Synthetic winch rope

[Aubrey]

Sorry if this has been answered before ....could not find it though.

Synthetic winch rope ... any good? Know the strength is spot on and better than wire rope, carefull with dirt on it bt but main concern, how does it handle extended exposure to harsh UV radiation (like what we have in Africa). EXpected life span?

Thank you for your thoughts in advance.

[cruiseroutfit]

I will relay my comments from a similar thread (different forum)

I have never seen a wire rope break, I hope I never do as I have seen plenty of pics... However I have seen several synthetic ropes break... enough that I continue to run steel. There are places for both of them by all means, but for the type of stuff I do, I don't think the synthetic would hold up too long.

The synthetics that I have seen break were all showing signs prior, they do not fair well against rocks, trees, etc IMHO. I have also seen them "melt" to the drum to the point they couldn't be unwrapped.

It really depends on the places you intend to use them... for a self-recovery setup, go syntehtic as it is safer. For a multi-purpose (move rocks, trees, roll over rigs, winch "around" corners, etc... I prefer the steel. However, I have vowed to try a synthetic on my rig (we have run them on comp rigs for the past couple seasons).

With the wire rope, it is all about maintainance... as I mentioned, I have never seen one break, but I have seen some horrible shape ones still in use (kinks, frays, etc)

[Nullifier]

Mine is 2 years pld and had a hellasish work out last month. I now some florida rigs that have had it for 5 years and no problems. I doubt the uv is worse in africa then Florida.

[Aubrey]

In 18 years of off-roading, I have used my winch once for myself. Many times for others in the party ..... with my suspension setup and ARB's front and rear, few things to worry about when accompanied by std. LandRovers.

I unwind the steel rope every six months and wash with a warm, soap water solution, rinse with clean water and allow to dry. Lately I spray a thin layer of chain wax (wax we use on quad chains) and let it dry. Not oily and gives good rust protection .... (found if I spray whole quad before I hit the coatsal areas, no rust afterwards)

As I would have to import, making winch rope around the US$ 290 vs US$ 90 for wire .....guess I'll have to wait a little longer.

Thanx for your replies.

[Colorado Ron]

I have both. Front is rope and rear is wire. I really like the rope, as it doesnt kink and no worry of small pieces of metal goin thru the glove and stabbin me. But I still dont trust it 100%. Thats why I use wire in the rear.

[UncleChris]

Just swapped out my wire rope for synthetic last night.(5/16X125, $205 at OKOffroad)

Much easier to handle than the wire and since I am not looking to use it for anything other than recovery I think it will fit the bill.

Note though, with my ARB bumper, I was not able to use a hawse fairlead. The ARB is designed for a roller, and if I used a hawse it would scrape against the edges of the bumper. Had to pick up some delrin rollers. It came with about a 10' abrasion resistant sleeve.

Will let you know how it fares.

[ldivinag]

tip:

buy either steel or rope in a short length. like 50 feet. then buy an extension. rememeber, your winch likes it when there are less wraps on the drum. just keep a minimum 5 wraps, like what warn recommends...

[michaelgroves]

Synthetic is better than steel cable in almost all respects. (I am referring to "proper" UHMWPE ropes, not webbing or other types of synthetic that you sometimes see on winches).

Advantages:

Safer - harmless if it breaks
Safer - frayed steel cable will rip your hands
Stronger (size for size)
Lighter - this is a big one for expeditions
Easier to handle - makes complex rigging and re-rigging much quicker
Doesn't damage itself when criss-crossed on the drum
Can be spliced if it breaks
Doesn't rust


Disadvantages:

Expensive
Vulnerable to cutting and abrasion - care needed when rigging
Apparent softness makes users forget basic winch safety (gloves, hands clear etc.)
Unsuitable for hot winches - if the drum gets very hot (some winches use the drum to dissipate heat), the rope can melt


Obviously, there are circumstances under which steel is better - for example if you can't avoid chafing, or you have a hot winch (in which case the synthetic option doesn't exist).

Unless it gets snagged, cut or melted, synthetic rope will take much more tension than steel cable of the same diameter, without breaking. More importantly, if it does break, there are no lethal ends flying around.

I've had Amsteel Blue synthetic on my winch for 4 years now, and it's seen a lot of action. I am careful with it, and it is undamaged.

My 2p worth!

M...

[Scott Brady]

Great feedback Michael.

The key is proper rigging and avoiding pulling the cable into the ground.

Winchline.com is a good source, and they have the new ultra-light delrin roller fairleads, etc.

[BajaTaco]

FWIW, the melting syndrome commonly referred to in a lot of "synthetic vs. wire" discussions is only true for the common UHMWPE. The UHMWPE synth winch line (like Amsteel blue) is susceptible to heat damage, but there is also a Technora aramid fiber rope that has been around for years now, with a high heat threshold. X-Line is one of the brands that uses this type of rope.

"X-Line™ ... has a decomposition temperature of 932°F, and can be used at 400°F for long periods of time. Even at 490°F, it maintains more than half of its tensile strength that was measured at room temperature. This is 3 times better than UHMWPE fibers currently in use and has been a major concern by winch manufactures regarding the use of fiber ropes."

HERE (http://www.4x4wire.com/reviews/oro_xline02/) is a review article explaining it a little more.

Bottom line is that each type of synth rope has it's advantages/disadvantages when matched against the other, but heat doesn't need to be a factor any more really. I believe MasterPull line and others are now using a heat-shield sleeve for the first few wraps on the drum, so even the UHMWPE ropes are safe. Ramsey is using the Technora stuff. If I were buying synth line as a replacement for my wire rope, I would just make sure that I bought either the Technora type, or UHMWPE with the shielding on it. No biggie :)

[bigreen505]

I'll take what Chris wrote a step further, though I probably should not have. Synthetic winch line is just standard run of the mill high-tech, single braid sailboat line, which in some cases is just repurposed from fishing boats. Fisheries Supply, Annapolis Performance Sailing and Layline, just to name a few, all have several types of line that will work well, usually about $1.50/ft - $1.80/ft depending on size. Amsteel Blue is good (which is very different from Amsteel -- probably not ideal for this application), Lightning Rope, Ultrex, D12, Technora, AS-78 (aka Dynex Dux 75), etc., all could work well. Stay away from PBO as it is allergic to UV. I would also stay away from Vectran unless it is blended with spectra/Dyneema because, while it is more UV stable and stronger than Dyneema, it does not handle chafe well.

I think the heat issue may be a bit over stated. If you are concerned, have a sleeve made to cover the first wrap of the drum with MGP Nomex Cover Only (http://www.apsltd.com/Tree/d108000/e106654.asp) as it will absorb more heat than a cordura sleeve (which is absolute king for chafe protection). If you are really paranoid, figure out how much wire you need for one wrap of the drum and have that length of wire spliced into a synthetic rope so you have wire for the first 20' and synthetic for the next 80'.

Also, as Chris pointed out, each line has its strengths and achilles heels and you need to know as much about the different options and how to work around specific compromises before you buy. For example, Dyneema (Amsteel et. al.) degrade under high heat and exposure to UV light, but the line is slippery allowing it to handle chafe well -- remember chafe means both external (on a rock) and internal (line fibers against line fibers). Aramid (Kevlar, Technora, to some degree Vectran) is pretty strong and impervious to everything but cannot handle any chafe well (external as well as internal) and it does not degrade slowly, it just blows up (edit -- also not stable in the presence of solvents, so be careful about spilling engine fluids on it). This is why a lot of new lines are a blend of fibers, like Dyneema and Vectran -- Vectran can handle the high loads while the Dyneema reduces internal chafe thereby significantly raising breaking loads and allowing a smaller diameter line.

Lots of options, and while synthetic line is relatively new to the off-road world, it is old hat in the marine industry and a lot of the problems have already been thought through. You just have to ask the right questions to the right people, I'm just suggesting that perhaps in this one instance, your local 4x4 shop is not the right people to ask.

[michaelgroves]

You just have to ask the right questions to the right people, I'm just suggesting that perhaps in this one instance, your local 4x4 shop is not the right people to ask.

Good advice! Many of the 4x4 places try to brand their ropes too heavily (make it uniquely special, charge a higher price), even though they just buy it from a wholesaler, and cut and splice it into winch lines. Then the information they provide tends to be incomplete, eg. quoting average tensile strength rather than minimum breaking stength, and failing to mention possible weaknesses such as abrasion and UV resistance. Sometimes they don't even divulge the manufacturer, so it's impossible to get the full information. I have a sneaking suspicion that some resellers exaggerate the specifications of the rope too - other things being equal, consumers will (quite logically) choose an 9000kg rope over an 8000kg one, even if they have a 4000kg winch. Since they will never break either rope, there is every temptation for the reseller to overstate the specs. After all, even if the rope DOES break, it will be under abusive conditions, so the last few thousand kilos hardly matters.

[vanguard]

consumers will (quite logically) choose an 9000kg rope over an 8000kg one, even if they have a 4000kg winch. Since they will never break either rope, there is every temptation for the reseller to overstate the specs. After all, even if the rope DOES break, it will be under abusive conditions, so the last few thousand kilos hardly matters.
It's worth noting that a snatch block can help you create loads far greater than your winch is rated for so if you plan to use one (or more) of them you could need a serious rope.

[Gear]

Just installed a synthetic line on my Warn 9.5Ti winch. Do I need to put it under a load to spool it on. Or just simple hand feed it on.

Thanks

[mountainpete]

Just installed a synthetic line on my Warn 9.5Ti winch. Do I need to put it under a load to spool it on. Or just simple hand feed it on.

Thanks

According to my understanding of the instructions that came with my new line, the first number of wraps should be very tight, after that it can be a hand feed as long as it doesn't get too "puffy" on the drum.

Pete

[flyingwil]

That is correct... it should be put on "under moderate" load. Pending brand and mounting attachment, some manufactures recomend installing by attaching the winch to an anchor and spooling it under the load of the rolling vehicle in nutral on a flat surface, while others say hand tight. It depends on the eye attachmant to the winch drum.

[ntsqd]

It's worth noting that a snatch block can help you create loads far greater than your winch is rated for so if you plan to use one (or more) of them you could need a serious rope.
The tension in the line is the same as the max pull of the winch regardless of how many blocks you use. It's not intuitive, but it is the truth.

[Halboo]

Synthetic is better than steel cable in almost all respects. (I am referring to "proper" UHMWPE ropes, not webbing or other types of synthetic that you sometimes see on winches).

Advantages:
Safer - harmless if it breaks

I don't know where you heard that but it's not true.
Twice during my Navy years I saw serious damage done by synthetic lines which had parted.
It ain't as dangerous as a busted steel cable, which I've also seen, but you still wouldn't want to be in it's way if it snaps.

[ntsqd]

In my experiments with the 1/4" Amsteel I saw evidence that it does contain some energy, and therefore does indeed snap back. As stated, not like steel cable can, but it does happen.

The single failure in actual winching that I've seen (over a sharp rock & the sleeve slipped, parted b4 the load could be let off) the presense of a jacket on the line caused it to simply drop to the ground. It might have recoiled a foot at the most.

[paulj]

I've wondered about using synthetic winch rope or extension with a hand winch like a come-along or hiLift jack. I balk at the idea of carting along 50' of heavy chain.

But there seem to be two issues:
- whether the synthetic has low enough stretch
- whether there is a way of adjusting the starting and incremental length.

I once saw a picture of someone like Bill Burke using a chain knot to shorten a line. There are some sliding knots that might be used to grab the line are different points.

paulj

[ntsqd]

I've no worries about the stretch. We moved an 8k lbs truck (in park & wheels chocked) with the 1/4" stuff b4 it broke. (Pulled on it with an 8274.) I would eyeballically estimate the stretch to be at or under 1%

One of the goals of my experiment with the 1/4" stuff was to find out if any of the various climbing knots that I know of would work on that type of line. They won't, at least none of medium-large catalog of knots that I'm familiar with would live.
Basically a knot's bends are too tight and they create stress risers in the line. It would appear that the stress takes the form of very localized heat when under load. The parting points looked like they'd seen a propane torch and they were always from inside one of the knots.

A splice, even a simple lateral weave splice (picture the Redart (http://www.redart.com/)Super Strap), is the only way it will not fail under load.

[SEREvince]

FWIW there are companies that offer "combination" winch lines that offer the heat resitance of the aramid on the drum and the cost saving of the amsteel for the bulk of the length.

As far as UV resistance, as was stated earlier that these lines were made for marine applications, which probably is the harshest evironment possible as far UV exposure.

I'll probably throw a cover on mine, just to keep the road grime off.

[craig]

Lots of interesting info here. A few thoughts popped into my head as I read through the varying replies:

- The reason rope is generally safer than cable is because it stretches less than cable. It would be better, not worse, for use with a hand winch. Chain would be the best though.

- winchline.com now sells a really big rock strap that is very low stretch. This might make a nice lightweight substitute for the heave chain we are all carrying around.

- Rope stores *very* little energy. Most of the time the energy gets stored in the other components of the rigging. The tree strap being the most common "stretchy" item.

- I've almost been decapitated by a cable. I was near a rope when it broke recently. Hands down, the cable was way way way scarier. Use the same caution you do with cable with rope, and you'll be the safest yet.

- winchline.com is owned by a marine netting company and they know the line characteristics very well.

- Our group did a tech session at winchline.com last month and you can tie a knot if it is the right type. In fact, one of our club members is in the Coast Guard and he tied a rope on a recent snow run and it held for many more pulls that day. The key is to find a knot that doesn't have a lot of kinks in it.

- Re-splicing is really easy. Read the doc on the winchline.com website and you won't have to worry about tying a knot.

- A regular old knot that kinks the rope decreases its strength by 50% or more.

- Worm drive winches run a lot cooler than planetary winches

-

[ntsqd]

FWIW the knot I used, the "Grapevine" as I know it, is known for it's low loss of rope strength and is commonly used in climbing gear.

Didn't matter. Failed in the knot.

[craig]

I'll ask my friend what knot he used, and ask Jon (winchline.com owner) what knot they showed us at the tech session.

As you found, I'm sure that the knot will always become the weakest point regardless. The right knot was enough to get us home though. Next time, I'll splice it in the field though. It's a pretty simple process.

Craig

[Lynn]

If you want to learn the Grapevine knot, it's also known as a double fisherman's knot, and is illustrated here. (http://www.animatedknots.com/doublefishermans/index.php?LogoImage=LogoGrog.jpg&Website=www.animatedknots.com)

WRT knot strength, you can find a lot of different theories and speculation, as well as different charts with different numbers. My 'Alpine Search and Rescue' text states that there have been many lab tests, but there has never been a documented case of climber's ropes breaking at the knot. They have all failed due to some other reason, like poor rope maintenance, or, more often, the rope passing over a sharp edge and getting cut. Ropes under tension cut very easily, even by rocks you wouldn't think of as sharp.

Granted, the text is pretty old, but the point is valid: Know your knots, sure, but don't put too much analysis into the knot and neglect the more common causes of rope failure.

Personnaly, I would suggest that a figure-8 bend (http://www.animatedknots.com/fig8join/index.php?LogoImage=LogoGrog.jpg&Website=www.animatedknots.com) (tie a loose figure-8 in one rope, then follow it through with the other rope from the opposite direction, then tighten it down) MAY be SLIGHTLY stronger than the double fisherman's. But that's JMHO ;)

[Lynn]

Oh, also IMHO, the figure-8 is easier to untie after it has been loaded...

[ntsqd]

Oh, also IMHO, the figure-8 is easier to untie after it has been loaded...
Tried one. Actually a Figure-8 Follow-thru. It failed faster than the Grapevine Knot. Of the knots I tried the Grapevine did the best, but it still wasn't good enough.
I was taught that the Grapevine's second main attribute is that it doesn't easily come apart after it's had a load applied. So there are places where it should be used and places where it should not be used.

Until real world testing shows me a knot, that I can remember how to tie, that works I consider poly winch lines to be only spliceable and not knotable. That's not to be an ogre about it, it's just the most conservative approach.

Taking a pencil and carefully worming it thru the line truly perpendicular to the line's direction and following it thru with the line's end, then repeat 4-5 times about an inch apart (in 1/4" line) made a fast, simple, and thoroughly ugly "splice" that worked better than any knot that I tried.

Somewhere I still have that spliced piece. It too did fail, but not in the splice. It failed in the eye created by the splice. Which brings up a point that hasn't yet been made. That same minimum bend radius that makes or breaks a knot also applies to what you loop the line around. In steel cable you can get away without a thimble. It does ugly things to the cable, but the cable will live for a while. I do not consider this possible with poly line. You MUST use a thimble or some other means that won't allow a sharp corner in the line.

[craig]

My friend, in the Coast Guard, that tied the knot gave me the following info when asked what knot he used...

The knot was a square knot, aka a reef knot with a figure 8 on each bitter end so that the line wouldn't slip too far... these would all work nicely... http://www.realknots.com/knots/bends.htm and stop any of those with these http://www.realknots.com/knots/stoppers.htm

In a pinch, I hope it helps. :)

[ntsqd]

At the suggestion of a friend I tried that knot too and it also failed.

However, since I am not accustomed to doing so I didn't use any stopper knots and that may make the difference.

[Lynn]

At the suggestion of a friend I tried that knot too and it also failed.

However, since I am not accustomed to doing so I didn't use any stopper knots and that may make the difference.

I'm curious as to how these knots were failing. Were they slipping or was the rope breaking in the knot?

I haven't worked with winch rope, but from what you've posted so far it sounds like maybe they were slipping. If that's the case, maybe the double fisherman's is the best knot. It was designed, after all, to hold monofilament line, which is notoriously hard to tie.

Or, to revisit what you said earlier:


...I consider poly winch lines to be only spliceable and not knotable...

Maybe anyone who used synth winch rope should just plan on splicing? From what you said, it sounds like you have a hollow braid line, which is almost as fast to splice as it is to knot... However, hollow braid splicings can also come loose if they are repeatedly loaded and unloaded. They should be checked before each loading.

[ntsqd]

What I tested was Amsteel (not Amsteel Blue) in 1/4" size. I choose this size b/c I was interested in spooling more line onto my cable-less Warn M8. The Amsteel instead of the Amsteel Blue came about b/c that was what I could buy by the foot locally. Had the 1/4" Amsteel performed better I'd have asked Scott Ellinger @ Rockstomper to order a 600' spool of 1/4" Amsteel Blue & found enough other buyers to make it worth his trouble. Given the performance of the Amsteel, the difference in their numbers didn't buy me enough F.S. to be comfortable with going down that path.

These are a 12 strand woven (not laid) line. The mfg recommended eyelet splice takes advantage of it's being hollow in a "chinese finger trap" sort of way.

Every knot, when loaded, caused a separation failure of the line. The parting points characteristically all looked melted. The appearance looked like if you pull Surveyor's string tight and then hold a lighter under it. It has been a while since I did this testing, but my recollection of the separation point is that it consistently was where the live end encountered the first wrap of any sort in the knot.

I have two possible explanations of what the failure process is. The first is that tight bends in the line are stress risers, and that stress is released in the form of enough localized heat to weaken the line enough for the loading to pull it apart. The second is that, no matter how tight you set the knot, line loading causes the knot to further constrict and that relative movement generates the localized heat.
I take note that a sharp edge on a rock or anything else is also likely to cause this sort of failure.

In any case, these are all short term field repair methods. I doubt the ability of a knot to spool onto the winch drum. A Long splice probably will, but will upset the lay of the line on the drum.

I also tried 2 splices, the mfg recommended method for an eyelet (which requires a splicing fid) and the flat lateral weave I previously posted. Neither failed first, the knots always gave up first.

[craig]

Hmmm.... Did the knot fail, or did the rope fail at the knot?

In our case the knot was tied on 5/16" winchline.com Viking Trail line (Amsteel Blue) and was used to lug a 5000lb truck uphill through snow drifts several times the rest of the day.

Photos attached just to keep the thread lively. :)

White D1 - Chris (Coast Guard guy) running cable
Red D2 - Andy - running the broken rope

Craig

[craig]

Yeah, these are all just temporary repairs. Splicing is just as easy, and is something everyone should learn how to do. It is extremely easy. No more difficult than running the string through swim trunks with a safety pin. The FID is the safety pin. :) You can use anything long/skinny along with some electrical tape as a FID (E.g. pen/pencil).

The guys at winchline.com said the same thing as you suggest about why the knots cause failure. That is because they get bent too sharply causing the fibers to abrade against each other. The friction and subsequent heat would definately cause the melting you saw too.

Craig

[ntsqd]

snip......
Hmmm.... Did the knot fail, or did the rope fail at the knot?

AIR The line itself failed at the knot's first wrap around the line. Can not recall a knot failing internally.

Should also mention that the flat lateral weave type splice was roughly 5 times faster to execute. Could make a difference in some situations.

[paulj]

Article regarding possible use of synthetic line in logging:

http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/jhartter/Synrope_Research/Synthetic%20Rope%20to%20Replace%20Wire%20Rope%20in %20Mountain%20Logging%20Operations.pdf

[Photog]

So, after all the knotty discussion, it sounds like the synthetic rope is easier to repair than wire rope; just learn how to splice. How would you repair a wire rope? How long would that take? How strong would it be? Could you wrap it onto the winch drum?

THE ORIGINAL QUESTION in post #1:
"Synthetic winch rope ... any good? Know the strength is spot on and better than wire rope, carefull with dirt on it bt but main concern, how does it handle extended exposure to harsh UV radiation (like what we have in Africa). EXpected life span?"

Here is an excellent article about the durability of synthetic line for winching.

http://www.bb4wa.com/articles/amsteel2.htm

[charlieaarons]

Wire rope is very easy to fix if broken, but I've never broken one in 34 years of winch-using. I carry some cable clips. You can either make 2 new eyes and connect them with a shackle or just clamp the two pieces together. They won't go thru a typical light duty fairlead but will go thru the fairlead on my front winch (20K DP hydraulic with 9/16" cable).
I still don't trust synthetic line; these discussions about knots failing due to heat confirm my doubts. And who doesn't drag line thru the dirt or over rocks?
Did you all know that 80-90% of the input energy into an electric winch goes into heat? Proof: Warn 16500, 3'/min at max load = 49500 ft-lb/min = 0.9 hp output. Input: 507A X 12V = 6.08kw = 4.56 hp. So 80% = 4800W goes to heat; enough to heat a small house! or to melt synthetic line.
Do the numbers yourself from the winch mfgs sites if you don't believe me.
Charlie

[Photog]

Charlie, Does your rig need wire rope due to the weight of the rig? Do the cold temps of Alaska have any negative effect on either type of rope? I have never broken a wire rope either; but that usually isn't the problem with wire. It is all the kinking, coiling, wires that cut your hands (even through gloves), corrosion, cleaning, oiling (waxing), etc.

To everyone else:
For those worried about heat and dirt, the article listed above, suggests that heat and dirt are not the problems the wire rope folks make them out to be. The guy that wrote the article uses his winch more in a month, than most of use will ever use our winches. Field experience is worth more to me, than armchair theorizing. Experience shows not much of a problem with heat & dirt. Move on.

The fellow that did all the testing with the knots found out that rope breaks at the knot. Real experience. All ropes will break at the knot, even wire rope. Big suprise. If you need full line strength, don't fix them with knots. If you only need 50% line strength, there are many knots that will work just fine. But; his real world experience showed the need to learn how to splice. Problem solved. Move on.

Mountaineers and rock climbers learn how to protect their ropes, over abrasion points. This would be no different. Problem solved. Move on.

There are so many drawbacks to wire rope, and so few for synthetic rope. And all the "problems" with synthetic can be solved. Not so with wire.

Do they both work? Yep. Do they both need a certain amount of care? Yep.

I think I will go with synthetic, for the situations a 4X4 rig will see. Did I miss anything that relates to off-road or expedition use of a winch? I could still get a wire rope for the winch, if there is a compelling reason.

OK, time to cool off. It is Friday, and I need a brew.:wings:

[paulj]

Regarding the flat lateral weave - is this done by spreading strands to make a hole in the middle of the line, and then passing the end through that hole. And then repeating the process a half dozen times?

paulj

[charlieaarons]

[QUOTE=Photog]Charlie, Does your rig need wire rope due to the weight of the rig? Do the cold temps of Alaska have any negative effect on either type of rope? I have never broken a wire rope either; but that usually isn't the problem with wire. It is all the kinking, coiling, wires that cut your hands (even through gloves), corrosion, cleaning, oiling (waxing), etc.

Do they make synthetic winch line in bigger diameters? Of course they do make superstrong synthetic lines in all sorts of diameters, I just suspect you'd have to find something with good abrasion resistance and a low stretch coefficient in the 25-40,000 lb category. My rigging shop has a display wall full of different synthetic lines, including some really nice stretchy stuff for snatching in 1-3/4" that I'd get if I didn't already have a 40mm Marlow line.
I try to avoid activities that involve winching when it's very cold out.

Charlie

[Photog]

That blue line has very low stretch. That is part of the reason it does not store a lot of energy (if it were to break). it does not "slingshot" like the wire rope.

[ntsqd]

Regarding the flat lateral weave - is this done by spreading strands to make a hole in the middle of the line, and then passing the end through that hole. And then repeating the process a half dozen times?

paulj

Imagine looking at the side of line. Take a pencil or similarly semi-pointed untensil and poke a cross-ways hole thru it, working to make sure that you don't split a strand bundle around both sides of the hole. Push the end of the line thru the hole, and pull enough thru to repeat several more times from alternating sides.

Keep in mind that this is NOT any sort of approved splice method. It was borne from experimentation with the thot of "Gotta get this spliced b4 those guys can no longer keep that truck from rolling" kinds of scenarios. I was looking for a fast, simple knot replacement and this worked.


I failed that 1/4" Amsteel many times during the testing. Even with only a couple feet of cable played out every time the hook and steel cable from the 8274 being used to pull on it became a hazzard to all of us, but the Amsteel would recoil less than a foot and fall to the ground.
The energy stored in the poly line was mostly the loose weave being pulled tight. As soon as they were loose again, no more energy.

When we quit trying knots & moved to splices we started moving the 'anchor' and had to improve that as best we could. The anchor was a 2wd GM Crew Cab SRW with a loaded service bed. It was my friend's expedition-tow-racer chaser-rescue-baja rig, affectionately known as the "Behemoth". One side of the box was all tools and the other had all their camping gear. We had it in park with the e-brake set while sitting on the asphalt street in front of his house and were dragging it backwards with that 1/4" line. Chocking the rears finally stopped it from moving.

IMHO the double solution to the UV and abrasion concerns are the abrasion sleaves sold. If you get them long enough or enough of them they will cover the whole top wrap on the spool, and you can slide them along the line to whatever point(s) are a concern.

[paulj]

I think you are making something similar to Brummel splice.

http://www.neropes.com/SPL_12Strand_EyeSpliceBrummel.aspx

Actually this link is for a locked or mobius brummel, in which the parts pass through each other. Your's may be a stiched brummel, since the tail is passing through the standing part several times.

http://www.instructables.com/id/EAZH7SUT30EP286A98/

The locked version is more secure, though applying a whipping to your splice should improve its strength.

I don't have any of this blue line around, but it sounds as though its construction is similar to the inexpensive yellow polypro line (a single hollow braid). I'll have to play around with some of that.

paulj

[paulj]

There are a number of papers and conference presentations on research done at Oregon State into using rope like Amsteel Blue in logging. This is the most interesting, as it focuses on splices and connectors:

http://www.cbs.state.or.us/osha/pdf/grants/osu/runninglines.pdf

[Alaska Mike]

This weekend I decided I'll stick with cable for a while. A friend was in a got-to-winch situation, 15 miles back on a hilly, greasy, rocky trail with a broken rear driveshaft on his FJ-40 and a limited slip in the front that wasn't pulling over the smallest bump. The 3/8" rope kept getting wet/greasy and slipping down into and binding the 8274 spool, causing it to break. Obviously this rope had issues to start with, but they weren't apparent just sitting on the drum. Only a couple years old. We had three breaks, none of them at the figure 8 knot I tied to repair it. The constant rain could have had an affect there. These were not full load pulls by any means, and the rope wasn't being jerked. It just failed, right when we needed it most.

Others up here have great success with winch rope, and other brands (I'm not sure who made this particular rope) are much more reliable/durable. I just can't justify the purchase right now when I've never had a cable fail. There's too many other issues that are pending.

[Photog]

Interesting. How does a rope get into the spool and cause binding on an 8274 winch. Wouldn't the fairlead keep it organized toward the middle?

If a rope can get into the spool, and cause binding, isn't that a winch design problem?

I have not looked that closely to the 8274. Does anyone have photos of how this might happen?

[Alaska Mike]

I should have been more clear. The rope was slipping down into the windings on the spool. Even after spooling and re-spooling the rope under tension and tightly, it just kept binding. We tried a couple different style wraps to see what would happen, but to no avail.

The breakage was what annoyed me the most. 3/8" rope should be strong enough to stall a 8000lb winch. I doubt it was pulling 1000lbs when it was failing (slight incline, no real obstacles to pull over).

[ntsqd]

FWIW it sounds like the line was over-due for replacement. I'm thinking that any judgment of poly winch lines based on that performance is poorly based.
My admittedly limited experience with 8274's is that they tend to wind the live end down into the wraps on the spool with steel cable too. Can't recall ever seeing a used 8274 that didn't have a minor rat's nest on it's spool.

Though that doesn't lessen the hassle of dealing with it.

[Alaska Mike]

3-4 years of occasional use (less than half that of my 5/16" steel cable) and it's done? In this case, with this particular rope... color me unimpressed. For what it runs new, I was expecting something... more. When your life depends on a rope (and mine has more than once), you tend not to takes chances when selecting your gear. Looking at my budget for modifications and the track record of what I have currently, I'll stick with steel cable for now. If I was competing or more concerned with weight, I would revisit this opinion.

[Alaska Mike]

In regards to the 8274 and it's spooling characteristics, I think the line speed and how their used has more to do with any rat nesting than the design. The fact that it will pull through just about any nasty looking spool job tends to make people lazy. I could never get away with the side pulls I do occasionally with the 8274 with my old M8000. At least, not without a lot of repositioning and periodic respooling.

[Photog]

OK, I think I understand what you are saying. The wet rope was sliding down into the lower layers of rope, as the tension was applied.

So; where was the rope failing? At the fairlead; in the spool; mid-air;...?

[Alaska Mike]

One failure was in the drum (that was a pain to dig out), one was at the roller fairlead (middle of roller, straight pull), and one was in the air. None of the knots I tied failed (again, perhaps due to the rain), even though the hook had a fairly sharp edge on the ring.

[Photog]

Wow!
Do you have any idea how old the rope was, or its history?

While you were having to deal with it, were there any frayed sections, causing the weakness?

I know if the rope gets dirt pressed into the weave, it will need to be cleaned, or the dirt will cause internal cutting, when under tension load.

[Alaska Mike]

As I understand it, the rope was donated to a local wheeler by a sponsor for his Outback Challenge bid a few years ago, and for whatever reason he decided to go with a smaller size and different brand rope. I think he made the right choice.

[paulj]

Samson has a paper looking at the use of their ropes for mooring large ships. They concluded that a smooth, closed fairlead was better than a roller one. The rope (amsteel blue) was too slick to rotate the rollers much, and the corner where the vertical and horizontal rollers met was a potential pinch point.

paulj

[ntsqd]

In regards to the 8274 and it's spooling characteristics, I think the line speed and how their used has more to do with any rat nesting than the design. The fact that it will pull through just about any nasty looking spool job tends to make people lazy. I could never get away with the side pulls I do occasionally with the 8274 with my old M8000. At least, not without a lot of repositioning and periodic respooling.

I'd agree with that! Does make me wonder about those who've widened their spool though. Is that an even bigger rat's nest or ?



Since my testing and it's localized heat observations I've often wondered about the wisdom of a hawse fairlead when used with a poly line, but it does appear to be the better way to go. Maybe the length of contact is long enough to avoid generating enough heat to damage the line?

[Photog]

They now make the hawse fairlead from HDPE plastic. Seems to be a better match to the synthetic rope. I'm sure there are some differences in heat generation and retention, compared to the metal hawse fairlead.

[paulj]

I was thinking more about use of synthetic winch rope with a short range hand winch like a come-along or hilift. The big advantage of chain is that you can maintain tension regardless of the distance to the anchor. But chain is heavy.

I haven't seen any discussion as to whether it is possible to attach prusk lines (or related knots) to the blue line. It may be too slick. Plus the knots are a potential weak point.

Samson has instructions on using their lines on H-bollards when mooring ships. So line that can't take knots can still work with the larger surface and curvature of a bollard. But I am having trouble thinking of a portable bollard like object that would work with a light-duty SUV.

Yesterday on a Washington ferry, I looked at the mooring lines. At first glance they looked like large diameter, 3 strand yellow polypro lines. But I suspect they were really were 8 strand Proton-8 lines from Samson (or something similar). This uses the same core fiber as the amsteel blue, but in a higher friction design (with a polyester cover) that provides higher grip and heat resistance. But, the smallest size is 1", 61,000 lbs.

Actually the H-bitts paper is for this 8 strand line
http://www.samsonrope.com/site_files/8Strand_Rope_Handling.pdf


paulj

[craig]

I was thinking more about use of synthetic winch rope with a short range hand winch like a come-along or hilift. The big advantage of chain is that you can maintain tension regardless of the distance to the anchor. But chain is heavy.

Exactly. I carry chain now, but have been thinking about carrying a 25' rock strap instead. Like chain, the winchline.com rock straps stretch very little and are robust enough to wrap around a rock. The advantage being that they are much lighter and easier to handle. The chain is stronger for sure, but the rock strap is easier to use and pack. http://www.winchline.com/treesaver.htm

Craig

[Bayou Boy]

What I did on my 8274 with Amsteel blue to combat this slipping into the warps was this.

Take a normal wrap the full width of the spool then go back to the other end quickly so you are going over 5-6 wraps below with one wrap above.
Repeat this until full.

This keeps the wraps from cutting between the wraps because the cross wraps stop them.

Wow that's kinda confusing.

[Tucson T4R]

What I did on my 8274 with Amsteel blue to combat this slipping into the warps was this.

Take a normal wrap the full width of the spool then go back to the other end quickly so you are going over 5-6 wraps below with one wrap above.
Repeat this until full.

This keeps the wraps from cutting between the wraps because the cross wraps stop them.

Wow that's kinda confusing.


Not confusing, that actualy makes good sense. Interesting idea.

[Bayou Boy]

I can't remember where I read that. I did a google search after I had my line cut into the wraps and respooled it like this.

I haven't actually made a pull yet to test it though.


:peepwall:

[Kilroy]

Bill Burke demonstrates a method that won't bind up to reduce the length of a synthetic rope. I saw it in his DVD on recovery. Didn't pay as much attention as I should have as I don't have synthetic rope, yet.




I haven't seen any discussion as to whether it is possible to attach prusk lines (or related knots) to the blue line. It may be too slick. Plus the knots are a potential weak point.

paulj

[paulj]

Expedition Exchange has a couple of pictures of Bill shortening a line. I have copied it, but it looks to me as though it would weaken the line just like knots do. Basically he produces a chain of overhand loops, with each one holding the previous one open. The last is a marlin hitch. Over the shortening length the line is tripled.

paulj

[Alaska Mike]

What I did on my 8274 with Amsteel blue to combat this slipping into the warps was this.

Take a normal wrap the full width of the spool then go back to the other end quickly so you are going over 5-6 wraps below with one wrap above.
Repeat this until full.

This keeps the wraps from cutting between the wraps because the cross wraps stop them.

Wow that's kinda confusing.

We started doing that and had about 3 wraps on, but it was so greasy that it just buried itself anyway. Very frustrating. The fact that is was a thicker line might have had something to do with the problem. I doubt that it would have been an issue in a drier climate or with another rope.

This stuff was/is junk.

[SEREvince]

This stuff was/is junk.

Wow, one shot and done?

Anyway the reason I am reviving this post is I have found multiple sources for these lines at very good prices and I thought I'd share. You can also buy it much cheaper by the foot at marine supply sources about $.40 cheaper per ft.

Best price out the door line/thimble and hook that I have been able to find.
http://www.amsteelblue.com/item.cfm?itemid=44772

Also something good to know is that the winchline.com parent company Gourock undercuts thier own folks on eBay by a good margin and even throw in a free hat! Maybe due to overstocks in certain models?

$50 savings on 100' 5/16 FIRELINE

http://stores.ebay.com/Gourock-Netting-and-Rope-Products_Recovery-Gear_W0QQcolZ4QQdirZ1QQfsubZ8QQftidZ2QQtZkm

If can find a synth line cheaper, let me know!

[paulj]

This page on spectra fishing line
http://www.fishingkites.co.nz/fishingknots/spectra_fishing_line.html
suggests threading the line through a length of braided dacron fishing line to significantly increase the strength of knotted line. The dacron keeps the spectra line from cutting itself.

It raises the possibility that strength of a knot in winch rope could be increased by incorporate a sheath into the knotted section. Some winch line already comes with a sheath. It might also be possible to thread winch line less than 1/2" in diameter through a length of 1" tubular nylon webbing (the common climber's webbing).

paulj

[seriessearcher]

I have snapped a steel line and never want to see it again. I am going with Rockstomper line out of CO. I know this post is way at the end of a long line of folks giving a lot of great information.

We were very lucky when my steel line snapped.

[SEREvince]

I couldn't pass up the OD green FIRELINE! I'm a sucker for anti-bling what can I say?

Can you say cool? Stable up to 450 degrees, with a 13K breaking strength!

$50 off of the price on Winchline.com (same company) Plus a free hat:wings:

http://stores.ebay.com/Gourock-Netting-and-Rope-Products_Recovery-Gear_W0QQcolZ4QQdirZ1QQfsubZ8QQftidZ2QQtZkm

[paulj]

Here's a shot of one of the mooring lines on a British Columbia ferry. Note that an armored thimble has been spliced into the line, and cable sling spliced into that to take the actual wear and tear on the dock.

Actually in this picture there are two lines. One coiled on the wood pallet, the other hitched to the mooring bits.

paulj

[craig]

I couldn't pass up the OD green FIRELINE! I'm a sucker for anti-bling what can I say?

Can you say cool? Stable up to 450 degrees, with a 13K breaking strength!

$50 off of the price on Winchline.com (same company) Plus a free hat:wings:

http://stores.ebay.com/Gourock-Netting-and-Rope-Products_Recovery-Gear_W0QQcolZ4QQdirZ1QQfsubZ8QQftidZ2QQtZkm


Only 13k? Is that suitable for vehicle recovery?

Craig

[SEREvince]

Only 13k? Is that suitable for vehicle recovery?

Craig

That's 13,000lbs or almost 6000 kilos

I believe that the 5/16 wire rope equiped on most 8000lb winches is only good to about 9000lbs.

It also depends on the vehicle,

Unimog = probably not enough
Tacoma = More than enough

[ntsqd]

It has been my observation that self recovery winches do not adhere to rigging industry safety standards. Where industry would want at least a 2:1 F.S. (more in Man-lift or overhead situations) the self recovery products are barely more than 1:1 I believe this is why every self recovery winch has the "Not to be used for Hoisting Operations" disclaimer.
At least with 13k line on an 8k winch the F.S. is 1.625:1

[Photog]

The 13,000 lb breaking strength is determined in a lab, under ideal conditions. When you place a thimble, or any other device in or on the line, you will reduce the ultimate tensile strength of the "system". Then, considering the way the line may be entering the fairlead, the breaking strength will also be reduced. Then, how the line is laying onto the drum also reduces line strengh.

So; with a 13,000 lb "LAB" strength for the line, you may have an actual "working" strength of 7,000 - 10,000 lbs. Depending on how poorly you take care of the synthetic rope, or the poor riging practices, your line could easily be the weak link. At least the synthetic line would not kill anyone, if it broke; but a vehicle might roll backwards down something dangerous, if a line were to break.

One more thing to consider. If you are winching your vehicle up a rough spot, or out of the mud, the force necessary to move the vehicle, can easily be 2x or 3x the weight of the vehicle. An 8000lb winch won't be enough for a Tacoma. Luckily, we only need a "boost", most of the time, and the winch does the job. But, when you REALLY need it, the little winch might not be able to get the job done. You might need another vehicle with a winch to assist, or a High-Lift to get your axles out of the mud first, then pull, etc...

[SEREvince]

When you place a thimble, or any other device in or on the line, you will reduce the ultimate tensile strength of the "system".


According to Samson a spliced end loop executed in accordance with their guidance retains 90-100% of the original "new rope" breaking strength.



So; with a 13,000 lb "LAB" strength for the line, you may have an actual "working" strength of 7,000 - 10,000 lbs.

Your figures puts the synthetic ropes working load on par with the OEM wire ropes breaking strength. This means instead of destroying your $1200 8274-50 or ripping off a piece of your truck you break a $200 piece of rope.

More isn't always better.



One more thing to consider. If you are winching your vehicle up a rough spot, or out of the mud, the force necessary to move the vehicle, can easily be 2x or 3x the weight of the vehicle. An 8000lb winch won't be enough for a Tacoma. Luckily, we only need a "boost", most of the time,

Commonly quoted numbers, that I have luckily never seen in field conditions. I have witnessed crappy 8000lb winches make multiple pulls of Tacomas and larger vehicles over near verticle obstacles and while heavily mired in mud. Remember that this 6000lb vehicle is on wheels, I can generally push it around pretty easily over a flat surface, even uphill with a friend or two. (and Superman I am not!).

Basically this line of thinking says that the surface area of the components below the surface of the mud are generating 2-3 times more drag than the total weight of the vehicle being hoisted in the air? Maybe if you just burried some 49" Iroks up to the frame I could see this.

I'm not saying that it's not possible to generate 24,000lbs of drag with a 6,000lbs vehicle on wheels.


At that point you need heavy equipment, or maybe just a shovel.
http://www.4wheeloffroad.com/whoops/131_0604_ultra_4x4_whoops/photo_04.html

Here's what we use to unstuck things.
http://www.olive-drab.com/idphoto/id_photos_wrecker_hemtt_m984.php

By all accounts it shouldn't be able to recover its self let alone a tank.

[charlieaarons]

"One more thing to consider. If you are winching your vehicle up a rough spot, or out of the mud, the force necessary to move the vehicle, can easily be 2x or 3x the weight of the vehicle. An 8000lb winch won't be enough for a Tacoma. Luckily, we only need a "boost", most of the time, and the winch does the job. But, when you REALLY need it, the little winch might not be able to get the job done. You might need another vehicle with a winch to assist, or a High-Lift to get your axles out of the mud first, then pull, etc"

I've seen this allegation before. How does one explain that a typical "5 ton" military vehicle that has a GVW of 27000 lbs come equipped with a 20000 lb hydraulic winch? Do all the armies of the world not know what they are doing? Perhaps an explanation is that a hydraulic winch near its' pull limit will pull just as fast and efficiently (with little heat buildup) as with no load. Whereas an electric near its' limit slows down to almost nothing, emits screaming noises and draws immense amperage and builds up potentially fatal amounts of heat quickly because electrics have a thermo-electric efficiency of 10-20%, which is easily provable by looking at the the charts of pull/linespeed vs pull/amperage and doing a simple calculation (linespeed X pull in lbs /55,000 = hp output; amperage X 12V /.747 = hp input).
So although a 5000 lb rig may need an 8000 lb electric winch, a 27000 lb Unimog does fine with 15-20000 lb hydraulic winches. Paticularly if you pick a gear in the crawler range (55.7:1 additional reduction) to match tire speed to winch speed. Recreational electric winches are over-rated IMHO.
Nobody puts 65000 lb hydraulic winches that weigh 1500 lb on 25000 lb trucks. Check Jane's Military Vehicles, any edition, if you don't believe me.

Charlie

[p1michaud]

One more thing to consider. If you are winching your vehicle up a rough spot, or out of the mud, the force necessary to move the vehicle, can easily be 2x or 3x the weight of the vehicle. An 8000lb winch won't be enough for a Tacoma. Luckily, we only need a "boost", most of the time, and the winch does the job. But, when you REALLY need it, the little winch might not be able to get the job done. You might need another vehicle with a winch to assist, or a High-Lift to get your axles out of the mud first, then pull, etc...

Excellent point. Don't forget the use of a snatch/pulley block that would double your pulling power (minus friction losses say 8%). That is nearly 15360 lbs for an 8000 lb winch.
Now if we take a very heavy Tacoma say Scott's for example at 6000 lbs (extreme case IMO) it could push you over the winch capacity depending on how stuck you were.

For example:
Good stuck but not on the frame rails: 2 x 6000 = 12 000 lbs thus you would be fine with a 8000 lb winch.
Completely burried stuck: 3 x 6000 = 18 000 lbs now you may be in trouble with an 8000 lb winch. There are other things you could do at this point as you have previously mentionnned (Hi-Lift, other vehicle helping, dig out under stuck vehicle, etc...).

Great discussion!
Cheers,
P

)..

[SEREvince]

I must be living in denial!:sport_box

I'll never believe that my Tacoma requires a 25,000 winch.

I always thought a pulley decreased the effort required to move a load? Does it double the output?

Does it really turn a 8,000lb winch into a 16,000 winch? Does a second pully make it a 32,000lb winch?

Give me two pullies and I'll be hoisting Mogs into the air like feathers!

So many questions!

[charlieaarons]

Archimedes said:
"Give me a lever and I will move the Earth".
Two pulleys gives 3 lines, so total pulling force is tripled, MINUS frictional losses. The winch is still what it is, the net winching speed is reduced by a factor equal to the number of lines.

Charlie

[ntsqd]

Archimedes said:
"Give me a lever and I will move the Earth".
Two pulleys gives 3 lines, so total pulling force is tripled, MINUS frictional losses. The winch is still what it is, the net winching speed is reduced by a factor equal to the number of lines.

Charlie
The thing that gives a lot of people trouble is accepting that the tension in the line remains the same. That is the case though. One way to look at is that each line is effectively another winch line hooked to the vehicle.

A snatch block or two is also a really good way to do very delicate or exact positioning work with a winch that has a high line speed, like an 8274 or similar.