Solid front axle AND Coil springs

[G35Vortec454]

I've just returned from my first Baja Exploration trip with my RV where I found its weakness in traversing deep sand, even with its dually tires aired way down. It is equipped with rear Dana 70 with ARB locker and a transfer case (which is not yet connected to a front axle). The actual weight was 10100-lbs(10500GVWR).

I already have the IFS front axle and suspension parts from the K3500 donor vehicle I used to build-up the RV but I'm re-considering it out because of the RV front-end weight (heavy concealed bumper, winch, and 10500#GWVR).

So, I'm thinking of getting a Dana 60 and install it with coil springs. Why coil springs? For comfort, softer ride - it's an RV.

Any input, guidance, thoughts will be much appreciated, especially from Chris (Ujointclothing), ETbadger, and other 4x4 van owners.

Here's the vehicle specs:
1998 454 Vortec in a 79 Vandura G35 Dually B+ RV, 4L80E, BW4470/2.72-underdrive, ARB switchable 4.10:1 differential locker, 19.5 Rickson wheels, 34-inch 14-ply Bridgestone M724s.

[crawler#976]

If you use a D60 from a Ford F250, it's already set for coils.

Donahoe Racing produces a 4 link conversion for the axle above - I'm sure the brackets can be adapted to your van.

And, again, Donahoe makes coil springs and shocks for the heavy duty Ford front axle ,as well as shock hoops and other needed items.

It might be worth investigating!

[ujoint]

Adapting parts from other vehicles like the Superduty is going to be more trouble than it's worth. You're looking at a 100% custom job that needs to completed by someone that has excellent fabrication skills & knowledge. Where do you live? I would expect to pay well over 15K for a conversion like that (done right) Do it nice or do it twice................. :)

[crawler#976]

I think your a wee bit high on the 15k estimate, I've got less than that into a well built rock crawler...

http://www.pavementsucks.com/tech/dana60swap.php

has a tech on swapping in a D60 - on a 1/2T, but the same principles apply.

[ujoint]

That Dodge is a bad example, too many existing parts. Not sure if he stated a total cost, I didn't read all of it.You have to consider all of the fabrication involved. The upper coil mount needs to be strong enough to hold all the weight of the van, doing an engine x-over bar won't be possible due to an already tight engine compartment. Then a x-member needs to be made to support the 4-link bars, more fab work. The there's the trac bar, sway bar?, bumpstops & steering. Let alone the labor to remove the existing suspension, cleaning & prepping the frame, and the hours & hours involved with making sure everything will work. Materials alone will be allot of $$, the axle, heims,tubing, steel plate, steering components, brake lines, driveshaft, ram assist (recommended), coils or coil over's, and I'm sure there are a few odds & ends I'm forgetting. I was actually low balling with the 15K, I've done several 4 link conversions that went well over 20K. Here's a Willy's that we did a few years ago while the 4 link conversion was goin down.


http://www.ujointclothing.com/news/gallery/large_images/16.jpg

[ujoint]

Or here's another option, my buddy's Excursion has a pretty nice suspension from One-Up-Offroad. You don't even want to know how much this setup costs....... :) BTW--those are 49's, and this think WORKS!!!

http://www.ujointclothing.com/news/gallery/large_images/20.jpg

[G35Vortec454]

I want to add that this RV is not for serious rock-crawling. If I can just give the rear dually wheels a LITTLE help (from the front) on the sand dunes, that would be sufficient, short of not bringing sand-ladders. I need a part-power 4wd, not full or part-time :)

I'm thinking more toward the F350 Dana 60 because of the RV's GVWR. I believe the F250 supports 8000-GVWR.

15K to 20K - that's kind of pricey, considering I've already put more than $30K into the build-up of the RV; But keep em ideas/suggestions/alternatives coming.

[gjackson]

I would consider getting rid of the dually's for a single tire at the rear. Duallys are not very good in sand any way you cut it.

cheers

[goodtimes]

Or here's another option, my buddy's Excursion has a pretty nice suspension from One-Up-Offroad. You don't even want to know how much this setup costs....... :) BTW--those are 49's, and this think works

I guess "works" is all a matter of perspective.

G35, if you don't do your own fabrication, I suggest you talk to some local shops before you start collecting parts. Paying someone to do that much work will not be cheap....far from $15K though. Closer to $10K with alloy shafts, locker, and coil overs. Also, keep in mind that Ford Dana 60's, particularly the 78 and 79's are getting hard to find, and expensive when you do....particularly out west. There are plenty of guys around the Sonoran Desert that have paid over $1000 for a stock HP60 with kingpins....then immediatly dropped another $2500 into it for gears, locker, shafts, and seals.

[ujoint]

The late model Ford D60's are the same axle between the F250's & F350's. No differences.

[G35Vortec454]

The late model Ford D60's are the same axle between the F250's & F350's. No differences.

Chris, starting from what model year? Thanks.

[G35Vortec454]

I would consider getting rid of the dually's for a single tire at the rear. Duallys are not very good in sand any way you cut it.

cheers

gjackson, I'm considering that - putting superwides in the rear. But I'll do more experimenting with the dually tires. With the wide Rickson wheels I can air down to 10psi and the tires won't even touch each other. The RV floats real well on sand dune flats but when going uphill on blow sand that's when I need traction from the front. It's very capable when the tires are properly aired-down. But the lack of 4WD limits it to a second-class expedition vehicle. I want to be able to go where the "big boys" go without resorting to sand/mud ladders each time I go there.

[G35Vortec454]

Would leaf springs (rather than coils) make the conversion MUCH simpler?

[ujoint]

I'm refering to the 99- current Ford axles. A good quality leaf spring should work fine for you, since you won't be haulin too much tail in a rig that large. The key will be length of the front springs. It will be simpler to go leafs.

[ntsqd]

ORD (http://www.offroaddesign.com/) has a linkage/coil spring kit in the works for K5's etc. Might worth talking to them about your application.

[pete.wilson]

Hey

I had contacted a couple of companies about modifying my 95 Ford/Horton E350 ambulance that I had at the time which had a 7.3l turbo diesel and I think it was advance 4WD systems (if I remember right) quoted me $13,200.00 to convert it to 4WD, a little too expensive for my taste (the two that replied were within a couple of hundred from each other). I'm going to be building my 94 GMC Sub that I have now. I plan on keeping the IFS but will next year add a 6 inch lift. I would recommend if you do it; go to a reputable, well known facility due to safety and better engineering.

[G35Vortec454]

What if I use the original donor-K3500 front diff and axles and hubs, fabricate the mount/link to the van/RV, AND purchase one of the already engineered lift kits from RCD / Tuff Country / Camburg, etc.? I may have to use the original torsion bars, too?

Any input on the above approach?

[ntsqd]

I believe the soon to be released ORD 4-link kit is designed to use your existing front axle. It is designed to fit the '73-'91 K5/K10/K20 GM 4wd frame. How close your frame is to those will determine how much of a bolt-on kit it is.

Never mix spring types. They each have their own spring rate deltas and mixing them can make getting the shock valving even close to correct an absolute nightmare. We were tempted to try it anyway on a friend's Dura-Max project as we were a little uncomfortable with where the spring load met the lower control arm, but it just wasn't worth the headache, so instead of 3" Kings with light springs it got 3" Kings with weight appropriate springs. Never was an issue for the time he owned the truck.

[G35Vortec454]

ntsqd, thanks for staying with this thread.

Yes, I've been looking over ORU's (and ORD's) website and they carry all 7 brands of suspensions lifts (ORD sells Tuff Country), including CST which is very local to my place. One thing I can't find is something specific to K3500. But if I'm "fabricating it" into a non-target vehicle anyway, it doesn't matter to me as long as the entire kit assembly is strong enough (may need additional heat treating?) and is engineered for proper suspension/steering/tracking geometry.

Chris/Ujointclothing, I live in San Bernardino and we've "talked" in the past (via the 4x4van Yahoo group) when you were still working in Burbank/ORU.

I'm looking for a suspension kit that is most complete inorder to minimize mismatches - one that already includes lower and upper arms, spindles, cross members, steering knuckles/kits, spring/shock mounts, trackbars (may be optional as this is easy to fabricate and locate), etc that I may have missed. So far the "most" complete kit I see are the new Fabtechs, but the lifts are too high; I need only 4-5 inches of lift, but since the van's frame rails are higher than pickups', 6-10 may be OK. Currently as a 2WD, the RV sits on a "fabricated into" Fabtech 4.5-inch spindle lift suspension, and after having driven it for more than 7K miles I'm happy with the steering/tracking/etc. BUT now I would like some drive-power from those front wheels.

Once I have all the front suspension parts, I'm gonna fabricate (or have someone do it) the brackets/links etc. to the differential and frame, including engine mounts. If I have to I can have the axles lenghthend / shortened / adjusted and probably wouldn't hurt to use double-cardan CV joints. Then the whole assembly "should" just be able to be placed under the existing van frame rails.

What do you guys think?

Of course, the Ford Dana 60 solid axle with coils (as Crawler had suggested w/ Donahue racing's, I'm gonna look more into that) can also be used along the same principles but if it's much more difficult to fit, even with an engineered aftermarket Ford suspension kit, then I'm thinking why not use the GM front diff that I already have.

[ntsqd]

Some pics off Race-dezert of the ORD system:
http://www.race-dezert.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=23867&d=1181520951

http://www.race-dezert.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=23868&d=1181521113

[G35Vortec454]

Some pics off Race-dezert of the ORD system:
http://www.race-dezert.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=23867&d=1181520951

http://www.race-dezert.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=23868&d=1181521113

Thanks,

That looks VERY simple, but I think the very high lift nature of it provides a lot of space down there.

[ntsqd]

Keep in mind that these K series frames do not have a lot of rise over their front axle. The only way to get a lot of bump travel with them is to go up. If the van's frame has more rise then it won't result in as tall of a ride height.

In any case, it's the closest to fitting kit that I know of. The less you have to have custom made the lower the overal cost, but at some point in trying to make any particular kit fit you might as well have started from scratch. I advise lots and lots of thinking, pondering, & measuring. If you're not going to be doing the work then I suggest getting whomever is going to be doing the work involved early in the selection process. I know of a reputable shop that has done work like this (I've worked with them on past similarly involved projects), but they are not very local to you.

[ujoint]

First off, the IFS swap is going to be a complete nightmare to install properly on your van. And then, when it's done, you still have a not so great unreliable IFS 4x4. Waaaaaay too much work. Did you say the van already has a t-case? If not, that's the first thing to do. I know you have a late model vortec engine, but what tranny are you running? If it's late model as well, then you'll have to run a Ford axle, which was talked about earlier. Don't even consider a divorced t-case. The late model axle could be used, and a custom x-member could be made for the 4link or radius arm, depending on which route you decide to take. ----------- The ORD kit is awesome, and could be somewhat utilized if you run a chevy t-case. They probably won't piece out the kit, but all you would need would be the axle mounts, the frame mounts won't work for you. So I guess the question right now is the t-case/tranny issue.

[G35Vortec454]

The ORD kit is awesome, and could be somewhat utilized if you run a chevy t-case. They probably won't piece out the kit, but all you would need would be the axle mounts, the frame mounts won't work for you. So I guess the question right now is the t-case/tranny issue.

Chris, yes I've been driving the RV for the past 7K miles with the transfer case installed (stock '98 BW4470) behind the stock '98 4L80E transmission, and of course the '98 Vortec 454.

What I hear you saying is get a late-model Ford Dana60 and the ORD Ford D60 kit, fabricate axle mounts, and walla I have a coil sprung front end!!! Well, I know I'll have to drill or weld the kit's attachment points but I can do that, along with a lot of elbow grease. That would be wonderful. I will surely look seriously into that.

Thanks.

(Edit: I don't see a kit in ORD's website. They mention the Tuff Counry EZ-Ride suspension kits)

[jkam]

Who installed the transfer case? Is it for a Ford or a Chevy?

My 86 G30 Pathfinder has leaf spring front suspension using a Dana 44:( from a Ford.
It has to be a Ford axle so the driveshaft comes out on the left to clear the frame of the Chevy. Same for the transfer case, needs to be Ford as well.
Mine is a BW 1345 and connected to a Turbo 400.

[G35Vortec454]

Who installed the transfer case? Is it for a Ford or a Chevy?



I installed the BW4470 transfer case myself. It is the original Chevy transfer case from the K3500 donor vehicle and it's the 1-ton heavy duty version of your BW1345. I used it in place of an adapter for two reasons: 1) I couldn't easily find an adapter for the '98 K3500 4WD 4L80E tranny to the '79 RV's 2WD 2-piece drive shafts, 2) I knew I might want to convert to 4WD later.

You're right what I need is a driver-side diff axle like the Ford's, but I need it beefier than a D44 due to my 10500# GVWR.

The two options I'm considering right now for coil suspension are:

1. 99-up F250/F350 suspension KIT and a D60 axle
2. the "most" complete GM K2500HD/3500 suspension kit (I'll use the original donor K3500's front differential and axles).

JKAM, why does the transfer case have to be also a Ford? The BW4470 front output shaft goes through the driver side and the front driveshaft could easily be lengthened or shortened, or any of the driveshaft's ends could be adapted for either Chevy or Ford's.

[ujoint]

You're not going to be able to use any of the ORD stuff. The next step for you is to get under a late model F250/350 and take some measurements. The first that I would check is the width of the radius arms, center to center. Then you can compare it to your frame. Even though it seems like it's going to be a somewhat easy swap, it's not, there are allot of things that need to checked out. It's even harder when you want to keep the rig as low as possible. If you're going to have a shop do the work, get them involved now and let them know the route you want to take.

[ntsqd]

I would completely abandon any idea of using the GM 4wd IFS stuff. If you have to have IFS look at the TTB's. They have some issues, but solutions are out there and available.
In your weight range a D44/GM10b isn't an option either. They'd likely carry the weight, but they aren't strong enough to actually be used in 4wd.
Later Fords use a 4 link instead of the radius arm. Might have a look at Cage Off Road's SD parts, could save some fab time & expense.

Second getting a shop involved early in the process.

[ujoint]

I would completely abandon any idea of using the GM 4wd IFS stuff. If you have to have IFS look at the TTB's. They have some issues, but solutions are out there and available.
In your weight range a D44/GM10b isn't an option either. They'd likely carry the weight, but they aren't strong enough to actually be used in 4wd.
Later Fords use a 4 link instead of the radius arm. Might have a look at Cage Off Road's SD parts, could save some fab time & expense.

Second getting a shop involved early in the process.

I agree, but the 05 to current Ford come from the factory with radius arms. There are 4 link lift kits available through several manufacturers.

[jkam]

I installed the BW4470 transfer case myself. It is the original Chevy transfer case from the K3500 donor vehicle and it's the 1-ton heavy duty version of your BW1345. I used it in place of an adapter for two reasons: 1) I couldn't easily find an adapter for the '98 K3500 4WD 4L80E tranny to the '79 RV's 2WD 2-piece drive shafts, 2) I knew I might want to convert to 4WD later.

You're right what I need is a driver-side diff axle like the Ford's, but I need it beefier than a D44 due to my 10500# GVWR.

The two options I'm considering right now for coil suspension are:

1. 99-up F250/F350 suspension KIT and a D60 axle
2. the "most" complete GM K2500HD/3500 suspension kit (I'll use the original donor K3500's front differential and axles).

JKAM, why does the transfer case have to be also a Ford? The BW4470 front output shaft goes through the driver side and the front driveshaft could easily be lengthened or shortened, or any of the driveshaft's ends could be adapted for either Chevy or Ford's.

On my setup, the transfer case used was for a Ford with the left side output to the front so it would match to the axle.
Since your TC does that you should be fine with that setup.

Me, I would go with leaf springs becasue it will be much easier of a conversion and ditch the duals in the rear for some singles. Pathfinder might be able to help with info on the front Dana 60 you need. Gordon is a good source of info.

[G35Vortec454]

The next step for you is to get under a late model F250/350 and take some measurements. The first that I would check is the width of the radius arms, center to center. Then you can compare it to your frame.

U hit it on the head.

It's time to hit the car lots and/or asking friends who's got a 2005-up F250/F350SD and take 'em measurements. I wonder if I could rent one from the Used Car lots for a week or 2?

Fabtech offers an 05-08 Ford 250/350 6-inch complete lift kit (including the longer radius arms) for $1800 and the 4-link version for $2200. (Looks like the 4-link version is a better system, huh?). Also, I'm sure Ford Parts sells the other needed parts on an individual basis (if I can't find any wrecking yard units, as it is very unlikely to find any); all I have to do then is to fabricate the attachments points to my un-Ford van frame.

So maybe for around $5000 for purchased parts and a $1000 Dana 60, plus fabrication, the whole thing can be done for $7-8K???

Thanks everyone.

[G35Vortec454]

If I went with a front Dana 60 I'd "engineer" my RV's front suspension like the 05-08 F350 front suspension with the factory radius arms. BUT . . .

After a lot of thought, I've decided to go with the IFS Independent Carrier Assembly (ICA - as it is called by GM) and use beefed up halfshafts and CV joints.

So, wish me luck . . . or say your piece now (further discourage me).:(

Cutting is set to begin next month!!!

[ujoint]

You're CRAZY!!!! I hope it works for ya, good luck..... :)

[G35Vortec454]

You're CRAZY!!!! ..... :)

I've been called that before :) But it's gotta work; Quigley makes them work.

I've scored a Dana 60 and will keep it in the garage just in case during the maiden voyage with the front IFS differential and the pumpkin blows up . . .

[ujoint]

Sounds like you already know the IFS is gonna grenade!! If you already have the 60, why not just install it instead? I'd love to able say I told ya so, but I don't want to see you built the van twice!!! :)

[G35Vortec454]

After trying to figure out where the torsion bars will hang, I'm convinced that it will REALLY compromise ground clearance.

OK, I changed my mind. I'm now going with the Ford 05-08 suspension (coil sprung / radius arms solid axle) design. (I just have an aversion for leaf springs).

Who has an F350 (2005-2008) that I can "borrow" or "rent" for a week or two so I can bring it home just for taking measurements???

[spencyg]

Any reason in particular you don't like leaf springs? They are so simple and effective....I REALLY like the KISS method of vehicle design and construction...

Spence

[G35Vortec454]

Spence, leaf springs give a harsh ride, or so I've read and heard. Fruthermore, I like Ford's newer technology/suspension.

[spencyg]

I think it depends on the leafs...I've been in a stock 2002 F250 Superduty with front leafs and it rode like buttah.

Spence