Towable Sailboat "Trailer Sailing"

[expeditionswest]

Well, all this talk of sailing and the fact that Steph is gone for the weekend has left me researching towable sailboats. I focused on several that could actually sail the Gulf (though that depends on the season and the sailer)

Catalina 18'
http://www.catalinayachts.com/images/gallery/07870012.jpg

The 25' (http://www.catalinayachts.com/yachts.cfm?act=model&id=17) is nice too and starts with some basic amenities like stove, head, etc.

Potter 19' (http://www.westwightpotter.com/potter-19/)
http://www.westwightpotter.com/images/exterior/p19-exterior-06-800.jpg
You can get a "Baja" trailer with it too.

Fun stuff!

[paulj]

There are a couple of Baja trip descriptions on the NW Potter site:
http://www.nwpotters.org/priortrips.html
Probably more on other clubs.
There's an Alaska Inside passage trip at
http://www.wingo.com/billsvoyage/Alaska1.html

[VikingVince]

I found this article informative in terms of general pros and cons or trailering

http://www.sailnet.com/collections/articles/index.cfm?articleid=caldwell0032

(Darn...the above addressisn't going to the right article...so just type "trailering" into the search box and read the article by Caldwell)

I too have been spending lotta time on this...a new world!!! LOL
Check out this cool MacGregor 26...I know nothing about sailboats/sailing...and at this point in time I'm as interested in the interior as its sailing capabilities, which I know nothing about anyway...LOL...pathetic I know...I like this one though


http://www.macgregorsailboats.com/macgregor-26-sailboat-interior.html

Yesterday I went into LA to look at a 26 foot sailboat in Redondo Beach Marina...the owner wants to rent it out as as apartment for a year for $625/month!!!...so I went to look at it just for the hell of it...it was kinda run down and didn't have much more room than my Flippac!!!!

[paulj]

I couldn't quite figure out what was special about the Potter 'baja' trailer. They talked about larger wheels, wider track, and the boat riding lower (in Spanish, 'mas bajo'). This all seemed to make the trailer and load more stable, and possibly easier to launch. I don't know about it being more suitable for rough roads.

Given my experience with towing a boat on Vancouver Island gravel roads, I am somewhat interested in the question of what it would take to make a boat trailer suitable for rough roads. Increasing tire size helps, but you have to address fender and boat clearance. The axle can be repositioned to give more clearance (e.g. below the springs rather than on top), but then the trailer has to be backed further into the water to float the boat. I wonder if there is some sort of adjustable trailer suspension - high for road use, low for launching.

At the very least one should pay attention to the load rating of the tires.

Another consideration is how the trailer supports the boat, since on rough roads the boat will be bouncing around quite a bit. Gear in the boat also has to be secured well.

Road dust is also an issue. 50 miles on a gravel road will leave quite a coating of dust on a trailered boat.

Trailer electrics can be a headache.

Especially around salt water, the extra cost of a galvanized trailer is worth it.

Sometimes it is helpful to have a tow hitch on the front of your truck - for maneuvering the trailer in tight conditions.

paulj

[Jonathan Hanson]

The Sea of Cortez is a fantastic sailing area. I owned a 21-foot sloop for a few years, and sailed around the mainland side. Raced in the San Carlos to Guaymas rally, and had a blast even if the real contenders were all over the horizon while I was still adjusting sail trim.

A perfect Sea of Cortez boat is the Montgomery 17 or 23. They were actually designed for those waters by Lyle Hess, I believe. The West Wight Potters are also very capable boats.

I'm in the early stages of thinking about building an open sailboat suitable for beach camping and exploration in Mexico. This one:

http://www.classicmarine.co.uk/details.asp?Name=Tirrik

. . .is tempting. Light weight, speaks to my Norse heritage, very seaworthy. You could haul it up the beach to avoid squalls.

[paulj]

The Sea Pearl 21 that I described on the other sailboat thread had two standing lug sails, synthetic fabric but in a traditional tanbark color. It was a bit longer (21 ft) but about the same beam. Not quite a double ender, but close.

While it could rest comfortably on the beach, at 600 lbs I could not haul it out of the water, or shove it back in if the tide was out. When camping in tidal waters I experimented with placing an anchor in deeper water, and using a pulley system to pull the boat in and out.

paulj

[Jonathan Hanson]

Paulj, the Sea Pearl is a beautiful boat! And I miss the Small Boat Journal, although the newer Good Old Boat is a pretty decent magazine.

I think the 250 pounds of the Tirrik (with sail rig) might be manageable for beaching with two people. My fully loaded sea kayak exceeded 150 pounds frequently.

Beachability, to coin a word, would be handy in spots where no sheltered anchorage was available, a common situation in the Sea of Cortez. Otherwise if hit by a chubasco the old adage applies: "When in danger or in doubt, hoist the sails and bugger off out!"

[VikingVince]

Jonathan...that sounds like some very cool adventures sailing around the Sea of Cortez...that's something I'd like to do, especially after just having spent time on her shores...I just have to learn how to sail and buy a sailboat:exclaim: Re buying a boat - I've been surprised to learn how relatively afforadable a 26' sailboat is...I mean, it's about the same amount of money I have in my Tacoma and mods. And building your own?...that looks very cool...but I think a little beyond me

[expeditionswest]

Jonathan,

I knew you would come back with some cool little sailboat ideas. I really like that Montgomery 23.

[expeditionswest]

Any thoughts on the MacGregor 26?
http://www.macgregor26.com/genoa_beating_windy_pt_fermin_large.jpg

http://www.macgregor26.com/interior_looking_forward_large.jpg

[durango_60]

I'll preface my thoughts with the fact that i am a snob when it comes to sailboats, and that I have never sailed a Macgregor 26.

My belief is that you can't have the best of both worlds. Any boat that advertises itself as a good sailboat and powerboat obviously has tradeoffs. I do not beleve that a flat planing hull is capable of being an effecient sailor, unless you are talking about a racing skiff such as a Aussie 125, but this is surely not the target market for the macgregor. But putting the snob aside for a moment, there have surely been moments on the water where I wanted to throw down the outboard and go back to port making 25 knots. :hehe:

[expeditionswest]

Another question.......shouldn't one be real sure you have your 4x4 expedition vehicle parked in a very safe location while down in Baja? I don't think you would want to just drop your boat at some desolate beach and go out cruising for a week.


Good point. You would want a partner to help you. Someone to drive with you down to San Felipe or Rocky Point and drop you off.

[durango_60]

A Catalina 22 is an excellent boat to get started on. In most areas you could find a fleet that has races on Wednsdays or Sundays. Even if racing isn't your thing, it is the best way to refine your skills and really learn how to optimize your boat handling quickly.

[Jonathan Hanson]

There is a whole class of very affordable trailerable sailboats in the 20- to 26-foot range, typified by such brands as Catalina, O'Day, San Juan, and others I forget. Built by the thousands over the last few decades. They're all excellent for learning, and capable of Sea of Cortez use with care. The MacGregors were sort of at the bottom of this list quality-wise, at least in the eighties and nineties. Not sure about the new ones.

Any way, if I wanted to do serious sailing exploration of the gulf, with the confidence to ride out a squall on a long crossing, I'd want to step up in seaworthiness a bit. The Montgomery and Sea Pearl both fit here, as well as several Cape Dory models, and the Alberg 22. Maybe Cal and S2 if I'm remembering them well. Pacific Seacraft, certainly, but now you're in a different league, and even their Flicka 20 is barely trailerable (too heavy).

[VikingVince]

I went to the LA Boatshow yesterday. It was a bit disappointing in that it was 99 percent speedboats, power cruising yachts, and inflatables. There were only 2 sailboats there over 16' but one of them was the MacGregor 26M...their new model...which I wanted to see. I watched the entire 45 minute video they had playing and spent time in the cabin. Overall, I was disappointed in it...like choosing and building a offroad rig, there are tradeoffs in a boat like this. Here are my impressions: (I can see why Jonathan would put it in the "low end" category)
Pros: (keep in mind I'm not a sailor)
---affordable at $20K, including the trailer...BUT...that doesn't include lot of options you would expect to be included like the head, dark blue hull like in the pics,two 12 gallon fuel tanks, disc brakes for trailer, cockpit seat cushions, etc etc...the list is long and all these "options" are 200-500 bucks each.
---the video emphasized how easily and quickly it comes about and the addition of a rotating mast making it fast...the video looked convincing but I'm not a sailor
---a fully retractable daggerboard looks like an advantage for going into shallow water or sailing right up onto a sandy beach (from the video) but again, I don't have a frame of reference/comparison
---you can easily lower the main mast with a hand winch for going under bridges...Is this not the case with other 20-26 foot sailboats?

Cons:
---I guess I won't be trailering this boat or others like it with my current rig. The boat is 2550 lbs empty and the trailer is 710 lbs. That's 3260 lbs empty which puts me way over GCWR (7100?) with my truck fully loaded now at about 5200llbs...this was surprising.
---the cabin is not very livable...but then maybe it wasn't designed to be...I can't stand up (I'm 6'4" tho)...there's no frig and really no decent space to put a 50L offroad frig like many of us have...no shower although there's an deck shower option...and the main bed is certainly not inviting to "active" adults:ylsmoke: and my feet bang into the interior hardware of the twin rudders...quite frankly, I think I'd be more comfortable in my Flippac for a few weeks if I set up my outside shower/potty!

OVERALL: my impression is that this boat is good/"plenty of boat" for beginners like myself as well as getting out for long weekends...just crashing in the cabin and dealing with the limitations. I guess you have to go to a 30 ft+ sailing yacht to get more livability in the cabin...but then you lose trailerability.

This portable, inflatable catamaran ($5500) caught my eye...the Happy Cat Light...everything goes into 3 bags weighing about 200 pounds...and it easily holds 4 adults...payload a little under 1500 pounds.
www.boatsinbags.com

[mcvickoffroad]

Vince, It sounds like you are well on your way to figuring this out!

Can you give us a better idea of
1- Where you plan to sail you boat (specific or types of bodies of water and Destinations.
2- How long you plan to stay on the boat at one time (will it be 3-4 days or 2-3 weeks)

You are right about the trade offs. If you want a stand up shower inside the boat you need a boat that you can stand up in but that will usually limit you to over 30' then it becomes more difficult to trailer and unload/load yourself.

So far it sounds like your looking for:
Easy trailerability, maybe even rugged for baja washboards!
Light weight to be towed
Comfortable living space
Easy to handle with one or two people
Beachable (low draft with a centerboard and reletively flat bottom)
Affordable

It also sounds like you want someting that will be comfortable and seaworthy for the Sea of Cortez, inland lakes and possibly the California coast.

Any other requirements?

[mcvickoffroad]

Vince,

Another thought,
As you are looking around for used boats check with marinas and boat yards in your area. Some have auctions every few years to clear their facilities of delinquent or abandoned boats. If you have an idea of what your looking for and be careful of not getting something that beyond your refurbishing skills you can often get a great deal.

Also if you get close to purchasing a used boat let us know and we'll give you a list of common problem areas to inspect before the purchase, sort of like doing your own survey!

[Scenic WonderRunner]

You guys are getting me all excited about sailboats again! We used to rent them for about $100 a day in Honolulu (32' to 34' footers). We would get about 8 friends together and split the cost.........then head out for a full day of sailing off Waikiki and Diamond Head! What wonderful memories! The maint. and slip fees have always kept me from getting a sailboat. But I never dreamed of getting a smaller boat that fits on a trailer and sits in my driveway or in storage, rather than at a slip, IN the water. HUM...........!

......If I keep signing up for off road exploration websites.........I'm going to have to get a REAL job!:eek:

[VikingVince]

Hey Brian!

Well...I think I have two incompatible sets of criteria going on here but this is what I was thinking. (You and others can no doubt tell me if this exists)

Situation:
1. I live in a cool little mountain communty (a world removed from la la land which I like but also a little isolated from the "scene") a little over an hour from all the marinas south of Los Angeles. I would like an "apartment" in L.A....meaning I'm thinking of buying a boat as my apartment that I could stay in a few days of the week ($400 slip fee more or less would be okay and cheaper than a regular apartment)...I'm aware that there are liveaboard requirements etc and that marinas only alot a small percent of their slips to liveaboards but I don't think I'd run into a problem just being there 40 percent of the time. Sooo...it would be nice if the boat cabin was more liveable than the MacGregor 26 I just looked at.
2. Now this is going forward into the future...but the thought occurred to me to rent out my house and live in the boat fulltime...might be fun for a a couple years or so....who knows?...maybe longer...I could always take off in the boat too once I learn to sail!!!! (minor detail) :ylsmoke: But I think this would require a more livable cabin than a parttime apartment.

Criteria:
1. Trailerability would be nice
2. Can be sailed by one or two people
3. Comfortable living space
4. Boat is able to handle....hmmmm...I don't know about this one yet but certainly the Sea of Cortez comes to mind, the CA coast...sail to Hawaii? Fiji? I dunno...that's beyond my frame of reference at this point.

So I guess the bottom line comes to: Is there a sailboat that is comfortable to live on, affordable, and still trailerable? From what I've learned so far, I surmise that if I gave up trailerability, the livablility factor goes up fairly easily and quickly.

And yes, there was one yachtbroker at the show...talked to him quite a while...looked at his listings etc. He had several used 33-36 foot Hunters in the $30-40K range. I briefly described what I was thinking of doing and he said I needed to go over 30 feet (of course that's all he was selling!!!) and give up trailering.

So that kinda sums up my latest tangest...hey, if you're alive, LIVE!!!

[mcvickoffroad]

Cool!
That's good info and food for thought.

[Jonathan Hanson]

Vince, you're right: trailerability is going to trip you up. For the $20,000 of that MacGregor you could buy any number of used 27- to 30-foot full-keel (i.e. standing headroom) sailboats that would be suitable for compact living aboard and fully capable of ocean passages. But not trailerable except by a very big truck.

Anything under 27 feet or with shoal draft (centerboard) is unlikely to have full standing headroom. The 20-foot Flicka does, amazingly, but it's a deep full keel and heavy displacement.

What you really need is a longship! Shallow draft, easy sail handling - you just need another 20 or so Norsemen to handle the oars.

[Seeker]

I know the focus of this thread has been in the portability of the boats but I want to bring to the foreground a couple of safety issues.

You want to make sure your new boat is seakindly. For a smaller craft, this usually means a bit of weather helm built in to her to help ensure safety, and a bit more in her beam to add to her stability.

Make sure you get more than one set of sails. At least a mainsail with more than one reef point, a fore-sail, and a storm sail (potentially a set) - and a roller-furler is absolutely not a replacement for a storm Jib. A marine radio and a flare gun are also a must.

Take a coastal navigation course. Know how to use a Coast Pilot, familiarize yourself with Chart #1, and the "rules of the road". Learn what mean lower-low water is and why you should know it. Know, in no uncertain terms, how to read a nautical chart and go no where w/o the applicable ones.

Too many people get a boat, "just get out there", and have a bad experience that permanently turns them off from boating. The best way to avoid this situation is, much like we do with our trucks, learn everything we can about how to do things, and make sure we do them safely. The great thing about sail boats is that people have been sailing almost as long as they've been writing so there is a wealth of information out there.

That out of the way.

Don't rule out your twin-hulled friends. Catamarans can be very sea-kindly, sail quite well to weather, are light weight, can be exhilarating, and can have a very (very) shallow draft. They can be less expensive and, if you're willing to re-use your camping gear by lashing it to the deck, you can still camp just about anywhere you could in a mono-hull with a cabin. There are Catamarans (and tri-hulls) out there with cabins but I'm not sure how trailerable they are.

As to the seaworthiness of these crafts... There is a young Norwegian who recently sailed from his home country and round Cape Horn in a 27' Ketch appropriately named: Berserk. With a good skipper, much is possible.

And if anyone is looking for a crewmember to work a "coffee grinder" on the upcoming Newport to Ensenada race, I'd love to volunteer. :)

[bigreen505]

I'll toss in some thoughts, though be aware that I have very little experience and I'm a snob.

That out of the way, I would not buy a Macgregor (there is a reason they are called Kmart boats) and I would not expect it to hold together in big wind. A Cal 20 is a pretty small boat, very stable, can be built up to handle big breezes, and can be purchased reasonably inexpensively.

Stop thinking sailboats are inexpensive because you can buy one for $3k or build one yourself. Don't underestimate the amount of time or money required in either case. If you are looking for used boat prices, find the most expensive boat in the class you are looking. You can pretty much expect to pay that much by the time you are done fixing up your "bargain." That bit of wisdom holds whether you are looking for a cabin cruiser or a skiff. Take a few minutes to flip through Layline (www.layline.com), APS (www.apsltd.com) or similar sites to get an idea of what things cost. Synthetic which rope is just middle of the range sailing line.

For those of you who think that the light weight expedition concept sounds cool what about getting a Hobie or Nacra with a tramp tent and go island hopping? Your costs, both initial and long term are much lower than a keel boat. The down side is that if you turtle a cat your pretty screwed, though a mast float may prevent it.

If bringing a little boat like a Laser or double handed dinghy is an option for day sailing from a beach camp, you can build a trailer where the boat rests on a trampoline tied to supports with doubled up 5/16" or thicker shock cord (let me know if you actually want details). The boat will move up and down a couple feet when you combine the trampoline with the trailer suspension. The downside is the boat sits very high up in the air compared with a high end trailer that does not use a solid axel (Rapide, Pronto, Westmersea, etc.).

So now that I have given my unsolicited rant, what should you look for in a boat? We'll start with size, it has to be big enough not to sent you and your travel companions (wife, kids, dog, cat, sheep, friends) to Dr. Phil, however smaller is cheaper. A boat with a deep, heavy keel wil be more stable and probably point higher, but also requires deeper water and a taller trailer. A swing keel might be a compromise. If possible, consider a boat with a strong local racing fleet as that is a guaranty of people to help you with problems, repairs, etc.

How far down the rabbit hole would you like to go today?

[bigreen505]

Well, all this talk of sailing and the fact that Steph is gone for the weekend has left me researching towable sailboats. I focused on several that could actually sail the Gulf (though that depends on the season and the sailer)
Fun stuff!

Scott,

Catalinas are generally pretty solid and well thought out. I raced on both a Capri 22 and a Catalina 25, and while neither impressed me from a sailing view point, the Catalina seemed like a nice cruising boat.

Benateau makes some nice boats worth considering too. They used to make (perhaps still do) a small twin rudder keel boat that seemed pretty cool.

[mcvickoffroad]

http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/Forest/2727/trailersubweb/trailer_home.html

Link to a page on trailer sailboats. Did not look through all of it but this guy essentially covers the process he went through in finding and chooising a boat.

[expeditionswest]

Wow, those Beneteau boats are very nice...

[calamaridog]

My thoughts on the larger sailboats is size and weight. You going to tow it with a fully loaded expedition Tacoma? I'm wondering what the tongue weight and total weight are...

I don't see the need for the larger boat but maybe I'm missing the point. You have all your portable cooking and camping apparatus in the truck. You don't need a galley, etc. on the boat and wouldn't leave your truck parked on a beach overnight without anyone around.

Those Potter 15' and 19' are very interesting however...

[durango_60]

When I start looking for my trailer sailor I will seriously consider a Corsair folding trimaran. I crewed on a F31 in college and they are very well constructed, fun to sail, lightweight, minimal draft, and plenty of storage space. Check out www.corsairmarine.com

[expeditionswest]

My thoughts on the larger sailboats is size and weight. You going to tow it with a fully loaded expedition Tacoma? I'm wondering what the tongue weight and total weight are...


I was thinking more as an adventure alternative to the Tacoma. I would pull the boat down to the gulf with a larger vehicle and then sail for a few weeks or months.

In the meantime, I am looking into renting a (very small) sailboat here in Prescott this summer, and then lease a bigger boat this fall for a run out to Catalina. Kind of check things out and see if we like it.

[calamaridog]

Scott,

What a wonderful idea. Leasing a boat and sailing to Catalina will be fun and a good way to see if it is really worth pursuing.

When I was a kid, I spent many trips sailing to Catalina with my friend and his dad. When we would stay at Catalina, my buddy and I would canoe around the island and camp overnight. Now that was fun!

I haven't sailed anything larger than a Hobie Cat in about 18 years though:o

[mcvickoffroad]

Nice Photoshop:eek:

That reminds me of about two years ago when Amy and I were in the Exuma Islands in the bahamas. We spend a few weeks on Farmers Cay and there was an 8 foot Tiger Shark in the area that would CHASE DINGHYS!!!

No Joke! This shark would chase dinghys around in the bay and bite their outboard motors:smileeek:

It never happened to us but a few people we met. Then a few days later during one of the local sailing races a local C-class Bahamian racing boat sank in about 15 feet of water. We dove in to help them re-surface the boat and all I remember is trying very hard to concentrate on the task while looking over my shoulder every other second! Never saw the shark and very thankful of that!

We did however get to see som large Lemon Sharks in the same area:o

So word to the wise, if you are ever in an anchorage don't clean your fish and throw the scraps overboard among all the boats. It attracts the predatory fish like sharks and big baracuda and then they tend to hang out in the area waiting for more! I was a little iritated by the boat that was tossing the scraps as it spoiled the swimming experience for the whole anchorage.

SHARKS KINDA FREAK ME OUT:smilies27

[expeditionswest]

Having swam with sharks in Florida, they can be quite intimidating. I am most concerned after spearing a fish. Then I dont have a loaded speargun and have a bleeding fish in my hands.

You know your alive then.

I will say that the Giant Barracuda are the most unnerving. They are so fast and sleek that they can swim right up to your head without you knowing. You turn and there they are, mouth open trying to decide if they can eat you or not...

http://www.expeditionswest.com/adventures/2004/florida/FloridaSpearfishing/images/DSC01920.jpg

[Scenic WonderRunner]

Caution!........Very Strange Sharks!

.....another one spotted!.....hehe

[bigreen505]

For those looking for a boat of the faster sort that can be easily taken to Baja or someplace else, check a Hoot (http://www.gohoot.com)!

http://gohoot.com/images/rig004.jpg

http://gohoot.com/images/rig006.jpg

http://gohoot.com/images/gallery05.jpg

All I can say is I am buying one as soon as I can get the cash to do so. Sailing is one of my passions and a single handed skiff that I can easily cartop and take with me is too cool to pass up! How cool would it be to bring one of these with you to Baja? I know the thread is really about live aboard boats, but this way you can camp on the beach and sail a skiff. Works for me.

[Scenic WonderRunner]

OK!

It's been a while since this thread has been active!

But I still want to do this one day!

I've recently seen some really kewl Baja Sailing Expeditions! Looks REALLY Fun!.....I think I would need an Off~Road dirt bike at least!


http://www.baja-haha.com/


How can I do this with my little Toyota 4Runner>?!!.......OR.......Other.

A MacGregor (http://www.macgregor26.com/)?


http://www.macgregor26.com/index/genoa_beating_windy_pt_fermin_large.jpg



(Attn. Wil............I was able to post this pic from the MacGregor website. But I can't post up IMG Pics from Photobucket!)




.

[Andrew Walcker]

When I start looking for my trailer sailor I will seriously consider a Corsair folding trimaran. I crewed on a F31 in college and they are very well constructed, fun to sail, lightweight, minimal draft, and plenty of storage space. Check out www.corsairmarine.com

The F boats by Corsair are very nice, but even used will be near the 100K mark. You are insured of being one of the fastest sailboats in the water. The almas are very light weight and since they fold, you can store one in a regular width birth.

My dad and I actually own a Stiletto 27' foot catamaran that is fully collapsible and can trailer. We keep it down in Mission Bay since it sees a lot of use:) The local Corsairs won't mess with us anymore since we can usually smoke them as long as it not an upwind beat. :gunt: The plus side is that we regularly take the boat from San Diego to Catalina with no problems, can cruise w/ a 9 hp Honda 4 stroke at 13 knots all day long and the best part, you can find them used and in good shape in the 20k range. I had a friend last year that sold his Stiletto 23' and is now living full time in the Carribean on a 45' Fountain Pajot!

http://www.stilettocatamarans.com/
http://stiletto.wildjibe.com/

[Andrew Walcker]

Having swam with sharks in Florida, they can be quite intimidating. I am most concerned after spearing a fish. Then I dont have a loaded speargun and have a bleeding fish in my hands.

You know your alive then.


A trick from the native spear fisherman when I lived in the Marshall Islands was to tie 20 feet of line to your waist and tow a large plastic bin or bucket behind you. When you speared the fish take it straight to the top and dump it in the bucket.

Old Marshallese saying, "It's always the shark you don't see that eats you!"

[Scenic WonderRunner]

Would you buy this boat?

http://www.hereintown.net/~jsiehler/Tradewinds/Tradewinds.html

A Luger Tradewinds 26............


And.............

Would you tow it down to San Felipe or other, nearby..........
....and juz cruise?

What if you could pick one up for as little as $5,000.................including dual axle trailer!!?


http://www.hereintown.net/~jsiehler/Tradewinds/img3.gif

[Ursa Minor]

...could be a decent little boat, but:

What drives worth in a 20+ year old boat isn't what you buy, but what you'll need to replace to make it seaworthy. If there's rot in any of the marine ply or balsa, it's chainsaw & landfill it. Same for any blisters or damage to hull/deck/mast. Engine, sails, rigging, hardware also add up very quick, the usual joke is exponential to length, and Lugar has been closed for 20 years, so when the odd fitting goes (and they will) you're looking at custom work. There are no sailboat junkyards.

The other thing that impacts used boat prices is the reputation - both build quality as well has how it sails. It may look ok but not go to windward with that swing keel for example. I'd definitely want to see it towed, launch & sail it, but for $5K I doubt the seller will bother. A tough negotiator would go see it, if you like it then talk to his spouse a week later and offer to haul it away. :)

This is probably at least a 3500 pound tow, including trailer & boat & equipment, you'd might want to check the trailer out pretty well before heading to Baja - it's tires, brakes & bearings that go here in SoCal.

For me, at 27 feet it's sorta big for pocket cruising (hard to tow or beach it) but light for the open ocean given the trailerable part. On a nice day, you'd be good for Catalina. On the other hand, nothing tightens the ol' bowels more than clawing off a lee shore in a chubasco when your anchor dragged, the prop's wrapped and it's pitch dark. Ain't no coasties in Mexico listening for your call...

No, for me this one looks better for inland lakes. Like most things though, with alternate sailing experience you could have a diamond in the rough!

cheers
John

[Scenic WonderRunner]

What>?!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If it were that bad...................?

Nobody would Ever Buy a Boat................!:(





.

[Sojourn]

I am suprised that no one has mentioned Hunter trailerables.

http://www.sailboatowners.com/classified/results.tpl

However, as a former trailer sailor, I have yet to see a water ballast boat that would standup to off shore conditions(the Gulf of California is a big place). The rigging is too light, not enough ballast and usually if the cabin is large enough to spend any time in it, it sets too high in the water. Which make them tough to sail in anything but the calmest conditions. Simply put they are very "tender", they are designed for protected bays and small lake sailing. With that said, they is nothing more rewarding than sailing a well built boat in conditions that it was designed for.

What bliss to be in the cockpit with the sun and the warm breeze on one's skin, just watching the sea, and the sky and the sails...

- Sir Francis Chichester

For beach exploring, my money is on a roll up inflatable large enough to handle a 15hp outboard.

20821

[24HOURSOFNEVADA]

I've enjoyed this thread.

[Ursa Minor]

If it were that bad...................?
Nobody would Ever Buy a Boat................!:(
.................................................. ..............

no, no, no...it's not that it's that bad (worst day on the water is better than the best day at the office methinks) but buying a trailer sailboat capable of a week long trip in Baja...the Lugar might not be the boat to buy @ $5K for that trip.

There's a West Wight Potter down in IB on craigslist san diego under $2000 this moment. That's a nice little boat from a company still in business, good for light cruising, Baja even if done with a eye out for the weather. You can pop it in Mission Bay for fun or to build experience. A new one will run you ~10K or so.

[kerry]

I've got a 23' Macgregor Venture Newport. Paid $3k for it with a double axle trailer. It's way more pleasing to the eye than the other Macregors. It's cutter rigged with a bowsprit and clubfooted staysail. It draws about a foot and a half with the keel up.
I've also got a Ranger 33 but I wanted a trailerable boat for places like the Baja.

[Nullifier]

Personally I am really into the Sea pearl 21 units from Marnine Concepts. These little boats are based on an old Herreshoff design and are incredible little boats. True yacht quality that can go anywhere. They can be towed by a 4 cyl car no problem and hang with any small boat on the water. They come in a mono hull standard however can be ordered as a trimeran.

Ours is a mono hull and we have sailed it for 7 years now. No matter where we go with it we are always stopped by yachters saying man I wish I had one of those. I kbow several owners and they had triailered them up north to the north channel and one even was sent down to patagonia for a sailing expedition.

They cxan comfortable seat 6 and you can even get a camping cabin that can sleep 2 on the mono hull if your in sleeping bags.

Here is a link to the site and some of my pics.

www.marine-concepts.com sea pearl 21 (www.marine-concepts.com)
sailing the Sp 21 with gps stats (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFlDOTvm6zM&feature=related)
sp 21 tri sailing (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fH9kqLyHh0&feature=related)

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b318/nullifierx/sailing/IMG_0171.jpg
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b318/nullifierx/sailing/IMG_0173.jpg
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b318/nullifierx/sailing/IMG_0179.jpg
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b318/nullifierx/sailing/P4212017.jpg
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b318/nullifierx/sailing/P4212034.jpg
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b318/nullifierx/sailing/P4212039.jpg
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b318/nullifierx/sailing/P4212040.jpg
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b318/nullifierx/sailing/IMG_0315.jpg

[paulj]

I had a Sea Pearl 21 when I lived in Chicago 20 years ago. It had tanbark colored lug sails. I towed it with a 4 cyl Trooper II, and sailed locally, a bit in Ontario (Tamagami), and once towed it out to British Columbia. On the return leg of that trip, we motored on Yellowstone Lake. It was nice boat, but I still have mixed feels about boat trailers. On the west coast trip I had 3 flats on the trailer. Trailer bearings and lights also required quite a bit of maintenance.

[Nullifier]

I had a Sea Pearl 21 when I lived in Chicago 20 years ago. It had tanbark colored lug sails. I towed it with a 4 cyl Trooper II, and sailed locally, a bit in Ontario (Tamagami), and once towed it out to British Columbia. On the return leg of that trip, we motored on Yellowstone Lake. It was nice boat, but I still have mixed feels about boat trailers. On the west coast trip I had 3 flats on the trailer. Trailer bearings and lights also required quite a bit of maintenance.


I would agree that trailers in general are a P.I.T.A. but with some newer and better tech you would be surprised how much less maintanence you will have. As far as tires it is tuff issue since it is hard to find good quality small trailer tires.

[paulj]

I realized after the west coast trip that I needed heavier duty tires. I upped the plys and diameter shortly before selling.

Besides the 2000+ miles each way, that trip included a good stretch of gravel, crossing Vancouver Island to Fair Harbor on Kyokut Inlet. It was on the return of that gravel stretch that I had the first flat.

[Mickldo]

Wow, those Beneteau boats are very nice...

I had to do some work on a Beneteau 41 the other day, very nice boats.

I have always been more into power boats but after being on this Beneteau I have been thinking a decent sailboat would be better for long range expedition use than the power boat, purely from a running costs point of view.

But as this thread has been exploring, sail boats have limitations when it comes to trailering them.

I have been exploring different ideas to get the expedition boat I want but to keep the running costs down.

The areas I want to travel in are full of shallow reefs, rockbars and sand bars. Because I build boats (see my sigline) I am leaning towards a plate alloy boat with a diesel inboard and sterndrive. The ones we build can be set up with all of the gear needed for long range expeditions and still be easily trailered.

I have been looking at displacement hulls too. Rather than cruising at 20knots and burning 20L/hr I could be doing 10knots and burn only 2L/hr. Having that ability to get out there fast if the weather starts closing in though is high on my priorities.

But then the other day at work the Steyr rep came in and he showed me the latest products Steyr do. They have just released the first production diesel/electric hybrid. Looks promising.

http://www.steyr-motors.com/products/pdf/hybrid.pdf

http://www.steyr-motors.com/index1.htm

http://www.mcintyre-equipment.com.au/steyr.html

http://www.frauscherboats.com/en.html

[whatcharterboat]

Hi Mick

About 10 years ago I started maintaining a 21' electric displacement hull for a client here in Noosa. Beautiful boat, in survey for 12 persons. The hull was like a mini Titanic. Real wine-glass with that classic fantail. Anyway it was driven by a very industrial Danfoss 36v 3hp motor. I know that doesn't sound like much but because of an electric motor's torque characteristics it was more than enough. It felt like the equivalent of a 15 or 20hp diesel. About 3 years ago the owner wanted to either update it or sell, So I did some research into this one.

startinhttp://viewer.zmags.com/showmag.php?mid=hggds#/page146/

You can either set it up as a straight electric or couple the small diesel to it. The electric motor runs @24V and is saltwater cooled and very efficient. The old motor was set up through a Curtis Speed Controller and if you tried to run it at full throttle (because of the displacement hull) the current would jump from the rated 70A@36v to a whopping 270A and trip the thermal reset on the controller. Displacement hulls have a set max speed based on their shape and length at the water line and they require an enormous amount of power to make them go even one knot faster.

Mate ,these systems are ideal for what you are describing. Super efficient and perfect for sneaking up on the Barra with lures. Absolutley silent. If they ever get these sliver panels happening, I can see one day they could be integrated into the sails for battery charging. The other plus for an electric motor in a sailboat is that you can use the batteries as keel ballast (assuming you have a full length Shoal draft keel and not a swing keel).

Talk to ya next week
John

[gary in ohio]

I kinda of like this towable.

[Mickldo]

Hi Mick

About 10 years ago I started maintaining a 21' electric displacement hull for a client here in Noosa. Beautiful boat, in survey for 12 persons. The hull was like a mini Titanic. Real wine-glass with that classic fantail. Anyway it was driven by a very industrial Danfoss 36v 3hp motor. I know that doesn't sound like much but because of an electric motor's torque characteristics it was more than enough. It felt like the equivalent of a 15 or 20hp diesel. About 3 years ago the owner wanted to either update it or sell, So I did some research into this one.

startinhttp://viewer.zmags.com/showmag.php?mid=hggds#/page146/

You can either set it up as a straight electric or couple the small diesel to it. The electric motor runs @24V and is saltwater cooled and very efficient. The old motor was set up through a Curtis Speed Controller and if you tried to run it at full throttle (because of the displacement hull) the current would jump from the rated 70A@36v to a whopping 270A and trip the thermal reset on the controller. Displacement hulls have a set max speed based on their shape and length at the water line and they require an enormous amount of power to make them go even one knot faster.

Mate ,these systems are ideal for what you are describing. Super efficient and perfect for sneaking up on the Barra with lures. Absolutley silent. If they ever get these sliver panels happening, I can see one day they could be integrated into the sails for battery charging. The other plus for an electric motor in a sailboat is that you can use the batteries as keel ballast (assuming you have a full length Shoal draft keel and not a swing keel).

Talk to ya next week
John

Hi John

Had to copy and paste the URL to get it to work but yes, very interesting. The Steyr rep was also the Vetus rep. We spent so long chatting about the Steyr motors we didn't get a chance to chat about the Vetus stuff. I'll have to have good look at the catalogue he left.

After posting last night here I did a bit more research and found a heap of other sites where they are doing hybrid boats. Lots of reading for me.

[Mickldo]

I kinda of like this towable.

Now that is the way. LOL

[whatcharterboat]

Hi Mick Yeah I stuffed the link up again.

There are tons of companies doing electric propulsion systems but only a couple offerring a diesel /electric hybrid setup. I've got plenty of brochures and pdfs when you come down in a few weeks if you want to see 'em. Of course it's easy to set up your own electric motor with diesel/petrol charging system (think Christie engineering). You could even set up a charging system from your truck to charge when on the road. Down side is you don't have the diesel and the electric on the same shaft in the event of a electric motor failure.

On our last trip to New Caledonia we made a towing generator out of a small Danfoss 12v motor in a gimbled weather proof box linked via 25 meters of braided rope to a reversed prop on a shaft. Good enough to run the fridge and the autopilot anyway. That would be another thought.

[whatcharterboat]

Sorry I know it's not a sailboat but>>

The areas I want to travel in are full of shallow reefs, rockbars and sand bars. Because I build boats (see my sigline) I am leaning towards a plate alloy boat with a diesel inboard and sterndrive. The ones we build can be set up with all of the gear needed for long range expeditions and still be easily trailered.

How does this grab you? If you want to tow something this size the Cruiser might struggle offroad especially up in the hot country. This one just came back from Fraser when I took the pic.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3272/2953648851_ebc2cc1e2e.jpg

[Mickldo]

Sorry I know it's not a sailboat but>>



How does this grab you? If you want to tow something this size the Cruiser might struggle offroad especially up in the hot country. This one just came back from Fraser when I took the pic.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3272/2953648851_ebc2cc1e2e.jpg

I originally (and still do) want a plate alloy boat. I have only just started sort of half thinking that maybe a sailing boat may be an option for me.

That boat is tiny compared with the ones we do at work and I tow with my cruiser now to the boat shows, boat tests, etc.

[whatcharterboat]

That boat is tiny compared with the ones we do at work and I tow with my cruiser now to the boat shows, boat tests, etc.

Mick. I'm sure they would be fine on the blacktop but how would you go in sand or hot country? I've seen Patrols struggle towing big vans offroad and the owners have gone to Canters and been really happy.

When we built boats at Noosa Cat for the SAS, the Army would come down and do the offroad trailer testing. Trailers were tri-axle with Army Landrover Defender wheels. The boats were 8 meter cats and they would just flog em out in the bush behind the Unimogs. Most fun I've ever had towing a boat. Actually it was the only time I've ever had fun in a Unimog. Haha. Guess when your not paying for the gas and damages > who cares.

BTW Have been looking at your boats more and more and haven't seen anything better anywhere. Certainly miles better than the one in the pic. I think it was about 21' but that's only a guess. Also I think the wheels on the trailer were 16" Landcruiser rims to give you an idea of scale.

[Mickldo]

John, I have started a separate thread to discuss my boat plans.

[/hijack]