Another AT style trailer

[DBS311]

I went up to the 4wheelparts grand opening in Temecula, CA for a free tow strap and Hitch-Toys had a trailer on display. Looked ok, but there were some things I would want different if I spent that much on a trailer. I like the Adventure Trailers suspension set up much better. The guys from Hitch-Toys say they can make it any way you want, but I have a feeling that after a while they will only offer 1 or 2 trailer styles. You simply can't keep the price point low if you custom build each one. Their website is www.hitch-toys.com so check it out.

[Scenic WonderRunner]

I wanted that free tow strap too! I got the coupon in da mail.

But I figured it would cost me $20 bucks in gas to get the free tow strap.......all the while just polluting our air driving up there....only to be an el cheapo trying to get somthin fer nothin!

So I passed.

So for now.....I just keep praying the other guy on the trail has one. ....oops!

[flyingwil]

Interesting.... From the pictures looks lik it does not feature independent suspension like AT's, though.

[seth_js]

I dig it. The leaves don't bother me.

[Rezarf <><]

very cool design for the hinged lid... looks like it opens from either side. Hard to compare it to an AT other than the box.

[RunninRubicon]

Variety IS the spice of life. I am glad to see other trailers like this displayed.
Very nice, and the man's right...leaf springs are cool.

[ntsqd]

very cool design for the hinged lid... looks like it opens from either side.
At first I thot so too. Then I realized that the gas strut arrangement may not be so happy with a left side opening. Would be interesting to try it & see how it behaves.

I like the simple robustness of the live axle & leaves, but dislike the influence one tire has on the other - which is an argument against any live axle.

[cruiseroutfit]

At first I thot so too. Then I realized that the gas strut arrangement may not be so happy with a left side opening. Would be interesting to try it & see how it behaves...

But one could build a 4 stut system, that opened from both sides :cool:

[RunninRubicon]

At first I thot so too. Then I realized that the gas strut arrangement may not be so happy with a left side opening. Would be interesting to try it & see how it behaves.

I like the simple robustness of the live axle & leaves, but dislike the influence one tire has on the other - which is an argument against any live axle.

After viewing how an air-bag suspension works ON THE HIGHWAY, It's my humble opinion that this style of suspension has issues as well, it needs a sway-bar to stabilize it to make it perform as well as the old leave and live axle does, so it's a choice of compromises. Do you really need the flexability that the air-bags give you when 90% of the time your rolling down the highway or complicate it by adding more weight of the sway-bar. Then do you add disconnects for those flexy moments. Just something I've observed after following an AT for 2,000 over varying highway and terrain. They have issue as well. not bad but not perfect....but what is w/o some more weight/expense. So in MY estimation the leaves/live axle work very well for both scenarios I place it in. On and off road. The K.I.S.S. analogy work for me. But I know there are strong opinions to the contray here and no doubt I am about to hear them. But what's a forum for? It for a discussion of options and opinions/considered or not.

[ntsqd]

I mentally played around with how the struts might be placed so as to allow either side opening. I'm not sure why the struts are always laid over like they are. Seems like moving the mount points to vertical at the trailer centerline would allow either side to open equally. Would likely require a shorter strut [EDIT: with a softer spring rate]. Only thing I wonder about is why they are consistantly laid over. I'm thinking that didn't happen by accident, but I'm not sure whether it was a rising/falling rate thing or the first guy just did it that way and everyone else blindly follwed.

Dampers I can see being an absolute requirment with air springs in particular though any independent should have them. I'm wondering what you saw that lead you to they're also needing a swaybar. The sole experience that I've had so far with an independently sprung trailer is with rubber torsions. It tracked exceptionally well when I was driving Hwy 41 into Yosemite like a road racer & does not appear to need a swaybar. In no way could I expect air springs to behave the same way. Would be nice, but I can't start out expecting it.

FWIW A long stroke trailer suspension makes no sense to me at all. This isn't the Baja 1000 and they outlawed trailers in those races shortly after the first one was entered (& finished!) in something like 1970 Even frisky driving still doesn't need the kind of travel that the tow rig might want.
As the stroke gets shorter the spring & damping rates go up. Since there isn't an occupant comfort issue involved this isn't necessarily bad. The trailer need only have enough travel to adequately smooth out the ride enough so that things don't get beat up and the eggs stay whole.

Leaf springs didn't happen on trailers simply b/c they're cheap. Might have started out that way, but eventually the design of the springs resulted in no need for dampers due to their own internal friction providing enough damping for their short travel range.
Now when we take these carefully evolved springs and change the judgement criteria they fall short. That isn't good or bad, it's just that the change in our needs vs. what the design intent of the springs is needs to be recognized.
That is to say that you can't berate any IFS system for needing other bits b/c the leaf system doesn't have those. They do, it's just not obvious.

[RunninRubicon]

Points well made.
The phenomena I speak to, is swaying and then tracking out of the lane. It happened with the air-bags filled or let down to set the body on the suspension frame. The angle of the shocks do little to dampen the action of the A-arm at this angle (great at more open angles). But just the irregularities of a two-lane road would toss the trailer around the lane and at speed (at the speed limit or above) the trailer would lean and then track out of the lane. Unless you drove very smoothly and made turns with great precision, it wanted to leave it's intended track.
IMHO, my leave spring trailer, with very long CJ-7 springs (52") and air-shocks is much easier to trailer down the road. It holds the road everybit as well as my Jeep that pulls it.
It seemed to me that the load of both trailers were very close to the same as both only had a roof-top-tent on top and both carry about the same stuff. Only difference being is the AT is about 1700lbs and mine 13-1500.

[Martyn]

Points well made.
The phenomena I speak to, is swaying and then tracking out of the lane. It happened with the air-bags filled or let down to set the body on the suspension frame. The angle of the shocks do little to dampen the action of the A-arm at this angle (great at more open angles). But just the irregularities of a two-lane road would toss the trailer around the lane and at speed (at the speed limit or above) the trailer would lean and then track out of the lane. Unless you drove very smoothly and made turns with great precision, it wanted to leave it's intended track.
IMHO, my leave spring trailer, with very long CJ-7 springs (52") and air-shocks is much easier to trailer down the road. It holds the road everybit as well as my Jeep that pulls it.
It seemed to me that the load of both trailers were very close to the same as both only had a roof-top-tent on top and both carry about the same stuff. Only difference being is the AT is about 1700lbs and mine 13-1500.

What you describe is very unusual behavior for an Adventure Trailer. We’ve towed these trailers at speed on the road for thousands and thousands of miles and have had very positive results.

I’m sure you must have seen swaying and tracking problems but my initial feeling is that you pin pointed the resultant effect but maybe not the cause. As you say the problem occurred with the air bags inflated or deflated, so that would seem to rule out the suspension.

It’s always hard to in point these problems from a distance but my immediate reaction would be to look at tongue weight as a percentage of total weight and the tires. In the past problems like this have occurred due to a light tongue weight and tires that have a soft side wall construction.

Excessive trailer movement due to irregularities in the road surface can be amplified by lack of tongue weight and side wall construction, and also by over inflated airbags and incorrectly set shock absorbers. The Rancho 9000 shocks work best set to 9.

Remedying these problems should solve the issues. If the owner has any on going problems please have them contact us so we can resolve them with him.

[RunninRubicon]

What you describe is very unusual behavior for an Adventure Trailer. We’ve towed these trailers at speed on the road for thousands and thousands of miles and have had very positive results.

I’m sure you must have seen swaying and tracking problems but my initial feeling is that you pin pointed the resultant effect but maybe not the cause. As you say the problem occurred with the air bags inflated or deflated, so that would seem to rule out the suspension.

It’s always hard to in point these problems from a distance but my immediate reaction would be to look at tongue weight as a percentage of total weight and the tires. In the past problems like this have occurred due to a light tongue weight and tires that have a soft side wall construction.

Excessive trailer movement due to irregularities in the road surface can be amplified by lack of tongue weight and side wall construction, and also by over inflated airbags and incorrectly set shock absorbers. The Rancho 9000 shocks work best set to 9.

Remedying these problems should solve the issues. If the owner has any on going problems please have them contact us so we can resolve them with him.
Thank you Martyn, If we see this action continuing after assessing the weight distribution, and tire-pressures, we will indeed consult you for correction. We both appreciate your product concern and follow-up. It's great to have our ear available to evaluate our own short-comings.

[Martyn]

It's great to have our ear available to evaluate our own short-comings.

It has nothing to do with short comings. I'm just fortunate to have driven thousands of miles on and off road towing trailers. I also get to test drive and deliver scores of trailers, so if there is a problem that re occurs I'm able to address it immediately.

So far there have been no reoccurring problems or a theme of problems indicating a design problem or flaw. There have been some individual issues with trailers and most of them have revolved around, over or under inflated air bags, tires with less than stiff side walls, loose lug nuts, ball couplers coming uncoupled, leaking Schrader air valves, and other small annoying time consuming items.

Nothing magical going on at this end, just repetition and familiarity.

I'm in total agreement with you when you say "But what's a forum for? It's for a discussion of options and opinions/considered or not."

There are lots of ways to solve the same problem. Some are better than others, but not every solution will satisfy every person. If we can listen to all sides our own opinions may change, or we may see the problem from an angle we hadn't thought of.

By the way I like your trailer, and thanks for bringing it all the way up to Pyramid Lake. Very cool home made unit.




Being open minded leads to progress.

[RunninRubicon]

I appreciate the dialog. This is a great medium in which to share and learn.

You have made some very interesting points, many well considered.

Thank you for your opinion of my trailer.
Like your ATs, it is a work in progress. But for the most part, it does all I dare ask of it, follows wherever I lead. It avails a warm dry place to lay my head, a meal in which to fit my hunger, a cool drink to quench my thirst, a fire to lite my way at night and even opens doors to friendships both far and near.

Few things things in life are so sweet.

[Martyn]

I thought I’d add a little more to the leaf spring discussion. There is more to deal with than just the influence one tire has on the other here. I’m not totally against leaf springs but they have some limitations.

Designing for load;
With a leaf spring the design has to take into account the maximum load of the trailer. In the case of most utility trailers the cargo capacity can be as much as the trailer weighs itself, so it has to be able to handle a 100% gain in weight. The smoothness of the ride will be dependant on the cargo load, the closer you are to maximum capacity the less the bouncing. This is less of an issue with a vehicle as the load capacity % is much less than a trailer.

Reduction in travel;
As the cargo load increase the leaf spring start to bend downward de arching the springs. This downward movement reduces the amount of travel the suspension has to use for absorbsion. A reduction in an already short travel spring.

Slow reaction time:
Leaf springs need to be long to absorb high frequency bumps, but even long leaf springs and shock absorbers are not quick enough to absorb wash board and rough terrain. All of the trailer bounce is then transmitted through to the tow vehicle making a bumpy ride even more uncomfortable and difficult, damages cargo, stresses the trailer.

Weight of assembly:
The live axle assembly accounts for a considerable amount of weight, the axle, long springs and a couple of shock absorbers adds hundreds of pounds in weight to your trailer.


Multiple connections:
To gain clearance for 33 –38” tires most spring combinations need a shackle. The combination of a mechanically clamped series of leaves, and 3 bushings increase the likelihood of sway.

So it may be more than scrambled eggs you have to worry about, it could be something devastating like broken bottles of beer !!!! :Wow1:

[RunninRubicon]

Got it. Sprung and unsprung weight. Hence the addition of an air shock to compensate for added weight thus keeping near the original height and travel Something like adding air to air-bags.

Reaction to travel-Hear one should concur with your premise that leaves, even with teflon pads are slower to react then perhaps coils or air-bags. However, in this application, speed is NOT paramont and hence remembering to traverse rough roads with liberal applications of brake and forethought seems to steem the concern for my eggs and lantern socks. As you mentioned a long spring is more supple and reactive to change.

Weight is an issue, though there is something to be said about wear and tear. A typical leave pack serves there vehicles a very long service life with little to no attention required. There is no free lunch for performance.

Multiple connections.....I count 2 on leaves. Fore and aft. The shackles can count as 2 pair. 2 for the A-frame as well...not counting the shock mount, nor the air-bag mount though leaves can have shocks as well.

33's are on two trailers I can attest to that run standard length shackles and an under axle construct (much more stable then spring over). >33" tires, If you want more height, add a longer shackle or deeper arched springs. CJ and YJ suspension manufactures have been doing this since the 60's.

I agreed with your first statement-there are several ways to serve ones needs.

This discussion about leave springs, their strong and weak points has been tossed around a long time from many different folks. I recognize you have chosen to follow your intincts.....me too. It's that simple. It's just another way to look at things.

I appreciate that you have investigated the good and bad of an old suspension vs other technologies. Thus, one can appreciate the insight and reasoning behind your premise of using what you have. It is commendable.
The suspension under the AT is very cool. A very innovative approach to an old problem of shaken beer.

[cruiseroutfit]

For those with leaf sprung axles and weight concerns... air shocks or airbags (the latter would provide the most tuning ability). The technology is old and cheap to implement. Though in reality, you should try to design your spring rates around the loads you anticipate to carry. I never tow my trailer empty, so my unladen weight isn't remotely an issue. I designed my ride height and spring rate for the loads I constantly have... which don't seem to change by more than + or - say 50 lbs?

[Grim Reaper]

The biggest cause of sway is lack of tongue weight. It is usually recommended 10% of the total trailer weight.

You can actually loose tongue weight with speed. Depending on the airflow over the tow vehicle and the trailer it can actually cause lift on the front of the trailer. Volks Wagon did some wind tunnel tests that showed that. A small wing on the roof of the Tow Vehicle to kick the air up and over the front of the trailer does seem to help prevent the vacuum the forms between the trailer and tow rig lessening that lift.

You might be able to make significant changes to the handling with placement of the roof top tent if you have one on the trailer. Try moving it back and leave some open space on the front of the lid. The will change the wind foil shape.

Soft rear suspension on the tow vehicle can also lead to some sway complaints. I had a ramp queen K5 that I ended up with a BIG towing problem with and the suspension of the truck contributed to it heavily. I ended up adding two leafs to the pack. The extra spring rate really helped the towing manners and actually helped the on road ride and handling.

To much tongue weight can also give handling issues. Mostly noticed by a really light and non responsive feel in the steering.

[RunninRubicon]

For those with leaf sprung axles and weight concerns... air shocks or airbags (the latter would provide the most tuning ability). The technology is old and cheap to implement. Though in reality, you should try to design your spring rates around the loads you anticipate to carry. I never tow my trailer empty, so my unladen weight isn't remotely an issue. I designed my ride height and spring rate for the loads I constantly have... which don't seem to change by more than + or - say 50 lbs?

Excellent point. The weight only varies with water, fuel and food that is added to the trailers load. Easily w/i the ability of these leaf-springs to carry.

I suppose one big factor IS the easy and cost or implementing this suspensioin and as I originally mentioned, I like the analogy of keeping it simple. Shows you how much fore-thought an innovative suspension like that which is found under the AT took to implement.

Never meant to infere that a leaf spring suspension was superior. Just mentioned an observation that was made and received some pointers as to what might indeed be some corrections to make to a trailer with something else under it. The dialog has been informative though, for sure.

[Hitch-Toys]

Thanks for the coments on my Hitch-Toys trailer. If you have any questions please feel free to ask me.

Thanks John

[Hitch-Toys]

Here is a picture if any have not seen our trailers yet.

[RunninRubicon]

Nice picture of a nice little trailer. Kinda M114.

[Andrew Walcker]

John, welcome aboard! :beer:

Nice looking trailer, how long have you been building them?

[Hitch-Toys]

Thank you.
I Built this trailer 6 years ago. Just for myself to wheel, fish and camp around Moab, Rubicon, Baja and all the local trails around California and surounding states. Within my travels I have had a lot of interest to build and sell these trailers. This year I am giving it a shot. So far so good.

[Hitch-Toys]

To answer your question directly. I just started to build them in May of this year.

[ntsqd]

snip.........
Shows you how much fore-thought an innovative suspension like that which is found under the AT took to implement.

Now I'm curious what AT's suspension looks like. Missed a prime chance as I never paid any attention to Rod's trailer when it was around.
Are there any pictures online?

John, I've long pondered what the market would be for a near 1/4t trailer clone. I've wanted to build one for myself. Have zero need for it, just looked like a really cool project. I hope it pays off for you.

[Willman]

Great looking trailer!!!!

Are those 35" or 33" tires on that trailer????

Good luck.....you have a good looking product:box:

:D

[Hitch-Toys]

Thank you! This trailer has 35's.

[Hitch-Toys]

Here is a picture of the Jeep this trailer was built for.

[Skylinerider]

Very nice. Someday I'll be able to afford a trailer. :cool:

[RunninRubicon]

Boy! Add a roof-top-tent of some sort a water can or two, toss your gear and your done! Very nice. Best of luck with your product. Great price...it should do well.:arabia:

[RunninRubicon]

Now I'm curious what AT's suspension looks like. Missed a prime chance as I never paid any attention to Rod's trailer when it was around.
Are there any pictures online?

John, I've long pondered what the market would be for a near 1/4t trailer clone. I've wanted to build one for myself. Have zero need for it, just looked like a really cool project. I hope it pays off for you.

AT trailers have a unique and innovative A-frame set in poly mounts that utilize an air-bag suspension and a shock for dampening. It provides an independant suspension and a great deal of travel and yes there are pictures on this site or you can just go to their web-site. Much nicer then say Tentrax IMHO. Certainly larger and has many options available.

[Hitch-Toys]

Thank you.
All the accessories you speak of are in the works. I do have a hitch mounted table, hitch mounted spare tire carrier, roof top racks and the trailer comes with a fender mounted table.

[RunninRubicon]

Thank you.
All the accessories you speak of are in the works. I do have a hitch mounted table, hitch mounted spare tire carrier, roof top racks and the trailer comes with a fender mounted table.

Very Cool. Folks who find themselves shopping for a M101 (1/4ton) trailer will be delighted to find your product. Generally speaking here, most people like to hang a gas can and/or water cans, Propane off the side because the inside has to hold the frig and stove and such. Keeping these things as options keeps the bottom line starting rig's price down and allows the customer to custom order to his taste. Very smart.
We wish you well.