Another opinion

[riverfever]

I am completely anal about my XJ. Noises, and things like that simply must be tracked down. It's a 96 and had Rustys 3" full leaf kit until recently. The coils had sagged so much and it was not level so I swapped some stuff. Here's the specs now:
Full 3" leafs with Chevy lowering shackles (they actually raise the Cherokee about 2")
RE 3.5 coils and .75" spacer.
Skylacker fixed LCA's.
Track bar relocation bracket.

I guess this stuff raised it up about an inch from where it was and leveled it out. I was really happy with how it sat afterwards. I did get it aligned. I definitely notice it handles differently now though. It seems to require a lot more corrective steering while traveling at highway speeds. I don't think it follows grooves in the road and the steering wheel does not jerk in my hands from bumps. My friends that have 8" lifts and 35-37's tell me to stop being a woos and drive it. They say if it handles differently it's just b/c it's a lifted XJ. This can't be right though. I wonder if the trackbar and draglink angles are screwy or it has something to do with the relocation bracket? I'm hearing a lot of guys say that bracket is garbage and can cause bumpsteer. I'll get a pic of my angles if it will help. I don't think I'd want to drive the thing on a long road trip right now b/c something just doesn't feel right. Thanks.

-river

[Fergie]

I am completely anal about my XJ. Noises, and things like that simply must be tracked down. It's a 96 and had Rustys 3" full leaf kit until recently. The coils had sagged so much and it was not level so I swapped some stuff. Here's the specs now:
Full 3" leafs with Chevy lowering shackles (they actually raise the Cherokee about 2")
RE 3.5 coils and .75" spacer.
Skylacker fixed LCA's.
Track bar relocation bracket.

I guess this stuff raised it up about an inch from where it was and leveled it out. I was really happy with how it sat afterwards. I did get it aligned. I definitely notice it handles differently now though. It seems to require a lot more corrective steering while traveling at highway speeds. I don't think it follows grooves in the road and the steering wheel does not jerk in my hands from bumps. My friends that have 8" lifts and 35-37's tell me to stop being a woos and drive it. They say if it handles differently it's just b/c it's a lifted XJ. This can't be right though. I wonder if the trackbar and draglink angles are screwy or it has something to do with the relocation bracket? I'm hearing a lot of guys say that bracket is garbage and can cause bumpsteer. I'll get a pic of my angles if it will help. I don't think I'd want to drive the thing on a long road trip right now b/c something just doesn't feel right. Thanks.

-river


Riv,

Your TB and DL should be EXACTLY parallel to each other for best results. I had a relocation bracket on my 95, and got rid of it in favor of a Kevin's TB conversion, same as the RE HD model. It made the ride a lot better steering wise.

It could also be your CA angles. If they are too steep, they transfer more impact into the body of the XJ as oppossed to the suspension of it.

A pic of you CA and DL/TB angles would be good.

[\\'anderer]

I would toss the trackbar bracket and get a heavy duty trackbar for a lifted XJ. Like Fergie said the angles need to be exact, The more you can keep the angles to factory specs. the better and safer it will ride.
Please post pic's

[riverfever]

Hey Fergie!

I was wondering about it after finding this pic of another XJ:
http://i19.tinypic.com/4udn32b.jpg

This is about what mine looks like and this guy is running the same bracket too and dealing with similar issues. I will post pics of my front end tomorrow. Thanks...both of you.

[Fergie]

Hey Fergie!

I was wondering about it after finding this pic of another XJ:
http://i19.tinypic.com/4udn32b.jpg

This is about what mine looks like and this guy is running the same bracket too and dealing with similar issues. I will post pics of my front end tomorrow. Thanks...both of you.

What you need to do is to draw some lines.

One from mount point to mount point on the TB, and one from the steering box mount to the DL/TR connection. Those two line need to be parallel, or within a few degrees.

And ditch the bracket. Redrill the stock mount, go OAB(too much IMO), or get an HD bracket for the body side.

CA angle pic?

[riverfever]

This isn't my XJ so I'll get pics of the TB/DL and CA's tomorrow. I used the bracket b/c I wanted to have the axle centered. I guess this trade off wasn't worth it. I realize the bracket should be a temporary fix until I can do it right with an adjustable TB.

[\\'anderer]

the highlighted lines show the angles that should be as close to parallel as possible.7540

[\\'anderer]

Here is my friends jeep with some better angles
7542

[riverfever]

Thanks Mike. I just can't believe that would make it so sketchy to drive. On mine, it looks like if I just ditched the bracket and used an adjustable TB (like you both said), the lines would be really close. I researched a bit and some guys (not here) were saying drop pitman arm but that would make things worse. Does your buddy just have an adjustable TB? Also...what lift is that Jeep at? Pics of mine are coming.

[Bob_Sheaves]

Since you guys are playing with one of the vehicles I worked on at JTE, I hope you don't mind me adding some more information on this:

1. The statement about keeping the panhard rod (commonly called a track bar) and the draglink is absolutely correct. Keep them exactly parallel through the JOINTS (the bar itself does not matter, except in the case of bending-the more offset between the bar and the "action axis" through the joints, the greater the bending force on the bar itself). Anytime motion changes direction, the geometric intersection of the force axis of "A" and "B" (whatever components A & B are) is the actual location of the change, not the connecting bars, links, or whatever.

2. The steeper the total angle between the axle end joints and the body end joints, relative to the horizontal wheel end to wheel end axis, the more lateral "head toss", or lateral body movement, you will have, which induces the death wobble when it phases with the bending of a high offsett in the bars themselves, as well as true bump steer in the steering geometry. In other words, the included angle between the 2 axis causes the amount of curve to the arc of the panhard rod movement (the greater swing the axle has-since it does not move straight up and down, relative to the body.

--Sidebar comment, nice explanation Fergie. Ya done good!

Best regards,

Bob Sheaves
CEO
catNET Incorporated
http://www.catnetsolutions.com

[\\'anderer]

Here is an article I found.

http://oramagazine.com/pastIssues/0407-issue/index.asp?article=finesse

[\\'anderer]

Oh, and the Jeep has a RE 3.5" lift with a RE adjustable HD trackbar and it drives great.

My XJ has a 3" lift with a 4WD hardware adjustable trackbar and it drives like a go cart, better than stock.:rally_guys:

[Bob_Sheaves]

Nice article Wanderer...thanks for posting it.

I only see one glaring error in that article, that information of the pitman arm lowering is not nearly as "warning" to the end user about modifying the pitman arm offset. From an OEM standpoint (remember, I am speaking of ultimate durability and liability), dropping the pitman arm attachment point of the drag link is verboten. The Saginaw 708 gearbox as used on the XJ/MJ/ZJ/and WJ is NOT strong enough to properly drop the pitman arm boss....and live to OEM requirements (key word in that statement..."OEM").

The lower shaft pivot will fail under any increase in the stock offset distance. Additionally, the box mounting needs extensive reinforcement, as does the panhard rod mounting to prevent cracks in the unit body construction. This was a warrenty problem for all the mentioned models and many owners were upset that Chrysler would not pay for repairs when the poorly designed kits caused metal fatigue and failure of those components. Of all those that sued for the repairs, all lost their case against Chrysler (as well as AMC, earlier).

The proper "fix" for those problems is not inexpensive. Look at any of the Jeep Factory offroad race cars from 1987 thru 1991 (I had Chrysler engineering responsibility for all those vehicles from Walter Voss-head at that time of Jeep Motorsports).

Of course, you may do what you wish, but be aware of the responsibility you are incurring by modifying the pitman arm and associated components.

Best regards,

Bob Sheaves
CEO
catNET Incorporated
http://www.catnetsolutions.com

[\\'anderer]

I agree Bob, I do not like drop pitman arms or any other "patch" type of linkage/bracket. I would rather change the steering as a system. Though I have no experience with OTK conversions, some of them look like a good way to correct steering angles for higher lifts.

7572

[riverfever]

Ok guys here's where I'm at now after having someone with lots more experience look at it with me today:

I have multiple issues going on. The tie rod at the frame end of the track bar is trashed. The tie rod itself at the passengers knuckle is also trashed. With 125,000 miles on the OE steering components, I'm sure they're due for replacement. Another major problem is with the Skyjacker LCA's. The bushings are trashed. I guess all this stuff combined is really wreaking havoc on the front end. So...I'm going to order either the RE HD trackbar or Kevins (not sure which yet). I'll ditch the relocation bracket and that will get the angles closer to where they need to be. I'll do new bushings in the LCA's too. I think I'm going to do a ZJ V8 steering conversion instead of messing with replacing the worn stuff with XJ parts. To top it off...I'll do new 32x11.50 BFG AT's on Rockcrawler wheels after the steering is sourced out.

What do you guys think? I'm kinda bummed about all the money it's gonna cost me but this is all stuff that's gonna happen eventually and, knock on wood, I've been really lucky with my XJ. Thanks for all your help. If you have any thoughts about my plans, I'd love to hear them.

-Chris

[Fergie]

Ok guys here's where I'm at now after having someone with lots more experience look at it with me today:

I have multiple issues going on. The tie rod at the frame end of the track bar is trashed. The tie rod itself at the passengers knuckle is also trashed. With 125,000 miles on the OE steering components, I'm sure they're due for replacement. Another major problem is with the Skyjacker LCA's. The bushings are trashed. I guess all this stuff combined is really wreaking havoc on the front end. So...I'm going to order either the RE HD trackbar or Kevins (not sure which yet). I'll ditch the relocation bracket and that will get the angles closer to where they need to be. I'll do new bushings in the LCA's too. I think I'm going to do a ZJ V8 steering conversion instead of messing with replacing the worn stuff with XJ parts. To top it off...I'll do new 32x11.50 BFG AT's on Rockcrawler wheels after the steering is sourced out.

What do you guys think? I'm kinda bummed about all the money it's gonna cost me but this is all stuff that's gonna happen eventually and, knock on wood, I've been really lucky with my XJ. Thanks for all your help. If you have any thoughts about my plans, I'd love to hear them.

-Chris

Drop the dime for Kevin's stuff, and never worry about it again. The Zj V8 components can be had for around $80 if you shop right.

For the CAs, get some new bushings(not very expensive), but also check you UCA bushings on the axle end, the frame end too. The axle ones a re a pain, but often overlooked, and were the source of my DW.

[Bongo Boy]

The symptom mentioned doesn't sound like bump steer and wouldn't have been experienced anyway under the conditions mentioned, I don't think. Am I wrong? I understand those angles could be improved and that it's possible bump steer is just waiting to happen when that front end traversal increases off-road. I'm just suggesting that this might fix a different problem than the one mentioned.

My limited experience is with my 4"+ lift, where the rig wouldn't center up at all after a steering input. Move the wheel right or left and let go, the rig would stay on that new course. I'm thinking you might feel this symptom as one of needing more correction at the wheel. I looked at caster and it was definitely at the low end of the recommended range--and that's for a stock vehicle.

Anyway, did the alignment guys give you a printout that includes before and after caster? I added in enough to take me to the maximum (or even a degree over) recommended in the service manual. This eliminated all problems up front (along with toe-in correction, of course).

As far as 'heavy duty' stuff, my opinion is that the geometry has to be corrected in any case--and you can do that with the gear you have. All heavy duty does is help ensure that the geometry to select stays that way--it could just as well be wrong or right with light weight or heavy duty.

I'm definitely not an expert, so if I'm missing something please let me know. It's just that the symptom reported seems like more of a 'steady state' problem, whereas the tb/dl angle issue is a dynamic one--to me. I think I also understand that, just because something "worked for me" doesn't make it right, so I'm all ears.

[riverfever]

LCA's have new bushings installed and that made a big difference. I'm ordering Kevins track bar next. The tires and ZJ stuff will come after that.

[Bongo Boy]

Well that's nice. Hopefully 'Kevins track bar' will straighten out all your issues. I'm totally baffled about why anyone thinks 'track bar' was a problem in this case. Can someone give me a clue?

Chrome windshield hinges might have fixed the problem, too. Any thoughts as to why they'd do less than "Kevin's trackbar"? WTF is 'Kevin' anyway?

[\\'anderer]

2 reasons I thought it was a trackbar bracket issue

1. Seat of the pants experience with the trackbar brackets causing a wierd feeling going down the road. I cant explain why, but changing the parts provided a better feeling steering on the road.

2. Chrome windshield hinges lower the co-efficient of drag therby causing an imbalance of the antenna wind drag ,causing the jeep to pull to the right.:confused:

[OverlandZJ]

Well that's nice. Hopefully 'Kevins track bar' will straighten out all your issues. I'm totally baffled about why anyone thinks 'track bar' was a problem in this case. Can someone give me a clue?

Chrome windshield hinges might have fixed the problem, too. Any thoughts as to why they'd do less than "Kevin's trackbar"? WTF is 'Kevin' anyway?


Riverfever raising the axle end of the trackbar (w/ Kevins/RE etc) to the stock location it will bring the angle closer to paralell with the draglink. This should improve his handling characteristics...no? He could go further and lower the body end of the trackbar and install a dropped pitman to bring these angles closer to horizontal which as i understand also improves handling.

With the dropped pitman (as mentioned earlier) you run a risk of tearing the steering box from the unibody in tougher terrain, a plate such as the C-Rok setup would strengthen and make this less likely.

The chrome remark was a bit "pirateish"... we try to be a bit more friendly here.

[Bob_Sheaves]

Well that's nice. Hopefully 'Kevins track bar' will straighten out all your issues. I'm totally baffled about why anyone thinks 'track bar' was a problem in this case. Can someone give me a clue?

Chrome windshield hinges might have fixed the problem, too. Any thoughts as to why they'd do less than "Kevin's trackbar"? WTF is 'Kevin' anyway?
Reread my comments on the geometry. I am a "little" familiar with the problems of the XK/MJ/ZJ/BR suspension, as I was responsible for all 4x4's on the BR program at JTE. If you do not understand, please ask about whatever part of the explanation you fail to understand. I do not read minds.... :)

Best regards,

Bob Sheaves
CEO
catNET Incorporated
http://www.catnetsolutions.com

[Bob_Sheaves]

Riverfever raising the axle end of the trackbar (w/ Kevins/RE etc) to the stock location it will bring the angle closer to paralell with the draglink. This should improve his handling characteristics...no? He could go further and lower the body end of the trackbar and install a dropped pitman to bring these angles closer to horizontal which as i understand also improves handling.

With the dropped pitman (as mentioned earlier) you run a risk of tearing the steering box from the unibody in tougher terrain, a plate such as the C-Rok setup would strengthen and make this less likely.

The chrome remark was a bit "pirateish"... we try to be a bit more friendly here.
Absolutely correct on all counts...glad to see you understood the explanation.

Best regards,

Bob Sheaves
CEO
catNET Incorporated
http://www.catnetsolutions.com

[Bob_Sheaves]

2 reasons I thought it was a trackbar bracket issue

1. Seat of the pants experience with the trackbar brackets causing a wierd feeling going down the road. I cant explain why, but changing the parts provided a better feeling steering on the road.

2. Chrome windshield hinges lower the co-efficient of drag therby causing an imbalance of the antenna wind drag ,causing the jeep to pull to the right.:confused:
You are correct, the angles are the root cause of all the other issues.

...although, to be fair, I did forget to ask about the chrome...it usually adds speed to the vehicle. :)

Best regards,

Bob Sheaves
CEO
catNET Incorporated
http://www.catnetsolutions.com

[riverfever]

Been busy keeping kids in line with the school year winding down so I haven't been here in a bit. I did go on a longer drive over the weekend in search of water that wasn't blown out. I was amazed at how much better the Jeep handled. The new bushings did a lot. Also found a bum u joint in the front driveshaft and that made a big difference too.

I know I have the witts to learn more about this stuff but I can't stop fishing long enough. Thanks again for the help. The one cool thing about doing these repairs in steps is that I can see/feel the improvements each one makes. Anxious to see what the new TB and steering stuff does. The tires are simply embarassing and I actually had all chrome stuff before and painted them black and noticed no decrease in performance Bongo.

Did I mention I only have 5.5 days left until schools out? :wings:

[Bongo Boy]

please ask about whatever part of the explanation you fail to understand. I do not read minds.... :)Oh, wow. THAT was some poor wording on my part, to say the least. First, I owe a big apology for the smart-*** tone. Can't come up with a good excuse--thankfully.

I'm not getting the connection btw the symptoms and the track bar function, but let me read again more carefully.

Again, my sincerest apology to Bob and everyone on this forum for my Childish Moment.

[OverlandZJ]

Oh, wow. THAT was some poor wording on my part


Not to worry...wish I had a dollar for everytime I used poor wording! :shakin:

[XXXpedition]

check the track bar relocation bracket. maybe it'sa bit loose.
or even the hole for the bolt is not 100% right. if it's a hair too big, it will handle like you mentioned. mine did the same thing and it was always that problem.

[Bob_Sheaves]

Oh, wow. THAT was some poor wording on my part, to say the least. First, I owe a big apology for the smart-*** tone. Can't come up with a good excuse--thankfully.

I'm not getting the connection btw the symptoms and the track bar function, but let me read again more carefully.

Again, my sincerest apology to Bob and everyone on this forum for my Childish Moment.
No offence taken. We ALL have bad days, some more than others.... :)

Seriously though, my point still stands-if I am not clear in my explanations, PLEASE ask. I will clear up the confusion as best I can.

Best regards,

Bob Sheaves
CEO
catNET Incorporated
http://www.catnetsolutions.com/