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Blair '72
12-21-2011, 02:10 AM
I've been lurking on this site for a long time, but this is my first post...

A little over a year ago I bought a 4wd 2008 Tacoma Doublecab to serve as my daily driver and weekend expo/light wheeling duty. Never had a problem with it the first year, no vibes or major drivability issues. However, the stock rear springs have sagged flat and the rear bottoms out constantly on speed bumps and dips in the road. After considerable research I planned out my lift and decided on Bilstein 5100s all around, fronts set at 1.75 lift and a 1.5 single add a leaf in back.

The truck looked awesome after the lift and the rear stopped bottoming out even with 4 passengers and a load in back. However, the truck developed two very annoying problems. First, the front lift caused the dreaded front differential bearing vibration at 30-40 mph that goes away when 4wd is engaged. A diff drop didn't cure the vibration. It progressively got worse and worse over 3 months until i couldn't stand it and readjusted the front 5100s to .85 lift in the front. Now the vibration is barely noticeable, but still there. Definitely livable, but I miss the lifted look. Now it looks stock.

The second problem was the back AAL. After adding the AAL i developed a take off/drive off driveline shudder that was pretty bad. No combination of carrier bearing shims, flipping the carrier bearing, or rear axle degree shims would make it go away completely. Only by removing the AAL and going back to stock was I able to get rid of the shudder.

Now my truck is vibration free, but looks completely stock, rides at stock height, and bottoms out like crazy. Is the only cure for the front diff vibe to replace the CV and bearing? Is there some other rear lift that won't cause the driveline shudder (3 leaf AAL, block, OME/Deaver leaf pack?) I want to lift it 2 inches in the front and at least 1 in the rear, but I can't live with the vibrations. Any advice is appreciated.

Dave Bennett
12-21-2011, 06:36 AM
Strange symptoms but not unheard of.

I'd recommend Icon or OME. I'm running mostly Icon with Dakars in the back and have none of the issues you speak of. My front is set at about 3.5 too, two inches should be no problem.

DirectDrive
12-21-2011, 08:02 AM
You're unlucky with your front. You should be able to go to 3" with these trucks without issue. Sounds like your bearings, CV's may have been already worn and the lift aggravated them. I would repair the worn parts.
I would put the Bilsteins back at 1.75 after the repairs. That's not excessive, as long as you're satisfied with the ride. A better way to arrive at this height with the Bistein 5100 is to set the 5100 at 0.0 and use the Eibach 620# (ToyTec) spring instead of preloading the stock spring.

Your rear springs, I'm guessing are the stock 3 leaf packs (2 normal leaves and an overload leaf, 2+1). They sound like they're pretty worn. Your symptom sounds more like "axle wrap" than a driveline vibe.
I think it's best to replace these springs with new ones.
The off-the-shelf OME Dakar yields about 2-3/4" of lift over stock. $400 pr. plus shipping
Custom Alcan $263 ea. plus shipping (built to your requested ride height)

What is stock ride height and what is the best way to measure it ?

The best way to measure and compare to other Tacos is to measure from the center of the axle/hub to the top of the wheel well.
In this way, differences in tire diameters are taken out of play.
It's fair to say that a stock 2nd gen Taco with healthy springs will measure approximately 20" in the front and 22" in the back.

Good luck.

enzo
12-21-2011, 12:42 PM
I feel your pain! I had the rear leaf spring TSB done on my DCSB and developed a vibration between 57-65 mph and 1800 rpm. I lifted the truck to compensate for ARB bumper and winch using OME 885+90000 struts up front and OME Niro shocks out back and now the vibe is gone. Only problem now is I have a vibration between 30-40 mph, if I could describe the sound using words it would be like a wom-wom-wom sound. I can only hope I'm not destroying anything up under there. Thank god this isint my DD.

upcountry
12-21-2011, 02:36 PM
Blair:

I would read through this thread carefully and try what they suggest. It worked for me and many others (but may not work for all....gotta love, or hate, how each truck is unique):

http://www.tacomaworld.com/forum/2nd-gen-tacomas/153050-just-fixed-driveline-vibration-free.html

Another option is the Beefed Taco diff drop kit, which is WAY more substantial than the others - I was going to go this route but was able to fix it before I ordered this, I still may:

http://www.streetacos.com/Products.html

Regarding new springs, I would say look at Old Man Emu (OME), ICON, and FOX for the front, OME Dakars or All-Pro leaf packs for the rear. I just did the All-Pro expo leaf packs and I really like them, but I got around 3.5 inches of lift. I have OME 885s and nitrochargers with 14 MM top spacers on the front for just over 3" of lift. I too have the hum-hum-hum at aroun 30 MPH but i'll deal with it and I am religous about maintenance so will keep an ear on it, it comes and goes depending on how much wiehgt I have int he truck. I think it is the CV joints, but it could be as simple as the camber or toe on the alignment, even though my truck drives straight.

Regarding the driveline shudder in the rear from the AAL, well.....I used to have an AAL- mine was an AAL from Toytec that I added to the Factory TSB spring pack with OME nitrochargers. I had a driveline vibration at first, then I added the OME carrier bearing drop kit and it did not go away right away, but faded over time as the spring broke in and seated itself it went away. Then about 30K later I started to get a shudder at takeoff, I beleive this was axle wrap. It got bad and the AAL was starting to get dislodged from the TB spring pack so I pulled it off an put on some Allpro expo springs with the All-Pro U-Bolt flip kit. Could not be happier. They have an extra half leaf in them that prevents axle wrap. They drive smooth and I have no vibes - NOTE: immediately after install I did have a vibe, but after adding 120#s of sand to the bed of the truck and rotating the carrier bearing to drop it down slightly it went away. At first I had 4" of lift, and it has settled down to 3.5". See: http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/69515-Just-installed-AllPro-Expo-Leaf-Springs?highlight=

My take on the rear shudder is that the AAL kit, although a good design, could benefit from the addition of some of these it would help:

http://www.toyteclifts.com/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=58957&category_id=140&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=72

http://www.performance4trucks.com/Lift-Kits-Suspensions-and-Shocks/Superlift-Leaf-Spring-Clips.aspx?t_c=1&t_s=399&t_pt=4483&t_pl=102161

I have seen one version of these that allows you to tighten the front of the sping pack preventing axle wrap, but I bet this would impact articulation as it could prevent the springs from slip-ing along each other as the axle forces the arc to flatten.

Either way, I hope it works out for you!

Owyhee H
12-21-2011, 05:20 PM
The front diff vibe is very disapointing. I have OME 883's netting about 1.5" of front lift and I get the same vibe. The truck ony had 10k miles when I put the OME kit on and the vibe was there imediately. I cant imagine how Toyota hasnt taken care of this problem, a truck like these should be able to be lifted a little. I can predict that the new BAJA edition with a slight factory lift will have this problem. I am going to try and get my front diff replaced by Toyota but we will see what they say, I know others have had it done.

Hopefully there will be a solution to this problem soon but Im not holding my breath.

Blair '72
12-21-2011, 05:21 PM
Regarding the rear shudder, I tried adding OME carrrier bearing shims and that didn't help much. Best result was when I flipped the bearing and used the OME shims. That lessened the shudder to a great degree, but didn't solve the issue. Only thing that solved it completely was taking out the AAL. I do have the OEM 3 leaf pack and it is pretty much shot. The stock leaves are completely flat to looking somewhat arched upwards. The ride quality is terrible on bumpy roads and with passengers, but not having any shudder is something I am really enjoying.

As far as the front goes, I initially thought I could live with the vibration/noise, but a few weeks ago it started getting alot louder and alot worse. Lowering the bilsteins to .85 made it almost completely go away. I have seen on the other forums that a few people have replaced a bearing in the front differential and at least temporarily solved the problem. If I decide to lift it again I'll probably need to replace that bearing if the noise is still there.

Flagster
12-21-2011, 05:58 PM
Strange symptoms but not unheard of.

I'd recommend Icon or OME. I'm running mostly Icon with Dakars in the back and have none of the issues you speak of. My front is set at about 3.5 too, two inches should be no problem.

I'm ignorant when it comes to most things lift related but why would brand matter if you are lifting the same amount (<3in)...seems like the same geometry just different product???? Correct me if I am wrong...
I have an OME setup (no diff drop/spacers and no aftermarket UCAs).

DirectDrive
12-21-2011, 06:18 PM
I'm ignorant when it comes to most things lift related but why would brand matter if you are lifting the same amount (<3in)...seems like the same geometry just different product???? Correct me if I am wrong...
I have an OME setup (no diff drop/spacers and no aftermarket UCAs).
As far as the half shaft (CV) angles are concerned lift is lift.
The performance differences lie in the way you lift. Sounds like you have an OME spring lift, which is a very good way to lift.

Without aftermarket UCAs, it's possible that your caster adjustment is not within spec. Symptoms would be "wandering" and "bump-steer".
Bump-steer is when you hit an imperfection in the roadway (manhole cover for example), and you are tossed off course.

spacers < preload < spring

Blair '72
12-21-2011, 09:41 PM
I measured my ride height and with the front 5100s at .85" lift and the stock, worn out rear leafs, my rear is actually .25" lower than the front. I'd like to lift the rear about 1" to level the truck more, improve the ride, while also hopefully avoiding the shudder. Seems like my options are:

1. Progressive 3 leaf add a leaf from wheelers offroad. Will this cause shudder like the single AAL I just took off?

2. OME Dakar springs with either the 3rd leaf removed and/or removing one of the overloads. It seems like removing a leaf or two from this leaf pack would get me less lift and hopefully improve ride quality.

3. Deaver J66 10 pack. Lifts about 1-1.5" and is the most expensive option but looks like it should alleviate axle wrap issues.

Any thoughts?

DirectDrive
12-21-2011, 10:13 PM
I measured my ride height and with the front 5100s at .85" lift and the stock, worn out rear leafs, my rear is actually .25" lower than the front. I'd like to lift the rear about 1" to level the truck more, improve the ride, while also hopefully avoiding the shudder. Seems like my options are:

1. Progressive 3 leaf add a leaf from wheelers offroad. Will this cause shudder like the single AAL I just took off?
No, sounds like your main pack is too worn out and beyond help from an AAL solution.


2. OME Dakar springs with either the 3rd leaf removed and/or removing one of the overloads. It seems like removing a leaf or two from this leaf pack would get me less lift and hopefully improve ride quality.
This is possible. To lose height, I would be more tempted to remove both overloads, rather than tamper with the main pack.
Guessing, you would probably drop to 1-3/4" lift overall.


3. Deaver J66 10 pack. Lifts about 1-1.5" and is the most expensive option but looks like it should alleviate axle wrap issues.

Deaver "culture" if you will, is about thin, high leaf count packs that lend themselves to lift with maximum flex. They are not known for load bearing prowess.
For my own purposes, I would go with an Alcan.

keezer37
12-21-2011, 10:19 PM
Math is math. Your driveline doesn't care who's product you bought.

Here's some tutorials: http://pirate4x4.com/tech/billavista/PR-shaft/index2.html or http://www.4xshaft.com/driveline101.html. Or Google "driveshaft geometry".

The carrier spacer drop has to correspond with the amount of lift in the rear. You're better off buying a length of flat bar from Home Depot and making your own spacers. That way you can add 1/16th at a time until you get it as good as possible. At a point, you know you've gone over when you get a high speed shudder (about 60 mph).

I've got OE '05 pre-TSB springs with 1.75" lift in back and 2.25" lift up front. 110k on the truck and about 60k on the Wheeler's single AAL.
I think I got three spacers in there. And longer bolts. Make sure you've got threads sticking out on top or buy longer bolts.
http://i876.photobucket.com/albums/ab323/Yoderandhisbuggy/CarrierShims.jpg

Don't know what's up with your front end. I never touched mine. Never had an issue after the lift.

NikonRon
12-21-2011, 10:24 PM
I'm running the same setup as TacoDoc on an 09, I've got 12000 miles on it and have no issues at all. Ron

Blair '72
01-09-2012, 04:07 AM
Seems like there are quite a few people here with noisy front differentials after lifting. Here is a thread from another forum where a vendor is working on a replacement bushing for the front differ to quiet the vibration and noise:

http://www.tacomaworld.com/forum/2nd-gen-tacomas/152173-official-2nd-gen-4x4-front-differential-bearing-vibration-thread-4.html

I'm looking forward to seeking if this works as I having been having a lot of problems with the post lift vibrations and noise.

Blair

DirectDrive
01-09-2012, 08:52 PM
Seems like there are quite a few people here with noisy front differentials after lifting. Here is a thread from another forum where a vendor is working on a replacement bushing for the front differ to quiet the vibration and noise:

http://www.tacomaworld.com/forum/2nd-gen-tacomas/152173-official-2nd-gen-4x4-front-differential-bearing-vibration-thread-4.html

I'm looking forward to seeking if this works as I having been having a lot of problems with the post lift vibrations and noise.

Blair
I saw that. (East Coast Gear Supply)
It looks like a possible solution for those with front bearing noise.
Apparently ARB uses that bushing system as well.

Toycdn
01-10-2012, 01:00 AM
Mine (2007 Tacoma accesscab) just started making the humming noise about 5000 miles after. 1.75 bilstein 5100 lift. The humming disappears in 4wd and you can feel the play in the drivers cv shaft. My truck is out of warranty, could this cause additional damage if not fixed. Hopefully the bushing mod works out and is a relatively cheap fix. Can't believe Toyota produced such a ****ty built front diff.

DirectDrive
01-10-2012, 06:23 PM
....could this cause additional damage if not fixed ? Hopefully the bushing mod works out and is a relatively cheap fix. Can't believe Toyota produced such a ****ty built front diff.
I have not seen it reported where the needle bearing completely fails and falls apart :eek:

Most reports indicate that the lift is either lowered to suppress the noise or the bearing is changed out, only to start making noise again after a few thousand miles.
This bushing mod gives hope.

raftdude1
08-01-2014, 08:08 PM
I realize this is an older thread but since I was surfing around it today (looking to solve a different issue) I thought I'd throw a little info out about the ECGS bushing.

I have a 2013 Tacoma Double Cab and immediately upon buying it, I lifted it 3" (front) 1.5" back and within 2,000 miles developed the oscillating vibration from the front end...which would disappear when 4X4 was engaged. Needless to say that was super discouraging since I'd barely broken the thing in. I'm sure like everyone else, I took to the internet to try and diagnose it before taking it back to the dealership just so I'd be armed with the information if things got sideways with them. Fortunately (or unfortunately) I wasn't alone in this and the topic of the ECGS bushing came up several times. I debated whether to do it or let the dealership solve the problem for a couple of months. Took it to them and naturally they reported "operating normally". Within two blocks of driving away from the dealership....whir, whir, whir, whir.....and I was back to square one.

I talked with a fellow Tacoma owner (2011 Double Cab with 3" lift) here and he said he got the same thing and Toyota wound up replacing his entire front end. He also said his tech support guy at Toyota said they knew about the issue and were "working on it". As of July 2014 there are no TSB on it that I know of.

That said I talked to the guys here in Golden at Slee Offroad, told them what was happening and they quickly mentioned the ECGS bushing (as well as another bushing option). I decided to roll the dice and just have the driver's side diff bearing removed and the bushing installed to see what would happen. Happy to report that 4,800 miles later I haven't had one vibe since. I've read a couple of blogs from people who have also done it and are reporting well over 50,000 on the bushing with no problems. One guy put 40,000 miles on teh bushing, removed it to test for degredation and wear and reported little to none. The bushing itself is about $40-$50. I understand it's not that difficult to replace yourself but I opted for Slee to do mine and of course they did a fabulous job.

Anyhow, thought I'd throw this out there in case there were others like me who happen upon this thread and might use the information. Now off to solve CV angle issues.

toyrunner95
08-03-2014, 09:33 AM
alot of the vibration issues are a combination of things. it actually has to do with harmonics. if you lift your truck and put different tires on it the combined changes throw the harmonics out of whack. the wom wom wom or hum hum hum is usually due to tire tread and extra weight being thrown around at certain speeds thus causing your ear drums to vibrate making your brain think something is wrong.

now with that being said, a vibration is caused by the same centrifugal force but with a definite lack of tolerance, like a worn bearing, bad wheel weight, mis weighted drive line, anything that spins is probably going to cause this issue.

as for rear springs, you may have an axle wrap issue. like your bushings are worn in the eyes. my truck has no lift and 24k on the clock and the clutch seems like it has a bad friction plate. i dunno. check the easy stuff first then step it up.

bat
08-03-2014, 11:52 PM
I put the OME kit on and the vibe was there imediately To me the bearing problem is not something that comes up because you put a lift on the truck. Over time it may cause a problem but I bet some problems are driveline issues.

4wd and you can feel the play in the drivers cv shaft. They all have play regardless if the bearing is bad crawl under a new truck and it will be the same.

A lift is a lift and not cranking the truck up will save you some headaches getting a proper alignment, fixing driveline angles and just the tires can be problems.
I have had my front diff replaced under warranty and the truck was lifted and all do dads on it .:)

MTaco
08-04-2014, 11:54 PM
I realize this is an older thread but since I was surfing around it today (looking to solve a different issue) I thought I'd throw a little info out about the ECGS bushing.

I have a 2013 Tacoma Double Cab and immediately upon buying it, I lifted it 3" (front) 1.5" back and within 2,000 miles developed the oscillating vibration from the front end...which would disappear when 4X4 was engaged. Needless to say that was super discouraging since I'd barely broken the thing in. I'm sure like everyone else, I took to the internet to try and diagnose it before taking it back to the dealership just so I'd be armed with the information if things got sideways with them. Fortunately (or unfortunately) I wasn't alone in this and the topic of the ECGS bushing came up several times. I debated whether to do it or let the dealership solve the problem for a couple of months. Took it to them and naturally they reported "operating normally". Within two blocks of driving away from the dealership....whir, whir, whir, whir.....and I was back to square one.

I talked with a fellow Tacoma owner (2011 Double Cab with 3" lift) here and he said he got the same thing and Toyota wound up replacing his entire front end. He also said his tech support guy at Toyota said they knew about the issue and were "working on it". As of July 2014 there are no TSB on it that I know of.

That said I talked to the guys here in Golden at Slee Offroad, told them what was happening and they quickly mentioned the ECGS bushing (as well as another bushing option). I decided to roll the dice and just have the driver's side diff bearing removed and the bushing installed to see what would happen. Happy to report that 4,800 miles later I haven't had one vibe since. I've read a couple of blogs from people who have also done it and are reporting well over 50,000 on the bushing with no problems. One guy put 40,000 miles on teh bushing, removed it to test for degredation and wear and reported little to none. The bushing itself is about $40-$50. I understand it's not that difficult to replace yourself but I opted for Slee to do mine and of course they did a fabulous job.

Anyhow, thought I'd throw this out there in case there were others like me who happen upon this thread and might use the information. Now off to solve CV angle issues.

This is all good to hear. I too was an unlucky one who had the same vibration in the front immediately after lifting it. I got lucky and Toyota replaced the front diff under warranty and the vibe went away and never came back.

I upgraded to 4.56 gears a few months ago and opted for the bushing to be installed from ECGS when they built the front clamshell and it is still smooth as ever with about 2,500 miles on the new gears. So I am another happy ECGS customer and would recommend them to anyone.