect of beams in the greater the distance from the nuetral axis the lower the forces are. So once I've transitioned into the main wall sections there is a much larger section for the forces to spread out across. The short chunk of wall before the door is an area I'll diligently assemble since it could see some higher stress in the material but in general the layup schedule I'm doing should carry quite a bit of load, theoretically of course. ;) We'll see.

I'm familiar with home skillet's carbon fiber camper. His build kicked off my interest I've just taken a bit different path with mine. From my chat's with him I don't believe he actually calculated his cabover frame as opposed to using a channel section similar to how the aluminum framed pop up manufacturers are doing. The amount of aluminum there should definitely be adequate, as he's demonstrated, but the key is it needs to remained tied into the structure. In my research I wasn't comfortable with the long term bond-ability of epoxy to aluminum in a home based setting for structural usage (certain anodizing processes developed by the airline manufacturers would be good it seems but again not something I'm going to duplicate at home). Because of the way he embedded that channel though the whole length of the camper though I don't really suspect he'll run into issues even if it does delaminate some over time. However although aluminum is light that is a decent hunk of metal he's got in there which I didn't see the need for when some selective build of up glass material would do the trick and makes me far less concerned about delamination. (Delamination is something that is a nagging concern of mine, not just in terms of epoxy to aluminum but also with the interface to the foam structure, that is why I've also embedded all the wood strips in the middle of large panels since the shear strength of wood is much greater than the foam).

More that one way to accomplish things, this just happens to be the route I've decided to utilize.

Birder

06-14-2011, 10:04 AM

Your wood strips are a great idea and i shall be using that in my build, however i shall be making interlocking joints where they cross using opposing cut outs that will slot together. My idea is to make the strips so i can get everything ready and numbered and then assemble it when the weather is perfect. I am thinking of putting corner triangles in as well.

Using foam i could not see how i could have a cabover as i felt it would sag and i dont want to use alloy beams.

I am not in a hurry so will keep watching your build as you seem to have all your ideas worked out

Thanks for your help and sharing

pods8

06-14-2011, 02:42 PM

Using foam i could not see how i could have a cabover as i felt it would sag and i dont want to use alloy beams.

That's the thing right there, I'm not using foam, I'm using fiberglass. In reality you can ignore the foam outright in your calculation and assume it's just air there since you're not trying to have it carry load (I didn't ignore it but you could since it really doesn't change anything in the numbers).

Here's screen shot of my finalized scenario, probably will make you want to cross your eyes but the "FoS" column of the lower left set of numbers is the factor of strength. I'm in the 6x range for all the glass components on that rail. That bottom skin is 18x (ie it it could take 18 times the stress before failure).

I've done my calculation for 800lb at the end of a 60" cantilever which is aggressive in itself. The wood strips I used between the rail and the bottom in assembly are actually what will start to fail first according the calculations and that is with 2000lb applied at the end of the 60" cantilever. We'll see how well that matches reality but ideally this should hold up just fine for "mom and dad time" or the kids jumping on mom/dad.

(Note this type of calculation is not my specialty, I pulled some help from a fellow familiar with home built composite airplane construction.)
http://i532.photobucket.com/albums/ee329/pods8/Pultrusioncabover.jpg

trackhead

06-14-2011, 03:17 PM

Has the build started yet? Or is it still in the design/theory stage?

pods8

06-14-2011, 04:35 PM

Has the build started yet? Or is it still in the design/theory stage?

Slowly coming along:
http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/58926-POD-Homebuilt-foam-core-fiberglass-skin-pop-up-camper-build-thread

The design thread is still being used to hash out design ideas so the build thread doesn't necessarily get cluttered to much with what I didn't do and more focused on what actually was done.

trackhead

06-14-2011, 05:11 PM

Slowly coming along:
http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/58926-POD-Homebuilt-foam-core-fiberglass-skin-pop-up-camper-build-thread

The design thread is still being used to hash out design ideas so the build thread doesn't necessarily get cluttered to much with what I didn't do and more focused on what actually was done.

Cool, thx, hadn't seen that.

pods8

07-14-2011, 07:10 PM

Paint is quite a ways out but I'm trying to think ahead on that. The exterior surface I'll fill/fair out to be visually appealing and likely hit with some sort of two part paint for durability.

However on the interior I was thinking I probably don't need to put the time/energy/money into a similar finish. In reality if I feather everything out with a random orbital sander I don't need to go nuts with filling/fairing as you're not likely to be eying up this finish like you would the exterior. Also I'm curious if a decent interior/exterior 100% acrylic latex or a floor/porch type epoxy modified acrylic latex might be a decent route to go (cost, ease of use, etc.). I'd likely spray it on with an airless sprayer for quick application and then maybe back roll it with a short nap roller to leave a little texture to things which would play into not fairing the hell out of everything to complete uniformity and instead just feathering things.

The interior paint needs to wear well and be moisture/uv resistant but isn't going see the full on elements.

Thoughts?

pods8

09-12-2011, 04:01 PM

Hi Pods8

I am following your build as i want to do something similar

http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=62984&d=1307961275

This is one of your images and i was wondering what you will be doing to stop failures at the marked points?

It seems to me that there will not be a lot of strength in points A & B and even point C could also fail.

Great build so far, i will be using your idea of 2" wide ply at joins and around openings.

I shall be using a 2 part epoxy swimming pool / Boat paint system for my final covering as its avaiable in colours and clear

So Birder I can comment a bit more on this query. I haven't yet load tested my cantilever since I'm still working on doing the panel to panel laminations. However I have glassed the exterior side of the joints on the cabover so far and decided to go ahead and pull my 200lb up by the front of the cabover. The rails hold the weight however I did notice I was getting a bit of flexing rearward of point "C" (the doorway opening) which I didn't car for as it would affect the fit of my door.

So I'm going to beef up the floor stiffness in this area. So along the side of the floor I've cut in a recess in which I'm going to embed a fiberglass u-channel. The backside of the channel should be about flush with the surface skins. Then over top of that I'm going to add some laminations of unidirectional carbon fiber running parallel with the channel. These laminations will be on the bottom & inside of the floor extending a few inches inward, along the side of the floor, and along the door threshold. Probably will overlap the areas the floor is stiffened by the walls a foot or so.

http://i532.photobucket.com/albums/ee329/pods8/2011-09-11_18-18-33_738.jpg