PDA

View Full Version : Tacoma Regear or Supercharge?



mvbeggs
01-23-2012, 02:38 AM
I am a new owner of a 2012 Tacoma. As some of you may know I am building the Tacoma as an overlanding rig. After discussing gearing in some other threads gearing-and-255-85-tire (http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/72001-gearing-and-255-85-tires/page2) several Tacoma owners have elected to gear 4.56 or 4.88. This gearing gets the 4.0L in the 2500-2700rpm range,at 75mph, where the 4.0L develops about 175-190 ft lbs of torque. This seems to be the sweet spot for the 4.0L.

I like to run 85mph across the flatlands of Kansas and Nebraska which at 4.56, or 4.88 gearig, puts my engine speed above my self imposed limit of 2600rpm.

I found a dyno curve of a TRD supercharged 4.0L. The Dyno curves appear to turn the supercharged 4.0L into a low end torque machine. Essentially a supercharged 4.0L develops 270 ft lbs of torque at 2000 rpm. (see curves below)

My question, what is the opinion regarding supercharging instead of regearing? Could I have the quiet, low reving, economies during flatland highway travel at 85mph while kicking in the supercharger when the torque and power is need to climb grades, at altitude, while towing the Chaser?

I'd also like to hear the experiences of TRD supercharger users regarding maintenance and reliability of the supercharger.

Here are the dyno cuves I found on TacomaWorld.com and CustomTacos.com

8295482953

RPM curves of various gearing options:

cruiseroutfit
01-23-2012, 06:29 AM
Another great thread on the subject:
http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/63972-Supercharger-or-regear?

Its obviously aimed at the 1st generation Tacoma's but the logic is the same, my today would be identical to those I posted last summer. Still happy as a clam with my TRD SC and no reason to re-gear.

mvbeggs
01-23-2012, 02:05 PM
Another great thread on the subject:
http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/63972-Supercharger-or-regear?

Its obviously aimed at the 1st generation Tacoma's but the logic is the same, my today would be identical to those I posted last summer. Still happy as a clam with my TRD SC and no reason to re-gear.

Thanks for the reply and the link. I read the thread. Many say "re-gear" and don't give much reasoning behind their decision. (Cruiseroutfit excepted.) I was hoping for a little more technically backed debate.

Folks seem to be regearing to 4.88 to put the engine in the torque range of 175-190 ft-lb range (2400-2700rpm) at 70-75mph. If this is true, why is the supercharger being dismissed when it acheives the same torque at 1700-1800rpm? Cost, maintenance issues, need lower gearing on the trail, gears are easier to install, etc.?

My Tacoma is an overland type build and DD. My guess is that 80% of the time will be spent on highways, roads and unmaintained roads. 20% of the time will be spent on trails, with only a small portion of that on truly technical terrain.

WHY isn't a supercharged engine that has the ability to produce tons of low end torque, as needed, desired over regearing?

Loads, speed, and power applied being equal, does a supercharged engine running at 2,200 rpm burn less fuel than a normally aspirated engine running at 2,700 rpm? Or is it simply, that for an engine to move a particular load, X, requires Y amount of fuel to be burned, regardless of engine rpm?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against regearing. (after all I have hemi in the Jeep and it's geared 5.13) I'm simply in the process of trying to figure out what is best for me, doing my due diligence, looking at all my options, and thinking out the build before I get too far down this path.

Thanks for any light you can shed on the subject.

downhill
01-23-2012, 04:07 PM
Well, for one thing the torque multiplication on a gear swap happens in the rear diff so the transmission and T-case are spared the extra stress. With the SC, the torque boost is coming at the engine, everything behind it is stressed. The engine itself is stressed. I can't say how much of a real world problem that is with the stock drivetrain. I would guess the 6 spd would handle it better. It is certain to need more maintenance and attention. If you are just using it for cruising, with common sense, it may be a nonissue. The problem really is your requirement for 85 mph and 2,600 RPM with a 4 liter engine, on a rig that still has to be trail capable. Too many divergent variables for calculus. You may need to resort to quantum physics (or maybe metaphysics LOL).

There is another possibilty that might be worth checking into, and that is an add on overdrive. I ran one on another rig for many years without issues. The one I had was a Gear Vendor OD. I had 5.36 gears in that rig and could easiy do 70 on the hiway. I have no idea whetter there are any applications for the 05+ taco.

NM-Frontier
01-23-2012, 04:57 PM
For an overland rig I want to keep the drive train as reliable as possible. Re-gearing the diffs would effect the total stock configuration of the drive train the least so I would go that rout.Seems like adding more stuff means you have added more things that can maybe fail, witch would require you to need to bring more spare parts(more wight).How easy is it to find belts and pulleys for these? Like you asked above I would question how the SC would effect you fuel consumption. After all the idea is to travel long distances to see and explore cool stuff, these trucks don't have the largest range already so taking even more away means bringing more fuel(more weight). If I had to choose between 70mph and the possible loss of reliability and range with the SC to run 85mph, I would just drive slower overall it wont take that much longer to get there.
On the other side the TRD SC is Toyota. And if it were installed on a new truck I would hope that it would carry the same reliability as the rest of the truck. (That is why you got a Toyota right?) I could see that if driven with a soft foot that the extra fuel needed to keep up with the SC could be kept to a minimum.

All in all the added power is great if you can still keep the reliability and range. But if you compromise those on a overland rig then no amount of added power is worth it.

cruiseroutfit
01-23-2012, 05:22 PM
...On the other side the TRD SC is Toyota. And if it were installed on a new truck I would hope that it would carry the same reliability as the rest of the...

That is kinda where my thoughts lie on the system, I've seen far more issues with aftermarket r&P setups (most often install error) than I have with TRD SC's, in fact I can't really think of an instance where the modern TRD SC's have left anyone stranded. The belts are available at any Toyota dealer and I suppose you could match it up easy enough aftermarket, I carry a spare behind my seat along with the other belts. Other than that there are no real maintenance issues to speak of. Re-do the oil ~120k, beyond that?

Likewise a good gear install can be equally as trouble & maintenance free.

I think it really comes down to a budget and the intended returns. The SC isn't going to give you the low speed crawl abilities off-road particularly in 4-low, and the gears are not going to get you the top end up a canyon :D

mvbeggs
01-23-2012, 08:55 PM
Downhill, glad to see you got in on this!

Lots of good points here. As many of you have pointed out, mechanical reliability is #1.

Like cruiseroutfit mentioned, I also assumed the TRD SC is a Toyota factory engineered and integrated product for the Tacoma. Toyota's extension of the factory warranty for a "dealer" installed SC tended to reinforce that assumption.

Replacement belts really don't concern me as I carry spares anyway. I could lump a pulley into the spare parts bin as well.

Driving slower on the highway isn't a problem when it's just me and the wife. The problem arises when I'm traveling with others that can run 85 down the highway. I don't like to be the slow wagon in the wagon train. :eek:

The near vertical torque curve on the TRD SC dyno chart really caught my attention. (i.e. 85% of the total torque made before 2000 rpm) :drool: I started thinking the SC might be an answer to my 15-16mpg, 2600rpm/85mph highway cruise speed, trail capable, vehicle. (withouth having to resort to downhill's suggested quantum physics solution. :) ) If the drivetrain is up to the task, it sure would be nice to be able to fly down the highway < 2600 rpm.

I'm not worried about not having the low speed crawl, in 4LO, afforded by lowering the gearing. I don't think this rig will see that much technical terrain. That's what the Jeep is for. The Tacoma will be used more for hunting type trips. I do need the Tacoma to be able to run high altitude passes pulling the Chaser.

Cruiseoutfit, what is your setup? (i.e. vehicle, tires, armor, gearing, etc.) What kind of gas mileage are you getting?

Thanks for everyon's input.

Overlandexpeditionspecial
01-23-2012, 09:48 PM
In an Apples to Oranges example, I have a local Jeep Rubicon that I look after from time to time, they installed a SC without regearing, then went about adding bumpers, taller tires, winches and every other gizmo they could find. Then they wondered why it was sluggish on the highway, got lousy gas mileage and kept throwing computer codes even with a programmer.

Your SC would be better tuned to your Tacoma so maintenance and compatibility would not be a problem, but unless you know and weight everything you will possibly add to the truck in the future (plus the additional wind drag), your projections of RPM and speeds and fuel mileage are going to be shortsighted. As mentioned the stress on the rest of your drivetrain is going to become compounded with the growing need for RPMs of the SC, you will begin to have to really weight any additions to the truck versus your goals.

The gears would put less stress on fewer drivetrain parts, and if you go to an even lower ratio like the 4.88s then you could always add a taller tire or (kind of more weight) to bring you down to the numbers you are trying to hit, so almost an excuse to add more stuff:)

Utah KJ
01-23-2012, 11:29 PM
I think you'd have to burn high-octane fuel with the SC. I'm a fan of re-gearing. My previous rig was a turbo diesel and I always locked in the speed limit, wagon train be damned.

trump
01-24-2012, 02:40 AM
Or is it simply, that for an engine to move a particular load, X, requires Y amount of fuel to be burned, regardless of engine rpm?

This is what I would consider the more accurate statement... There's no such thing as free power. You might be turning more rpm's with lower gearing, but you're not going to need as much pedal. That said, the supercharger does add good low-end torque. Sorry for not helping.:p

NothingClever
01-24-2012, 03:05 AM
I went with the re-gear for a few reasons:

1) In my research for the Toyota SC I saw a ton of tweaking notes in the TTORA forum which led me to believe that if I didn't add $1,500 more in aftermarket components (7th injector / URD) that I would be one of the lucky few if my SC worked properly. This turned me off from going that route.

2) The re-gear was much cheaper.

3) The re-gear kept the engine completely stock and the drivetrain only slightly modified.

Now, that much said, if I had bumped into Kurt before I re-geared my truck I might have a SC under the hood. His advice has always risen to the top here in the forums so if he says, "It's good." I'm inclined to chase that solution.

For your stated needs (85mph), I think you SHOULD go with a SC. Re-gearing will definitely take away from your top end when you're chasing your friends.

As for me, I'm happy with the Toyota's 4.88s. I had mine installed by a reputable shop so I'm not worried about failure. 70mph top speed (well, top comfortable speed) can get old on the interstate but we don't try to do more than 300 miles in a day so it's not that big of a deal. Maybe if I change tires I'll bump up in my 'top speed' but the decreased gas mileage will probably make it a diminishing return.

Best of luck....let us know how you make out with the decision and install.

downhill
01-24-2012, 03:20 AM
Well, after some thought I would have to say that the problem needs to be reframed. SC or final gearing is not the right the choice given the requirements. I don't think that the regear should even be considered. Instead I would recommend the most radical solution yet: leave it stock. I spent some time on the Grimm Jeeper calculator and guess what? There are gear options to keep you in the power band of the stock engine at both 65 and 85 with either the auto or the 6spd (assuming 255/85-16 tires). The only hole occurs with the auto when the speed drops to 55. The drop to 3rd gear is too drastic to use at all, and staying in 4th leaves you at 2000rpm which is flat.

Before I swapped gears I pulled my trailer from MN to OR. It weighed around 2200 at that time, and I did 80 all the way across North Dakota and into Montana with no trouble at all. That was with 32" tires though, not 33.

The only problems with staying stock are that acceleration with the trailer in tow will be poor, and if you have the auto that 55mph hole will be a major PITA. That is perhaps where the question of the SC legitimately comes in. If you have the 6spd, you won't have the 55mph hole because you have 4th, 5th and 6th as usable gears.

So here is what I would do. Forget the diff gears. Try the truck stock and see if the performance works for you. If you have the auto, you will be screwed though because you really need the option of 55 on hills, and in some areas like CA, you can't exceed 55 anyway. The SC would solve that, and the acceleration as well if you see the need. The only remaining question then is the trail performance of the stock gears. That can be more than fixed by adding a crawl box. Actually, a twin stick with a crawl box would be the ultimate.

Remember this. Once you hit the steep mountain grades you MUST slow down. If you get the SC and stand on it up a steep grade with the trailer in tow you will weld that rear diff. This is no BS. The one positive aspect here is that the 3.73 gears should run cooler than a lower gear set. They are the best choice with the SC, but you need to keep an eye on that till you understand how it works. You can use a simple infrared thermometer, but you need to get the number quickly because the temp drops fast once you stop.

Ultimate rocket taco = stock gears + SC + crawl box + twin stick. Just use the SC sanely to keep it all in one piece. Gas mileage will be what you make it. That SC doesn't run on air alone. You push 30% more air down that intake and you will need 30% more gas to make it go boom.

One last comment. I don't buy the idea that complexity reduces reliability. A stock truck relies on thousands of parts to keep running, and somehow they do. Adding 1/10% more parts isn't going to suddenly make you anymore fragile. The things that fail are the little things that people neglect. Fan belts, hoses, U-joints,valve cores, etc. Hell look at TACODOC. A great reliable truck and he's dealing with a frigging glovebox failure! Buy good parts, install them with diligence, and travel with confidence.

NothingClever
01-24-2012, 03:25 AM
Dang....look at the brain on downhiller. That's some good homework.

TangoBlue
01-24-2012, 03:46 AM
...look at TACODOC. A great reliable truck and he's dealing with a frigging glovebox failure!

Yeah - I can't wait to see the thread on that. :rolleyes:

All for lack of performing periodic glovebox door latch maintenance... tsk, tsk.

Oh - and all that other stuff before you mentioned - well said/good gouge!

Stick Figure
01-24-2012, 04:06 AM
Couple comments....

Never confuse TRD "engineering" with Toyota engineering. TRD parts are very often rebranded products from another company. I'm not sure who actually designed and manufactured the supercharger kit in question, but I highly doubt it has the same level of engineering that the original truck did. That's not to say it is bad or that you will have problems, just don't have that same blind faith that you can have in most Toyota products.

The other thing to remember is that the supercharger uses a good amount of power to make HP. The added stress on the internals of the engine is greater than just the gain you see at the back of the crank.

As far as the original question, its a tough call and I don't have any first hand experience with that engine or vehicle to give any solid been there done that type advice.

trump
01-24-2012, 04:18 AM
I'm not sure who actually designed and manufactured the supercharger kit in question

Eaton

Trail100
01-24-2012, 04:26 AM
So, just another thought .. the last I heard some '12 Tacomas aren't able to be supercharged because the ecu update isn't available. I'm sure it'll be sorted out but may be a temporary deal breaker for those voting SC.

downhill
01-24-2012, 04:30 AM
Yeah - I can't wait to see the thread on that. :rolleyes:

All for lack of performing periodic glovebox door latch maintenance... tsk, tsk.

Oh - and all that other stuff before you mentioned - well said/good gouge!

LOL, yeah well, his wasn't for lack of maintenance. In fact, his problem was doing the maintenance. (sorry) No gouge intended, just making the point that it's usually the little stuff that gets you.

cruiseroutfit
01-24-2012, 04:37 AM
Couple comments....

Never confuse TRD "engineering" with Toyota engineering. TRD parts are very often rebranded products from another company. I'm not sure who actually designed and manufactured the supercharger kit in question, but I highly doubt it has the same level of engineering that the original truck did.

All subjective but it is Toyota's TRD engineers that design/spec the products. I've had the opportunity to meet a handful of the TRD engineers and I was extremely impressed. They go through a fairly substantial design process and as I understand it the Toyota mothership in Japan pretty much has to give them the nod on all their designs. There were by all means some SC issues with the first generation offerings on Tacomas and others but they have really refined the current generations.


So, just another thought .. the last I heard some '12 Tacomas aren't able to be supercharged because the ecu update isn't available. I'm sure it'll be sorted out but may be a temporary deal breaker for those voting SC.

Interesting, I had not heard that but I am not surprised as this has been the issue with other minor change offerings.



Great thread guys, again I don't want to come across as 'SC or no way' but I have in fact been 100% happy with my setup and sidelined the re-gear project as I just didn't see any benefit and borderline saw drawbacks such as losses at top end.

TangoBlue
01-24-2012, 04:54 AM
LOL, yeah well, his wasn't for lack of maintenance. In fact, his problem was doing the maintenance. (sorry) No gouge intended, just making the point that it's usually the little stuff that gets you.

Yeah, I know, but if you don't tease Dave he feels ignored. He's got the shipfitters disease bad...

downhill
01-24-2012, 04:57 AM
Question for you Kurt,
I find the offroad manners of the stock 4.0 very forgiving. Good even power flow and fairly easy to control the throttle over rough terrain. Does the SC make trail work more touchy? Your thoughts?

cruiseroutfit
01-24-2012, 05:10 AM
Question for you Kurt,
I find the offroad manners of the stock 4.0 very forgiving. Good even power flow and fairly easy to control the throttle over rough terrain. Does the SC make trail work more touchy? Your thoughts?

No, not that I have noticed anyways. I had a very similar platform Tacoma albeit manual not automatic, before my current '04 so it difficult to compare between the two tranny variations. However I really can't say I have any complaints about throttle control on or off-road. The SC's engagement is predictable and steady and is very unnoticable at the lower RPM's. Ive driven a handful of 4.0 SC'd setups but honestly have zero off-road seat time in any of them so I can't comment how it relates to my 3.4.

downhill
01-24-2012, 05:47 AM
No, not that I have noticed anyways. I had a very similar platform Tacoma albeit manual not automatic, before my current '04 so it difficult to compare between the two tranny variations. However I really can't say I have any complaints about throttle control on or off-road. The SC's engagement is predictable and steady and is very unnoticable at the lower RPM's. Ive driven a handful of 4.0 SC'd setups but honestly have zero off-road seat time in any of them so I can't comment how it relates to my 3.4.

Thanks, I have a manual transmission as well. I wasn't sure if you had a 3.4 or 4.0. It's all good data. I'm curious to see what MV decides.

turboale
01-24-2012, 06:22 AM
For what it's worth, my 3.4l has been sc'd for over 130k without any issue. (only driver error ;-)) The sc is very predictable off road because it's belt driven, though being used to turbos anything will feel predictable. One major thing that hasn't been mentioned about the sc is that you will have to run premium.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk

mvbeggs
01-24-2012, 03:37 PM
Dang....look at the brain on downhiller. That's some good homework.

Yeah, I know. That's why I was glad to see Downhill pick up on this thread. :)



...I would recommend the most radical solution yet: leave it stock. I spent some time on the Grimm Jeeper calculator and guess what? There are gear options to keep you in the power band of the stock engine at both 65 and 85 with either the auto or the 6spd (assuming 255/85-16 tires). The only hole occurs with the auto when the speed drops to 55. The drop to 3rd gear is too drastic to use at all, and staying in 4th leaves you at 2000rpm which is flat. ....

83182

Looking at the engine speeds in OD, looks like the Tacoma would be pretty anemic until about 75. My guess is there would be a lot of shifting into 4th on any kind of grade below 75. The SC might add enough power to keep the tranny in OD in the 60-70mph range, but 1629 rpms at 60mph seems too low to me. I'm not sure what the ramifications are for the engine running, at load, for extended times at low rpms. With this gearing, I'd bet the transmission spends most of it's time in 4th until you get above 70mph.
(NOTE: above calcs used a 33" tire size, I may have to run smaller tires with the stock gearing)


...Before I swapped gears I pulled my trailer from MN to OR. It weighed around 2200 at that time, and I did 80 all the way across North Dakota and into Montana with no trouble at all. That was with 32" tires though, not 33.....

I think guys with the manual can get away with this because the manual gears the truck quite a bit lower. I believe the manual bumps engine speeds 200-300 rpm above the auto's at highway speeds.


...The only problems with staying stock are that acceleration with the trailer in tow will be poor, and if you have the auto that 55mph hole will be a major PITA. That is perhaps where the question of the SC legitimately comes in. If you have the 6spd, you won't have the 55mph hole because you have 4th, 5th and 6th as usable gears.....

I agree, I think you're dead on here.


...So here is what I would do. Forget the diff gears. Try the truck stock and see if the performance works for you. If you have the auto, you will be screwed though because you really need the option of 55 on hills, and in some areas like CA, you can't exceed 55 anyway. The SC would solve that, and the acceleration as well if you see the need.....

Agree to a point. Is it hard on the engine to run below 2000rpm under load for extended periods?

Agreed, stock is a good point to start the evaluation. I am in no rush on this build. I have no trips planned that requires the Tacoma to be built a particular way by a certain date. Slow, thoughtful and deliberate is going to be the motto for this build. Not my usual MO. :)


... The only remaining question then is the trail performance of the stock gears. That can be more than fixed by adding a crawl box. Actually, a twin stick with a crawl box would be the ultimate....

I haven't looked into crawl boxes. Who makes them and what is the multiplier? I've read a little about the twin stick. What's the advantage in a Tacoma?


...Remember this. Once you hit the steep mountain grades you MUST slow down. If you get the SC and stand on it up a steep grade with the trailer in tow you will weld that rear diff. This is no BS. The one positive aspect here is that the 3.73 gears should run cooler than a lower gear set. They are the best choice with the SC, but you need to keep an eye on that till you understand how it works. You can use a simple infrared thermometer, but you need to get the number quickly because the temp drops fast once you stop.....

I liked your idea of putting a temp sensor in the rear diff. (from another thread) Where did you mount the gauge? Seems like you recomended keeping diff fluid temps below 200..


...Ultimate rocket taco = stock gears + SC + crawl box + twin stick. Just use the SC sanely to keep it all in one piece. Gas mileage will be what you make it. That SC doesn't run on air alone. You push 30% more air down that intake and you will need 30% more gas to make it go boom....

"Rocket Taco", I like that. I might steal that idea from you too. :D

Great information from everyone. Thanks for the help and keep 'em coming.

mvbeggs
01-24-2012, 03:52 PM
I went with the re-gear for a few reasons:

1For your stated needs (85mph), I think you SHOULD go with a SC. Re-gearing will definitely take away from your top end when you're chasing your friends.

As for me, I'm happy with the Toyota's 4.88s. I had mine installed by a reputable shop so I'm not worried about failure. 70mph top speed (well, top comfortable speed) can get old on the interstate but we don't try to do more than 300 miles in a day so it's not that big of a deal. Maybe if I change tires I'll bump up in my 'top speed' but the decreased gas mileage will probably make it a diminishing return.

Best of luck....let us know how you make out with the decision and install.

I came to the same conclusion on the 4.88's, not going to be real comfortable at hghway speeds for 6 hours. Gas mileage is also a factor...looking for a blend of usable power with acceptable gas mileage. Maybe "flux capacitor" is the answer? :D

Thanks. I'll throw up a build thread when I get started. Tonneau cover is on the way. Planning on adding a Supertop from Bestop that will work without removing the tonneau cover. (going light in lieu of the fiberglass topper solution)

mvbeggs
01-24-2012, 03:55 PM
Couple comments....

The other thing to remember is that the supercharger uses a good amount of power to make HP. The added stress on the internals of the engine is greater than just the gain you see at the back of the crank....

That has also been on my mind. My hope is that the engineers have evaluated the additional stress on the engine internals and have determined they are up to the task. I believe the boost of the supercharger has been held down in an attempt to NOT blow anything up.

mvbeggs
01-24-2012, 03:59 PM
I think you'd have to burn high-octane fuel with the SC. .

I wasn't aware of that. More details to check out. Thanks


My previous rig was a turbo diesel and I always locked in the speed limit, wagon train be damned.

I like ur attitude. :ar15:
:)

cruiseroutfit
01-24-2012, 04:14 PM
I wasn't aware of that. More details to check out.

Tis true, premium fuels are in fact recommended/required. I can tell you I've been forced to run mid-grade as result of being in a lonely Central NV gas station that had nothing other to offer and I can't say I noticed a difference however it was mixed with a half tank of premium. Come to think of it my wife accidentally topped off a tank with regular grade once too but I added a bottle of octane boost to be on the safe side. Surely a factor that needs to be considered.

downhill
01-24-2012, 04:32 PM
MVbeggs,
All the points you brought up are good ones. With my vehicles it is always a struggle to balance these factors when the top speed cruise requirement is 65. At 85 something has to give a little, but it's not too bad. You will have to use the gears and lock the tranny out of OD until 70 or so unless you are on flat ground. You will be in 4th gear allot in the mountains. Nothing wrong with that. One gear is as good as another as long as the engine RPM is right. You will have to manage all this, but you can.

As far as the effects of running boost at lower RPM, refer to my first post. That's what I'm talking about with respect to where the torque multiplication occurs. The drivetrain WILL be running under more stress. I don't think it will be too bad since at 55 you will still be doing 2085 RPM. I would not allow the auto to slip me down below 2000 at cruise. I'm not worried about outright failure at all, just shortened engine life. How much is impossible to say. Maybe 10%? I really don't know, and it depends on so many factors like the maintenance it gets and the way you drive. Bear in mind that I climb allot of grades, so that is where my head is at.

Inchworm and Marlin make crawlers, but I'm not sure about the ratios. You'll need to contact them. This May I'm going down to visit Wyatt at RST and get a twin stick FJ case. For towing it is a big benefit. It allows low range in 2 wd which you will use all the time to back up and make careful manuevers. Of course in an auto you can manage things better because you have the torque converter. I either have to slip the clutch or drive in reverse way too fast. I don't know what Toyota was thinking with the reverse gear in these manuals. It should be 1/2 what it is. Aside from all that, I hate electric gear engagement. I want levers. I'll still have ADD until someone gets a manual hub kit built, but I'll eliminate as many solenoids as possible. It's as much a personal quirk as anything. It's all pretty reliable.

I mounted my gauge on the dash near the pillar. I want it where I can see it. The probe is threaded into the diff housing. You would have to pull the 3rd to do the work right. Clearances in there are tight. If you decide to do it, we can email each other and I can take some pics and measurements to show you the location. That's why I suggested a hand held infrared unit. It's not nearly as good, but a whole lot easier and better than nothing.

Bottom line is, it's doable. This is not a truck that you will toss the keys to a kid and say "go have fun". Managing all this will require a competent driver. Fullfilling all these divergent requirements is asking allot, so some added stress will be there. On the other hand, using our rigs for expo use is also an added stress. It's the price of performance.

downhill
01-24-2012, 04:38 PM
Tis true, premium fuels are in fact recommended/required. I can tell you I've been forced to run mid-grade as result of being in a lonely Central NV gas station that had nothing other to offer and I can't say I noticed a difference however it was mixed with a half tank of premium. Come to think of it my wife accidentally topped off a tank with regular grade once too but I added a bottle of octane boost to be on the safe side. Surely a factor that needs to be considered.

Yes, this is true! The 4.0 should be run on premium anyway though. It will run on regular, but the power output is dropped because the ecu retards the timing with lower octane fuels. The SC MUST have premium, and yeah that can be an issue in some backwater places. As Kurt said, you will need to carry booster just in case.

downhill
01-24-2012, 05:56 PM
My suggestions have been predicated on the idea that I shouldn't tell you what your priorities should be. Here's what I really think though. The easy answer is to regear and slow down. That's pretty much what all the rest of us have done, so you'll be in good company. The problem seems to be with keeping pace with your buddies. I can understand that. On the other hand, if my buddies weren't willing to slow down to be with me, then why should I speed up to be with them? I would just say "see ya". You're looking at spending a pile of money to hold up your end, when all they have to do is back off the gas. Just sayin ............... :sombrero:

Another approach which makes as much sense as anything we've discussed is to pick up the tab for all the beverages and food along the way and run 65. How much you want to bet that you get voted in as Wagonmaster? You'll have friends along that you have never even met! For the price of all the work described, you'll never end up on the wrong side of this deal. Just sayin .............. :sombrero:

mvbeggs
01-25-2012, 01:17 AM
Tis true, premium fuels are in fact recommended/required. I can tell you I've been forced to run mid-grade as result of being in a lonely Central NV gas station that had nothing other to offer and I can't say I noticed a difference however it was mixed with a half tank of premium. Come to think of it my wife accidentally topped off a tank with regular grade once too but I added a bottle of octane boost to be on the safe side. Surely a factor that needs to be considered.

Thanks for the clarification.


...At 85 something has to give a little, but it's not too bad. You will have to use the gears and lock the tranny out of OD until 70 or so unless you are on flat ground. You will be in 4th gear allot in the mountains. Nothing wrong with that.... You will have to manage all this, but you can....

Earlier today, I was thinking the same thing regarding locking out the OD. I think that is a workable solution.


...Inchworm and Marlin make crawlers, but I'm not sure about the ratios....

Thaks for the lead. I'll check them out.


...This May I'm going down to visit Wyatt at RST and get a twin stick FJ case. For towing it is a big benefit. It allows low range in 2 wd which you will use all the time to back up and make careful manuevers. Of course in an auto you can manage things better because you have the torque converter. I either have to slip the clutch or drive in reverse way too fast. I don't know what Toyota was thinking with the reverse gear in these manuals. It should be 1/2 what it is. Aside from all that, I hate electric gear engagement. I want levers. I'll still have ADD until someone gets a manual hub kit built, but I'll eliminate as many solenoids as possible. It's as much a personal quirk as anything.

I know what you mean, I prefer levers as well. Must be a Jeep type thing. :)
I also prefer troubleshooting a mechanical linkage than some electric gizmo. I tend to let all the smoke out of those electrical things...they never seem to work after that. :)



... The (rear diff temp) probe is threaded into the diff housing. You would have to pull the 3rd to do the work right. Clearances in there are tight. If you decide to do it, we can email each other and I can take some pics and measurements to show you the location....

You must have done this work when you regeared or added the locker. Thanks for the offer. I'll definitely shoot you an email when I get to that point.



...Bottom line is, it's doable. This is not a truck that you will toss the keys to a kid and say "go have fun". Managing all this will require a competent driver. Fullfilling all these divergent requirements is asking allot, so some added stress will be there. On the other hand, using our rigs for expo use is also an added stress. It's the price of performance.

Agreed.


My suggestions have been predicated on the idea that I shouldn't tell you what your priorities should be. Here's what I really think though. The easy answer is to regear and slow down. That's pretty much what all the rest of us have done, so you'll be in good company. The problem seems to be with keeping pace with your buddies. I can understand that. On the other hand, if my buddies weren't willing to slow down to be with me, then why should I speed up to be with them? I would just say "see ya". You're looking at spending a pile of money to hold up your end, when all they have to do is back off the gas. Just sayin ............... :sombrero:

Everyone is very understanding when we're traveling down the highway. I think it's mostly because they know once we get off road, they're the ones struggling to keep up. Sometimes it pays to be THE guy with THE winch, recovery gear, and full set of tools. :Mechanic:


...Another approach which makes as much sense as anything we've discussed is to pick up the tab for all the beverages and food along the way and run 65. How much you want to bet that you get voted in as Wagonmaster? You'll have friends along that you have never even met! For the price of all the work described, you'll never end up on the wrong side of this deal.

Apparently you haven't seen my crew eat! :D

Everyone, thank you. Stay tuned... the wheels are turning. (some clunking going on, but mostly turning :))

Utah KJ
01-25-2012, 11:24 PM
For what it's worth, my 3.4l has been sc'd for over 130k without any issue. (only driver error ;-)) The sc is very predictable off road because it's belt driven, though being used to turbos anything will feel predictable. One major thing that hasn't been mentioned about the sc is that you will have to run premium.

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Tapatalk


Nope, I already mentioned that... just sayin'

mvbeggs
01-26-2012, 10:28 PM
I called my Toyota dealer today. The TRD supercharger kit for the 2012's are not available until May. The service manager asked that I call back in May when they would, hopefully, have better information.

One more thing. A double cab, V6, automatic, regeared 4.56 and running 33" tires is geared almost identical to the manual transmission model running stock tires (265/70R16). Just more food for thought.

tacogrande
01-26-2012, 11:08 PM
I called my Toyota dealer today. The TRD supercharger kit for the 2012's are not available until May. The service manager asked that I call back in May when they would, hopefully, have better information.

One more thing. A double cab, V6, automatic, regeared 4.56 and running 33" tires is geared almost identical to the manual transmission model running stock tires (265/70R16). Just more food for thought.
I ran 3.73's with 33's for 65,000 miles on my 05 with the 6 speed manual without issue. Heck I briefly ran 37's on 3.73's and got around just fine (didn't use 6th gear much though). I'm currently running 4.88's with 37's and it is far too low for long range freeway use, and I wish I would have went with 4.56 gears. I think you will be happy with a 'charger and 33's. If you don't want to wait for TRD to get things straight Gadget has a far superior option for forced induction- http://www.urdusa.com/Forced-Induction-URD-Supercharger-Kits/c168_2/p1260518946/URD-Mk3-Supercharger-kit,-2005-2008-Tacoma-V6,-Stage-1/product_info.html?osCsid=v7ualkppp461tl3imf71a2mou 1

mvbeggs
01-27-2012, 12:47 AM
I ran 3.73's with 33's for 65,000 miles on my 05 with the 6 speed manual without issue. Heck I briefly ran 37's on 3.73's and got around just fine (didn't use 6th gear much though). I'm currently running 4.88's with 37's and it is far too low for long range freeway use, and I wish I would have went with 4.56 gears....

Although lower than I want to be; 37's, a manual and 4.88's doesn't seem too bad. I bet you're close to 2800 rpm at 75mph. For the same rpm's, I'm guessing 4.56's would have only gained you about 5mph on the highway. In comparison to the autos, the manuals are geared quite a bit lower.


I think you will be happy with a 'charger and 33's.
If you don't want to wait for TRD to get things straight Gadget has a far superior option for forced induction- http://www.urdusa.com/Forced-Induction-URD-Supercharger-Kits/c168_2/p1260518946/URD-Mk3-Supercharger-kit,-2005-2008-Tacoma-V6,-Stage-1/product_info.html?osCsid=v7ualkppp461tl3imf71a2mou 1

Doesn't look like URD is offering anything for the V6 before '08.

Anyhow, IF I go supercharger, I'll wait for the TRD version and have a dealer install it. I like the idea of Toyota extending my warranty and I also like the low end torque that the TRD unit seems to produce. (I still need to verify this with Toyota) I'll especially need the low end torque if I stay with the 3.73's.

Right now I'm leaming toward limiting tire size to 32", which will gear me only about 4% above stock configuration. I'll run that configuration to see how the Tacoma handles the added weight of armor and towing the Chaser. If I'm not satisfied, then I'll either supercharge OR regear to 4.56 and go to 33" tires. Keeping the smaller tires with the tall diff gears will gear me lower than I want to be. (4.56 with 33's gears me about 13% lower than stock- cruise 85mph @ 2800rpm, 4.56 with 32's will gear me about 18% lower than stock- cruise 85mph @ 2950rpm)

Stay tuned. Body armor order is about finalized.

downhill
01-27-2012, 02:58 AM
I don't follow the herd, so it's no surprise that I run a tire that never gets mentioned. After trying a couple of configurations I have settled on the 235/85-16 as my absolute favorite. It runs 32" in most of the offroad treads, about 31.7 in street treads. It's available in some great builds like Yokohama Geolander, and the Cooper SST. I believe Toyo makes on as well. The ones I run are built by Cooper and similar to the SST. They are the Dean Mud Terrain SXT. It actually has more of a AT tread design which I favor. I've only done a little rock crawling at Moab and other places, but I have put them through hell on ice, snow and mud. I've been thoroughly impressed with them both on and off road. They clear without any modifications. I'm running stock alloy wheels with 1" spacers so that I can run chains without any difficulties. The tires are machine center siped. They are load range E which I also like. Aired down to 15psi they are almost like running small tracks. Even in the sloppy bentonite clay you find in Montana and Wyoming they just keep pulling. The narrow profile gives excellent directional stability in the sloppy stuff which allows allot more throttle than you could get away with in a wider tire. Chained up, well, .... not much can keep up with me. Just my 2 cents ................

mvbeggs
01-27-2012, 02:55 PM
I don't follow the herd, so it's no surprise that I run a tire that never gets mentioned. After trying a couple of configurations I have settled on the 235/85-16 as my absolute favorite. It runs 32" in most of the offroad treads, about 31.7 in street treads. It's available in some great builds like Yokohama Geolander, and the Cooper SST. I believe Toyo makes on as well. The ones I run are built by Cooper and similar to the SST. They are the Dean Mud Terrain SXT. It actually has more of a AT tread design which I favor. I've only done a little rock crawling at Moab and other places, but I have put them through hell on ice, snow and mud. I've been thoroughly impressed with them both on and off road. They clear without any modifications. I'm running stock alloy wheels with 1" spacers so that I can run chains without any difficulties. The tires are machine center siped. They are load range E which I also like. Aired down to 15psi they are almost like running small tracks. Even in the sloppy bentonite clay you find in Montana and Wyoming they just keep pulling. The narrow profile gives excellent directional stability in the sloppy stuff which allows allot more throttle than you could get away with in a wider tire. Chained up, well, .... not much can keep up with me. Just my 2 cents ................

235/85R16 is the size I've been considering. E rated loading, usually 10 ply, 31.7"-32" inch diameter, and in most cases works with the factory wheels. I have checked out the Coopers, but was looking at the STMAXX. Toyo does make a 235 in the A/T and M/T version. I run Toyo Open Country M/T's on the Jeep and love them on the trail and rocks. Don't know how well they'll do in the snow. We slid, backwards, back down a small snow covered grade on Imogene Pass last Fall. About gave my wife a heart attack.:Wow1: I chocked it up to driver error rather than tire. (Don't tell her I said that. LOL ) We haven't had any snow this year to really give them a good test.

I'll have to take a look at the Yokohama and Dean's. Haven't heard of the Deans. What made you try them?

downhill
01-27-2012, 03:43 PM
The factory wheels work perfectly with them. I tried the Deans on a recommendation from a friend in the tire business. I was able to see them in person as well. They are made in the USA by Cooper, just sold under a different label. The only slightly negative comment I can make about them is that they seem to have a little softer sidewalls than some of the other offerings. I have never lost one due to a sidewall failure, but I haven't done that much rock wheeling either. Most of my challenges come in the form of low traction. I haven't had such good luck with the Toyo on snow and ice, and that is why I don't run them. The ones I've run were very tough though. I think the rubber compound is a little harder. I may try one of the Coopers next time just for a change. One thing that really impressed me about the Deans is the lack of runout. I always watch my tires being balanced so I can visual for any sign of excessive runout. Usually there is a little, which is OK, but these things ran dead true. That's unusual.

Here's what they look like on a stock 16x7 wheel. My hub/fender distance is 22" which is about 2" over stock on average.

83530