The 2011 Jeep LACK OF DIESEL thread....

[Metcalf]

Come one, come all, rant and vent about the LACK of Jeep allowing us to have the option to buy a DIESEL jeep Wrangler in 2011 here!!!!!!

The new figures for the 2011 Jeep Wrangler Diesel where released at Jeep UK.

2-Door Wrangler Sport Diesel Manual. ( adjusted for US gallons )
33.1 mpg combined cycle
36.2 mpg urban cycle
28.3 mpg city cycle

4-door Wrangler Sport Diesel Auto ( adjusted for US gallons )
24.7 mpg combined cycle
29.4 mpg urban cycle
19.3 mpg city cycle

Why oh why won't you listed Jeep! Personally, I will be giving an earful to the Jeep engineers at Easter Jeep Safari this spring!

Edit: after looking over some more specs, it looks like the 4-door figures above are for the OLDER diesel engine, not the 2011 version. 2011 version specs for the 2-door as far as I can tell.

[Desert Dan]

Jeep should offer 3 engines in the JK's in the USA

Gas V6
Gas V8
Diesel

[scootr29]

I love my Diesel Grand Cherokee....do not think it helps the Wrangler situation though....

http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww288/scootr29/DSC08381.jpg

[Storz]

I love my Diesel Grand Cherokee....do not think it helps the Wrangler situation though....

http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww288/scootr29/DSC08381.jpg

What years could you get a diesel GC and Liberty...?

[Metcalf]

Some specs on the new 2011 2.8 CRD that we ARE NOT getting in the USA. We make them here, but we can't sell them here......

197hp @ 3600rpm
340 ft lbs from 1600-2600rpm ( auto version )
0-62mph - 11.2 seconds

More info from the press release

Jeep Wrangler and Wrangler Unlimited with New 2.8-liter Diesel Engine, Stop/Start Technology, New Interior and New Body-color Hard Top

Jeep continues to refine the successful Wrangler formula by combining its legendary, benchmark capability with a new 2.8-liter turbo diesel engine with fuel-saving Stop/Start technology, a new and upgraded interior, and a new body-color hard top for the popular Sahara model.

Jeep Wrangler and Wrangler Unlimited now offer a new 2.8-liter turbo diesel engine for markets outside North America. This new engine improves power to 200 hp DIN (147 kW) at 3,600 rpm, a 13-percent improvement over the prior 2.8-liter diesel engine. Torque for the new engine comes in at 410 N•m at 2,000-3,200 rpm with the six-speed manual transmission and 460 N•m at 1,600-2,600 rpm with the W5A580 five-speed automatic transmission.

The proven W5A580 automatic transmission is new to Wrangler and will deliver smooth shifts and optimum fuel consumption. The W5A580 transmission includes adaptive electronic control or Electronic Range Select (ERS) driver-interactive manual control and an electronically modulated torque converter clutch.

Jeep Wrangler's diesel engine, when paired with the manual transmission, incorporates Stop/Start technology – the first application of this technology on a Chrysler Group vehicle. With Stop/Start, the engine is shut off when the vehicle is stopped, the shift gear is in Neutral, and the clutch is released. The engine then restarts automatically when the clutch pedal is depressed. Drivers can deactivate the technology via a button on the dashboard, and an icon displays in the instrument panel to indicate the Stop/Start status.

An upgraded starter and alternator improve durability, and a DC/DC power converter maintains electronic feature functionality while the vehicle is stopped. Stop/Start technology improves fuel efficiency and reduces CO2 emissions by managing the amount of time the engine runs. For the new Jeep Wrangler family, fuel economy is improved by up to 13 percent, and CO2 emissions are reduced by up to 14 percent.

Other improvements and features incorporated into the new Euro V, 2.8-liter diesel engine include:
• Four valves per cylinder and double overhead camshaft (DOHC) with belt drive
• 1800-bar common-rail fuel injection system
• Piezo electric injectors
• Variable geometry turbocharger
• New composite intake manifold
• New exhaust gas recirculation (EGR) system
• Reduced friction ring pack
• Electric swirl control
• Oil and exhaust temperature sensors
• Standard diesel particulate filter (DPF)
• Additional adjustments for improved noise, vibration and harshness (NVH)

The new Jeep Wrangler continues to be the most capable off-road vehicle and now brings a significantly quieter cabin, pleasing on-road ride and handling and reduced overall NVH. Wrangler now gives customers a driving experience similar to the mid-size Jeep Cherokee, but with the 4x4 mastery to handle any extreme off-road conditions.

Jeep Wrangler's interior highlights include a redesigned instrument panel and new storage areas with improved ergonomics and upgraded materials. A new console and upgraded door armrest areas boast comfortable touch points, while a redesigned center stack is easier to reach and operate. Automatic temperature control, heated seats and power heated mirrors are now available, and drivers and passengers will enjoy enhanced visibility courtesy of larger rear windows.

New steering-wheel controls allow the driver to operate the radio, speed control, hands-free phone and other vehicle functions while keeping hands on the wheel. A new USB device interface connects to storage devices (thumb drives and most MP3 players) for use with the vehicle's Media Center, which now includes streaming Bluetooth audio.

In line with traditional Jeep design, hex-head bolts are utilized throughout the interior and are used to mount a "Jeep, Since 1941" inlay onto the new passenger grab handle.

To provide a more premium appearance, Jeep Wrangler Sahara models boast a new, premium, body-color hard top. In addition, several new Wrangler colors will be available, including Deep Cherry Red Crystal, Detonator Yellow, Sahara Tan, Cosmos Blue and Bright White.

The new Jeep Wrangler and Wrangler Unlimited will be available in markets outside North America starting in early 2011.

[Metcalf]

Diesel liberty, 05-06, I think.
Diesel Grand, 06-09, I think.

[srmitchell]

My god I want one!

Tan 4 door to go please. :Wow1:

[JeffRRC]

I just read an article in Motor Trend that says Jeep will be bringing diesels to the U.S. in the near future. I will believe it when they are sitting in the dealers lots. However, I will buy one when they bring them. Hurry up, already!

[x32792]

I just read an article in Motor Trend that says Jeep will be bringing diesels to the U.S. in the near future. I will believe it when they are sitting in the dealers lots. However, I will buy one when they bring them. Hurry up, already!

x2

[utjeeper]

I love my 08 JKU Rubicon and plan on keeping it for years. But if a diesel engine is introduced, I will be looking to trade up assuming they have not ruined the off road capability with other changes.

[charlieaarons]

Land Cruiser nuts have been crying for diesel 70 series in the US for DECADES.
Look where it has gotten them - nowhere.
I'm thinking of buying a 1HD-T powered 79 series pickup from Proffitt's Cruisers.


Charlie

[4Rescue]

A Diesel JKU-Overland (complete with the in tegrated rack/roll-cage, and a Manual tranny - Or just a 3dr J8 with Factory Lockers and SB-Disco's again, MANUAL TRANNY please) could make me back into a Jeep owner again eh.

As the the previous post about Jeep saying they're bringing Diesel's over here: I'll belive it when I see it. I read an article in C&D a few months/issues back that said something about them bringing a Diesel-hybrid to market and with America's crazy misunderstanding of Diesel's and thier craze over "hybrids" (most US buyers seem to think this is a single type of tech. when it's anything but) I could see that happening long beofre we get a proper stand-alone Diesel power-plant... Too bad really, diesel could very well save the planet But hey, that's just my crazy theory and capitalism is far more important then the world having a clean safe, readily available energy source eh (I'm thinking Bio-haul here... Imagine if all the little island nations could just build large algae tanks and make enough fuel to run the whole nation on a years crop... No more BP/Exxon Vadez like disasters etc... Like I said, Money is more important then the safety and health of the planet eh ;) ) Sorry for the political view-rant but Diesel's are a hot spot for me... I love them and it drives me NUTS that we just can't get them (in what I want one in - Got a TDi Jetta Wagon in the Fam and it's AWESOME but it just won't quite serve as replacement for my 4Runner eh) because "we don't want them" BS, alot of us want them, just like alot of us want a small practical 4wd Pick-up that seems to have completely dissapeared from the N.American market.

What I'm saying in a round about way is that I think we'll see a hybrid(maybe even a diesel hybrid) Jeep before we see a REAL factory Diesel Wrangler...


...I'm thinking of buying a 1HD-T powered 79 series pickup from Proffitt's Cruisers... If I could swing the cost, I'd have one of these beauties tomorow (course I REALLY want a troopy but right now I'm so desperate ANY 70-series would do...) Aside from the G-Wagen and maybe some of the Patrols, IMO NOTHING can hold a candle to the mighty 70 series It truly is one of the greatest passenger/utility 4x4's ever made (Mogs, Pinzy's and 303's excluded as they're hardly readilly available and more like fast tractors then the 70 - although the 70 is planty "tractorish" when need arises) I'd prefer an older gen with the pointy nose and either a 1HD-t or 1HZ-T and a manual gear box... Course the early 70-series are finnaly able to be imported but having lived and worked with them in Australia I can guess they've all been worked over pretty well already eh ;)

Anyway, sorry for the OT Toyota talk, I can't help myself...

Cheers

Dave

[96discoXD]

Count me as another who would be in line quickly to order a new JKU with the 2.8 diesel engine, particularly if it were available in rubicon trim or at least with the rubicon axles and t-case. I just bought my 2010 sport and I love it but I would trade up in a second to have the diesel.
Sergio, are you listening????:coffee:

[Storz]

I am a rabid Land Rover fan, but the minute I can get an Unlimited with a diesel I am there. My wife's daily driver is an 05 Jetta TDI that has been nothing but perfect for us, my mom just bought a 2011 A3 TDI and its incredible. I WANT MORE DIESELS!!!

[matthewp]

To add on to 4Rescues comments, if the US market "doesn't want" a diesel Jeep, why did the Liberty CRD sell ALL the 10,000 units made (and double the estimated 5,000 Chrysler thought they were going to sell... yes, the same folks who also think we don't want a diesel JK! Hmm!)? Also, from what I've read, the diesel Grand was a good seller too!

I'd give my eye teeth to find out the real reason Jeep won't bring diesel to the US market again.

[Metcalf]

Because they get better mileage, last longer, and you at least have a chance at making your own fuel....

[JJBiggs]

I was looking to buy a 2010 JK. Ended up buying a 2007 Land Rover LR3. I just could not get over the lack of power with the current 3.8.

Following my discussions with the dealers, I received a call from Chrysler Customer Services asking why I did not purchase a JK. My reply was simply, "...if the Jeep had a diesel engine in it, it would be sitting in my driveway right now."

Silence on the other end of the phone.

C.

[96discoXD]

I was looking to buy a 2010 JK. Ended up buying a 2007 Land Rover LR3. I just could not get over the lack of power with the current 3.8.

Following my discussions with the dealers, I received a call from Chrysler Customer Services asking why I did not purchase a JK. My reply was simply, "...if the Jeep had a diesel engine in it, it would be sitting in my driveway right now."

Silence on the other end of the phone.

C.

Congratulations, you may have purchased the only vehicle less reliable than a JK, an LR3! :D (just teasing as a former LR owner myself)

[Metcalf]

Ok, so how do we beat the system?

How do we import one into the USA?

[Storz]

Ok, so how do we beat the system?

How do we import one into the USA?

Some good info here

http://www.bordercenter.org/chem/vehicles.htm

[JJBiggs]

Congratulations, you may have purchased the only vehicle less reliable than a JK, an LR3! :D (just teasing as a former LR owner myself)

FWIW - not a single major issue whatsoever with this vehicle. We love it. The only issue I have ever had was caused by me. Fuel sender in the fuel tank went sproing after I bashed the tank skid off-roading.

...almost 5K pounds worth of Land Rover and I still get around 17 mpg and I can tow 7K.

I'll take it. :victory:

[Silverdiesel]

Happy owner here of a 06 Liberty KJ CRD:
2.8 L I4 VM Motori, 160 HP, 300 Ft/LBS Torque 1650-2800RPM, redline 4000RPM
1800bar max, common rail injection, Bosch CP3 IP
4 Valves/cylinder, VVT Turbo, CAC, 35-45 lbs max boost
31 Hwy Diesel fuel
5K towing capacity.....
NV242 behind a 545RFE "Hemi" style 5 speed overdrive....
I can go on AND this is all Stock!

I love this truck and I wont trade it but would love to put a JK CRD next to it in the garage.

RS
P.S DC made approx 16000 of these in 05 and 06...

[96discoXD]

FWIW - not a single major issue whatsoever with this vehicle. We love it. The only issue I have ever had was caused by me. Fuel sender in the fuel tank went sproing after I bashed the tank skid off-roading.

...almost 5K pounds worth of Land Rover and I still get around 17 mpg and I can tow 7K.

I'll take it. :victory:

I looked at LR3's, but was nervous about the ghost of Lucas still haunting the newest (at the time) offering from LR. Sound like a pretty decent package if it's getting 17mpg and that much tow rating to boot.


Back on topic: Is there a source for the 2.8vm domestically? Sometimes I think I should just move my family overseas to Europe where you can buy real vehicles instead of all the crap we get here in the states.

[Metcalf]

liberty CRD was about the only source domestically for the 2.8VM.

The JK, even the previous gen, used a different version than the Liberty.

The 2.8 CRD from the Libby can be swapped in the TJ, AEV did it in like 2006. They won't do another one, but it was possible.

From my reading, the euro V emissions of the new 2011 JK CRD meets the current US standards for Tier 2, bin 6, USA emissions. The sticking point is NOx quanity? I haven't found very good EPA standards listed for passenger vehicles in the USA.

[scootr29]

What years could you get a diesel GC and Liberty...?

GC = 2007 and 2008.5

[96discoXD]

liberty CRD was about the only source domestically for the 2.8VM.

The JK, even the previous gen, used a different version than the Liberty.

The 2.8 CRD from the Libby can be swapped in the TJ, AEV did it in like 2006. They won't do another one, but it was possible.

From my reading, the euro V emissions of the new 2011 JK CRD meets the current US standards for Tier 2, bin 6, USA emissions. The sticking point is NOx quanity? I haven't found very good EPA standards listed for passenger vehicles in the USA.

Very interesting stuff Metcalf, I had assumed that part of the reason we couldn't get the diesel here was that it wouldn't or couldn't (without great additional expense per vehicle) meet the newer EPA standards. Maybe that was just blind faith on my part the Chrysler and their ilk couldn't possibly be so obtuse as to deny us a diesel wrangler without a very sound business rationale. While I understand that they're selling the JK's, particularly JKU's as fast as they can send them to the dealers for the most part, there is no question from an enthusiasts point of view that there are people opting not to buy any JK due to the lack of a diesel.

[alosix]

The 2.8 CRD from the Libby can be swapped in the TJ, AEV did it in like 2006. They won't do another one, but it was possible.

Asking questions about this Jeep is the quickest way to end a conversation with a normally talkative Dave Harrington.

I've had it happen 2x :)

[Metcalf]

Most of the details of the AEV conversion are in this thread. Dave didn't give away the programming or anything, but he did tell how it was done.

http://forum.aev-conversions.com/showthread.php?t=219&highlight=diesel

[JeffRRC]

Here is a gentleman on jeepforum that owned and sold a 2.8 VM diesel powered JKU. It was absolutely beautiful. I will try to furnish a link. I seem to remember that he purchased the engine and had it installed in Colorado and later moved to Georgia.

[cwsqbm]

Not selling a diesel Jeep here makes as much sense as Mercedes not selling 4x4 Sprinters. There's a demand for both, but the manufacturers don't think the extra pricing would be worth the risk and extra certification and support costs.

They obviously need to look at VW, where a larger and larger percentage of their sales are going diesel. Small diesels could be what differentiates them from GM and Ford.

[alosix]

Most of the details of the AEV conversion are in this thread. Dave didn't give away the programming or anything, but he did tell how it was done.

http://forum.aev-conversions.com/showthread.php?t=219&highlight=diesel

Yeah.. I was bugging him @ SEMA a while before that was put up.

I finally figured out what programing was done when chatting back and forth about getting my Hemi 545RFE to shift right in the 725.

The hard part is the CANBus auto's in newer DC vehicles, which unfortunately include the CRD KJs need the speed on the bus from somewhere before they will attempt to shift. Most pull this from the anti-lock brake sensors now instead of a trans mounted VSS. The 'little black box' that gets that TJ working is likely something pulling the VSS signal out and putting it on the can bus, while pulling all of the dash stuff off the CAN bus and converting it into the PCI bus that TJ's dash was using.

Wow, soo off topic.

But to get on topic.

The ONLY WAY I'll every buy a NEW JEEP is if it is a DIESEL PERIOD. There just isn't a compelling reason to lay out that much $$ anymore for a new JK for me. I'll buy used if I ever get the itch for a 4 door again.

Jason

[JeffRRC]

There is a gentleman on jeepforum that owned and sold a 2.8 VM diesel powered JKU. It was absolutely beautiful. I will try to furnish a link. I seem to remember that he purchased the engine and had it installed in Colorado and later moved to Georgia.

[Metcalf]

link for the diesel JKU mentioned above...

http://forum.aev-conversions.com/showthread.php?t=1690&highlight=diesel

MMMMMMMMMmmmmmmm.....

[JJBiggs]

There is a gentleman on jeepforum that owned and sold a 2.8 VM diesel powered JKU. It was absolutely beautiful. I will try to furnish a link. I seem to remember that he purchased the engine and had it installed in Colorado and later moved to Georgia.

Yep...he sold it for absolutely stupid coin. I cannot believe someone actually paid that much for it.

[JeffRRC]

Well it was more than I could afford but compared to what people get for hemi-powered JKs, I thought it was not bad.

[ryancrouch]

If they made a diesel "Overland" Jk edition I'd be at the dealership tomorrow and wouldn't leave without one

[Vizoo]

I have just bought my JKU, it is still waiting for me to go to Miami to get it at the dealer. But if a diesel version is put on sale tomorrow I will buy it without even seating on the "old" one. :-)

[Metcalf]

Well.....still thinking about it....

I guess you can import a complete vehicle for research and development. I would plan to research and develop a way to swap the body over from a 2011 USA model JK. While it would be EXPENSIVE for sure, you would end up with a diesel powered JK you could have registered and insured on the road, and a gas powered JK to drive around the ranch ( or a bunch of spare parts ).

I would really like to do a light little 2-door JK lightweight expedition vehicle. It would be diesel powered of course, Rubicon package, a little 2-3" lift, and 35" tires. Add some simple light aluminum bumpers, light winch, aluminum skidplates in select areas, etc....

Ah to dream...

[haven]

Earlier this week, the Chrysler CEO told reporters at the Detroit Auto Show that Jeep is ready to start selling the Grand Cherokee in Europe with a Fiat diesel V6 under the hood. But he was reluctant to approve diesel engines for sale in USA. Canada, maybe, but not USA.

[schmugboy]

I waited for two years on the hope that they would transition the CRD to the Wrangler, finally bought in 09', but would shed it tomorrow. I was reading one of the 4-wheel mags where they asked questions of the major mfg. And they asked everyone of them why they did not use more diesels, and pretty much every response was related to limited demand, but no mention of emissions. Which begs the question of how do we let them know there IS a market for this. I bought a 09' VW Jetta TDI and love that thing, so I might have to buy a touareg especially since it is kicking but in Dakar, they just need to take that race technology and bring it to the street.

[F5driver]

How do the latest diesel engines do in the cold? While hunting in Nov my friend could not start his 7.3 powerstroke when the weather was sub 0. My JK had no problem with the cold.

[Metcalf]

Most modern diesels have very limited problems in the cold. You do need more starting capacity, but not starting is a non-issue.

[Storz]

How do the latest diesel engines do in the cold? While hunting in Nov my friend could not start his 7.3 powerstroke when the weather was sub 0. My JK had no problem with the cold.

Our Jetta TDI starts great all the time, no issues with the cold.

[ernestgj]

My '05 Liberty CRD usually starts down to 0. -10F is a no-go and a couple times at around 5 F it hasn't started after sitting overnight.

0-40w synthetic oil and an Optima red top battery.

It has made me rethink a (Jeep) diesel for my next truck (assuming they come out with one someday).

[RedRocker]

Our Jetta TDI starts great all the time, no issues with the cold.

We have an 09 JSW that has been flawless. I gave up waiting for Jeep to
pull their heads out and offer a diesel. I went with an 06 LJ Rubicon, a diesel would be very tempting, but I really like the LJ, cept for the lack of power.

[Navman]

I waited for two years on the hope that they would transition the CRD to the Wrangler, finally bought in 09', but would shed it tomorrow. I was reading one of the 4-wheel mags where they asked questions of the major mfg. And they asked everyone of them why they did not use more diesels, and pretty much every response was related to limited demand, but no mention of emissions. Which begs the question of how do we let them know there IS a market for this. I bought a 09' VW Jetta TDI and love that thing, so I might have to buy a touareg especially since it is kicking but in Dakar, they just need to take that race technology and bring it to the street.

Yeah, and we all know how good Detroit is at guaging demand. I seem to recall something about a government bailout recently.

[jeepstream]

I have a 2008.5 GC diesel that is my daily driver. I average 24 MPG on backroads to and from work. I also use it to tow our 24 foot Airstream. I can't think of a vehicle offered close to the price of my JK that would do a better job at both tasks. I would have bought a four-door JK if they offered the Daimler diesel version. That would be the ultimate Expedition vehicle.

[Storz]

I have a 2008.5 GC diesel that is my daily driver. I average 24 MPG on backroads to and from work. I also use it to tow our 24 foot Airstream. I can't think of a vehicle offered close to the price of my JK that would do a better job at both tasks. I would have bought a four-door JK if they offered the Daimler diesel version. That would be the ultimate Expedition vehicle.

I am really, really tempted to start looking at the GC CRD and Liberty CRD as a replacement for the Rover. The gas is killing me, I drive 35 miles round trip to and from work and get 14-15mpg.

I do have a boat though, ~2500lbs (boat and trailer) could the Liberty tow it alright?

[Jorsn]

I have emailed Jeep multiple times asking why they can't offer a diesel for the JKU in the US. Still waiting for a response :coffee:

[scootr29]

I am really, really tempted to start looking at the GC CRD and Liberty CRD as a replacement for the Rover. The gas is killing me, I drive 35 miles round trip to and from work and get 14-15mpg.

I do have a boat though, ~2500lbs (boat and trailer) could the Liberty tow it alright?

You would have a much better towing experience with the Grand Cherokee and get better fuel economy because the vehicle is not maxed out towing 2500 pounds.

Just food for thought. I have a 2008 Grand Cherokee Diesel Laredo that I could let go for the right price....it has been dealer serviced since new. I am the only owner. The truck has been awesome. It was my company car that I purchased last year. It is silver with 62,000 miles. It has the QT2 4wd system. Do a check on Autotrader and KBB for some ballpark prices. Never been offroad. I do have new Bilstein shocks in the rear and I am getting ready to install new Bilsteins in the front.

I am really wanting a pickup truck that is the only reason I would sell it....


http://www.smugmug.com/photos/1155622686_pNwmK-L.jpg


http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww288/scootr29/DSC06176-1.jpg

[JeffRRC]

Post some pictues of your Grand. I am reay to unload my Tahoe. We have a ZJ and a TJ. Love our Jeeps!

[jeepstream]

Never been offroad. :ylsmoke:

http://i728.photobucket.com/albums/ww288/scootr29/DSC06176-1.jpg


Great looking GC CRD! I was confused by look of the front then I realized you removed the black plastic between the foglights under the bumper.

Diesel GC's are very hard to find for sale. Someone needs to jump on Hyaena's offer! They are excellent tow vehicles. We pulled a 3,500 lbs. trailer from MD to Yellowstone and didn't even notice it even at 12,000 ft. in the mountains of Montana.

[Storz]

Unfortunatly the GC (even at a good deal) is going to be out of my price range, sweet truck though!

[JeffRRC]

Nice! I didn't realize you could get the CRD in Laredo trim. Hyaena, I'm interested, will you please post some interior photos and list the options your truck has. Good looking vehicle!

[scootr29]

Great looking GC CRD! I was confused by look of the front then I realized you removed the black plastic between the foglights under the bumper.

Diesel GC's are very hard to find for sale. Someone needs to jump on Hyaena's offer! They are excellent tow vehicles. We pulled a 3,500 lbs. trailer from MD to Yellowstone and didn't even notice it even at 12,000 ft. in the mountains of Montana.

OK you busted me...I guess I should have said occasional fire roads...but no rock climbing etc...

[scootr29]

Nice! I didn't realize you could get the CRD in Laredo trim. Hyaena, I'm interested, will you please post some interior photos and list the options your truck has. Good looking vehicle!

Jeff after sleeping on it and changing the oil on my Jeep this afternoon I am not ready to part with the diesel yet. If I do decide I will look you up and give you a heads up. Unless you want to blow an offer out of the ceiling...just in case you have lots of money laying around :sombrero:

By the way you can get a CRD Laredo in 2008. Mine has every option except Nav and OT2. I just missed getting QT2...as that became an option a month after I ordered the Jeep as a company car. And for some reason I did not order Nav..which was not smart.

Fully loaded Laredo CRDs are few and far between.

[Scott Brady]

Diesel is not feasible for passenger SUVs until fuel hits $4.50 a gallon. People will simply not buy them in any quantity. VW is the one exception, but even they are slow to sell diesel SUVs.

We cannot blame the manufactures, as they cannot take risks with products they know consumers won't pay for.

Diesel Jeeps will come, but the fuel prices need to justify it first. It is an unfortunate fact.

[scootr29]

Diesel is not feasible for passenger SUVs until fuel hits $4.50 a gallon. People will simply not buy them in any quantity. VW is the one exception, but even they are slow to sell diesel SUVs.

We cannot blame the manufactures, as they cannot take risks with products they know consumers won't pay for.

Diesel Jeeps will come, but the fuel prices need to justify it first. It is an unfortunate fact.

As a diesel owner can you elaborate on your $4.50 statement above.

[Scott Brady]

As a diesel owner can you elaborate on your $4.50 statement above.

That is straight from the product planners at the largest automotive manufacturer in the world ;)

It is just a threshold. They know that when fuel gets expensive enough, people will justify the cost of a diesel option in passenger vehicles. Most people don't drive quite enough to justify it, so they buy the cheaper gas version, which feels more smooth and powerful.

Trust me, I love diesels, and hope to only own diesels at some point. I drive a diesel Jeep nearly every day and love it, but we are currently in the minority :(

[jingram]

I can understand "not buying them in quantity" from a dealer network support perspective as their are a lot of ancilary support costs associated with a new powerplant, but have a hard time buying into it from a purely sales perspective. I think demand is there in reasonable quantities. There are a number of very niche automobiles that do just fine in the US Domestic Market and are profitable to their manufacturer. Look at anything from the Nissan Skyline to the new Ford Raptor.

The reality is that Jeep does not have to do any additional R&D to make this product happen as they are selling them overseas and meeting very strict Euro V regs (although we do have stricter NOx requirements). I think the CRD Liberty was a good indicator of how well this product would do. The Liberty was NEVER overly popular with the Jeep crowd and they still sold out of their run and far exceeded sales expectations.

You go on any forum and you have Jeep owners clamboring for a diesel option and plenty of guys dumping 15-25k in hemi swaps. Sure guys complain about the ever increasing cost of the Wrangler, but I almost guarentee you that you would sell 15K diesel units a year without breaking a sweat even at a 3-5k premium simply because of the low end torque and better mileage provided vs. the current 3.8 power plant. I think this would happen regardless of how long the break even point would be for most buyers, as we aren't talking about your average American consumer, you are talking about the whole Jeep/Off-Road subculture. I think if there was ever a model in this market segment that could make a diesel offering work for a manufacturer it is the Wrangler.

[purdueXJ]

What's the cost of ownership like in those mercedes diesels in the GC's, and the vm motori diesels in the libertys? I would think the vm motori diesels would be hard to get parts for.

[Metcalf]

.....but they already build them in the USA! Make it a custom order option and don't stock them at the dealers.....I would custom order in a heartbeat if I could get a diesel.

As I stated, the 2011 Diesel could meet our emissions I think. I don't know what 'bin' we need to be on 'tier 2', but euro V falls on that table somewhere.

I don't see what the big stretch is for the manufacturer? They already sell them in just about every other country in the world! Are they afraid that the USA customers will like them too much and they won't be able to keep up with demand overseas? It's not like they don't produce a bunch of them already...

My theory....

They don't want to sell diesel vehicles because they last longer and get better mileage. The US public would then consume less vehicles and less fuel.
Look at USA diesel pickup sales!

[x32792]

.....but they already build them in the USA! Make it a custom order option and don't stock them at the dealers.....I would custom order in a heartbeat if I could get a diesel.

As I stated, the 2011 Diesel could meet our emissions I think. I don't know what 'bin' we need to be on 'tier 2', but euro V falls on that table somewhere.

I don't see what the big stretch is for the manufacturer? They already sell them in just about every other country in the world! Are they afraid that the USA customers will like them too much and they won't be able to keep up with demand overseas? It's not like they don't produce a bunch of them already...

My theory....

They don't want to sell diesel vehicles because they last longer and get better mileage. The US public would then consume less vehicles and less fuel.
Look at USA diesel pickup sales!

Diesels last too long and get better milage. The goal is for customers to buy a new $30-40K rig every year, take the immediate 30% depreciation in value and buy lots of gasoline...It's a win-win situation for Big Oil, UAW, Automakers and the Federal Government who collects tax on every gallon of fuel you burn...Is this a great country or what? Besides, you don't need all that additional torque.

[scootr29]

What's the cost of ownership like in those mercedes diesels in the GC's, and the vm motori diesels in the libertys? I would think the vm motori diesels would be hard to get parts for.

I am not sure I can break it down to the penny..I think there is someone on JeepForum who has done that. I will try to find the post and link it.

[jingram]

.....but they already build them in the USA! Make it a custom order option and don't stock them at the dealers.....I would custom order in a heartbeat if I could get a diesel.

I agree... the only problem I see with this is warranty service. There WILL be cost to train the dealership service network how to handle this powerplant and handle warranty claims. Diesel techs are different than your typical technician. That being said, I don't see this being a big deal. Sergio Marchionne has already stated that the goal is to have Chrysler, Dodge, and Jeep all available at the same dealership. Clearly Dodge already has a lot of trained Diesel technicians in the field. This would nip that issue in the bud with minimal cost. However, until that happens, I could see this being a major sticking point from a CBA perspective. Even if they didn't want to offer them which I think they don't for the reasons you mention below!



My theory....

They don't want to sell diesel vehicles because they last longer and get better mileage. The US public would then consume less vehicles and less fuel.
Look at USA diesel pickup sales!

[RockyRidge]

I want to be added to the statistics as wanting a better engine. I am not hell bent on diesel or not. I can see the pros and cons.

My beef is in power. The JK is a dog and, I think Jeep will see sales begin to dwindle because of it. Every time I tow my camper or put my kayak on the top, I wish it had a better engine (and double digit gas mileage).

I love my JK and do not want to replace it with anything else. But please Jeep give us a decent engine! At least one built for the size of vehicle you are offering. A better motor is the only reason I would trade mine in.

Sorry, one more opinion. I think it is ridiculous to have to pay $15-$20K to add an aftermarket engine to a vehicle to get decent performance. The manufacture needs to step up and offer a good stock solution.

[dejablu311]

I would buy one. Immediately.

[x32792]

I would buy one. Immediately.

If the toledoblade.com (the hometown newspaper where Jeeps are made) can be believed, the new motor will be in the 2012 and there's a possible new pick up too.

Comments on new pick up: http://toledoblade.com/article/20110112/BUSINESS02/110119879

I love my gas guzzling 4L '01, but better gas milage, more HP and more torque would be much appreciated.

John

[alosix]

If the toledoblade.com (the hometown newspaper where Jeeps are made) can be believed, the new motor will be in the 2012 and there's a possible new pick up too.

Comments on new pick up: http://toledoblade.com/article/20110112/BUSINESS02/110119879

I love my gas guzzling 4L '01, but better gas milage, more HP and more torque would be much appreciated.

John


Hmm, that almost makes it sound like our biggest 2 issues are caused by the dodge brand managers.. Interesting.

Jason

[srmitchell]

Its such a bummer, because I know my family would gladly unload our cherry 04 grand cherokee, for a 2012 4 dr jk, if it had a diesel.

The fact that the jk gets the SAME mileage as my lifted 2001 xj on 32's, is sad.

[Metcalf]

Related note...

I called Cummins today for work. "hey, can I buy one of those ISF 3.8 engines in crate form?"....Cummins said, "no sir, there isn't enough interest in the domestic market for the small diesels. Would you be interested in a 4bt or b3.3?"

I just don't get it.....

[reece146]

The only people interested in diesels are diesel nerds. To everyone else they are pointless, slow, smelly things. Nowadays the modern diesels don't even have a decent ROI over a petrol engine.

[jingram]

The only people interested in diesels are diesel nerds. To everyone else they are pointless, slow, smelly things. Nowadays the modern diesels don't even have a decent ROI over a petrol engine.

Not quite sure where you get off saying that. It really depends on what premium one is paying for a diesel powerplant. Furthermore, hard to call a CRD slow or smelly. Have you even used a modern diesel say in a Volkswagen or BMW or Merc? Hardly slow, loud, or smelly.

Certainly the have their place and are far more flexible from a fuels perspective than their gasoline counterparts.

All I know is that I can go out and buy a 6speed JK Unlimited in Europe right now with a modern common rail diesel powerplant with start/stop technology no less that is rated 29.4 US MPG on the highway. My options here are buy a 3.8 dinosaur that is slated to end production in May which gets 19 US MPG on the highway. For the amount of time I own vehicles the price premium far outweighs the initial extra cost for me. Plus, we haven't even delved into the offroad benefits on the diesel.

[idriveanxj]

The only people interested in diesels are diesel nerds. To everyone else they are pointless, slow, smelly things. Nowadays the modern diesels don't even have a decent ROI over a petrol engine.

You're right. I read everywhere "everyone is asking for a diesel to be put in this or that." But really, the only people asking are the 5% of vehicle owners who are dedicated enough to their vehicles (or their modification) to join forums or groups (eg those diesel nerds). In reality if an option on a new vehicle is selected on less than 10% of the ones sold, that option is often dropped entirely.

Your average Joe who just drives a vehicle to get him from point A to point B could care less what engine he has. If anything all they have is brand loyalty. If it keeps them from walking, and meets whatever their specific requirements are met (be it cheap to buy and cheap to run, haul the family, or huge horse power, etc), they're happy.

Me on the other hand... I would crap my pants with joy if they came out with a Jeep pickup with a diesel engine. But I'm not holding my breath.

[x32792]

If you really want a CRD (2) door or (4) JK Wrangler, let them hear from you:

CONTACT JEEP - New Vehicle Information

http://www.jeep.com/webselfservice/jeep/index.jsp

Contact Us by Telephone
1-877-426-5337
(877-IAM-JEEP)
M-F 8:00 AM - 8:00 PM ET
SAT 9:00 AM - 5:00 PM ET

[reece146]

Not quite sure where you get off saying that.

Where do I get off saying that?

It's a broad, sweeping statement among the others in this thread. The statement reflects the reality and perception of diesels in the North American market.

If the Jeep marketplace (i.e. consumers) thought diesel was so great Jeep would still be offering diesels in the KK and WK2 due to demand. If diesel was that popular in those platforms surely Jeep would have started offering a diesel engine in the JK by now or at least be talking about it openly given the bankruptcy and design cycle time frames.

Someone said to expect diesels when gasoline reaches ~$4.50/US gallon. That is being optimistic IMNSHO. It will likely have to reach $6 before consumer demands cross the line of corporate awareness at Jeep/Chrysler. See "myopia" below.

The other reality is that the majority of people that buy a new Jeep in the North American market only keep the Jeep for 3-5 years; basically until the lease runs out and they get bored with it and move on to some other shiny, new conveyance. They are not enthusiasts; it is just a car to them that may reflect the lifestyle they want to project at that point in time.

Do these kinds of people really care to pay the premium for diesel when they won't recoup their money because they don't keep the vehicle long enough? The majority don't drive far enough to really recoup the difference in MPG over the ownership cycle even if they wanted. At the relative differences between MPGs you have to drive a lot to get ahead. We aren't comparing a 20 mpg gas engine to a 45 mpg diesel engine. The relative difference is minimal. A lot of people that buy these Jeeps are in debt to the t!ts so the premium of the diesel is a big deal up front.

Jeep as a Corporate entity does not give a damn about used car buyers when designing new vehicles. Why should they? There is no direct cash flow to their shareholders. Typical corporate myopia. That's why the vehicles are built so cheaply to begin with: minimum engineering at its worst. Disposable vehicles.

[reece146]

By the way, with turbo, direct injection, gasoline compression engines coming in the next 5-10 years diesel is a dying technology anyway.

If I was running a car company right now I would not invest any R&D into diesel engines. Buying from others is the way forward for diesel engines in the short term. Or just hold the course.

[x32792]

...Jeep as a Corporate entity does not give a damn about used car buyers when designing new vehicles. Why should they? There is no direct cash flow to their shareholders. Typical corporate myopia. That's why the vehicles are built so cheaply to begin with: minimum engineering at its worst. Disposable vehicles.

Cynical, but realistic. Fiat-Chrysler is in business to make money. They are not in love with nor do they worship any of the brands they currently make here or in Europe.

The diesel market here in America may just be a niche of a niche market...An itch not worthy of scratching.

That said, it would be nice IF they offered a special order diesel option for those of us who have the money and wanted one.

[Metcalf]

BAH!!!!!!

Look at US Fullsize pickup sales with Diesel engines! You can't tell me that they are not selling like wildfire and making up a SIGNIFICANT portion of overall sales.

The reason we don't have more diesel vehicle ownership in the USA is because they are not offered. We are kept in the stone age, bottom line we buy more fuel if we drive gasoline vehicles.

[reece146]

BAH!!!!!!

Look at US Fullsize pickup sales with Diesel engines! You can't tell me that they are not selling like wildfire and making up a SIGNIFICANT portion of overall sales.

The reason we don't have more diesel vehicle ownership in the USA is because they are not offered. We are kept in the stone age, bottom line we buy more fuel if we drive gasoline vehicles.

Explain the Liberty and Grand Cherokee not being offered with a diesel engine any more. It was a good engine too, arguable a "best of breed" for displacement/power package.

[scootr29]

Explain the Liberty and Grand Cherokee not being offered with a diesel engine any more. It was a good engine too, arguable a "best of breed" for displacement/power package.

The GC with the diesel was taken away because Jeep did not want to engineer the system to accept the Diesel Exhaust Fluid needed to meet EPA201 requirements.

It is a little odd considering that the Mercedes ML350 shares the exact same platform as the 2011 Jeep GC. And the ML350 is offered with the 3.0L V6 Bluetec diesel engine for 2010 emissions.

Maybe Mercedes said you can have the chassis but not the engine and bluetec system...who knows.

[scootr29]

By the way, with turbo, direct injection, gasoline compression engines coming in the next 5-10 years diesel is a dying technology anyway.

If I was running a car company right now I would not invest any R&D into diesel engines. Buying from others is the way forward for diesel engines in the short term. Or just hold the course.

Gas Direct Injection (GDI) is a viable option and we will see more of these engines. Even though this technology has been out for a long time (1920s) it became fashionable again in the 1990s and to this day only a select few have the technology. Manufacturers are seeing a 20-30% increase in fuel economy with the direct injection on 4 stroke engines with a turbo.

The best increase for direct injection is a 2 stroke engine.

Comparison:
2011 Hyundai Sonata is using GDI 198hp/184torque = 28mpg average

2011 VW Jetta TDI diesel 140hp/236torque = 36mpg avg

Long live diesel...:sombrero:

[JCMatthews]

Gas Direct Injection (GDI) is a viable option and we will see more of these engines. Even though this technology has been out for a long time (1920s) it became fashionable again in the 1990s and to this day only a select few have the technology. Manufacturers are seeing a 20-30% increase in fuel economy with the direct injection on 4 stroke engines with a turbo.

The best increase for direct injection is a 2 stroke engine.

Comparison:
2011 Hyundai Sonata is using GDI 198hp/184torque = 28mpg average

2011 VW Jetta TDI diesel 140hp/236torque = 36mpg avg

Long live diesel...:sombrero:

Those are nice comparisons, but you have to take into account that diesel contains more oil per gallon than a gallon of petrol. It would seem that if there is more oil to burn then there should be more torque, and more miles to the gallon. Does anyone know if the miles per quarts of oil used is any different?

[ATEurope]

The huge irony of Jeep offering diesel Wranglers in Europe is that no one in Europe could care less what's under the hood of a Wrangler. This side of the Atlantic we just don't buy them meaning Jeep dealers in the UK count annual Wrangler sales in single figures. Jeep could pull the Wrangler from sale in UK and no body would even notice, even at the $10 a gallon we've reached over here! :Wow1:

[Rubicon_Fan]

Wow, didn't it was THAT bad..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Metcalf]

????????

'gasoline' isn't even in crude oil? Spark-ignition fuels occurring naturally in crude oil are of unusable quality requiring a ton of extra refinement and improvement.


Those are nice comparisons, but you have to take into account that diesel contains more oil per gallon than a gallon of petrol. It would seem that if there is more oil to burn then there should be more torque, and more miles to the gallon. Does anyone know if the miles per quarts of oil used is any different?

Explain the Liberty and Grand Cherokee not being offered with a diesel engine any more. It was a good engine too, arguable a "best of breed" for displacement/power package.

The liberty outsold initial estimates by almost 100%. The initial estimates where for 5000 units if I remember right. They stopped selling them because 2010 emissions or something, same with the Grand Cherokee.

Bottom line, we haven't had an across the board choice on diesel engines, only very few models and very few years.

The dumbest thing about Jeep Diesels, THEY MAKE THEM IN THE USA! Then they ship them overseas....come on, at least give it to us as an option. Its not like we are asking for engines that are not ALREADY in production.

Gas engines suck :)

[jingram]

Wow, I missed a lot in the last few days, lol.


Where do I get off saying that?

It's a broad, sweeping statement among the others in this thread. The statement reflects the reality and perception of diesels in the North American market.

If the Jeep marketplace (i.e. consumers) thought diesel was so great Jeep would still be offering diesels in the KK and WK2 due to demand. If diesel was that popular in those platforms surely Jeep would have started offering a diesel engine in the JK by now or at least be talking about it openly given the bankruptcy and design cycle time frames.

The reality is that the KJ CRD outsold original expectations. The official line was that Daimler-Chrysler used it as a test vehicle to gauge consumer interest diesels. The original allotment of 10,000 the first year sold out due to high consumer demand. It only existed for roughly a year and a half before the model was discontinued due to tighter emissions regs in 2007.

Clearly there is a demand for diesels in the states or Volkswagen wouldn't be doing so well with their TRD models, nor would you see so many diesel trucks out there on the road. Like I said, before, if there was ever a market for it and with a user base that was VERY active online it would be wrangler owners. The aftermarket is simply huge and a large percentage of users are online and involved in one of the many communities. To say that doesn't happen and that owners aren't involved in online communities seems ludicrous. I don't know anybody who doesn't do research online before buying an automobile and the vast majority of people I know are NOT involved in things like expedition travel or offroading.


Someone said to expect diesels when gasoline reaches ~$4.50/US gallon. That is being optimistic IMNSHO. It will likely have to reach $6 before consumer demands cross the line of corporate awareness at Jeep/Chrysler. See "myopia" below.

Scott was the one who said that and it was in this thread. He said it came from product planners at the largest auto manufacturer in the world - Toyota.


The other reality is that the majority of people that buy a new Jeep in the North American market only keep the Jeep for 3-5 years; basically until the lease runs out and they get bored with it and move on to some other shiny, new conveyance. They are not enthusiasts; it is just a car to them that may reflect the lifestyle they want to project at that point in time.

True, although again, I would argue it is a bit different with this target market. If there was ever loyalty to a brand, it is with Jeepers. "It's a Jeep thing" is their anthem and if anybody would jump on the opportunity for a diesel, it would be this group. If not for the fuel economy, simply for the torque. After all, this is the group that is spending 15-25k a pop on hemi swaps and keeping a number of shops in business as a result. An extra 3k or so on top for factory warranty, better mileage, and outstanding torque... I think that Jeep could sell as many as they could make.


Do these kinds of people really care to pay the premium for diesel when they won't recoup their money because they don't keep the vehicle long enough? The majority don't drive far enough to really recoup the difference in MPG over the ownership cycle even if they wanted. At the relative differences between MPGs you have to drive a lot to get ahead. We aren't comparing a 20 mpg gas engine to a 45 mpg diesel engine. The relative difference is minimal. A lot of people that buy these Jeeps are in debt to the t!ts so the premium of the diesel is a big deal up front..

See above...


Jeep as a Corporate entity does not give a damn about used car buyers when designing new vehicles. Why should they? There is no direct cash flow to their shareholders. Typical corporate myopia. That's why the vehicles are built so cheaply to begin with: minimum engineering at its worst. Disposable vehicles.

I agree, and who mentioned anything about Jeep giving a damn about used car buyers? I don't think I did.

The flip side of that argument is that Chrysler can only go down the road of cost cutting and minimum engineering so far before it hurts profitability and ultimately shareholder value. That being said, I actually believe that Marchionne is on the right path. I think the guy actually gets it after listening to him on Autoblog at the NAIAS and other snippets online. Only time will tell, but the reality is that First Daimler then Cerberus gutted Chrysler. They have posed a remarkable comeback this year. Hopefully they can keep up their momentum.

[x32792]

I've read several interviews given by the Italian CEO of Fiat-Chrysler on this subject and his position is, 'We have a great deal of diesel know-how and we have the motors...The question remains, will they sell?'

From this, I'd say he still has his doubts...Be they factual, delusional, based on fuel prices, emission standards, impact on re-sales or internal company politics.

As consumers here in America, we only have a limited number of options. We can contact Jeep and ask them to produce more units with CRDs, (b) buy a diesel Grand Cherokee, (c) spend a lot of money and install an aftermarket diesel, (d) buy something else or (e) buy the Company and run it anyway you like.


Not For US: 2010 Jeep Wrangler Diesel...Yet in Europe, you can go down to a dealership today and buy a brand new 2010 Jeep Wrangler with a 2.8 liter CRD four-cylinder turbo diesel. That engine sourced from Daimler has an impressive 174hp and staggering 339 lb-ft. of torque. That is plenty of grunt for crawling rocks, climbing hills and going to WalMart for dog food.

Sparking even more jealousy of our European Jeep enthusiasts, the diesel powered Jeep Wrangler gets 23.7 mpg in the city and 35.8 mpg on the highway. And if you average that out you get a combined 30 mpg. Compare that to the US version of the Jeep Wrangler which is powered by a 3.8 liter gasoline V6 which is actually quite thirsty for a vehicle this size, mustering only 19mpg highway. And that big thirsty engine only has 237 ft.-lbs of torque.

To read full article, see http://dieseldig.com/2010/03/17/not-for-us-2010-jeep-wrangler-diesel/

[grecy]

I'm right there wanting a diesel wrangler too, and it is a very interesting topic.

I'm wondering how hard it would be for you guys to buy one from Europe (or somewhere), ship it over, and register it ?

When I lived in Canada I went through the paperwork to "import" my XJ from the USA, and while it was only coming from the USA, I think the process would be identical and not difficult at all. Because it's made in the USA, it would still be tax-free thanks to NAFTA.
I'll bet you can make up a story like "Yeah, I lived/worked in Germany for a year, now I've moving back home and would like to bring my Jeep with me"

The "registrar of imported vehicles" in Canada has great info on their site.

Thoughts?

-Dan

[x32792]

Dan,

The diesel Jeeps in Europe are made in the USA. For reasons known only to the UAW, Big Oil, Jeep and the Federal Government, it is illegal to have or import one.

Someone in Toledo who works in the auto industry recently hinted to me the diesel Wrangler might be available here in the States mid 2012. I've heard this type of stuff for years and will not get excited until I see one.

As my next planned outing is 6,000-7,000 miles, that 35 mpg and extra torque sure would be sweet...pricy, but sweet.

John

[reece146]

I'm right there wanting a diesel wrangler too, and it is a very interesting topic.

I'm wondering how hard it would be for you guys to buy one from Europe (or somewhere), ship it over, and register it ?

When I lived in Canada I went through the paperwork to "import" my XJ from the USA, and while it was only coming from the USA, I think the process would be identical and not difficult at all. Because it's made in the USA, it would still be tax-free thanks to NAFTA.
I'll bet you can make up a story like "Yeah, I lived/worked in Germany for a year, now I've moving back home and would like to bring my Jeep with me"

The "registrar of imported vehicles" in Canada has great info on their site.

Thoughts?

-Dan

The RIV "easy" process only applies for U.S. specification vehicles legal for importation or distribution within the U.S.

Non-U.S. specification vehicles must be more than 15 years old in order to be imported into Canada.

Non-U.S. specification vehicles must be more than 25 years old in order to be imported into U.S.

[Steve F]

The huge irony of Jeep offering diesel Wranglers in Europe is that no one in Europe could care less what's under the hood of a Wrangler. This side of the Atlantic we just don't buy them meaning Jeep dealers in the UK count annual Wrangler sales in single figures. Jeep could pull the Wrangler from sale in UK and no body would even notice, even at the $10 a gallon we've reached over here! :Wow1:

The diesel is also sold in Australia (right hand drive so same as the UK spec vehicles) with around 3000 Wranglers (Petrol and Diesel combined) sold here last year, if the Rubicon was offered in a diesel a big chunk of those sales would be diesel. In fact if only diesel was offered here I doubt sales would be any less if the price was right, the petrol sells for less than the diesel. We also get the KK and Grand in diesel form as well and would be a decent chunk of the remaining 4000 Jeeps sold here each year (about 7000 in total).

Diesel is the preferred option down here and every manufacturer offers a diesel 4WD.

Cheers
Steve

[grecy]

Dan,
As my next planned outing is 6,000-7,000 miles, that 35 mpg and extra torque sure would be sweet...pricy, but sweet.
John

Tell me about it, my current *outing* just ran 35,000 miles and is still going.

Although, as can be seen clearly from the diesel wranglers overseas, 35mpg is a pipe dream. Much closer to 20 in reality which is something I really, really don't understand. A highly sophisticated euro diesel getting around 20 is terrible.

-Dan

[grecy]

The RIV "easy" process only applies for U.S. specification vehicles legal for importation or distribution within the U.S.

Non-U.S. specification vehicles must be more than 15 years old in order to be imported into Canada.

Non-U.S. specification vehicles must be more than 25 years old in order to be imported into U.S.

Ahh, that's the part I was missing. Now I understand.
Thanks :)

-Dan

[x32792]

Tell me about it, my current *outing* just ran 35,000 miles and is still going.-Dan

Thought you sold your 4 banger and flew home.

[reece146]

Tell me about it, my current *outing* just ran 35,000 miles and is still going.

Although, as can be seen clearly from the diesel wranglers overseas, 35mpg is a pipe dream. Much closer to 20 in reality which is something I really, really don't understand. A highly sophisticated euro diesel getting around 20 is terrible.

-Dan

The diesel VW Polo gets 70+ mpg on the highway. When a JK weighs twice what Polo does and has twice Cd it might get close to half the mpg of a Polo. We are now talking about a Jeep badged Fiat Panda.

[Metcalf]

There has been some pretty good documentation of diesel mileage in the JK. Even with the last gen motor The J8s development rigs where seeing more than 20mpg. There was the JK CRD swap that was for sale, with all factory parts, 4.10 gears, manual trans, and HEAVY 37" toyo tires he was still getting 18+ at 70mph. The white AEV LJ was also getting 20+mpg at 75mph according to Dave. Fuel use was also WAY down on the trail...like half as much as a gas engine.

The next gen motors are even better.

Bone stock MPG vs lifted/big tire/loaded MPG is another thing....

[Storz]

I wonder if anyone at Jeep reads threads like this...?

[jingram]

This was posted up on JK Forums today:

Hello All - My first post to this forum.

I live in England and last week I bought a new "2 Door 2.8 CRD Unlimited" - which appears to be more or less identical to the one being discussed here. It's quiet, quick (easily does 100 mph), has a 5 speed automatic gearbox and the seating is all leather - but it's a Grey colour not black. The Sat Nav and Radio / HDD player all work well and I'm delighted with it now that we're getting hammered by early snow here in England.

Driving on motorways at a steady 75 to 80 mph I'm currently getting about 29 to 31 mpg.
Key differences that I can see are no 'stop-start' function and no heated seats. It has the 3 piece Freedom Top which I haven't attempted to remove yet , and the dash looks the same - as I say, I'm absolutely delighted with it.

Anyway - thought I'd introduce myself and say Hi.

Pete.

[Metcalf]

There is a little bit of a imperial to US gallon conversion, but still, VERY good all in all. I corrected for this in the figures I posted earlier.

[alosix]

"2 Door 2.8 CRD Unlimited"

They didn't go and give the UK the 3door like the one J8 did they?

I'm really beginning to believe that we don't have diesel JKs or Jeep pickups in the US because the Dodge brand managers are afraid it will eat into their sales and they have more pull than the Jeep guys do.

[jingram]

There is a little bit of a imperial to US gallon conversion, but still, VERY good all in all. I corrected for this in the figures I posted earlier.

Good point, I had in my earlier posts, but just copied this one verbatim.

[grecy]

The diesel VW Polo gets 70+ mpg on the highway. When a JK weighs twice what Polo does and has twice Cd it might get close to half the mpg of a Polo. We are now talking about a Jeep badged Fiat Panda.

My German friends over here are driving a new VW van around (forget what they are called) It weighs 3 tons with all their crap inside and I'd bet it had a similar Cd to a JK.. 30mpg day in, day out.

-Dan

[grecy]

Thought you sold your 4 banger and flew home.

Not yet, still going.

Sitting in Ushuaia right now actually.
theroadchoseme.com

-Dan

[uzj100]

I think Jeep is under estimating the number of diesel wranglers they would sell. Desert tan rubicon diesel. Sign me up.

:smiley_drive:

[tacomadave]

If they sold the Diesel, 3 door long wheelbase with the higher top and troop carrier seating in the back, like the J8 but i dont specifically need the Dana 60, I would keep it forever.

But, why would Jeep want to make a vehicle that lasts forever when they can sell us new ones every 3-5 years.

[x32792]

I think Jeep is under estimating the number of diesel wranglers they would sell. Desert tan rubicon diesel. Sign me up.

:smiley_drive:

Desert tan with three piece hard top for sure, but wonder if you'd really need to go all the way to Ruby?

The 2.8L CRD puts out about 339 ft-lbs of torque. Any Wrangler putting out that kind of torque would surely be equipped with heavier everything.

John

[alosix]

Desert tan with three piece hard top for sure, but wonder if you'd really need to go all the way to Ruby?

The 2.8L CRD puts out about 339 ft-lbs of torque. Any Wrangler putting out that kind of torque would surely be equipped with heavier everything.

John

Wouldn't want the 4:1 t-case.. but if spending that much on a jeep I'd want it locked front and rear.

[trail-explorer]

Desert tan rubicon diesel. Sign me up.

:smiley_drive:

same here..... :victory::victory::smiley_drive:

[Pathfinder]

Unfortunately I think this issue is that good diesel engines cost more than gas engines to manufacture.

I would LOVE a good diesel in my FJC! Low end torque, here we come!

We all know Toyota has a very nice diesel in its Hilux overseas, but not here in a the land of the free.

For those who said diesels are slow, a BMW 335d will do 0-60 in 6 seconds flat (http://www.jsonline.com/wheels/35059919.html), in a car that gives 26 MPG city, 38 mpg highway. Oh yeah, it has 425 ft-lbs of torque, almost as much as a Duramax.....

Now if we could just convince Toyota that the Taco, the FJC, and the Tundra all really need a nice medium size diesel here in the land of the free!

Then Jeep might wake up allow their customers to smell diesel fumes as well.

[orangeTJ]

My Duramax flat out screams when it's empty (4 rear tires = mega traction)

I'm leaning towards a JK when the 2012s come out, if there's a diesel option, I'M IN!

Sahara Tan or White, Rubicon model!

[Flyn G]

Car Connection (http://www.thecarconnection.com/marty-blog/1056261_diesel-jeep-wranglers-en-route-to-u-s)

If you're a fan of four-wheel drive and off-roading, you've probably longed for a diesel Land Rover Defender at some point. They're out there, but they're expensive, and often high-maintenance due to age and rough lives. Soon we may get our own American equivalent, though, in the form of a diesel-powered Jeep Wrangler.

Jeep has sold diesel models outside the U.S. for years, and even offered a diesel in the Grand Cherokee at times here as well, but the fuel's general dislike among mainstream buyers and the typically low horsepower (but high torque) of the engines that burn it have kept it from spreading further. That may change soon, as fuel economy pressures rise and emissions standards converge between Europe and the U.S.

The source of the new diesels for the Wrangler? The same engines that were planned for the Ram 1500: Cummins. Slotting the oil-burners into Jeeps wouldn't require much additional engineering or cost, so it may be the easiest route. New corporate overlord Fiat also owns a stake in VM Motori, however, which builds a wide range of diesel engines, and it may get the nod instead--especially as the Jeep Grand Cherokee's European brethren are already expected to get just such treatment.

Perhaps best of all, should the Grand Cherokee and Wrangler find solid diesel acceptance, the long-awaited return of the Jeep pickup might get the option as well.

Whichever way this diesel cookie crumbles, we're looking forward to it, as are many Jeep enthusiasts.

[grecy]

I've seen this show up online in a couple of places today:
from allpar apparently..

"Chrysler has been posted numerous jobs on careerbuilder.com for diesel engineers in the areas of application integration and development.

While this may be for products used in Europe, because those already have diesel options from VM, which is half-owned by Fiat Powertrain, it seems likely that these positions are for adapting diesel engines to vehicles sold in the United States.

As European emissions standards come closer to American standards, the economics of adapting VM and Fiat diesels to American products may be improving.

While there are also new Cummins engines which were planned for the Ram 1500 and possibly other vehicles, work on adapting these is reportedly nearly complete and would not require new hires. There is a possibility that Fiat has pressured Chrysler to switch vendors on the future diesel Ram 1500, but this seems less likely than repowering Jeeps, since the diesel Ram program was nearly complete. Numerous rumors of diesel-powered Wranglers for the United States and Canada have been making the rounds.

Many Jeep enthusiasts have criticized the use of the 3.8 liter V6 in the current Wrangler; it is set to be replaced in the 2012 model year by the Pentastar V6. Even before the 4-liter straight six was swapped out, however, the Jeep community was demanding a diesel, which has strong torque off the line and can greatly reduce fuel usage as well."

Fingers are crossed, though I highly doubt anything before the 2013 model year

-Dan

[AEV Conversions]

2-Door Wrangler Sport Diesel Manual. ( adjusted for US gallons )
33.1 mpg combined cycle
36.2 mpg urban cycle
28.3 mpg city cycle

I happen to have a 2011 2 Door Manual Diesel with Stop/Start and I can tell you that it can only get about 28mpg if you really really nurse it. Its more like 23.5 typical on winter diesel.

dh

[Jorsn]

If you really want a diesel in the jeep wrangler then we should start a petition. Audi did the same thing with a petition on facebook to gauge the interest in the tt-rs here in America. They got enough interest and now they are bringing it to the US in Q3 2011.

[Joker]

Want me to piss you off even more; they barely even drive Jeeps in the UK. I was in London for two weeks this past January for work and in the entire two weeks this was the only Jeep I saw.


http://i1191.photobucket.com/albums/z467/cmiller1080/Jeeps/LondonJeep.jpg

[Kelboski]

There is a gentleman on jeepforum that owned and sold a 2.8 VM diesel powered JKU. It was absolutely beautiful. I will try to furnish a link. I seem to remember that he purchased the engine and had it installed in Colorado and later moved to Georgia.

That was my JK.

I have another 4dr JK now, and trust me... I miss the VM Motori.



Kelbo

[jingram]

I happen to have a 2011 2 Door Manual Diesel with Stop/Start and I can tell you that it can only get about 28mpg if you really really nurse it. Its more like 23.5 typical on winter diesel.

dh

Dave, thanks for piping in and giving us real numbers! How do you like the start/stop tech? Is it intrusive at all or does it work well?

[grecy]

I happen to have a 2011 2 Door Manual Diesel with Stop/Start and I can tell you that it can only get about 28mpg if you really really nurse it. Its more like 23.5 typical on winter diesel.

dh

Hey Dave,

Thanks for commenting. Having you over here on expeditionportal commenting on a diesel thread shows you know how much we want a diesel wrangler.

Now that AEV is going to build diesel J8's, does that change the status of any possible diesel conversion kit for JK's? It's clear you guys can order all the parts needed, and you've mentioned before the motor and consumables are in the Chrysler parts system..

On the other hand, could AEV sell Diesel JK's using the same "kit car" loophole used for the J8?

Thanks again,
-Dan

P.S. You can see how much I want a diesel Wrangler, and I'm starting to think I'll go to any length to get one. I could just go back to Australia (my home country) and buy one, but then the steering wheel is on the wrong side... I'm thinking about buying and registering one in the cheapest place I can in Europe, then just shipping it where ever I want it....
There *must* be a better way.

[dp7197]

I happen to have a 2011 2 Door Manual Diesel with Stop/Start and I can tell you that it can only get about 28mpg if you really really nurse it. Its more like 23.5 typical on winter diesel.

dh

I've seen the RHD white one, please show us some pics of the diesel. Is 23.5mpg on stock tires or are you running your 3.5" lift and 35s?

[grecy]

Interesting info here: http://www.allpar.com/model/upcoming.html about upcoming stuff... :


“vwtodd” confirmed that the 2012 will include the Pentastar V6, and another source pegged horsepower at 260; it seems likely that high-end horsepower will be sacrificed for greater low-end torque. The transmission is still up for grabs, but oh2o has the WA580 going in... though some observers say it’s too long for the standard two-door Wrangler.

A diesel is being looked at, but needs to pass emissions at reasonable cost. An updated transfer case may appear, possibly bringing back a full-time setting for broader market appeal. Sheet metal changes will improve aerodynamics (strong chance of major windshield and front end redesign). There is a chance of some sort of "stripped" model as production line can now apply bedliner to tubs during assembly. Better quality is also expected.




VM Motori, now 50% owned by Fiat Powertrain, dominates Chrysler/Jeep in Europe. A Fiat diesel is reportedly being tested by Siemens for US certification in the 2012 Wrangler.


I'm finding all sorts of good stuff tonight...
A picture of the Fiat/Chrysler alliance plan on this page: http://www.allpar.com/cars/adopted/fiat/chrysler-fiat-alliance.html has some interesting stuff under Jeep Wrangler..
for 2010 and 2011 it lists Wrangler and Wrangler Unlimited.
Then for 2012 and 2013 it lists those same AND Wrangler Diesel and Wrangler Derivative
Maybe the listing of the diesels in '12 and '13 is only referring to the ones for export market, but then, why aren't they listed under 2010 and 2011?

Hmm..

-Dan

[uzj100]

Any new news on this one?

[Metcalf]

It is a complete shame that we cannot get the 2011 euro V diesel in the USA. I hope Jeep realizes that they are missing out not producing a diesel in the USA. I got the run around about how 'we are working on it' from the people at the EJS booth this year.

The only thing that annoys me, is now, with a DPF filter the 2011 diesels will not run on sub-par fuel if you want to travel south of the border....

The new stop start is weird too....you get some odd looks when it shuts off the engine at a light.

[OS-Aussie]

What years could you get a diesel GC and Liberty...?

GC 2007-2008 were the years, sadly I traded my 08 on my Mega Cab :Wow1:

I think it was something like 05-06 for the Liberty (07 was the smog change)

[grecy]

...The only thing that annoys me, is now, with a DPF filter the 2011 diesels will not run on sub-par fuel if you want to travel south of the border....

Do you have an idea how by-passable or this system is? *
Can we modify it in any way?

-Dan

* Yes, Yes, I know, it's illegal in blah blah countries, blah blah.
I don't care.
I'm not interested in bypassing the system for countries that actually have laws. What I choose to do with it in other countries is my business.

[Metcalf]

As far as I know.....no.

It is not just the particular filter itself, but the programming in the computer. There might also be something with the fuel quality affecting the injectors or CP3 pump in the late model diesels.

Sadly, the 2007+ diesels also don't like biodiesel supposedly...

This is the point I bang my head on the desk....

[Bill Beers]

...

This is the point I bang my head on the desk....

Because you're upset with the EPA? :sombrero:

[Metcalf]

yes.....

[srmitchell]

That's such a bummer that you can't use bio-diesel.

Either way... we want diesels!

[pskhaat]

If the Jeep marketplace (i.e. consumers) thought diesel was so great...


People will simply not buy them in any quantity. VW is the one exception...they cannot take risks with products they know consumers won't pay for.

How can either of these statements hold statistical water? Other than VW (correct) it is impossible to gauge demand if there are no sales figures to support it.

Did Jeep have lots of CRDs sitting on lots or at sub-profit prices to move them? Short answer is we don't know if the market will support diesel. There is no supply side to the equation. There are insignificant sales figures to signal most manufacturers' demands.

[The Swiss]

I did had a chance to drive a JK diesel in Europe. Loved the torque of the engine. Not the most refined diesel I ever drove, but matching very well the character of the JK. I definitely would get a diesel if available in the US.

[Metcalf]

The new 2011 diesel is great. Its significantly better than the J8 diesel ( basically the same as the last generation JK diesel ).

I was always impressed with the CRD liberty also....

I'm very tempted to try and attempt a LJ to CRD conversion. I think that is about the ONLY way to get a like OEM diesel jeep 'universal' in the USA ( without trying to import something ).

[TACODOC]

Did Jeep have lots of CRDs sitting on lots or at sub-profit prices to move them?

In all seriousness, Jeep screwed up when they put a CRD in a LIBERTY and not the JK. Let's just get real, that's just not a hot selling platform like the JK. There would be plenty of sales numbers to talk about had they put that in a JK instead of a Liberty...

[srmitchell]

Seriously, the diesel really went into some of the lamest jeeps ever made.

The wk is really ugly, and the kj is even worse.

(Sorry to the owners of these, I'm just not a fan.)

[Metcalf]

Just remember, even the KJ outsold expectations in the diesel version.
I am convinced that if they put the diesel in the JK it would be a monster selling point. The J8 would also sell fantastically if it was honestly offered.

[pskhaat]

Seriously, the diesel really went into some of the lamest jeeps ever made...The wk is really ugly, and the kj is even worse.

And yet look at the sales figures.

[TACODOC]

Just remember, even the KJ outsold expectations in the diesel version.


Only because people wanted the CRD above all else...

[bugnout]

Absolutely... I would have bought a Wrangler if it had the CRD.

So few choices in the market for diesel vehicles.

[scootr29]

Seriously, the diesel really went into some of the lamest jeeps ever made.

The wk is really ugly, and the kj is even worse.

(Sorry to the owners of these, I'm just not a fan.)

The diesel in my WK makes up for the ugliness....:sombrero:

[BAH]

The diesel in my WK makes up for the ugliness....:sombrero:


Totally agree...it is the inner beauty that counts...diesel beauty :)
Although, the WK looks a lot better with a lift and bigger tires

[chrismc]

Absolutely... I would have bought a Wrangler if it had the CRD.

So few choices in the market for diesel vehicles.

Ditto. I bought a KJ CRD because there was no TJ CRD. I traded my TJ Rubicon for it, even. That 13 mpg in the Rubi was killing me.

[FreeManDan]

This thread intrigues me, I think jeep COULD bring a diesel wrangle to market and people WOULD buy enough of them to be worth it. But what else is involved in a diesel under current EPA standards? Urea injection into the exhaust system, particle filter, ect...I can see a down side. Have you seen the exhaust on the new super duty powerstroke vs the 6.2l gas version? The diesel exhaust looks like something out of star wars, or nasa! Heat shielding everywhere because the urea makes that tail pipe hot, like burning charcoal in a blown furnace. Anyone more knowledgeable then me know if this would effect ground clearance, or space, or suspension parts under the vehicle?

[Metcalf]

There are some EPA factors that deal with how many vehicles and of what kind a company can produce for diesel emissions.

VW meets current diesel emissions without fluid after-treatment. I don't know if this is because it is a lighter vehicle and falls on a different table for emissions, or they are just that good. They do use a particulate filter.

The Euro V wrangler didn't look that much more complicated or busy on the underside. It has a diesel particulate filter. Supposedly it doesn't meet USA diesel emissions for its 'class'

The Euro VI version of the jeep engine coming in a few years is suppose to meet USA diesel emission for its class. It was rumored at EJS that this would require a fluid after-treatment.

For me....I am thinking about the 2.8 CRD from a Liberty in an LJ again :)

[Reichy]

How would one effectively convey public desire for a diesel Wrangler to corporate?
R

[pskhaat]

Welcome Reichy, I think most can assure you that the desire for diesel has well been conveyed. Sorry, but until someone with some cohones gets into proper Jeep executive management, you'll get gasser V6s for the foreseeable future. I'll be one of the first to reward said risk with a purchase. This applies to Toyota too who either A) have to be so biased and/or B) so bought-off on gasoline as the market.

[Metcalf]

i gave Jeep an earful at EJS. The response was 'we are working on it'.

If I had to guess. I would say that maybe we get the new 3.0 liter VM/Fiat diesel in 2013-2014 IF fuel prices get up to about $4.50 for gasoline.

[grecy]

How would one effectively convey public desire for a diesel Wrangler to corporate?
R

If there is no announcement by the end of May, I'll be doing something big about this. :)
There will be a post here about it when & if it happens.

-Dan

[grecy]

If I had to guess. I would say that maybe we get the new 3.0 liter VM/Fiat diesel in 2013-2014 IF fuel prices get up to about $4.50 for gasoline.

I agree.
Fingers crossed they can tweak 30mpg out of the Unlimited, and I'll be the first in line to buy.

-Dan

[srmitchell]

i gave Jeep an earful at EJS. The response was 'we are working on it'.

If I had to guess. I would say that maybe we get the new 3.0 liter VM/Fiat diesel in 2013-2014 IF fuel prices get up to about $4.50 for gasoline.

If? I've been paying $4.49 for a month!

[Metcalf]

Dang! we are at 3.99 here in Durango. I think national average is just over $4 now.

[lbarcher]

"we are working on it" is probably corporate speak for "go away".

Frankly, the Wrangler would have been a better place for the diesel than the Liberty or Grand.
I'll believe the future diesel Wrangler when I see it.

[Metcalf]

Maybe....

At this point with the need for particulate filters and Urea fluids, I think the vehicle technology I wanted is already past. The J8 program is kinda the last hope for a new vehicle that I would want.

[BeachBum]

Just to give you an idea of what one of the diesels cost here in Spain check out this site.

http://www.coches.net/coches-de-ocasion.aspx?pg=1&fi=Price&or=-1&MakeId=21&ModelId=614

I have a good friend who has a Wrangler Sahara CRD auto here in Madrid and loves but has had his share of problems.

You will occasionally see a Rubicon CRD but when they cost around 45,000€, I've never seen one on the street. Think of the exchange rate and you're pretty close to $70k. And trying to keep up with traffic on the freeways that normally cruise at 140kph is ridiculous.

Nice though for playing on his ranch near Cuenca.

[pskhaat]

4X pricing right now makes everything foreign (even if domestic product abroad) look expensive though.

[charlieaarons]

In Australia the average is US$6.00/gal but I saw as high as US$8.00/gal on my last trip, in the Outback.
There's a thread on the Forum about Suburbans that get <10mpg. Pretty pathetic when you realize my Unimog that weighs as much as 4 Suburbans gets 9mpg.

Charlie

[alosix]

Maybe....

At this point with the need for particulate filters and Urea fluids, I think the vehicle technology I wanted is already past. The J8 program is kinda the last hope for a new vehicle that I would want.

Yup.. The vehicle I wanted just isn't possible anymore. It would have been right around when the libby got the engine for a little while, but alas the wrangler I have in my head just can't be built right now.

The next hope.. turbo direct injected gasoline. Or flying unicorn powered electric wrangler. :)

Jason

[Metcalf]

I guess the Pentastar is confirmed for the 2012 wrangler. I heard 285hp?

[irishcoffee]

Gents,
Personally I am pleased with my CRD 2,8 Unlimited Sport JK (Euro 4 - 2009 product).

Pros are on the net and on the marketing materials on all walls (my Pros = excellent torque - 410 NM and goes to 468 with a good tuning kit).

Cons:
- Regarding 2,8 CRD Engine
--- slow response but hey yes it's a diesel at the end of the day;
--- sensitive with Cip tunings (increase from 177 to 210 HP) enters into Limp Mode if not proper setting performed; here depends on the tuning kit if you'd wish one;
--- real fuel consumption 4x2 with 32" BFG AT/Ko Tires and Front ARB Deluxe Bumper + M800 Warn goes to 12,5-13 Liters/100km which is by far higher than brochure specifications 10 l/100km; my figures are after a overland 5000 km expedition into the Balkans which included also highway and rugged terrain, etc;

- Regarding 2,8 CRD Engine (high torque) + NSG370 Mercedes Gearbox + Sachs origin double flywheel clutch :
- I do believe that this matching was done in a hurry and are a wrong compromise from Chrysler for the Wrangler fans (especially those like me which choose stick);
ADVICE: DO NOT choose manual (stick) diesel if you rock-crawling or HD stuff (muds, etc.) because sooner or later beside the bad smell you will grab deep in your pockets for getting an entire clutch system; no HD clutches for CRD engines are available in this moment on the market; to machine this Sachs clutch for the CRD is risky and I am not the lab rat for that price;
- maybe Fiat will bring some improvements here for the stick lovers but I am not pleased at all about this present clutch; I say this not because I had to change the clutch but compared to Mitsu or Toy there is a considerable difference in clutch response;
- on this mater a more detailed discussion including some samples of clutches on the australian jeep forum - http://www.ausjeepoffroad.com/forum/showthread.php?t=104341

- the other CONS such as :
------sway electronic (I had changed 2 during warranty and the last one I've disconnected twice only; if will broke again I will crack it like the buddies from jk-owners.com)
------ poor cooling of the VM 2,8 - a better fan and a new hood (better than AEV :-)) is required
------ or other say easy stuff I've already changed them (yes including some clunking latches) under warranty;

Considering the above and beside all the TSB (if you know them in EU because otherwise Jeep dealers are not happy to see you in their shop for free works to be performed)
I am still a big Wrangler fan! Love this car and I say this after I play with my wife's Fiat 500 around the city! :costumed-smiley-007

Cheers,

John