Flat Towing

[wesel123]

Hey guys,

Does anyone know the details/rules to flat towing a 98 4x4 5spd 4Runner. I have to go to Kanasas for work for a year and plan on buying an RV and tow my 98 behind me.

[DaveInDenver]

Do you have manual hubs in the front, by chance? The one time I had to flat tow my truck I dropped the rear drive shaft and left the front hubs unlocked. That seemed OK. With ADD in the front, I dunno if you have to do anything different. Does the owner's manual address this? Maybe getting a tow dolly, put the front wheels on it and drop the rear drive shaft?

[CYi5]

When I flat tow my Samurai around, I set the key to Acc and put the shifter in 2nd, per the owners manual. For short trips I don't bother with removing the rear driveshaft, and you can definitely hear the lockright clicking. The front hubs remain unlocked as well.

For longer trips i'd recommend removing the rear driveshaft.

[whipp]

When I flat tow my Samurai around, I set the key to Acc and put the shifter in 2nd, per the owners manual. For short trips I don't bother with removing the rear driveshaft, and you can definitely hear the lockright clicking. The front hubs remain unlocked as well.

For longer trips i'd recommend removing the rear driveshaft.

Transfercase in neutral, right?

[Andrew Walcker]

Hey guys,
I have to go to Kanasas for work for a year and plan on buying an RV and tow my 98 behind me.

Ian, say it ain't so!!! You can't leave us!!!

[CYi5]

Transfercase in neutral, right?

Correct, sorry I forgot that detail.

[BogusBlake]

Correct, sorry I forgot that detail.

Doesn't matter what gear the T-case is in if the front hubs are freespooling and the rear driveshaft is disconnected. (but it never hurts to be redundant)

I flat tow my Toyota buggy all over the place. Unlock the hubs and take the rear driveshaft off the rear axle. Toyota Tcases don't get oil unless the input shaft is turning. Marlin explains this in detail somewhere in the Toyota FAQ on Pirate.

Not sure about what would happen with an ADD system, but if it doesn't burn up when you're just driving around in 2wd, I don't see why anything would be different when towing if you leave the T-case in H2 and tie up the rear shaft.

Be sure to disconnect the battery and leave the key in the ACC position so the steering wheel isn't locked or else the truck won't track right.

[wesel123]

Thanks for the sentament Andrew. But its looking that way. Although I'll be home every other weekend (not much of a concession for the wife and kids though). Its not going to happen until the end of the year so we better get some wheelin' time together!!!!!



Ian, say it ain't so!!! You can't leave us!!!

[wesel123]

Do you have manual hubs in the front, by chance? The one time I had to flat tow my truck I dropped the rear drive shaft and left the front hubs unlocked. That seemed OK. With ADD in the front, I dunno if you have to do anything different. Does the owner's manual address this? Maybe getting a tow dolly, put the front wheels on it and drop the rear drive shaft?

I was plannning on changing to manual hubs to defeat the ADD system and disconnet the rear drive shaft just to make sure. Transfer case in Nutural and key turned to ACC.

Unfortunalty the owners manual says not to flt tow, but I'm pretty sure thats due to the ADD????? I think????

[ntsqd]

I've logged something in the range of 10,000 miles flat towing my 'glas buggy. With that vehicle in flat tow you can not back up.

No idea if this is true with a 4rnnr or not, but I suggest finding out b4 heading off.

[DaveInDenver]

Unfortunalty the owners manual says not to flt tow, but I'm pretty sure thats due to the ADD????? I think????
Could be that or it's also bad to flat tow a Toyota with the rear driveshaft connected, like Bogus says, because of the oiling. The owner's manual is not going to tell you to drop the rear shaft and then it's OK, that's outside the expected use or something like that.

[Lynn]

I used to know a guy with an old CJ5 (or M38, not sure) that he flat-towed regularly. He had installed locking hubs on all four corners.

Don't know it it's possible on the Toy, though. Or even worth looking into if you are only towing it once.

[DaveInDenver]

I used to know a guy with an old CJ5 (or M38, not sure) that he flat-towed regularly. He had installed locking hubs on all four corners.

Don't know it it's possible on the Toy, though. Or even worth looking into if you are only towing it once.
Converting to a full floater with hub locks is possible.

Front Range Offroad Link (http://frontrangeoffroadfab.com/nfoscomm/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=94&osCsid=1c0d3e937d53f586e34566acf4a441ce)

[ntsqd]

Converting to a full floater with hub locks is possible.

Front Range Offroad Link (http://frontrangeoffroadfab.com/nfoscomm/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=94&osCsid=1c0d3e937d53f586e34566acf4a441ce)
FWIW I would only do that with the OE Aisin locking hubs. A friend (AKA "MISF" or "My Infamous Scout Friend") has the Warn floating conversion on his Scout. At the sales rep's insistence he started out with their locking hubs instead of the drive flanges that he originally requested. Then when one of the second set of hubs failed it took out the already compromised rear axle, and more expensively, the Detroit. They did replace the axle and the hubs with drive flanges, but he's still out the price of a Detroit.

I'm sure that it's possible but I've never seen an Aisin hub fail. I've seen too many Warns fail to consider going that direction.

[njtaco]

I've logged something in the range of 10,000 miles flat towing my 'glas buggy. With that vehicle in flat tow you can not back up.

No idea if this is true with a 4rnnr or not, but I suggest finding out b4 heading off.

A few thoughts:

Don't worry about the ADD, it is made to do what you are doing...driving around without power to the front wheels.

Disconnect the driveshaft, as the transfer case pumps from the input shaft, as mentioned above. (AFAIK)

Regarding backing up...because of front suspension caster settings, you should NOT attempt backing up with a flat-towed vehicle. I can be done in theory, and I'm sure someone can profess to accomplishing this feat, but please do not try it. BTW, the lighter the front end, the harder it is to do.

With the rear driveshaft disconnected, transmission should be in park, transfer case in 2Hi. This keeps the driveshaft from twisting up whatever you are supporting it with. (Assuming it is not removed completely...can you do this on your truck?)

Turn to ACC and unlock steering, for reasons mentioned in above posts.

If you have a set of old tires and rims in good shape to put on the front, the same size as the rear, you may want to change them for a long haul. Flat towing is hard on front tires.

[Lynn]

If you have a set of old tires and rims in good shape to put on the front, the same size as the rear, you may want to change them for a long haul. Flat towing is hard on front tires.

If you are just using these tires for towing, and won't be engaging the xfer case, why does size matter?

[DaveInDenver]

FWIW I would only do that with the OE Aisin locking hubs.

I'm sure that it's possible but I've never seen an Aisin hub fail. I've seen too many Warns fail to consider going that direction.
True, true, true. Aisin hubs or drive plates only!

Also aftermarket hubs apparently do not allow full spine engagement and can break the diff, like your buddy saw. The only nice thing I can think of about using a Warn here is I think they offered a set with a little Allen bolt that you can use to lock the hub into it's engaged position.

[ntsqd]

A thot on the lubrication 'pump'. Far be it for me to contradict an expert on yota t/c's such as Marlin, But the 'pump' is a multi-lead Acme screw thread in a carefully shaped housing that is the rear-most bearing carrying casting for the rear axle output shaft of the t/c. That mildly pressurized oil is sent up a center galley in the rear output shaft & dumped into the pilot bearing in the range case.

Which leaves me confused about his quoted recommendation.

Perhaps it's not the pump at issue at all, perhaps it is the lack of splash lubrication from the range case gears turning?

In any case, I'd say that Blake's proven that d/c-ing the rear driveline is the safest method.

And FWIW, while I have successfully backed up the buggy while under tow, it is not easy, has severe limitations on what you can attempt, and it requires a savvy second person to steer the towed vehicle. That second person's job isn't quite as easy as it might sound.
Much, much easier to go with the idea that you aren't going to back-up.

[njtaco]

If you are just using these tires for towing, and won't be engaging the xfer case, why does size matter?

It may not...:o

I guess I pictured 33's in the back and 30's in the front, or vs-vs, leading to a change in caster/camber, leading to premature tire wear or poor stability... sort of a worst-case scenario. I do think they should be the same side-to-side though! :D


And FWIW, while I have successfully backed up the buggy while under tow, it is not easy. ... ... Much, much easier to go with the idea that you aren't going to back-up.

Told ya someone has done it! LOL And again, just plan like you can't, and stay out of trouble.

[ntsqd]

snip.........
Also aftermarket hubs apparently do not allow full spine engagement and can break the diff, like your buddy saw.

Detroits rarely survive a rapid unloading of only one side. When a hub or axle shaft fails it's been my observation that it nearly always takes out the Detroit too. If there ever was a reason to go spool instead of a Detroit in a hard core rig, there it is.



Told ya someone has done it! LOL And again, just plan like you can't, and stay out of trouble.
Second THAT motion, who'll carry?
LOL

[wesel123]

This is seeming like a bad idea to flat tow my 4Runner. I'm thinking its time for my first jeep, under the assumption that I can flat tow one fo those. :rolleyes:

[ntsqd]

Rent a tow dolly, and drop the read driveline. Much cheeper than a "Just Empty Every Pocket."

[njtaco]

This is seeming like a bad idea to flat tow my 4Runner.

No worse than most other IFS 4x4s...people do it all the time.


I'm thinking its time for my first jeep, under the assumption that I can flat tow one fo those. :rolleyes:



IDK if you can flat tow any modern Jeep any easier than your 98, but if you are looking for excuses to buy one, well... :cool:

[DaveInDenver]

This is seeming like a bad idea to flat tow my 4Runner. I'm thinking its time for my first jeep, under the assumption that I can flat tow one fo those. :rolleyes:
How is a Jeep any different? I know the old NP205 case is pretty similar in that you can only flat tow with the rear driveshaft disconnected and the front hubs open. I'd figured that just about anything else is going to be about the same.

[Ridgewalker]

IMO I'd rent a car trailer. You will be able to tow it with an RV (if the RV is rated for it). You can back it up just like any trailer. It will not wear anything on your 4Runner. And finally you won't have to buy and install a tow bar and magnetic light system for the tow.

I flat towed my '87 Sami all the time behind my F250 with cabover camper. I did back it up a few times, mostly on dirt roads. Basically you bind everything and side slip the tires (not good on tires). This only worked because the 9,000+ lb F250 and camper vastly out weighed and out powered the 2500 lb Sami. It wasn't a pretty picture, but it worked in my case.

Just think about the trailer.:confused:
Good luck on your decision and job.

[wesel123]

Wow I thought jeeps are the easiset to tow!!!! Shows you what I dont know.

So you all think the to dolly the front tow wheels and remove the drive shaft and I'll be ok??? That seems to be the concensus.

[Scenic WonderRunner]

HiYa .....Wesel!

I dunno why this thread already has 3 pages and nobody has decided what to do!

Here is what I did..........

http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i156/ScenicWonderRunner/2007_0220HiNLoDesertRunners0248.jpg


It's not that hard............Just Do It!



.

[frgtwn]

There may be a consensus, but everything outside of a trailer is a compromise. For my money, I like the safety factor, and that no wear and tear is being added to the towed vehicle.

My experience:

LA to Albuquerque (I move friends on occasion.)
LA to Dallas
LA to Nashville
LA to Tucson

Buy a trailer right, make your round trip, sell it for nearly what you paid for it.

I like Kansas, hope you do too.

Dale

[ntsqd]

HiYa .....Wesel!

I dunno why this thread already has 3 pages and nobody has decided what to do!

Here is what I did..........

http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i156/ScenicWonderRunner/2007_0220HiNLoDesertRunners0248.jpg


It's not that hard............Just Do It!



.

Ballarat?

[Photog]

A thot on the lubrication 'pump'. Far be it for me to contradict an expert on yota t/c's such as Marlin, But the 'pump' is a multi-lead Acme screw thread in a carefully shaped housing that is the rear-most bearing carrying casting for the rear axle output shaft of the t/c. That mildly pressurized oil is sent up a center galley in the rear output shaft & dumped into the pilot bearing in the range case.

Which leaves me confused about his quoted recommendation.

Perhaps it's not the pump at issue at all, perhaps it is the lack of splash lubrication from the range case gears turning?

This is the meat of the matter. Somehow, this is how you solve this problem. If your tow vehicle isn't rated to haul the weight of a vehicle plus the weight of a car trailer, you have to flat-tow. And having to remove and re-install the rear driveshaft, would be a PITA, on a regular basis.

If it is a one-time tow, the driveshaft removal would be fine; but not on a weekley basis (weekend trips).

So, does the T/C oil pump move any oil, if the rear driveshaft is spinning, but not the input shaft?

[Photog]

One more question: My 1988 4Runner and my 2004 4Runner do not have a "N" position in transfercase. I was looking at a 2002 Tacoma, and it does have "N" on the T/C lever.

This thread is discussing flat-towing a Toyota. Does the vehicle in question have a neutral position in the T/C?

With the vehicles that do have a neutral position in the T/C, is there a problem with flat-towing in that position?

[cydonia-jacc]

I flat tow an FJ Cruiser behind a motorhome. I take the family on vacations with it regularly so unbolting the driveshaft was not an option. I thought about a trailer but I wasn't sure what to do with it at campgrounds. I ended up purchasing a disconnecting driveshaft from Remco. I have towed a couple of thousand miles now without a problem. The instruction manual that came with the shaft stated to place trans in park and t/c in 2hi. I'm not sure if they offer one for your runner but you can check their website.

[Photog]

Does that disconnect get hung up on the rocks or brush?

[cydonia-jacc]

Does that disconnect get hung up on the rocks or brush?

Good question. It hasn't happened yet. There is a smooth plate on the bottom but I'm not sure what kind of an impact it could take.

[ntsqd]

I keep forgetting to photo-document the 'oil pump' in the partly disassembled Marlin Crawler. As this is a first gen transfer-case I wonder how much the info would apply to later models?

[Photog]

One more question: My 1988 4Runner and my 2004 4Runner do not have a "N" position in transfercase. I was looking at a 2002 Tacoma, and it does have "N" on the T/C lever.

........................

With the vehicles that do have a neutral position in the T/C, is there a problem with flat-towing in that position?

Nobody knows the answer to this question?

Does the owners manual for these Tacoma's suggest they can be flat-towed?

[cydonia-jacc]

Does the owners manual for these Tacoma's suggest they can be flat-towed?[/QUOTE]

I don't think Toyota recommends flat towing any of their vehicles. :rolleyes:
I'm not sure about Ford but GM and Chrysler offer several vehicles that can be towed without modification.That is why you see so many Jeep Wranglers and Saturns behind motorhomes.

[Photog]

OK, I'm asking specificly about the previous generation of Tacomas, that have the "Neutral" position in the transfercase.

We will be getting a motorhome next year, and I want to have a trail vehicle that can be "flat-towed". I would prefer a Tacoma over a Jeep, as the view from a jeep is like driving from inside a cave (same as FJ Cruiser and Hummers). The windshield size and angle on the Tacoma allows a much better view of the world.

My second choice will be a Jeep Wrangler (poor view and all).

The key question is: can a Tacoma with the "neutral" position in the transfer case, be flat-towed, without modifying anything?

[ntsqd]

This doesn't answer the question above, but I finally remembered to take some pictures of the pump in the tailshaft housing of the mini-truck transfercase.

Of importance to note is the wide diameter between the seal and the speedo drive gear.
http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u196/ntsqd/host/IMG_0311.jpg

The speedo drive gear is the smaller one. The second 'gear' is actually a screw impeller that fits tightly in the above mentioned diameter. Oil from behind the speedo drive gears is pumped by the turning of the rear output flange. It is pumped forward within the transfer case up against the above noted seal.
Note the hole in the shaft between the shaft's sealing surface and the forward edge of the pump gear.
http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u196/ntsqd/host/IMG_0310.jpg

Oil is delivered to the region behind the pump by means of a trough that catches oil flung off the front drive gears.
The hole in the shaft intersects a hole drilled down the center of the shaft. This hole delivers oil to the bearing that pilots the range box's input and output shafts.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Aren't Tacoma's chain driven transfer cases? The U.S. built chain cases almost always have a pump that lubricates various internal parts. A consultation of an FSM might yield the answer.

[cydonia-jacc]

Have you searched the subject on RV.net? I know it's come up a few times. Search the "Dinghy Towing" section. I'm pretty sure you can't without a modification.

[Braz475]

I work at an RV upgrades and performance shop that deal a lot with setting up tow vehicles. I have access to Remco Mfg. application charts and this is what the list for the 95-08 tacomas

1995 - 2008 Toyota Tacoma 4wd Application Notes
Towable as is if vehicle has a Manual transmission and a Manual transfer case. If you have an Electronic transfer case you need a Drive Shaft Disconnect.

[HJ-45]

Motorhome magazine has a dighy towing guide for each model year. 2002 thru 2008 are on their website with earlier years available. The info in the guide comes from the owner's manual recommendations, so if it Toyota said not to tow 4 down, it wont be in the guide.
http://www.motorhomemagazine.com/dinghytowingguide/

FWIF, the last yota I towed behind my motorhome was 85 4Runner, 5spd in neutral, TC in neutral. Had no problems for many years.

Ultimately, Toyota always addresses 4down towing in the owner's manual. ie for my FJC it says not to do it even though I have a MT and a neutral position in the TC.

[Photog]

According to the Motor Home Magazine, the only Toyota truck or SUV that can be fla-towed is the RAV4.

But Remco says it is OK.Hmmmm.:smilies27

[flyingwil]

I looked it up in my Owners Manual, it states Dinghy Towing is a no-no. I forget the exact wording but any towing where the wheel roll was not recommended. The pictures showed flat beds or "normal" tow trucks with wheel dollys where the wheels would roll.

[Photog]

Not what I wanted to hear; but thanks anyway.:safari-rig: