Best way to get Mom, Dad and Kiddo out on the water?

[LaOutbackTrail]

We are wanting to get into watersports this summer and are now researching/shopping for the best way to get the three of us on the water.

I want something that is versatile enough that I can paddle all of the types of waterways available in my region and beyond. I'd like to be able to do up to class III whitewater, flatwater lakes, protected estuaries/mangroves along the coast, and easier rivers.

I like the idea of the Mad River Adventure 16 canoe. Seating for 3 plus room for gear. That's probably the only way I'd go if I were to get a canoe.

The other idea I like is two boats. Tandem kayak and a single kayak. Me and kiddo would go in the tandem and wife would paddle the single. This idea is most appealing to me because it gives me the option of being able to have a decent craft if I go someplace by myself. But lets face it, double the cost...

Your ideas? Has anyone had the same conundrum?

[LaOutbackTrail]

Allow me to revise my state about which whitewater classes I'd be willing to endure and how.

I'd like the ability to BE ABLE TO do a class three in whichever craft I end up with, but no more than a class two if kiddo is on board...

[Frankspinz]

I am a BIG fan of canoes ! One canoe will allow you to paddle solo, two people, two people with gear for a week, two people, kids and the dog ... etc ...

Any expedition 16 footer, prospector style, will run rapids and paddle lakes adequately... Same as 4x4s, everything is compromise ! Royalex is bomb proof but heavy... kevlar is light for portages, great for lakes, but not recommended for rapids & rocks ...

That Mad River Adventure looks great...

Canoes are like trucks ... an incurable disease !

[T.Low]

At the risk of getting flamed by some of the old timers, here's the deal: That is a lot to ask from one boat.

For a boat to have an adequate amount of rocker to the hull to handle class III, it will be brutal when attempting to paddle any real distance on flat water. And vice versa.

It's not unlike only having an adjustable wrench for all your truck maintenance.

I'm not familiar with the Adventure but the Mad River Explorer is a versatile boat. I'm a fan of the shallow V hull. The difference in paddling Royalex compared to fiberglass is definitely worth the price difference, go with the fiberglass.

But again, the 16fter is brutal on flat water camping trips. Just rent an 18' when you go to Boundary Waters. And it will be a battle to learn how to catch catch eddies in class III. You'll just be bombing down the raft line without too many options.

As far as kayaks...I guess I would start with the Prijon Yukon for solo and the Prijon whatever it's called for the tandem. But again, my tandem white water boat is 12' long and my tandem sea kayak is 22' long, so at 17' it's an unwildly barge on class III and a slow pig on flatwater. I'm just saying...

[LaOutbackTrail]

I guess, I should mention we do not intend to cover any sort of significant distance if there is not a water current present.

And maybe I am being a bit ambitious with wanting to handle class III... maybe a II+. With a guide, I've paddled (and forced to swim:Wow1::sombrero:) IV+ rapids, but no way would I bring kiddo anywhere near that until she's older...

Let me give a real life example of the upper level of what I'd like to do... right now the Mulberry river in Arkansas is at a 2.9. We were half planning a canoe trip up there, but at this point, I do not feel comfortable paddling that with the family. If it were a 2.0 no problem.

Maybe if I keep blabbing, I'll say enough to help get you guys on my page and understand what I'm wanting to do here!:D

[tdesanto]

I would suggest getting the boat the fits the needs of the type of water you'll be on most often. Then, rent what you need for other types of water.

Or, don't buy, but rent what you need when you need it.

Another suggestion, look for used equipment instead of new. Most of the time this stuff depreciates pretty quickly and deals are out there if you're patient.

[T.Low]

The Mad River Explorer (16' with moderate rocker) is the XR650L of the paddling world.

It can do it all. The XR650 can do tight single track, but I sure do't want to do it. I can munch freeway miles along side a GS1200 or even a Goldwing...but I sure don't want to do it. It can do the twisties, but it will be lacking. You get the picture. Because it can do it all, it 's a comprimise at almost everything.

That's all I'm saying. As long as you really know that going into your purchase.


It's not difficult to buy right used, meaning that it's quite possible to be able to sell at or close to your purchase price, especially if you buy a coveted, popular model like a fiberglass Explorer.

I would also recommend taking a class before you buy. It will greatly increase your knowledge of what input to give to get the desired out put from your boat, and therefore will also show how to test paddle a bout to see if it does what you want/need it to do.

Also, and this is huge, I can teach a beginner to paddle correctly and safely in a half a day. But it's a major struggle to overcome years of wrongly "intuitive" paddling technique. Usually, you can't. The body motions and muscle memory are too ingrained.

Take a class now, then there should be canoe demos in your area any day now. Go out and test paddle everything you can and talk to the reps. Figure out two or three models that will work for your intended purposes, then find a used one and get on the water.

[mountainpete]

The Mad River Explorer (16' with moderate rocker) is the XR650L of the paddling world.

I have that boat. It's an awesome family boat. Very stable, lots of room and easy to paddle. I wouldn't take it on Class III, but that may just be me.

x2 on the class advice if your experience is limited. Looking back, I wish I would have done that.

Pete

[LaOutbackTrail]

Thanks for the advice guys. I'm looking up classes now.

Definitely buying used.......

[LaOutbackTrail]

I would suggest getting the boat the fits the needs of the type of water you'll be on most often. Then, rent what you need for other types of water.

I like this idea, Tony!

[INSAYN]

I would highly recommend the Ocean Kayak Malibu Two for a couple of reasons as one of your kayaks.

1. It is plastic and can take an amazing amount of abuse over rocks and such, UV stable for colorfast in the sun. Easy to customize for fishing if you ever desire to do that.

2. It's a sit on top style of kayak that can seat 1 or 2 adults, or even 2 adults and a small child.

3. It's easy to paddle, can take rapids, doesn't require any special kayaking skills to master, and is forgiving if you fall off somehow. Very easy to get back on even in rough water.

The OK Malibu Two is the yellow one in the background with my wife, daughter and doggy.

http://i604.photobucket.com/albums/tt128/INSAYN_BCR/Hagg%20Lake%202009/P6120096.jpg

The orange kayak in the picture is a Ocean Kayak Trident 13 Angler. Very well set up for fishing. I put a seat in the tank well for my son. I can actually go faster with him in the back, than not in the yak at all. Weird huh?

http://i604.photobucket.com/albums/tt128/INSAYN_BCR/Hagg%20Lake%202009/P6120121.jpg

Both of these kayaks are surf launch-able for heading out into the ocean, and I have done so many times with the orange one. Also great in rivers, lakes, ponds, and some creeks.

http://i604.photobucket.com/albums/tt128/INSAYN_BCR/Fishing/Cape%20Kiwanda%204_09/P4090005.jpg

[LaOutbackTrail]

Hmmm Thanks for that info! There are several of those on the local craigslist!

How big is your boy? My daughter is (big) 5 year old.

[INSAYN]

Hmmm Thanks for that info! There are several of those on the local craigslist!

How big is your boy? My daughter is (big) 5 year old.

Son is currently going on 10 and he was 8 in the picture. He still fits in the back there.

[Roverholic]

I keep a Sea Eagle inflatable 2 man kayak in the trailer and a stream worthy "tube" as well. I used to drag around "real" kayaks but found I would sometimes travel for a week without getting them wet. When you're driving around in an Old *** Land Rover this can be a real pain!

[LaOutbackTrail]

I keep a Sea Eagle inflatable 2 man kayak in the trailer and a stream worthy "tube" as well. I used to drag around "real" kayaks but found I would sometimes travel for a week without getting them wet. When you're driving around in an Old *** Land Rover this can be a real pain!

The way it would work for us is that we would need to do a water/boat specific trip... not just dragging it around, that would be quite uneconomical.

[LaOutbackTrail]

Wow, I really like INSAYN's idea... I keep going back to that. I know my wife would feel comfortable with the SOT style. I think I used an 11ft OK in Costa Rica at one point, and it was comfy and stable and tracked straight enough while paddling up stream.

[INSAYN]

These SOT (sit on top) style kayaks are contageously fun. Took a few guys out one by one to the local lake after they kept hearing of and seeing all the pics of my outings (solo and with family). One buddy now has 3 kayaks, another has 2, anther has 1, and he just got his other friend into a tandem.
We have quite the floatilla on the local waters out here.

Not only are they great for family use, they are a blast in the ocean.
Can go in water that some boats can't even go. :victory:

[35thAV]

For paddleing around with the kiddo and my wife I picked up a Folbot Greenland II.

I have other boats as well but these are some of the reasons I chose this boat:
17' long holds a ton of gear
Amazingly stable
I can switch to a very capable 1-man setup in a couple minutes
Fits the 3 of us easily

Best part...It breaks down in to 2 bags (5-10 mins) so I can toss it in the Blast Shelter or in the canopy on the back of the truck for long trips and security when not in use


http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_r9JvVQAZwHY/TFCkrpZcwaI/AAAAAAAAAqk/mqENMRqVmPo/s320/3na3m43l75O35Q15T3a7ec74718e837f41a9e.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_r9JvVQAZwHY/TFCmSdWMkWI/AAAAAAAAAq8/IOg19JJwBKg/s320/3ma3p23l45Y45U45R3a7eb6ccbd1c842b125f.jpg

We love this thing!

[LaOutbackTrail]

But... but... that thing costs almost double what I paid for my truck!!!

Beautiful boat though!

[lam396]

If I can ask a question, how old were all your kids when you guys started taking them out on the canoe/kayak? My wife and I have differing opinions on an appropriate age and I'm curious when you all started bringing them along.

[LaOutbackTrail]

My daughter has been flatwater canoeing at ~2 years old.... but waterways infested with alligators.:ylsmoke:

She did have a life jacket appropriate to her size and weight, and most importantly, one that keeps the head above water.

http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/183447_595092782751_62002887_33072104_7348665_n.jp g
Yes, I am using a kayak paddle in a canoe. It just works better for me!

[INSAYN]

If I can ask a question, how old were all your kids when you guys started taking them out on the canoe/kayak? My wife and I have differing opinions on an appropriate age and I'm curious when you all started bringing them along.


We got in to kayaking in late 2008 so my kids were already well past the age of when they learned to swim. Daughter was 12 and son was 8. They have been in power boats occasionally since about 5 yrs old.

One thing that really helps with the young kids and water is to get them use to PFD'S (life jackets) really early in life and parents to lead by example. Kids need reassurance that these goofy looking floaty devices are serious business, and life saving. My kids are funny in how use to PFD's they are. They could be swimming and playing in the lake from shore, and after a few hours they get busy playing in the sand nowhere near water completely forgetting that they even have their PFD's still on .

Back to the kayaking with little ones. As long as you the parent are comfortable with stability of the vessel, and not in waters that could be hazardous like fast flowing, white cap infused, or dangerously cold, then any child that can sit still and have a properly fitting PFD on should not miss the opportunity to hit the water with you. :cool:

[Paladin]

How about 8 months old?

http://i418.photobucket.com/albums/pp267/R_Lefebvre/Family/P7110034.jpg

These PFD's are great. They work well, and they are comfortable for them to wear, as you can see.

[Paladin]

Back to the original question, I think you're asking too much of one boat. Although, the Mad River canoe is pretty close to hitting it. It *will* do everything, just as an XR650L can do everything. Very good analogy. If you stick with the one-boat thing, that's a great way to go.

To stick with that idea, I really dislike SOT's, and many other of these recreational boats. They're a lot like an XL125. Too slow to go on the highway at all, and they pretty much suck in single track too. Fine for plonking around, and great for beginners, but you'll outgrow them pretty fast if you're serious about this at all. Don't get me wrong, better than nothing, and can be fun to use in certain situations. They are friendly, and allow some people to get out who wouldn't otherwise be able to. But if you actually want to run rapids, or actually go on a trip, they're completely useless.

My parents bought some 10 foot kayaks from Costco, and my goodness do they suck. They're so slow, and they are darn near impossible to paddle straight, and I'm a very experienced paddler. Frankly if I had to go somewhere on water, I think I'd rather swim.

My cousin bought a 12 foot kayak from a real boat store, and it's better. Nicely outfitted, and tracks straight as an arrow. But it's still slowish. The hull was designed for stability and straight tracking.

I've got a Dimension R5 kayak, an old design, but man, what a great boat. It really does everything. If you packed ultra-light, you could use it for a 1 week camping trip. I can sustain about 7kph IIRC all day long. And I've shot class 3 rapids on it. Too long to "play", but it can shoot rapids well.

We bought a Swift Temagami kevlar canoe last year. Really nice boat. 17.5 feet long, only 54 lbs, slightly wide for stability and cargo. Quick on the water, but not a racing canoe. Not suitable for whitewater at all though. I mean... *you could*, but it's fragile.

This is the family boat. It's HUGE, but light enough to throw over your head.

http://i418.photobucket.com/albums/pp267/R_Lefebvre/Trip%20Reports/Achray%202010/IMG_6283.jpg

http://i418.photobucket.com/albums/pp267/R_Lefebvre/Trip%20Reports/Achray%202010/P9030013.jpg

My wife and I did the Baron Canyon run last year, 14km round trip at a leisurely pace in about 4 hours, including a couple portages, 1 hour lunch stop, and 30 minutes sheltering from a storm. You are just not going to be able to do that on a SOT.

http://i418.photobucket.com/albums/pp267/R_Lefebvre/Trip%20Reports/Achray%202010/P9030017.jpg

I've never seen a tandem kayak that could run rapids either.

[35thAV]

We took her out on the water starting about 2 yrs old. Obvioulsy we started out with very short adventures on safe quiet water with the appropriate safety gear. Also we started her swimming about at about 7 months old (if I remember right?).
Now she's almost 3 1/2 and we can make trips that last many hours with out much hassle.

No whitewater for quite a few more years....but she sure talks about like she's ready to go!

Here she is at age 2 1/2 looking at the eagles on the Skagit River in WA
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_r9JvVQAZwHY/S9btFMAOT1I/AAAAAAAAAnk/1a4yqa429i0/s320/Hanneman_1793-b+copy.jpg

[refried]

I've never seen a tandem kayak that could run rapids either.

The Topo-Duo is a classic tandem creeker thats been made for 15? or more years.
http://www.eskimo-kajaks.de/english/02_topoduo.html
Jackson Kayak has been making one for several years too (Dynamic Duo).
http://jacksonkayak.com/jk-kayaks/whitewater/dynamic-duo-series/

[Paladin]

The Topo-Duo is a classic tandem creeker thats been made for 15? or more years.
http://www.eskimo-kajaks.de/english/02_topoduo.html
Jackson Kayak has been making one for several years too (Dynamic Duo).
http://jacksonkayak.com/jk-kayaks/whitewater/dynamic-duo-series/

Huh, wild. Wouldn't be good on flat water though.

Might as well throw this out there since the thread is about families and canoes:

http://www.rapidmedia.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=95:canoeroots-magazine&catid=46

I subscribed, nice 'Zine.

[T.Low]

To stick with that idea, I really dislike SOT's, and many other of these recreational boats. They're a lot like an XL125. Too slow to go on the highway at all, and they pretty much suck in single track too. Fine for plonking around, and great for beginners, but you'll outgrow them pretty fast if you're serious about this at all. Don't get me wrong, better than nothing, and can be fun to use in certain situations. They are friendly, and allow some people to get out who wouldn't otherwise be able to. Frankly if I had to go somewhere on water, I think I'd rather swim.

I've got a Dimension R5 kayak, an old design, but man, what a great boat. It really does everything. If you packed ultra-light, you could use it for a 1 week camping trip. I can sustain about 7kph IIRC all day long. And I've shot class 3 rapids on it. Too long to "play", but it can shoot rapids well.


My wife and I did the Baron Canyon run last year, 14km round trip at a leisurely pace in about 4 hours, including a couple portages, 1 hour lunch stop, and 30 minutes sheltering from a storm. You are just not going to be able to do that on a SOT.


I've never seen a tandem kayak that could run rapids either.



I must say I'm not a fan of SOT's either. ..

I've never seen an R5 outside of Canada. It is a good all round boat. Similar to a Prijon Yukon.

The Prijon plastic 17' tandem can shoot the raft line on class III rapids, it's just not gonna go eddy hopping down a class IV. Don't make me get my buddies picture of him in his fiberglass tandem with his dog sitting in the fore cockpit (I couldn't get myself to type "dog paddling bow") down the Owyhee.

[INSAYN]

Cute pic of your youngster sleeping in the canoe.

I respect your opinion on SOT kayaks, but what do you consider slow? I can maintain 3.5-4mph all day long with just me paddling, with two it's even easier. How fast does a person need to travel on the water to be considered fast or fun under human power?

You tip a canoe over in the ocean or in river current, then what?
I have no experience with a canoe, therefore I ask.

I agree there are some really crappy SOT kayaks out there that are not intended for much more than simple flat water recreation for a beginner. However, there are many options available in high quality tandem SOT kayaks.


Ocean Kayak Malibu Two
Ocean Kayak Zest Two EXP
Malibu Pro2 Tandem
Cobra Tandem
Cobra Triple
Wilderness Systems Tarpon 130T
Hobie Kona
Hobie Odyssey
Hobie Mirage Oasis (Tandem with mirage drive)
Hobie Mirage Outfitter (Tandem with mirage drive)
Hobie Mirage i14T (Inflatable tandem with mirage drive)

The Hobie Mirage powered kayaks are a hoot and even faster, however spendy! I also have a Hobie Revolution (single seater), that I can get up to 6.5mph and can maintain 4.5-5mph for miles on end with just my feet.

Here's s'more pics of our Ocean Kayak tandem.

http://i604.photobucket.com/albums/tt128/INSAYN_BCR/Fishing/2010%20Boys%20only%20camp%20trip/P8150076.jpg

http://i604.photobucket.com/albums/tt128/INSAYN_BCR/Fishing/2010%20Boys%20only%20camp%20trip/P8150081.jpg

http://i604.photobucket.com/albums/tt128/INSAYN_BCR/Fishing/2010%20Boys%20only%20camp%20trip/P8170149.jpg

http://i604.photobucket.com/albums/tt128/INSAYN_BCR/Fishing/2010%20Boys%20only%20camp%20trip/P8170160.jpg

In Oregon I paddle/peddle lakes, ponds, mighty Columbia River, Willamette River, bays, estuaries, and most fun ever is 1-2 miles off shore fishing in the cold and dangerous Pacific Ocean for Rock fish, Ling cod, Cabezon, and Flounder.

Click this pic for a video of us coming back into Depoe Bay harbor.
http://i604.photobucket.com/albums/tt128/INSAYN_BCR/Fishing/Depoe%20Bay%20042211/th_P4220032.jpg (http://s604.photobucket.com/albums/tt128/INSAYN_BCR/Fishing/Depoe%20Bay%20042211/?action=view&current=P4220032.mp4)


Undersized Ling cod. That sucker got my finger and poked two holes in it.
http://i604.photobucket.com/albums/tt128/INSAYN_BCR/Fishing/Depoe%20Bay%20042211/P4220022.jpg



My monster cabezon of the day! Fish tacos!!! :chef:
http://i604.photobucket.com/albums/tt128/INSAYN_BCR/Fishing/Depoe%20Bay%20042211/P4220037.jpg

[Paladin]

Man, those are some ugly fish! ;)


I respect your opinion on SOT kayaks, but what do you consider slow? I can maintain 3.5-4mph all day long with just me paddling, with two it's even easier. How fast does a person need to travel on the water to be considered fast or fun under human power?



Well, it really depends what you want to do. I'm into tripping, which means... the faster the better. And keep in mind, my canoe's payload is 1100lbs, and I have the volume to do it. And still do 6-7mph.

How fast do you have to go? Well, how far do you want to go?

IIRC, we hit 8mph running from this storm, had to get out of the canyon to a place we could take shelter, left these other poor schlepps in our wake.

http://i418.photobucket.com/albums/pp267/R_Lefebvre/Trip%20Reports/Achray%202010/P9030028.jpg


You tip a canoe over in the ocean or in river current, then what?


Well yeah, then you're in trouble. For flat water, you can rescue a canoe if there is another canoe. Process is to flip the one canoe upside down, and then lift it up cross-wise onto the other canoe to empty it. Flip it right side up, and slide it back into the water. But if you're alone, that's not an option. With a modern lightweight canoe and strong swimmers, you can get much of the water out lifting it over your head and rolling it over. Then climb in, and bail out the rest of the water.

Frankly, the better option is just don't go too far from shore. Which is why they don't use canoes much in the ocean, this is true.

In rapids... IMO, people who take canoes onto Class III or higher water, it's only because they are gluttons for punishment. ;) Even with flotation bags, you can't roll up the way you can in a kayak. You have to swim to shore, which first of all assumes you CAN swim to shore.

http://i418.photobucket.com/albums/pp267/R_Lefebvre/Trip%20Reports/img_3647.jpg

If you tipped on a Class III rapid while loaded with camping gear, you have a pretty serious problem.

http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=32191&stc=1&d=1252604818

Expecially if you're alone.

http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=32190&stc=1&d=1252604819

I have never, ever, ever tipped a canoe on flat water unless I wanted to. I really don't understand that cliche about canoes. I've been paddling since I was 4.

That Hobie Mirage is pretty cool. I've seen propeller drives too. Makes a lot of sense to use our legs for propulsion.

[INSAYN]

No cliche on canoes here. I've never been in one, just curious on some of the logistics.

Do you measure your speed via GPS?

[Paladin]

Yes, GPS, I was actually disappointed with 8mph, thought we were going faster. ;)

[INSAYN]

Yes, GPS, I was actually disappointed with 8mph, thought we were going faster. ;)

8 mph is scooting right along. A few more mph, and you'd get it up on plane. :victory:

[Micky]

I also like the idea of the tony for the Best way to get Mom, Dad and Kiddo out on the water.
I think it is very effective and does work for the right purpose.