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McFly2003
12-07-2011, 03:24 AM
Ok, so over on t4r.org, we are trying to get a group buy together on Safari Snorkels and getting mixed results in interest. I figured the folks over here would be much more likely to bite. Anyone interested?? The deal is through Sierra Expeditions and will be 15% off with free shipping. Not a bad deal if you ask me! we only need 5 people but I figured there would be more
http://www.toyota-4runner.org/3rd-gen-t4rs/103342-snorkel-would-nice-6.html

cruiseroutfit
12-07-2011, 04:23 AM
Hope it works out for you guys. A few things you might pass along to your forum as there seems to be some real polarized opinions in that thread. ARB does not own nor manufacture Safari Snorkel products, they are however the sole distributor for them here in the US. Selling snorkels at $250 would be a loss for 90% of ARB dealers out there. As a general rule this industry has ~20-30% markup at the retailer level so even 15% is very generous considering that by the time you add 2-3% for credit card or PayPal fees the end retailer may be making very little per unit. Group buys are great and can often work out for both the customer and the vendor but in some case teh expectations just won't work out and for a retailer the amount of effort that is often involved with group buys doesn't make sense for minimal profit. Not trying to crush the plans but I see many members on your link saying they will buy if its $250 and again I can promise you there are few ARB dealers in the US buying below that mark. ;)

I recently wrote a Tacoma snorkel article for Tacoma Magazine, while its obviously aimed at Tacoma's its the same snorkel so much (all) of the advice, tips and tricks are the same. You might share with your forum members if nothing else so they can have one more opinion on what is a pretty permanent mod to their rig and waterproofing doesn't end at the snorkel in fact it shouldn't even start with the snorkel it should start with the vulnerable items below it. Article is here: http://www.tacomamag.com/rokstories-frontpage/february-2011-volume-1-issue-1

slooowr6
12-07-2011, 04:46 AM
Hope it works out for you guys. A few things you might pass along to your forum as there seems to be some real polarized opinions in that thread. ARB does not own nor manufacture Safari Snorkel products, they are however the sole distributor for them here in the US. Selling snorkels at $250 would be a loss for 90% of ARB dealers out there. As a general rule this industry has ~20-30% markup at the retailer level so even 15% is very generous considering that by the time you add 2-3% for credit card or PayPal fees the end retailer may be making very little per unit. Group buys are great and can often work out for both the customer and the vendor but in some case teh expectations just won't work out and for a retailer the amount of effort that is often involved with group buys doesn't make sense for minimal profit. Not trying to crush the plans but I see many members on your link saying they will buy if its $250 and again I can promise you there are few ARB dealers in the US buying below that mark. ;)

I recently wrote a Tacoma snorkel article for Tacoma Magazine, while its obviously aimed at Tacoma's its the same snorkel so much (all) of the advice, tips and tricks are the same. You might share with your forum members if nothing else so they can have one more opinion on what is a pretty permanent mod to their rig and waterproofing doesn't end at the snorkel in fact it shouldn't even start with the snorkel it should start with the vulnerable items below it. Article is here: http://www.tacomamag.com/rokstories-frontpage/february-2011-volume-1-issue-1

Kurt,
The download link in the link you posted does not work. Please help.

Thanks
Alex

cruiseroutfit
12-07-2011, 04:57 AM
Kurt,
The download link in the link you posted does not work. Please help.

Thanks
Alex


Sorry, I'm not sure whats up. I'm simply a contributor for the magazine so I don't have any control over their site but I'll email them and see if they can get the link fixed. Worst case I'll post the story up here on ExPo. Thanks for the heads up on the bad link.

McFly2003
12-07-2011, 05:34 AM
Wow, thank you for the insight. I've grown tired of listening [reading] to people complain about the price of something that they wont buy anyway. I will pass on the info.

In the meantime, if anyone is interested in the deal (15% off w/ free shipping from Sierra Expeditions), let me know and we will get you on the list!

cruiseroutfit
12-07-2011, 05:43 AM
Wow, thank you for the insight. I've grown tired of listening [reading] to people complain about the price of something that they wont buy anyway. I will pass on the info.

No problem, hope its helpful. Many work in industries that do have 100% markup (saw that mentioned on your thread) or even more... the truth is that auto accessories for the most part are not able to hold those margins. I was contacted by a manufacture today that was boasting their ability to offer 20% margins to their dealers and to be honest I didn't even second guess it as it is the norm for many :D

McFly2003
12-07-2011, 05:47 AM
yeah, I believe it! I am very interested in information regarding waterproofing. I will start another thread for it

sleeoffroad
12-07-2011, 04:23 PM
I have to echo what Kurt said. We are also a large ARB dealer. I read the thread on t4r and people are simply misinformed about the industry, especially about the snorkels. At the price Will is offering it, he is not making any money. We all buy at roughly the same price from ARB, so I know the wholesale cost. I also know that going to ARB and asking for additional discount because we are buying $6k of snorkels is not going to work. This is based on our monthly purchase volume and the discounts we get. $6k is a small blib on the radar.

The other issue is shipping. Snorkels come in large boxes. Normally around 51"x16"x8". That equates to a dimensional weigh of 33lbs for shipping. Plug that into UPS and see what you get. So you are probably looking at $20 to $25 per snorkel to ship. Add to that processing charges etc etc and you will quickly see that Will is really doing the people a favor and not making any money on the deal.

That is the reality of the US distribution for Safari Snorkels. Now does Safari make good money on them since they are the manufacturer. Probably so. Does ARB make money, no. Importing those things are not fun. Anytime you are dealing with a low cost item that takes up large volumes, shipping plays havoc on the profit margin. A snorkel takes up 3.7 cu ft of space with a retail value of $350/$400. You can pack about 3 to 4 lockers in the same space. That has a retail value of about $3500. Guess which one I would rather pack in the container?

Now they don't just fill the container with snorkels, but the bottom line is that it takes up a lot of space vs possible profit.

TangoBlue
12-07-2011, 06:38 PM
Just my observations here and by no means am I trying to "snorkel" any vendors for a "good deal."

Seriously, I don't see how vendors in this community of interest can manage to make a living out of it. This is not the banking or oil industries that we often associate with high profits and market manipulation. This is an off-road community - a lot of these businesses would rather be on the trail than behind a PC. Many of these outfits do what they do because they love it, do it well, and selling parts helps to finance their mania. And I certainly appreciate their innovation, imagination, and entrepreneurship... which also has a cost.

Weigh all the other costs of owning a business, plus the huge cost of human capitol... we aren't looking at a bunch of "overlanding barons." Is there money to be made? Sure, but I don't think it is in the volume that some consumers think in this industry.

When I see consumers angry because they aren't being given a product at less than cost, I'd like to remind them of the sales person on the phone or the other end of the computer, the tech in the shop, or any number of folks in the supply chain who have to pay the mortgage/rent, feed their family, and maybe have enough money for a few of the pleasures we often take for granted.

I don't just throw my money around; I have a responsibility to search for the best product, price, and vendor. But fair is fair - vendors have the expectation to meet commitments not just to us, the consumer, but to a whole team of folks responsible for those products. Think "big-picture."

Well, except Christo maybe - he suffers from chronic-currency-wazoo-arrhea. ;)

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp22/TangoBlue/SLEELimo1.jpg

McFly2003
12-07-2011, 07:14 PM
I completely agree. I have no issues with the price of these products, I just haven't had the $375-400 to spend on one just yet. The deal we have been presented is an amazing one and I really do hope we get the numbers to make it happen. It just really irks me sometimes on these forums (not really ever in this one, but definitely on others) when people click a thread and decide to say idiotic things. I get tue whole free speech thing, but really? Haha. Anyway, back to the shnorkels, anyone else interested, I have already received a few P's (responded to btw).

Sent from my DROIDX using Tapatalk

rsbmg
12-07-2011, 07:15 PM
Tacoma owners get on this?

McFly2003
12-08-2011, 03:59 AM
As far as I know, yes. It would be the same snorkel I would use. The OP of the t4r thread also posted on ih8mud for the LC guys so I am assuming this is for anyone interested

upcountry
12-08-2011, 04:24 AM
Tacoma owners get on this?

Depends which Taco generation, right? Can one of you more experienced vendors weigh in on this?

As far as I am aware there is no official snorkel kit for the second generation tacoma. Cruiser Outfitters (thank you Kurt and Tacodoc) has done a good job of fitting a Hilux snorkel into a custom kit that will fit on the second generation but there is not official safari snorkel kit available "yet". Perhaps I am wrong?

If I am right, I am not sure what kit you would be buying for a second generation tacoma (if you are looking for a secong generation).

If I choose to go with a snorkel I would probably buy it from CruiserOutfitters because the kit seems to come with the right peices and now reportedly comes with an improved template for drilling .......less guessing and nibblinv to get the hole right.

In closing, I am curious about what parts the group buy would include for the second generation.

If the group buy does not includs second generation tacomas please ignore this post!

Thanks for putting together this thread.

cruiseroutfit
12-08-2011, 04:47 AM
...As far as I am aware there is no official snorkel kit for the second generation tacoma. Cruiser Outfitters (thank you Kurt and Tacodoc) has done a good job of fitting a Hilux snorkel into a custom kit that will fit on the second generation but there is not official safari snorkel kit available "yet". Perhaps I am wrong?

That is correct. While there has been demand for Safari Snorkel to produce a 2nd Gen Tacoma snorkel, there just wasn't enough interest for them to proceed. In hind-site the 1st generation Tacoma (SS170HF) took far longer to fulfill the R&D cost than they had hoped and that kinda put the nail in the 2nd Gen. We've sold well over a hundred of the SS135MOD (our part number) snorkels, but I was originally told that Safari needs to sale at least 250 to even consider building a snorkel. As the Tacoma is North America specific, the demand just doesn't satisfy their requirements. I've personally installed a dozen or better of the SS135MOD snorkels, it can be made to fit 95% as clean as the standard Safari Snorkel install and in fact a better fit in my opinion than some of their models that are not quite US specific (40 and 60 Series for example).


...If I choose to go with a snorkel I would probably buy it from CruiserOutfitters because the kit seems to come with the right peices and now reportedly comes with an improved template for drilling .......less guessing and nibblinv to get the hole right.

Correct, it does ship with our exclusive 2nd Gen Tacoma template that has the install down several hours from Tacodocs excellent install instructions (http://www.cruiseroutfitters.com/tech_2ndgenTaco_snorkel.html). His instructions still provide the bulk of the install info but you can basically skip Step 3, the 'trial and error' portions when using the Hilux template. We are actually working on a less labor intensive snorkel template and additional parts to refine this kit more but its really pretty good to go as of now. We literally hand mark and cut the templates now in batches, we double and triple check them against our master template for quality control and them package them in the snorkel kits for shipment... labor intensive and we didn't change the retail pricing on the snorkel with the change, just made it a perk. Thanks for the plug btw.

upcountry
12-08-2011, 05:11 AM
One mostly on-topic question:

Does anyone know how the safari snorkle performs in rain or snow?

I'm not talking about a nice colorado front range style summer thundershower.....I'm talking about downright miserable 180 days straight rain and mist. Does it drain well or is do the drain holes on the head plug up with moss like the roof on my house?

Does snow plug it up?

If it can be turned around, does that detract from airflow to the motor?

I'm on the fence here.

cruiseroutfit
12-08-2011, 05:21 AM
...Does anyone know how the safari snorkle performs in rain or snow?

Does snow plug it up?

If it can be turned around, does that detract from airflow to the motor?

I can't comment on the rain as you describe as we frankly don't get enough rain in Utah let alone enough to grow moss :D
The rain we do have has never been an issue on my applications and my paper air filters never show any signs of water (i.e. mud or grunge buildup)

Snow however we have plenty of, I've daily driven my snorkel equipped vehicles in Utah's winters for the last 11 years. I'm 20 minutes from the 4 big ski resorts and have never had an issue. The paper air filter is going to stop and catch any moisture that does make its way that far and the flow of air will immediately dry it out imo and the stock airbox has small drain holes for water that does make it in. To add some anecdotal evidence to the game, I've got local customers that have 15-20 year old snorkel installs and have never reported a problem.

There was a pretty thorough thread here on ExPo about turning the snorkel ram around, I suppose it could cause an issue on snorkel applications that are at or near the recommended CFM threshold for their engine but plenty do it with no reported ill effects. As I recall they did not less airflow with the head reversed. I'll see if I can find the thread.

Edit: Found it...
http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/66501-snorkel-position
(its a little disjointed as apparently some members deleted all their posts on the entire forum???)

Edit#2: This was actually the thread I was thinking of, check out the testing they did on their blog.
http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/55274-About-the-backwards-facing-snorkel-conundrum

upcountry
12-08-2011, 05:31 AM
Little cottonwood canyon is an unreal location. My neighbor here jn Seattle went to UU and was a tram operator at Snowbird for his 6 year college stint. He raves about that area.

Does the bottom of the snorkle feed tube where it travels along the fender or where it enters into the fenderwell bave any holes or reserviors like the OEM design does? (Initial air feed box behind the washer resi that has a sump in it to retain water that might enter?)

Good to hear real life evidence that it does not seem to be a problem. I don't know many who have them but at the next northwest overland society meet-up ill check them out. One guy has a real nice 200 series LC.

TangoBlue
12-08-2011, 05:34 AM
Good to hear real life evidence that it does not seem to be a problem. I don't know many who have them but at the next northwest overland society meet-up ill check them out. One guy has a real nice 200 series LC.

The 200-series LC belongs to sbly on this forum. He lives on BI now.

http://i394.photobucket.com/albums/pp22/TangoBlue/CIMG1059.jpg

cruiseroutfit
12-08-2011, 05:46 AM
Little cottonwood canyon is an unreal location. My neighbor here jn Seattle went to UU and was a tram operator at Snowbird for his 6 year college stint. He raves about that area.

My backyard, wish I were 5 minutes away but I can be to some great hiking in 5-10 minutes LCC is one of my favorite places to recreate sans 4x4.


Does the bottom of the snorkle feed tube where it travels along the fender or where it enters into the fenderwell bave any holes or reserviors like the OEM design does? (Initial air feed box behind the washer resi that has a sump in it to retain water that might enter?)

No, it is pretty straightforward for clean flow.


Good to hear real life evidence that it does not seem to be a problem. I don't know many who have them but at the next northwest overland society meet-up ill check them out. One guy has a real nice 200 series LC.

For sure, no better way than to ask the opinions of others that own them. The first 200 Series was the most daunting snorkel install I ever did to date, not because its a difficult install in fact is a relatively easy one but there is something about cutting a 4" hole in a $75k vehicle with several hundred miles. We were doing quite a few 100 Series and FJC installs when they were near new but it wasn't nearly as nerve racking. Measure 5 times cut once :D

CCFD170
12-08-2011, 09:55 AM
Does this group but apply to 4th gen runners?

Corey
12-08-2011, 11:00 AM
One mostly on-topic question:

Does anyone know how the safari snorkle performs in rain or snow?

I'm not talking about a nice colorado front range style summer thundershower.....I'm talking about downright miserable 180 days straight rain and mist. Does it drain well or is do the drain holes on the head plug up with moss like the roof on my house?

Does snow plug it up?

If it can be turned around, does that detract from airflow to the motor?

I'm on the fence here.

Have had my snorkel on for a few years here in the rain soaked PNW.
No need to turn it around in driving nasty rain or snow.
And my holes are plugged in the snorkel too, as ARB asked me during the installation if I wanted them plugged, and I said yes.

The Safari snorkel in made to not let in rain.
Never had a problem with snow either since the intake head is slightly angled down.
Very ingenious design that simply works.

targa88
12-09-2011, 03:20 AM
I must respectfully disagree with Corey.
Having run with a snorkel for a number of years. Never had any issues until recently. Heavy wet snow storm in Idaho (Oct.). Clogged the snorkel solid, Had to disconnect it until the snow thawed out.

McFly2003
12-09-2011, 03:39 AM
I am assuming so as some of the other folks in our group buy are 80 and 100 series LC owners. PM sent
Does this group but apply to 4th gen runners?

McFly2003
12-09-2011, 03:43 AM
If anyone is interested, this is the last call. Group buy ends tomorrow, 12-9-11. PM me and I will give you a promotion code that you need to call up and give to the guys at SE for the special rate. cheers!:sombrero: