Arizona/Grand Canyon May 2011

[lam396]

I'm a long time lurker here but this is my first time posting. I have really enjoyed seeing how many people are getting their kids out and enjoying outdoor activities with them.

I am looking for a little advice/help with a trip plan. I was going to put this in the adventure planning section but since I will be travelling with my wife and son who will be 10 months old, I thought it appropriate to post in the family section. We are wanting to go on a trip to the Grand Canyon and do some camping. The tenative plan is to be at the NR around the 22nd of May. I have to be back at work on the 31st so we have a bit of time to play to with. Most (or all) of the Canyon part of the trip will be at the North Rim and we are wanting to camp at Point Sublime and possibly torroweap too.

From there I have a couple of questions. I have been wanting to do the first part of the North Kaibab hike to roaring springs, is that a resonable hike with a baby ( I will have a Deuter child carrier)? And we are also looking for other things to do or places to go. I was thinking we could go up to S. Utah and see Zion or one of the parks there. I would really like to go into a slot canyon and be able to take some pictures and maybe some neat hikes that are doable with a baby, particulalry hikes to waterfalls (the wife loves waterfalls) but I guess what I'm looking for is recomendations and advice on what is practical for having a baby along. We want to camp as much as possible but if we have to grab a cheap hotel one night that will be fine. And we are not limited to N. AZ, I was just thinking that reducing the amount of drive time with the baby would be best if we can fill our time with things in the relative area. I would really appreciate any advice or hidden gems that you would be willing to share. Oh, and I also wanted to go to the Mexican Hat, swinging steak grill, is that a family friendly place?

I have a fullsize chevy 4x4 with 255/80's so I will be limited to terrain that a big truck can go over.

[Bogo]

http://www.nps.gov/grca/planyourvisit/hours.htm
http://www.nps.gov/grca/planyourvisit/tuweep.htm

It'll be cold. Also some of the more primitive roads around the North Rim will likely still be closed due to snow cover and or mud.

There are allot of interesting spots along the North Rim. and in the lands north of the canyon.

[lam396]

Wow, I guess I hadnt realized how cold it could get at night. Maybe I will reconsider the time frame and push it back a month or so. Thanks for the heads up.

Still kinda curious if the North Kaibab trail to roaring springs is doable with a baby. I will dig into the NP websites a little more but I find them lacking substance. I have bookmarked a couple threads from here detailling N. AZ but its hard to tell how it will be with a baby. My wife has never been to AZ and it has been nearly a decade since I have been out there.

Thanks in advance for any info

[Desert Dan]

Bing some bug spray/ repellant just in case

I was out on the North Rim AZ Strip in May-June and and an encounter with no see-ums.

[lam396]

"Bing some bug spray/ repellant just in case"

Bug spray-check. Its on the packing list, thanks for the heads up. What kind of temps did you run into?

[ThomD]

"Bing some bug spray/ repellant just in case"

Bug spray-check. Its on the packing list, thanks for the heads up. What kind of temps did you run into?

Mid June 2010. The North Rim is around 8000 feet. The next day (and week), temps were in the 40s (L) and 60s (H). Plan for anything.

http://tandemhearts.smugmug.com/photos/1158207518_hjiCr-M.jpg

Average temps are listed here http://www.grand.canyon.national-park.com/weather.htm

[sjk99]

Check around on this site: http://hikearizona.com/dex2/index.php

The "triplog" link at the top leads to hike descriptions organized by trail name so "N" for North Kaibab for instance. HAZForum link for the forums. And of course search. :)

[Lichen]

As far as taking a baby, when I was in graduate school I was working at the GC. My professor and his wife decided to take their baby to the bottom. We hiked down the South Kaibab, spent a couple of nights, and they hiked out the same trail (I went up on the Bright Angel). So if you're up to the task of carrying the kid, it's completely doable. Just don't slip and fall!

[lam396]

Just don't slip and fall!


HAHA that is my wifes fear (and mine but I wont tell her). That is really what I wanted to hear, that I wouldn't be the first person to take their baby below the rim. I think the other trails in the area will be no problem but I just wanted a little confirmation on this one.

We are discussing schedules and may be pushing it back to late June but really not sure yet. We may just take the gamble and bring warm clothes and an extra sleeping bag partly because I get 2 free days off work if we keep the current timeline and partly becuase we want to beat the crowds.

Maybe I should also post in the planning section regarding additional plans in the area?

[lamontagne]

Wieght wise, carring a kid is of little difference to carring a full pack. If you are in reasonable shape it should be no problem.

The big difference though, is a pack doesn't squirm, require food and fluids, or needs to be protected from the elements. I have hiked both the north and south rim to the bottom and the Bright Angel trail is the only one that provides any kind of shade. The North and South Kiabab trails are almost full exposure all the way down.

If you take your toddler with, be prepared for an 8 hour hike to Roaring Springs and back. Also be warned that the first 2 or 3 miles of trail will still be covered (or patchy) with snow and ice well into May.

Zoin in May is beautiful. It will be cool, but not so cold as the North Rim. And the it wont have too many visitors yet. One thing to be mindful about in Zions slot canyons is May is the beginning of flash flood season (snow melt and spring storms).

[lam396]

Wieght wise, carring a kid is of little difference to carring a full pack. If you are in reasonable shape it should be no problem.

The big difference though, is a pack doesn't squirm, require food and fluids, or needs to be protected from the elements. I have hiked both the north and south rim to the bottom and the Bright Angel trail is the only one that provides any kind of shade. The North and South Kiabab trails are almost full exposure all the way down.

If you take your toddler with, be prepared for an 8 hour hike to Roaring Springs and back. Also be warned that the first 2 or 3 miles of trail will still be covered (or patchy) with snow and ice well into May.

Zoin in May is beautiful. It will be cool, but not so cold as the North Rim. And the it wont have too many visitors yet. One thing to be mindful about in Zions slot canyons is May is the beginning of flash flood season (snow melt and spring storms).

Thanks for the insight. I didn't realize there would still be snow on the upper parts of the trails. And I will definatly look into the Bright Angel Trail since it provides some shaded areas.

I think we have decided to push it back to mid to end of June. I'm working on putting together a schedule/plan and we are debating on whether or not to stay in Arizona or go to S. Utah. Our other options are to go to the Sedona area. Can't seem to make up our mind. We will be coming into the area from I-70 and then I-15 South. After that I was thinking it would be cool to keep it all dirt roads (or as much as possible).

[lam396]

If we are in Zion in mid to late June, do we still have to worry as much about the flash floods? I think we may have pushed it back to June 18-25th. I hope that should mitigate the cold weather some (hope fully the chance of snow at least) but not put us to close the the 4th of July crowds. Altought it would be awesome to find some great fireworks displays. We were in Silverton CO for the 4th a cple years ago and that was awesome. Maybe I need to reconsider dealing with the crowds!

[Lichen]

If you're waiting until mid-June, I would go to the North Rim as the South will be packed with tourists.

[lam396]

If you're waiting until mid-June, I would go to the North Rim as the South will be packed with tourists.

Yeah, the plan is to see the North Rim. I don't think the S. Rim is really a consideration at this point. I am still trying to decide where the trip will take us. We are planning on Sublime Point and Torroweap and a couple other main points on the N. RIm

The trouble is where to spend the remainder of the time. We are pretty flexible but I am thinking of staying north and east of the N. Rim. I have several threads bookmarked that I have been going through for recomendations. They are:
http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=42122&highlight=Toroweap
http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17291&highlight=Toroweap
http://expeditionportal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15013
http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=42162&highlight=Toroweap
http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=48157

Most of these were found using Toroweap as the key word on the portal. I'm still combing through them and looking for more. Any suggestions on places to go and camp would be great. I just have to keep in mind I'm in a fullsize and camping with a 10 month old.

[BLKNBLU]

Hmm... I'm always hesitant to give Grand Canyon hiking advice to folks I don't know. I've seen fat people do OK and marathoners die so it's a crap shoot. If your a strong hiker and have carried your child before or can practice it before the trip, you should be alright. Just use your common sense and remember you are going downhill first so the self limiting factor of "climbing" is not there. As far as the weather, yes, it can snow in May. It is unlikely to pose a problem though. I've been there twice with snow in May:

http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14895

http://www.yotatech.com/f100/arizona-strip-grand-canyon-southern-utah-central-nevada-trip-212020/

...and both times it was a non issue. More of an interesting aside. The main hwy 67 from Jacob Lake to the GCNP is closed until May 15th so that gives you an idea. The powers that be are very conservative/cautious in that respect. As far as spots to go, it looks like you already have some really good threads and recommendations on tap. Where will you be travelling to/from?

Also, a nice site with lots of good trail info.
http://www.bobspixels.com/kaibab.org/bc/gc_trail.htm#north

[lam396]

Hmm... I'm always hesitant to give Grand Canyon hiking advice to folks I don't know. I've seen fat people do OK and marathoners die so it's a crap shoot. If your a strong hiker and have carried your child before or can practice it before the trip, you should be alright. Just use your common sense and remember you are going downhill first so the self limiting factor of "climbing" is not there. As far as the weather, yes, it can snow in May. It is unlikely to pose a problem though. I've been there twice with snow in May:

http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14895

http://www.yotatech.com/f100/arizona-strip-grand-canyon-southern-utah-central-nevada-trip-212020/

...and both times it was a non issue. More of an interesting aside. The main hwy 67 from Jacob Lake to the GCNP is closed until May 15th so that gives you an idea. The powers that be are very conservative/cautious in that respect. As far as spots to go, it looks like you already have some really good threads and recommendations on tap. Where will you be travelling to/from?

Also, a nice site with lots of good trail info.
http://www.bobspixels.com/kaibab.org/bc/gc_trail.htm#north

I really appreciate the advice and concern. I think that the N. Kaibab trail to roaring springs is the only trail we will do that will go below the rim. For all the reasons you mentioned above I dont want to push it especially with the son and wife. From my research I'm pretty confident that I can make it to the springs and back with no problem.

If it was just my wife and me I wouldnt be concerned about cold/snow but I'm a little more hesitant with my son. Its harder to keep a baby warm and happy but I really would prefer my original dates due to my work schedule. I guess in reality I can wait untill its closer to make the call on when to go and watch some forecasts for the area.

I will be coming from St. Louis, so the plan was I-70 west then south on I-15. That will get me in the area I want to be in then jump over to Fredonia as a start. And from there I'm not sure the order of my destinations but I have started a google map and will update that and hopefully get it posted by the end of the week.

Again, I really appreciate the advice.

[Ed B]

Is camping allowed at Point Sublime?

[BLKNBLU]

It looks like I mentioned Pt Sublime in one of my other posts (linked by the OP) but in looking at it more closely, I believe Ed B is right that Sublime is within the Park boundaries and therefore no camping. If you follow the map up north from there though you find that the park boundary at some point just follows the rim of the canyon. In those spots you can be right at the edge but not "in the park" so camping is allowed. Check Fire,Timp, Monument, Crazy Jug, and maybe Tiyo points.

I understand if you're from east of here why you would want to work your way back east. If you get as far as west Toroweap then Zion is not really out of the way. Slot canyons can be found straight north of the GCNP/Jacob Lake area.
http://www.wildbackpacker.com/destination/buckskin/buckskingulch.html

East of Page is an area called Antelope canyon, a very picturesque slot canyon. It is also highly controlled, touristy and only visited with a Native American guide. Not some folks cup of tea, but google up some photos and you might still want to go.

Mexican Hat and Goosenecks I'll have to leave for the Utah guys. I don't know much about them (yet).

Almost forgot. If you get out to Toroweap, google up "Nampaweap rock art" which is also right in the area.

[lam396]

Is camping allowed at Point Sublime?

I was under the assumption that camping was allowed with a permit. Is this not the case? If not we will just back track into the NF and find a nice spot like BLKNBLU on his trip.

I will look into Antelope Canyon. We tend to shy away from "tourist" areas but it might be a good introduction to our first slot canyons, especially with the risks of flash floods.

Thanks for the heads up on the rock art! I think we are definatly going to check it out.

[ThomD]

I was under the assumption that camping was allowed with a permit. Is this not the case? If not we will just back track into the NF and find a nice spot like BLKNBLU on his trip.

I will look into Antelope Canyon. We tend to shy away from "tourist" areas but it might be a good introduction to our first slot canyons, especially with the risks of flash floods.

Thanks for the heads up on the rock art! I think we are definatly going to check it out.

Camping at Point Sublime can be done with a permit. Check the NPS site for details. The guide book I have says of the route out "high clearance vehicles...overhead clearance is tight for anyone carrying bikes on the roof".

[lam396]

Well, due to some changes at work, we have had to push the trip back. Originally planned for late May, we won't be able to go until the last week of July or the first week of Aug. I can see average temps for the N. rim but should we avoid going during that time due to heat? I have also read that thunderstorms are possible so I dont really want to get rained out either. If we go we will most likely pass on the N. Kaibab trail due to the higher temps below the rim but we could decide that when we get there.

If we don't go to the GC our other options will probably take us to Yellowstone. Any words of advice?

[ExpediT-100n]

Well, due to some changes at work, we have had to push the trip back. Originally planned for late May, we won't be able to go until the last week of July or the first week of Aug. I can see average temps for the N. rim but should we avoid going during that time due to heat? I have also read that thunderstorms are possible so I dont really want to get rained out either. If we go we will most likely pass on the N. Kaibab trail due to the higher temps below the rim but we could decide that when we get there.

If we don't go to the GC our other options will probably take us to Yellowstone. Any words of advice?

I worked at the North Rim for two seasons when I was fresh out of High School. You will have no problems there with the higher temps as it is a forested area. I do not remember anything significant about the rainstorms that time of year so cannot comment on that.

Kevin

[lam396]

Ok, it's time to finalize some plans. As of right now the tenative plan is to camp at the north rim camp ground Sat, Sun and Mon night. Then on Tues get up and make the drive to Point Sublime. We will camp there Tues and Wed night. We will probably drive some of the trails to some other points close to PS those two days. After staying at PS I am kinda lost on what our plans will be. I have decided to skip Torroweap because I have read that since it is much lower that it will be pretty hot and I think we want to try to stay some what cool. I will be bringing our bikes and chariot trailer for the kid so I was thinking about finding some bike trails or FSR in the National Forest that we could get some good views in on the bikes but it would have to be capable of having a trailer in tow. We will be leaving for home on Saturday so I'm thinking that it may be nice to stay at the North Rim campground Fri night to take advantage of the showers before the 24 hr drive home. So really, that just leaves Thurs night up in the air, unless we should only stay at Sublime for one night, rather than two. And in that case, I guess Wed and Thurs could be spent at another location if there was bike trails and/or hiking trails to keep us busy for a couple days.

Also, since this is getting close to departure date, should I have this moved to the adventure planning section for more visiblity?

I really appreciate all the advice. This is going to be my wifes first trip with any camping that could be considered remote so I want to make it great for her (and my son) so that she has a desire to continue to do them and to make them increasingly remote and adventerous.

[4671 Hybrid]

Just a note that if your little one has an "accident" on the road, Flying J and most major truckstops have showers for $5. Since you mentioned the 24hr drive home, I thought I'd put it out there in case you didn't know.

Also, make sure that you ride the bikes and trailer on the same types of road conditions as the trails you're thinking of. It's one thing to tow a trailer on a smooth road but entirely another on a bumpy trail. I have a double wide trailer and while my kids used to love all the bumps and jolts, man was it hard to pedal and pull that thing!

[lam396]

Thanks for the advice about the showers. With the baby wipes and such, I think we should be able to avoid that assuming we leave clean! I am a little nervous about the trailer since I haven't had it out on really bumpy trails but I will be getting to some before we depart.

Any other recomendations for how long to stay in each spot? I may have convinced the wife that we can camp at spots with no toilet so camping in the Kaibab NF is another option for a couple days so that we can bike or hike right out of the camp spot. That is one of the reasons I think only 1 night at Point Sublime will be enough since there are no real trail heads at or near the camp that I am aware of. If that isn't correct, let me know.

Thanks for any hints, tips or advice...

[ThomD]

Rainbow Rim. Runs along the canyon rim. Designed fo rmountain bikes, but a very nice hikink route. Camp around Locust Point. No facilities, but plenty of quiet.

[lam396]

Rainbow Rim. Runs along the canyon rim. Designed fo rmountain bikes, but a very nice hikink route. Camp around Locust Point. No facilities, but plenty of quiet.

The Rainbow Rim trail was recomended by someone else as well. I think we will check it out and at least hike it. I have seen very few pictures of it because I have been rather unsuccesfull finding info on it...do you think I would be able to pull my kid trailer with my bike on it or is it to technical?

[Micky]

I love to visit the canyon and the photography of the the canyon thanks
for providing this location and I am going to visit these locations.

[lam396]

I finally got around to posting a trip report if you would all like to view it. I really appreciate all the info and advice given.

http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/72442-North-Rim-Grand-Canyon-2011