Spooling Synthetic (with pics)

[Master-Pull]

In response to some questions I have seen online and also ones that we received at the office I thought it would be good to show how to properly spool a synthetic rope on a winch drum.

It's important to make sure you get the rope going the correct way on the drum, on electric winches today the rope wraps under the drum as pictured. You can see where our drum link bolts to the winch and holds the rope in place when it is spooling. Make sure you always leave one full layer of wraps on the drum. This is what secures the rope when winching, the drum link is only there to hold the rope tight when it is being spooled on.

http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd42/alexer03/MASTER-PULL/P1010156.jpg

Make sure you use a fairlead built for synthetic, such as one of our hawse type fairleads. Rollers will work if they are smooth and not used with steel cable.

http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd42/alexer03/MASTER-PULL/P1010157.jpg

It's difficult to see, but make sure there is at least a quarter of an inch gap between the inside of the fairlead and the backing plate. If they are the same height then the rope will rub on the bumper instead of the fairlead.

http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd42/alexer03/MASTER-PULL/P1010158.jpg

It is important to use heat guard with the first wrap on the drum of synthetic, ours is 12 feet long. Get this (and all the wraps) as tight as possible to prevent the rope from cutting through the top layers.

http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd42/alexer03/MASTER-PULL/P1010160.jpg

Keep fingers and hands away from the winch so they can't be sucked in while you are spooling!

http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd42/alexer03/MASTER-PULL/P1010161.jpg

Keep tension on the rope to make sure you get tight need wraps on the winch. The neater it is the better it will fit.

http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd42/alexer03/MASTER-PULL/P1010163.jpg

The finished product, Superline XD for this Scout!

http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd42/alexer03/MASTER-PULL/P1010168.jpg

-Alex

[mountainpete]

Thanks for posting this Alex!

[Sock Puppet]

Well written/photgraphed; thanks!

[Master-Pull]

Thanks guys, it's up on CRAWLs website now: http://www.crawlmag.com/tech/proper-winch-line-installation/

-Alex

[loren85022]

Sorry to get of subject, but this thread reminded me . . . . .

Alex, I'm considering the addition of a winch, and am curious why I dont seem to see any winches for sale with the synth-rope attached from the get go. All seem to have the more traditional cable. Have I not looked hard enough, or is there a reason?

[colodak]

what is the weight difference between synthetic winch line and regular steel cable? I have a milemarker winch on my pickup and have been contemplating this swap, but is there much of a weight savings?

[Jp90Talon]

Im not going to lie but I actually learned something in this thread. For the past few years I was under the assumption that that sleeve was meant to be kept at the front end of the line to protect the line from rubbing against things and damaging the line. I did not know that it was a heat guard and should be spooled first. Thank you for your post!

[ExpoMike]

what is the weight difference between synthetic winch line and regular steel cable? I have a milemarker winch on my pickup and have been contemplating this swap, but is there much of a weight savings?

It is substancal. The steel cable accounted for almost half the weight of the winch. I couldn't believe it when I took it off. :Wow1: The synthetic line was approx. 1/5 the weight of the steel. I think the hook almost weighed more than the line.

Definitely a worthwild investment beyond the safety factor.

[Master-Pull]

Sorry to get of subject, but this thread reminded me . . . . .

Alex, I'm considering the addition of a winch, and am curious why I dont seem to see any winches for sale with the synth-rope attached from the get go. All seem to have the more traditional cable. Have I not looked hard enough, or is there a reason?

Some winches do come with synthetic, but generally the price of the winch and rope at one time turns people away. Plus if you want Superline or Superline XD we are the only people to offer it and Master-Pull is not going to start making winches or selling to only one winch manufacturing company.


what is the weight difference between synthetic winch line and regular steel cable? I have a milemarker winch on my pickup and have been contemplating this swap, but is there much of a weight savings?

100 feet of synthetic with a huge hook on it only weighs 4 or 5 lbs, the steel weighs over 20 last time I checked.


Im not going to lie but I actually learned something in this thread. For the past few years I was under the assumption that that sleeve was meant to be kept at the front end of the line to protect the line from rubbing against things and damaging the line. I did not know that it was a heat guard and should be spooled first. Thank you for your post!

Some people use it for an abrasion sleeve, but since it is very thin it is easy to wear through. Instead we include a 3ft rock guard with each rope we sell to that easily velcros on and off so you can store it with your recovery gear.

-Alex

[DaveInDenver]

Some people use it for an abrasion sleeve, but since it is very thin it is easy to wear through. Instead we include a 3ft rock guard with each rope we sell to that easily velcros on and off so you can store it with your recovery gear.
I also position the scuff sleeve at the hook end so that when the rope is spooled it acts like a UV protector. My rope is Amsteel Blue, which I understand is fairly UV stable. I hadn't thought about it as a heat shield, so I learned something new today, too.

[Master-Pull]

Dyneema by itself is fairly UV stable, the coating put on the rope is also UV resistant so you are covered pretty well.

-Alex

[colodak]

so let me change my question, if I'm currently running 3/8" x 100' winch cable. Do I need to stay with 3/8 or can I go smaller or larger with the synthetic. I've seen a couple of websites showing the weight ratings that lead me to believe I can go with 5/16. My vehicle is a 2000 Dodge Dakota, which has a current curb wieght of about 5,200lbs. I know my current cable is slightly more than the recommended 1.5x vehicle weight.

[Ray Hyland]

Alex, I have Masterpull synthetic line that I bought of Dave in Armstrong BC. Great rope, I am very happy with it. I am using it on a Milemarker hydraulic winch on my 110.

One issue I find is that even when I spool the line tightly when I winch it will often pull through the lower levels. So now I cross-spool the line to keep the top level from pulling down through the lower levels when winching.

Is this bad? Am I not spooling the line tight enough since I have this issue?

thanks

Ray

[opie]

so let me change my question, if I'm currently running 3/8" x 100' winch cable. Do I need to stay with 3/8 or can I go smaller or larger with the synthetic. I've seen a couple of websites showing the weight ratings that lead me to believe I can go with 5/16. My vehicle is a 2000 Dodge Dakota, which has a current curb wieght of about 5,200lbs. I know my current cable is slightly more than the recommended 1.5x vehicle weight.

5/16 would work, but if you are approaching your curb weight, you can easily push the limits of 5/16. 1.5x is a tad conservative, you should be looking at 2.5 -3x your loaded weight.

[opie]

Alex, I have Masterpull synthetic line that I bought of Dave in Armstrong BC. Great rope, I am very happy with it. I am using it on a Milemarker hydraulic winch on my 110.

One issue I find is that even when I spool the line tightly when I winch it will often pull through the lower levels. So now I cross-spool the line to keep the top level from pulling down through the lower levels when winching.

Is this bad? Am I not spooling the line tight enough since I have this issue?

thanks

Ray

Sounds like you are not getting sufficient tension on the line when you initially spooled it on.

I always recommend that you hook the end to a solid anchor point and have a helper man the steering and brake pedal while you run the winch and guide the line on the drum. Have your helper keep steady pressure on the brake pedal, especially during the first 2 wraps on the drum.

[colodak]

5/16 would work, but if you are approaching your curb weight, you can easily push the limits of 5/16. 1.5x is a tad conservative, you should be looking at 2.5 -3x your loaded weight.

I was looking at a 10,000 lb rated rope that I may pull the trigger on then, it'll be almost 2x, but my winch is only 8K and I'm not planning to replace it anytime soon.

[Ray Hyland]

Sounds like you are not getting sufficient tension on the line when you initially spooled it on.

I always recommend that you hook the end to a solid anchor point and have a helper man the steering and brake pedal while you run the winch and guide the line on the drum. Have your helper keep steady pressure on the brake pedal, especially during the first 2 wraps on the drum.

I always thought you only had to do it that tightly with steel rope. Thanks, I will do that with the synthetic too.

Cheers

[opie]

I was looking at a 10,000 lb rated rope that I may pull the trigger on then, it'll be almost 2x, but my winch is only 8K and I'm not planning to replace it anytime soon.

You also need to factor in the increased loads for things such as inclines, the vaccum effect of being stuck in mud, possibly needing to get up over an obstacle. This is why the 2-3 times suggestion is used. 10,000 does fall in just under the 2 times and 5/16 would put you between 2 and 3. A good read here (http://www.centraloverland.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=295).

But if you are looking at a 10,000 rated line, then 5/16 Dyneema would suit you fine as well. And treat anything you put on there with the same safety precautions you would steel cable.

[opie]

I always thought you only had to do it that tightly with steel rope. Thanks, I will do that with the synthetic too.

Cheers

Actually, its the opposite. With wire rope there is more friction involved when its wrapped around the drum. So it will less likely to move while on the drum. Synthetic rope is inherently slippery and will slide around on the drum as tension is applied, looking to fill the voids that will be created once the line is put under tension. As the line is loaded, it will decrease in diameter as the braid is pulled tight and the void in the center of the line disappears. When this happens it creates space between subsequent wraps for overlaying wraps to fall into.

The lack of friction and synthetic rope is the reason knots will degrade it more than say poly or nylon. The lack of friction allows the knot to be pulled tighter than a normal rope, decreasing the bend radius in the knot and leading to failure.

[Master-Pull]

so let me change my question, if I'm currently running 3/8" x 100' winch cable. Do I need to stay with 3/8 or can I go smaller or larger with the synthetic. I've seen a couple of websites showing the weight ratings that lead me to believe I can go with 5/16. My vehicle is a 2000 Dodge Dakota, which has a current curb wieght of about 5,200lbs. I know my current cable is slightly more than the recommended 1.5x vehicle weight.



5/16 would work, but if you are approaching your curb weight, you can easily push the limits of 5/16. 1.5x is a tad conservative, you should be looking at 2.5 -3x your loaded weight.

If he is going with a basic/ Amsteel Blue type rope then yes 5/16ths will be too light. But 5/16ths Superline is rated to 21,000 lbs, more then Amsteel Blue 3/8ths. So I would say run some 5/16ths Superline on the winch and call it good, you can fit more and it is a more durable rope.

What Opie has said about spooling the rope on tighter is true, we try to get ours on pretty tight either by winching up a hill or using the parking brake.

-Alex

[jfarsang]

Running an 8274, is there any need to use the sheath on the drum since there is no heat ? If so, then I can use it at the hook end to cover the line when spooled up. What do you think ? Nice post Alex !

[1911]

Running an 8274, is there any need to use the sheath on the drum since there is no heat ? If so, then I can use it at the hook end to cover the line when spooled up.

That's exactly what I do with my 8274.

[Master-Pull]

Running an 8274, is there any need to use the sheath on the drum since there is no heat ? If so, then I can use it at the hook end to cover the line when spooled up. What do you think ? Nice post Alex !


That's exactly what I do with my 8274.

If there is no internal drum brake then the winch will not heat up so you could use the nylon sheathing as a line protector.

-Alex

[jfarsang]

Thanks ! And I got the slinghook w/connector. Nice :)

[JamesDowning]

If there is no internal drum brake then the winch will not heat up so you could use the nylon sheathing as a line protector.

-Alex

Either way the sheathing isn't necessary, so long as you aren't winching out under power for long distances. If you pull your rope out by hand, your brake shouldn't be creating any heat.

Also, does the nylon sheathing really reduce temperatures any? The 1/6" of insulation it provides seems like it would transmit the temperatures to the core line pretty quickly. Have you guys put a thermocouple in the line to see? It would be an interesting study.

Regarding the line pulling down through the resting layers, that always seems to happen to some extent with my lines, no matter the initial wrap tension on the line. It doesn't seem to be a problem though... it just puts a temporary kink in the lines that get flattened. I'll just pull the line out fully, work the kink by hand, then re-spool it.

[Master-Pull]

The nylon seems to help, we have had lines that had no sheathing come back melted and flattened whereas the nylon covered line is in better shape. Either way we have a new product that provides much more heat protection. I have it on my winch and we are just going through some final checks before it gets released for purchase.

-Alex

[opie]

Either way the sheathing isn't necessary, so long as you aren't winching out under power for long distances. If you pull your rope out by hand, your brake shouldn't be creating any heat.

Correct.



Also, does the nylon sheathing really reduce temperatures any? The 1/6" of insulation it provides seems like it would transmit the temperatures to the core line pretty quickly. Have you guys put a thermocouple in the line to see? It would be an interesting study.

In short, no. All it does is prevent the line from melting to the drum. The heat will transfer through the sleeve to the line.

Samson has done some rather less than scientific testing, albeit testing, regarding the long term heat effects on regular SK75 as well as the fibers ability to conduct heat.. Now granted the purpose of the study was to find what the effects of ambient temps were on the rope, but I feel they did some testing that is relevant to winch use as well...

http://www.samsonrope.com/site_files/Synthetic_HMPE_Rope_Applications_in_Hot_Climates.p df

[opie]

The nylon seems to help, we have had lines that had no sheathing come back melted and flattened whereas the nylon covered line is in better shape. Either way we have a new product that provides much more heat protection. I have it on my winch and we are just going through some final checks before it gets released for purchase.

-Alex

Alex, Id be interested in seeing a photo of a line that's come back to you in this condition. When loaded and under wraps on the drum, SK75 can take on the appearance of being flattened and glazed.

The flattening has no effect on the strength.

The shiny sheen that can appear on the rope is not necessarily due to being melted, or "glazed." SK75 has a tendency to look glazed when its been run across itself and compressed. It too, has no effect on strength but I say that with some apprehension. What may be a normal trait for SK75, and actual glazing or melting are a fine line. If you can work the line in your hand back to normal, its not melted or glazed.

[Master-Pull]

It's not the melted or glazed lines we know what those look like. It's when the rope comes back and the strands are beginning to melt together or melt onto the winch drum. This is usually something that happens to competition guys because they are alot harder on everything they use. I don't have any of those ropes sitting around here, we usually toss them when we are out at events because its not worth carrying them home in the condition they come back to us in.

-Alex

[Stumpalump]

Mine was spooled when duct tape was recomended to cover the first layer. It works ok and I get the resistance of the tape if I try to pull it out too far. What I don't like about yours Alex is the picture of the winch with all the line spooled on. It shows what a neat job somebody did. This is great for a steel cable but not so much for a synthetic. To spool a synthetic, chaotic and criss cross is the way too go. Synthetic is just so soft that it will burry it's self between the wraps and it gets wedged really tight when loaded. So tight you almost can't unspool it. When you power out it wraps itself backwards and is a mess especially when you need it in dire situation. If it's all criss crossed it can't burry down and unspools easy. It does not look as nice but in real world it's a better way spool synthetic. Maybe with the nice XD covered line you offer it's not an issue. That stuff is so nice it makes synthetic line look bad.

[Master-Pull]

With the XD I have not had much of a problem with the rope cutting back through itself when we get it on there really tight. I do know what you mean and have had that happen to me when I used to use Amsteel Blue rope before I had my XD.

-Alex

[cjlewis]

Do you guys have an ETA on this new product? I am in the market for a new line and patitently waiting for what you guys have coming next :coffee:

Cheers!


The nylon seems to help, we have had lines that had no sheathing come back melted and flattened whereas the nylon covered line is in better shape. Either way we have a new product that provides much more heat protection. I have it on my winch and we are just going through some final checks before it gets released for purchase.

-Alex

[Master-Pull]

Not yet, we are waiting for a few more things to line up, as it were. If that is holding you back from ordering a rope I can always upgrade your line once you have it to the new drum protector once it is available.

-Alex

[jfarsang]

Mine was spooled when duct tape was recomended to cover the first layer. It works ok and I get the resistance of the tape if I try to pull it out too far. What I don't like about yours Alex is the picture of the winch with all the line spooled on. It shows what a neat job somebody did. This is great for a steel cable but not so much for a synthetic. To spool a synthetic, chaotic and criss cross is the way too go. Synthetic is just so soft that it will burry it's self between the wraps and it gets wedged really tight when loaded. So tight you almost can't unspool it. When you power out it wraps itself backwards and is a mess especially when you need it in dire situation. If it's all criss crossed it can't burry down and unspools easy. It does not look as nice but in real world it's a better way spool synthetic. Maybe with the nice XD covered line you offer it's not an issue. That stuff is so nice it makes synthetic line look bad.


With the XD I have not had much of a problem with the rope cutting back through itself when we get it on there really tight. I do know what you mean and have had that happen to me when I used to use Amsteel Blue rope before I had my XD.

-Alex

So which is the best way to spool amsteel blue line ?

[Master-Pull]

When I spooled my Amsteel Blue I still preferred to have it spooled on there neatly, with plenty of tension applied while spooling it in.

-Alex

[adrenaline503]

Thanks, I just used this guide to spool my new Master Pull synthetic line I bought at the Overland Rally.

[Master-Pull]

Glad we could help, if you caught any of our recovery classes you may have seen a technique that Sam uses when we need to un-stick a line. basically you wrap hold the line in each hand with it running behind your waist and use your body weight to un-jam it if it cuts through the layers.

-Alex

[LR Max]

Quick question:

Do you recommend spooling in under "load"? Basically, dead pulling your rig under load while just spooling in?

For a while there, I just spooled it in with the line laying on the ground and just laid it in the drum all nice a pretty. Then a couple guys flipped out on me about how it "HAS TO BE UNDER LOAD" or something.

So does it matter? From the photos, it looks like you didn't pull it under load.

[mervifwdc]

I still have and use an amsteel blue rope I bought in 2000. I've used them on hydraulic and electric winches. Basically, you cannot spool them on too tightly. If you have the skills to safely use the winch, you have the skills to tightly spool it on.

Winching the vehicles weight uphill is usually enough, and if the hill is not steep enough, a little bit of the handbrake does the trick.

As to the weight question - these ropes float!

Merv.

[Eventhough]

Quick question:

Do you recommend spooling in under "load"? Basically, dead pulling your rig under load while just spooling in?

For a while there, I just spooled it in with the line laying on the ground and just laid it in the drum all nice a pretty. Then a couple guys flipped out on me about how it "HAS TO BE UNDER LOAD" or something.

So does it matter? From the photos, it looks like you didn't pull it under load.

Yes - spool your synthetic line in under load. The tighter it is would the less chance your line, when under a heavy recovery pull, will pull through line underlying layers and bind up.

[Master-Pull]

I have done it both ways, with Amsteel Blue I used to winch my rig up a slight incline and that worked great. Since I have had Superline XD I have always just used a person or two for body weight on the rope.

-Alex

[Sangster]

As to the weight question - these ropes float!

Merv.

So do cruise boats.

[Hill, Bill E.]

I have done it both ways, with Amsteel Blue I used to winch my rig up a slight incline and that worked great. Since I have had Superline XD I have always just used a person or two for body weight on the rope.

-Alex

Last time I respooled my Superline XD, I had my boy sit in his sled, and I drug him across the yard:elkgrin:

It was a very slow 'thrill' ride!:coffeedrink:


I love the XD, and have never had a problem with it getting stuck within the wraps, even when spooled on hand tight.

All it's ever taken was a good tug by hand to pull it out.

Definitely much easier to do with the covered Superline XD than with non covered synthetic line.

[DamMan]

In response to some questions I have seen online and also ones that we received at the office I thought it would be good to show how to properly spool a synthetic rope on a winch drum.

It's important to make sure you get the rope going the correct way on the drum, on electric winches today the rope wraps under the drum as pictured. You can see where our drum link bolts to the winch and holds the rope in place when it is spooling. Make sure you always leave one full layer of wraps on the drum. This is what secures the rope when winching, the drum link is only there to hold the rope tight when it is being spooled on.

-Alex

Is there another way to attach the rope to a drum that has the drum link bolt? Somewhere I saw a method that ran the rope thru a hole in the drum and then a length of rope along the drum. I am concerned about the link bolt creating an abrasion point but my Warn winch doesn't have a hole in the drum so I am looking for a third alternative.

[opie]

Make a mark in 5.5" from the end you are going to attach to the drum. Lay that end across the drum so the mark you made meets the wall of the drum, either side doesnt matter. Tape the section you laid across to the drum so it will hold fast. Start spooling the line on over the section you laid across the drum. The 5.5" represents the minimum number of wraps you need to keep on the drum at all time. It will vary between 7 and 9 depending on how tight you spool it on and if its 5/16 or 3/8. I tag the end of the line with red electrical tape so that when you see the red tape, you know you need to stop taking line off. No need to count wraps.

I know there are thousands of winches using synthetic line and a side drum attachment without issue. But I would rather eliminate the possibility of the side attachment snagging fibers and prematurely wearing the rope. It works great with wire rope where it will not pull out individual strands as the wire rope will simply slide over it.

[DamMan]

Thank You Kris

[Eventhough]

Is there another way to attach the rope to a drum that has the drum link bolt? Somewhere I saw a method that ran the rope thru a hole in the drum and then a length of rope along the drum. I am concerned about the link bolt creating an abrasion point but my Warn winch doesn't have a hole in the drum so I am looking for a third alternative.

There are several different attachment methods for putting synthetic line on a winch drum. You have the terminal end bolt, or run the line through a pre-made hole in the drum and knot, or what opie describes above which is what I prefer because it works on basically any winch drum. The only thing I change is I use Gorilla Tape to attach the winch line to the drum (I love that stuff) and I also run my tail piece almost the full length of the drum to get extra wraps over it. The downside to a longer tail piece is you have to keep an eye on the total number of wraps you have on the drum but I can deal with that and actually prefer it because if you get lax with your wraps you might not have enough on a short tail piece.

:beer:

[Dgurley2000]

I am concerned about the link bolt creating an abrasion point but my Warn winch doesn't have a hole in the drum so I am looking for a third alternative.

I had this same concern and used Kris' method.

[opie]

There are several different attachment methods for putting synthetic line on a winch drum. You have the terminal end bolt, or run the line through a pre-made hole in the drum and knot, or what opie describes above which is what I prefer because it works on basically any winch drum. The only thing I change is I use Gorilla Tape to attach the winch line to the drum (I love that stuff) and I also run my tail piece almost the full length of the drum to get extra wraps over it. The downside to a longer tail piece is you have to keep an eye on the total number of wraps you have on the drum but I can deal with that and actually prefer it because if you get lax with your wraps you might not have enough on a short tail piece.

:beer:

You could still do this and just put some sort of mark 5.5" away from the drum wall on the side you are going to start spooling.

[Eventhough]

Good idea as a backup to counting the wraps.