SAS for expedition tacoma?

[Winky]

I was just curious to know if any of you tacoma guys have considered this. I have a jeep rubi tj right now but it isn't the best long hauler and with a work injury isn't the most practical vehicle anymore. I have been considering trading to a DC tacoma for the comfort and space. I just can't stand IFS. It's because I don't know squat when it comes to repairing them. I was thinking just a simple swap no d60s or anything and staying low with 255/85s. What do you guys and girls think? BTW expedition is my main focus.

Josh

[Brian894x4]

I used to travel with an SAS 1989 Toyota. Still have it actually, but it's been retired and will eventually be sold off. Replaced it with a Land Cruiser FZJ80.

The reasons are many. I too, can't really stand IFS, although I reconize that there aren't that many places a well designed IFS truck can't go that a solid axle rig, set up for expeditions (as opposed to all out buggy dedicated 4 wheeler) could go. Just look at Scott's Tacoma for example.

But solid axles do bring things to the table like beefier and more reliable axles, steering, and at least an easier time tackling obsticals.

The biggest problem with SASing either the older Toyota trucks or the Tacoma is that it's very difficult to build them using stock or even moderate lift hieghts, which it sounds like what you're interested in doing judging by your tire size. The reason for this is that the IFS frames of the older and Tacoma trucks are not arched properly for a solid axle up front and therefor, extra lift is normally used to compensate for this. Most SAS lifts are at least 5" with many being 6" or taller. That's a lot of lift for a Toyota truck. I was able to get mine down to 4" and that was the absolutely lowest I think one can go without cutting into the frame, which not easy or cost effective. I think the Tacoma's front frame arch is even worse than my truck, not to mention other issues with SASing a Tacoma that make it less cost effective or easy compared to the older trucks.

The other issue with SAS trucks is that it's almost impossible to add sway bars...at least to the front...and combined with high lifts, this leads to somewhat unstable platform for carrying heavy gear and especially roof top gear off road.

Now, this doesn't mean an SAS Toyota can't be used an expedition truck. I certainly drove my truck all over the place, at least around the Pacific Northwest and it worked, but it was a serious compromise. For us, we rarely tackled the extreme trails that it was more suited for, and so the compromise in highway handling wasn't really worth it.

I ended up going with Toyota Land Cruiser FZJ80, which allowed me to upgrade to a larger vehicle, with more power, larger and better sealed cargo space, but most importantly, most the off road advantages of my truck with its front and rear solid axles, but the comfort and handling of a modern SUV. Other than horrible gas mileage, I absolutely love it and I'm never looking back.

But if I were to built a Tacoma (which I almost did) I would do something like Scott's build and that means keeping the IFS, but giving it a minor lift and beefing it up as much as possible.

That set up will still go pretty much anywhere that anyone who isn't driving a dedicated trail rig would want to go. But most importantly, it drives and handles decently on the highway and dirt roads. Because let's face it. Most of us, spend the vast majority of our time on the highway and dirt roads, rather than extreme trails. So it only make sense that our "expedition" vehicles should be a reasonable compromise between good highway handling and off roadability.

Now, if you insist on solid axles and a Tacoma or like style truck as an expedition rig, I would recommend finding a rare '80-'85 factory solid axle truck or 4runner and putting a Tacoma motor in it. Not cheap, but you'd get the best of all worlds. Of course, you could also consider a Land Cruiser FZJ80 as they are coming down in price and would really give you the best of all worlds. So long as you don't mind worse gas mileage than a Hummer.

Good luck.

[Grim Reaper]

You going to rock crawl or trail ride? I was going to SAS my 4 Runner..even have an axle to do it. After I figured out I could fit 33x12.5s with no lift I am less inclined to do so.

Once I put the e-locker in it I can keep up pretty good with my buddy that runs a stock rubie unlimited 2 door. I actually have better ground clearence.

Now if I was wanting to do hard core rock crawling then yes I would be all over the SAS.

Run it for a while and see if you really feel you need a solid front axle.

As far as maintance....doesn't require anything special....fact is it is probably eaiser to work on the a toyota solid axle when you break something. If I blow a CV I can change it out in about 30 minutes.

Wash board roads are fun! Toy IFS soaks up most wash board great.

[DaveInDenver]

What's so bad about IFS? Of the Toyotas I've owned ('84 pickup, '78 FJ40 and this one) I think my '91 is the best so far. Admittedly the pickup was regular cab, no P/S. But it did have a 'Nest. The FJ40 was a constant battle to keep on the road (it needed a restoration). So my sample is really not fair. But my point is this, my truck is double locked and I've yet to go to a place that it won't take me there and I've been way over my head enough that I no longer push it. I don't have a winch and it's far too easy to get really, really stuck with lockers. My thought is (at least with the torsion bar IFS) that it's not rocket science and changing the truck from the stock configuration means you are opening it up to odd-ball steering issues or frame reliability. The All Pro style SAS looks to me like it will eventually break your frame, I dunno. But why do guy 'hate' IFS? I personally think IFS on a truck designed to go places makes sense, the long distance pavement and dirt roads scream IFS and a well designed one can flex well enough to hold it's own in more technical sections. We are not building rock crawlers anyway. I've broken a Birfield on the FJ40 and a CV axle on the truck and it's a whole lot less painful to switch the CV axles on my truck out. I've pressed the studs out of the drive flanges on the diff, replaced them with bolts. With the wheel of the broken CV turned all the way to the front steering stop, I can get the axle in and out in a few minutes, don't even have to take the wheel off. Do have to pop the hub cap off to pull the C-clip, but it's really a painless operation. In that sense IFS has an advantage in my mind over the solid axle.

[Scott Brady]

I think the important combination is IFS+Toyota (or Nissan). These trucks are built for sevier service.

I was a Jeep and Land Rover guy too, having owned ten solid axle trucks before buying my Tacoma (I did own a few IFS vehicles in there along the way, but for mild/wife duty) so I was pretty set on solid axle.

For overlanding, IFS has few compromises and more advantages, principally in handling and comfort over long distances. My truck can move across the desert almost effortlessly with the racing suspension I have installed compared to the solid axle vehicles.

So, I like my IFS Toyota, but would still prefer a TLC 78 Series if I could buy one ;)

[crawler#976]

Steve Scheafer has SAS'd a '99 Forerunner and kept the ride hieght reasonable by going spring under vs. spring over. He still clears 35's fine. If I was going to consider SAS'n my Taco, I'd go that route.

http://sonoransteel.com/

I have a SAS'd '87 P/U, and find that my '98 Taco will go 90% of the places I want to with much more comfort. Other than the extreme rock trails, the Taco does very, very well off highway - and that's on 31's.

[DaveInDenver]

Steve Scheafer has SAS'd a '99 Forerunner and kept the ride hieght reasonable by going spring under vs. spring over. He still clears 35's fine. If I was going to consider SAS'n my Taco, I'd go that route.
I've seen his 4Runner and I think he's done a fantastic job. Like you say, very well thought out.

[kcowyo]

I'd rather endure the "limitations" of IFS on a technical trail, than the harsh ride with a solid axle and leaf springs on the highway to that trail. Everything is a compromise.

Now if you could swap in an LC80 axle with coils, that would be a whole different animal. :chowtime:

[Dirty Harry]

I have a SAS'd '87 P/U, and find that my '98 Taco will go 90% of the places I want to with much more comfort. Other than the extreme rock trails, the Taco does very, very well off highway - and that's on 31's.

Similarly, I have a SAS'ed 86 pickup and a '98 4Runner, and the crawl ratio and fear of dented sheetmetal are the only things that cause me to chose the pickup over the 4Runner. Yes, I have broken CVs, but I have also broken parts in the solid front axle of the pickup.

For expedition use I much prefer the coilover IFS of the 4Runner, and as Brian mentioned it allows you to keep the overall height lower and handles better. If I had my mind set on a solid front axle I would just get an FZJ80 instead of trying to reinvent the wheel. I owned one of those too, and the 4Runner gives up nothing in terms of capability, however I will admit that the 4Runner does not have the same "bank vault" feel as the Land Cruiser.

[BajaTaco]

My thoughts are towards the last half of this article (http://bajataco.com/tacoma-platform.html). I pretty much echo the sentiments already conveyed here. The Tacoma IFS is designed really well and unless you are rock crawling on a regular basis, there isn't much good reason to get rid of it in favor of a solid axle.

[ntsqd]

I've owned an '84 x-cab yota (known as "Patch" b/c he is comprised of several vehicles) since '98. There have been times when I wished he was an IFS truck, but that being said I like the robustness of the LA and I don't give up much to the IFS race chasers I've worked with. That latter is likely due to the unkwn front lift springs (~3-4"), GM 65's on the rear, and the Bilsteins.
You can make a LA ride nice (Patch is a hint though not proof), but it takes development money and time. And at the end had you put that same effort into an IFS who knows what you'd have.

My advice would be to buy a truck that has the basic arrangement that you want, don't start such major mods. Working out the bugs of such things always takes longer than you planned and considerably more money as well.

[devinsixtyseven]

x2 what BT said.

If you go crawling around on difficult trails (7+ on a 10 scale), you will find yourself constantly in the alignment shop, there will be massive dents in the engine skid plate, you'll spin the wheels more, the tie rods are at more risk of breaking (usually you cannot upgrade the rack or rods), and with a front locker you're more likely to break front end parts because you can run Unobtanium axles if you want, but the CV joints will still be weak...particularly when one axle is trying to haul the front end up a ledge at maximum flex.

...That's all I can tell ya, I haven't swapped to a solid front axle yet, but I will since I like to tackle harder trails and I'm willing to sacrifice the ride quality of the IFS for the durability of a solid axle setup. It's just what I do, not necessarily what anyone else does.

Since you're looking at a Tacoma, you could get a long travel kit for the front and have a good compromise. It'll hold up much better on your Tacoma than it will on my Tundra, since Tundras use Tacoma running gear.

-Sean

[Winky]

Wow a big response and fast! I can't shake the idea that you can make a SA taco ride like 80 series or other newer model SA vehicle like a HD Ram. I may be way off base. I'm not thinking of reinventing the wheel just makeing something unique, not everythings has to be the same. I suppose I may be ignorant to the capabilities of an IFS taco.. anyone care to take me out and show me what they can do:) ?
Like I said expedition travel is my main focus but sometimes I do like to do technical trails. That sonoran steel link is a great find, I am going to get in touch with him and discuss some ideas.
Thanks for all the replies.. I still have a lot of planning to do to see if I am going to go through with this or just scrap it.

Josh

[Dirty Harry]

I suppose I may be ignorant to the capabilities of an IFS taco.. anyone care to take me out and show me what they can do:) ?


Where are you located? I'll take you out in my 4Runner and jump it and crawl it and everything in between if you are interested. I drove it from South Dakota to Moab last month, ran Hell's Revenge, jumped it in the dunes, then drove it another 800 miles to Reno.

If you have your heart set on the SAS, consider Off Road Solutions coilover solid axle swap (http://www.offroadsolutions.com/products/suspension.htm#coilover_system_description) . They are finishing up a Tacoma right now. If you are in Denver it is worth going for a test drive. With the leaf springs in the rear the vehicle is very well balanced and stable, plus ORS can assist you with spring rates and shock valving that will best suit your expedition travels.

[DaveInDenver]

Wow a big response and fast! I can't shake the idea that you can make a SA taco ride like 80 series or other newer model SA vehicle like a HD Ram. I may be way off base. I'm not thinking of reinventing the wheel just makeing something unique, not everythings has to be the same.

The differences between an 80 series and Taco are more than just having a live axle. The weight of a Cruiser goes a really long way towards making it ride the way it does. Solid axle mini trucks still ride like mini trucks, just that they can crawl better. As far as unique, sticking with a built IFS is the unique thing right now! Lots of places outside ExPo (i.e. YotaTech, Pirate, IH8MUD, etc.) the harder core IFS trucks are the oddballs.

[Winky]

Where are you located? I'll take you out in my 4Runner and jump it and crawl it and everything in between if you are interested. I drove it from South Dakota to Moab last month, ran Hell's Revenge, jumped it in the dunes, then drove it another 800 miles to Reno.

If you have your heart set on the SAS, consider Off Road Solutions coilover solid axle swap (http://www.offroadsolutions.com/products/suspension.htm#coilover_system_description) . They are finishing up a Tacoma right now. If you are in Denver it is worth going for a test drive. With the leaf springs in the rear the vehicle is very well balanced and stable, plus ORS can assist you with spring rates and shock valving that will best suit your expedition travels.

Right now I am in Ft. Stockton TX. I am heading back up north to Illinois at the end of the month. You're in NM?

[Dirty Harry]

Right now I am in Ft. Stockton TX. I am heading back up north to Illinois at the end of the month. You're in NM?

Sometimes. I am actually in Rapid City at the moment and the 4Runner is in Reno, but it changes on a regular basis. :) If you are going to be in Reno, Rapid, or Albuquerque let me know and I'll make sure to bring the 4Runner.

[crawler#976]

one other consideration...

I know Steve from Sonoran Steel - he's participated in all 5 of my annual DeSoto Mine trail rides.

For what he spent on his SAS'd Runner, you could buy a complete DeMello/Donahoe extended travel kit with Upper A-arms, rear 10 leaf Deavers, 7100 series rear Billy's, front and rear bumper from your choice of builder, a camper shell, a roof top tent, new wheels and tires, a winch and synthetic line, a hi-lift, a camp shower, a cook stove, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc.

As I recall his total cost ended up well over 8K - it's not cheap.

I know I've got over that in my beater as it sits right now, and it's no longer a viable rig for any sort of extended travel.

Nuther thing about SAS'n a rig - you will get bored doing "normal" trails. I started out with a '87 with a camper shell that would be used as an exploration type truck. That didn't last long...the first flop took care of that.

As you progress into more difficult challenges, the inevitable breakage starts to get very, very old, not to mention very, very expensive. After selling my tow rig and trailer I had to spend a tad under $2400.00 to get the rig streetable again.

[ntsqd]

Wow a big response and fast! I can't shake the idea that you can make a SA taco ride like 80 series or other newer model SA vehicle like a HD Ram. I may be way off base. I'm not thinking of reinventing the wheel just makeing something unique, not everythings has to be the same. I suppose I may be ignorant to the capabilities of an IFS taco.. anyone care to take me out and show me what they can do:) ?
Like I said expedition travel is my main focus but sometimes I do like to do technical trails. That sonoran steel link is a great find, I am going to get in touch with him and discuss some ideas.
Thanks for all the replies.. I still have a lot of planning to do to see if I am going to go through with this or just scrap it.

Josh
You can do that, BUT you will have a development curve. The odds of you getting it perfect right out of the box are slim to none. The kits made by various companies have hard core crawling in mind. Not sure how adaptable they're going to be to an Overland type application. By that I mean ride height, damper valving, mfg support, etc.
You'll be out there a bit from their experience. Whether they can adapt or not I've no idea. Usually when you're doing something like this you have to be the expert on what the goal is, and defer to their expertise on the various processes to get there.

[Winky]

I appreciate all the replies. Right now I have sent an email to many of the kit manufactors looking for thier input. Like I've said I am still just planning. I still have my 06 rubi sitting outside. Anyone looking to buy one??:) The 'learning curve' might be a lot of fun mixed in with a lot of headaches. In the end I hope to have a unique rig capable of travel cross country and tackling difficult trails on the weekend with my jeep buddies. Que sera, Sera.
Josh

[Martinjmpr]

If the question is "can" you do it, the answer is "yes." With enough money and effort, anything is possible. But for an expedition rig I would wonder whether the benefits of the SAS would outweigh the disadvantages of doing the conversion (which would not only be cost, but also the fact that you'd have to do a lot of fabricating, and that if one of those fabricated/jury rigged parts broke in the field, you'd have to try and make another one.)

I think some younger 4 wheelers, who grew up in the age of IFS, obsess a little too much about the supposed awesome-ness of SAS. My first 4 4wd vehicles were all SAS with leaf springs because back then that was all they had (FWIW: 1957 IHC Travelall, 1968 IHC Travelall, 1971 Chevy Blazer and 1985 Toyota PU.) One common thing about all of them was that they were horrible to drive on washboard roads, which we have a lot of in CO. When I got my first IFS 4wd vehicle (1990 Mistubishi Montero) I was amazed that I could finally run washboarded-dirt roads at 40mph without having to worry about losing control of the vehicle and/or vibrating off the side of the road.

Even the mighty HMMWV (the real one, not the silly H2 or H3) has 4-wheel independent suspension and those things can go almost anywhere.

I can understand why extreme rock-crawlers like SAS front and rear, just for the articulation, but personally I wouldn't want to put up with all the negatives associated with it just to get some more flex. You know, there's a reason why those awesome rock-buggies are usually seen riding in trailers along I-70 and not being driven!

However, if you really want to go the SAS route on a Tacoma, there is a whole forum over at the TTORA.org (http://www.ttora.org)web site dedicated to that very subject.

[shawkins]

If your going to go SAS on a Taco, use the All-Pro kit, you can get the lift down to 3" to 4" with it.

[toyrunner95]

you can solid axle swap anything as long as you have a couple beers and a saws all.

but honestly you dont absolutly need an sas for expedition camping work. i have tossed around the idea of swapping the ifs on a newer toyota alot of times but i keep comming to the conclusion that i dont really NEED to. the trails i have been on suggest that a solid axel is better, however; with that said they are just that. trails, not roads that lead to far off places. they are a short cut between a couple logging roads.

on the other hand there are many belifits, less moving parts, easy repairs, etc. and that i agree with, SO if you plan on doing a solid axle swap i believe that you would want a dana 44 or bigger with a left drive for 96 and newer models, or a toyota 8" for 95 and older models. if you get an 05 or newer it could take alot of work because so far i have only seen two, one personal and domello off road did one but they used a curry 9" in the front which is pretty stout.

personally if i was going to solid axle swap a truck i would do a 94-97 toyota, that later models espicaly because its pretty streight forward and dana 44s are a dime a dozen, but i would swap the rear as well just for symetry. for a 94 and 95 i would do it with 8" axles.
now then if you want an exedition truck, keep the ride height down, and get skid plates. this will keep the stability of the rig on off cambers but still allow you to go some awsome places, make sure the suspension is flexy, its better to have something that flexes well rather than some of these guys that compensate for unmentionables with 17 or 20 inch lifts of their fords (i mean come on guys, your not fooling anyone.) if your tires touch the ground, you have better traction, where as ifs, as demonstrated by the hummer, 4runner, and any other ifs vehicle, front tires like to lift, and quite easily.

those are my 2 cents.

[DaveInDenver]

Photos of truck from Yotatech showing IFS can flex pretty respectably. All but one of these trucks are running stock arms, although most of them do have ball joint spacers. One of them is running a Total Chaos suspension w/ 12" of wheel travel, that should pretty easy to spot.

[Boston Mangler]

Anyone ripping apart a Taco for an SAS, please contact me, i am in need of some IFS Parts for a friend!

Thanks

[Winky]

UPDATE:
I have gotten a lot of interesting replies from builders. Of course they are all convinced they are the only ones that could build it but I am getting some great ideas. I still don't know if I am going to go this route.. I don't even have the truck yet. When I leave the oilfields in the next couple of days I will be able to plan it better... I have a new moto though.. maybe even the name for this hypothetical build up- More Money Then Brains.:)

Cheers
Josh

[viter]

Anyone ripping apart a Taco for an SAS, please contact me, i am in need of some IFS Parts for a friend!

Thanks

make sure to check http://www.ttora.com if you ahven't yet, ifs parts from sas rigs come up quite often

[Boston Mangler]

make sure to check http://www.ttora.com if you ahven't yet, ifs parts from sas rigs come up quite often

Thanks

Been checking there very often with no luck finding anything LOCAL :(

Thanks though

[viter]

talking about sas, in terms of advantage of extra travel of a sas, technically you could get ~14" out of IFS with one of the long travel kits made for taco by total chaos or camburg and still retain 4wd, but it will be costly ~$3000.

also, why not get a 4dr jeep rubicon = more space than 2dr jeep and still solid axles, plus everything is familiar?

[detailbarn]

this was an interesting post to read and I have insight on both ends of the coin. I just got rid of my 2001 Double Cab Tacoma , traded for a 2006 Wrangler Unlimited but ultimately I'm replacing it with a Jeep Comanche and Jeep Cherokee. My reason for this change was mostly wanting solid axle vehicles, it's not that the Tacoma was a bad truck or that the IFS was bad but it had it's issues such as being able to work on it. I do all my own maintenance and most mods as well, I personally found that the IFS was not easy to work on and I couldn't do simple things like change wheel bearings , when they needed to be replaced it cost me just shy of $1000 plus parts and that was not at the dealer , dealers cost was closer to $2000. Yes just for front wheel bearings. So in the end it was ease of working on the solid axle and the availability of tougher components that drew me to the solid axle.

[viter]

talking about bearings - they are not serviceable in taco's and they usually last quite a long time so changing them is not something you'll do more than once or perhaps twice in your life probably (assuming you'll use the truck for ~150000 miles); however, if you do have to change them it is a pain to press them out and is not something you can do in the field unlike with some solid axles I guess. to be honest, pressing out the rear bearings out of the solid rear taco axle can be really hard too, so I guess it all depends on the axle. bearing failure is rather rare in taco's though (but it did happen to me once with the rear axle bearing, but I think it has something to do with me liking to drive thru deep water and mud a lot).

[detailbarn]

talking about bearings - they are not serviceable in taco's and they usually last quite a long time so changing them is not something you'll do more than once or perhaps twice in your life probably (assuming you'll use the truck for ~150000 miles); however, if you do have to change them it is a pain to press them out and is not something you can do in the field unlike with some solid axles I guess. to be honest, pressing out the rear bearings out of the solid rear taco axle can be really hard too, so I guess it all depends on the axle. bearing failure is rather rare in taco's though (but it did happen to me once with the rear axle bearing, but I think it has something to do with me liking to drive thru deep water and mud a lot).

true not a regular service item but when they go it's not easy , mine lasted until 175,000 and I got rid of the truck at 190,000 so I'm sure they would have lasted another 5 years had I kept the truck. I do about 25,000 miles a year so I really like serviceablity , and the dana 44 is just that. I'll have four of them between my two trucks so spare parts won't be an issue either.

[DaveInDenver]

I personally found that the IFS was not easy to work on and I couldn't do simple things like change wheel bearings , when they needed to be replaced it cost me just shy of $1000 plus parts and that was not at the dealer , dealers cost was closer to $2000. Yes just for front wheel bearings. So in the end it was ease of working on the solid axle and the availability of tougher components that drew me to the solid axle.
This isn't an IFS problem, but a late model truck problem. The IFS on older Toyotas has just about the identical configuration as the solid axle. In fact I had most of the spare parts left over from my FJ40 and I'd be hard pressed to tell a difference between the bearings, lock nuts and star washer. Dunno, I do just about everything on my trucks I like working on the IFS hubs, it's a lot less stinky and nasty, I've never had gear oil in the knuckles. The Taco and newer 4Runners have sealed bearings, replace the whole assembly every 10 years or whatever. It's painfully expensive, but it's a set and forget. No need to periodically repack bearings and check preload. It's a gotta be, gotta go world and we luddites are just getting run over, man. We have a '96 Civic for the DD and its got the same deal, cartridge hubs. They are expensive to replace, just like you found on your Taco. I'd think just about all manufacturers have gone this way, although I think the live axle hubs still use traditional bearings, so the Wrangler, Super Duty, etc. But that's probably about it.

[Dirty Harry]

I'd think just about all manufacturers have gone this way, although I think the live axle hubs still use traditional bearings, so the Wrangler, Super Duty, etc. But that's probably about it.

Super Dutys, Wranglers, Cherokees, etc use unit bearings that are not rebuildable and are expensive to replace, just like a Tacoma. Like you said Dave, it is a late model issue, not an IFS issue.

[DaveInDenver]

Super Dutys, Wranglers, Cherokees, etc use unit bearings that are not rebuildable and are expensive to replace, just like a Tacoma.
Wasn't aware of that. That's something I learned today.

[crawler#976]

talking about sas, in terms of advantage of extra travel of a sas, technically you could get ~14" out of IFS with one of the long travel kits made for taco by total chaos or camburg and still retain 4wd, but it will be costly ~$3000.



SAS'n a Taco will be more than that if done right...

I always here people say they've done a SAS for less than a grand. If they did, it's probably a hack job. A used axle needs to be rebuilt, regeared, and locked if it's gonna be used to it's potential, and that alone is well over a grand - even if the axle was free.

If you own a welder, thats great - if not, either you buy one or pay someone a lot to do it for you. My little 220V Mig was $850 out the door - in 2001.

You need a couple grinders and a dozen wheels.

I'm not trying to discourage you from doing what you want - I just don't want you to go into it without understanding all the financial ramifications. It's very, very costly to do it right the first time. It's a whole lot more to do it right the second time.

Mark

[BajaTaco]

It's very, very costly to do it right the first time. It's a whole lot more to do it right the second time.

HERE (http://www.watrd.com/swap/FOURBYCHEFSExpenses.php) is a good example of a parts lists from a swap done many years ago on a Tacoma. This doesn't include anything for labor. Thanks to Rob for keeping this info on his site.

HERE (http://www.watrd.com/swap/RobsExpenses.php) is another parts list (without prices)

[detailbarn]

Super Dutys, Wranglers, Cherokees, etc use unit bearings that are not rebuildable and are expensive to replace, just like a Tacoma. Like you said Dave, it is a late model issue, not an IFS issue.


the parts where not the problem , they only cost me $80 for the tacoma both sides. The labor was the killer they had to pressed out and in with a 20 ton press which of course the dealer had but very shops did. With the Jeep I can just pull the entire assembly off and slide a new one on.

[DaveInDenver]

the parts where not the problem , they only cost me $80 for the tacoma both sides. The labor was the killer they had to pressed out and in with a 20 ton press which of course the dealer had but very shops did. With the Jeep I can just pull the entire assembly off and slide a new one on.
Wow, a 20 ton press. That would be a huge PITA. Stuff like that just reassures me I made the right choice to rebuild the engine in my truck and keep it!

[Winky]

SAS'n a Taco will be more than that if done right...

I always here people say they've done a SAS for less than a grand. If they did, it's probably a hack job. A used axle needs to be rebuilt, regeared, and locked if it's gonna be used to it's potential, and that alone is well over a grand - even if the axle was free.

If you own a welder, thats great - if not, either you buy one or pay someone a lot to do it for you. My little 220V Mig was $850 out the door - in 2001.

You need a couple grinders and a dozen wheels.

I'm not trying to discourage you from doing what you want - I just don't want you to go into it without understanding all the financial ramifications. It's very, very costly to do it right the first time. It's a whole lot more to do it right the second time.

Mark
I appreciate the reality... I'm only going to live once.. I don't plan on leaving anything for my kids. I am leaning towards this build more and more just to make it work... ordinary is boring.

Cheers
Josh

[DaveInDenver]

I appreciate the reality... I'm only going to live once.. I don't plan on leaving anything for my kids. I am leaning towards this build more and more just to make it work... ordinary is boring.

It's so funny, there's a thread over at Yotatech started by tc here in Colorado. He wants to do a long travel IFS on his second gen 4Runner and people are riding him for being different and not doing a SAS. LOL!

[ntsqd]

Wow, a 20 ton press. That would be a huge PITA. Stuff like that just reassures me I made the right choice to rebuild the engine in my truck and keep it!
That doesn't strike me as all that odd. Granted it's not common, but I have a 20t press in my garage. Bought it & several other large tools when the vintage race car shop I used to work for decided to close it's doors. The racing engine machine shop I used to do fab work for has a 40t press. It's really cool when need to BEND something......
:)


It's so funny, there's a thread over at Yotatech started by tc here in Colorado. He wants to do a long travel IFS on his second gen 4Runner and people are riding him for being different and not doing a SAS. LOL!
Link plz. Irks me when people think SAS is the end-all, be-all answer to every application.

[DaveInDenver]

That doesn't strike me as all that odd. Granted it's not common, but I have a 20t press in my garage. Bought it & several other large tools when the vintage race car shop I used to work for decided to close it's doors. The racing engine machine shop I used to do fab work for has a 40t press. It's really cool when need to BEND something......

Hmm, I don't have a press. Needed one when I rebuilt the transmission in my FJ40, but $20 at the machine shop took care of that. Still, it strikes me as a pain if I need a press to just work on wheel bearings. Definitely makes doing a field repair out of the question, eh?


Link plz. Irks me when people think SAS is the end-all, be-all answer to every application.
http://www.yotatech.com/showthread.php?t=117733

[Winky]

It's so funny, there's a thread over at Yotatech started by tc here in Colorado. He wants to do a long travel IFS on his second gen 4Runner and people are riding him for being different and not doing a SAS. LOL!
That's because their primary interest is rock crawling... since mine is expedition travel a SAS is different.. it's all subjective.
Josh

[ntsqd]

http://www.yotatech.com/showthread.php?t=117733
Grazia!

[Kermit]

If IFS is so weak, then why do most of the Trophy Trucks, Class 1 Buggies, and Truggies...run IFS? I know most of them aren't 4WD, but, can reach speeds excessing over 150 mph.

This video is a fine example of the pounding their IFS can handle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dnOWRkIEDI&mode=related&search=

[Winky]

If IFS is so weak, then why do most of the Trophy Trucks, Class 1 Buggies, and Truggies...run IFS? I know most of them aren't 4WD, but, can reach speeds excessing over 150 mph.

This video is a fine example of the pounding their IFS can handle.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dnOWRkIEDI&mode=related&search=

It's all about what kind of wheeling you do... since I do like to ride trails rubicon...moab..etc.. SA is just better. How many trail rigs do you see with IFS? My main obstacle is makeing it street worthy for long expeditions so I can drive cross country and still wheel with the best of them and get home... Illinois is exactly close to any of the hot spots... I drive cross country to get anywhere.
cheers
Josh
P.S. I think some people are taking this personally. I'm not saying IFS is worthless.. it has its place. I'M NOT BASHING IFS.

[DaveInDenver]

How many trail rigs do you see with IFS?
Yeah, probably not many 'hard core' ones. No argument that a live axle is better for rock crawling. But slightly modified FJ Cruisers did tons of highway miles and still drove the trails at Rubithon, Cruise Moab and BHCC last year. The Trail Teams trucks were running stock suspension and drivetrains, they did have some, uh, non-stock protection (beyond the ARB bumpers) to address issues. Nothing crazy, but well placed skid plates that Toyota didn't put in place were needed. But none-the-less, they weren't outfitted with anything too exotic and they were tackling 4+ trails using the truck you'd buy from the dealer with just BFG ATs on them. I got to watch the FJCs at the Spike last year, pretty capable little trucks out of the box. They lack ground clearance, 'bout it. They are not hard core rock crawlers, but I guess what I'm saying is I think the idea of an expedition vehicle is really open to your personal interpretation. I don't necessarily think of a truck that can tackle Pritchett Canyon as an expedition vehicle, even if it can drive there itself. I see a truck that can carry lots of junk over long miles and still not get stuck getting to the destination as an expedition truck. The pursuit is getting someplace, not in the obstacle itself. What each person's vision of the right truck is different, I dunno.

[Winky]

Just as I don't think because a vehicle that can tackle Pritchett canyon means it has to be a hardcore wheeler. I still don't get what all the fight is about. I want to build a well rounded vehicle. I prefer SFA for capability and simplicity. My build objective is to convert a 'newer' (01-04) taco into a vehicle capable of extreme trails while still ride in comfort on long trips to the baja.. alaska... or anywhere else I want to go. I see going to a SFA as the best way to acomplish this.. Getting their is the obstacle in most expedition travels... whether THERE is a remote lake or camping spot... or up the side of a mountain... I want to be able to do it all. Let's start converting old fj-40s or 80s.. or jeeps to IFS as it appears SA is to 'hardcore' for expedition travel.

[Westy]

Speaking of FJs and Moab...

A few weekends ago I ran Pritchett and we had an FJ Cruiser on 285 MTR's with us. He made it through with zero damage. Of course the strap and winch were used several times but those are impressive 4x4s to say the least. Pritchett is no joke either, especially this year.

Toyota did well once again...too bad it didnt include a 4:1 tcase option though.

Rock pile bypass...
http://www.fjcruiserforums.com/forums/attachments/picture-media-post/12426d1180246113-moab-last-days-may-p1000840.jpg

[Dirty Harry]

If IFS is so weak, then why do most of the Trophy Trucks, Class 1 Buggies, and Truggies...run IFS? I know most of them aren't 4WD, but, can reach speeds excessing over 150 mph.


Saying the IFS on a Tacoma is the same as what is run on Trophy Trucks is like saying that Rosie O'Donnell and Salma Hayek are both women. The really don't have that much in common. :)

I (like Crawler#976) have a truck that will do hardcore trails, and without a tow rig I originally hoped to set it up for something that could do everything. What I found was that it just isn't that easy to do. I am not saying that it is impossible, but my IFS 4Runner is WAY more comfortable on the pavement and dirt roads, and I would still feel confident taking it over Pritchett or the Rubicon. I don't see the small gain in capability worth the huge expense and loss in comfort from a solid front axle. But that is just my opinion.

[DaveInDenver]

There is no one right solution. I think the discussion was about converting an IFS to a live axle. It is not simple and is not cheap. In an ideal world we'd all have the choice of vehicles and I'd guess about 100% of us would buy a HZJ78, Defender 110 or some other vehicle that's been proven. But we don't have that luxury. So to take something that works and works well, like a Taco, and go about redesigning it is not about reliability and simplicity. You will be looking for parts at 4 different stores, there is less scavenging parts from other trucks, you will be tweaking camber and castor angles, touching up broken welds. Scott, Chris and tons of other people here have taken Tacomas with a few changes and there is pretty much no where they won't go. I just think you've seen too many Petersen publications. There are stock SUVs and pickups going up 90% of all the trails in Colorado, even with open diffs, no lift and 31" tires. The rest have obstacle bypasses or you have to mostly go out of your way to find anyway. You asked the original question, people are just giving you opinions.

[Westy]

Just as I don't think because a vehicle that can tackle Pritchett canyon means it has to be a hardcore wheeler. I still don't get what all the fight is about. I want to build a well rounded vehicle. I prefer SFA for capability and simplicity. My build objective is to convert a 'newer' (01-04) taco into a vehicle capable of extreme trails while still ride in comfort on long trips to the baja.. alaska... or anywhere else I want to go. I see going to a SFA as the best way to acomplish this.. Getting their is the obstacle in most expedition travels... whether THERE is a remote lake or camping spot... or up the side of a mountain... I want to be able to do it all. Let's start converting old fj-40s or 80s.. or jeeps to IFS as it appears SA is to 'hardcore' for expedition travel.

I think you have a good plan. Nothing wrong with a solid axle expedition vehicle. Heck, I've seen desert trucks built with solid axles...anything is possible. A coil sprung, or coilover SAS would give you the best of both worlds. The debate between IFS and solid axle is never ending...everyone has their own needs and preferences. Personally I prefer the solid axle as well for the strength it offers not only in the axles but the steering as well.

[Winky]

There is no one right solution. I think the discussion was about converting an IFS to a live axle. It is not simple and is not cheap. In an ideal world we'd all have the choice of vehicles and I'd guess about 100% of us would buy a HZJ78, Defender 110 or some other vehicle that's been proven. But we don't have that luxury. So to take something that works and works well, like a Taco, and go about redesigning it is not about reliability and simplicity. You will be looking for parts at 4 different stores, there is less scavenging parts from other trucks, you will be tweaking camber and castor angles, touching up broken welds. Scott, Chris and tons of other people here have taken Tacomas with a few changes and there is pretty much no where they won't go. I just think you've seen too many Petersen publications. There are stock SUVs and pickups going up 90% of all the trails in Colorado, even with open diffs, no lift and 31" tires. The rest have obstacle bypasses or you have to mostly go out of your way to find anyway. You asked the original question, people are just giving you opinions.

Take it easy here bud. Different strokes remember. I have no problem with a challenge.. life is a series of challenges... no need to question my intentions with a public comment like 'read to many petersens magazines'. BTW I don't subscribe to any Petersens publications... I'm more of a A4WDMonthly guy...
Josh

[big sky trapper]

tell ya what Ill trade ya an all ready to go " sas'd" toy for a equally built stock taco....

[Winky]

what do you mean by equally built? I suppose you are talking about a factory SA toyota?

[Winky]

Rock pile bypass...
http://www.fjcruiserforums.com/forums/attachments/picture-media-post/12426d1180246113-moab-last-days-may-p1000840.jpg

That's a great picture... got anymore? I test drove an FJ not too long ago and really liked it... the blind spot was a bit annoying.. but definetly a well thought out vehicle.

[big sky trapper]

Ill trade ya my 84 ready to go exploring truck for your taco all other mods equal without the sas. (http://expeditionportal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4917)

readers ride #245

[Winky]

dig the paint job... very utiliarian:) .

[DaveInDenver]

Take it easy here bud. Different strokes remember. I have no problem with a challenge.. life is a series of challenges... no need to question my intentions with a public comment like 'read to many petersens magazines'. BTW I don't subscribe to any Petersens publications... I'm more of a A4WDMonthly guy...
Josh
Hey now. :-/ That was is in very bad taste, I'm honestly sorry I said it. But it's like a lot of things, the majority of people are not like in the magazines and that wasn't meant to say anything but just because you see built rigs on the covers of stuff should not indicate that you /need/ that stuff. The bulk of people throw a set of ATs on, strap down the cooler and have a big old time. Us knuckleheads who throw money hand over fist at our trucks I really think are the ones who don't get it sometimes.

[Winky]

Us knuckleheads who throw money hand over fist at our trucks I really think are the ones who don't get it sometimes.

It's a disease.


No Worries:) .
Josh

[shahram]

I know this may be stirring the pot or bringing in a non-sequitur, but if you're dead set on...

a) a Toyota

b) a pickup

c) solid front axle

...you could always pick up an 80-series Land Cruiser and do a pickup bed conversion on it, a la the Slee Offroad "Vlakvark" (http://www.sleeoffroad.com/technical/vlakvark/vlakvark_main.htm). You'd be getting a tried and true overlanding platform, big carrying capacity, and mad props from pretty much everyone on this board! I've seen guys sink serious dough into SAS'd vehicles. It's not cheap, and it comes with a whole host of new issues--constantly playing catch-up with breaking parts.

It's possible that you might get away with buying a used 80 Series and building an LC pickup conversion for a comparable price to a SAS'd Tacoma, with all the requisite bells and whistles you'd need to get the SAS'd Taco running reliably. Plus, everything below the body on the Land Cruiser would be standard "out-of-the-box" parts, easily serviced, easily replaced.

Something to think about, anyway...good luck with whatever you do.

[Kermit]

Saying the IFS on a Tacoma is the same as what is run on Trophy Trucks is like saying that Rosie O'Donnell and Salma Hayek are both women. The really don't have that much in common. :)


Too damn funny...

I was just wondering....why...:D I think was comparing highend IFS to highend SAS. I don't always right down what is going on in my jumble of a mind.

No offense to anyone, but rock crawling just ain't my thang...

I rather be strapped into a Class 1 buggy skating across the desert.

And this is me beating that dead horse.....Other than serious rock crawling, I don't see why one would go through the trouble, time and expense SASing a Tacoma for expedition use. Just to have maybe a little more reliable front end. Seems like the money and effort could go into other items...like a gas powered blender and such....:p

But...everyone is different...yadda yadda ya....:)

[viter]

That's a great picture... got anymore? I test drove an FJ not too long ago and really liked it... the blind spot was a bit annoying.. but definetly a well thought out vehicle.

not his pictures, but still an FJ...
http://tankota.net/calico07/calico04.jpg
http://tankota.net/calico07/calico10.jpg
http://tankota.net/calico07/calico13.jpg
this is an FJ cruiser built by donahoe racing - it one Baja 250 in its class this year, finished second I think in baja 500 just a couple weeks ago, has long travel 4wd ifs, and is very happy rockcrawling or racing baja

donahoe racing is really cool I think for keeping 4wd on their race vehicles and using them not just for racing!

not pushing the IFS on you (I'll be very interested to see what you do with a SAS), but just since you mentioned about how you liked an FJ...

[Dirty Harry]

Did you take those photos Viter? They are very nice!

[ntsqd]

Being intimately familiar with that canyon, Odessa Canyon @ Calico, they are a bit tilted...........
The floor of the slot is tilted, but not that much. This pic being in roughly the same spot as that last pic:
http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u196/ntsqd/Pontiac1.jpg

Never the less, Dylan is a sharp guy. We started out at just about the same time, he at SAW and I at Wilwood. I've come across him over in Doran Cyn. in the 'peanut gallery' & we've kibitz'd about the line someone took or whatever when he wasn't spotting one of his group thru that rock garden.

[ChuckB]

I know this may be stirring the pot or bringing in a non-sequitur, but if you're dead set on...

a) a Toyota

b) a pickup

c) solid front axle

...you could always pick up an 80-series Land Cruiser and do a pickup bed conversion on it, a la the Slee Offroad "Vlakvark" (http://www.sleeoffroad.com/technical/vlakvark/vlakvark_main.htm). You'd be getting a tried and true overlanding platform, big carrying capacity, and mad props from pretty much everyone on this board! I've seen guys sink serious dough into SAS'd vehicles. It's not cheap, and it comes with a whole host of new issues--constantly playing catch-up with breaking parts.

It's possible that you might get away with buying a used 80 Series and building an LC pickup conversion for a comparable price to a SAS'd Tacoma, with all the requisite bells and whistles you'd need to get the SAS'd Taco running reliably. Plus, everything below the body on the Land Cruiser would be standard "out-of-the-box" parts, easily serviced, easily replaced.

Something to think about, anyway...good luck with whatever you do.

I believe is was recently for sale too...

(edit) BAM! http://expeditionportal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6090&highlight=slee

[BajaTaco]

Josh, you know how to get a good discussion going :)

Some points for all of us to keep in mind:

1. There are many ways to skin a cat.

2. In the realm of off-highway vehicle projects, it is unlikely you will ever be able to multi-task without compromises of one kind or another.

3. There are likely just as many SA expedition vehicles exploring the globe as there are IFS. Overall, neither concept is superior to the other, they just have different attributes.

4. You must remember to follow your heart and do what you enjoy. As long as you do that, no one should fault you for it.

In my opinion, I think doing a SA conversion or a LT-IFS conversion on a Tacoma is kind of like adding mud-terrain tires or something crazy like XZL's to your ride. Yea they are inefficient and noisy on the highway, but they sure are fun in the dirt. It all gets back to compromises.

In this case, I think Josh has wisely solicited opinions from an expedition/overland based forum, and as a result he probably has had more info to make an informed decision. It seems to me like he has considered the situation at great length and is satisfied with his original plan. So I say - go for it! We can all learn something valuable from his experiences if he is kind enough to share them with us after he uses his SA Tacoma for some trips that reflect what we all enjoy here at ExPo.

[viter]

Did you take those photos Viter? They are very nice!
I wish I could take nice photos!
these are by tankota - http://tankota.net

[DaveInDenver]

Yanking this thread from the depths... Some stock (you know, more or less) FJ Cruiser pictures from Cruise Moab '06. Keep in mind that these are Trail Team guys driving these, so they are pretty dang good drivers.

[DenCo40]

First time I have read this thread...Lots of good interesting stuff here. I have learned over the past 20 years of off roading and several different vehicles that having the best off road/expedition truck boils down to money and opinion. In this case some people prefer the ride of IFS and some want a solid axle for strength and abilities. Both have drawbacks both have some advantages. Until someone comes up with the perfect suspension this will be the case...

[devinsixtyseven]

I hadn't seen this thread in a while...

Kermit! You're not helping. :hehe:

That video brought a tear to my eye...now you've got me wondering if I shouldn't have gone 73" on the new rear axle, so as to accomodate the width of an LT kit in the front. :smiley_drive: I had perma-grin watching all those glassed fullsizes float the whoops.

Where's Josh? Progress pics?

-Sean

*edit* I went and scanned Troy & Molly's LT thread on Yotatech...there are a lot of kids (I am certain they are kids, 16yos with 40yrs experience) who either spend all their time on BV Carnage and similar buggy-only, competition rockcrawling courses and seem to think that's all CO has to offer, or who flat out just don't know what they're talking about. I'm looking forward to seeing Josh's expedition-style SAS as much as I want to see Troy & Molly's LT rig on the rocks here in CO.

[BigAl]

As I read thru the first 3-4 pages of this thread I get the impression that most feel you are giving up ride quality by going SAS. Forget all the other advantages/disadvantages. A properly set up solid axle suspension can be plenty cushy. I am SOA on stock full size wagoneer front spings. My jeeps handles the pavement great, stiff in the corners, tracks straight, doesn't rattle my teeth. I just set up a longarm solid axle on a cherokee and that thing is a cadilac. I'm not saying solid axle is better than IFS, but I wouldn't rule it out for ride quality. You just have to make sure it's set up right.

[ntsqd]

I agree that a SA can be made to work and ride fairly nice, but for the work of cutting out an IFS & replacing it you could easily have a better ride than is possible with an SA.
Put another way, if ride quality and speed over the rough stuff are the goals, then for the equal amounts of $$$ & work the IFS will always be ahead.

Were it reasonable to do I'd own the only (?) IFS converted '84 Mini (WITH an 8" diff, thank you very much). As it is I'm resolved to making the SA work as best as I can.

All comes down to personal prefs and goals.

FWIW I must admit to taking comments like "handles great" with a grain of salt. I've ridden in a couple "handles great" trucks or seen them on the road and they were a far cry from my describing them as such. I do not want to offend anyone, but this is a very, very subjective thing. Coming from vintage and current road racing employment my idea of what this means apparently is radically different than what others think this means.

[Arivalsend]

I appreciate the reality... I'm only going to live once.. I don't plan on leaving anything for my kids. I am leaning towards this build more and more just to make it work... ordinary is boring.

Cheers
Josh

Hey I am with you all the way Josh. I think that while there may be a variety of reasons to not convert over to SAS, there are a good many reasons to do so. I would go with what you really want on this. You only get to do a build once and then its over and we all get the itch to start again or go another way with it. Sounds like you have given it some thought and it is what you want. Good luck and keep the rest of us jealous bums posted:D

[taco chaser]

As I read thru the first 3-4 pages of this thread I get the impression that most feel you are giving up ride quality by going SAS. Forget all the other advantages/disadvantages. A properly set up solid axle suspension can be plenty cushy. I am SOA on stock full size wagoneer front spings. My jeeps handles the pavement great, stiff in the corners, tracks straight, doesn't rattle my teeth. I just set up a longarm solid axle on a cherokee and that thing is a cadilac. I'm not saying solid axle is better than IFS, but I wouldn't rule it out for ride quality. You just have to make sure it's set up right.:iagree: .

[maxama10]

I didn't read much of this thread but here are my experiences.

We had a 2006 Jeep Unlimited. 2" BB lift and 32 muds. Rode like ****. Could barely stand the drive on the highway.

We ended up selling it. :ar15: :safari-rig:

In comparison my 07 Taco is awesome, although ride quality did go down when I replaced the stock P tires to a 10ply LT mud.

[Winky]

Funny this thread gets brought back!

Taco Chaser your build looks amazing and is pretty much what I want to do.
Well the first step is complete, I just bought an '02 DC TRD Taco. I am going to keep paying on it until I own more and then go crazy building it to suit my WANTS. That may be some time off though. Right now I am going to stick with just doing armour, and slight easily reversible suspension mods.

I am loving this truck and look forward to many miles of adventure and exploration... and to a lesser degree my daily commute:p .

Cheers,
Josh

[Big-A]

Being that I have sat on both sides of the fence I can say from experience that I would much rather have a capable "built" rig (which I have) that I can trust should when enjoying offroad excursions miles from civilization.

I am in no way better than the built/trail ready rigs here . But I have an extreme confidence in all of my trucks capabilities. Doing a solid axle conversion has taught me every aspect of four wheeling from "ohh my gawd, I am going to die here" to mild exploring offroad with family enjoying the simple things in life.

My ride isnt compromised, in fact I think it performs better on the road than it did with my harsh Sway Away coilovers and IFS.

I am new here and from what I gathered in my short time frequenting this forum people seem to shun the "hardcore" four wheeler just becuase our rigs are built. Its not always about extreme rock crawling, or being crazy....... sometimes it's about just getting out and enjoying what the good lord has provided while I can on this earth with friends and family! Why not have a capable rig that you know will safely get you and your family to your destination!

[Green96D1]

[QUOTE=Big-A]sometimes it's about just getting out and enjoying what the good lord has provided while I can on this earth with friends and family!

I agree 1000%.




Having a good friend with a IFS 86 yota pickup It's highly capable.

[taco chaser]

Funny this thread gets brought back!

Taco Chaser your build looks amazing and is pretty much what I want to do.
Well the first step is complete, I just bought an '02 DC TRD Taco. I am going to keep paying on it until I own more and then go crazy building it to suit my WANTS. That may be some time off though. Right now I am going to stick with just doing armour, and slight easily reversible suspension mods.

I am loving this truck and look forward to many miles of adventure and exploration... and to a lesser degree my daily commute:p .

Cheers,
Josh Thanks Josh, if you have any questions, feel free to PM.:beer: :beer: