Lightweight Expedition Options (Element, RAV4, Suzuki) [Archive]

Scott Brady

01-30-2006, 03:57 AM

For a few years now, I have been scheming a plan to drive a lightweight AWD across a classic domestic expedition route like the White Rim Trail or the Mojave Road, etc. to prove that it can be done successfully.

During my recent trip to Baja, my interest was piqued again when we came across a Honda Element at Mission San Borja.

Properly outfitted, I believe these vehicles can make expedition travel more accessible to the average driver, and greatly reduce the "cost of admission".

Several on this forum have well over $50,000 invested in their vehicles, which now get less than 15mpg (sometimes much less) when fully loaded.

I am certainly not proposing that a RAV4 is intended for extreme terrain or overly remote and unpredictable routes (especially with the potential for deep water crossings), but the concept is fun to consider and discuss.

And for those of you who are already skeptical, how many times have you been in a really remote place, feeling all proud and hard core, only to have a VW van putter by... :shakin:

So for the next few posts I am going to list the lightweight expedition options that are most appealing to me. Lets hear what you have to say... :box:

jeffryscott

01-30-2006, 04:23 AM

Well, I of course, am a fan of the Suzuki.

For one or two people, it certainly would have enough cargo room for a reasonable length of time. Extremely capable off-road with true ladder frame and 4-lo (well, not anymore, except the XL7) and relatively good gas mileage.

The Vitara and Grand Vitara are more modern counterparts to the Sidekick and have more creature comforts.

The Sidekick has more aftermarket support and can be had CHEAP. In fact, I am probably acquiring one that has a blown engine (my mom's) and am considering putting a VW diesel (1.6 either normally aspirated or Turbo) into it for a cost of about $1,500, which includes all the adapters from a company called ACME. This could give me well over 30 mpg, maybe even up to 40 from what I've read, and good power - especially torque for off-road.

I don't have time or money to tackle yet another project, but I'd rather keep it and fix it someday than see it donated and probably junked.

So, if anybody knows of a good VW diesel for cheap, email me.

Life_in_4Lo

01-30-2006, 04:23 AM

that one Grand Vitara looks like it has the goods to hang offroad in a small pkg.
I am not sure about the element but I think they use the Rav4 in AUS and EU for light trail duty dont they?

Scott Brady

01-30-2006, 04:59 AM

I have LOVED this vehicle since first introduced in 2003. I guess it appeals to the chromophobic in me, with plastic side panels, boxy shape, rubber floor and huge interior for the size.

I also like the fact that it is a Honda, engineered to be reliable and very economical to drive. That goes all the way down to the 10,000 mile oil changes and 100,000+ tune up cycles. The engine is also LEV-2, which isnt a bad thing at all.

So here are the great "elements" of the Element

1. $22k new, fully loaded AWD
2. Nice automatic trans (2.68:1 first) (without low-range, the auto is critical)
3. XM Radio (sweet)
4. IPOD plug (sweet)
5. Sleep in the back, looking up to the stars through a huge sunroof
6. 4.43 axle gearing
7. 24 mpg, 16 gallon tank= nearly a 400 mile range (21 city)
8. 77 cubic feet of cargo volume, a 2006 4Runner has 72!

Not so great and possible fixes
1. No traction control. This I dont understand, as ABS and EBD are there. CR-V gets traction control in 2005.
2. 7" or ground clearance: Can be addressed with coil-overs and taller (not wider) tires. 9" is not out of question with 215/85 tires.
3. Low hanging fuel tank. That is my biggest concern, and can be addressed with a skidplate.

Fellow adventurer (and acquaintance) Sid, from Nomad Explorer (http://www.nomad-explorer.com/)is using an Element as a lightweight expedition platform. Cool machine.

http://www.expeditionswest.com/equipment/SEMA_05/expedition/tuesday/IMG_1904.JPG

And our forum member PaulJ has a 2003 AWD E that he has used on several adventures. I have seen a few pictures of his trips, but cant seem to find them now.

Anyway, those are my thoughts on a very cool machine :D

paulj

01-30-2006, 06:18 AM

I have attached some photos of my Element setup for camping.

Honda sells a 'cabana' for use over the open tailgate. Some use it for camping, though it seems to work best as a beach changing cabana and sun shade.

Another tailgate enclosure option is a 'midsize campertop tent'. This is designed to enclose the tailgate of compact pickup with campertop. The Element's tailage is a bit narrower, and considerably taller. I modified my tent by adding a gray polytarp extension.

I have also experimented with various awnings, especially over the wide side doors. With appropriate spreader bars strapped to the roof rank the MSR Vistawing (a 7 pt wing tarp) is a good tension tarp. The Kelty Carport (large) also works. With both I have to pay attention to details to ensure that there is good rain drainage from the nearly flat part near the car.

There are several ways 2 people can sleep in an Element. All seats can be lowered to make a nearly flat surface covering most of the interior. The rear seats can be raised against the sides, or removed entirely, leaving a nearly flat floor. With the front seats shoved forward this floor is 6' long, 43" wide. With the tailgate down, the floor is another 18" long.

I have removed the rear seats, and replaced them with a wood and steel platform 4' long. There is about 9" of clearance under it, enough to store 8 gallon Rubbermaid boxes, and a full size spare (the stock spare is a compact one under the cargo floor). With a 2' extension on the tailgate, I get a full 6' of flat bed space. However in cool weather, I prefer leaving the tailgate closed, and lowering the front seat backs. Most of my camping gear fits on the front seat bottoms, on the dash, and in the footwells.

paulj

paulj

01-30-2006, 06:30 AM

Many of my recent trip photos are on my pbase gallery
http://www.pbase.com/paulj3

These trips include:
- Central British Columbia: along the Fraser River including High Bar Rd, Bella Coola (various decommissioned forestry roads), and Manning Prov. Park.

- American SW: Moab (including Long Canyon and La Sal Mtns), San Juans (camping above Telluride), S Utah, Sierra Nevadas)

- SE British Columbia: Kootenays and Rockies (including Kananaskis Country)

- Queen Charlotte Islands, in an 97 RAV4.

paulj

paulj

01-30-2006, 06:40 AM

Some other modifications that I've made to my Element include:

Cooper Discoverer ATR tires, 225/70/16 size (slight increase over stock)

Roof rack, homemade brackets from 1 1/2" aluminum angle, Yakima cross bars

Thule Sidekick cargo box

Homemade cargo platform; current version adapted from a hardware store aluminum step platform. Mostly used to store kitchen boxes off the ground at camp.

Tool and recovery gear storage in the spare tire well (don't need the compact spare with the full size spare under the sleeping platform).

The only that I've done to improve ground clearance (other than add 1/4" with the tire change) is learn how the suspension behaves over bumps, and especially over waterbars.

paulj

Scott Brady

01-30-2006, 01:39 PM

Great posts Paul :camping:

I have a few questions for you:

What has your real world MPG been?
How did the Element do in your snow run?

Oh, and great pictures by the way. That one of the "Element in the Mist" was great :)

Scenic WonderRunner

01-30-2006, 04:23 PM

Paul.....

Thanks for sharing!

I'm really enjoying your pics at your pic place! I need more time to go through and see them all. I started with southern Utah. I really like that area around Muley Point. One of your pics shows the trail below Muley Point. My attachment below is the WonderRunner down on this lower trail heading back to "John's Canyon".......as I am stopped to open a cow gate.....June 2004. I've also done the Mormon Immigrant Trail and Comb Ridge area. Just beautiful!

I want to camp out on Muley Point one night in the future.....my timing has not been right yet. The views are outstanding!

CLynn85

01-30-2006, 08:18 PM

I've always had a soft spot for the suzukis and smaller utes. Tried to get a couple friends with "lesser" SUV's to go out on trips with us when only the occasional use of 4wd is necessary but to no avail.

I personally think it'd be fun to take a "light" suv out on a trail, assuming it had some decent tires, and a low range would be a plus. I think it'd be a nice challenge. Maybe to prove a point, maybe to promote awareness and get others into exploring the backcounty a bit more, providing a better reason to own a cute-ute than to "see over other cars".

I remember when the kia sportages came out, few years before I got my license, I wanted one bad, with a small lift and mud terrains, I have no idea why, but I really wanted one....

Another plus with the light utes is the shorter wb compared to most of ya'll that are running trucks and full size suv's.

I do however, despise the element. Perhaps it's the styling, and the fact that they don't paint half of the plastic body panels. Coupled with the worst beakover angle I've seen on an "suv".

Wow, after reading that most of those are completely disjointed and was merely a collection of random thoughts, oh well, it's been one of those days.

Scott Brady

01-30-2006, 08:31 PM

I do however, despise the element. Perhaps it's the styling, and the fact that they don't paint half of the plastic body panels. Coupled with the worst beakover angle I've seen on an "suv".

"Despise" :eek:

Well, at least in 2006 you can get the body panels in matching colors :)

Some bigger tires and a small lift and that breakover will be addressed too. It is only a 101" WB, so the break-over wont be so bad...

CLynn85

01-30-2006, 08:37 PM

"Despise" :eek:

Ok ok ok, so despise was a little harsh. Just not very fond of them, as a personal preference. Whenever I see one the first thing I think of is the aztec...

The element has it's pluses, the fact that it's rear space is very versatile and configurable/usable being one of the best, it's just not my style.

Scott Brady

01-30-2006, 08:45 PM

Yeah, sorry Carl, just giving you a hard time :beer: :beer: :) I do know the look isnt for everyone. Oh, and it is a Monday, so despise is a word that can often come to mind on days like this :ylsmoke:

paulj

01-30-2006, 09:06 PM

The poor breakover angle of the Element is due, in large part, to the design goal of a flat floor and great headroom. Note the picture I posted that compared the back ends of a Discovery and my Element. Similar tailgate dimensions, but the Discovery is taller, due to the higher floor.

The low breakover angle does limit rough road travel, though I have learned that taking things like water bars at an angle helps considerably. Putting diagonally opposite wheels on the high ground reduces breakover angle problems.

Ruts are another problem. Where possible I stay out of them. At one spot near the top of Long Canyon near Moab, I was able to keep the front wheels on the high ground, while the rear ones dutifully tracked along in the ruts. I made it through headed downhill. I not sure I could have done it uphill.

A plus feature of the Element is its tight turning circle, on the par with a Wrangler if not better. If the going does get too tough, I don't need much track width to turn tail and run for home :-)

paulj

Scenic WonderRunner

01-30-2006, 09:43 PM

A Pic of an Element......guarding the border at Jacumba, CA. ..........!

Viva La Element!

http://minutemanhq.com/b2/media/20051002ors.JPG
.
.
The mtns. in the background are the In~Ko~Pah mtns. where we are going with Calamaridog to Smugglers Cave this coming Sat. (a little to the left!...hehe)
The pic really shows you how close the border is to this area.....and how anyone can just hop over the "parking lot" barrier!
.
.
.

UncleChris

01-30-2006, 10:08 PM

I just picked up a Rav4 as a daily driver(taking a load off of the Tacoma).

Mine is a 2wd, although the 4wds would probably be wanted. Besides the lack of payload, small tire size, lack of low range, it would be a great vehicle for Alpine style trips to the trail head, or general exploring within limits. Throw a backpack and a cooler in the back and there you go.

Plus, OME makes a lift for it.

I took a Cal 4wheel drive trip this last fall and there was this 80 year old guy riunning around in his CRV. He had been 4 wheeling since he was a kid and was quite experienced. He was able to do everything the jeeps could. Kind of proves the worth of the driver.

datrupr

01-30-2006, 10:51 PM

Just froma little experience, the grand Vitara is a great little truck. Fairly economical, pretty versitile, and highly capable. Solid rear axle, low range, and decent gearing. Every time we take it out, we push it harder on the trail difficulty level and it continues to impress us. Short wheelbase, good approach and departure angles, and narrower than larger utes it has proven to be quite capable. If I remeber right, my gets about 19-20 MPG around town going to and from work. I really like the styling of the new GV's, and speaking with the sales man at the auto show, he informed me that it can be had with low range, and also a locking rear diff. All for under $25K I think it is a steal. the 06's are also a bit wider and longer than the model it replaces, but still seems to me to a pretty capable little truck, and still body on frame, not unibody. I would go that route if it were me. I am also in the same party as Carl, as I do not care much for the styling of the element, but I think I will warm up to it a bit with the body colored plastic trimmings.

paulj

01-30-2006, 11:07 PM

Is this the new RAV4 (4.3) or an earlier generation? The latest is supposed to have lot more space, and more power while still getting good gas mileage. The new AWD system also has more bells and whistles. I am aware of a RAV4 forum (http://www.rav4world.com/) but haven't paid attention to new owner's reactions.

My second car is a 97 RAV4. To give a sense of how it compares to the Element, its recommended tires pressures are 28/26 v 32/34 for the same size tire - the RAV4 is quite a bit lighter.

Given all the talk by RAV4 owners about Honda's 'too late' reactive AWD system, I was surprised to find that the Element handled an icy hill better than my RAV4. It was one of those cases where it was best to apply just enough power to get moving, but not too much to spin the tires. I suspect the Element did better because the automatic transmission does not downshift to 1st when in '2'. Weight distribution and tires could also have made a difference, as well as subtleties in shifting power between front and rear wheels.

paulj

Scott Brady

01-31-2006, 12:38 AM

The key with these smaller vehicles is the fuel economy, lower cost to purchase, etc. Some models can also fly pretty low under the radar when south of the border, allowing you to meld into the towns.

I have been considering one to use for running around town, hauling the mtn bike, trips to the office in CA, etc.

Great picture of the boulder over the trail Paul.

paulj

01-31-2006, 01:32 AM

I had hoped to take of picture of the Element under that rock, but there was too much 'traffic'. That is, about the time I took the picture of the rock, a pickup came behind me, so I drove on through the rock and parked a bit further down. I first drove down this road in 1988 toward the end of my Alaska trip. The rock was not there. (Long Canyon drops from Dead Horse Pt State Park down to the Colorado River.)

Then I was driving my S10 pickup, and was quite happy to have low range for crawling down this road, especially at point where it makes a bend with a full view of the canyon below. In the Element I had to pump the brakes quite a bit. But by then I had enough experience with steep hills to have some confidence in its brakes, even without low range.

My baptism with fire, so to speak, in long steep down hills was High Bar Road, which drops down to the Fraser River in British Columbia. The sign at the top warns of 23% grade. In 3 miles it drops 3500 ft. Even with a photo stop at a switchback part way down, I was smelling my brakes near the bottom. I have attached some pictures from that drop.

Latter in that British Columbia trip, at the bottom of 'The Hill' on the Bella Coola road, I saw a pickup with a front brake fire.

paulj

paulj

01-31-2006, 01:57 AM

What has your real world MPG been?
How did the Element do in your snow run?

While there are frequent 'MPG' threads on Element forums, my impression is that most drivers find the EPA numbers to be realistic - provided you understand how they are measured.

I think the best day averaged around 25 mpg; that was crossing Montana from Billings to Glacier, and mostly involved 50-55 mph highway driving. The previous day across North Dakota was more like 20, with a head wind and near 75mph speeds.

Around home, with short trips, suburban traffic and some hills, I am running around 20. A day spent in 1st and 2nd on backroads could drop it further.

Incidently, on my Alaska trip, I got some of my best mileage on gravel roads like the Dempster. Steady gravel in 40-50 mph without too many hills seems optimal for many cars.

If by 'snow run' you mean the picture labeled Icicle Creek, I got stuck. I described this experience on EOC
http://www.elementownersclub.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11431

At the point where I took that picture, I had turned around since the tracks in the snow had dwindled down to one set. On the way back I was playing in the deeper stuff beside the road, and got stuck with the right front wheel in 8 inches. With some traction mats under the rear wheels I was able to backup a few feet, and then switch the mats to the front, and pull onto the center of the road.

My tires at the time were a poor choice for snow use - GY Integrity (minivan tires). I haven't had occasion to give my Coopers a good snow test.

paulj

paulj

01-31-2006, 02:12 AM

My attachment below is the WonderRunner down on this lower trail heading back to "John's Canyon"

Is that Johns Canyon road a through road? As best I can tell from the maps its an in and out drive. While at Muley Pt I heard and saw a truck of some sort down on that road.

When we drove through this area, the remnants of a tropical storm had soaked things, leaving picturesque ponds on the rocks. I had hoped to drive the Burr Trail, but a mud flow across the road at Bullfrog Ck blocked that way, so we took the long way around, through Capitol Reef and over Boulder Mtn to Escalante.

paulj

Scott Brady

01-31-2006, 03:52 AM

More excellent feedback Paul.

One more question. How does the gearing do on steep decents like you described (the 23% one)? In first gear (or is selecting first gear possible?).

Thanks :)

upcruiser

01-31-2006, 02:37 PM

Great thread idea Scott. Funny thing was, last night I had this same thought for a thread and was thinking about posting it today. Ya beat me to it though. haha

Another vehicle I'd throw into here would be the Ford Escape/Mazda Tribute. Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe they share the same chasis and suspension fundamentals with the Land Rover Freelander. These vehicles seem to have a bit more clearance then other's in their class, likely at the expense of mileage though. Just curious as to the popular opinnions about these. I'm a pretty big Toyota Fan boy and wouldn't mind finding a nice 5 door manual trannied older Rav 4 for a daily driver.

I've always had an appreciation for doing more with less. Ever since I was younger and bouncing around offroad in my dad's VW Thing (which subsequently became mine when I was 16) the idea of light weight offroad vehicles, especially non traditional ones has been appealing. Good discussion here.

zimm

01-31-2006, 03:37 PM

i always thought the little fords were a decent design for off road. just no low range :-( i like the element for a cheap utility vehicle, but the angles in it are horrible. a dirt road gutter would rip off body parts.

paulj

01-31-2006, 05:09 PM

Another vehicle I'd throw into here would be the Ford Escape/Mazda Tribute. Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe they share the same chasis and suspension fundamentals with the Land Rover Freelander.

I believe the Escape/Tribute came out (around 2000) before Ford bought LR. I've never read of an Escape/Freelander connection. A quite look from the back might give some indication of a similarity or difference. The lower suspension control arms are quite visible on the Escape.

For more info on the Freelander look at
http://www.landroverclub.net/Club/HTML/Freelander_main.htm
Here's a picture of the rear suspension of the Freelander. It looks quite a bit different from the Escape's.
http://www.landroverclub.net/Club/Freelander/Trophy_Freelander3.jpg

It is possible, though, that in recent years there has been some technology sharing between the Escape and Freelander. I haven't looked at those cars in a couple of years.

paulj

upcruiser

01-31-2006, 05:33 PM

hmm, interesting. I can't remember where I had heard that. The suspension does look different. The vehicles themselves look remarkably similar though in size and general layout. The Freelander predates the Tribute and Escape, as it was sold oversees for several years before the US introduction.

upcruiser

01-31-2006, 05:34 PM

A friend of mine worked for a Land Rover dealership as a mechanic and told horror stories of the Freelander's quality control problems, I can't recall exactly what they were, but I recall it having to do with the suspension. Anyone heard anything in that department?

paulj

01-31-2006, 05:40 PM

One more question. How does the gearing do on steep decents like you described (the 23% one)? In first gear (or is selecting first gear possible?).

I have the automatic transmission, and use the lower gears regularly on backroads. The Honda transmission is different from some others in that in the '2' setting, it does not downshift, a feature which useful in snow when you want to apply power gently to avoid wheel spin.

As a rough estimate I'd say 1st provides enough engine braking to keep the car at about 20 mph on steep roads. At this speed the engine is reving in its maximum torque range (4000 rpm). Where road roughness, curves and dropoffs dictate a slower speed I have to use the brakes.

So on the High Bar Rd at 23% I used the brakes heavily. On the other hand I did not need any special brake use on California Sonora Pass, which has grades up to 26% but is paved.

The manual transmission for the Element is geared lower, so it would have better engine braking (in addition to enherent advantage of manual transmissions in this use). On the other hand, when crawling up hill, the manual is easier to stall.

transmission ratios
manual: (1) 3.533, (2) 2.042, (3) 1.3555, (4) 1.028, (5) 0.825, (R) 3.583, (diff) 4.765
auto: (1) 2.684, (2) 1.535, (D) 1.081, (OD) 0.738, (R) 2.000, (diff) 4.438

(If you want to plug these numbers into an rpm v roadspeed calculator, the stock tire size is 215/70/16.)

My 97 RAV4 (automatic) has a lower 1st gear than the Element, and hence better engine braking.

The Freelander is supposed to have a very effective braking mode for downhill crawling, as compensation for its lack of low range. I don't know, though, how well it would handle a long downhill such as at High Bar.

paulj

Scott Brady

01-31-2006, 05:53 PM

I have used the Freelanders off-road on several occasions (loaners for my sick Discovery II), and I liked them. They have a 5 speed automatic with a very low first gear. Helps to compensate for the lack of low range.

The greatest hindrance to its off-highway ability if the lack of articulation, though that issue plagues most IFS smaller 'utes.

upcruiser

01-31-2006, 07:05 PM

I did a little looking on a LR forum and it seems that the Freelanders tend to have some tranny issues, I think that was what I was confusing myself with.

datrupr

01-31-2006, 08:12 PM

paulj

02-01-2006, 03:25 AM

The greatest hindrance to its off-highway ability if the lack of articulation, though that issue plagues most IFS smaller 'utes.

The Element's suspension has the same geometry as the CRV and Civic, but with stiffer and larger components to handle the greater weight and height. That includes fairly stiff anti-sway bars to reduce body roll. In a crude sense, I think of it as a box on a sports car suspension.

When I put one front wheel up on a curb, the body tilts. The opposite rear suspension is compressed more than the one on the curb. I think this is because the front sway bar is stiffer.

paulj

paulj

02-01-2006, 03:29 AM

I believe thet the new Freelanders share the same platform as the Escape/Tribute. I also think the Freelander comes with LR's hill decent control. Having said that though, I could be wrong. It has happened before.

According to Car and Driver:

2006.5 Land Rover Freelander Codenamed L315, the all new vehicle is shared with the European Focus/Mazda 3/Volvo S40/V50 and built in Solihull with a choice of Volvo 5-cylinder and Ford 4-cylinder engines

UncleChris

02-01-2006, 03:59 AM

http://www.ad-sport.be/dakar2005/fotoboek/lommel/IMG_2491.jpg
http://www.ad-sport.be/dakar2005/fotoboek/lommel/IMG_2373.jpg

Rav4 at Dakar

For some reason, I think it has been modified(just a little)

This might be a good candidate for expedition use;)

http://www.ad-sport.be/dakar/

paulj

02-01-2006, 06:01 AM

I saw some pictures of the Dakar RAV4 back when I was hanging around the rav4world.com forum. As I recall, the modifications were considerably more than 'a little'.

The RAV4 has been the competition car for the Fulda Challenge for past several years

http://www.canadiandriver.com/news/040305-4.htm 2004
http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/ly/fulda.htm 2003
http://www.trisportnews.com/articles/2005/02/000109.html
http://www.fulda-challenge.com/

This is an annual winter driving competition sponsored by Fulda (a European tire brand), held in the Yukon (at least the final stage is). It gets a lot press in Europe but almost none in North America (except for these bits from Canadian Driver). 2006 is running right now.

paulj

upcruiser

02-01-2006, 01:14 PM

The first thing I noticed in that first picture is the live rear axle. Looks like it has more in common with the Prado then the RAV 4.

Scott Brady

02-01-2006, 02:05 PM

When I put one front wheel up on a curb, the body tilts. The opposite rear suspension is compressed more than the one on the curb. I think this is because the front sway bar is stiffer.

An interesting modification could be to install the CRV front swaybar in the Element (after checking to make sure they would work). That would help balance the suspension off-road and improve articulation. With open differentials, keeping the tires in contact with the ground is key.

cshontz

02-01-2006, 02:28 PM

I'm curious as to what our Subaru Forester is capable of off-pavement. It has impressed me for the most part on the beaches of North Carolina, but since it is our "keep nice" car that we'd like to trade in, I choose not to use it to explore more technical terrain.

http://static.flickr.com/18/70891293_199fd7a86e.jpg

The vehicle does seem to have a following of off-road enthusiasts. While I don't think the Forester is necessarily the most popular choice for off-pavement recreation, it is interesting to see people doing this and making the most of these remarkably versatile vehicles.

http://offroadsubarus.com/

http://img189.imageshack.us/img189/6792/img1843b2qs.jpg

Back on the topic of reliability, this Forester represents my first long-term departure from Jeep vehicles, and this thing has had an expensive head gasket failure, electrical gremlins, and a check engine light that won't go away. I've never had a vehicle that keeps hitting us with problems like this. Otherwise, it is a very nice car.

paulj

02-04-2006, 05:42 PM

Here's a thread that describes an actual attempt to add some lift to an Element - by putting spacers between the tops of the struts and their mounts. In his latest post, OZified wrote that he was able fit the spacers/extensions on the front struts, but couldn't fit them on the rear ones.

http://www.hondaelement.org/showthread.php?threadid=7005&perpage=15&pagenumber=3

http://www.ozified.com/strutexts.jpg

The relevant rear parts diagrams are

http://www.slhondaparts.com/images/PCI/14SCV0/009/2.jpg

http://www.slhondaparts.com/images/PCI/14SCV0/009/1.jpg
I suspect that it is the movement of the rear trailing arm, parts 16,17 that limits the lift. It's a compact design that allows for a low, wide flat floor, and good directional stability, but doesn't allow for a lot of articulation.

paulj

chet

02-07-2006, 06:35 PM

I guess I should chime in! My selection is an older 4 door suzuki sidekick. It will be getting the 1.6L Turbo diesel swap very soon. I am currently getting 20 mpg with 30" tires and stock gearing and a roof basket. But the power sucks! With the diesel I am hoping for close to 30 mpg (which shouldn't be a problem) bigger tires and more power.

I have taken my sidekick places it shouldn't go. This last weekend we were wheelin in 2 feet of wet sloppy snow and other than a lack of low end power I had no problems. I did air down to 6 psi though! :D

You don't get them in the US but my choice for a new small SUV would be the Nissan X-trail. It has a larger 4 cylinder rather than the current trend to v6's with other brands. It has been around in other parts of the world for a few years for aftermarket is out there. OME makes a lift for it! :chowtime:

I test drove one and almost bought one but couldn't get over the fact that I would wreck it on our tight bushy trails up here. Plus it didn't have a Low range.

My next option would be a couple of year old suzuki XL7 more than enough room and sep. frame and solid rear axle.:bowdown:

This is from the 5th. I was pushing snow with the white cross member later in the day!

chet

02-07-2006, 06:38 PM

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b135/dredden/2006-02-06004.jpg

paulj

02-07-2006, 08:39 PM

From what I've personally seen in British Columbia, and read on trail reports at http://www.bc4x4.com/tr/ the little Suzukis (and the GM Tracker) do seem to be a popular choice in Canada, both for road use, and off road. And I have driven some over grown forest service roads where a narrow car has distinct advantages.

I've attached a photo a Suzuki (and my Element) stopped at the Gray Ck general store on Kootenay Lake. I'd just spent 3 hrs crossing Gray Ck Pass (see the other photos).

paulj

flyingwil

02-09-2006, 06:57 AM

What a great thread! I have always been a fan of the RAV since they came out, and have come across a few highly capable RAV's. They would be an excellent choice for light expedition travel.

http://www.rocky-road.com/media/rav4_1.jpg
This one is on 245/70R 16

http://www.toyotaparts4u.com/graphics/David_Hansberry2.jpg

I have always been a fan of smaller vehicles, and off the wall designing... if it looks like it just landed from the moon it is cool in my book! This brings me to the next vehicle we are all overlooking, the Isuzu Vehicross. Scott has pics of Shan's ride up on his site.
http://www.expeditionswest.com/adventures/2004/el_oso/ElOsoMineTrail/images/DSCF2180.jpg

I am at a loss as to what the purpose of the duct tape is for, (I think it adds HP). But with a set up similar to GT's Rubi, it could be a good foundation too.

http://www.supermotors.org/getfile/160461/fullsize/IMG_0040.JPG

http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/data/501/medium/98dsc00770.jpg

http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/data/501/medium/121shortcut.jpg

Scott Brady

02-09-2006, 01:09 PM

The duct tape held on the custom cutout magnetic panels. It is a burgundy VX. :)

asteffes

02-09-2006, 04:35 PM

The duct tape held on the custom cutout magnetic panels. It is a burgundy VX. :)

Dude, why didn't I think of that?!? :) Maybe he should have bought white instead of a pretty red truck.

flyingwil

02-09-2006, 08:44 PM

The duct tape held on the custom cutout magnetic panels. It is a burgundy VX. :)

Ahhh... Now I see that! I thought it was just a different paint scheme:hehe: I guess I threw common sense out the window (or maybe because it was 1:00 AM):hehe:

cshontz

02-10-2006, 03:59 AM

http://www.vehicross.info/gallery/data/501/medium/98dsc00770.jpg

That yellow one is well-traveled. I recognize that spot! :Wow1:

http://static.flickr.com/26/96110176_493cc03fb0.jpg

paulj

02-12-2006, 04:48 AM

Further RAV4 winter driving, in the newest model, from Toronto to Yukon

http://thestar.blogs.com/yukon/

Scott Brady

02-14-2006, 01:43 AM

Great blog post Paul. That got me really excited about a possible winter Arctic run :smilies27

calamaridog

02-21-2006, 02:59 PM

The Vehicross was a super cool ride but they were expensive when new and limited production numbers.

The Suzuki's are really not in the same category as the RAV4 and Element. Suzuki's have body on frame construction, coil sprung solid rear axles, and 2spd transfer cases.

What I've learned is that ANY vehicle that is USED is cool:beer:

whistler110

02-24-2006, 07:52 PM

I thought I'd post this link I found. www.overlandvans.com/0104_BMeyers.html . This looks like an interesting option, not as light wieght as some of the other options but looks to be simple. Sorry if this is a repost.

ducktapeguy

03-03-2006, 06:08 PM

Hey all,

New guy here, I found this place through someone's avatar on Ih8mud after my purchase of a 1975 FJ40. This topic really caught my attention because these are the type of vehicles I'm interested in, smaller expedition vehicles. I currently drive a subaru forester, and have been fairly impressed with it's capabilities up until now. I've taken it to a lot places that probably have never seen a subaru track, and for the most part it's worked well.

Cshontz, what year subaru do you have? The first few model years did have headgasket problems, as well as wheelbearing issues, but it seems most of the problems have been resolved in the later years. I thnk the aussie guys at offroadsubarus have really taken the modding of subarus to another level, but they also get a low range transmission that we don't have over here, plus a lot more support in terms of aftermarket accessories like bullbars, liftkits, and skidplates. These things are pretty much non-existent here in the US.

I think the limiting factor on most of these small utes is the angles, front and rear, then ground clearance. I found out very quickly that the bumpers on all these cars don't really hold up to any type of punishment off road. I was actually looking at the Honda element last weekend, admiriing the relatively decent approach angles and departure angles during a trip to death valley, If they had a better AWD system or a real 4wd, it would be a nice vehicle.

I'm anxiously awaiting the arrivial of the new FJ cruiser, that seems to me the perfect size car for what I want. Just big enough to carry everything, small enough to be manuverable, comfortable enough to be a daily driver, but also have very good offroad capabilities. I am just waiting (like everyone else) for toyota to redesign the rear door to into hatch configuration.

[Edit] I also wanted to mention at this years autoshow there was a really nice volvo wagon (not the SUV) outfitted expedition style. Complete with lift kit, offroad tires, roof rack, hi-lift, lights, gas cans, etc. Looked really nice, I had never even considered volvos before I saw this one.

http://images.automotive.com/cob/factory_automotive/images/Features/auto_shows/2006_LAAS/2006_Volvo_XC70_All-Terrain_rear.jpg

Scott Brady

03-04-2006, 03:04 AM

Hey Ductapeguy :)

I really liked the Volvo as well. I admired it at SEMA. It was actually the most impressive Ford 4WD at the show :o

http://www.expeditionswest.com/equipment/SEMA_05/other/IMG_2290.JPG

bigreen505

05-04-2006, 12:53 AM

Going back to the smaller, lighter theme ...

Does anyone know how what a Subaru Outback is capable of, you know, outback?

bootzilla

08-23-2006, 04:57 AM

bringing the thread back from the dead thanks to the cross-link from the Element thread.

Had a Freelander for about two and a half years before getting the Trooper.

I absolutely loved that thing - looked cool (mine had a built-in soft brush guard and twin light pods on either side), small and manuverable, great on-road ride, and the all-wheel drive system was impressive - I got through a few spots off-road that I had no business trying with totally stock tires and suspension.

It shares no parts with the Escape/Tribute. That is part of the problem - it sports an anemic 2.5L V-6 that was made by *gulp* Rover. Then Rover shut the plant down (which is why you won't find many 2005's or any 2006 Freelanders...) - imagine how easy finding parts is! (If you enjoy watching paint dry or learning useless information, I compiled a short history of the Freelander here (http://s90427806.onlinehome.us/freelander/history.shtml) - yes, there is something wrong with me...)

The biggest problem I had was a leaking rear main seal - engine had to come out twice to fix it. With the warranty running out - I made the decision to move into something more reliable (it was in the shop a LOT).

If it weren't for high maintenance costs and spotty reliability - a used Freebie would make an excellent starting point - you can get them cheap, lift them and put on bigger tires, and the 4 wheel drive system (with hill decent - very cool) is the best you can get without having a low range.

Fun car, but I bet the Suzuki is a better value overall.

flyingwil

08-24-2006, 03:17 AM

I compiled a short history of the Freelander here (http://s90427806.onlinehome.us/freelander/history.shtml) - yes, there is something wrong with me...)

Nice link there!

ZooJunkie

08-25-2006, 06:50 AM

I don't think it's far fetched....I love the 1st gen RAV4s and 2nd gen CR-Vs. Check out these guys in ther CR-V

http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1268098

txsurfer

10-29-2006, 04:54 AM

Ok, im VERY NEW!!! I just signed up for several reasons. lets get into a little history
1st) I live in Texas and im an avid surfer, lets say obsessed!
2nd) I LOVE traveling and exploring especially in less than ideal ways (backpacking, hitchiking, bussing)
3rd) I love offroading/trail exploring, and overland travels are awsome to me

I recently completed a 33 day Mexico trip on busses just backpacking and camping the whole thing, surfing my brains out. It was simple and easy but i found out quick that while easy on the pocket book, exploring remote breaks proved to be an issue, i started thinking, overland expedition baby!

With that being said, im the proud owner of a 97 1st gen toyota RAV4 2wd 5spd manual. I haven taken this car into some very very (sorry what I would consider) sketchy places. Atfer I saw this post, I was just compelled to register. Im not into rock crawling, hardcore baja stuff, just not my style. I love the river crossings, rough trails, overland exploration type stuff. I have been outfitting my vehicle (very modestly) for such a trip next year. I should be heading through Mexico possibly into Belize, then down through the Peten in Guatemala, and back up through mexico for somewhere between 45 to 60 days.

My little RAV4 has suprised me more than once on totally stock suspension, and street tires. I have gone into deeeep drainage ditches, trying to teach myself to hold steady on severe inclines, prepaid to steer in direction of rollover if necesary. I have gotten back out of said ditches (1 barley) as well. I have made a small river crossing on a beach, was roughly knee deep all sand, no problem. I have taken it out on numerous trails and small rough dirt hill climbs, even jumped her once on accident plowing through a still being built holding pond. I love this car!

Before I leave, I plan on installing the folloing. Thule roof racks for surf boards and some camping equipment. Optima Battery backup system with 1 way charge system from main battery. Inverter with power strip to power camping equipment/cooler. Airbags inside my springs to hold the extra rear weight a little better. A floor mounted safe for money/passports. Extra hidden key system, alarm, kill switch, and BFG long trail T/As, 225/75/16s.
I just want to say that this little vehicle is a decent light offroading application, I just wish I had the 4wd!!!!

Hope to have some photos of the car and details of the trip when I get back. We are going through some very backroads in Mexico/Guatemala, so I will be bringing along a poor mans winch (come-a-long).

TACODOC

10-29-2006, 07:37 PM

After my Trophy experience, I can tell you that the Suzuki Vitara is a bada$$ in the sand, nimble and quick :bowdown:

Jeff's driving was darn good too!

And, it's for sale: http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2799

jmeadows

10-30-2006, 06:37 PM

TeleScooby

01-12-2007, 11:37 PM

This is my first post on this great site!

Hey Paul - It's Jesse from EOC, we meet years ago at Marymoor for a quick drive...anyway

I now drive a Subaru Forester and just wanted to make a put for the inclusion of that vehicle in this list. I've done no major mods to my X just yet, but sourcing the parts from Australia, you can do wonders with it! Check out Offroadsubarus.com and subaruforester.org for more info and some amazing pics of Fozzies in action!

See you around the forum!

MountainBiker

01-13-2007, 04:02 AM

Welcome TeleScooby.

I get around pretty well in my Subaru Forester, with some Aussie bits installed!

ZooJunkie

01-16-2007, 10:56 PM

viter

01-18-2007, 05:30 AM

Wow you did quite a lot in just the 2WD RAV4!
X2... way more than majority of people (not on this site obviously) with 4wd suvs and trucks!!!

good luck with your trips!!!!

viter

01-18-2007, 05:48 AM

i dont know if anyone has mentioned this yet, but what about one of the more "rugged" hatchbacks out there, i think Lada made one, i see them every now and then around town with a lift and a snorkel. Ill see if i can find a pic or 2 so people know what im talking about.

:gunt:

I know what these are cause I grew up in ukraine! I think you are talking about lada 8, but I don't think you can find many of them (if any) in the us. maybe in canada though... I know they have NIVA's in Canada -
http://www.parque4x4.com.ar/lada/Apr26-03.jpg

talking about small off-road cars/suvs, check out this video of italian FIAT panda awd car prepped for dakar? - http://youtube.com/watch?v=nTkaQ4AmSp0

chet

01-18-2007, 03:28 PM

we have Lada Niva's in canada. Older ones. no new ones. I worked for a local ski hill here in the early '90's and they bought a bunch of them because they were cheap. they were awesome in the snow!!! BUT they broke down all the time and spent alot of time at the dealer. eventually shutting the dealer down due to bad reliability.

TeleScooby

01-18-2007, 04:36 PM

Welcome TeleScooby.

I get around pretty well in my Subaru Forester, with some Aussie bits installed!

Thanks...I'm actually 'seattleforester' over on sf.org...

rusty_tlc

01-25-2007, 04:01 AM

I hate hot linking so here is a link to a nice Brat (http://www.subarubrat.com/PICS/liiiift.jpg). IMHO a rig ahead of it's time.

Martinjmpr

02-21-2007, 03:43 PM

Going back to the smaller, lighter theme ...

Does anyone know how what a Subaru Outback is capable of, you know, outback?

Okay, first of all, I'll apologize in advance if it's a breach of etiquette to answer a post this old (may of 06), but I didn't see another answer, so here's mine:

I had a 99 Outback Wagon (OBW) as my previous vehicle (traded it in last month on an 04 Tacoma 4x4.) As with anything else, there are pluses and there are minuses.

Mine was a 99, auto, with the standard 2.5l flat-4 motor and the "rocky mountain edition" package (which was basically a cold weather package: Seat heaters, mirror heaters and windshield wiper heaters.) It was a great little vehicle for my last couple of years at law school in Laramie, Wyoming (where Winters are pretty harsh.)

Pluses:

* Comfortable and reliable - never had any problems with it (although you have to be careful with the 1st Gen - 95-99 - Outbacks as the 2.5l engine is notorious for blowing head gaskets.)
* AWD works great in snow, icy conditions, wet roads, and well-groomed dirt. Combined with the low CG you can really get crazy in the curves on dirt roads.
* Surprisingly large for a compact wagon.
* Decent (though not spectacular) MPG. I averaged 21-24 in the city and 25-31 on the highway, using cruise control. Combined with the 15.9 gallon tank, that gives over 400 miles highway range, better than my Tacoma.
* Factory roof rack can be adapted with commercial parts to take a Yakima or Thule rack.
* A surprising number of off-road parts (lift kits, 'roo bars, etc) are available, most of them from Australia, where Subarus are quite popular.
* Very maneuverable through city traffic; visibility and handling are great.

Minuses:

* Hauling capacity is just too small for 2 people, IMO (this is why I traded it for a Tacoma) NOTE: I think it would be fine for one person who didn't mind traveling light.
* (This one is personal to me - your mileage may vary) I didn't care for a lot of the "high end" options, i.e. power windows, power door locks, RKE, etc. My fear was that these things would break when I was in the middle of nowhere and I'd be stuck with a window down and a rainstorm coming in.
* While the Subaru is certainly capable, it does seem rather flimsy in comparison with an actual truck.
* Probably the worst aspect of the Outbacks is the miserable approach and departure angles, caused by excessive overhang at both ends. Really, this is the one thing that keeps the OBW from being a better off-roader. The worst offenders here are the '00-'04 models which have a large plastic air dam hanging from the front bumper. The '05-up models have a smaller air dam, as do the '95-'99 models.
* Breakover angle sucks, too.
* Rear driveshaft sits in a "tunnel" that can get packed with mud and makes a very unpleasant noise. This actually happened to me while I was hunting in Wyoming.
* Seats are rather flimsy and will wear out (spring material crushed down) after just a few years.
* The seat heaters usually break (on mine only the driver's side worked), and I never could get the mirror or wiper heaters to do anything.

Honestly, I think a Forester would make a better Expedition vehicle, even though it's shorter overall, just because it has slightly better approach/departure angles (although when they redesigned the Forester in 2003, they did add more front overhang.) '

A couple other things to consider: Besides the problematic head gasket, another reason to avoid a 95-99 Outback in favor of an 00- up version is that starting in 2000 all of the OBW's got a rear LSD. The '99 and earlier versions were never available with LSD.

An OBW or Baja with a mild, 3-4" lift would be a pretty capable vehicle overall. As long as you understand and respect its limitations, it can take you pretty far.

Hope this helps! :wavey:

upcruiser

04-11-2007, 06:16 PM

I've been putting alot of thought into this subject as of late. Although it wouldn't get the 30mpg that is your target, and likely not save you enough $$ to get the bike, my take on it would be this....

Post '00 Tacoma, regular cab, 4 cylinder, 5 speed.
-adding only the necesarry options in an effort to keep weight down.

For me I'd like to use the truck for multiple uses (hauling construction materials, daily driver, traveling (light overlanding), carrying my recreational toys, possibly putting a truck camper on it for long trips.

My theory is that by using the truck modulary I can keep the economy good. By this I mean only haul around what I need in it any given time. I'd keep the stock ride height and economy friendly all season tires but probably upgrade the suspension for payload. Install a removable front winch mount so I'm only carrying it when needed. Get a topper for that back that I can take on and off depending on what I'm using the truck for. Like I mentioned before, a truck camper could really stretch the versatility of it too.
http://www.six-pac.com/t100spictures.htm
By having it relatively stipped down for daily driving, then accesorized as needed, I think it would be a great compromise of economy and ability. Kind of a swiss army knife approach. By cutting weight and keeping extra wind drag adding amenities off, I expect the mileage would be pretty reasonable. A diesel setup would be slick, but the petrol motor would have advantages in being cleaner running and likely easier to source parts for since it would be completely stock and US market.

upcruiser

04-11-2007, 07:55 PM

That's odd, I posted the above post as a response to the eco friendly thread. Not sure how I goofed that one up.

Spenser

04-18-2007, 07:27 PM

Kristian=just stumbled upon your post while surfing the site today. Good summary of why I just bought a stripped down 2007 tacoma regular cab 2wd for my daily driver. Great truck, great mileage, needs bigger tires and better shocks but you cant beat the price which includes CD player, AC and tilt/telescopic wheel! Allows me to keep my Commander in the garage, gas savings pays the loan and the vehicle will do 90% of what I need in my daily comings and goings. :26_7_2:

Alexlebrit

08-06-2007, 09:00 PM

I should admit I completely forgot I was a member here. If you wanted to go really, really small there's the Fiat Panda 4x4. The Italian police uses them and the first generation ones all over the Alps, summer and winter, and they'll go anywhere.

I've spent a couple of weeks with FIAT bouncing one round various off-road courses and they were happily coping with anything we could chuck at them chasing down Landies for all they're worth. And the good thing was the 1.3 diesel pulled in over 40 mpg (that's US gallons).

Here's a little YouTube of a test between the Panda and the newest Range Rover

CLICKIE (http://youtube.com/watch?v=fAg4DdXAp7Y)

I'm sure if the guy hadn't loused up that final corner it'd have put the Range Rover to shame.

Shovel

08-08-2007, 04:24 PM

I suppose I may as well make my inaugural post in here...

In response to the Vehicross - specifically Shan's "white" one - yep, the duct tape was just closing seams on a magnetic skin made of that "stick on sign" material. Why? Because branches scratch shiny burgundy paint! That skin has kept his paint pretty, and cost him nothing but a bit of time. Apart from some wear on the interior, his VX still looks new.

The vehicross probably isn't the best light expedition vehicle, mainly because it isn't light. It's got a 3.5L v6, a boxed frame, and weighs 4000 lbs with a solid, limited slip rear axle and torsion bar IFS. it's literally a trooper with less practical (but sexier!) sheet metal. A trooper gets the same fuel mileage and has more room. On the plus side, apart from body and interior almost everything's exchangeable with Troopers, making parts availability slightly less of a concern. Shan bought his 01 Vehicross for... $18,000 brand new in 2002. It should be noted that 2 people under 5'5" tall can very easily sleep in back, just by folding the seats back. One average adult male can sleep in back by putting his feet on the center console and reclining back to the rear door.

Shifting gears:
The Subaru Forester is a passable stealth expedition ride, I suppose.... I used my 01 m/t Forester all around the Southwest, and successfully navigated several "easy" rated trails around Moab, the Smoky Mtn road through the Escalante monument including the exit through Left Hand Collet Canyon (very very not advisable in winter with any light-duty vehicle, I did it in summer with the Subaru), and I even successfully drove Spanish Route and Cattle Mountain Trail in the northern Sierra Nevada range. The vehicle has surprising flexibility in its IFS/IRS suspension and, for example, can easily drive up onto two diagonally oriented standard home garage ramps with no light under the tires. A viscous rear differential can be swapped in from certain year imprezas, and the 4.11:1 axle ratio gives about enough torque to the wheels for any incline the vehicle has any business on, anyway. Aussie versions were available with a 15% low range lever, and a couple US owners have swapped that in with good success. Turbo versions should perform well at high altitudes (mine was N/A and was rather sluggish above 8k) - there are also numerous hide-away compartments for first aid and recovery gear etc... though the largest ones are in the rear floor which means you have to unload to access them.
So, the drawbacks are: difficult to sleep inside. Seats don't fold flat and overall length will not accommodate my 6'1", 180lb frame in any reasonable position. Weak roof bends and flexes with more than 100 or so pounds of gear, even distributed evenly. boxer engine's exhaust manifolds create a difficult design consideration for skidplates, the only sump guards made in the aftermarket give up a LOT of ground clearance due to this.

After 3 years of mostly using the Subaru Forester, I'm thrilled to be back behind the wheel of a so-called "real truck". I can't describe how disappointing it always was to see routes I would love to have explored but chose not to for fear of destroying the vehicle. To have to bow out of invited trips because I didn't want to hold up the group... just in general to have to say "I can't".

Ursa Minor

08-08-2007, 10:24 PM

After finding this site and lurking a bit, I'll intro myself by admitting I have gone the "light" route at the moment with a Honda Element AWD. As I explored the Portal...I found someone linked to a thread I had on another board about a quick trip in Baja via my Element.

I think the Element can be better compared to a van than a SUV for overland travel. My travelling rigs previously ranged from the 65 VW micro (retired at 240K miles) and a D90 (sadly sold when I headed overseas for a spell).

The Element is drastically more reliable and faster than my aged VW, so I now take less spares and have yet to retime or adjust valves "en route". the clearance/breakangle isn't as good but it does have better running gear (disc brakes, AC, etc)

The 20-23 mpg increases my range over the old D90, which was running 10 mpg or less off road but has a tiny gas tank. The Defender was great for the last 10% of an adventure, but was not ideal for weekend excursions out of LA, since the other 90% of the terrain between home and "there" was pavement or gravel roads that the Element is fine with. Occasionally I push the E to go a little farther than it probably should, and it's got it's share of baja pinstripes now. Otherwise, if I want to go farther I switch to a backpack, mountain bike or a kayak when the E is at it's limit. I'll get a heavy duty rig again when I have time for multi-week trips again...probably about when the Defenders return to USA

Pic below of my rig loaded up at Lake Mead/Kingman Wash. I've been wrenching on it but nothing on the driveline/lift yet.

cheers,
John