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crawler#976
05-16-2007, 02:07 PM
I've watched the decline in our local river, the Dirty Verde, for the last number of years. The artical below says we've been in a drought for 12 years - it's been longer than that here from my perspective. It's closer to 16 years since we have had a normal winter's rain and snowpack in the Prescott area.

I live in the Chino Valley basin, and have had the opportunity to meet many old timers in the area. Ranchers, farmer and one gentleman who's a fifth generation resident, and who retired as a maintinace man on pumping stations in the area for over 40 years. Charlie keep track of well head depth thruout the basin, and has told me about how fast they dropped in the last years of his career. Commerical wells put in in the 70's were only 300 feet deep, and had a head level near the surface. Current commercial wells are now drilled to the 600 foot level, and have a head nearly 200 feet down. The basin used to have numerous artisian springs and seeps, they've vanished years ago. The early settlers reported grass growing belly high on a horse, and the use of corduroy roads was required. Today, the Chino basin is a barren, dusty wasteland where the dustdevils can reach a 1000' in height...

The City of Prescott now pumps up to 13,000,000 gallons a day off the Big Chino...and has another golf course based community in the planning stages.

Anyway, I found this artical to be interesting, and again the legislature can only think about development vs. conservation.

source: http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/0516rivers-groundwater0516.html#


Report: Legislature leaves rivers dry
Shaun McKinnon
The Arizona Republic
May. 16, 2007 12:00 AM

Arizona's rivers will win no new protections at the Legislature this year, despite continued threats from drought, climate change and laws that promise water for growth without safeguards for natural resources.

One bill heralded this year as relief for the ailing San Pedro River didn't mention the waterway and advanced because the bill would protect an Army base in Sierra Vista. Lawmakers rebuffed pleas by river advocates to include riparian health in other bills.

The result, a Tucson-based conservation group says, are policies tilted toward using up water instead of managing it in a sustainable way. The group, the Sonoran Institute, says the state needs to rewrite some of its basic water laws to include every water user, from people to wildlife to the rivers themselves.

"This is an issue whose time has come, when considering the needs of the environment has to be a part of the equation," said Andy Laurenzi, director of the institute's land and water policy program. "There is an urgency to this. Believe it can be solved in the Legislature, but there are people thinking about whether this needs to go to the voters. You can't wait much longer. These rivers are near irreparable harm."

In a new report, the institute examines three of Arizona's rivers: the San Pedro, the Santa Cruz and the Verde. Each faces serious local threats, but the common enemy, the institute concluded, is unchecked groundwater pumping that robs rivers of water.

Years of overpumping have emptied the Santa Cruz along its final stretches through Pima and Pinal counties. The San Pedro, the state's last free-flowing river, sputters to dust along an increasing number of miles because of growth in Cochise County. The Verde faces threats from thousands of unregulated wells and one big one planned to export water to Prescott and Prescott Valley.

State laws all but ignore the link between groundwater and rivers, allowing the owners of small wells to pump water even if that water would otherwise flow into a nearby stream or river. Although the link wasn't always known, scientists agree now that wells drilled too closely to a river can divert groundwater that would have flowed into the river and, over time, the pumping can begin to tug at water in the river.

Arizona law treats the two sources of water as though they're independent. River users hold rights to specific amounts of water based on when the rights were awarded. Well owners can pump whatever water they can use beneficially, within limits set by a well permit. There are almost no provisions to determine whether a well would draw water that would otherwise flow into a stream or river.

"The fact that we have separate legal systems for groundwater and surface water is the root of the problem," said Kathy Jacobs, a former state regulator who reviewed the Sonoran Institute's work. "If we were able to manage both water rights conjunctively, that would help."

Attempts to change the law almost always run into property rights advocates, who say managing wells like rivers could deprive landowners of a resource and reduce property values. Jacobs, now the executive director of the Arizona Water Institute, said that view shorts the value of the rivers.

"Leaders need to understand the value of a public good," she said. "It's not a lot of water in comparison to the total we're using, and the impacts of saving it are dramatic. We do not have the tools in place to save these rivers, and we don't have a lot of time."

Lawmakers considered several water management bills during this session, based in part on recommendations from a state advisory group.

One proposal attempted to link growth and water in rural Arizona, giving local governments authority to reject development if a builder couldn't provide adequate water. A second measure would create a funding mechanism for new water infrastructure in smaller communities. A third would establish a water management district near the San Pedro River, primarily to protect water sources for new growth.

None of the bills addressed rivers or the potential effect of water pumping on riparian resources, said Sandy Bahr, a lobbyist for the Sierra Club's Grand Canyon Chapter.

"The bill that was supposed to protect the San Pedro didn't mention the river," she said. "There seems to be an irrational aversion to any kind of mention of 'riparian' or 'streamflow,' especially in the context of a bill dealing with groundwater pumping or water supplies. If you're going to use state money to fund infrastructure, it ought to say you can't kill a river in the process."

Sen. Jake Flake, Republican chairman of the Senate Natural Resources Committee, said he prefers a local solution instead of one established by the state. In a hearing on the San Pedro bill, he pointed to Payson, which has enacted some of the toughest water conservation laws in the state.

"Payson has never asked the state for any help," Flake said. "They have done it themselves. Had the state taken over the problem, they'd still be using 200 gallons a day (instead of 86) and the state would have spent hundreds of millions of dollars."

Some lawmakers also resist proposals to set aside water for the environment in the middle of a drought, one now in its 12th year in Arizona. But there may be no better time to resolve the issue, said Jim Holway, associate director of Arizona State University's Global Institute for Sustainability.

"I don't think anyone questions that we have long-term droughts," he said. "We're prone to 20- and 30-year drought cycles. Right now, we can absorb it. The storage of water for the future of agriculture takes the hit, but 30 years from now, it'll be houses that we don't have water for. Maybe we should hit the reset button and revisit our expectations."

If drought forces water users to change the way they manage the resource, to reallocate a shrinking supply, then it's the perfect time to add rivers and riparian values to the discussion, said Holway, a former state water regulator.

Kermit
05-16-2007, 02:46 PM
KUAT had a show about the water issue. A preview of an upcoming Town Hall meeting.
http://kuat.org/details.cfm?ID=555&pl=w

calamaridog
05-16-2007, 02:53 PM
Good article. Water use and availability will continue to be a huge problem in the west.

The link between ground water and rivers and streams should not be ignored.

Neither should the use of water on city, county, and state properties. Local governments should lead the way on water conservation.

When my buddy had small ranch here in San Diego, we had to sink his well another 50 feet the first year after the Indian Reservation opened their golf course. They were drawing water from the same source.

Golf courses are a huge waste of water. They should have to use fake grass.

Ursidae69
05-16-2007, 03:13 PM
Like most of the environemntal problems in the US, they are worse on the global scale. I think one of the world's next big issues will be access to clean fresh water.

The New Yorker has a good article from 2006 (http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2006/10/23/061023fa_fact1).

Data on global water issues (http://www.worldwater.org/index.html).

Scott Brady
05-16-2007, 03:37 PM
From the Specter article in the New Yorker:


There is no standard for how much water a person needs each day, but experts usually put the minimum at fifty litres. The government of India promises (but rarely provides) forty. Most people drink two or three litres—less than it takes to flush a toilet. The rest is typically used for cooking, bathing, and sanitation. Americans consume between four hundred and six hundred litres of water each day, more than any other people on earth.

Pretty sad, our state of affairs...

calamaridog
05-16-2007, 04:17 PM
Like most of the environemntal problems in the US, they are worse on the global scale. I think one of the world's next big issues will be access to clean fresh water.

I agree, but it would be a disservice to billions of people to say this is not a huge issue today already as it was yesterday as well. In other words, a huge percentage of people are already lacking acceptable clean water source, even for personal consumption.


Pretty sad, our state of affairs...

Yes, but a good amount of our water is used for sanitation, which I think we can all agree is a good thing. Many municipalities are on board with using non-potable water for irrigation, etc.

I think the average consumer can dramatically reduce personal use with low flow toilets, shorter showers, turning water off when you don't need it on (say when brushing your teeth), etc. A big one is reducing the use of water on your landscaping (not overwatering) and having the right type of landscaping in the right climate.

I reduced the water use on the landscaping at my old HOA in half by not overwatering and using the right type of sprinkler heads to direct the spray where it is needed. The city even cited people who were watering the sidewalk and having too much runoff.

So I think we are in our infancy as far as water conservation in this country and we can do much more.

calamaridog
05-16-2007, 04:28 PM
The New Yorker article is excellent...

"Despite those accomplishments, nearly half the people in the world don’t have the kind of clean water and sanitation services that were available two thousand years ago to the citizens of ancient Rome. More than a billion people lack access to drinking water, and at least that many have never seen a toilet. Half of the hospital beds on earth are occupied by people with an easily preventable waterborne disease. In the past decade, more children have died from diarrhea than people have been killed in all armed conflicts since the Second World War. Simply providing access to clean water could save two million lives each year."

Scott Brady
05-16-2007, 04:55 PM
I have rocks in my yard, and no real back yard to speak of at all. Just a big view to the San Fransisco Peaks. I think the few plants we have get watered twice a week.

I could improve the shower water usage though (shaving my cranium...):oops:

The BN Guy
05-16-2007, 05:07 PM
I've been wondering about this subject, more specifically Phoenix, for a while. I'd heard they were having a serious water shortage but a boom in construction and growth. Um, something tells me that it's only going to get worse.

We're kind of having a similar, albeit smaller, problem in San Antonio. We've been experiencing significant growth over the last twenty years and everyone knows we will have a water shortage sometime soon. But what happens? More building. And to make things even worse...we're getting a PGA Village. Huge amounts of growth, big golf courses, more housing...and to make it even MORE fun is the fact that it will be sitting directly on our water source, the Edwards Aquifer.

Most of the time around here politics and money override common sense. What a shame we're doing to our environment.

calamaridog
05-16-2007, 05:15 PM
In Las Vegas the new homes are not allowed to have a lawn. Drip system and desert landscaping is cool with me though, since it requires almost no maintenance.

They still permit some golf courses in the developments though. And the parks have lawns, but at least kids can play on those.

Growth is projected to continue out west, so eventually Socal will have to start acting like the desert it is, to free up more water for drinking.

Kermit
05-16-2007, 05:15 PM
Most of the time around here politics and money override common sense.

I don't think that will ever change.

Monkeyboy
05-16-2007, 05:43 PM
Four inches of rain last week, six the week before that, flooding in western Iowa ...

Welcome to Spring in the upper midwest ;) where there's usually plenty of water, it just might be full of nitrates in the Spring and Fall from fertilizer application!

At the same time, it an ongoing battle to get farmers NOT to Fall plow and loose tons of topsoil per acre :confused:

Can't tell you the last time I watered anything in the yard.

KAA

FortyMileDesert
05-16-2007, 06:40 PM
Four inches of rain last week, six the week before that, flooding in western Iowa ...

Welcome to Spring in the upper midwest ;) where there's usually plenty of water, it just might be full of nitrates in the Spring and Fall from fertilizer application!

At the same time, it an ongoing battle to get farmers NOT to Fall plow and loose tons of topsoil per acre :confused:

Can't tell you the last time I watered anything in the yard.

KAA

Must be nice. Here in Fernley, NV we got less than 2 inches this year. Our normal water year is 5 inches.

Of course, Fernley is at the western edge of the Fortymile Desert. The place where many many many pioneers and their livestock died in the 1840s > 1880s.:26_16_2:

Wanderlusty
05-16-2007, 07:09 PM
In Las Vegas the new homes are not allowed to have a lawn. Drip system and desert landscaping is cool with me though, since it requires almost no maintenance.


Boy, I WISH I had that...I HATE mowing the lawn. On the flip side, I do the environment a good turn by not watering it....kinda turns brownish occasionally...but saves water....

Though we get enough rainfall here that it usually stays pretty much a greenish color most of the time.

I thought in the SW that desert landscaping was half the charm, but all the time I see pictures of houses in Phoenix, etc...with nice manicured lawns. That is kinda forcing your will upon your environment, no? Curious why people move out west for the scenery then plant grass so it looks like 'back east'....

calamaridog
05-17-2007, 12:08 AM
I thought in the SW that desert landscaping was half the charm, but all the time I see pictures of houses in Phoenix, etc...with nice manicured lawns. That is kinda forcing your will upon your environment, no? Curious why people move out west for the scenery then plant grass so it looks like 'back east'....

I don't mind the cactus but the 3yo doesn't like to play on them and the dog doesn't like to lay in the rocks so much.

So we have installed a small area of fake grass for them to play on.

I think many people have moved out west for opportunety but they may miss the grass and trees and such and want to have those here, but it is not practical to do so.

goodtimes
05-17-2007, 02:48 AM
So we have installed a small area of fake grass for them to play on.

I keep thinking about doing the same. My water use is a bit higher than I like (1751 gallons for the month)....but I'm trying to get some trees to grow and provide some shade (good excuse, eh?).

It is really hard to convince people to conserve water when the local government is trying to attract businesses like the now defunct Gatoraid deal....they were offering them 500,000 gallons per day! Golf courses...don't get me started! A conversation with a fellow whos employer services the pumping stations at a number of the local courses brought up the fact that they have the ability to pump 1,000,000 gallons per day, per course!!!!! A million freekin' gallons per day!!!

Scenic WonderRunner
05-17-2007, 03:16 AM
ahhhhhhhhh! the good ole' days..........!

I remember driving north up Scottsdale Road and going plinking with the 22 with my Dad up in no mans land!

Back when there was plenty of water!



(borrowed pic...approaching Phoenix 1972)
http://z.about.com/d/phoenix/1/0/k/2/historic03.JPG

Kermit
05-17-2007, 04:37 AM
(borrowed pic...approaching Phoenix 1972)
http://z.about.com/d/phoenix/1/0/k/2/historic03.JPG

That made me think of this...


http://www.hijinxcomics.com/images/crumb1.jpg

http://www.hijinxcomics.com/images/crumb2.jpg

SOAZ
05-17-2007, 04:43 PM
When I first came out to AZ I was suprised that, in the middle of the desert, most people had no concept of water conservation.
I don't know if it makes a big difference..
Growing up in Southern California everyone I knew always put rocks or something in their toilets water reservoir to lesson the amount of water used, we all had the annoying low flow things in the shower heads, always turned off the faucest when brushing our teeth etc etc etc. Out in az. I've yet to meet anyone, albeit the only people I ever find myself brushing my teeth next to are girls, that does these little things to conserve water.
It may make an inperceptable change, but you'd think that the govt out here would at least be making the same effort to change peoples thinking...

calamaridog
05-17-2007, 06:29 PM
http://www.easyturf.com/

This is the distributor of Fieldturf in Socal. Fieldturf is a leading brand of synthetic grass and has a life expectancy of several decades. They have some installations in Phoenix area that are around 15-20 years old and still look fantastic.

If you look at the total cost of installation, synthetic lawns make good sense. I spent about 10 minutes per month maintaining mine - just a quick rake to remove some debris.

The synthetic lawn surface is also softer than grass and makes a wonderful surface for sports and playgrounds too. The rubber fill material they use is often made from old sneakers and tires.

I believe we will see more and more of this stuff as fresh water is needed for consumption and hygiene instead of lawns and such.

Flounder
05-18-2007, 12:01 AM
I'm also a Prescott dweller. I too have heard the old timer stories about ferns in the forest and snow pack that would last into the spring months. I ride my mountain bike about 120 miles a week in the forests around here and man, the forest is dry, chewed up and dusty.

There are plenty of dry creek beds around here full of rounded river rocks. Most haven't seen enough water to round a rock in decades. While I think water restrictions should have been implemented in Arizona 50 years ago, i think bigger forces are at work here. Mama nature has probably given this part of the world her water rations for the next millinium. Hope you aren't too thirsty.

DaktariEd
05-18-2007, 01:39 AM
I've been harping on Phoenix water waste/overconsumption for >20 years...but now it's spreading!

Am I the only one around here that finds these "communities" with LAKES of all things, an absurd, asinine, ludicrous waste of water? Do you have any IDEA how much water is lost to evaporation? They are ALL OVER Phoenix and are now showing up here in Tucson! WTF are these people thinking???

MaddBaggins
06-05-2007, 01:54 PM
Thats the one that bothers me most Ed. The subdivisions with their own lakes, right after that I hate all the golf courses and then grass lawns.

We bought our house 4-1/2 years ago. It had a front yard full of grass, an almond tree and an orange tree. Now it has agave's, barrells, yuccas, ocotillo and rocks. My water usage dropped dramatically. The only flowers we plant now are desert wildflowers. They do require some water, but not a ton. We got a new dishwasher, with low water use functions and we use them. No one in my household takes long showers and all our toilets are 1.6 gallon flush. And to some of you this may sound a little nasty, but if the only thing in the bowl is a little pee, let it sit till next time. That saves a lot of water.

This is the desert and wasting water is wrong.

calamaridog
06-06-2007, 06:43 AM
And to some of you this may sound a little nasty, but if the only thing in the bowl is a little pee, let it sit till next time. That saves a lot of water.

If it's yellow let it mellow, if it's brown flush it down:D

Doin_It
06-06-2007, 02:47 PM
Calamaridog stated -


Yes, but a good amount of our water is used for sanitation

I read an interesting article a year or 2 ago, about the new waterless urinals that the State of CA. wanted to use in all its buildings. Guess what, the plumbing union fought it in court, and they aren't being used. I forget how many millions of gallons that would have saved.

We use a low flush toilets from Aus. in our house. Cost me twice as much to have them put in, but they use a 2 button system, 1 for "little jobs" 2 liters per flush, bigger button for "bigger jobs" 6 liters/flush. They never plug due to it being a 4" discharge vs. the 2" 5 gallon flush of North American toilets.

Water will be the next issue, not oil.

crawler#976
06-06-2007, 03:28 PM
If it's yellow let it mellow, if it's [brown flush it down

...that's exactly what's posted on the bathroom wall of the Cleator, AZ. bar.

MaddBaggins
06-06-2007, 03:56 PM
Calamaridog stated -



I read an interesting article a year or 2 ago, about the new waterless urinals that the State of CA. wanted to use in all its buildings. Guess what, the plumbing union fought it in court, and they aren't being used. I forget how many millions of gallons that would have saved.

We use a low flush toilets from Aus. in our house. Cost me twice as much to have them put in, but they use a 2 button system, 1 for "little jobs" 2 liters per flush, bigger button for "bigger jobs" 6 liters/flush. They never plug due to it being a 4" discharge vs. the 2" 5 gallon flush of North American toilets.

Water will be the next issue, not oil.


I'm in the plumbing supply business. Cochise county AZ now requires all new construction to have waterless urinals and all replacements to have waterless. We sell a number of them down there and a few here in Pima county as well. They haven't gotten real popular yet. I don't understand the plumbing union in CA fighting it though. It still requires a plumber to set the drain and the urinal, just no water supply.
I bet your toilets from Aus. are Caroma. We've sold a few.

Doin_It
06-06-2007, 06:39 PM
Yes they are Caroma, saw them when I used to work in Aus. and wanted them put in when we built 4 years ago. Just keep a toilet brush handy as with less water in the bowl, every once in a while you need a bit of a scrub. Other then that everyone should have one.

I'm sure like everything new the waterless urinals will take time, makes sense to me. Never seen one in action but why not use it.

devinsixtyseven
06-07-2007, 05:15 PM
The waterless urinals are in use from eastern CO to western KS, along I70 at the rest stops. Dunno if they're in other parts along I70 west as well.

Phoenix's aquifer has dropped about 600 feet or something, I don't remember the number off the top of my head. All those expensive golf course developments will slowy crack their foundations over the next 10-20 years, and wiser heads will say "I told you so."

Denver has a similar problem but uses surface water. Too many people move here from watery suburban areas and expect green grass, fountains, driveway car washing, spacious green golf courses and all the other trappings of wasteful water use in a high plains desert, all because they wanted to live in a place with 300 days of sun a year, mountains in the background, and green golf courses. It's not just AZ that's having trouble, it's any metro area in a mild desert environment, where people move for the weather and then try to make it look like Georgia.

-Sean