Do's and Don'ts Towing Off Road

[kb7our]

Hello all. I've been lurking here for weeks reading and researching trailers and now have an AT Horizon on order (after starting out with a Chaser order) which is anticipated to be completed the end of Sep - give or take. I've already learned a ton about the hobby - something I just started dabbling with after acquiring a jeep a few months ago. Unless I missed it, I have not found much reading material about "do's and don'ts" of towing an off road trailer so as not to get into trouble tipping over, etc. I've pulled a few camping trailers but only on the highway and as I get prepped for my new AT I would enjoy reading your hints and tips to stay out of trouble. Thanks and happy to be aboard.

[Halboo]

Please read this.
http://forums.bajanomad.com/viewthread.php?tid=26162

[Nuclear Redneck]

1. Slow down! Seriously, take your time.
2. Remember that you have an extra set of wheels behind you. Wait for the trailer to clear the obstacle.
3. Leave your testosterone at home. If you have doubts about your ability to make an obstacle, then don't try yet until you are more familiar with your rig and its limitations.
4. Make sure you have adequate tongue weight. About 60% of your trailer's weight should be forward of the axle.
5. Your trailer will pull harder in soft sand or mud than it does on the highway. I'd halve your tow vehicle's towing capacity for off road work.

Hope this helps,

[spressomon]

Don't be afraid to air down the trailer tires in rocky terrain...just like the pull rig!

[grouch]

Don't let the trailer pass you.

[Tucson T4R]

Don't let the trailer pass you.


Now that is a tip worth remembering!:REOutArchery02:

I agree with the other suggestions above. Slow down and relax. Be aware the trailer will track inside your tow rigs's tracks when turning and plan ahead for where your trailer will be tracking.

If you have the luxury of electric trailer brakes they really add a lot of control and safety. If needed when offroading you can manualy activate the trailer brakes without steping on your truck's brakes. I found that to be helpful when towing in slipery conditions, going down hill.

If you do look out see your trailer passing you. Get out and run away!

[Whoknows]

Hey, glad to see you made it on the forum. I agree with the above (airing down the trailer is something I'd like to hear more about -- not sure how that would help -- but I bet others can explain). Being a newbie myself, I'd say it is really about experience. Take it offroad often in easy conditions and/or in limited challenges. I gained a ton of experience this summer and now have a much better feel for how to wheel with the trailer. Enjoy!

[Andrew Walcker]

1. Slow down! Seriously, take your time.
2. Remember that you have an extra set of wheels behind you. Wait for the trailer to clear the obstacle.
3. Leave your testosterone at home. If you have doubts about your ability to make an obstacle, then don't try yet until you are more familiar with your rig and its limitations.
4. Make sure you have adequate tongue weight. About 60% of your trailer's weight should be forward of the axle.
5. Your trailer will pull harder in soft sand or mud than it does on the highway. I'd halve your tow vehicle's towing capacity for off road work.

Hope this helps,

X2 :iagree:

Welcome Aboard! :beer:

Congratulations on your AT Horizon decision. IMHO, you have purchased one of the finest off road trailers to ever touch dirt (I have a AT Horizon also so am a bit biased)!

In addition to the advice already put forth, I will give you my opinion as I have followed both Horizons and Chasers for many miles off road. I am assuming that you will be using the Lock N' Roll hitch and the Silent Hitch Pins. These items along with the air-bag suspension will give you NO indication that you are towing! This system is absolutley seemless in the fact that there are none of the typical noises or jolts/bumps that are associated with towing a trailer. Most people use these noises and vibrations to gauge the limitations of a trailer. Without these reminders most people seem to speed up as they are not receiving the usual feedback they are used to getting indicating that the trailer is nearing its limit. I know Martyn will probably jump in at any moment and further explain why we all want to mash on the skinny pedal with our trailer in tow:)

[Martyn]

I know Martyn will probably jump in at any moment and further explain why we all want to mash on the skinny pedal with our trailer in tow:)

Andrew I think you guys are doing just fine, why drag me into this ???

Andrew and I have had this discussion many times, and we both believe the reason for most AT problems is that drivers forgetting they are towing a trailer. So remember you now have 3 axles.

As far as tracking goes the AT tracks very close to the vehicles path, it has a lot to do with the distance from the coupler to the axle, but Mario does all that engineering and calculus stuff, I just sell the things :)

Mario has really perfected the Off Road Trailer Technique, (ORTT, got to love those acronyms!) he is the master of the manual brake controller. I heard that Margaritas will loosen his tongue.

[Andrew Walcker]

Andrew I think you guys are doing just fine, why drag me into this ???


Like we could have a discussion on this forum about trailers without your input! :shakin:

[Martyn]

Like we could have a discussion on this forum about trailers without your input! :shakin:

Yeah I know.

As they say free advise is worth what you pay for it, and opinions are like a-holes and elbows, everyone's got one.

Cheers.

[slosurfer]

I too, have a question about airing down the trailer tires. I don't see where it will help in the rocks, seems like it would just create more rolling resistance. In the sand, my trailer seemed to pull easier when it wasn't aired down, I could see that in some deep mud, airing them down may help float it a little bit more. The one place I have seen it help mine is on washboard roads aired down just a little bit. Anyways, I have seen others say to air down and I would like to be schooled on why.

Oh, and to the OP, make sure you take it out for some test runs, load it down with something to about the weight that it would be when you use it. Test it on dirt roads, trails, street, etc... Better to learn close to home.

[Casper]

I would agree with everyone else. Take your time and practice. The two things I suggest would be to go to your local OHV park and start with little opsticles and work your way up. Second, and this may sound dumb but practice backing up. Try long distances, corners and anything you can think of. If you have friends like mine then you will end up on a wrong trail with no easy way to turn around. I have even backed down a switch-back trail for what I swear was 1/2 mile (my friends say it was only a few hundred yard, I still don't agree.)
As for airing down, well I have tried it both ways. I have to say I find it easier at almost full pressure. The trailer seems to roll over bigger rocks better. That being said I have only been towing off-road for two summer seasons, so I may not have had it in all conditions. I hope this helps.

Congrats on your purchase. I know you will love it.

Casper
:smiley_drive:

[Martyn]

I too, have a question about airing down the trailer tires. I don't see where it will help in the rocks, seems like it would just create more rolling resistance. In the sand, my trailer seemed to pull easier when it wasn't aired down, I could see that in some deep mud, airing them down may help float it a little bit more. The one place I have seen it help mine is on washboard roads aired down just a little bit. Anyways, I have seen others say to air down and I would like to be schooled on why.

Oh, and to the OP, make sure you take it out for some test runs, load it down with something to about the weight that it would be when you use it. Test it on dirt roads, trails, street, etc... Better to learn close to home.

Chris

There seems to be some definite answers to trailer tire inflation;

Don't air down in snow
Don't air down in sand, unless the trailer bogs down, which they usually don't
Air down in deep mud


There are also some indefinites that seem to be preferences.

air down on corrugations
air down on rocks
air down off road

I think it would depend a lot on what pressure you are running your tires on a regular basis and what you consider airing down. If your running the tires at 28 lbs on road would you consider it airing down if you reduced it to 20 lbs for off road?? Or would it need to be less, say 15 lbs??

Suspension also plays a big part. I think you have a military trailer, so airing down off road on your trailer would probably have much more effect on smoothing out the ride than on a double leaf parabolic spring with Teflon friction pads. With AT's airbag suspension there is a much bigger cushion effect with the air bag so airing down the tires would have less effect, unless your air bags were over inflated. Having said that "Spressomon" believes in airing down on his Horizon ??

Dare these variables!

[spressomon]

Having said that "Spressomon" believes in airing down on his Horizon ?? Dare these variables!

You betcha! Of course "rocks" is a fairly ambiguous term...but on more aggressive rocky trails it seems to calm the Horizon quite a bit. Where I would air my LC down to say 18-20lbs. the Horizon likes it about the same or a little less. Mind you I am talking about fairly rugged trails...NOT gravel/washboard type surfaces...I'm still learning this stuff ;-)

[kb7our]

Hey, glad to see you made it on the forum. I agree with the above (airing down the trailer is something I'd like to hear more about -- not sure how that would help -- but I bet others can explain). Being a newbie myself, I'd say it is really about experience. Take it offroad often in easy conditions and/or in limited challenges. I gained a ton of experience this summer and now have a much better feel for how to wheel with the trailer. Enjoy!

Thanks for helping me get my private email message to the moderator so I could begin to post - much appreciated!

So far all great advice so keep it coming eveyone. Late 90's we had a Coleman Taos then upgraded to a couple of different TrailManor models pulling with a Yukon XL and the Prodigy controller which I kept after selling the Yukon to get the Jeep. Prodigy is installed and ready to go. I can certainly relate to the "take your time" suggestion and taking things slow. I learned this "mild" wheeling in late 80's with various Toyota trucks and a 4-Runner. The last few years we converted to RVing with our Dolphin. So the AT will be for the adventures all around AZ (we're near Phx) and in particular during the mild winters here. I now have my first jeep and the AT will be my first real off road trailer for my wife and I - two teenage daughters aren't interested. Of course the Golden will probably tag along. Back to more great reading. Man I wish I was ready to retire!

[slosurfer]

Thanks Martyn and Spressomon for the explanation of "airing down" in certain situations. That gives me a good place to start experimenting from.:arabia:

[elcoyote]

Our friend Doug who tows his Chaser with a nicely modified Rubicon put together a list of things that he felt were relevant specifically to his towing experiences on difficult off camber rocky trails such as the Rubicon. Here are his notes:

How to pull a trailer through the rocks


BEFORE:
-air down tires to less than 10 psi (based upon a 35x12.50x15)
-get center of gravity as low as possible (heavy items packed low in trailer body, 60% forward of axle, 40% behind)
-remove jack
-check hitch for tightness, obstructions underneath
-no exposed wiring, check brake lights
-rear tow point
-side ‘flop’ extraction points
-spotters line (and place to connect them)
-rock lights / reverse lights
-remove all excess weight
-check trailer brakes, with the vehicle and manual control
-brakes should be able to lock up when using manual control around 15-25 mph
-braking should be even between the two sides
-brakes should not lock up on dirt when using vehicle brakes at 3-7 mph
-tilt side mirrors down so you can see the tires of the trailer
-make sure safety chains are attached and out of the way. Make sure they can extend while turning without breaking

-STEEP CLILMBS:
-if you think traction is an issue, lock the vehicle axles before you start the climb
-front tires up slowly, rear tires may need a ‘bump’, trailer tires up slowly
-if the climb is consistent, keep momentum consistent
-if the climb has rocks or cracks, proceed across them slowly, while keeping momentum as needed
-choose your ‘line’ diligently, as you may not have a second chance.
-off-camber is not as crucial in a climb, but should still be considered if it is excessive
-anticipate your route 50 feet in advance, in order to position the trailer for the next obstacle

-STEEP DESCENTS:
-use engine compression whenever possible
-toggle the brake to keep the speed slow enough so the trailer does not bounce
-if the drop is off-camber, use a spotter line
-use the trailer brakes where needed (not in a sliding situation)

-TIGHT TURNS
-swing the vehicle wide enough to clear the trailer around the obstacle
-if the trailer is too close to a tree or rock, stack rocks or other objects next to the obstacle. When the trailer approaches, the tires will climb the stacked rocks and tilt the trailer away from the obstacle.
-check to see how off-camber the turn is and act appropriately
-use the trailer brakes manually to make the trailer turn SHARPER than the vehicle, when needed.

-OFF CAMBER
-this is perhaps the most difficult of challenges when wheeling with a trailer.
-DROP
-if the drop is larger than half of the size of the tire, use a spotters’ line on the opposite side.
-if possible, drop both trailer tires off at the same time
-if the trail is next to a drop off, use a spotters line
-PROCEED SLOWLY!!!! Let one tire drop off slowly, and then the opposite tire. do not increase speed between the two tires dropping!
-check the obstacle for the possibility of a slide. If one tires drops and then slides, the trailer WILL flop.

-TURNS
-proceed as slowly as possible.
-if the outside of the turn has a berm, use it to keep the trailer level.

-SPOTTERS' LINE (winchline.com)
-have two ready, or wrap one for use on both sides (trailer can switch leaning directions very quickly)
-attach to strong point. Anticipate obstacles on the side you are pulling, so you can keep a steady pull ALL of the way through the obstacle
-keep good communication with the driver, letting them know when to slow down for obstacles, for re-positioning of the spotters line, etc.

-BACKING UP
-use slow speed and small turns to avoid ‘jackknifing’ the trailer
-whenever possible, turn the trailer while still going forward to prepare it for the direction it needs to go in reverse.
-know how far you can back up before the bumper of the vehicle comes in contact with the tongue of the trailer
-be aware of the camber of the trailer before you back up, and if the camber will be greater or less as the trailer continues to back up.
-have reverse lights mounted on the trailer to help with visibility at night.
-make sure the area is clear of people before backing up.
-use the trailer brakes manually to make the trailer turn SHARPER than the vehicle.

-TROUBLE SHOOTING
-trailer keeps flopping
-driving too fast!
-too high tire pressure
-too high spring rate/torsion rate/air bag pressure
-center of gravity too high
-brake setting too high

Just to reiterate what Doug has said here, the number one cause of problems towing off road is driving too fast. Trailer suspensions, even independent systems, do not droop out like vehicle suspensions because there is a pivot point between the vehicle and trailer.

In wash board and rock crawling conditions, I air down my 33" trailer tires from 30 psi to 15 psi.

...and of course, practice, practice, practice...learn the characteristics of how your trailer handles before you put yourself in difficult conditions.

[kb7our]

Our friend Doug who tows his Chaser with a nicely modified Rubicon put together a list of things that he felt were relevant specifically to his towing experiences on difficult off camber rocky trails such as the Rubicon. Here are his notes:

How to pull a trailer through the rocks


BEFORE:
-air down tires to less than 10 psi (based upon a 35x12.50x15)
-get center of gravity as low as possible (heavy items packed low in trailer body, 60% forward of axle, 40% behind)
-remove jack
-check hitch for tightness, obstructions underneath
-no exposed wiring, check brake lights
-rear tow point
-side ‘flop’ extraction points
-spotters line (and place to connect them)
-rock lights / reverse lights
-remove all excess weight
-check trailer brakes, with the vehicle and manual control
-brakes should be able to lock up when using manual control around 15-25 mph
-braking should be even between the two sides
-brakes should not lock up on dirt when using vehicle brakes at 3-7 mph
-tilt side mirrors down so you can see the tires of the trailer
-make sure safety chains are attached and out of the way. Make sure they can extend while turning without breaking

-STEEP CLILMBS:
-if you think traction is an issue, lock the vehicle axles before you start the climb
-front tires up slowly, rear tires may need a ‘bump’, trailer tires up slowly
-if the climb is consistent, keep momentum consistent
-if the climb has rocks or cracks, proceed across them slowly, while keeping momentum as needed
-choose your ‘line’ diligently, as you may not have a second chance.
-off-camber is not as crucial in a climb, but should still be considered if it is excessive
-anticipate your route 50 feet in advance, in order to position the trailer for the next obstacle

-STEEP DESCENTS:
-use engine compression whenever possible
-toggle the brake to keep the speed slow enough so the trailer does not bounce
-if the drop is off-camber, use a spotter line
-use the trailer brakes where needed (not in a sliding situation)

-TIGHT TURNS
-swing the vehicle wide enough to clear the trailer around the obstacle
-if the trailer is too close to a tree or rock, stack rocks or other objects next to the obstacle. When the trailer approaches, the tires will climb the stacked rocks and tilt the trailer away from the obstacle.
-check to see how off-camber the turn is and act appropriately
-use the trailer brakes manually to make the trailer turn SHARPER than the vehicle, when needed.

-OFF CAMBER
-this is perhaps the most difficult of challenges when wheeling with a trailer.
-DROP
-if the drop is larger than half of the size of the tire, use a spotters’ line on the opposite side.
-if possible, drop both trailer tires off at the same time
-if the trail is next to a drop off, use a spotters line
-PROCEED SLOWLY!!!! Let one tire drop off slowly, and then the opposite tire. do not increase speed between the two tires dropping!
-check the obstacle for the possibility of a slide. If one tires drops and then slides, the trailer WILL flop.

-TURNS
-proceed as slowly as possible.
-if the outside of the turn has a berm, use it to keep the trailer level.

-SPOTTERS' LINE (winchline.com)
-have two ready, or wrap one for use on both sides (trailer can switch leaning directions very quickly)
-attach to strong point. Anticipate obstacles on the side you are pulling, so you can keep a steady pull ALL of the way through the obstacle
-keep good communication with the driver, letting them know when to slow down for obstacles, for re-positioning of the spotters line, etc.

-BACKING UP
-use slow speed and small turns to avoid ‘jackknifing’ the trailer
-whenever possible, turn the trailer while still going forward to prepare it for the direction it needs to go in reverse.
-know how far you can back up before the bumper of the vehicle comes in contact with the tongue of the trailer
-be aware of the camber of the trailer before you back up, and if the camber will be greater or less as the trailer continues to back up.
-have reverse lights mounted on the trailer to help with visibility at night.
-make sure the area is clear of people before backing up.
-use the trailer brakes manually to make the trailer turn SHARPER than the vehicle.

-TROUBLE SHOOTING
-trailer keeps flopping
-driving too fast!
-too high tire pressure
-too high spring rate/torsion rate/air bag pressure
-center of gravity too high
-brake setting too high

Just to reiterate what Doug has said here, the number one cause of problems towing off road is driving too fast. Trailer suspensions, even independent systems, do not droop out like vehicle suspensions because there is a pivot point between the vehicle and trailer.

In wash board and rock crawling conditions, I air down my 33" trailer tires from 30 psi to 15 psi.

...and of course, practice, practice, practice...learn the characteristics of how your trailer handles before you put yourself in difficult conditions.


I can see how with the type of coupler used one can "forget" they are towing. I had to work through this issue the first time towing behind the RV - Jeep is set up for flat towing also. I do intend to take it slow and learn the ropes from a lot of reading but more importantly getting out and practicing.

On another note, I feel compelled to state that I have been a real pest to Martyn with continuous email questions and I have been quite stunned actually at how patient he has been providing great information and explanations back. I've had a few email contacts with Mario too. These guys are a "class act" if I have ever seen one!

[Martyn]

On another note, I feel compelled to state that I have been a real pest to Martyn with continuous email questions and I have been quite stunned actually at how patient he has been providing great information and explanations back. I've had a few email contacts with Mario too. These guys are a "class act" if I have ever seen one!

Sorry to inform you, kb7our has exceeded the maximum e mail replies allowed per AT customer. All future e mails will be answered using our automated reply. Have a nice Day :)

[Tucson T4R]

Sorry to inform you, kb7our has exceeded the maximum e mail replies allowed per AT customer. All future e mails will be answered using our automated reply. Have a nice Day :)

ATTA BOY Martyn!! :shakin: :hehe: :jump:

[spressomon]

Great post up Mario!!! Thanks!!! Not to give you advice (ah what the heck)...but that list should come with your trailers...for us newb trailer types that like to get into trouble...:)

[elcoyote]

Great post up Mario!!! Thanks!!! Not to give you advice (ah what the heck)...but that list should come with your trailers...for us newb trailer types that like to get into trouble...:)

Dan, we too thought it was a good write up with valuable advice. Doug just gave me the list on Friday after returning from the Rubicon where he approached the trail with his trailer in tow through Wentworth, one of the more difficult routes. With a little editing, we are planning to include it in our orientation for the benefit of "Those trailer types that like to get in trouble" :) .

[kb7our]

Sorry to inform you, kb7our has exceeded the maximum e mail replies allowed per AT customer. All future e mails will be answered using our automated reply. Have a nice Day :)

Martyn,

If some strange new email id pops up and starts asking you guys more questions about ATs and it "seems" like it is coming from kb7our do not fear - you are probably in contact with my twin brother.

[Martyn]

I pulled together Doug Williams words of wisdom on Off Road Towing Technique and the 3 part video of his Rubicon crossing. It's posted on our new Resource Library page at http://www.atreport.com/resourcelibrary.html The article is also available as a pdf download from our site.

It works best if you read the article and then watch the videos, because a lot of what Doug says in the article is seen taking place in the video.

[DaktariEd]

Excellent information again, Martyn!
Thanks for the great "Resource Library" you've put up on ATReport!

http://www.bajataco.com/smileys/safari.gif

[Tucson T4R]

Great thread! I just got back from a one nighter and drove into a fairly rugged area with my trailer. When I got to the campsite I needed to turn around and back in to where I wanted the trailer. I drove down a hill to my right and then tried to back up.

The trailer keep sliding around on me and my tires kept slipping. After several tries I was just about to set the trailer brake, chock the wheels and disconnect and drive around and pull the trailer back up the hill from behind.

Now remember (and be nice) I'm a newbe towing offorad trailers. When I got out to set the trailer's parking brake, i quickly realized why I couldn't push the trailer back up the hill. In addition to electric brakes, my trailer also has surge brakes. Unless you flip a lever to block the surge brakes, when you push the trailer in reverse up a hill, you fully engage the trailer brakes. :oops:

Once disabling the surge brakes, I quite easily pushed the trailer up the hill and onto the flats. Gee, imagine that. I was just a little embarrassed to say the least.

You can list this under the don't side of the offroad trailers do's and don'ts.:shakin:

[CoastalDefender]

I'll come from the angle of my profession, which is 100% dealing with trailers (I drive a truck and train new truck drivers).

PRACTICE BACKING UP. This is the toughest part of having a trailer, and the toughest to master.

Once you get it, take a whole saturday and back it up. Practice in a school parking lot or something, take your time and the 3 most important (in succession) exercises are-
1. Straight line.
2. Sight-side backing. (Trailer moving to the left)
3. Blind-side backing. (Trailer to the right)

practice them in an open parking lot, then in your driveway/lawn, then in dirt or sand, and ONLY WHEN YOU FEEL CONFIDENT, and realize how things should look in your mirrors, take it offroad.

Nothing worse than watching someone screw up their camper at a campground out here by backing it into trees and fencing because their ego was too big to practice doing it RIGHT at home.

And nothing more accomplished than watching someone backup their trailer like a pro.

And great post by elcoyote.

[Martyn]

Great thread! I just got back from a one nighter and drove into a fairly rugged area with my trailer. When I got to the campsite I needed to turn around and back in to where I wanted the trailer. I drove down a hill to my right and then tried to back up.

The trailer keep sliding around on me and my tires kept slipping. After several tries I was just about to set the trailer brake, chock the wheels and disconnect and drive around and pull the trailer back up the hill from behind.

Now remember (and be nice) I'm a newbe towing offorad trailers. When I got out to set the trailer's parking brake, i quickly realized why I couldn't push the trailer back up the hill. In addition to electric brakes, my trailer also has surge brakes. Unless you flip a lever to block the surge brakes, when you push the trailer in reverse up a hill, you fully engage the trailer brakes. :oops:

Once disabling the surge brakes, I quite easily pushed the trailer up the hill and onto the flats. Gee, imagine that. I was just a little embarrassed to say the least.

You can list this under the don't side of the offroad trailers do's and don'ts.:shakin:

All the KK's I've seen have the hydraulic brake system. Yours has electric brakes and hydraulic, never heard of that before. Was that standard equipment??

The great thing about making mistakes is we learn way more from them than doing everything correctly. Over a few beers I'll share the screw ups I've made :)

[Tucson T4R]

All the KK's I've seen have the hydraulic brake system. Yours has electric brakes and hydraulic, never heard of that before. Was that standard equipment??

The great thing about making mistakes is we learn way more from them than doing everything correctly. Over a few beers I'll share the screw ups I've made :)


The Oz Kimberly Kampers have hydraulic systems but the US King Kamper versions have Dexter axles with electric brakes, coupled with a cable operated surge brake (off the piston in the Treg hitch). If you didn't attach the electric brakes, you would still have the mechanicaly actuated surge brakes. You also use the cable actuated mechanical brake as the parking brake.

I knew all this, but still let that knowledge hide away while I was freaking out trying to back up a lose hill in the middle of nowhere. :D

[Martyn]

The Oz Kimberly Kampers have hydraulic systems but the US King Kamper versions have Dexter axles with electric brakes, coupled with a cable operated surge brake (off the piston in the Treg hitch). If you didn't attach the electric brakes, you would still have the mechanicaly actuated surge brakes. You also use the cable actuated mechanical brake as the parking brake.

I knew all this, but still let that knowledge hide away while I was freaking out trying to back up a lose hill in the middle of nowhere. :D

That's an interesting hybrid. The set up you have is usually for a mechanical handbrake actuated by cables. Aaron Whitaker who originally brought the KK's into the USA had recommended they change to an e brake system. I would have thought they would have used a cable handbrake rather than adapting their hydraulic braking system. Seems like a very expensive way to go, and not ideal for reversing as you found out!

My experience with mechanical override brakes is that they are fitted with cams inside the brake drums that fold inwards when the wheels rotate 1/4 turn backwards. This disengages the brakes and allows you to reverse.

I'd seriously consider doing away with the hydraulic portion of the system and modify it for cable handbrake use only.

[Tucson T4R]

That's an interesting hybrid. The set up you have is usually for a mechanical handbrake actuated by cables. Aaron Whitaker who originally brought the KK's into the USA had recommended they change to an e brake system. I would have thought they would have used a cable handbrake rather than adapting their hydraulic braking system. Seems like a very expensive way to go, and not ideal for reversing as you found out!

My experience with mechanical override brakes is that they are fitted with cams inside the brake drums that fold inwards when the wheels rotate 1/4 turn backwards. This disengages the brakes and allows you to reverse.

I'd seriously consider doing away with the hydraulic portion of the system and modify it for cable handbrake use only.


I'll try to post up a picture of the set up later today. There is no hydraulic system at all in this set up. The cable actuated parking brake is also used as the surge brake. The slide cylinder in the treg hitch that probably actuated the hydraulic system in OZ, now only pushes on a mechanical lever that pulls the parking brake cables, acting as a surge brake.

There is a metal stop that can be pivoted into place around the slide cylinder to disable the surge brakes when backing up.

This system is separate from the Dexter electric brakes installed on each wheel.

[Tucson T4R]

I'll try to post up a picture of the set up later today. There is no hydraulic system at all in this set up. The cable actuated parking brake is also used as the surge brake. The slide cylinder in the treg hitch that probably actuated the hydraulic system in OZ, now only pushes on a mechanical lever that pulls the parking brake cables, acting as a surge brake.

There is a metal stop that can be pivoted into place around the slide cylinder to disable the surge brakes when backing up.

This system is separate from the Dexter electric brakes installed on each wheel.


Here are a few pictures of the system:

Parking brake on:

http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m125/bgarland40/Chain%20Tank%2007/ChainTank07040.jpg

Parking brake disabled for towing with surge enabled:

http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m125/bgarland40/Chain%20Tank%2007/ChainTank07042.jpg

Surge disable lever open:

http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m125/bgarland40/Chain%20Tank%2007/ChainTank07041.jpg

Underneath shot:

http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m125/bgarland40/Chain%20Tank%2007/ChainTank07043.jpg

Let me know if that makes sense now. :-)

[Martyn]

Here are a few pictures of the system:

Parking brake on:

http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m125/bgarland40/Chain%20Tank%2007/ChainTank07040.jpg

Parking brake disabled for towing with surge enabled:

http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m125/bgarland40/Chain%20Tank%2007/ChainTank07042.jpg

Surge disable lever open:

http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m125/bgarland40/Chain%20Tank%2007/ChainTank07041.jpg

Underneath shot:

http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m125/bgarland40/Chain%20Tank%2007/ChainTank07043.jpg

Let me know if that makes sense now. :-)

OK I get it.

They have used a mechanical override Treg Coupler to actuate the handbrake. But that doesn't make any sense to me at all when you have electric brakes. If you have the lock out open so the piston actuates while you are driving you are actually using two systems at the same time, the electric and the mechanical override.

I'd advise you to put the tab in places so the piston can not actuate when your driving. Use the mechanical handbrake as a parking aid, and the electric brakes when driving.

It looks like they set it up this way because Treg only makes the handbrake on the Hydraulic and Override couplers. They do not make a handbrake option for their regular coupler.

[Tucson T4R]

OK I get it.

They have used a mechanical override Treg Coupler to actuate the handbrake. But that doesn't make any sense to me at all when you have electric brakes. If you have the lock out open so the piston actuates while you are driving you are actually using two systems at the same time, the electric and the mechanical override.

I'd advise you to put the tab in places so the piston can not actuate when your driving. Use the mechanical handbrake as a parking aid, and the electric brakes when driving.

It looks like they set it up this way because Treg only makes the handbrake on the Hydraulic and Override couplers. They do not make a handbrake option for their regular coupler.


See, this is why I love these exchanges! I didn't really get any education on the how to utilize this system when I purchased it. I wasn't sure if I should have the surge system enabled with the electric brakes or not. Now with your input, it makes a lot more sense. If you didn't have a brake controller you could just use the surge brake system. With an electronic brake controller enabled, I will now leave the surge system disabled and only use the parking brake portion. Not having the two systems competing makes perfect sense.

Thanks for your insight.

[Martyn]

See, this is why I love these exchanges! I didn't really get any education on the how to utilize this system when I purchased it. I wasn't sure if I should have the surge system enabled with the electric brakes or not. Now with your input, it makes a lot more sense. If you didn't have a brake controller you could just use the surge brake system. With an electronic brake controller enabled, I will now leave the surge system disabled and only use the parking brake portion. Not having the two systems competing makes perfect sense.

Thanks for your insight.

Brad

The Dexter braked hubs that you have are really only designed to have a mechanical hand brake, it's not meant to be used as a surge system.

If you had an electric brake failure your system gives you a back up but I don't think the intent was to use them together.

Martyn

[Tucson T4R]

Brad

The Dexter braked hubs that you have are really only designed to have a mechanical hand brake, it's not meant to be used as a surge system.

If you had an electric brake failure your system gives you a back up but I don't think the intent was to use them together.

Martyn

Good to know. I have a Prodigy brake controller that works very well, so I will keep the surge system disabled from now on. Thanks.

[Martyn]

Good to know. I have a Prodigy brake controller that works very well, so I will keep the surge system disabled from now on. Thanks.

It may be worth an e mail to KK to see how they envisioned this system working. From my perspective one should be for driving and the other for parking.

[Tucson T4R]

It may be worth an e mail to KK to see how they envisioned this system working. From my perspective one should be for driving and the other for parking.

OK, I have an engineering contact at KK. I'll run it by him and let ya know what they say.

[Tucson T4R]

It may be worth an e mail to KK to see how they envisioned this system working. From my perspective one should be for driving and the other for parking.

I talked with KK today. They agree that the surge should be disabled unless needed as a back up to the electric brakes. Normal I should just use the electric brakes for towing and the mechanical for parking.

[Martyn]

I talked with KK today. They agree that the surge should be disabled unless needed as a back up to the electric brakes. Normal I should just use the electric brakes for towing and the mechanical for parking.

Nice to know we are in agreement. I'd be hiding my head in shame and making up excuses if their answer had been different :wings:

[Tucson T4R]

Nice to know we are in agreement. I'd be hiding my head in shame and making up excuses if their answer had been different :wings:

I doubt that you will ever have to go there. :wings: