Need advice, E-locker conversion into 85'

[Erick Lihme]

How difficult is it to convert the 85' axle housing to accept an E-locker. I've seen write ups, looking for practical experience. It's a reasonable deal, $1,000 for the locker with wiring and switch, plus he'll throw in a 4.56 diff. The locker has 4.10's, and I could stay with 4.10's in the front.

[shawkins]

$1,000 for the locker? I think you can buy a new one for around that, maybe even $800.

You can get everything you need for the wiring for under $100 if you look. I have sold a few wiring setups for around $50 if I remember correctly.

I haven't personally done the conversion, but from what I have read, it's fairly easy if you know how to weld, drill and tap.

[Erick Lihme]

I'm only a novice welder, but I have a friend...if it's a matter of cutting a slot and a little grinding, no problem. I'm having a little trouble justifying a locker for my purposes, however, if I were to go for it, the e-locker would be the way to go. However, I've never driven with a locker! At $1,000, sounds like one could pass on it. Throwing a 4.56 diff does sweeten the deal, and I've parts he'll take in trade.

Thanks for the reply

[Scenic WonderRunner]

Installing Toyota’s Electric Locker into a 1st Generation 4Runner




http://carterswebsite.com/4runner/mods/locker/ <~Clickit!


(from website)

Drilling & taping

This was the most difficult part for me. It took a couple of tries to get it right. I’d definitely recommend a drill press. I didn’t have one at first, so I tried to use a hand-held drill.

My first attempt ended up with studs that were slightly off-center and not quite perpendicular to the gasket ring. If they are even slightly off, the carrier will not fit snugly against the gasket ring. Therefore, you need a way to mark the exact center of the stud holes so you can drill in the proper place.

Here is what worked for me: I installed the carrier assembly and bolted it down using the 8 existingstuds that fit it. I removed the electric actuator assembly to gain some more clearance. If you do this, be careful not to move the actuator arm inside the differential while it is separated from the electric motor.

Next, I found a drill bit that is almost exactly the same diameter as the inner-diameter of the stud holes in the carrier (22/64" I believe). Using this larger bit, I drilled straight down through the stud holes to mark the gasket ring. I drilled down until the larger drill bit had made a crater in the gasket ring so that it would help guide the smaller drill bit I actually used to drill the hole.

Once the center positions of all four of the new stud holes were marked in this fashion, I used the 17/64" drill bit to drill the holes. Don’t do this! There are two problems here. First, I counted on the 4" long stud hole to keep the drill bit perpendicular to the gasket ring, but since the 17/64" is considerably smaller than the stud hole, it ended up drilling at an angle, so the stud was not perpendicular to the gasket ring. Second, the 17/64" drill was large enough to "walk" in the crater I drilled with the larger drill bit and so it still ended up slightly off center. In the end, I had to hog-out the lower part of one of the long stud holes in the carrier to a larger diameter.

To avoid these problems, I suggest that you remove the carrier after marking the center of where the stud needs to go with the large drill bit. Then, use a small drill bit to drill a pilot hole. Use a drill press to do this and make sure that you get it perfectly perpendicular to the gasket ring. Once you get a pilot hole drilled, drill it out to 17/64".

Once you have drilled the new stud holes, use a 8mm x 1.25 and tap some threads in them.

You do not need to do anything to the unused stud holes.

Here are a couple of pictures showing the modifications (click on images to view larger version):


http://carterswebsite.com/4runner/mods/locker/th_housing_mods1.jpg


http://carterswebsite.com/4runner/mods/locker/th_housing_mods2.jpg

[DaveInDenver]

$1,000 for the locker? I think you can buy a new one for around that, maybe even $800.

That does sound pretty high. I want to say there were some deals, like maybe Toyota of Dallas (trdparts4u.com), that had a new stock e-locker third for about $850.

[Erick Lihme]

Plan 2

Downey has LSD for $500. Then there's the set up for about $200?
http://www.downeyoff-road.com/ChassisComponents/Lockers.html

I have a nice set of 4.30's to replace the worn 4.10's. Most folks wouldn't use 4.30's, however I like stock sized tires and would only use the tall tires for special trips. 4.56's would rev the motor to 3,445 at 75mph with stock tires, too high for me.

Perhaps I could use the LSD with 4.30's in the front? I'm concerned that LSD in the rear in the snow could cause one to loose the rear in turns at highway speeds. Is this correct? Pro/Cons?

TIA

[Boston Mangler]

If it were my rig, i would look for the whole kit and kaboodle to bolt in!

You can find complete drum to drum rear ends with the elocker for under $750and it would be from a new truck, so you get all newer seals, and bearings and such!

Just another option!

FYI: I just did a quick search on www.car-part.com and found a TON of them complete for under $800!

[Erick Lihme]

Good idea!

Track width however might be 1" or so wider, but would the drum brakes also be a tad bigger and better? There's shipping to consider as well. I'm in the booneys!

I do have new bearings and seals in the rear already.

Plan 3

For a little more, say $300 bucks, $500 +$500+ $300 (set up), if the LSD would be safe in the rear in the snow, LSD could be in both the front and rear?

Thanks for the help.

[Boston Mangler]

Good idea!

Track width however might be 1" or so wider,

Who cares? If anything, thats better!


but would the drum brakes also be a tad bigger and better?

Yes, and newer!


There's shipping to consider as well. I'm in the booneys!

I bet if wouldnt be more then $150 or so! $650 for the axle $150 for shipping, bamn, you are good to go!

[dieselcruiserhead]

go to car-part.com and search for a TDR tacoma '96 through '05 I believe and select diff lock 4.10 model. I paid $275 for mine. I did it twice now, really not that hard. It does help to have a welder to add a little puddle where you drill but not necessary. There is a spot where it will put the hole very close to a lip without the welder, but that is OK.. I bought a 8" long 1/4" drill bit for the holes it needed, this helped a lot. I also put rags and towels inside the housing to collect grinding dust...

[DaveInDenver]

The TRD limited slip is also another option, which I've seen as cheap as $200. For the front I personally would go open or selectable (Air Locker or e-locker). Limited slip in the front would be an option, but I would quickly run from an auto locker in the front. Also keep in mind that to run a limited slip in front, it's mandatory to run manual hubs (i.e., no ADD).

In the back a limited slip would be better than an auto locker in the snow. I've never driven a limited slip truck in those conditions, but an auto locker truck was a real chore. I went with an Air Locker just for the reason that I drive my truck on pavement a lot in the winter.

[Boston Mangler]

The TRD limited slip is also another option, which I've seen as cheap as $200. For the front I personally would go open or selectable (Air Locker or e-locker). Limited slip in the front would be an option, but I would quickly run from an auto locker in the front. Also keep in mind that to run a limited slip in front, it's mandatory to run manual hubs (i.e., no ADD).


Limited slip means that the gears need to be reset and such doesnt it? That will add big costs?

Dont know if the rear end ever came with one with LSD, but if it did and its already in there, that would be a good option too!

[Erick Lihme]

go to car-part.com and search for a TDR tacoma '96 through '05 I believe and select diff lock 4.10 model. I paid $275 for mine.

If I can get one for $275, that'd be steal, and subcomming the temptation to both wouldn't painful either! I've got a spare front axle I could screw up without pain, got's to rebuid the front anyway and will do it when intalling the OEM springs when tearing into all this fall. Can do it will both axles off. I can rationalize the excess this way :chowtime: Front and rear would make this thing a snow buster for sure.

Tx,

[Erick Lihme]

Also keep in mind that to run a limited slip in front, it's mandatory to run manual hubs

Mine are manual hubs. Carpart.com might have these as well or instead? This would be the easiest, no wiring either.

[Erick Lihme]

Dieselhead,

Found an E-locker on car-part.com for $350. Will have to call them to verify.

Thanks a bunch, it's a killer price.

[DaveInDenver]

Limited slip means that the gears need to be reset and such doesnt it? That will add big costs?

Dont know if the rear end ever came with one with LSD, but if it did and its already in there, that would be a good option too!
Yes, all options with the exception of a lunchbox locker (Lockright, Aussie) will require you to set up the gears again. That does add cost. If you get a built third member, then it's bolt-n-go.

I think Supras had the limited slip as an option, but AFAIK no mini trucks had them from the factory. TRD offers them aftermarket.

[dieselcruiserhead]

Also don't be scared to call on the ones that don't list the price.. I think lowest retail was $350.. The one I found for $275 was actually super low mileage and cheaper! Congrats regardless! Definitely the cheapest selectable locker around.. The harness and new studs should run you less than $50...

[Grim Reaper]

It is not really that hard of a job. I picked up a used e-locker (actually traded some tires and wheels for it). as for installing it. Took me a day to make the actuator control. Took about a day to install the diff taking my time. I am a above average shade tree though and I do own a welder.

Works great. Only complaint is a the place I got the resistors from didn't have the 10ohm so I went with 12ohm and it is a little slow to engage. The factory set up in my sisters Taco is about twice as fast.

There is some info in my build thread in my sig.

I have a set of low mile 4.30's that were on my locker for sale if you need them.

[dieselcruiserhead]

Also I didn't use resistors and I did cook my motor. I had read from a few places that you don't have to, I think they were wrong..

[Erick Lihme]

Well, I'm hot on the trial, but the process is slow. The yard wanted me to confirm the part with a call to the dealer using the vin, which is provides only the options available, not specifics. They are sending pictures of it, and it should be either 4.10 or 4.30 gears. Hopefully it is the 4.30's, but can't loose whatever one it is for only $300 bucks, its a steal. Odds are it is the 4.30's which come with the automatic which are popular with the v6.

As essentially I'm also a shade tree mechanic, an easy day which Reaper describes should do it. Instead of doing the electric's, however, I'm inclined to do the cable to keep it simple and reliable. It's a $159 at Downey.

Without you-guys it wouldn't have happened...

[dieselcruiserhead]

I'm pretty sure the electric locker versions came in 4.1 only.. You can probably double check but I seem to recall this..

[Erick Lihme]

That'd do it!

[Grim Reaper]

I'm pretty sure the electric locker versions came in 4.1 only.. You can probably double check but I seem to recall this..
They came 4.10, 4.30 (thats what mine was) and 4.56. 4.30 was the most common coming in the high end V6 auto 4Runner. 4.56 is not very common at all but you can order them right from Toyota with that gear.
You can order them brand new for $876 at https://www.1sttoyotaparts.com/partscat.html


I found a factory front 4.88 after not being able to find a 4.30 front so I re geared mine to 4.88. Glad I did. you would never know the truck was spinning 33x12.5's driving it. Speedo is 1mph fat at 60. Getting 20mpg on the hwy no problem.

[shawkins]

I think the 4.56 was for the rare 4cyl. 4Runner with 31" tires.

[DaveInDenver]

I think the 4.56 was for the rare 4cyl. 4Runner with 31" tires.
Isn't it based solely on the transmission and tire size? I always thought that was how the final drive was determined. This seems to be the case up to 1995/96 (the Hilux based trucks). Toyota just seems to very rarely put 31" tires on a truck with a 4 cylinder engine, but the 4.56 ratio itself is actually very common with 1989-1995 V6 trucks (I dunno if that's true of Tacomas).

5 speed + 225/75R15 = 4.10
5 speed + 31x10.50 = 4.56
auto + 225/75R15 = 4.30
auto + 31x10.50 = 4.88

[Erick Lihme]

Apparently the electric actuators do have problems/fail, hence the cable idea.
This is all that was found on Google on cable actuated e-lockers, not much:

Again, Downey's site: http://www.downeyoff-road.com/ChassisComponents/Lockers.html

Investigating the Pro and Cons; Users comments:

http://members.cox.net/vavp/trdconversion.htm
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-139172.html
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-139090.html

CrusierDiesil:
Waiting for photos on the deal found. Vin # indicates the donor vehicle to have the options of 4.10 or 4.30. 4 banger auto's rare, V6 Auto's common. Hope to get lucky! 4.10 e-lockers are said elsewhere to be the most common found on car-parts. Will offer the local guy $500 for his fresh locker in 4.30's if none can be found otherwise. Shipping charges should be less...
Also did reading on how lockers easy trail driving and stress on the vehicle in general, got educated. It should be a sweeeet combination, and best mod ever for this old 85'.

[Grim Reaper]

Also did reading on how lockers easy trail driving and stress on the vehicle in general, got educated. It should be a sweeeet combination, and best mod ever for this old 85'.

I LOVE my locker. My last truck had a Detroit in it in the back and a Lockright in the front. It was modified where I could run 2 Low. I could run the majority of the trails that way and have steering. I only hit 4wd when I cam up on the bad spots.

In my 4Runner I so far can hang with my buddy in his stock Rubicon unlimited. I actually have better ground clearance. It climbs like a scalded dog!

For the trails most of us doing with expedition type travel it is a great combo.

[DaveInDenver]

Also did reading on how lockers easy trail driving and stress on the vehicle in general, got educated. It should be a sweeeet combination, and best mod ever for this old 85'.
It's true, a locked diff (particularly full spool, like the e-locker or Air Locker) means that each wheel on the axle see exactly 50% of the torque. So you are actually /less/ likely to break stuff with a locker than with another differential, as long as you drive reasonably. Bouncing around will still shift weight disproportionally and in a geared down drivetrain that's still a lot of torque. Grim is a smart guy and no disrespect, but that's part of the reason it's bad to use 2WD-low. You will more than double (2.28x in a 4 cylinder Toyota t-case) the amount torque delivered to the driveshaft. So you are putting a lot of torque into the rear axle. There definitely lower risk with the rear locked, but I still feel it's mostly unnecessarily stressing things.

[Erick Lihme]

After reading several accounts it appears approaches with a locker can be made slower and more controlled. Read about Marlin Crawlers looking for a similar advantage. At the moment, I'm undecided about the crawler, extra cost and extreme stress on the driveline, makes it something to avoid if the e-locker allows one to go slower, making momentum (speed) less necessary on steep hills to avoid loosing traction. However it would be good to crawl.....

[DaveInDenver]

After reading several accounts it appears approaches with a locker can be made slower and more controlled. Read about Marlin Crawlers looking for a similar advantage. At the moment, I'm undecided about the crawler, extra cost and extreme stress on the driveline, makes it something to avoid if the e-locker allows one to go slower, making momentum (speed) less necessary on steep hills to avoid loosing traction. However it would be good to crawl.....
The crawler does increase the torque (and by a lot). In theory I do not want one, but any time I get into a technical spot, riding the clutch and trying to keep the engine in it's power band has me convinced I need lower gears. That for me is the biggest advantage, with a Marlin or even just 4.70:1 t-case gears, the engine will be happier to go slow.

[Erick Lihme]

Based on your experience, the crawler is on the list. I'm planning on putting all this together in fall.

Might prefer the dual case because the 4.7o gearing alone I was considering is too low for normal trail speeds, lowering the top comfortable speed down to about 10-12 mph with revs near 3000. The dual case 2.28 x 2.28 seems to be the way to go, unfortunately one should be careful not to break the truck.

[DaveInDenver]

Based on your experience, the crawler is on the list. I'm planning on putting all this together in fall.

Might prefer the dual case because the 4.7o gearing alone I was considering is too low for normal trail speeds, lowering the top comfortable speed down to about 10-12 mph with revs near 3000. The dual case 2.28 x 2.28 seems to be the way to go, unfortunately one should be careful not to break the truck.
You are going through the same decision process as me. I don't specifically crawl my truck, but having two lockers means I do want to see where I can go. For me an Ultimate seems like overkill when doubled down (both cases engaged). But I can see advantages to having a stock ratio low range and a second super low. I have 5.29 final axle ratios on 33" tires and so my 1st gear is pretty decently low, so I think just put in 4:1 transfer gears and be happy. But the 2.28:1 ratio is not just a coincidence. Toyota seems to have picked that ratio so that the tranny gearing has a relationship. You'll notice that 1-2-3-4-5 under normal acceleration come at pretty even intervals, around 15,25,35,45,55 MPH. When in low range, the shift points move lower, but still at regular intervals, like 5,10,15,20,25 MPH. The ultra low gearing throws a wrench in all that, so you end up going 1->3->5 and that is not a natural shift pattern for you or the tranny. So for most normal 4WD roads, having a stock low range is handy and so I keep coming back to two cases. Whether or not the second gets 2.28, 4.0, 4.7 is the hard decision. I wonder if a double stock ratio has the effect of just changing the interval to 2,4,6,8,10 MPH in low-low or not? Anyway, with both cases in low, I think you are using one particular gear, be that 1st, 2nd, whatever, to crawl and you aren't really shifting anyway. So I figure I'll do 2.28 and 4.70 and when I'm in low-low I'll just find a tranny gear that is appropriate for the task.

[Erick Lihme]

Yes, it is a question of how loooow will she go! :rolleyes:

Playing with a gear calculator helps and suggests that your choice, a 2.28 x 4.70 is the way to go. With the 2.28 x 2.28 = 5.20 reduction for the most control for safety and success doesn't seem optimal. 33's with 5.29's in 1st yields 1mph at 1,100 rpms, and 2mph at 2,200 rpms.

The 2.28 x 4.70 = 10.70 reduction. With this kind of torque some recommend chaining the motor and trans down to avoid broken mounts. Go sans chains if used infrequently and especially if one is EASY on the throttle it might be useful during self recovery as: 1st yields 1mph at 2, 270 rpm, 1/2 mph at 1,100 rpm, slow enough to help the winch? In 5th, 6 mph can be attained at
2,939 rpm, and keep it out of the sand.

I'd have to agree on paper anyway, that if going with the double case, going extreme might be practical, rather than my conservative approach of 2.28 x 2.28, or 4.70 single case. The stock 2.28 cases rarely wear out, and the expense of going with that single case in lower gears may not be the best money spent. At this point the 2.28 x 4.70 combo wins.

It's good to talk it out. I'll try to read more over at the Marlin Crawler board.

[Erick Lihme]

http://www.4crawler.com/4x4/4R_TechInfo.shtml

The user comments on his Ultimate Crawler (2.28x 4.70) with 33's and 4.88 Diffs:

# To put this in perspective, take a typical engine idle speed of 800 RPM and using 33" tires with the above gearing, your speed is about 29 feet/minute, or less than 1/3 MPH!
# FYI: My 22RE engine will stall in lo-lo-2nd gear at idle (121:1) but will not stall in lo-lo-1st (224:1), even up a steep hill w/ brakes applied.


Not only would we have this extreme example, yet many other possible gear choices from the stock 2.28 to every thing in between....Interesting!

[Grim Reaper]

It's true, a locked diff (particularly full spool, like the e-locker or Air Locker) means that each wheel on the axle see exactly 50% of the torque. So you are actually /less/ likely to break stuff with a locker than with another differential, as long as you drive reasonably. Bouncing around will still shift weight disproportionally and in a geared down drivetrain that's still a lot of torque. Grim is a smart guy and no disrespect, but that's part of the reason it's bad to use 2WD-low. You will more than double (2.28x in a 4 cylinder Toyota t-case) the amount torque delivered to the driveshaft. So you are putting a lot of torque into the rear axle. There definitely lower risk with the rear locked, but I still feel it's mostly unnecessarily stressing things.

That is a double ended.

Locked both ends and making a tight turn you are putting more strain on the drive lines because you are binding across the full wheelbase and track. In my case I ran 2 low because the lock right acts like a spool and as soon as you apply power to it you have an issue with extreme UNDERSTEER.

If the trail was smooth and non technical I ran 2 low. It allowed me to make tighter turns. It put a LOT less stress on the steering (and I could over heat the powersteeing in that truck). The low range gave me better throttle control. That truck was an auto so running over 2,000 rpm got the converter fully locked. It also made the load on the engine and transmission lower so they generated less heat. My 5speed 4Banger I regularly put around at 1000 RPM and it pulls just fine for most stuff. Just cant do that with most Auto tranny's

Yes it put more stress on the rear axle but in trail conditions it was nowhere near the stress that axle saw on pavement where I didn't drive in 4wd either. With the Detroit as soon as you got on the gas you were a Spool. The only way to unlock it is to basically coast through tight turns. I could steer the truck on the hwy with the gas peddle. The more gas you applied the straighter the truck would go despite the steering input.

After the ill handling issues I had on the street I decided that a selectable locker was mandatory in my next rig (my current 4Runner) and why It now has the e-locker. Max traction off road and great manners on the street. Best of both worlds.

[DaveInDenver]

Locked both ends and making a tight turn you are putting more strain on the drive lines because you are binding across the full wheelbase and track.

True point, without a selectable front locker that would be a very valid issue. That's why IMHO the front of most (i.e., non-hard core rock hounds) 4WD vehicles should be left open unless the locker is selectable. An auto front locker would reduce stress on the driveline straight ahead, but be brutal on the steering and like you say, binding would be a problem.