gxv vs earthroamer

[GR8ADV]

Anybody done a comparison between the GXV uxv and the earthroamer with respect to, well, everything including price?

[18seeds]

With an investment as large as an ER or GXV I would side with GXV soley on the history of the company. I think both make great products but ER already has a damanged report card. From my POV GXV has weathered the so called "bad economy" better.

[trailsurfer]

With an investment as large as an ER or GXV I would side with GXV soley on the history of the company. I think both make great products but ER already has a damanged report card. From my POV GXV has weathered the so called "bad economy" better.

Having just made the choice of an ER over a GXV, I obviously wouldn't agree with your statement. Both GXV and ER build fantastic vehicles and stand behind their products. ER has come out of the bad economy a better and stronger company at great cost and sacrifice by Bill and his team.

If I wanted a "full" size Overland vehicle, I wouldn't hesitate to go with GXV. But for the F-550 vehicles, I just like the build and "style" better of the ER.

It is fantastic that we have 2 great companies and vehicles to debate about!

[dzzz]

Assuming a proper structure the probability of significant problems is really in the cab/chassis anyways. If either company disappeared a year or two after purchase it wouldn't be a disaster for the buyer. The base truck is warrantied and the camper parts are fixable by many other sources.
From what we've seen so far the initial large depreciation is the "risk"; The buyer had better be sure he will use the vehicle or faces a huge financial penalty for changing his mind.
My perception is ER is a more refined, focused product, with GVX doing more variety and customization. I expect most buyers don't have too much trouble deciding between companies. Hopefully there's enough business for two healthy companies.
Neither company has a proper "world truck" to build on. Fortunently North America is a big place.

[GR8ADV]

I expect most buyers don't have too much trouble deciding between companies.

I guess I will do some more research. You are correct that it really comes down to the box and the workmanship, as the 'truck' is the same. Thanks for your thoughts.

[michaelvanpelt]

Neither company has a proper "world truck" to build on. Fortunently North America is a big place.

All are good posts but I want to share my opinion that the best chassis for global travel is a Mercedes, and we offer 2 models in the U500 Unimog "Safari" and the 1017A "Global Traveler" The 1017 is also known as the Atega.
I believe the Mercedes is "THE World Truck"
It really is a phenomenal platform or chassis.
The serviceability of Mercedes is second to none. Mercedes dealerships are found in even the smallest towns all over the globe and the service technicians are trained on the latest Mercedes systems globally. And Mercedes trucks seem to use basically the same components as far as I can tell on the Unimogs, Actros, and Atega models, and these are in use all across the globe. I don't think it gets any better than that.

[GR8ADV]

I was assuming that by DZZZ saying that niether "have" a world truck to work with he was referencing the Ford f550's in question not in what the company has to work with. But I could be wrong.

[Carl]

You bring up a very good point. It would be great to see a "side by side" comparison of these vehicles.
At least all of the specs, systems, capacities, etc...

[charlieaarons]

I agree a Mercedes is a "world truck". I have had
no problems finding dealers (Mercedes,Fuso,Freightliner)
that can work on the U500 in Australia. But parts can take
up to 2 wks i.e. air tank pressure senders since they
aren't stocked in country (from Germany). Fortunately thetruck
works with bad readings.
Thebig problem is finding a good Mercedes truck (U500 or
other) in the US!!!!

Charlie

[EMrider]

Anyone in the market for a large and off-road capable expedition vehicle is almost certain to take a serious look at both ER and GXV's vehicles.

I'm very glad to see at least two companies serving this market.

At some point in the future, I'll very likely buy something like the ER or the GXV on the f-550 platform. Right now, the SMB does a great job. But when the kids are grown and it is time for my wife and I to spend some serious time on the road, the SMB ain't gonna cut it. I could be comfy with a sleeping bag, a bivy and a shovel for toilet duty. My wife demands a bit more in the comfort area and that is where these vehicles really shine. They can get you there and back, with nearly all the comforts of home.
R

[dzzz]

I should have said we (North Americans) don't have a good new world truck, with the exception of the Fuso FG on the light end.
As Michael knows there's about 150 U500NA in North America. The latest being 2006 I believe. But I guess if someone wants one they can find one to buy with some effort, so that does count as available.
I just got back a half hour ago loading my U500 for shipment to the west coast. Every time I see it I'm impressed. But in some ways for North America I would prefer a F550. The U500 attracts a lot of attention.
One of several factors that drove me from the F550 to the U500 was the Navistar engine. The new engine and transmission are a big improvement. When I went into a commercial Ford dealer in 2009 the salesman told me not to buy the truck (diesel). That's really a low point for Ford.
I would have no hesitation buying the new F550 except for world travel.

[EMrider]

I should have said we (North Americans) don't have a good new world truck, with the exception of the Fuso FG on the light end.
As Michael knows there's about 150 U500NA in North America. The latest being 2006 I believe. But I guess if someone wants one they can find one to buy with some effort, so that does count as available.
I just got back a half hour ago loading my U500 for shipment to the west coast. Every time I see it I'm impressed. But in some ways for North America I would prefer a F550. The U500 attracts a lot of attention.
One of several factors that drove me from the F550 to the U500 was the Navistar engine. The new engine and transmission are a big improvement. When I went into a commercial Ford dealer in 2009 the salesman told me not to buy the truck (diesel). That's really a low point for Ford.
I would have no hesitation buying the new F550 except for world travel.

My interest in the f550 has a lot to do with Ford's new 6.7psd motor. The initial reports and owner reviews has been quite good. I hope that Ford really did nail it with this motor. By the time I'm in the market, the 6.7psd will be a very well calibrated variable.

R

[Cat Jockey]

Neither company has a proper "world truck" to build on.

I don't know if I agree with that at all in 2011. This is a map of only their manufacturing plants worldwide:
http://corporate.ford.com/about-ford/global-operations

They are manufacturing Fords on all of the 6 available continents. That is just manufacturing facilities, not parts and service stations. I tend to think that I could get Ford parts sent to 99% of places where Mercedes ships to. Satellite internet is global as well. If you have internet service, you have access to a factory trained mechanic. Sitting at is home in the middle of Iowa. Drinking a beer. Walking me, step, by step, through a diagnosis and repair procedure. On a forum about Ford trucks or Ford diesels, like Expo.

While Mercedes is certainly better established, I believe that with the internet, better global shiping and a world that grows smaller every day, I can get Ford parts pretty much anywhere I could get Mercedes parts and also with the Net, I have access to Ford factory trained mechanics, willing to help me for free.

The internet is pervasive and powerful. It makes Ford platforms a more usable world wide expo platform. Doesn't hurt that in the last couple decades Ford has done a good job establishing a global footprint and presence.

Maybe I am a fool (wouldn't be the first time), but I wouldn't hesitate to take a Ford F Series or E Series (Class 3 and above) on any continent (excluding Antartica) for fear of being unable to obtain parts or service knowledge. And I would definitely take a Ford worldwide before a Chevy or Dodge. But, I am a bit biased as I have a Class 3 E-350 Cutaway chassis I am going to start on in about 6 months. I have given this quite a bit of thought, and again, ignorance is bliss and perhaps I am a fool, but I am going to scrap the 460 and convert to diesel, using the diesel powerplant that works best for my needs, be it the new Ford, an International, Cummins, etc. - any popular US engine (the might be a fool part with any popular US engine), I can get parts for worldwide, as well as worldwide service help from a factory trained mechanic via net.

Not trying to be offensive, so feel free to point out any flaws in my thinking.

[charlieaarons]

Last week an air pressure sensor stopped working in my Mercedes.
BTW it works now.
I found a Fuso/Mercedes dealer 10km from where the vehicle was
stored. There are dozens of dealers that service Mercs just
in Queensland. In 8000km I haven't seen a single Ford dealer.
Are you really going to take a non stock homemade truck
overseas?

Charlie

[dzzz]

ER had a F550 with an engine problem break down in Russia that the owners eventually left and came home.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
The Ford diesel is not a "world" engine like Mercedes or Fuso. It's made for the North America market. I believe the truck that broke had the Navistar diesel, but it doesn't seem to be one that was used outside North America.

Mercedes expects to help their truck owners anywhere in the world. Ford will wonder what the heck your doing in Oz with an F550. How are you going to run full engine diagnostics in Oz? Clearly a mechanic trained on the engine and tranny can fix the truck with the right tools by ordering parts air freight. But it's the "trained mechanic with tools" part that's the problem.

Realistically any truck could have a breakdown in a place where repair is difficult. These types of trips have to be viewed as an adventure. People who need to keep to a schedule should probably take a cruise.
But then there's the low sulfur diesel issue.......

[cwsqbm]

Last week an air pressure sensor stopped working in my Mercedes.
BTW it works now.
I found a Fuso/Mercedes dealer 10km from where the vehicle was
stored. There are dozens of dealers that service Mercs just
in Queensland. In 8000km I haven't seen a single Ford dealer.
Are you really going to take a non stock homemade truck
overseas?

Charlie

While the F550 may not be a Ford AZ product, there are 56 Ford dealers in Queensland alone according to the Ford Australia website.

[howell_jd]

ER had a F550 with an engine problem break down in Russia that the owners eventually left and came home.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
The Ford diesel is not a "world" engine like Mercedes or Fuso. It's made for the North America market. I believe the truck that broke had the Navistar diesel, but it doesn't seem to be one that was used outside North America.

Mercedes expects to help their truck owners anywhere in the world. Ford will wonder what the heck your doing in Oz with an F550. How are you going to run full engine diagnostics in Oz? Clearly a mechanic trained on the engine and tranny can fix the truck with the right tools by ordering parts air freight. But it's the "trained mechanic with tools" part that's the problem.

Realistically any truck could have a breakdown in a place where repair is difficult. These types of trips have to be viewed as an adventure. People who need to keep to a schedule should probably take a cruise.
But then there's the low sulfur diesel issue.......

...The "Around the World" (ATW) ER was still under warranty when it was driven through some austere locations - many of which were quite some distance from Ford dealers. Despite that condition, Ford was able to provide support - albeit with significant delays one might expect from such remote locations - and get the ATW ER back under way (to say "on the road" isn't exactly appropriate as there were cases where there was no road).

One of the significant break downs involved the high pressure oil pump (HPOP) which had a rupture of a line at the so-called STC (snap to connect) fitting - this flawed design was corrected by Ford during the span of multiple recalls affecting the 6.0L Powerstroke diesel (built by Navistar as the VT365 - which ironically did not suffer the frequency of failures that the Ford version did). The HPOP drives the fuel injectors to open and close unlike the 6.4L and other high pressure fuel "common-rail" engines. Today, an HPOP failure in a 6.0L doesn't create the confusion that it did in 2007 nor do myriad other issues involving fuel cleanliness (ULSD vs Low-sulfur diesel), proper oil filters and oil exchange intervals, etc., etc.,...

...In any case, the delay(s) in the journey of the ATW ER were expected based on the condition of the expedition (granted there were a few extended delays) and it was performed over a course of several years (May 2006 - Oct 2008) as well - while not necessarily planned, they were "built in" and certainly added flavor - you might say - to the pot.

My OASIS report (a Ford document used to record the servicing of recall and warranty work) has a few very "interesting" entries regarding the work on the ATW ER in Europe and Asia but no questions regarding "why" it wasn't in North America...no electronics failed as I recall but the failed parts weren't repairable - they had to be replaced.

Investment in a set of gauges and additional fluid filtration were among my early "modifications" to the truck. I believe an AutoEnginuity tool will be a special present I make to myself shortly to facilitate any future diagnosis and testing my truck will require (not quite as full-featured as Ford's Worldwide Diagnostic Tool or Integrated Diagnostic Software).

I think "every" vehicle has it's personality disorder(s). As an Engineer Officer, my Mercedes-built SEE trucks (Small Emplacement Excavator...technically known as the FLU-419) were subject to frequent breakage (it was a popular vehicle to the Infantryman looking for a crew-served weapon position) and there were significant delays associated with maintaining its operation (no fault to Mercedes perhaps...we worked those trucks HARD - just an observation of one of many "world" trucks).

Ultimately, deep pockets always facilitates remotely-located repairs. Sufficient supply of frequently broken items carried on-board also reduces time of delay during a trip - but this adds to the ceaselessly amended list of items to carry. I think a familiarity with the vehicle, careful planning and preparation, and an emergency fund (of both patience and CA$H) are beneficial elements for those who would embark upon a journey over "the road less travelled."

Jonathan

[Cat Jockey]

Last week an air pressure sensor stopped working in my Mercedes.
BTW it works now.
I found a Fuso/Mercedes dealer 10km from where the vehicle was
stored. There are dozens of dealers that service Mercs just
in Queensland. In 8000km I haven't seen a single Ford dealer.


Not to hijack the thread, but the subject pertains to a decision for or against an Earthroamer or GXV based upon its platform.

You had to go 10 Km to find a Fuso/Merceds dealer to get a Mercedes air pressure sensor. That is 10Km further than you needed to go to get a Ford or International or Cummins air pressure sensor. Or Mercedes. You can get all of that stuff sitting in your pajamas in your house. Or in my house in Colorado. Or in Sub Saharan Africa, providing you have an internet connection.

Please, do not think I am in any way being insulting as we are all different and have different mindsets, but I personally would have tried to diagnosis the air pressure sensor myself. And if there were gaps in my knowledge and I was having problems in the diagnosis, I have the internet. INFORMATION at my finger tips. Don't discount that or the fact that you, instead of seeking out a a dealership 10 Km away, could have diagnosed your bad air pressure sensor yourself, with the help of the internet. And, quite frankly, I bet I can get in touch with a factory trained mechanic hanging out on a site like this faster than a Mitsi Fuso trained one.

(EDIT):
Maybe you did diagnosis it and were just referring to the ability to get parts quickly, off the shelf, instead of having them shipped, in which case you have a point. But, if I am overlanding and after 3 years of overlanding, I lose a sensor and have to have it shipped, oh well. I have to stay put for a few days, maybe, instead of being back on the road immediately. I'll take that.

Considering the price of a Unimog, that is a real, real, real expensive option. Suppose over the course of 3 years I am held up for a total 2 weeks waiting for parts to be shipped whereas with a Mercedes, I would have been able to avoid that downtime. How much does a brand new Unimog cost? How about a F550 chasis. Probably a $20,000 - $30,000 difference. That's $2000/day, at least, you would pay with a Unimog. If I am out traveling the world, I am not willing to pay $2000 to avoid being stranded for one day. I'll keep the $2000, enjoy my foreign surroundings and make camp. Just like I was planning to do - travel and hang out for days on end in certain spots. If a couple of those spots I hang out for a few days I don't get to choose, oh well.

My 28 y.o. 4x4 E350 Class 3 chassis, complete with ambulance body, I got for a p/u worth about $3500. A 28 y.o. Unimog chassis, with alot of miles is going to run me $35,000.

On top of that, something tells me that in 5 years, you will not have to drive 8000 Km. Maybe it will only be 4000 Km in 5 years. The world continues to shrink and Ford continues to establish itself globally. My rig won't hit South America for another 3 years. Any big jump across the pond would be 5 - 10 years out. How much more will Ford's global reach increase in the next 10 years?


Are you really going to take a non stock homemade truck
overseas?

I wouldn't have it any other way. I understand that automotive companies spend millions on engineering, but that engineering is dominated by a different focus than I have. The best of that engineering, we do not have access to. You do not have access to the engineering in the UNiMogs Mercedes sends to the Paris-Dakkar Rally. Furhter, on huge governing factor on their engineering is not doing things the best possible way, but the way that will just get the job done with the least amount of material and cost.

I don't think anyone should shy away from an EarthRoamer or GXV because of the F550 platform. In fact, at this point, there is a lot of good words about the new Ford Diesel powerplant. Nor should anyone shy away from what I am doing - looking at a 25 year old Class 3 E350 dually chassis and saying, 'Well, it's a start. First, I'll take it all apart, beef up the frame, fit SWR F550 gear (6X6 IF I find competent engineering), and the best powerplant and tranny to suit my needs.

These are not rocket ships and manufacturers engineer to the lower limits for cost effectiveness. There is not a single mass produced chassis anywhere that cannot be improved upon for overlanding by a knucklehead such as myself.

[trailsurfer]

Last week an air pressure sensor stopped working in my Mercedes.
BTW it works now.
I found a Fuso/Mercedes dealer 10km from where the vehicle was
stored. There are dozens of dealers that service Mercs just
in Queensland. In 8000km I haven't seen a single Ford dealer.
Are you really going to take a non stock homemade truck
overseas?

Charlie

Yes, shipping in November.

[GR8ADV]

Not to hijack the thread, but

haha, waaaaay to late :Wow1:

But actually I like this topic, of "What does it mean to be a "world vehicle"." Is it robustness, if so how do these stack up? Is it parts and service? If so then what does that really mean as the world is gettting very very small. And with information technology (internet etc), it may not matter where you are. Is the answer as simple as a diagnostic plug/hammer becomming as important as a 10mm wrench?

That being said, looking over the hi-tec of the 6.7 and the new ford transmission, can just anyone really work on these?

Interesting discussion. thanks

[dzzz]

No, it's not robustness. It's a company supporting trucking worldwide. The expeditioner piggybacks on that infrastructure.

The big light-duty diesel is a North American-only phenomenon, AFAIK.

[Bob599]

I had the chance to speak with the ower of rally management services who specializes in US based Dakar Rally efforts. I asked why he would ship ford f 350s to AFrica rather than just snag a unimog or man truck locally? His answer was a suprise that He felt the f350 a more reliable and in the end more capable chasis. And the price was unbeatable. His team continues to ship these trucks to South America. He did pause to say how cool the Euro trucks were though

[Doin_It]

So you take your non native vehicle somewhere in the world and you break down, you end up doing like they do in several different African countries, where people import the latest greatest vehicle from Europe and have no way to fix it/maintain and keep it running.

The locals and you do the best to figure out whats going on. You talk to a mechanic in Europe, he figures what parts he should need, and when there are 2,3 4 or so vehicles not working he brings all the parts he needs and flys down and gets you all going and you all share in his costs/charges. Everyone is happy and away you all drive. Or you just bring him in and have it done for your truck and keep going.

[dzzz]

So you take your non native vehicle somewhere in the world and you break down, you end up doing like they do in several different African countries, where people import the latest greatest vehicle from Europe and have no way to fix it/maintain and keep it running.

The locals and you do the best to figure out whats going on. You talk to a mechanic in Europe, he figures what parts he should need, and when there are 2,3 4 or so vehicles not working he brings all the parts he needs and flys down and gets you all going and you all share in his costs/charges. Everyone is happy and away you all drive. Or you just bring him in and have it done for your truck and keep going.

Another option is shipping the badly broken vehicle to a place it can be repaired. The trouble with a Ford is how far it might have to be shipped?

One reason I like a popup camper design is that the vehicle can be shipped on a step deck (in the U.S.). Much over 10' requires more specialized trailers for shipping.

Obviously height restriction vary by country. Perhaps there's a standard in the EU. In less developed countries there are practical height restrictions.

A new vehicle (unless the engine is made by Navistar) is likely highly reliable. I read a blog of a guy who drove an older unimog to Alaska. He broke down 11 times. But hey! No computer! Sometimes the purist vehicles argument ignores the fact that most newer vehicles are much more reliable than older vehicles.
Go to Africa in a 20 year old vehicle and the vehicle will break down. Those people come back and are so proud of of having a vehicle without a computer.

Anyway, I'm a ford guy in the U.S., but I just wasn't comfortable with the pickup for international travel. I wouldn't do it in an antique big truck either. Give me a current Daimler commercial truck or a Toyota if going small.


I had the chance to speak with the ower of rally management services who specializes in US based Dakar Rally efforts. I asked why he would ship ford f 350s to AFrica rather than just snag a unimog or man truck locally? His answer was a suprise that He felt the f350 a more reliable and in the end more capable chasis. And the price was unbeatable. His team continues to ship these trucks to South America. He did pause to say how cool the Euro trucks were though

I expect Ford was a sponsor, other wise Toyota could have filled the roll with local support.
The trouble with "Euro Truck" is that it lumps old and new, obscure and common together. The African support for "Euro Truck" varies from zero to great.

[charlieaarons]

A big factor in one's ability to fix things in computerized trucks is having a diagnostic computer in the vehicle (example: Mercedes Star Diagnostic System). Also a set of engine sensors and a spare ECU.
I found a Star system on Ebay for ~$1200 in 2007. They are also available at
www.greebid.com
along with other vehicles' diagnostic systems.

Charlie

[Kardec]

As the owner of ER #1 and now #73 I have a couple of thoughts to add. I think that the U500 is a fantastic vehicle in every way. I drove one at the Portland Freightliner facility back when they were brand new to the US ... about the time when there were those silly ads suggesting that it was just sort of a bigger SUV that caused such a flap with environmentalists. As if suburban moms would ever buy a truck where you had to climb a ladder to the cab!

That, however, was/is one of the issues with all these vehicles. Height. And when you are on a slanted trail height becomes width. I love my Earthroamer but for getting into the back country the best vehicle is the smallest one you can stand. Light weight is good too. The initial concept for the Earthroamer, back when I first started talking with Bill about the truck he was going to build, was a bit smaller. His partner at the time, however, told us that we were probably the only single guys who would ever buy an ER ... the company had to appeal to the WAF (Wife Approval Factor) in order to get the customer to actually be willing to open their wallet as wide as necessary in order to buy one. I do not know that this was ultimately part of the official design criteria at ER but we did discuss it. They were and continue to be very successful in their design and are still responding to a lot of feedback from their customers.

When I drove the U500 I realized that the height of the thing was really the issue ... aside from this "world" business. I'm guessing they are great for North Africa, Australia, wide open places like that. An Earthroamer is as big a vehicle as I would want for getting into the mountains and forests of much of North America and, of course, in Europe either could get pretty crazy in some towns where width is an issue. My biggest problems have been branches, edging around rocks, and weight. Loading and unloading a very high vehicle can be trouble. I occasionally pack a lot of sound recording equipment and I know that getting all that in and out of a Unimog would be problematic and very slow ... and I'm 6'4". I believe that I was the one who insisted that the ER be tall enough inside for me to stand in my hiking boots!

In a completely different way the Earthroamer is "high profile" enough. It is so unique looking and attracts so much attention that I really would never want anything more and often wish I had something that looked less imposing. A couple of times I've been confronted by ER fans who got a bit belligerent, "I can't afford this ... What are you, some kind of big shot?" When that comes out of a person's mouth 3 minutes after I first met them my trouble sensor goes off big time. What I did to afford an ER is none of their business and I have no wife or kids to support. For awhile I handed out cards from a friend of mine who hired civilian contractors for jobs in Iraq ... that tended to shut up the jealous onlookers fairly fast. Now there's enough ERs out there, and mine is no longer one of the newer ones, so it's not so much of a problem. With a U500 I can't even imagine the reaction! Possibly better in a third world country where anyone with a new vehicle is sort of in the same boat ... no matter what the vehicle is.

I get a lot of people saying, "Wow, I'll bet that can go anywhere." ERs, especially the ones with the Continental Military Tire conversion, are pretty damn good off road. Good for a 25 foot long, 11 foot high, 7 foot wide 15,000 pound truck that costs as much as a house. They do not compare to a $1,500 Jeep CJ. How far into the back country you go has a lot to do with how much you are willing to damage your vehicle. With an ER, eighty percent of what holds you back off road is how much the thing costs. I'm in the "can barely afford it" category, so others may push their ER harder than I push mine. Size and weight really do hold you back in many circumstances ... stuck is BAD news in something this size. Stuck would be worse in a Unimog. Are they harder to get stuck? Undoubtedly. But stuck is not always a factor of bogged down or something of the sort.

On the "World Truck" issue I'm divided between two theories. Personally, I'll never take my ER out of North America. I'm happier traveling somewhere and then using whatever I can get locally, however, I see a divide between, very computerized, vehicle which probably requires less work and a simple non electronic machine like a Land Cruiser 78 or an old Defender which might require you or a local mechanic to fool with it ... but can still be repaired with baling wire and duct tape. I drove Land Cruisers and Defenders all over Australia and I love them. Not only are they easy to fix but they have room to work under the hood. Basically, anything over-complicated with a big electrical system and lots of plumbing is going to be a problem on a long hard trip. The Achilles heel of so many of these machines is the plumbing in cold weather and how long it takes to drain them ... you have to plan ahead.

I've lived in my ER for two months straight several times ... however, it gets pretty tight after just three days when I'm traveling with someone else! In general, it's great. I'm happy to have it. I'm glad its as fancy as it is because that's what lets me go two months while working (ie I can't look like a mountain man every day). I wouldn't get one if I had to do it over again because I probably wouldn't let myself spend the money ... but I'm very happy I did spend it when I did.

If I was driving around the world, through different countries, I'd probably build up the most reliable, least computerized vehicle I could get my head around. I'd try to not let it get bigger than a normal pick up. I'd try to stay under 10,000 pounds. I'd make it look MODEST, no matter how much money was actually spent on it. And I'd keep it simple, Simple, SIMPLE. One thing I have learned from traveling in places where a breakdown can kill you (Australia being one of them) is that no one uses heavily modified vehicles ... or particularly exotic vehicles. I'm guessing that has to do with reliability and ease of repair in small towns. I think that if you drive a big exotic expedition vehicle like an ER or a Uni into remote places that are far, far, from home you need to be someone who can afford to leave it if it breaks ... accepting that it may be a pilfered shell when you return. Hopefully, that won't happen but you need to accept that it might and plan accordingly.

With the plethora of vehicles around and 'just in time' inventories you are likely to have to wait for parts anywhere and everywhere. The constant revising of designs, especially with American vehicles (though Mercedes isn't as conservative and stable as they used to be), just makes things worse. I guess that's one of the reasons why you see LC 60 and 70 series, Defenders and Fusos in so many places around the world.

[OVRLND]

Kardec,

First, welcome to ExPo.
Second, thank you for for your personal and informative post.

[charlieaarons]

Welcome to Expo.
It occurs to me that with its' guaranteed parts/service (depending on whether the engine needs work or some exotic part like the transmission or portal boxes) at Freightliner and Detroit Diesel in North America, the U500 is the ONLY true "world vehicle" of the 4WD truck type. Other makes and other Mercedes models either don't have support in NA and/or have variable support in various other countries (MAN, Iveco, etc.). Yes, parts are available for 70 series LCs in NA, but not at very many places. although they are easier to work on than a U500!.

Charlie

[Kardec]

This is a great forum, I've been checking into it for years without posting. I actually find myself much more concerned with the American market's tendency to destroy good 4x4 design than worrying about what vehicle is best absolutely everywhere. Market forces in the United States tend to cause nearly all manufacturers to chase the housewife demographic rather than creating the specialty vehicles needed for good overland travel in serious terrain. Simple vehicles with a minimum of dead reliable systems are extremely hard to find ... no news for anyone on this site. My cousin is a minor exec at VW in Europe and when we get together he's a font of information about what is going on in the auto biz. We always spend some time bemoaning the fact that the world needs the modern equivalent of the old VW van/pick up. Something cheap, well built, easy to fix, will run on cruddy fuel, get good gas mileage, can carry a lot of people or junk without being too large, can take a hell of a beating and be a stable enough design to make parts supply easy and common. I don't need one ... I imagine no one here really needs one ... but the rest of the world does. I wonder what will be coming out of India or China in the next few years.

I've heard stories from other ER owners of traveling various places around the world. It seems like it's not a big deal if you're well maintained and trouble shot before leaving the US. I'm not sure how far anyone pushes the capabilities of the vehicle (any vehicle) on international trips anyway ... it seems like the perfect way to spend your free time broken down in a spot that might be interesting for a day or two but isn't the place you'd really like to be for two weeks waiting for parts or repairs. I blew a turbo connection early on in the first ER rally and ended up sitting in Page, AZ for days after everyone else had gone home waiting for Ford to get a replacement to me ("just in time" inventory!). I had plenty of opportunity to imagine the same situation taking place in Honduras or Mexico. My dad always said, "Adventure" is a Romantic Word for Trouble. Page wasn't all that romantic ... but, thank god, it wasn't as much trouble as Honduras would have been! I think of some of the places I've been broken down and shudder ... just glad I didn't have an ER full of stuff to worry about.

[dzzz]

........ Height. And when you are on a slanted trail height becomes width. ..................

The U500 is about 10' tall. What's the ER? While GVX doesn't build a pop-up, AFAIK, unicat does. With the cab over, versus the engine forward design of the F550, it's easy to do a long cabin on the U500.

I agree about height being an issue. Some of these big truck campers go over 13' with the AC. I'm nervous about branches at 10'. I don't know how people explore remote roads in a 13' tall vehicle. I expect there's a pole saw and prayer involved.

Of course both the U500 and F550 are more limited off road than a jeep or toyota.

IMO the U500 is inherently more space efficient than an american pickup based vehicle. The advantage of an F550 is the second row of seats.

The idea of people being more offended or impressed or whatever by a U500 versus an F550 based vehicle seems a bit strange to me. Most people don't notice and don't care. People interested in 4x4 smile and enjoy seeing an unusual vehicle. No big deal.

[charlieaarons]

The idea of people being more offended or impressed or whatever by a U500 versus an F550 based vehicle seems a bit strange to me. Most people don't notice and don't care. People interested in 4x4 smile and enjoy seeing an unusual vehicle. No big deal.

I agree.
I made a comment about a year ago that whether it's a $10K Landcruiser, a $200K ER or a $400K Unicat, all are overwhelming to "the kid playing in the dump in the 3rd World country"

Charlie

[Kardec]

While I didn't compare the two ... the first ER build was still in the future ... the "bed rail" height of the U500 seemed very high. I believe it is higher than the F550 though it doesn't matter to me, I have no Unimog vs F550 feelings whatsoever. The higher bed rail means a higher camper box, thus a higher everything. Certainly a pop up can work. I didn't really want one in that sort of a vehicle though I'd recommend a pop up slide-in as a serious way to go for many people and might have done just that if I hadn't known Bill and started discussing what eventually became the Earthroamer with him.

I have long considered getting a pole saw and occasionally day dreamed about a back up camera on top ... looking forward! If real, hard core 4x4 back country work was my main thing I'd probably just have an old LC 60 and live in a tent, I had one in the 1980s and loved it.

I don't know about the space efficiency aspects. Theoretically, I like the cab-over design of the U500 or a Fuso but try to put an over head bunk on a U500 and you end up with a small office building. That big bunk is one of the great things about the ER ... it's REALLY big and it's out of the way. Old long haul truckers never seemed to like the ride of cab-overs, possibly that is why they have been disappearing. They must be great off road though, incredible view! We used a lot of Fusos when I worked in Australia. I didn't find them very comfortable because of my long legs. They have some really small cab-over style trucks down there. The size of the smaller Toyota or Nissan pick ups. I forget who made them but they might have been older too. For a country with not a lot of different car models and virtually NO older cars on the road, there were a lot of interesting things to see down under, vehicle-wise.

I find the U500 seriously more exotic than the ER but that may just be me. Many people are really happy to see my vehicle and I always try to tell them as much about it as they want to know. Possibly I ran into the very few who would be offended by my ER but absolutely EVERYONE I run into asks how much it cost ... a question I certainly wouldn't ask of anyone under similar circumstances. So far, all the offended ones seem to already know how much it costs ... one of them pulled up with his family of five in a very tricked out F350 pulling a trailer with a boat and also two jet skis in an overhead rack. He was very aggressive and strange but to me it looked like HE had an expensive lifestyle! HUMANS! They're all crazy. Obviously, thousands of people drive past me every year without noticing or caring what I drive but it's the ones who start getting scary that I remember.

Other ER drivers have all been amazing. When we accidentally run into one and other on the road, there's an instant camaraderie. I followed an ER off I40 into a rest stop last year and the guy jumped out of his cab and I jumped out of mine and we embraced each other like long lost brothers even before we knew each other's names. His wife was into how I packed my fridge and I learned a bit about tuning chips. We only talked for 10 minutes before we were back on the road and soon headed in opposite directions. I'm sure people who own those old Vixen motorhomes are the same way.

[dzzz]

............. Many people are really happy to see my vehicle and I always try to tell them as much about it as they want to know. Possibly I ran into the very few who would be offended by my ER but absolutely EVERYONE I run into asks how much it cost ... a question I certainly wouldn't ask of anyone under similar circumstances. So far, all the offended ones seem to already know how much it costs ... one of them pulled up with his family of five in a very tricked out F350 pulling a trailer with a boat and also two jet skis in an overhead rack. He was very aggressive and strange but to me it looked like HE had an expensive lifestyle! HUMANS! They're all crazy. Obviously, thousands of people drive past me every year without noticing or caring what I drive but it's the ones who start getting scary that I remember.
.............

I wonder if the big ER graphics on some of their vehicles makes a difference in how (crazy) people respond. With my strange U500 camper people just generally seem confused about what they're looking at. And Unicats occasionally get confused with refuse trucks. While perhaps a bit humiliating, not necessarily a bad thing :)

[michaelvanpelt]

In my experience....and for what its worth...(it's free), the Mercedes trucks including Unimog's are used in most, if not all ground based military units in the world. As a result the parts are already in most parts of the world. The problem is that electronic parts can't normally clear customs. Sometime its the oddest things that give a problem to customs and automotive parts are one of them for whatever reason. If the part is an electronic part FORGET it. If its a part that's already been approved and cleared it's a snap, any dealer can get the part in but if it's not a part used and previously cleared into the country it can get tough. That’s part of the value of the Mercedes brand in my thinking.


As far as the Ford versus Mercedes my thoughts go back to the earlier comment about how high the vehicle is. Equipped with the MPT 81 tires the Ford is pushing 11 feet. GXV Unimog based bodies are normally just over 12 feet with a six-foot seven interior height. I think most Unicat's are about the same. For my money, a foot difference in overall height is not even a consideration. The Unimog can take a side hill or an approach that a Ford could not even consider.

Now don't get me wrong the new Fords are much better than last year's however, there is a reason that new Unimog chassis can cost almost 4 times what a new Ford F550 will cost. From the 33,000 GVW to the 22" in ground clearance not to mention the worldwide serviceability and 1,000,000 mile possibility plus everything else I can think of....there is really just no comparison. If I was only staying domestic, the Ford is fine and makes a good camper. However if crossing the border's are in your sights then I go back to "there is no comparison". A Mercedes-Benz, MAN, DAF, or any number of globally used chassis made a far better choice in a true Expedition Vehicle.

I'm sure there are people out there that have a different opinion, and this is only my opinion. However if I was going to make an investment based on opinions then I would want to see the passports of the people making the opinions.

[camperman]

This is the correct thinking, Mike. Unimog for truly off-road, Ford for bad roads

[adam88]

Assuming a proper structure the probability of significant problems is really in the cab/chassis anyways. If either company disappeared a year or two after purchase it wouldn't be a disaster for the buyer. The base truck is warrantied and the camper parts are fixable by many other sources.
From what we've seen so far the initial large depreciation is the "risk"; The buyer had better be sure he will use the vehicle or faces a huge financial penalty for changing his mind.
My perception is ER is a more refined, focused product, with GVX doing more variety and customization. I expect most buyers don't have too much trouble deciding between companies. Hopefully there's enough business for two healthy companies.
Neither company has a proper "world truck" to build on. Fortunently North America is a big place.

I think it has to do less with warranty, and more with resale value. If a manufacturer disappears, your resale value goes way down, because information/recognition of that brand quickly goes down the toilet. If earthroamer had not come back from bankruptcy, the brand would barely be known and old earthroamer units would be worth less (no "Certified by Earthroamer" programs, and no "Upgraded MPT81 suspension kits", etc.). No one wants an obsolete platform, people want to be part of a community, they want a place where they can get upgrades, maintenance, new ideas and network with future users. Here's a great example... Hummer H1 was discontinued in 2006. Since then, the hummer network has significantly dropped, just from 5 years of no new hummers. No one talks about hummers anymore, and there's less of them on the road.

[dzzz]

I think it has to do less with warranty, and more with resale value. .............

It's hard to guess at resale a couple years in the future. Both the ER and GXV seem solid, but if we're being very conservative we would buy a Unicat I guess.

I don't know anything about International. I'm curious how that stacks up as a "world truck". Are the campers built by GXV on International headed outside the U.S.? That seems to be a great rig even if it just stays in North America, but I'm curious where the owners intend to travel.

[camperman]

Yup, truck brand named International doesn't have international service. It's just a brand name. Funny :hehe:

[charlieaarons]

Maybe if/when Freightliner replaces its' lines with the Atego, Axor and Actros we'll have real "world trucks". Of course thoroughly electronic. And we'll be lucky to get all the options like 4X4/6X6.

Charlie

[Bill Beers]

Maybe if/when Freightliner replaces its' lines with the Atego, Axor and Actros we'll have real "world trucks". Of course thoroughly electronic. And we'll be lucky to get all the options like 4X4/6X6.

Charlie

I don't see that happening ever. The have some common engines now, and more later, but the US is a conventional cab market, and the rest of the world is cabover. I think they'll stick to what sells in the US.

[charlieaarons]

I don't see that happening ever. The have some common engines now, and more later, but the US is a conventional cab market, and the rest of the world is cabover. I think they'll stick to what sells in the US.

I heard what could only be qualified as a well sourced rumor to that effect from a Freightliner representative relatively high up who shall remain un-named. About a year ago.

Charlie

[cwsqbm]

I don't see that happening ever. The have some common engines now, and more later, but the US is a conventional cab market, and the rest of the world is cabover. I think they'll stick to what sells in the US.

We don't have the same length restrictions on trucks, so for tractor-trailers there's little need for a short tractor when hauling a 53' trailer.

I could see the straight trucks coming here, since there is a length limit on them, both legally and practically. The other US truck manufacturers sell cabover straight trucks, so its a hole in Freightliner's product line. Those are what interest us here anyways - I'd love a Atego, with its 13,500 kg GVW and factory optional single rear tires in 365/80-20 size.

[Bill Beers]

...The other US truck manufacturers sell cabover straight trucks, so its a hole in Freightliner's product line. Those are what interest us here anyways - I'd love a Atego, with its 13,500 kg GVW and factory optional single rear tires in 365/80-20 size...

Noted. Which US truck makers have cabovers right now? Freightliner sells the Argosy, but it's export only, unless you're ordering a glider. Peterbilt has the 210/220/320, and Mack has the Terrapro. I couldn't find any for Navistar, Volvo, Ford, GM, or Kenworth. I'd say there are not may out there.


Hino has the 155/195, Isuzu's N-series, and the Fuso Canter are all available here. Having Fuso under the Daimler umbrella is probably one reason Freightliner doesn't have a small cabover. You're right though, Freightliner/Daimler doesn't seem to have a medium-duty cabover in its stable.