Thoughts on Transplants- 300Tdi vs. 3.9 v8

[Dendy Jarrett]

OK, So, I get the drive by wire theory and the simplicity of diesel verses petrol engine, ... but, I know currently of 4 of my rover buds that have done transplants of 300 Tdi's in Discos or Defenders that are having nothing but trouble with them.

One of my buddies got a raw deal - has had his rover in two shops for over a year and is pushing "stupid" money on getting his 300 Tdi transplant sussed out.

I am just wondering why?

Is it really worth it? I have friends who have "good" V8's that have given them many years of trouble free service.

With the price of diesel these days verses gas. When does the investment make sense?

I ask because I have (and still do) contemplate this idea, ... but cannot really see where it makes sense to yank a nice V8. Possibly could see it make sense if an engine install became necessary.

I'd love to get feedback from folks.

Thanks
Dendy

[lwg]

Here's my two cents. A diesel conversion will never be worth it financially unless you keep the truck for something like 10 years. I only know of one 300TDI conversion that didn't seem to work out. Not sure if they just had a buggy engine or if it was overheated in a previous life or what, compared to literally dozens of successful conversions and happy owners. I myself and seriously thinking about doing a TD5 swap in my D2. I ran the numbers and it will take me about 5+ years to recoupe the costs from purely a fuel mileage standpoint. However after the initial capital investment into the powerplant I will have effectively doubled my fuel mileage and cut in half my fuel costs for those 500 mile weekender trips. To me this is much easier on the pocketbook when it comes to planning out a roadtrip financially.

In the end the decision to do the conversion is a very personal one and will depend on your particular situation.

[Rocket Ship]

To properly have this discussion, I think we need more details on what is wrong with your friends' 300's. What is wrong with them, and where did they get them? Only then can we discuss how this should be done properly, and it's relative merits.

The 300 has a reputation for being a reliable and efficient engine in worldwide use, in both civilian and military applications. The V8, does not have that reputation. The 300 is installed by the OEM in these vehicles and swapping one using predominantly factory parts is straight forward. If good quality factory parts are used, you can expect factory reliability. If this isn't the case, then something has gone wrong with the installation, and it is not the fault of the 300 itself.

The fact that diesel fuel is significantly more expensive than gasoline is an anomoly almost unique to the US. The same is not true in other parts of the world. The case for diesel makes more sense if you are driving outside of the US.

http://www.see-search.com/business/fuelandpetrolpriceseurope.htm

It's also not a question simply of cost/mile. Depending on what you're doing with the truck the far greater range of a diesel conversion may be the desired result.

[LtFuzz]

My 6.2 gets about 420-450 miles to a tank. With four jerrycans I could touch 900 miles without seeing a fuel pump. Is that necessary in the U.S.? Probably not. But it's definitely in the "Pro" column where as the built DI/DII, with roughly half the range, sits firmly in the "Con".

Diesel and premium fuel (i.e. what the Rover V8 "requires") are usually within a few cents of each other -- and if you were a serious home-brewer there are quite a few cost-saving blends you could easily manufacture, and quite a few that require very little processing at all -- Eric (REDROVER) recently changed the oil on his RRC 6.2 and then dumped that oil into his gas tank. I couldn't help but think of Waterworld, where Kevin Costner purifies and then drinks his own pee.

The cost of the 300TDI motor itself, not counting the conversion, is prohibitive to me and makes it difficult to justify beyond it being a very cool and "correct" conversion; while perhaps not intrinsic to the vehicle I think there is quite a bit of value in that alone, especially for 4x4 people (and even moreso for Rover people).

If you post a for sale ad on any 4x4 site and your title includes "Model X w/Diesel Conversion" you're going to get at least double the views, in my experience. There is just a great overall level of interest in 4x4 diesels that aren't pickups. Some of that is the mythology surrounding diesels, I think: by and large the consensus -- even zeitgeist -- in the 4x4 community is that a diesel is much easier to maintain and much less likely to fail. Certainly not true in every case (witness the VW TDi cam failures that have been grenading $40k Jettas and Passats for the last few years) but certainly longevity and economy are two inherent characteristics of a diesel.

And if you're considering a long distance trip into truly remote areas the investment could be considered mandatory. That will never be an issue for 99% of us -- but isn't part of Land Rover ownership having that feeling that you could? :)

[lwg]

And if you're considering a long distance trip into truly remote areas the investment could be considered mandatory. That will never be an issue for 99% of us -- but isn't part of Land Rover ownership having that feeling that you could? :)

Truer words have never been spoken!

[Rocket Ship]

My 6.2 gets about 420-450 miles to a tank. With four jerrycans I could touch 900 miles without seeing a fuel pump. Is that necessary in the U.S.? Probably not. But it's definitely in the "Pro" column where as the built DI/DII, with roughly half the range, sits firmly in the "Con".


But there's a counterpoint to this. Sometimes having a diesel engine *requires* you to have longer range. Sometimes it can be hard to find diesel. Up here, in the middle of nowhere, you can often buy gas from outfitters, airports and snowmobile rest stops. But they don't have diesel. With a 900 mile range it's not likely to be something to worry about, unless you really didn't plan your trip well. But it's worth mentioning.


And if you're considering a long distance trip into truly remote areas the investment could be considered mandatory. That will never be an issue for 99% of us -- but isn't part of Land Rover ownership having that feeling that you could?

+2

[DividingCreek]

A year in the shop throwing stupid money @ something sounds very suspect. I have a customer truck here that in my spare time I have been working on for a year but I'm also financing a lot of the parts being bolted to the truck, I'm also not a shop. This is a reverse- diesel to v8 conversion, and the scope of the project has changed several times. The tdi's are incredibly simple engines. Over on the d90 board a guy on a trip from San Diego to Alaska overheated, blew his head gasket, and dissasembled the engine, had the head shaved, and put it back together in a friends drive way in a day and a half having never done the job before. It took them 2.5 hrs to have the engine in half.

[Snagger]

It makes sense to do the swap if you have a problem with the existing engine and it needs to be extensively overhauled or replaced, but otherwise is probably not worth the effort and expense. The 300Tdi is a good engine (I have one in my RRC), but is not as smooth or powerful as the V8. It has its advantages of the 200Tdi (I have one of those in my 109), but has its weaknesses too, notably its thinner head and issues with head gaskets and P gaskets. While it's much more refined than a 200Tdi, it's not as tough. performance is similar and both are markedly lower than what you're currently used to. Both will give about 30-35mpg in a clean Discovery if driven frugally and both are pretty reliable. The big advantage compared to a V8 is their indifference to water - as long as it doesn't go down the intake in large quantities, then the engine doesn't even notice water splashing around, unlike the V8 which is extremely allergic to water.

[dcwhybrew]

A year ago, I evaluated whether to convert the engine in my 91 RR to a 300TDi. I decided against it. No matter how you tweak the facts, the costs of the conversion vs the improved fuel economy doesnt pay for itself. As mentioned above, diesel isnt available in many remote locations in the US - gas is. It's not the Rover V8 that is the problem, its all the crap that is bolted on to it. The Rover v8 and drive line are very reliable (until you start exceeding their capabilities - which is true with any drive train).

When I was thinking about my conversion, I spoke to my former LR Master mechanic in Las Vegas, NV, Bill Goodman. Bill is from the UK and has driven plenty of 200 and 300 TDis. He agreed with the simplicity, but said they're old, they're slow, they're hard to find parts for in the us (probably easier now thanks to RN and DAP). Bill's honest suggestions were;

1) stick with the Rover V8 and upgrade to a 4.6 if a new engine was necessary.
2) if I really really wanted to do a conversion, go with the chevy 350 (LS1???) conversion. That engine has proven reliable. Yes there are failure stories with the sbc 350, but the % compared of the number produced is extremly low. Plus with the Chevy, you get the increased horsepower, better reliability, parts availability, and similar (if not better) fuel economy on regular unleaded gas (.20 cents cheaper per gallon than premium).

It seems to me that the diesel conversions are purely do to the uniqueness and romance of having a diesel. Yes, they seem to go on for ever (mileage longevity) but so too are gasoline engines. And if you do the conversion, you'd probably be hard pressed to find a mechanic who hasn't worked on a 350 v8. Especially out in the boonies.

LOL, so I took the option not mentioned and sold my 91 RR along with my POS 06 F350 PSD, and subsequently my 99 E320 and bought a LR3. Should have kept the 91 RR and 99 E320. Oh well.

[dcarr1971]

I've day dreamed about doing diesel conversion on my D2 ever since getting it over a year ago. Pretty early on I concluded given the expense and the current emissions regulations in my state (PA) there was no way a conversion would ever be practical. I've concluded that by the time I would put away the $$$ to do it correctly, I'll be able to just import a Defender 110 with a 200 TDI...

[Rocket Ship]

It's not the Rover V8 that is the problem, its all the crap that is bolted on to it.

I completley disagree. The Rover V8 engine is a terrible design. GM abandoned it in the 60's, Rover thought they could fix the casting problems, but obviously they didn't. The only reliable bits are the new Bosch electronics bolted onto the Thor engine. The fuel efficiency is crap, and it requires premium fuel to boot. It was no joke that it was mentioned in Cars 2.

[I Leak Oil]

Only reason to do a diesel swap here in North America is for the cool factor. And yes, they are cool. Otherwise, gas is far easier to find and the range thing can be overcome in other ways (bigger tank, carry less crapola, more gas cans, don't be lazy and just stop more often). With that said, I can't wait to swap my gasser for the 2.5L diesel I'm working on! I love the sound of tractor engines!:elkgrin:

[DividingCreek]

I have a 96 D1 with 86k and the block has a scored cylinder. My dilema is I can probably buy and import the stuff to convert it to tdi for about the same as a decent "known" used 4.6

[LtFuzz]

Otherwise, gas is far easier to find and the range thing can be overcome in other ways (bigger tank, carry less crapola, more gas cans, don't be lazy and just stop more often).

You're not overcoming the Rover V8s fuel consumption. You're carrying more gas at the expense of other stuff you might enjoy or even need.

[Rovertrader]

As you know I have had several Tdis w/o issue. My suggestion to success is to drive the donor first, period. This has not failed me yet. The payback in fuel is there, but takes time, aka miles- 30mpg vs 12mpg, so almost 3x the range immediately. I am not a fan of the lower power, but am a bit impatient. A 130 pulling a trailer up the mtn in 3rd gear about puts me over the edge. Conversely, sailing across the States in 110 Tdi at 75mph getting 28mpg is a hoot for sure. Cool factor, undeniable- but why? Only because we don't have them here. Me personally, the SBC is the answer- power, economy, reliability, parts availability. The only negative, is the resale. Whilst a great option, not pure Rover heritage, and thus poor resale. My 130 project has a new SBC and I have a nice 200 looking for a home and tempted to utilize it, but a 130 with 300 hp, and return 18 to 20 mpg is hard to beat... We all want what we don't/can't have, and as such, there are associated issues- parts, poor engines from who knows where, etc. I still love the pic of Doug's 130 Tdi running with a hole in the block- that is solid!!!

[lwg]

I have a 96 D1 with 86k and the block has a scored cylinder. My dilema is I can probably buy and import the stuff to convert it to tdi for about the same as a decent "known" used 4.6

This is becoming increasingly true as good 4.6 bits are getting harder and harder to find at reasonable prices. Since we have the labor for the conversion in house I expect my TD5 conversion to costs about the same as a built 4.6L, hopefully yeilding much better mileage and power at altitude (we're at 4K feet).

[DividingCreek]

I'm sure you already know this but td5s rock.

[Dendy Jarrett]

Well, as you all (that know me) - know, I am a fan of the 300 Tdi, I just wanted to pose the question. Again, Lt. Fuzz knows- issues with diesels running extremely hot and needing a much larger cooling system.
Dale, you have experienced (as you mention) the sluggish power when towing.
There is a guy on D-90 right now that has been working for 4 weeks to get his newly transplanted 300 Tdi to even run.
I knew Rover V8s run hot, but never had a clue that 300 Tdis had this issue.

I know when I had the Classic, that the radiator shop that does all the recores for Land Rover Nashville, explained to me that the tubing in the Radiators for Discovery I's and Classics were too small a diameter to keep the engine adequately cooled. When they rebuilt the radiator in the Classic, they raised the tube diameter in the radiator, and that truck ran half the temp it ran before the radiator rebuild. (and yes, it had no problem producing plenty of heat for the heater).

So, all of this was posed just to find opinions and points of view regarding the Petrol vs. Diesel.

The answers thus far- interesting to say the least. So far, the "ego cool" quotient is reigning high.

D

[dcwhybrew]

[LQUOTE=DividingCreek;926419]I'm sure you already know this but td5s rock.[/QUOTE]

LOL...quit being a tease Doug!

Hey, can you post up that pic/video of the 300 running with a hole in it? Or link o it? I'd like to see that.

[Rocket Ship]

Again, Lt. Fuzz knows- issues with diesels running extremely hot and needing a much larger cooling system.

I think it's more accurate to say that large, inefficient diesels run extremely hot. Small, efficient diesels have trouble making enough heat to warm the interior of the car. Some vehicles in Europe have small auxiliary diesel fired heaters to make heat in the winter.


'm sure you already know this but td5s rock.

I'm curious to know your thinking on this. I'm happy with the 300 in my 110, and am planning on eventually fitting one into my D2. The Td5 is significantly more work, so what advantages does it offer, besides easy and cheap power upgrades? What is repair-ability like when off the beaten path? The Td5 in the D2 has a dual-mass flywheel which I would not fit in a vehicle used off-road for a number of reasons. I understand there are single mass flywheels available on the market which many are opting for due to failures of the original.

[DividingCreek]

The 300 that ran hot in my example was one where some one installed an electric fan and screwed it up to run backwards. Tdi's run cold as cucumbers. The point was a guy who bought the truck that way was able to fix it and get back on the road easier and faster than would have been the case with a v8.
Parts aren't an issue.
Most don't even need fans if kept moving. In winter I have to drive the 300 several miles under load to get heat. Letting it idle in the driveway does nothing but waste fuel.

[Snagger]

I think it's more accurate to say that large, inefficient diesels run extremely hot. Small, efficient diesels have trouble making enough heat to warm the interior of the car. Some vehicles in Europe have small auxiliary diesel fired heaters to make heat in the winter.



I'm curious to know your thinking on this. I'm happy with the 300 in my 110, and am planning on eventually fitting one into my D2. The Td5 is significantly more work, so what advantages does it offer, besides easy and cheap power upgrades? What is repair-ability like when off the beaten path? The Td5 in the D2 has a dual-mass flywheel which I would not fit in a vehicle used off-road for a number of reasons. I understand there are single mass flywheels available on the market which many are opting for due to failures of the original.Tdis are considered to be cool running, and over here there are plenty of idiots telling others to remove the fan or replace it with an electric fan, but the viscous units do a great job. The heater in my RRC works brilliantly from the Tdi (even though the viscous unit is seized and the fan turning at full effect), the Defender heater in my 109 struggling by comparison with a Tdi in the engine bay - it's the heater, not the engine which is the problem here -even though I had to replace the viscous fan with an electric unit on the 109 because the Discovery 200Tdi engine's fan is too low and close to the cross member and brake lines in a 109 conversion. A Defender 200Tdi has a different front end (just the timing case and water pump) with a higher mounted fan, so would have been better, but would also have cost five times more to buy as they are so in demand for retro-fits here. So, Tdis run at a reasonable temperature - warm enough that a decent heater will work well, not so hot that they struggle unless the vehicle is at very low speed and high work load for protracted periods and has had its fan removed.

The TD5 has more performance but is less refined than the 300Tdi, which is why the DII needed a dual mass flywheel (prone to failure, so LR sell a retro-fit solid flywheel and conventional clutch plate kit) and mass damper on the back of the LT230 transfer box. It also uses more fuel than the Tdi. The ECU has been known to cause some issues, mainly the oil migration in the harness or submersion in vehicles where the unit had not been water proofed or moved by the owner, but also allows easier tuning. Defender TD5s tend to be in good condition, but DII TD5 engines suffer much more frequent warped manifolds and sheared studs because the turbo already runs a higher and longer boost than the Defender (I believe the hardware is identical and that it's just an ECU setting). Get a chipped or remapped DII engine and you're almost guaranteed to have manifold trouble sooner or later.

The TD5 is an engine that runs very cool. DIIs have Webasto auxiliary heaters tucked into the front bumper to make the heater effective (TD4 Freelanders have the same thing too). Defenders didn't get this addition and their heaters are very ineffective. They also have a fuel heat exchanger to cool the fuel on its way back to the tank due to the high pressures in the injection system. Its common rail injection system is not tolerant of low quality diesel abd will not accept vegoil or other substitutes.

For what it's worth, diesels are most certainly not viewed as cool over here - they're practical and comparatively economical, with diesel costing a little more than petrol but going that much further, but everyone loves the V8 powered Land Rovers for their performance and gorgeous sound. The clatter and vibration of a diesel may suit a Defender, but it's unpleasant and out of place on a Discovery or RR. Don't make the decision based on what is perceived as "cool" - that sort of vanity is in itself very "uncool"! Make the decision based on vehicle requirements and cost.

[DoKarider16]

I currently own a 93 RRC with a 300tdi in it. It was done by one of the top Rover Shops in Portland Oregon and was actually the owners personal rig. I probably paid about twice as much for the Rover because of the TDI but our whole family loves it. The range is one of the biggest things, but I also enjoy the sound and feel of the diesel. It is great to be able to get 22-24mpg with the roof top tent and bikes on the back. I have never seen the 30mpg that people throw around as possible numbers. I would guess with the roof rack off I could maybe see 27mpg. The diesel being more than gas argument doesn't really hold water since you need to run super in the rover v8's and in our neck of the woods super and diesel is usually pretty close in price. Power wise, it does really well, but is not quite as peppy as the 3.9. Some patience in hills is needed but I am not the most patient person and it has not been hard to live with.

I have seen some Hot Rod shows about putting the Chevy LS1's into rock crawlers and talking about mid 20's for mileage. Something like that would be very interesting. I also think one of the earlier VW TDI motors would be an interesting idea as they can put out 140hp with almost double that in torque and would weigh at least half of what the 300tdi does.

The biggest draw to the tdi for me is that it actually came in this model so the conversion is not some big Frankenkit developed in someones garage. The power is not overwhelming but acceptable and the mileage is really unheard of in a comparably priced, full size, off road capable vehicle.

If I had a broken Rover, I would do it in a heart beat. If I had a good running V8, I don't think it would be worth the time, money and hassle.

hope this helps
Craig

[Snagger]

My RRC manages well over 30mpg, usually about 35, on long runs. That is Imperial gallons, not US gallons, though, and someone said that diesel in the UK is of higher quality, giving better economy. I also don't have any exterior accessories other than running boards and have a manual (R380) gear box. That's running on 235/70 BFG ATKOs - 205 road tyres would return better mpg, as does using the premium diesel (about 6p/litre dearer, but works out the best part of 5% more mpg than when I use regular Shell or BP diesel and 10% compared to supermarket brand diesel).

[Wander]

Interesting thread Dendy, I see this issue down the road for me as well.

I am glad that sbc 350's where mentioned, I've wondered why that doesn't come up more often. Is that a difficult conversion in which it will just never totally work or not? Are there other diesel options that can be swapped in sucessfully?

[LtFuzz]

From what I'm gathering here (and from other discussions I've seen or had in the past), and with all things being equal -- i.e. all vehicles on same fuel type at same altitude with the same gallon type -- the diesel application doesn't seem to affect fuel economy as much as the body type and level of build.

Lightly built Defenders seem to average mid to high 20 mpg with 200/300/TD5, built and loaded drops them down into mid 20s. Ditto for Discos/RRCs with same motors with slightly more drop.

The Cummins 4B guys on 4BTswaps.com have gotten as high as 35 mpg on 33"s, but with 3.00 or 3.25 gears. They drop right back down into the low to mid 20s using more conventional 4x4 ratios. 6.2 guys are getting low 20s and the Isuzu 4BD guys a little more than that. I haven't seen a 6.5 swap into a Rover but I imagine it would also be similar. 2.8 TGV diesel also firmly in the mid 20s.

I don't have a huge sampling pool, and most of it is anecdotal (as most mpg figures are) -- but my impression is that not matter what the frame, i.e. D90/110, D1, DII or RRC with a mild to moderate build/load (somewhere between a CT truck and a locked brute on 33"s) you're going to plop pretty reliably between 21-25 mpg no matter the motor you choose. Defenders appear to be slightly more frugal in their consumption but certainly not profoundly so when carrying a similar load.

Interesting because a lot of these motors vary considerably in terms of weight, with the 200/300s being much lighter than a 4B, 4BD or 6.2. Yet once you pull them out of their very narrow peak efficiency zone (in terms of power:weight) by building them, you've basically removed any fuel economy advantage and leveled the playing field completely. And ultimately the discussion becomes academic when you're comparing 22 mpg to 24 mpg -- but the point underneath all of this is the importance of the cost per mile ratio, particularly the cost of the original purchase (or conversion). If you want a diesel Land Rover and plan to build it to an average of the builds seen on this forum (i.e. basic armor, bumper(s), roof rack, 31-32" ATs, a locker or two and a couple hundred pounds worth of accessories inside) you could pick any of the motors above and achieve roughly the same fuel economy.

[KenR]

I've already decided on a SBC when the 4.0L dies in my DII. Parts are cheap, mileage and power are better and they're more reliable than the LR engine. I just don't see an acceptable payback with the diesel, as much as I wish it were so.

I have to research adapter kits, but plan on ordering a very mild long block right out of the GM Performance Parts book when the day comes. The only downside that I can see is some view conversions like this very critically when it comes to re-sale - I'm one that would definitely be looking veerrrry closely at who did the conversion and how well it was done. Then again, I don't really plan on selling this rig. Also, if you ever planned on registering the car in California you could have trouble with swaps and conversions.

[Wander]

That is true about resale, I recall a very nice looking CT clone that was built from an XD (I think) but it has a 4.3 vortec V6 under the bonnet. Good engine for sure but he was having a time selling it and taking all kinds of cheap shots. I don't know how it worked out for him.

[leeawalden]

there is a guy up here that is putting a TD5 into an 04 DII. Should be an awesome setup.

[dcwhybrew]

...I am glad that sbc 350's where mentioned, I've wondered why that doesn't come up more often. Is that a difficult conversion in which it will just never totally work or not? Are there other diesel options that can be swapped in sucessfully?

Just my opinion, but I believe the answer is (among the Rover crowd) SBC 350s arent as sexy or interesting as 350s. SBC 350s are kind of "vanilla" here in the US. "they're every where/'everyone' has them." I think the diesel trend for rovers in the US started because Rover owners are enamored with ROW options. Rovers run on small diesel engines everywhere else, and over here they're unique. I think that's why everyone is talking about them, planning/doing the conversions.

As stated previously, once you run the performance and cost numbers, the diesel conversion really doesnt make sense on paper. It's just a cool or novel thing to do. That doesnt mean they dont work, I'm just saying the conversions don't justify themselves. If someone has the money, go for it and enjoy it (i certainly enjoy reading the treads and results, applauding the efforts). But lets not make the conversions into something they aren't.

[dcwhybrew]

I've already decided on a SBC when the 4.0L dies in my DII. Parts are cheap, mileage and power are better and they're more reliable than the LR engine. I just don't see an acceptable payback with the diesel, as much as I wish it were so.

I have to research adapter kits, but plan on ordering a very mild long block right out of the GM Performance Parts book when the day comes. The only downside that I can see is some view conversions like this very critically when it comes to re-sale - I'm one that would definitely be looking veerrrry closely at who did the conversion and how well it was done. Then again, I don't really plan on selling this rig. Also, if you ever planned on registering the car in California you could have trouble with swaps and conversions.
This should help you.

http://www.marks4wd.com/products/engine-trans-conversions/RR-Chevy-Holden-LS1-LS2-LS3-V8.html

I think you have to have a new fuel injection system too????

[dcwhybrew]

there is a guy up here that is putting a TD5 into an 04 DII. Should be an awesome setup.

How is he going to get it registered since that vehicle isnt old enough to be exempt? I hope they dont live in one of the counties that has emission testing.

[leeawalden]

the truck is going back to WV after the TD5 goes in.

edit: however, TN is the only state I've ever lived in that you have to go through emissions...stupid. And its not even every county in the state.

[Rocket Ship]

I've already decided on a SBC when the 4.0L dies in my DII. Parts are cheap, mileage and power are better and they're more reliable than the LR engine. I just don't see an acceptable payback with the diesel, as much as I wish it were so.

I have to research adapter kits, but plan on ordering a very mild long block right out of the GM Performance Parts book when the day comes. The only downside that I can see is some view conversions like this very critically when it comes to re-sale - I'm one that would definitely be looking veerrrry closely at who did the conversion and how well it was done. Then again, I don't really plan on selling this rig. Also, if you ever planned on registering the car in California you could have trouble with swaps and conversions.

How is a SBC conversion using a crate motor going to be cheaper than a 300tdi swap? You can get a 300tdi, fully rebuilt, with a swap kit for about $5000. The SBC, what are you going to spend? $3000 for the motor. $1000+ for adaptors. Easily $1000+ for all the other bits you'll need (custom motor mounts, radiator, A/C plumbing, exhaust, etc.). Plus money for a custom fuel injection setup.

The reason that the LR diesel swap is so popular is not just because it's cool. It's also a known quantity. Got a hole in your rad in the middle of nowhere? Have a new OEM rad air freighted out to you. No fuss, no muss.

I love SBC's, but in this application, I think they only make sense if you need a new engine, and you want horsepower. If you can live with 120-200hp, then a small LR diesel makes the most sense. It's not going to save you money, unless you're doing it junkyard-style.


there is a guy up here that is putting a TD5 into an 04 DII. Should be an awesome setup.

More info please. Disco or Defender TD5? (Defender version has less electronics to try and tie-in). Is he doing it piece-meal, or did he have a cut-up TD5 D2 shipped over from Europe?


Interesting because a lot of these motors vary considerably in terms of weight, with the 200/300s being much lighter than a 4B, 4BD or 6.2. Yet once you pull them out of their very narrow peak efficiency zone (in terms of power:weight) by building them, you've basically removed any fuel economy advantage and leveled the playing field completely. And ultimately the discussion becomes academic when you're comparing 22 mpg to 24 mpg -- but the point underneath all of this is the importance of the cost per mile ratio, particularly the cost of the original purchase (or conversion). If you want a diesel Land Rover and plan to build it to an average of the builds seen on this forum (i.e. basic armor, bumper(s), roof rack, 31-32" ATs, a locker or two and a couple hundred pounds worth of accessories inside) you could pick any of the motors above and achieve roughly the same fuel economy.


I'm sure driving style also plays a factor. I can get 18mpg out of a moderately built D2. Most guys claim 13 or worse. That's the same kinda difference between getting 22 or 30 on a diesel. I have seen diesel Land Rover guys leave them idling for hours at shows... I think just to show off that they have a diesel. Everybody drives differently.

[dcwhybrew]

How is a SBC conversion using a crate motor going to be cheaper than a 300tdi swap? You can get a 300tdi, fully rebuilt, with a swap kit for about $5000. The SBC, what are you going to spend? $3000 for the motor. $1000+ for adaptors. Easily $1000+ for all the other bits you'll need (custom motor mounts, radiator, A/C plumbing, exhaust, etc.). Plus money for a custom fuel injection setup..

A brand new LS1 may be $1,000, but you can get a rebuilt LS1 for less than $1,000 in the US. The 300TDi you mentioned will be old, and may be rebuilt. Remember the 300TDi parts arent readily available in the US. In the US you can walk in to any Autozone, OReilley's, or name the auto parts store, and get the LS1 parts (ANYWHERE in the US). Not so with the TDI.


The reason that the LR diesel swap is so popular is not just because it's cool. It's also a known quantity. Got a hole in your rad in the middle of nowhere? Have a new OEM rad air freighted out to you. No fuss, no muss...

Dont forget that we're talking US applications here. LR TDis, or any foreign TDI for that matter, arent known quantities in the US. Theoretically, people doing the swaps (or thinking about the swaps) are wanting to go to remote areas where there are only small towns. So again, as you mentioned, if you have a break down, with a TDI (and even the LR V8) you'll have to have parts flown in from a parts source. At least with a Rover V8, a dealership is located in just about every state in the union. Parts become much more simple to source with a SBC LS1.

[QUOTE=Rocket Ship;929350]I love SBC's, but in this application, I think they only make sense if you need a new engine, and you want horsepower. If you can live with 120-200hp, then a small LR diesel makes the most sense. It's not going to save you money, unless you're doing it junkyard-style.[QUOTE]

Any engine swap only makes sense if you actually need a new engine. What LR diesel produces 200hp?

[dcwhybrew]

the truck is going back to WV after the TD5 goes in.

edit: however, TN is the only state I've ever lived in that you have to go through emissions...stupid. And its not even every county in the state.

Many other states are similar. My other experiences are AZ and NV. Hell I lived in southern Clark County, NV and didnt have to go through emissions. But, if I moved to Las Vegas, I believe I would have to. AZ doesnt have emissions testing in the rural areas, but if you live in Maricopa County (phoenix), you do. I believe Tucson too.

[Viggen]

I hope this is all talk about a newer LSx motor and not the old, heavy lump of a motor 350. A used 300tdi setup (motor, trans, rad) can be had for around $3000-$3800 with mileage above 50k plus shipping. You can pick up a GM 4.8 or 5.3 LSx from any wrecked pickup with a transmission for under $1500 with low miles. They make fantastic power, are tough as nails and with the 4L80E transmission, they return great mileage. Fuel injection doesnt have to be custom as its a GM and numerous companies make plug and play harness and ecu systems using stock sensors that are already there. Not that tough to set up and many are able to self tune based on the sensors. Get a Toyota splitcase transfer case (readily available, super tough, offset drive and adapters available off the shelf here in the US) and youve got a drivetrain. Might even be able to get away with a quality recored/ rebuilt stock rad. If you can put in the work of figuring out mountings, it can be done.

Sure, parts are available anywhere but I dont necessarily buy into that argument though. Having owned a vehicle with a motor that was not available in the States, I never ran into a parts issue. I could get what I needed through a couple major suppliers here in the States and I drove it everywhere. One thing you have to remember is a mechanical diesel doesnt need much. Pumps are easily rebuilt by an injection shop. Injectors, even when cold erroded and dripping, will still get you there. Thats about it. I think, barring freak mechanical failure, when youre running a 200/ 300 or any other mechanical diesel, you dont need that ready parts supply. You dont worry about spark plugs, ignition leads, distributors or coil packs, crank position sensors, O2 sensors, MAF, coolant temp sensors...you see where Im going with this?

Running a modern V8, which you would have to to go through an emissions inspection in many states, you now have a HUGE list of things that can go wrong. On a diesel, that list drops dramatically. I carry a pump diaphragm, an old set of glow plugs and, well, thats about it.

Sure, a diesel swap is expensive but once you have taken one off road where a lot of low revs are required, or worked on one, you wont understand the appeal. Its not just for fuel economy. Thats just a plus. Its more for the total package. You wont win a drag race but when you add all of it together, its far better than a V8.

[Rocket Ship]

A brand new LS1 may be $1,000, but you can get a rebuilt LS1 for less than $1,000 in the US. The 300TDi you mentioned will be old, and may be rebuilt. Remember the 300TDi parts arent readily available in the US. In the US you can walk in to any Autozone, OReilley's, or name the auto parts store, and get the LS1 parts (ANYWHERE in the US). Not so with the TDI.



I don't argue with the parts availability. I'm just waiting for some of these places to set up vending machines with SBC pistons, rods, etc, out-front for after-hours service. :coffeedrink:

I don't know about those prices though, of course I haven't seriously looked. The cheapest fully assembled long-block SBC I can find on Summit Racing is $6000. A crate LS3 from GM Performance is $7500.


LR TDis, or any foreign TDI for that matter, arent known quantities in the US.

No, they are known. Put a TD5 in a D2, and you can use the Rave manual to diagnose it, and any place in the UK has parts diagrams. Same deal for a 300TDI into a D1 or Defender. And I'm assuming you either do the swap yourself, and so you understand it intimately, or you paid a capable person to do it, who can offer phone support as well.


At least with a Rover V8, a dealership is located in just about every state in the union. Parts become much more simple to source with a SBC LS1.



In Canada, the dealers don't even stock pinion seals so, this is a moot point for me. Everything is at least overnight anyway.


What LR diesel produces 200hp?

A tuned TD5.

[Nonimouse]

To be honest for us guys in Europe looking over the pond it's a no brainer.

Your petrol is so damn cheap!

I run a 200Tdi. It's a superb engine. IMHO the best Land Rover engine. Mine is tweeked and looked after like a baby. But if I could afford to I would have a V8. I love them, love their little habits and foibles. But I have kids to feed and clothe and at £1.38 a litre and 22mpg(imp) at best it's not happening.

If I could afford the fuel I would build up a nice 3.5 with a 3.9 cam. I'd do a personal build with a decent after market injection system, SD1 heads, worked cast iron manifolds, electric water pump, better oil pump.... A 3.5 is will run on cr&p fuel, has no liner issues, has more than enough grunt etc

Mind you a 3.9 would do

Fitting an LS1 is a down hill slide. New gearbox, new diffs, new half shafts etc etc etc

Anyhow, I'll stick to my 200Tdi

[Dendy Jarrett]

Nonimouse wrote:
"But if I could afford to I would have a V8. I love them, love their little habits and foibles. But I have kids to feed and clothe and at £1.38 a litre and 22mpg(imp) at best it's not happening."

... and that in a nut shell just about sums this up! We all seem to want what we cannot have (or aren't supposed to be able to have). We lust after 200 and 300 Tdis, and yet in the UK, they wish they could have our V8s.
Everyone around here that are Land Rover enthusiast are saying, "yeah, but your truck becomes worth so much more when it has the 300 Tdi in it". That only matters if I were looking to sell the truck and make a hefty profit.
DO, I think that I am gonna just be happy with the V8 and when and if the time comes that she bites the dust, ... I'll re-evaluate.

[Roverx]

Hey Dendy,

I just love how you stir the pot. As we live 20 min apart and I own two 300tdi and pretty much know the same people you do. Except for Chris, who has had tdi issues? His issue was directly related to the person who installed it. It's a shame it happened but that was not a 300tdi issue but an installer issue.

As for a Land Rover V8. I don't want to over estimate this but is their a person who has owned one and not had an issue?? hahaha Ok but seriously,

For what it's worth. I currently own two 300tdi's and am building a 3rd. I have also owned several rover V8's. I built the first 300 tdi from parts just over 8 1/2 years ago ( defender hybrid) and it has over 125K on it w/o issues. The second is 96 Saudi Spec Disco 1 that was just completed. The third is a defender I'm building with my son. W/O getting into which is better, as a 300tdi and V8 both have up and down sides, this is what I know IMHO if you want to do the swap. As for the Td5 or 2.8 I don't know enough to speak about them.

1: If you are doing this for fuel economy you will almost never see the savings. Most people use their rover as a toy and only cover about 5 k plus a year. I do about 15K a year.
Milage is good not great and will always be better with a stick. My 02 jetta tdi gets 50mpg plus. The best I have ever gotten in a 300 tdi is 28mpg (US gallon) in the defender. That was on the highway, at 55-60 mph max w/ 33" tires in the winter. My average is 23-24 mpg which is better than a Rover V8 any day of the week. My V8 averaged 14 mpg and the best I ever saw was 19mpg highway. As premium unleaded and diesel fuel are pretty much the same the cost is a wash. Having driven around a good portion of the US I have never had any issue finding diesel. Not sure what that was about?

2: Power in a 300tdi is well ?? it's not a V8 and thats for sure. Yes, you can tune it up a bit, add larger intercooler, pump timing etc and be very happy but it is what it is a truck plain and simple. It was never intended to be a sports car. If you want to pull a full size camper, horse trailer etc get a Ford, Dodge or GM pickup. You will be much happier. If on the other hand you want to off road and have a small 1000- 1500lb trailer you will be fine. Again, the right tool for the job.

3: Conversion cost depends greatly on where you get the motor. Granted it will never be less that swapping out a V8. Swapping out a V8 is a pretty straight forward and parts are cheap. Having said this, a 300Tdi in any rover in the US market will always be worth more than a comparable rover with a V8. They are few and far between and command a price. As for sourcing a 300tdi, do your homework! Both companies I dealt with offered a 30 -60 day warranty. I will start with the position that you are getting a used motor as new 300tdi are few and far between. My experience is that a complete 300tdi drivetrain can be purchased for between 3K - 10K plus shipping. Average milage on this type of used motor is 75k -125K You also need to factor in additional parts,timing belt kit, hoses, belts, lift pump, clutch etc so add in another $1000 - $2000. The best route is to purchase a running vehicle, have the service work done i.e. timing belt etc and have the entire drivetrain pulled. This is not the cheapest but best way to avoid headaches. You end up get everything you need to plug and play.

4:Installation: An average mechanic with a good selection of tool can complete the swap within two months with help from friends. If you are paying someone, average cost is between $3500. $8K and should take a about two weeks.

5: Parts availability is pretty good even in the US. I can get 90% of all parts within 24 hours. Between RN,AB,RDS,Safari rovers and many others, parts are not an issue. I also personally stock a complete extra set of belt,hoses,alternator, lift pump,gasket kit etc. This is just common sense for any owner non US spec vehicle.

6: The life span of an average V8 is about 175K maybe a bit more before they typically need a complete overhaul. 300Tdi should see at least 300k plus before major overhaul. They are not bomb proof but tend to fair much better that a rover V8.

7:Simplicity. The 300tdi is dead simple to work on. It's a one wire system, no computers, no electrical fiddle faddle. If something is wrong 9 times out of 10 it's fuel related.

This conversion is not for everyone. Personally, I love diesel vehicles and that is a big draw for me. I also love driving them off road. All I can say is after 8 1/2 years of driving a 300tdi everyday, the problems have been few and far between, were as my V8 Land Rovers have kept me busy with a never ending stream of issues. Best of luck with whatever to drive and hope to see you on the trail.

Cheers
Scott

[jrose609]

Good post, Scott. You summed up very nicely what I would have said. I love my Tdi, and I would do the conversion again in a heartbeat.

[Rocket Ship]

I have never had any issue finding diesel. Not sure what that was about?

Depends where you're going. My last trip had over 600km between diesel fuel pumps. Not insurmountable, but it's something to think about.

[Bugspray]

I get about 25-26 mpg 400 mile range with the converted 4bd1t in my DII.

Don't care....life is short drive what you want.

[dcwhybrew]

Hey Dendy,

I just love how you stir the pot. As we live 20 min apart and I own two 300tdi and pretty much know the same people you do. Except for Chris, who has had tdi issues? His issue was directly related to the person who installed it. It's a shame it happened but that was not a 300tdi issue but an installer issue.

As for a Land Rover V8. I don't want to over estimate this but is their a person who has owned one and not had an issue?? hahaha Ok but seriously,

For what it's worth. I currently own two 300tdi's and am building a 3rd. I have also owned several rover V8's. I built the first 300 tdi from parts just over 8 1/2 years ago ( defender hybrid) and it has over 125K on it w/o issues. The second is 96 Saudi Spec Disco 1 that was just completed. The third is a defender I'm building with my son. W/O getting into which is better, as a 300tdi and V8 both have up and down sides, this is what I know IMHO if you want to do the swap. As for the Td5 or 2.8 I don't know enough to speak about them.

1: If you are doing this for fuel economy you will almost never see the savings. Most people use their rover as a toy and only cover about 5 k plus a year. I do about 15K a year.
Milage is good not great and will always be better with a stick. My 02 jetta tdi gets 50mpg plus. The best I have ever gotten in a 300 tdi is 28mpg (US gallon) in the defender. That was on the highway, at 55-60 mph max w/ 33" tires in the winter. My average is 23-24 mpg which is better than a Rover V8 any day of the week. My V8 averaged 14 mpg and the best I ever saw was 19mpg highway. As premium unleaded and diesel fuel are pretty much the same the cost is a wash. Having driven around a good portion of the US I have never had any issue finding diesel. Not sure what that was about?

2: Power in a 300tdi is well ?? it's not a V8 and thats for sure. Yes, you can tune it up a bit, add larger intercooler, pump timing etc and be very happy but it is what it is a truck plain and simple. It was never intended to be a sports car. If you want to pull a full size camper, horse trailer etc get a Ford, Dodge or GM pickup. You will be much happier. If on the other hand you want to off road and have a small 1000- 1500lb trailer you will be fine. Again, the right tool for the job.

3: Conversion cost depends greatly on where you get the motor. Granted it will never be less that swapping out a V8. Swapping out a V8 is a pretty straight forward and parts are cheap. Having said this, a 300Tdi in any rover in the US market will always be worth more than a comparable rover with a V8. They are few and far between and command a price. As for sourcing a 300tdi, do your homework! Both companies I dealt with offered a 30 -60 day warranty. I will start with the position that you are getting a used motor as new 300tdi are few and far between. My experience is that a complete 300tdi drivetrain can be purchased for between 3K - 10K plus shipping. Average milage on this type of used motor is 75k -125K You also need to factor in additional parts,timing belt kit, hoses, belts, lift pump, clutch etc so add in another $1000 - $2000. The best route is to purchase a running vehicle, have the service work done i.e. timing belt etc and have the entire drivetrain pulled. This is not the cheapest but best way to avoid headaches. You end up get everything you need to plug and play.

4:Installation: An average mechanic with a good selection of tool can complete the swap within two months with help from friends. If you are paying someone, average cost is between $3500. $8K and should take a about two weeks.

5: Parts availability is pretty good even in the US. I can get 90% of all parts within 24 hours. Between RN,AB,RDS,Safari rovers and many others, parts are not an issue. I also personally stock a complete extra set of belt,hoses,alternator, lift pump,gasket kit etc. This is just common sense for any owner non US spec vehicle.

6: The life span of an average V8 is about 175K maybe a bit more before they typically need a complete overhaul. 300Tdi should see at least 300k plus before major overhaul. They are not bomb proof but tend to fair much better that a rover V8.

7:Simplicity. The 300tdi is dead simple to work on. It's a one wire system, no computers, no electrical fiddle faddle. If something is wrong 9 times out of 10 it's fuel related.

This conversion is not for everyone. Personally, I love diesel vehicles and that is a big draw for me. I also love driving them off road. All I can say is after 8 1/2 years of driving a 300tdi everyday, the problems have been few and far between, were as my V8 Land Rovers have kept me busy with a never ending stream of issues. Best of luck with whatever to drive and hope to see you on the trail.

Cheers
Scott

Very good information, just some thoughts....




As for a Land Rover V8. I don't want to over estimate this but is their a person who has owned one and not had an issue?? hahaha Ok but seriously...



3: Conversion cost depends greatly on where you get the motor. Granted it will never be less that swapping out a V8. Swapping out a V8 is a pretty straight forward and parts are cheap. Having said this, a 300Tdi in any rover in the US market will always be worth more than a comparable rover with a V8. They are few and far between and command a price. As for sourcing a 300tdi, do your homework! Both companies I dealt with offered a 30 -60 day warranty. I will start with the position that you are getting a used motor as new 300tdi are few and far between. My experience is that a complete 300tdi drivetrain can be purchased for between 3K - 10K plus shipping. Average milage on this type of used motor is 75k -125K You also need to factor in additional parts,timing belt kit, hoses, belts, lift pump, clutch etc so add in another $1000 - $2000. The best route is to purchase a running vehicle, have the service work done i.e. timing belt etc and have the entire drivetrain pulled. This is not the cheapest but best way to avoid headaches. You end up get everything you need to plug and play.

4:Installation: An average mechanic with a good selection of tool can complete the swap within two months with help from friends. If you are paying someone, average cost is between $3500. $8K and should take a about two weeks.

While the Rover V8 has its problems (I think most will agree its really all the ancillaries attached that have most of the problems), 1) the Rover V8 hasn't really been advocated here, and 2) even so, the money to acquire, tune up, ship and install a TDi is more than enough to keep a Rover V8 running, or swap one out (even for a 4.6) and keep it running with money left over.



6: The life span of an average V8 is about 175K maybe a bit more before they typically need a complete overhaul. 300Tdi should see at least 300k plus before major overhaul. They are not bomb proof but tend to fair much better that a rover V8.

May be true, regarding the mileage. However, 1) 175k miles is a lot of miles for one owner to put on a car. 2) as previously stated most 300TDis coming over here have at least 100k miles. Diesels will last 300k. Gassers are approaching that mark with proper maintenance. 3) Most owners will get bored with their car and sell it long before 175k gets there. The most I have gotten is 160k on a vehicle (91 Isuzu Trooper S 4cyl that was still in great shape). 4) besides, even if you do have a great rebuild job on a TDI, chances are the donor body will fall apart long before. While the engine runs a long time, it seems that the body goes long before. Look at the older 7.3 PSD Ford trucks and similar era Cummins powered Dodges. Those bodies look like crap, and Rovers certainly arent more immune to rust and interior detioration. My point is, around 200-250k most Rover bodies/interiors seem to be shot.



Personally, I love diesel vehicles and that is a big draw for me. I also love driving them off road. All I can say is after 8 1/2 years of driving a 300tdi everyday, the problems have been few and far between, were as my V8 Land Rovers have kept me busy with a never ending stream of issues. Best of luck with whatever to drive and hope to see you on the trail.

Cheers
Scott

I think that is the very point that needs to be made. Do the conversion because you want to, because diesels are a hobby, because you just have a preference for diesels. Otherwise there isnt a legitimate justification for the swap in the US. I bought an 06 F350 because I thought I liked/wanted the diesel engine. Yes, it sounded cool, drove ok, but ultimately I didnt see any benefit over a V8 other than when something really heavy was attached to my trailer hitch. But that only happened once.

If I had to do an engine swap due to a failure, then I'd probably go with the SBC. If I wanted to spend the money to play with, then I would probably do the TDi swap for kicks. I still think the TDI swaps are cool though.

[dcwhybrew]

I get about 25-26 mpg 400 mile range with the converted 4bd1t in my DII.

Don't care....life is short drive what you want.

I get 19-20 mpgs with my LR3 and a 400 mile range.

[Bugspray]

I get 19-20 mpgs with my LR3 and a 400 mile range.

like I said, life is short drive what you want.

[dcwhybrew]

like I said, life is short drive what you want.

Very true! Mine probably lacks the character that yours has! LOL

Not to digress, but it seems that the significant increase in reliability with the recent generation of LR3s (now LR4s) and RRs, their character has decreased.

[Dendy Jarrett]

Well, Scott- You know I love your trucks for sure. You are one of the rare few that have truly built a truck from scratch and have it be lust-worthy! Seriously, ... not trying to stir the pot here, but really --- rather --- find true thoughts and opinions. I think I have shared with you the folks that are bringing in the DI 300 Tdis that are chopped in half and all documents of the life it lived previously as a full-fledged truck provided along with video documentation of said 300 Tdi running and I do believe that is the best way to buy one so you can be assured it is complete and all ancillary items included.
But again- I see no reason to do it "just to say I did". Rather, start saving now- or possibly find the right one for when that time comes ... and a "heart" transplant becomes necessary.
D

[Roverx]

Hey Dendy,

Fun chatting today. I will dig around the garage for the part. Need to paint the Sakney this weekend so I'm pretty sure I can find it. You better show up for :beer: Monday.

Cheers Mate

[rover4x4]

I want a Td5 and a 5 speed in my Classic, or a 5 speed and a hot RV8. I really want a 5 speed RRC.

[Rovertrader]

I want a Td5 and a 5 speed in my Classic, or a 5 speed and a hot RV8. I really want a 5 speed RRC.

That's pretty straight froward actually- the V8 I mean, with 5 spd.

[gjackson]

5 speed in a classic is really nice. :) I've been enjoying 26 mpg with the R380 behind a 300 in mine. Can't say she is fast, but she can cruise at 75 easily.

cheers

[Snagger]

5 speed in a classic is really nice. :) I've been enjoying 26 mpg with the R380 behind a 300 in mine. Can't say she is fast, but she can cruise at 75 easily.

cheers
I have a 300Tdi and R380 and my RRC give between 30 and 35mpg on a good run. The injection pump was replaced with a second hand brand new unit off a cast Wolf engine, but the reason the engine was cast is that the pump was faultily manufactured; it's timing was completely wrong, and now that that has been fixed, I have found its boost diaphragm plunger is seized solid, so though the turbo provides boost, the pump doesn't throw in any extra fuel in response. It still manages to cruise at 70 mph and reach 85, though it struggles compared to how it used to be. It used to manage 95mph. Just one more thing on the "to do" list...

The 300Tdi and R380 are an excellent combination in the RRC. I don't think the same would be true of the TD5, which being taller may struggle to fit beneath the RR's bonnet and would certainly be harsher and noisier. The TD5 pulls better, but a tuned Tdi would match a standard TD5.

[cdm]

I can't imagine going to an even slower engine than the dog of a V8. TDI would be nice but having to run it overly hard makes no sense. In europe it works because everybody else is slow..

[Timo K]

That's not strictly true. Traffic in Europe is not really that slow. Motorways are 70-80mph limited for the most part. I cruise at 50mph in my 300Tdi Defender for the most part, due to comfort and fuel consumption.

For tough overland trips I can't really see anything Land Rover has to offer beating the 200 and 300Tdi's. Easy to fix, reliable, powerful enough, relatively economical, no electrics to speak of...

We recently did a 450 mile trip with a friend, me in my 300Tdi Defender and him in his 3.9 Automatic RRC. Exactly the same route, with roughly the same load. Mostly tarmac with about a 150 miles of very technical offroading. He calculated an average consumption of less than 11mpg, while I was getting well over 21mpg...

300Tdi's are relatively easy to upgrade too in terms of power. With a variable geometry turbo bolt-on kit you can tickle it to some 160bhp and little over 270lb/ft's of torque. Instant power delivey across the range. Couldn't complain about lack of power then... You have to ask though, do you want a tuned diesel, or something milder but pretty much bulletproof?

They're known to be good, reliable engines. I can't help but think that everyone's who's having trouble after a conversion have just messed something up.

I don't think the Rover 3.9 V8 is all that great. It's not all that reliable, it's not very economical (for a V8) and for it's displacement it's not even very powerful. So what do you get? A good soundtrack? IMHO not even that.

[Antichrist]

Dont forget that we're talking US applications here. LR TDis, or any foreign TDI for that matter, arent known quantities in the US. Theoretically, people doing the swaps (or thinking about the swaps) are wanting to go to remote areas where there are only small towns. So again, as you mentioned, if you have a break down, with a TDI (and even the LR V8) you'll have to have parts flown in from a parts source. At least with a Rover V8, a dealership is located in just about every state in the union. Parts become much more simple to source with a SBC LS1.Yes and no.
I'd hazard to guess that most with Tdi's did the work themselves, or are really familiar with the setup, so not too likely to be turning the vehicle over entirely to a small town mechanic.
As for getting parts for a Rover V8 vs a Tdi, the typical Rover parts houses that supply parts are obviously already set up for shipping, dealers not so much, and given how few dealers there are, the odds of one being close are pretty slim.

[DividingCreek]

I have had the opportunity to drive or own most everything that Land Rover has had to offer anywhere in the world in the last 25 years with the excepton to the Td6.
I have worked on the electricery of the td5, owned many Tdi's both 200 and 300's not that there is much difference. I have driven many td4/Puma's and have several thousand miles behind the wheel of those trucks. I have also had the V8 trucks. This past weekend I swapped the gems 4.0 out of my 96 disco (truck only has 86k).
What a nightmare. I could have done @ least two Tdi engine r&r's in the time that one V8 takes. Difficult to work on,50 year old engine design, virtually no change other than displacement and periodically a different management sytem thrown @ it. I don't get the working/pushing the tdi down the road comments. Yes these are small displacement diesels @ 2.5 liter. Do they compare to large displacement 6.2 or larger-ie twice the size, absolutely not. Are they the best choice for towing heavy loads ? No but how often do you see anyone with a rover towing any thing heavy ? I have about 40,000 miles of towing an all steel car trailer with 4000-6000lb loads-ie 8k plus in tow with a 300 tdi 130 which weighs over 6k itself. Do I have to down shift to third on steep grades-sure but I'd be doing the same with any of Rovers V8 trucks. I have driven 6+ hour trips (single tank of fuel in a tdi) with others in convoy heading to off road events where the other trucks were a mixture of V8's and diesels-all rovers. Interstate speeds were consistently 65-75 and the limiting factors has never been a Tdi's ability to keep up but rather the V8's need to stop every 25 exits for fuel. Parts have never been a problem for the tdi's stateside. I can't speak to the Td5 or Td4 engines but parts from the UK seem to come as fast or faster than they do from Rovers North and the V8 truck is far more likely to break down in the first place than the diesel, I have broken down once in a tdi powered truck. The truck was still running and could have proceeded but probably not far due to oil loss. The #1 piston and rod came through the side of the block. The truck drove onto the trailer on it's own power and later into the shop where the engine was replaced. For me diesel has nothing to do with a cool factor, its the better choice, and consistently the lesser of two evils.
Again these are my experiences but in my mind there is no contest. Would I look to repower a disco with a tdi-no way, a defender sure.

[Rovertrader]

great pic- and synopsis.
My complaint about towing uphill and down shifting is honestly not compared to another Rover, which it should be. It is in comparison to a modern American big diesel, which is highly unfair. I also think said comparison is because my 130 felt like a bigger truck, aka F250 in terms of length/size, but is actually just a big 110. I, like Doug, have logged several coast to coast trips in Tdi and NA2.5 (little slow in the Rockies at elevation), and agree that keeping up with traffic even on Interstates, is a nonissue, and I love only stopping every 400+ miles in lieu of 200 like in a NAS90. As is always the case, one has to determine what is best for his application- then simply rationalize for it to be a Rover, and which one :-)

[dcwhybrew]

... Would I look to repower a disco with a tdi-no way, a defender sure.

Can you explain a little further? Why a defender but not a disco?

[Viggen]

I can't imagine going to an even slower engine than the dog of a V8. TDI would be nice but having to run it overly hard makes no sense. In europe it works because everybody else is slow..

Fantastic bit of insight there buddy.... Speed isnt everything. Not every light needs to be a drag race. It might take a few seconds longer to get to 60 but since when does that really matter?

[timmy!!!!!!!]

Can you explain a little further? Why a defender but not a disco?

x2 I have my disco set up exactly the way I like it but I hate having to fill up several times on any trip. Been thinking about a tdi once the v8 dies out.

[DividingCreek]

x2 I have my disco set up exactly the way I like it but I hate having to fill up several times on any trip. Been thinking about a tdi once the v8 dies out.

Why wouldn't I do a conversion on a disco ? This really would boil down to the differences between the two trucks and the monetary value of the finished product as well.

I should preface these coments by saying that I have done 5 engine transplants in the past 12 mos. Three I was paid to do. The two that i had to do were on my own trucks. I'm burned out on engine swaps for the time being.

Defenders have the removeable radiator support or breakfast panel. This hugely simplfies engine removal and installation. Defenders have bulkheads that allow access to everything. the disco bulkhead.......well if you have tried to access the bell housing to block bolts you know. The engine harness on a defender is simply unplugged and lifted out with the engine. Again with the disco the engine wiring harness is integral to the main harness ie unplug everything on the engine and then drape the loom up over the roof or over the passenger side fender will removing or installing an engine. I you are doing a conversion on a disco you need to swap out the entire main wiring harness to the correct diesel on or start cutting wires. Then there is the fact that D1's and now D2's have very little value according to NADA and Kelly. The idea that value of a tdi drivetrain is higher than the running truck its going into and then the factors above are such that I just wouldn't do it. Everything about the defender lends itself to the ease of this sort of transplant. Again I'm not bashing anyones ride just saying for me I just had a very nice rust free 86k disco's engine die and I choose to replace it rather than convert.

[rover4x4]

I hate to hijack but I would really like to know about the 5speed in a Classic, the ZF is a complete POS IMO. A 5 speed behind the RV8 is so much more driveable than the autobox. Ive driven a 2.8PS D90st, it was memorable pulled just like a diesel should. Ive also driven a Td5 110 it was really really nice, like a no brainer to me. I will do Td5 if the need ever presents itself

[timmy!!!!!!!]

Why wouldn't I do a conversion on a disco ? This really would boil down to the differences between the two trucks and the monetary value of the finished product as well.

I should preface these coments by saying that I have done 5 engine transplants in the past 12 mos. Three I was paid to do. The two that i had to do were on my own trucks. I'm burned out on engine swaps for the time being.

Defenders have the removeable radiator support or breakfast panel. This hugely simplfies engine removal and installation. Defenders have bulkheads that allow access to everything. the disco bulkhead.......well if you have tried to access the bell housing to block bolts you know. The engine harness on a defender is simply unplugged and lifted out with the engine. Again with the disco the engine wiring harness is integral to the main harness ie unplug everything on the engine and then drape the loom up over the roof or over the passenger side fender will removing or installing an engine. I you are doing a conversion on a disco you need to swap out the entire main wiring harness to the correct diesel on or start cutting wires. Then there is the fact that D1's and now D2's have very little value according to NADA and Kelly. The idea that value of a tdi drivetrain is higher than the running truck its going into and then the factors above are such that I just wouldn't do it. Everything about the defender lends itself to the ease of this sort of transplant. Again I'm not bashing anyones ride just saying for me I just had a very nice rust free 86k disco's engine die and I choose to replace it rather than convert.

Ok, those are pretty valid points. I was just making sure it wasn't a drivability issue since you deal with tdis all day.

[lwg]

the ZF is a complete POS IMO.

I've never understood this. My experience with the ZF has been nothing but good in the past 10+ years. Occasionally there are problems but that's the case with any transmission.

[dcwhybrew]

Why wouldn't I do a conversion on a disco ? This really would boil down to the differences between the two trucks and the monetary value of the finished product as well.

I should preface these coments by saying that I have done 5 engine transplants in the past 12 mos. Three I was paid to do. The two that i had to do were on my own trucks. I'm burned out on engine swaps for the time being.

Defenders have the removeable radiator support or breakfast panel. This hugely simplfies engine removal and installation. Defenders have bulkheads that allow access to everything. the disco bulkhead.......well if you have tried to access the bell housing to block bolts you know. The engine harness on a defender is simply unplugged and lifted out with the engine. Again with the disco the engine wiring harness is integral to the main harness ie unplug everything on the engine and then drape the loom up over the roof or over the passenger side fender will removing or installing an engine. I you are doing a conversion on a disco you need to swap out the entire main wiring harness to the correct diesel on or start cutting wires. Then there is the fact that D1's and now D2's have very little value according to NADA and Kelly. The idea that value of a tdi drivetrain is higher than the running truck its going into and then the factors above are such that I just wouldn't do it. Everything about the defender lends itself to the ease of this sort of transplant. Again I'm not bashing anyones ride just saying for me I just had a very nice rust free 86k disco's engine die and I choose to replace it rather than convert.

That makes a lot of sense. Why put a drive train in a car that is worth probably not even half as much as the drive train itself?

[dcwhybrew]

I hate to hijack but I would really like to know about the 5speed in a Classic, the ZF is a complete POS IMO. A 5 speed behind the RV8 is so much more driveable than the autobox. Ive driven a 2.8PS D90st, it was memorable pulled just like a diesel should. Ive also driven a Td5 110 it was really really nice, like a no brainer to me. I will do Td5 if the need ever presents itself

Huh? What facts do you base your opinion on? If you research the threads on this and most other BBS related to Rovers, you dont find near as many discussing ZF transmission issues. These transmissions are great, and are very durable. Plus, if there is ever an issue, ZFs are common enough that transmission shops can deal with them easily.

[lwg]

Huh? What facts do you base your opinion on? If you research the threads on this and most other BBS related to Rovers, you dont find near as many discussing ZF transmission issues. These transmissions are great, and are very durable. Plus, if there is ever an issue, ZFs are common enough that transmission shops can deal with them easily.

Bingo! ZF's are super common. Tons of shops work on them if you have problems.

If you want a 5-speed because you just want a 5-speed no problem there, but don't throw the ZF under the bus! ;) I personally like the Auto's but to each his own.

[Viggen]

That makes a lot of sense. Why put a drive train in a car that is worth probably not even half as much as the drive train itself?

If that was true, then one would never replace a motor in these trucks ever. A '96 D1 is worth about $3500 according to the book. A complete, professionally rebuilt longblock can run you more than you can pick up an entire truck for. If you boil it down, in something like a D1, nothing makes sense. You have to do it because you want it and will keep it for a while. Theres an RRC on LRX thats been for sale for a while. He wants $18k for it. He will probably never get that. It makes no sense spending $5k on a motor/trans/ radiator/ ancillaries set up and then at least $2k on swapping it in unless you really, really want a diesel and plan on keeping it for an extremely long time so that it will pay for itself. Doing it in a Defender is a safer monetary thing because people will pay $18k for one.

[dcwhybrew]

If that was true, then one would never replace a motor in these trucks ever. A '96 D1 is worth about $3500 according to the book. A complete, professionally rebuilt longblock can run you more than you can pick up an entire truck for. If you boil it down, in something like a D1, nothing makes sense. You have to do it because you want it and will keep it for a while. Theres an RRC on LRX thats been for sale for a while. He wants $18k for it. He will probably never get that. It makes no sense spending $5k on a motor/trans/ radiator/ ancillaries set up and then at least $2k on swapping it in unless you really, really want a diesel and plan on keeping it for an extremely long time so that it will pay for itself. Doing it in a Defender is a safer monetary thing because people will pay $18k for one.

A complete diesel drive train and the cost to rewire the electrics is significantly more expensive than the body/chasis it is going in if it is a D1. I am just considering the ratio of the drive train and swap costs vs the value of the body/chasis the diesel drive train is going in. When i considered dropping a used non-rebuilt (but still running and being used) 300tdi in my 91 RR, the cost was $13k for the drive train and labor ($10k for drive train and $3k for labor). Then I was probably going to have to upgrade the rear axle atleast, and then add a 1" lift to accomodate the height of the diesel engine. So you can do the math. My RR was in pristine condition with only 80k on the engine. I sold it for $8k, which is about 2-3x more than a D1 is worth.

A quality RRC; if the body and interior are in fantstic shape, then the swap might be worth it value wise?? A defender I can see why, because those in decent shape, even with 100k+ miles on them will still be worth twice what the cost of an install will be. The conversion will add that more value to the Defender (assuming the body is in good shape). This is not addressing whether the diesel engine is "better" than the gas.

Just my opinion after thinking about Doug's comments.

[Snagger]

I hate to hijack but I would really like to know about the 5speed in a Classic, the ZF is a complete POS IMO. A 5 speed behind the RV8 is so much more driveable than the autobox. Ive driven a 2.8PS D90st, it was memorable pulled just like a diesel should. Ive also driven a Td5 110 it was really really nice, like a no brainer to me. I will do Td5 if the need ever presents itself
The LT77 and later R380 are fairly tough boxes, but not as tough as a well maintained ZF. The original LT77 tended to wear out its bearings, which were uprated and enlarged at about the same time as the introduction of the 200Tdi engine, becoming the LT77S. This handled the torque better. They still suffered main shaft spline wear due to the transfer box input gear not being cross-drilled, starving the splines of lubrication.

The R380 is a development of the LT77S with a repositioned reverse gear gate, revised selector system and relocated reverse light switch. It still has faults carried over from the LT77, principally the rapid wear of the second gear baulk ring (making swift change-up crunch the gears), and wear of the sandwich plate's selector shaft hole, allowing the selector shaft to move laterally as well as rotationally, increasing the movement required on the gear lever and causing reverse gear selection and reverse light switch activation problems. The main shaft spline wear was rectified with cross drilled gears on LT230 attached gear boxes (the Borg-Warner attached units in RRCs never had the same problem).

Most problems in the ZF come about due to infrequent ATF changes or ignoring the oil filter in its sump. If the ATF and filter are replaced on schedule, the unit is almost bullet-proof. An auto box is never as fuel efficient or good for performance as a manual box because of how the torque converters work, and the 4th gear is probably a lower ratio than 5th on an LT77 or R380, but the figures shouldn't be horribly far adrift. Behind a Tdi or TD5, the R380 is the better option, but that's because they have relatively low performance and you need to squeeze all of their output down to the road, but behind a V8, the ZF is generally regarded as the better drive as the V8 has enough torque that you can afford to lose a little through the converters. ZF conversions are popular in the UK, made rare only because of the cost involved, but high on many owners' wish lists.

[Snagger]

I can't imagine going to an even slower engine than the dog of a V8. TDI would be nice but having to run it overly hard makes no sense. In europe it works because everybody else is slow..If your V8 is a "dog", then something is wrong with it. As for driving slowly in Europe, you clearly have never been here... 80 mph is standard on most "highway" equivalents (the UK limit is slower than the rest at 70 but most do 80) and some German routes are unrestricted. The UK's single lane country roads are even 60 mph, which is higher than most US big main arterial routes.

[Snagger]

I have worked on the electricery of the td5, owned many Tdi's both 200 and 300's not that there is much difference. I have driven many td4/Puma's and have several thousand miles behind the wheel of those trucks. I have also had the V8 trucks. This past weekend I swapped the gems 4.0 out of my 96 disco (truck only has 86k).
What a nightmare. I could have done @ least two Tdi engine r&r's in the time that one V8 takes. Difficult to work on,50 year old engine design, virtually no change other than displacement and periodically a different management sytem thrown @ it. I don't get the working/pushing the tdi down the road comments. Yes these are small displacement diesels @ 2.5 liter. Do they compare to large displacement 6.2 or larger-ie twice the size, absolutely not. Are they the best choice for towing heavy loads ? No but how often do you see anyone with a rover towing any thing heavy ? I have about 40,000 miles of towing an all steel car trailer with 4000-6000lb loads-ie 8k plus in tow with a 300 tdi 130 which weighs over 6k itself. Do I have to down shift to third on steep grades-sure but I'd be doing the same with any of Rovers V8 trucks. I have driven 6+ hour trips (single tank of fuel in a tdi) with others in convoy heading to off road events where the other trucks were a mixture of V8's and diesels-all rovers. Interstate speeds were consistently 65-75 and the limiting factors has never been a Tdi's ability to keep up but rather the V8's need to stop every 25 exits for fuel. Parts have never been a problem for the tdi's stateside. I can't speak to the Td5 or Td4 engines but parts from the UK seem to come as fast or faster than they do from Rovers North and the V8 truck is far more likely to break down in the first place than the diesel, I have broken down once in a tdi powered truck. The truck was still running and could have proceeded but probably not far due to oil loss. The #1 piston and rod came through the side of the block. The truck drove onto the trailer on it's own power and later into the shop where the engine was replaced. For me diesel has nothing to do with a cool factor, its the better choice, and consistently the lesser of two evils.
Again these are my experiences but in my mind there is no contest. Would I look to repower a disco with a tdi-no way, a defender sure.Well put.

Anyone doing engine swaps for "cool factor" is well entitled to do so, but it takes deep pockets and a fair bit of time. if you can afford those, you're luckier than me! :)

As for the argument that getting Tdi parts in the US will be difficult, that is wrong - LR support all of their equipment worldwide. While US dealerships may be less likely to stock Tdi components, they will be able to have them supplied immediately from LR in the UK at no extra charge unless airfreighted for emergency speed. Shipped at the normal speed, they would be normal cost. But you have to ask yourself how much stock any dealership normally carries - will your local dealer have a cam shaft, piston, bearing set, oil pump or cam follower for your V8? No way - they;ll have to order it in from the UK, making it no disadvantage to own a Tdi. As Dividing Creek says, though, Tdis are generally much more robust and reliable than V8s, so the chance of being stranded are that much smaller.

I have a 200Tdi 109 and a 300Tdi RRC. The 109 was a vehicle I re-engined, and it wasn't hard despite the generational difference. To re-engine a Defender would be fairly simple. The RRC is factory spec, and I shopped around for two years to find one of that spec. I chose those engines for good reason - the fuel economy and the reliability.

However, as Dividing Creek and others have also pointed out, the work and cost involved in changing a V8 powered DI or RRC to Tdi are high, especially the cost in the US where engines are not commonly available from breakers yards, and so are often not worthwhile from an economic view point alone.

As some have said, the LR diesels are low capacity and hardly set the world alight with performance, but they are good enough to do the job frugally. Bigger engines mean more weight, which means uprating suspension, adding further weight and compromising off road ability and on road handling. It also means a loss of fuel economy. having relatively low performance is also a good thing for an expedition truck - while TDis and TD5s are easily tuned for much more torque, doing so isn't wise on a vehicle meant to travel remote areas as the chances or damaging the transmission or itself increase exponentially. Low power/torque = greater vehicle reliability, and a small, boosted and higher revving engine (as is the way with European and Japanese vehicles) is a far more efficient and practical manner of powering a vehicle than a big block with lots of cubic inches.

[Rocket Ship]

That makes a lot of sense. Why put a drive train in a car that is worth probably not even half as much as the drive train itself?

Because not everything comes down to a question of dollar value. Some people build their trucks to USE them, not to sell them once the "build" is done. And if the conversion makes sense for an owner, that's his call, and his coin.

Why not just start with a Defender? Because Discoveries and Rangies have many advantages over Defenders. Defenders have a lot of good qualities. But comfort, NVH, etc are not one of them. Many people put a lot of value in being warm, dry, and holding a conversation with your passengers. If the disadvantage is that you can't take your body apart with a screwdriver, that's a fair trade-off for many people.


If your V8 is a "dog", then something is wrong with it.

What have you driven other than Rovers? The V8 is a DOG. The most powerful version makes a paltry 217hp from 4.6L. In the 90's, the 4.0 produced 190 hp, meanwhile GM was putting the 5.7L in trucks with 255hp, more torque, and better fuel economy to boot. Even GM's base model full-size truck engine, the 4.3L V6 was putting out 200hp and more torque.

And then that same engine was offered as the large engine in lightweight compact trucks that would blow the doors off a Rover. (190hp 4500lb vs. 180hp 3000lb)


When i considered dropping a used non-rebuilt (but still running and being used) 300tdi in my 91 RR, the cost was $13k for the drive train and labor ($10k for drive train and $3k for labor).

Where are you getting your prices? You can get a 300 with a swap kit for $3800 used, $5800 rebuilt, delivered. The R380 is another $1200 used, $1750 rebuilt. 300's can be bought used on Ebay.uk for about $1000. You just need to figure out shipping, which is not insurmountable if you have the right contacts. I was offered a complete running 300 with an R380, delivered in Canada, for $4500.

[DividingCreek]

Two more years and we will be able to legaly bring in the first of the Tdi discos (89 model year). They will most likely be parts donors for a whole wave of disco conversions here.

[bobtail4x4]

I have offered before, I have room for a container, and can accept your ebay uk winnings to go in it.

I dont really want to be chasing about the country collecting parts but we have a good pallet delivery set up over here, anything moved for about $80, as long as it fits on a pallet.

anyone who "really" wants a half car, I suppose it can be done but it adds another $500 or so for the work,

[DividingCreek]

Bobtail I've sent you a pm.
Cheers,
Doug

[dcwhybrew]

Because not everything comes down to a question of dollar value. Some people build their trucks to USE them, not to sell them once the "build" is done. And if the conversion makes sense for an owner, that's his call, and his coin.

Why not just start with a Defender? Because Discoveries and Rangies have many advantages over Defenders. Defenders have a lot of good qualities. But comfort, NVH, etc are not one of them. Many people put a lot of value in being warm, dry, and holding a conversation with your passengers. If the disadvantage is that you can't take your body apart with a screwdriver, that's a fair trade-off for many people.



What have you driven other than Rovers? The V8 is a DOG. The most powerful version makes a paltry 217hp from 4.6L. In the 90's, the 4.0 produced 190 hp, meanwhile GM was putting the 5.7L in trucks with 255hp, more torque, and better fuel economy to boot. Even GM's base model full-size truck engine, the 4.3L V6 was putting out 200hp and more torque.

And then that same engine was offered as the large engine in lightweight compact trucks that would blow the doors off a Rover. (190hp 4500lb vs. 180hp 3000lb)



Where are you getting your prices? You can get a 300 with a swap kit for $3800 used, $5800 rebuilt, delivered. The R380 is another $1200 used, $1750 rebuilt. 300's can be bought used on Ebay.uk for about $1000. You just need to figure out shipping, which is not insurmountable if you have the right contacts. I was offered a complete running 300 with an R380, delivered in Canada, for $4500.

1) I didnt make the statement about V8 being or not being a dog. You are mixing up quotes here.

2) Jim Pendleton in Kansas quoted me a $13,000 estimate. I still have my notes. I will go back and check them when I get back in town. Further, I think you are over simplifying the costs. You are not including the labor. There is a significant amount of modification to be done to fit a TDi in a gasser rover - rewiring, engine mounts, suspension changes, etc. As said earlier, it isnt easy.

[LtFuzz]

Let's not forget the amount of money many "casual" Rover people spend on non-powerplant modifications. Basic F+R lockers, axles, armor, roof rack, winch + bumper, suspension, etc., -- even without going crazy -- and plus labor since we're counting labor on the TDI swap, will see numbers pretty close to the diesel swap. And these mods are certainly not raising the intrinsic value of your D1/D2 more or less than a TDI will.

Of course if you had a TDI you'd want those mods too but there is a recurring theme that a diesel conversion "isn't worth it" and that you won't see a financial benefit.

You're not going to see a financial benefit with the first $5,000-$10,000 worth of modifications you purchased so why is the motor swap's financial viability suddenly in question? Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to be pedantic, but the idea that the $X,XXX spent on a diesel conversion is somehow less well spent than the $X,XXX on OME/ARB/BFG/Warn/Engel stuff is a bit incongruous, isn't it?

[dcwhybrew]

Let's not forget the amount of money many "casual" Rover people spend on non-powerplant modifications. Basic F+R lockers, axles, armor, roof rack, winch + bumper, suspension, etc., -- even without going crazy -- and plus labor since we're counting labor on the TDI swap, will see numbers pretty close to the diesel swap. And these mods are certainly not raising the intrinsic value of your D1/D2 more or less than a TDI will.

Of course if you had a TDI you'd want those mods too but there is a recurring theme that a diesel conversion "isn't worth it" and that you won't see a financial benefit.

You're not going to see a financial benefit with the first $5,000-$10,000 worth of modifications you purchased so why is the motor swap's financial viability suddenly in question? Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to be pedantic, but the idea that the $X,XXX spent on a diesel conversion is somehow less well spent than the $X,XXX on OME/ARB/BFG/Warn/Engel stuff is a bit incongruous, isn't it?

I, nor I dont believe anyone else, has made the claim that the bolt on mods increase a trucks value either. That argument doesnt fly. Correct me if I am wrong, but from what I have read, engine conversions are typically done when there is a need for a new engine or substantial repair. The bolt on mods dont have anything to do with keeping the truck running. My point, and others too, is that if you have to change the engine out, in the US it is more economical to stick with the V8 for the reasons already previously in this thread.

[rover4x4]

I just really enjoy changing gears, the ZF is a great transmission smooth and seamless seem to last forever. I feel the gutless RV8 is better matched to a 5 speed, my Classic with a R380 would be perfect!

[Rocket Ship]

I didn't mean to suggest those other quotes came from you. It's just a string of quotes.


I, nor I dont believe anyone else, has made the claim that the bolt on mods increase a trucks value either. That argument doesnt fly. Correct me if I am wrong, but from what I have read, engine conversions are typically done when there is a need for a new engine or substantial repair. The bolt on mods dont have anything to do with keeping the truck running. My point, and others too, is that if you have to change the engine out, in the US it is more economical to stick with the V8 for the reasons already previously in this thread.

This is the crux of the argument. On the one hand, you say that bolt on's do not increase the value of the truck, and are not done to keep the truck running. We all agree on that. They are done to make the truck "better", or just because the owner likes the look, or whatever.

But then you are seemingly suggesting the only valid reason to re-power a truck is if the original engine blows, and then it is more economical to just use a stock replacement.

For many of us however, the swap is not because the original engine blew, and economics don't matter. The diesel swap is just a big bolt-on, and we do it to make the truck "better."

I would even argue the point that it's more economical to just swap in another RV8. Sure, maybe you can pick up another one from the scrap yard for a few grand. But that's not something I would ever do. It's just another big steaming pile of junk, likely to blow up and leave you stranded again. The only RV8 I would bother swapping in would be completely rebuilt with sleeved liners, or a new long block so that I could have a reasonable chance (~90%?) of getting 60,000 miles out of it before it blows up again. Either one of those would cost over $5000.

If I were in the $1000 junkyard engine market, hands down, I'd take some tired old 300 rather than a questionable RV8. Sure, it's more work. But my labor is free. And in my opinion, anybody who intends to do with their truck that which is the subject of this forum, should be able to figure out how to do this. It's not that hard.

[DividingCreek]

In my case the 96 disco with 84k was free from a client. I have bought a RTE front winch bumper, RTE sliders with square nerf bars, RTE rear bumper also with nerfs, 235.85 mud terrains, 2 inch lift. The engine I just installed was an 80k used unit for $850 from Randy Williams @ Rover Bones in Lancaster Pa. http://usedlandroverpartsco.fatcow.com/

Clearly I have thrown thousands @ a truck that was free 5 weeks ago. Have a 1.4 transfer case inbound from the Uk for it as well. Intent was to make it a tow rig as well as something my teenagers and girlfriend can drive off road-hence (attempt to get them interested in my hobby) all the armor.
To each their own on how they spend their money or outfit their trucks. I wasn't trying to start anything above- Dendy asked for opinions and I offered my personal one.

[timmy!!!!!!!]

Doug your disco sounds a lot like mine except I have a 3in. lift with 33s. I wish 1.4 transfer cases were easier to come by in the US because that is exactly what my disco needed when I had 235/85s.

[REDROVER]

let me ask you this>>> if your fuel cost was less than $2 a gallon would you do it? if your truck will be more reliable and have more resale value would u do it? you know the answer.

if i had a rover and knew were to get a 300tdi. i wouldnt be on the portal writing this, i would of been working as fast as i could to finish it,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgP7OCQ6wTM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gvRy9OXeOuE

[dcwhybrew]

If fuel cost were less than $2 a gallon, it may change the decision. However, in order to get <$2/gallon people are going to have to figure out how to source wvo, or someother bio deisel (if there are others). I would suggest 99.5% of the people doing diesel conversions are buying their fuel at the diesel pump (in the $4/gallon range + or _ $0.25).

[Dendy Jarrett]

If fuel cost were less than $2 a gallon, it may change the decision. However, in order to get <$2/gallon people are going to have to figure out how to source wvo, or someother bio deisel (if there are others). I would suggest 99.5% of the people doing diesel conversions are buying their fuel at the diesel pump (in the $4/gallon range + or _ $0.25).

DC- Did you watch the video? He is running used motor oil in his 6.2. I understand you would have to have a stout filter to be able to remove any sludge or solids and I cannot image that this burns clean!?! Thoughts?
D

[dcwhybrew]

That's right, now I remember...sorry it had been awhile since I read that he was running used oil and something else. Is that possible with the 300TDi? How easy is it to go get the used oil? Do the parts stores just cough it up when you ask?

I am assuming sourcing used oil is the same as sourcing wvo?? You have to get it from someone with mass quantaties since you wont change oil (or fry chicken) that often at home! LOL

[Snagger]

No - Tdis don't even like heated new vegoil; the engine and turbo turbine coke up with black gunge very quickly. Don't use anything but diesel on direct injection diesels - thicker fuel condenses on the bores and gums things up. Indirect injection engines are far more tolerant, as long as the injector pump is robust enough. This is my experience with a 12J, 200Tdi and 300Tdi - the 12J loved it (but the weak Lucus pump is susceptible if the vegoil is not heated) but the Tdis had trouble. And despite what you hear, you can't even blend vegoil with diesel on a Tdi - it knackered my 300's injection pump.

[Snagger]

What have you driven other than Rovers? The V8 is a DOG. The most powerful version makes a paltry 217hp from 4.6L. In the 90's, the 4.0 produced 190 hp, meanwhile GM was putting the 5.7L in trucks with 255hp, more torque, and better fuel economy to boot. Even GM's base model full-size truck engine, the 4.3L V6 was putting out 200hp and more torque.

So GM make an engine with nearly 50% larger capacity but only squeezed about 20% more power from it? Hardly something to boast about. And how much of its greater power/torque would be required just to pull the extra weight of the bigger engine and uprated suspension, and just how much rougher was that commercial truck engine? As for what other vehicles I have driven, plenty of non 4wd, but that's irrelevant. Other 4wd vehicles are also irrelevant - this discussion is about re-engining a Land Rover vehicle, so what is your point, other than misdirected, vitriolic, "I know better than you" posturing.

[Dendy Jarrett]

I agree to some degree Snagger. I have read nothing good about using thicker fuels (for lack of a better term) in 300 Tdis. Also, not sure how readily available Used Motor Oil is on an expedition, lest you Get stuck, drain all the oil from your mates truck and abandon that truck on the trail!! :D

Seriously, from most I can read, the simplicity (drive by wire) or reliability of a 300Tdi is about the most "sane" reason to transplant.

D

[REDROVER]

ok lets make this str8. every mechanic shop i walked in so far. they are more than happy to give away that used motor oil. ( in fact they are very surprised and they wanna see it themselves

yes u can blend vegi oil with diesel. and it will work fine. in fact better than regular diesel. why? because diesel #2 has very low sulfur. and almost any diesel injection pump likes to be more lubricated. that's when used motor oil or vegi oil come in.

if u blend any of them with 50% diesel u wont even see smoke .

if tdi is direct injection so is 6.2 and it works fine

ERIC

[headdamage]

The 6.2 and 6.5 are indirect injection diesels.

[Dendy Jarrett]

The 6.2 and 6.5 are indirect injection diesels.

That is fine, but if you read my original title post- we are talking 300Tdi vs. V8. This alternative fuel source would have to be micro filtered to work in a 300 Tdi

Correct?

D

ps: Not excluding other diesel transplants - just speaking directly about the quirks, or specifics of the 300Tdi.

[Viggen]

ok lets make this str8. every mechanic shop i walked in so far. they are more than happy to give away that used motor oil. ( in fact they are very surprised and they wanna see it themselves

yes u can blend vegi oil with diesel. and it will work fine. in fact better than regular diesel. why? because diesel #2 has very low sulfur. and almost any diesel injection pump likes to be more lubricated. that's when used motor oil or vegi oil come in.

if u blend any of them with 50% diesel u wont even see smoke .

if tdi is direct injection so is 6.2 and it works fine

ERIC

Sorry but, as already pointed out, you have an indirect injection motor and probably an older inline style pump like I have. On another note, I will never run motor oil as a fuel. I dont care if you cannot see smoke or if you can, it is NOT good for the environment. There is SO much nasty CRAP in used motor oils (fuel, metals, carbon, soot, etc...). Not to mention that I am quite certain that burning used oil to fuel a vehicle is illegal. I think its okay in use as in a generator or heating device but not for vehicles themselves.



On a side note, AA has a kit that allows the 300tdi to be paired to a GM manual. I would put that motor and trans combo into any number of non Rover vehicles.

[Nonimouse]

As an aside I have a standard 75 litr tank in the 110 and I get almost 900kms to a tank on main roads... I have no issues with power, speed or keeping up with the traffic. I'd like better brakes though

[REDROVER]

environment is a different topic. as far as using motor oil as diesel fuel. yes it can be done with any diesel engine. ( that doesnt mean 100% oil in the tank)

if it doesn't smoke that means its atomizing right and burning right.

i pesonaly do see any reason why land rover diesel is a bad idea. or why it cant be run on many blends of other oils.

concept is the same for all diesel engines >> compression ignition <<<
ERIC

[Rocket Ship]

So GM make an engine with nearly 50% larger capacity but only squeezed about 20% more power from it? Hardly something to boast about. And how much of its greater power/torque would be required just to pull the extra weight of the bigger engine and uprated suspension, and just how much rougher was that commercial truck engine? As for what other vehicles I have driven, plenty of non 4wd, but that's irrelevant. Other 4wd vehicles are also irrelevant - this discussion is about re-engining a Land Rover vehicle, so what is your point, other than misdirected, vitriolic, "I know better than you" posturing.

HP/displacement is a completely meaningless measurement. That engine produces more power, more efficiently than the Rover V8. It weighs about 200lbs more than the Rover V8. Sure, 200lbs is not insubstantial, but it's not really a big deal. We're talking less than 5% of the total weight of a truck. Rough? We're not talking about a commercial engine here. This is the classic Small Block Chev. Used in everything, including the Cadillac Escalade.

There's no posturing here. Most Americans think the Rover V8 is a dog. You, do not. Obviously this is a question of opinion more than science although I did attempt to present some evidence to prove it is a dog. A person's opinion is based on comparison to other things they have driven, which is why I asked what you have driven, what are you comparing the Rover V8 to? I've driven a lot of vehicles, and my Disco is the slowest gas-engined vehicle I've driven since my days with crappy 80's econoboxes.

Is a Rover V8 engined truck faster than a 300tdi truck? Sure. But that's hardly an accomplishment.

[Yorker]

So GM make an engine with nearly 50% larger capacity but only squeezed about 20% more power from it? Hardly something to boast about. And how much of its greater power/torque would be required just to pull the extra weight of the bigger engine and uprated suspension, and just how much rougher was that commercial truck engine? As for what other vehicles I have driven, plenty of non 4wd, but that's irrelevant.

FWIW
The 5.7 isn't a commercial truck engine it is a light duty V8, like the Rover V8 is. The 5.7 certainly isn't any "rougher" and really isn't that much bigger(though ~200lbs heavier?) Generally speaking the Rover V8 is closer in performance to American 6 cylinder engines of the same era, nothing to get too excited about particularly when mated to an auto trans. On the other hand a Land Rover with a Rover V8 feels like a rocket ship when compared to one with the 2.25. :sombrero:

[junkyddog11]

I put the 300tdi in my RRC 'cause it was old, slow and smelly....just like me.
Shop girl has a V8 in her heap 'cause it's smooth, fast and loud......just like her.

Most of the conversions (approaching 2 dozen) I have done have been for differing reasons. None have been an issue. All have replaced V8's that have gone south for various reasons. If you take into consideration what it would cost to replace the V8 with a 4.6 or even rebuild, it makes the 300 closer to making sense ....if you don't mind being old, slow and smelly.

[dcwhybrew]

...Shop girl has a V8 in her heap 'cause it's smooth, fast and loud......just like her...

Those comments are worthless without pictures! HA!

[Nonimouse]

Might be worth pointing out here that the difference with being this side of the pond comapred to that side of the pond is just what is available.

I had a similar discussion with a Aussie on the LRAU forum about Isuzu 3.9's

Here our range of V8's is so different as is the range of RV8 tuning mods. I'm always amazed at why anyone over here buys in US lumps at all. A Nissan 4.2/4.5/4.7/5.0/5.2/5.7 V8 is cheap as chips, comes with lots of cams and is so reliable as to be boring. Same goes for Toyota. TVR lumps are well down on pennies now (330bhp from 5.0ltrs and still using RV8 parts is nice...

As for adding 5% to all up body weight :Wow1: That's just crazy. 200lbs or 95kgs (ish) is a lot of fuel, a lot of water or the dog and both kids! I've only got 2950kgs all up before I get a big fine and points on my licence/invalid insurance. That 95kgs is for important stuff, like bling lights, a 75ltr fridge freezer, a bat wing awning and that roof rack water carrier!

This is an overland forum about overlanding. Our only need for power is for getting over dunes. The rest of the time 35bhp/tonne surfices - that way our drive train is still in one piece at the end of the journey :xxrotflma

[Viggen]

As for adding 5% to all up body weight :Wow1: That's just crazy. 200lbs or 95kgs (ish) is a lot of fuel, a lot of water or the dog and both kids! I've only got 2950kgs all up before I get a big fine and points on my licence/invalid insurance. That 95kgs is for important stuff, like bling lights, a 75ltr fridge freezer, a bat wing awning and that roof rack water carrier!


Wait, you have to insure based on weight of the vehicle? Thats insane.

[Nonimouse]

Not quite

If we break the manufacturers specified max loads it's a crime. If this is found to be the case after an accident our inusrance is void; and if someone is hurt or injured because of it we need to buy soap on a rope. Most of our police have no idea what rules are but the guys that matter do

Mind you the law is flouted all the time by folk that don't care/don't know

Same goes for most European countries and a number round the world

For example max LR 110 roof load (inc rack) is 75kgs for EU with RoW being 150kgs

Under British law the same thing applies to non approved bolt on bits and some non OE bits (same in Germany, Spain, France etc). If you fit a set of OME +2" springs they have never been homologated for the vehicle - illegal on the road; but only likley to get fined etc if you have a crash that involves injury or death

[lwg]

Not quite

If we break the manufacturers specified max loads it's a crime. If this is found to be the case after an accident our inusrance is void; and if someone is hurt or injured because of it we need to buy soap on a rope. Most of our police have no idea what rules are but the guys that matter do

Mind you the law is flouted all the time by folk that don't care/don't know

Same goes for most European countries and a number round the world

For example max LR 110 roof load (inc rack) is 75kgs for EU with RoW being 150kgs

Under British law the same thing applies to non approved bolt on bits and some non OE bits (same in Germany, Spain, France etc). If you fit a set of OME +2" springs they have never been homologated for the vehicle - illegal on the road; but only likley to get fined etc if you have a crash that involves injury or death

Wow, and I thought we had too much regulation! I would pull my hair out over there.

What about Kit Cars? Are they legal, is it possible to build a custom vehicle to skirt these laws?

[Rocket Ship]

What about Kit Cars? Are they legal, is it possible to build a custom vehicle to skirt these laws?

Well, they invented the Locost 7, so I would guess so.

Difficult to start with a VIN'd frame and call it a "kit", however.

[Nonimouse]

Google SVA, IVA, BIVA, DVLA, VOSA to find out what hoops we have to jump through

Example: The most powerful engine the Defender was Type Approved for was the 4.0ltr V8. This means that if you fit any engine that has 25% more power (stock) than that 4.0ltr V8 you will need to ring the DVLA who will require a VOSA test on a 'Radical Modification'; as a Defender straight off the line won't pass a Radical Mod test you're scuppered. However the UK doesn't require an engine number on it's V5 (vehicle logbook) so you can get away with fitting other engines. Except when you have that crash...
The way round it is to take a standard engine and modify it. Any reasonable spanner wielder can get 225bhp/300ft/lb out of a 3.5V8 (and that's imperial bhp), same goes for 135bhp/270ft/lb from a 200/300tdi...

Legally we can only fit tyre sizes homologated/type approved for the vehicle - same in Spain/France/Germany etc. So that's 255/85 as the biggest for a Defender and 245/70 for a Disco1/RRC. And 255's are being phased out world wide!

Yet at the LRMax show last weekend 35" tyres were everywhere, as were bob tailed Disco 1's not on a 'Q' plate, tray backed 90's etc

The law is ignored until someone gets killed http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/4323665/Father-Nigel-Gresham-jailed-after-Land-Rover-crash-killed-his-four-children.html
This guy paid the ultimate price for what were mostly common mods. Then he did time and was torn apart by the press (and we all know how accurate the British Press are don't we!)

[burn_e]

"Experts found the calliper on the offside front brake was larger than the one on the nearside front brake, which caused the car to slew when the brakes were applied.

The brake pedals were worn so badly that the brake pedal had to be pressed "pretty much down to the floor" before it began to stop the car."

???

speechless!

[Nonimouse]

You will never belive how much anger, confusion, upset, hatred, sympathy and general emotional turmoil that incident caused. Yet all in all the standard of 'mods' on vehicles hasn't got better, nor has the policing of those 'mods'

[TeriAnn]

A year ago, I evaluated whether to convert the engine in my 91 RR to a 300TDi. I decided against it. No matter how you tweak the facts, the costs of the conversion vs the improved fuel economy doesnt pay for itself.

In 1999 when my Land Rover was converted from a 2.25L petrol engine to a Ford 302 I really wanted to put a diesel engine into it for the increased fuel mileage. I wanted to stay 100% legal for California and was looking at small diesels sold into the US. My primary suspects were the LD28 (Nissan 2.8L six, sold in Maximas) and the SD33T (Nissan 3.3L six sold in ScoutIIs). I was insisting on having a fresh engine and fresh gearbox. I don't like the idea of starting out with an unknown engine that may or may not have issues or limited service life. Anyway when I ran the numbers the rebuild cost of the diesel alone was not that much less than the cost of a rebuilt 1968 Ford 302 (CA SMOG exempt), a rebuilt gearbox and the cost of the swap. Going diesel would have almost doubled the cost of the swap. I ran the fuel savings costs out and never really saw a break even point unless I could get free fuel.

Then around 2007 I had thoughts of a GM 6.2 diesel and ran the numbers with my engine bay already converted to fit a V8 and an already strengthened drive train. I ran the numbers again with 2007 fuel prices and figured I could not pay for the swap out of fuel savings between rebuilds. So I ended up converting my 302 from a carb to 1991 Mustang 5.0 EFI for additional fuel savings and let it go at that.

Fresh diesels are expensive and you never know what may have happened to a used one before it got removed from the vehicle it was in. You can never know the mileage on the engine or timing belt as a certainty. If it has been badly overheated or if the oil had ever been changed. I believe a used engine is like a buying a pig in a poke. You never know what's inside until after the seller has walked away with your money in his pocket.

And that's not counting State regulations in the US. People here have been talking putting a diesel engine that was never federalized, never offered for sale with the US into a vehicle that was never sold into the US as a diesel version.

On the other hand it is your wheelbarrow full of dollars to do with as you wish.

"We need to sell our Rover though we love it dearly. We have been transferred to another state and the landlord will not let us keep it"

[Viggen]

And that's not counting State regulations in the US. People here have been talking putting a diesel engine that was never federalized, never offered for sale with the US into a vehicle that was never sold into the US as a diesel version.

On the other hand it is your wheelbarrow full of dollars to do with as you wish.

"We need to sell our Rover though we love it dearly. We have been transferred to another state and the landlord will not let us keep it"

Thats always the trip right there. 300tdi is not a "legal" motor really. Neither are the popular 4BT, 4BD1T or OM617. They are either not federalized, not designed for light duty applications (4B motors) or too old (OM617). Its a gamble really and is dependent upon your State not caring. Right now they dont but I bet that soon enough, they will. I have read more than enough illegal car/ car modification stories where the Fed came and crushed the car to be scared enough. $5K for a motor setup plus labor costs (or time if you do it yourself) is a huge loss if the government does decide to pay attention (not to mention that the moment people finish said swap, they post up their information on the internet making it that much easier for the government to figure out where they are and that is, incidentally the very way I have seen the illegal cars tracked and crushed).

[Rocket Ship]

Given the state of US finances, I would really hope that at some point, somebody realizes, that the state can not afford to pay for a department who would care about something as trivial as a couple of guys putting different engines in their vehicles. This is the type of pointless regulation that is bankrupting your country.

Nonimouse, I had heard about that story a while ago, but was not up to date on the latest. Very tragic, but also an interesting case. However, are there any cases which have been seen in court, where a *properly* modified vehicle owner was in trouble with the law? Different size calipers on the same axle is so glaringly stupid, that guy deserves what he got. And the exact same thing could have happened to a completely stock Vauxhaul Vectra where the owner for some stupid reason cheaped out and put the wrong caliper on an axle. I really don't see how this is a question about modifications as much as it is a question of poor maintenance.

And, was he sentenced for the condition of his vehicle? Sounds like the actual sentence was for dangerous driving, and the modifications are besides the point?

It's a pretty poorly written article, that has clearly been sexed up. ie: the use of the word "cannibalising". Is vehicle recycling not common over there? Do people not use spare parts to keep their MG's on the road?

How can brake pedals be worn? Is it supposed to mean pads, but the journalist has no idea what they're really talking about? Yes, that is the case, I found another report that stated the rear pads were down to metal.

This is not a case where the guy was found guilty of driving modified vehicle. He was found guilty of driving a poorly maintained vehicle, and doing so dangerously.

[bobtail4x4]

I know Gresh well, and knew the kids who died.

he still maintains he was run off the road, by an oncoming van, (the one with 10 winesses who all "somehow" gave the same story)
the different callipers looked identical but the machining was different, an easy mistake,
they also made a big thing aboput the frame not being the original one, the old one rusted out and was swapped.

as Noni said you still see modified cars over here every day, but when an accident happens they look at them closer............

[Rocket Ship]

Interesting perspective. Didn't he feel the pull? That's a standard test I run. You should be able to stop hard with your hands off the wheel, without having the vehicle slew all over the road. Minor allowance are made for road-crown, etc.

What about the rear pads being worn to the pads?

What's the truth about the allegations that he had repeated problems with the rear suspension links in the weeks prior?

Not intending to re-try him here, but it's a very interesting case to me, and I'd love to have better details than what was provided in the media.

[Nonimouse]

If you took a brand new defender off the line our Crash Investigation Team vehicle examiners would find faults with it...

How often do we put off doing stuff to our Land Rovers - or as Frank Elson says wait until we have a round tuit

[Rocket Ship]

If you took a brand new defender off the line our Crash Investigation Team vehicle examiners would find faults with it...



Find faults, maybe. But it better darn well pass the tests to which it was certified, or somebody has some 'splaining to do. I'm not sure what test regimen the OEM's need to pass in the UK, but in the US, it's FMVSS.

But it reminds me of something that irritates me. Take a new car that passes the tests, and replace the tires with 100,000 mile guaranteed "Iron Ride" economy radials from Walmart, and it will fail those same tests. Yet, nobody would question the owner of the car if they had an accident.

[Nonimouse]

The Police tests are so high that they surpass the Manufacturers tests - then in the coroners court they give reasons to the fail - like tyre wear

[Snagger]

I ran the fuel savings costs out and never really saw a break even point unless I could get free fuel.
... I ran the numbers again with 2007 fuel prices and figured I could not pay for the swap out of fuel savings between rebuilds.

Fresh diesels are expensive and you never know what may have happened to a used one before it got removed from the vehicle it was in. You can never know the mileage on the engine or timing belt as a certainty. If it has been badly overheated or if the oil had ever been changed. I believe a used engine is like a buying a pig in a poke. You never know what's inside until after the seller has walked away with your money in his pocket.



These are the key points. The cost of an engine swap purely for fuel economy outweighs the cost of the higher fuel consumption of a petrol engine for about 10-15 years for the average owner unless you get a very cheap, second hand engine. There are some good ones out here, but most Tdis have done well over 100,000 miles and have probably been neglected too, with infrequent servicing, cheap oil (when changed) and possibly run for some period on dirty used vegoil or other substitute fuels. Most will not have had their injectors serviced or changed ever, let alone on schedule, which results in piston damage. Many will have been tweaked for more fuel delivery to increase performance, causing more wear and stress, and not many would have had the turbos looked after properly. this means that the cost of rebuilding the engine before fitting has to be included in the financial assessment.

It's incredible how most UK (and presumably US) owners will throw a Tdi (or other) transplant in without any apparent care as to its condition. They're robust engines, but not indestructible. Mine had a fairly new head on it when I bought it second hand, so I removed it. The damage I found to the no1 piston and bore was considerable - it had seized and broken free, leaving heavy scoring on one side, but though the last user of the donor Discovery had the head rebuilt, they ignored this damage. The belief that listening to the engine idle on a quick test run is a way to assess the condition of the engine is misguided - mine ran fine but was in no condition to be fitted to the 109...

[Nonimouse]

My last three 200Tdi's have been exceptional but I was lucky. However I budgeted for top end re-builds, injector refurbs etc All labour intensive.

I would never buy a 200 or 300 that had been run on Veg oil (or any diesel for that fact).

I always check the pump settings - easy to spot luckily

Same goes for a V8 though - I'm on the look out for a 110 V8 with an LPG conversion at the moment.

I'm lucky, I grew up with Land Rovers so I have a good idea of their foibles - added to which I live in their home country...

By the way do any of you guys know anything about the 2.5 Diesel XJ Cherry?

[LtFuzz]

By the way do any of you guys know anything about the 2.5 Diesel XJ Cherry?

Only that it looks about as cool as a bag of arseholes. :sombrero:

[reece146]

By the way do any of you guys know anything about the 2.5 Diesel XJ Cherry?

In North America we got a 2.1 Renault diesel powered XJ in the late 80s, early 90s IIRC. By all accounts it was a dog of an engine (slow).

The 2.5 was RoW only so I don't have any experience with them. The magazine articles I've read seemed to like them. Mid 30s mpg (Imp) IIRC.

I don't recall the manufacturer of the 2.5, may have been VM?

[Nonimouse]

It was a 2.5 VM yes. That makes me worry but also makes me interested. It's a good engine but an utter pig to work on - did very well in the GM Vauxhall/Opel range.

What is unkown is the rest of the drive train as it's the non quadratrac set up. I think it's the same as the Wrangler 5 speed with p/t 4wd. I know the axles are ok, the rear is a Dana 4x4 with LSD the front is a high pinion D30. Ride height is 1.5" over the 4.0
So it's the Aisin-Warner AX15 (?) and an NP231 COmmand Trac(?)

I like the style of the XJ - ok it's for my wife and they are cheap over here - it looks like a family of five would fit well

[reece146]

The rest of the drivetrain is pretty bulletproof with the possible exception of the rear Dana 35 if so equipped. The automatic that is used should be a Aisin-Warner AW4 (pretty much same as Toyota/Aisin A340). The XJ was available with the NV242J in NA also... not sure about RoW.

When talking about XJs

NV231J := Command-Trac
NV242J := Select-Trac

You can tell Select-Trac from the shift pattern: 2WD - Full-Time - Part-Time - 4 Low.

Full-Time is "Merkan" for AWD. Part-Time is Merkan for 4 High. Command-Trac doesn't have the FT/AWD setting.

[Nonimouse]

Cool beans - thanks for that

[PTY]

Hello Everyone,

Sorry for hijacking this threat but I have a question which I hope to get several opinions on.

I currently moved to Miami, Florida. I'm playing with the idea of buying a 1997 Land Rover Discovery SE7 Manual transmission with good mileage under 100k and do a transplant with a 300tdi engine. Getting the 300tdi with the transmission is not hard since I own a 97 D90 with 300tdi back home in Panama (god i miss her and impossible to import) that its in great condition. I know that Ill have to pay for shipping plus labor since i don't have the space, time nor tools to make this conversion. Any one out there knows a good/reputable place in or near the Miami area to make a conversion like this? I will also like to know the legal side of making this possible since theirs tons of regulations that cars need to pass... The USA is a great country but not been ably to see Nissan Patrols, Land Rovers or Fj80 with diesel engines around is a bummer.

Thanks

[Antichrist]

If you have emissions testing in Miami you probably won't be able to convert a '97. Not without fair bit of extra work to fake out the OBDII system.

[dcwhybrew]

If your 97 D90 300 TDI is illegal to import, why do you think a 97 Disco converted to TDI would be legal?

[Rocket Ship]

If you have emissions testing in Miami you probably won't be able to convert a '97. Not without fair bit of extra work to fake out the OBDII system.

What about one of the 300tdi's equiped with an OBDII system? They do exist. I keep thinking this is the way around that problem, but I never hear anybody talk about it. The OBDII is really simple, I think it only checks EGR function. So I'd think it would be possible to get it working and talking on the OBD port?