Habitat/Flip pac style top for 2004-2006 Jeep Unlimited (LJ)

[Jim K in PA]

At the suggestion of Mario Donovan, I am starting a seperate thread to flesh out the viability of a JK Habitat style hard top for the 2004-2006 Jeep Wrangler Unlimited (LJ).

In the JK thread, I posted the following data as a base point for estimating the potential market size for an LJ Habitat:



I just read through all 51 pages of this thread. The M&M team have done an excellent job bringing to market a very cool option for JK Unlimited owners.

As an owner of an LJ, I hope to see something similar adapted to these earlier Unlimited models. As to production, the Wrangler LJ was produced for three years (2003-2006). The LJ Rubicon was only produced in 2005 and 2006. There are production numbers available for market analysis. This data is taken from the Jeepforum.com, and are believed to be accurate, DC sourced numbers.

Production sold for the 04-06 LJ (by years)
2004 - 11,822 Unlimited
2005 - 7,450 Unlimited
2005 - 5,854 Unlimited Rubicon
2006 - 14,624 Unlimited
2006 - 6,742 Unlimited Rubicon

Totals:
33,896 - Unlimited
12,596 - Unlimited Rubicon
46,492 – Total

I hope this helps Martin and Mario with their decision making process with respect to building an LJ compatible Habitat.

To which Mario responded:



Thanks for the numbers, they correlate what I have found. At an optimistic purchase ratio of 3/10th of 1% for the universe of 46,492, the potential buyers only represent about 140 units... hmmm

This discussion would be best moved to its own thread to continue the dialog

So, here we are. I will follow this post with one outlining how/where/why the JK Habitat style option may or may not work on the LJ.

[Jim K in PA]

First, a bit of history (I promise to keep it short). This may help (me at least) in understanding what I am looking for from a Habitat top for our 2005 Jeep LJ Rubicon.

My wife and I are approaching a point in our lives where we will be taking more long distance vacations without our boys, who are at or near college age. We have been campers since we started dating in our teens, and still truly enjoy exploring and living outdoors. As we aged, we progressed from car camping, to decent ground tents, to just a few years ago getting a popup trailer camper for our family outings. Getting off the ground is much better for our backs and sleep quality, and we really enjoy our popup camper. But, we would rather not lug around so much equipment with the LJ, as it limits where we can take it, and is far more equipment than two people need to sleep comfortably. We are campers, not RV'ers . . . :sombrero:

So, that led us to pursue other options for combining long distance travel to and exploration of places accessible only via poor quality roads, trails, and perhaps no trails!

At this point we are quite comfortable with the idea of a RTT on our LJ. We have no mobility issues, and the quality of the RTT options available now is excellent.

Having said that, when I showed my wife the JK Habitat, she was really intrigued by the idea of accessing the sleeping area from within the truck. We seriously considered selling our 2005 LJ and buying a used JK Rubicon Unlimited in order to incorporate this innovation. However, due to a number of practical and subjective/emotional reasons, we are not going to do that.

If, in fact, the potential market for an LJ Habitat is as small as Mario perceives it to be, then it is probably not a viable pursuit from a business perspective.

From a practical standpoint, the LJ Habitat presents a couple of unique challenges to implementing it:

First, no rear side doors - access to the tent area will most likely have to be gained through a roof hatch at the rear of the vehicle. This means that any items stored back there must be moved in order to afford ingress/egress.

Second, the roof top is shorter than a JK - the stock hard top on an LJ is only about 83" long. This is not necessarily a problem, but the tent top will be smaller on an LJ than it is in the JK Habitat. I mention this because it means that JK Habitat components will not likely be useable on an LJ Habitat.

Well, there are my dos centavos on the subject. I have a few more thoughts and ideas, but I would like to hear from other LJ owners, as well as Mario and Martyn, relative to the pros and cons of developing and using an LJ Habitat.

Have a great day! :)

[thebrassnuckles]

what is the lenght of the bed o a FP? I havent ever measured mine.

couldnt you just get an old flippac and chop that sucker up (which is my plan for my 1st gen 4runner) and make it fit?

If the length of the bed is not longer than the length of the jeep top it would be pretty "simple"..

take the flip pac shell and cut it to the required shape of a jeep top, and you are done...:coffeedrink:

[Jim K in PA]

Hmmm . . . nothin' but me and the crickets I guess . . . :coffee:

brass - I was kind of looking for more than a sawzall and silicone approach to the top . . . :) No offense, but I really want a good finished appearance that will hold up for many years and tens if not hundreds of thousands of miles. Any solution that gets close to that criteria will not be easy or "simple". But I appreciate your input, nonetheless. :sombrero:

I am going to build my own rack for the RTT and whatever else I must keep on the roof. With no reason to keep the LJ stock, I am seriously considering my alternate plan, which is to stretch the tub 10-12" behind the rear wheels. That will permit the installation of a second 21 gallon fuel tank, as well as add more interior space. A custom top will be needed, but I think I can adapt the OEM soft top frame, and have some custom canvas made up for it. I would prefer a hard top for overland travel, but the canvas will keep the rain and snow out too.

[thebrassnuckles]

well... I meant use fiberglass to get it to fit...

haha..

but yeah.. My flippac 4runner might have a bit of a homemade feel to it in the end.. but thats fine with me... I plan on beating on it.

[Haggis]

No your not alone, a few of us LJ owners expressed interest in the concept when Martyn and Mario first started discussing the idea for the JK. We're approaching the same point as you as our kids will be heading in their own direction and it will soon be just us. Having an intergrated sleeping platform instead of a drag inducing, top heavy RTT would be nice. I really liked the idea of a Flippac for the LJ, but I have thought upon it and have a few doubts about it's actual practicality. Mainly accessing the tent through the interior without unloading gear of having to preform contortionists like moves. If there was a way to open the top and enter the habitat from the outside I think it would be more practical. I don't really want anything were I had to unload gear in the rain or snow to use the sleeping area.

[elcoyote]

The shortness of the LJ top can be overcome with a slight nose bump out over the windshield. Ideally you want to have a mattress length of 80" so it is conceivable that a reasonable sleep area can be created. That being said, using some common parts may be a possibility. That actually is the easy part. Making the lower half, the shell portion that can handle the stresses exerted by the torsion rod and fits properly to the vehicle is far more complicated. Much more difficult than a pick up truck shell that merely has to fit a 2 dimensional mating surface. The contours and sealing of of the doors and windshield are challenges.

[Jim K in PA]

Mark - I agree and understand. The side door access of the JK Habitat is what makes it work, IMO. For rear access, I think a hard top that included an entire replacement of the rear window and swinging gate would need to be designed, with perhaps an extension of the cap to the rear beyond the back panel of the truck. That would potentially allow access from outside without unloading the cargo area. However, that would create departure angle problems, and probably look like poop . . . I don't want to turn my LJ into a Class C RV.

Mario - the structural and sealing challenges are clearly where the engineering time goes. Are/were those challenges easier to overcome with the JK? As for the overhang, I would actually prefer the top to overhang at the rear roof area, but I suppose it makes little difference.

I guess a tub stretch and a CJ-8 soft top are in my future. Not such a bad alternative.

[elcoyote]

In my mind, access is via a hatch directly above the front seats between the windshield frame and the roll bar causing no disruption of cargo area.

[Jim K in PA]

In my mind, access is via a hatch directly above the front seats between the windshield frame and the roll bar causing no disruption of cargo area.

Hmm - that could work. It puts the access hatch further forward than the JK unit, but I don't see that as a problem. Access from the passenger side door would be obviously easier without the steering wheel. The passenger seat on the '05 and '06 models also is a fold and slide, so perhaps climbing in from the passenger rear footwell area would reduce the contortion factor?

[elcoyote]

Hmm - that could work. It puts the access hatch further forward than the JK unit, but I don't see that as a problem. Access from the passenger side door would be obviously easier without the steering wheel. The passenger seat on the '05 and '06 models also is a fold and slide, so perhaps climbing in from the passenger rear footwell area would reduce the contortion factor?

Where's the roll bar?

[Jim K in PA]

Where's the roll bar?

The main roll hoop is approximately 31" from the windshield header. There are two forward running cage tubes that connect the corners of the main hoop to the corners of the windshield frame. There is 41" maximum between the two parallel tubes. This part of the Wrangler structure is the same for all TJ and LJ platforms.

If this is not the dimensional data you were looking for, let me know what you need.

[Haggis]

My wife and I went out last night to guage the possibility of accessing a camper top from the passenger's seat. It's doable with the seat in either in the seated or folded foreward postion, but either way a larger perosn would have some trouble. My wife preferred the seat in the seated postion as she is on the petite side and thinks the descent down wouild be easier for her that way. Still, she mentioned she'd like access from the outside so as to not be mucking up the interior.

[Jim K in PA]

My wife and I went out last night to guage the possibility of accessing a camper top from the passenger's seat. It's doable with the seat in either in the seated or folded foreward postion, but either way a larger perosn would have some trouble.

Getting a "leg up" is going to be an issue with the seat up or folded forward. I had thought about looking into one of the other Chrysler products for a fold-flat passenger seat. I think they came in the Magnum and the mini-vans. I have no idea if would fit in a Jeep, or if it would make access easier.




My wife preferred the seat in the seated postion as she is on the petite side and thinks the descent down wouild be easier for her that way. Still, she mentioned she'd like access from the outside so as to not be mucking up the interior.

I think this is an issue with the JK Habitat as well. With the LJ, it becomes more of a problem due to the seat back not folding flat.

Are we trying to put lipstick on a pig here? I don't want to waste Mario's time (or anyone else's) on a lost cause.

[elcoyote]

I think this is an issue with the JK Habitat as well. With the LJ, it becomes more of a problem due to the seat back not folding flat.

It is no problem through the rear passenger door on the JK Habitat with the seat folded flat. In fact easier than if the access were through the rear due to the very small area between the rear roll bar and the rear of the shell.

[Jim K in PA]

It is no problem through the rear passenger door on the JK Habitat with the seat folded flat. In fact easier than if the access were through the rear due to the very small area between the rear roll bar and the rear of the shell.

Mario - the issue is that the LJ front passenger seat does not fold flat like the JK rear seat. The subject that Mark (and his wife) expressed concern about is not the access to the roof hatch per se, but the collateral mess created when accessing the roof hatch via the front seat of the LJ. Rain, snow, mud, etc. will be tracked into/onto the seat bottom if the seat is up, or onto the rear of the seat back if the seat is tipped forward. Access in the JK via the rear seat folded flat is fine. IMO you would still track mud/muck/debris into and onto the seat back in the JK, but it is less of an "issue" since it is the back seat, not the front passenger seat.

I know I started this thread, but the more we flesh this out, the more I am liking an RTT with an extension over the ladder like the Eezi-Awn T-top. :o

[Haggis]

Exactly Jim. Not only is it an access issue but one of keeping the interior liveable. Which is important here on the East side of the country (or anywhere else for that matter) were rain, snow, muck, forest litter and mud are everyday concerns when setting up camp in our forested enviroment.

[haven]

"We seriously considered selling our 2005 LJ and buying a used JK Rubicon Unlimited..."

I'd also consider a Toyota Tacoma 4x4, to which you can add a Four Wheel Campers slide in or an Adventure Trailers Flippac.

Advantages of this approach include
-- no development costs of a custom one-off solution
-- option to carry four passengers instead of two
-- camper easy to remove so you can use the truck for other purposes
-- V8 power available in 2010 Tacoma

Tacodoc's lengthy build thread has lots of information about the Tacoma with bed-mounted tent, and FlipPac
http://expeditionportal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=521

[Jim K in PA]

Thanks for the input Haven. Vehicle selection is a touchy and emotion filled subject, and one that I do not want this thread to devolve into. I am not at all dogmatic with respect to my choice of vehicle. In fact, I really wanted to avoid getting into our personal justifications for staying with the Jeep in this thread, but perhaps for others following along, this is a good point to outline what they are.

In a nutshell, what has us sticking with the Jeep is first and foremost, off-road capabilities. We go off-road quite a bit, and not just on fire roads and dirt trails. We have become accustomed to the Jeeps mountain goat-like ability to crawl through, over, and around anything. The LJ Rubicon has solid front and rear axles with 4.11:1 gearing, 4 wheel disk brakes, selectable lockers, 4.0:1 low range, copious low RPM torque, excellent approach, breakover, and departure angles, and narrow track/body width. ALL of these features are things we use, need, and would want in another vehicle, regardless of brand.

A Tacoma would certainly give us the additional size and capacity for the camping portion of the equation. But, it would come at a sacrifice in the form of limitations in the capability of the rig in tough, tight, off-road situations. Now, I am sure there will be 1000 Tacoma owners ready to duct tape me to a Saguaro :sombrero: for saying that, but I really mean no disrespect for those who have, use, and enjoy those rigs. To duplicate just the solid front axle, lockers and low-range gearing that we already have with the LJ would cost at least as much and perhaps more than the custom solutions I am looking at for the LJ. And then we have a vehicle with a longer wheelbase and concurrently reduced B/O, approach and departure angles and is wider as well. We will not be using the LJ for anything more than travel adventures for two people, so the extra length of the double cab Taco for that purpose is moot.

As with just about everything in life and overland travel, it's all about the compromises you are willing to make. A gain in one aspect almost invariably comes at a cost in another. If we did not already have the LJ, and 4 years of experience in using it off-road, an extra-cab Tacoma would be HIGH on my list of trucks to consider for long distance overland travel. However, at this point the LJ Rubicon will be our platform to continue with and build upon.

The Habitat/Flippac for an LJ is just one means of accomplishing one particular task. While the initial reaction I had to the JK Habitat was that it would make an excellent addition to the LJ, upon further analysis it may not be such a viable solution. And that's OK! The purpose of intelligent, productive forums such as this one is to have logical discussions about these kinds of ideas. If an idea that starts out sounding fantastic morphs into not such a good idea, it is far better to do that here than with a sawzall in your hand and your Jeep in pieces! :ylsmoke:

<sigh> Sorry for the ramble. I tend to do that.

[The Freeak]

What is preventing the manufacturer of the "Flippac" from simply offering a slightly shorter version of their existing tent?

If a version were made that retrofitted to CJ/YJ/ TJ AND LJ's the market would expand significantly.


-Chris

[Beowulf]

If an LJ version was ever built I think outside ingress/egress would be the only way to go. There is just not that much room inside to have the back seat in for a child/dog plus all your gear behind that, and then have room to climb up and into the tent. Access from the outside would make this much easier. Plus there would be plenty of room for 4 people once deployed without the need for moving floor panels.

[TCM]

I also agree that exterior entry makes the most sense for an LJ Habitat. The ladder could easily be stored on top the roof and would likely not be visible under most circumstances. A Eezi Awn/Hannibal type ladder would be very compact and do little to increase wind resistance or noise. But if interior entry is the goal then doing so from the front passenger seat is the best option by far.

[Jim K in PA]

In taking a larger view, if interior access to the Habitat is problematic with an LJ due to the reasons cited above (tracking detritis into the vehicle, contortions needed to ascend/descend, et al.), and exterior access is preferred in order to avoid the above, then it seems false economy to incorporate a fixed Habitat-like stucture to the LJ. For a little more than half the (current JK) cost of the Habitat, an adequate roof rack and an Eezi-Awn 1400 T-top can be put on the LJ that will accomplish the same thing, with just as much interior tent space as the Habitat. A rack and RTT are also removable for when the RTT and rack are unnecessary. CLosing up a wet RTT will not bring any moisture into the vehicle, while the Habitat inevitably will.

Hmph. Unless Mario has some specific ideas or input to convince me otherwise, I may have talked myself out of the very thing I started this thread for. :(

[Haggis]

In taking a larger view, if interior access to the Habitat is problematic with an LJ due to the reasons cited above (tracking detritus into the vehicle, contortions needed to ascend/descend, et al.), and exterior access is preferred in order to avoid the above, then it seems false economy to incorporate a fixed Habitat-like structure to the LJ. For a little more than half the (current JK) cost of the Habitat, an adequate roof rack and an Eezi-Awn 1400 T-top can be put on the LJ that will accomplish the same thing, with just as much interior tent space as the Habitat. A rack and RTT are also removable for when the RTT and rack are unnecessary. Closing up a wet RTT will not bring any moisture into the vehicle, while the Habitat inevitably will.

Hmph. Unless Mario has some specific ideas or input to convince me otherwise, I may have talked myself out of the very thing I started this thread for. :(

I've arrived at the same place myself. While I like the idea of an aerodynamic camping solution that's always ready at a moments notice for the LJ over a bulky RTT, I can see the same inherent problems that you've pointed out in your last post Jim. Since I don't want to mount an RTT on our Jeep, the idea of a quickly deployed ground tent is probably still the best solution for us. Now if a great concept could come to fruition I'd definitely be interested.

You know, I came to the same conclusion about a FlipPac for our Tundra. I was really thinking hard about one but the realities of living in a wet environment have left me doubtful of how happy I'd be with one.

[TACODOC]

You know, I came to the same conclusion about a FlipPac for our Tundra. I was really thinking hard about one but the realities of living in a wet environment have left me doubtful of how happy I'd be with one.

If you treat your OEM FP tent with NikWax and deploy the rain cover, they are bomb proof in the rain. My trip to the Olympic Peninsula is WA proved the concept to me.

Now, with the "Gen II" tent materials in use by AT, a rain cover is no longer required as they are as water tight as any high end RTT on the market.

.02

[Beowulf]

The fixed Habitat with outside access would have no opening to the inside of the vehicle and therefore would have the same benefit as an RTT in keeping moisture out of the vehicle. Also, you are missing out on the other benefits of a Habitat. A streamlined roof will add in aerodynamics maintaining current fuel economy and wind noise. The habitat will be less susceptible to the elements in the stored position than an Eezi-Awn style RTT. Additionally, the Habitat will weigh less over all than a hardtop, rack, and RTT. That weight will also have a lower center of gravity. Not only will the rack and RTT impact COG it will also inhibit access to some parking garages and many home garages.

If a rack/RTT was always the best way to go, the habitat for the JK would not exist. Personally, I am willing to pay extra for all the pros and cons of the Habitat over a rack/RTT system and if it is made for the LJ I will definitely purchase one.

[Haggis]

The fixed Habitat with outside access would have no opening to the inside of the vehicle and therefore would have the same benefit as an RTT in keeping moisture out of the vehicle. Also, you are missing out on the other benefits of a Habitat. A streamlined roof will add in aerodynamics maintaining current fuel economy and wind noise. The habitat will be less susceptible to the elements in the stored position than an Eezi-Awn style RTT. Additionally, the Habitat will weigh less over all than a hardtop, rack, and RTT. That weight will also have a lower center of gravity. Not only will the rack and RTT impact COG it will also inhibit access to some parking garages and many home garages.

If a rack/RTT was always the best way to go, the habitat for the JK would not exist. Personally, I am willing to pay extra for all the pros and cons of the Habitat over a rack/RTT system and if it is made for the LJ I will definitely purchase one.

This approach makes the most sense to me and would be perfect when it's just my wife and I mucking about here in a few years. The LJ with a set-up like this would be great for two people.


If you treat your OEM FP tent with NikWax and deploy the rain cover, they are bomb proof in the rain. My trip to the Olympic Peninsula is WA proved the concept to me.

Now, with the "Gen II" tent materials in use by AT, a rain cover is no longer required as they are as water tight as any high end RTT on the market.

.02

Good gravy, Dave quit making me want one of these things. :elkgrin:

I'd really like to see an AT FP in person some day, I have a hard time committing to something that I haven't been able to run my hands over first. Any chance a certain silver Tacoma DC will be heading east this year?

[elcoyote]

There is a design difference between the Flippac and the Habitat. The Habitat has hard ceiling above the passengers when closed whereas the Flippac has a fabric canopy that supports the fabric when closed. Water ingress through the hatch into the passenger compartment is not expected and has not been seen in our tests. We are pursuing R&D to create a flysheet for those users who are in extremely wet environments like PNW who may not be in a position to open up the top after their trips to let them air out as should be done with any tent. For example if the only dry place were your garage but you could not deploy your Habitat in it due to height restrictions. In that case you would want to have a removable fly to minimize water contact with the tent and in your garage you could then open the Habitat shell partially, say 12" or so to allow air to circulate.

[TCM]

I too believe an LJ habitat offers many advantages when compared to a RTT mounted to a rack. The advantages include: a lower total weight, a lower total height, a lower center of gravity, better aerodynamics, reduced wind noise, less susceptibility to damage from trail obstructions, quicker deployment and stowage with no cover to take off and put back on, and improved aesthetics via the integrated design.

As for interior access I would not put it on my personal list of advantages even if if were to have this feature. Either way I have to climb up into the tent and unless the vehicle were to have living space inside, interior access is no better than a ladder on the outside. Neither the LJ or the JK have any interior living space thus a ladder is perfectly reasonable. This is especially true when one considers that the tent must be deployed from the exterior thus exposing you to the elements regardless of the entry location.

If an LJ Habitat makes it to production I will most certainly buy one.

Martyn, Mario, how many committed pre orders with deposit do you need to make an LJ Habitat viable?

[AmericaOverland]

If a rack/RTT was always the best way to go, the habitat for the JK would not exist. Personally, I am willing to pay extra for all the pros and cons of the Habitat over a rack/RTT system and if it is made for the LJ I will definitely purchase one.

As would I!

[BPage]

I would pre-order one aswell.

However I would prefer the FlipPac version over the Habitat. Would like to be able to stand up on the inside to put my clothes on.


:)

[r_w]

What about a universal habitat? Use the lid from the JK and/or a flippac and build a rack mount base. Like a hard-shell RTT that sleeps 4-8. It could work for ANY jeep or SUV or van or... so your market potential is bigger. Now you have the choice of a BIG soft top or a small hardtop, but no big hardtop. If you could build it so it doesn't need loadbars (just feet from your rack man. of choice) you could get it pretty darn low and aerodynamic.

Just my wish.

[Beowulf]

That is a pretty interesting idea acutally. Plus, I'm sure overall cost would be less as well.

[elcoyote]

The idea has been explored. Experimentation will proceed after the Habitat hits its production stride.

[homemade]

What about a universal habitat? Use the lid from the JK and/or a flippac and build a rack mount base. Like a hard-shell RTT that sleeps 4-8. It could work for ANY jeep or SUV or van or... so your market potential is bigger. Now you have the choice of a BIG soft top or a small hardtop, but no big hardtop. If you could build it so it doesn't need loadbars (just feet from your rack man. of choice) you could get it pretty darn low and aerodynamic.

Just my wish.


Already been done. When I first heard about the flippac a couple yrs ago and googled it I found a web site, I suppose from FRP, that had a flippac top mounted on a flat tray base. As I recall it had a picture of it on a Astro van and advertised it as compatable with regular factory roof racks. I can't find the page anymore so I suppose it was taken down but you could always check with FRP to see if they would build one for you.

[r_w]

Already been done. When I first heard about the flippac a couple yrs ago and googled it I found a web site, I suppose from FRP, that had a flippac top mounted on a flat tray base. As I recall it had a picture of it on a Astro van and advertised it as compatable with regular factory roof racks. I can't find the page anymore so I suppose it was taken down but you could always check with FRP to see if they would build one for you.

I would much prefer an AT version, for a multitude of reasons...

[homemade]

I would much prefer an AT version, for a multitude of reasons...


Point well taken. But if someone is in the market, as I assumed you were from your post, and wanted it sooner rather than later then FRP might be an option.

[elcoyote]

Already been done. When I first heard about the flippac a couple yrs ago and googled it I found a web site, I suppose from FRP, that had a flippac top mounted on a flat tray base. As I recall it had a picture of it on a Astro van and advertised it as compatable with regular factory roof racks. I can't find the page anymore so I suppose it was taken down but you could always check with FRP to see if they would build one for you.

This is true. Only one was ever built, it was called Flippac Jr. Despite my urgings, I have not been able to get them to make another.

When we get to it, our version will use the same tent and fabric from the Habitat.

[r_w]

Point well taken. But if someone is in the market, as I assumed you were from your post, and wanted it sooner rather than later then FRP might be an option.

I am not in that much of a rush. I will "settle" for a normal RTT if the trip comes together before AT does. I haven't had a good batting average lately for trips actually happening :(

The FP jr would have part of the benefit--the hard shell--but not the Habitat tent design. That tent design is SO much better than the old designs.

[Calin.Macrinici]

Just so we know, I am still watching this and wondering if it'll happen -- the JK Habitat is "almost there", maybe the time'll come for this to be rediscussed?

Technicalities: I was looking at the JK Habitat and it does have one or two external side doors in some of the later pictures, which would fit nicely with the LJ interior size (or the lack thereof). I still believe the best approach would be a hard floor, a roof that flips from the front to the back, not over the bonnet (with support rods angled back towards the C pilars) and a ladder that can be mounted to the side or at the back -- if at the back it could be permanently attached to the roof and hinged so it comes down (watch your head) when you flip the roof open. This would potentially give enough length at the front (roughly over the cabin) for a bed and enough length at the back for getting in and playing board games in the rain. The extra would be some sort of an extra awning above the ladder. This will make it quite similar in functionality to an RTT with almost none of the drawbacks, that would definitely justify the higher cost. The entire top could be taken off and replaced with the original one when not needed (only asking for some storage space in return), or it can be left on permanently.

If it flips to the back, a roof shaped somewhat like Jeff Sherb's (Gr8t Tops) Safari top would look cool and it could nicely mask a bit of the required gain in height. Well, a top segmented like the Safari top would be even better -- can you imagine having the LJ Habitat on top but no sides? :)

No worries, I'll keep dreaming and watching this...

[Beowulf]

Calin,

I agree that outside ingress is the only viable way of doing with the LJ. There is plenty of room over the top to have a bed, it is more than long enough. Only hangup will be getting enough people willing to preorder.

AND, I totally agree that something shaped like the Safari Top would be completely fit the design concept.

[Calin.Macrinici]

Calin,

I agree that outside ingress is the only viable way of doing with the LJ. There is plenty of room over the top to have a bed, it is more than long enough. Only hangup will be getting enough people willing to preorder.

AND, I totally agree that something shaped like the Safari Top would be completely fit the design concept.

Indeed. The Safari Top would not only work beautifully from a design and functionality standpoint (shape looks perfect for an LJ and the extra height helps with the tent inside), but its modular concept would be quite an interesting addition: apart from the cool factor of running only the roof (no sides) but still have your flip pac with you, it would probably fit with the "flip pac on-a-rack" or "flip pac Jr" idea that was debated in this thread in the past -- a stand alone flip pac that can be attached to a rack. If you take that as a possiblitity then the flip pac roof that is supported on the roll bars so does not need sides makes sense (check out Jeff's excellent drawings and arguments re: suporting a Safari top roof rack through the roll bar). Maybe cheaper to manufacture (if possible even as an "add-on" to the Gr8Tops Safari Top, use the same sides and the roof is interchangeable)? Or maybe more applications, like make the on-the-rack flip pac and the LJ flip pac the same mold so it can also be mounted on a rack, this way you're not limiting this run to the not-so-large LJ market?

I should probably stop now, right? :)

[Bigjerm]

I too will be waiting to hear about this after the JK top gets going!

[jscherb]

Indeed. The Safari Top would not only work beautifully from a design and functionality standpoint (shape looks perfect for an LJ and the extra height helps with the tent inside), but its modular concept would be quite an interesting addition: apart from the cool factor of running only the roof (no sides) but still have your flip pac with you, it would probably fit with the "flip pac on-a-rack" or "flip pac Jr" idea that was debated in this thread in the past -- a stand alone flip pac that can be attached to a rack. If you take that as a possiblitity then the flip pac roof that is supported on the roll bars so does not need sides makes sense (check out Jeff's excellent drawings and arguments re: suporting a Safari top roof rack through the roll bar). Maybe cheaper to manufacture (if possible even as an "add-on" to the Gr8Tops Safari Top, use the same sides and the roof is interchangeable)? Or maybe more applications, like make the on-the-rack flip pac and the LJ flip pac the same mold so it can also be mounted on a rack, this way you're not limiting this run to the not-so-large LJ market?

I should probably stop now, right? :)

Calin,
I've never published this concept drawing before, it's one of the many camper concept drawings I did back when I was designing the Safari Cab... ;)

http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc163/jscherb/Gaucho/Safari/SafariFlipPac1.jpg

Jeff

[Calin.Macrinici]

Calin,
I've never published this concept drawing before, it's one of the many camper concept drawings I did back when I was designing the Safari Cab... ;)

http://i213.photobucket.com/albums/cc163/jscherb/Gaucho/Safari/SafariFlipPac1.jpg

Jeff

Does it have to be that long, though? Considering that in a "regular" sized popup you get pretty much twice the length of the LJ, I believe you can safely subtract the opening for the door (only if you decide the ingress should be from the floor and not from the back wall of the tent), some storage space (not a lot needed, since you are not reducing your trunk storage space) and still have enough room for the mattress and bedding.

Knowing the work you did with the Safari cab, do you believe that a popup opening to the rear, with a ladder on the rear (either through the floor or through the wall of the tent but no entry from inside the LJ) would be functional? Could it be made to have enough support when opened? And (quite important, I believe :)), could this be simply a replacement for the Safari top? Not the whole Safari cab, just the top, i.e. keep the side walls (either the hard sides or the rollups you thought of) and probably the roll bar supports (that you designed for the roof rack) and just change the roof from the "regular" Safari top to the "popup" one.

[jscherb]

Does it have to be that long, though? Considering that in a "regular" sized popup you get pretty much twice the length of the LJ, I believe you can safely subtract the opening for the door (only if you decide the ingress should be from the floor and not from the back wall of the tent), some storage space (not a lot needed, since you are not reducing your trunk storage space) and still have enough room for the mattress and bedding.
As shown in the drawing, it's the JK Flip Pac with inside access, and it is pretty long. I'm not sure how much value the inside access would really have, so if you had access from the outside, it could be shorter.


Knowing the work you did with the Safari cab, do you believe that a popup opening to the rear, with a ladder on the rear (either through the floor or through the wall of the tent but no entry from inside the LJ) would be functional? Could it be made to have enough support when opened? And (quite important, I believe :)), could this be simply a replacement for the Safari top? Not the whole Safari cab, just the top, i.e. keep the side walls (either the hard sides or the rollups you thought of) and probably the roll bar supports (that you designed for the roof rack) and just change the roof from the "regular" Safari top to the "popup" one.
Yes, it would just be a replacement for the Safari Cab roof panel - the sides, door surrounds and rear barn door would be the same parts as the regular Safari Cab, and you could swap the standard roof panel for the Flip Pac one at will. There would be a base for the Flip Pac that would mate with the Safari Cab panels and the top of the windshield, but that's a pretty straightforward piece to make. It's likely the standard Safari Cab roll-bar roof-rack supports would work as well. Overall a pretty straightforward adaptation of stock Safari Cab parts.

[Calin.Macrinici]

As shown in the drawing, it's the JK Flip Pac with inside access, and it is pretty long. I'm not sure how much value the inside access would really have, so if you had access from the outside, it could be shorter.

Yes, it would just be a replacement for the Safari Cab roof panel - the sides, door surrounds and rear barn door would be the same parts as the regular Safari Cab, and you could swap the standard roof panel for the Flip Pac one at will. There would be a base for the Flip Pac that would mate with the Safari Cab panels and the top of the windshield, but that's a pretty straightforward piece to make. It's likely the standard Safari Cab roll-bar roof-rack supports would work as well. Overall a pretty straightforward adaptation of stock Safari Cab parts.

Well, now that would be something worth waiting for, I believe. I know you said the RTT on the Safari cab would be a cheaper option (and I definitely agree with you), however this idea with interchangeable tops would work great for people who want a popup -- even better than the full-cab Habitat replacement for JKs :)

Thanks Jeff!

[BPage]

This is exactly what I was looking for Jeff!

"If you build it, they will come!"... And I will be one of the first. Especially if you include the barn style double doors on the back.
:sombrero: