TCO: why we deciced not to get a Sportsmobile (yet :-)

[cweight]

We took another pass at getting a Sportsmobile. This time is was more serious than ever. But when I ran the numbers, we just could not justify it.

I ran some rough Total Cost of Ownership (TCO) numbers on both new and lightly used. They came in much higher than expected and scared us away, for now. One day, when we are not working full-time and we can take a couple of years to play in the Sportsmobile, it might make sense, but not now.

I thought others might find the calculations interesting. I made a lot of assumptions and took quite a few short-cuts, so one could easily argue with the approach, but I think that regardless of the details, the overall picture is sound.

Overall cost: $110K new, $77K used, includes WA state sales tax. (E350 V10, RB50, penthouse, 4x4, plus some extras but not too many)

New:
Depreciation: $5,500/yr $458/mo
Interest/LOC: $4,400/yr $367/mo
Fuel: $2,333/yr $194/mo
Other: $1,167/yr $97/mo
Insurance: $632/yr $53/mo
Registration: $300/yr $25/mo
Total: $14,332/yr $1,194/mo

Used:
Depreciation: $5,133/yr $428/mo
Interest/LOC: $3,080/yr $257/mo
Fuel: $2,333/yr $194/mo
Other: $1,167/yr $97/mo
Insurance: $608/yr $51/mo
Registration: $300/yr $25/mo
Total: $12,621/yr $1,027/mo

Depreciation: I assumed 20 years for new, 15 years for used, value $0 at end.
Interest/Lost opportunity cost: Some money may come from loan, some from savings. I either pay interest on the loan or I miss out on earnings from savings. Assume 4%/year (non-depreciated). This is a real SWAG but I think it is fair.
Fuel: 7K miles/year @ 12mpg & $4/gallon
Other: assume repairs and maintenance cost half the fuel cost
Insurance: I got quotes from my insurance company

Things that jumped out for me:
* Overall, not a huge savings for used - might as well get exactly what we want new.
* The yearly cost is way too high for casual use. Whether you calculate cost/mile or cost/day spent in the Sportsmobile, it just does not cut it. For that kind of money we could take luxury treks in Bhutan or a cruise to Antarctica.
* The biggest costs by far are depreciation/LOC -the bottom line is that dumping $100K+ into a vehicle is seriously expensive.

We are now looking for a hard-sided pop-up trailer for the Pacific Northwest monsoon season and will tent camp otherwise. One day maybe, we'll just say screw the TCO numbers, but not yet.

Cheers,
Chris.

[Christian P.]

Chris

very interesting calculations, and I think you are spot on.

just fyi, I will be selling my Bigfoot/Chevy 4x4 combo very soon. it's a lot bigger than a Sportsmobile, but at $18K there is no more depreciation and it's great for the cold/rainy Northwest weather.

:)

[Kermit]

http://www.ujointoffroad.com/forsale.html Granted the lift is a bit too high, and the wheels are tad ridiculous.

You are right down the road from GTRV, have them throw in a poptop and you're done.

http://www.gtrv.com/

GTRV's poptop is much cleaner looking than a Sports Mobile anyway. While open and closed.

107672

You can get into a 4WD van for under $30K if you look hard enough...heck I have buddy who found one for under $20K
Coil sprung front end/diesel to boot. Did the interior himself and kept in simple.

[Gooseberry]

You know why make payments to a bank? just start putting it in a SMB fund and once ready make no more payments. LOL mine started as a Harley fund and I ended up with a bike from a old friend / Boss after he passed and just kept making payment to myself and dam if the right van did not present it self and I had the cash.

now its just fun and not a payment.

[Toolman]

Build it yourself, and over the next couple years you could be using it on the weekends on the way to retirement and build it for less than half of what a used would cost.

It can happen if you let it.

[Riptide]

Well, if you take care of it, I can't see where a 100K vehicle is worth nothing at the end of 20 years. It depends on the vehicle, I guess. I'm always amazed at was a used VW Westy Synchro commands these days...

We have a small camper that gets used maybe a total of 25-30 days a year. If I pro-rate it, camping per night isn't cheap. But, when I think of the places we've been, and the flexibility it's given us, and the memories my daughter will have, it's a no-brainer for me. I've never once regretted it...

[djm68]

I did a similar calculation and also decided not to buy a fully decked SMB. I did, however, still buy a van:

2009 Ford E350SD, diesel, converted to 4x4 by Quadvan NW; includes upgraded wheels tires, dual shock setup, steering stabilizer, etc. 15,000 miles on the clock, stole it for $30k. Took the van to SMB West and added a poptop: roughly $8k. So I am in for just under $40k, and already have a rig that is highly suitable for good weather camping. I will do some of the interior myself, but will have the "big" work done by Van Specialties, right here in Portland OR. They are know for their very high quality work and being local I will be able to inspect the work as it is being done. I figure $10-15k, at most for the interior. Roughly $50k for like new 4x4 van, interior done as I like, for less than half of a new SMB.

Cheers,
DJM

[Saiyan66]

Lets face it, NEW Sportsmobiles are usually purchased by people who have the disposable income, and not the time to build one themselves. The rest of us will find the time, build one on our own and in the process save $50k. I think you should seriously consider the U-Joint Off Road van that is currently for sale. You wont find one that is mechanically better maintained or equipped. Then you can slowly add the stuff you desire to the package. Give Chris a call and pick his brain about it.

[dms1]

You might want to check with your accountant, but with a sportsmobile or any vehicle that has living quarters, you might be able to write off your loan interest as a second home. I have friends that do this with their accountants blessing. Could help save some money in the end.

[haven]

Thanks, Cweight, for your analysis.

I agree with Riptide's point that a 20 year old Sportsmobile is worth more than zero dollars. If you search Craigslist, you can find 20 year old Sportsmobiles. 2WD models have asking prices around $8-$10K.

If you don't already own a second home, then interest payments on your RV can qualify for a second home deduction. The truck has to have permanently installed facilities for eating, sleeping and toilet functions. The "permanently installed" part is to keep people from putting a sleeping bag and Porta-Potti in a box truck, and calling it a second home. If you build the camper yourself, you may need to get it inspected and certified as an RV to avoid problems with the IRS when you take the deduction.

[2wheelbob]

I bought a used 2002 SMB back in 2009 from the original owners. It has the Quigley 4x4 system, Reunel bumpers with winch, penthouse top, V-10 gas engine, 17" custom wheels/tires, 46 gal fuel tank, etc. The van had about 97k on the chassis. We now have 160k on the van, which includes 4 cross country trips, a trip up the AlCan highway and back, countless trips to Utah (Moab), Colorado (all the passes around Ouray), the Beartooths, the west coast (Washignton/Oregon coast). If one was to rely solely on the 'numbers', I suppose one would never leave the couch. My wife and I were commenting just the other day that the van was one of the best purchases we have made and the memories it has given us and the times we have spent together are truly priceless. I realize that not everyone's situation is the same but I caution against worry too much about money and missing out on living your life. After all, this isn't a dress rehearsal and tomorrow isn't guaranteed. Best of luck to you! See you on the road....

[Explorer 1]

Unfortunately, The SMB product has been over priced for some time. Those owners who bit the bullet (myself included) and paid the top dollars in the past for a new one have suffered when it came to resale time. I still have mine for now but have been disappointed with the quality of workmanship on the items mfg. and/or installed by SMB.

As time goes on and other products come to light (competing with their off road version) they may have to really evaluate their quality control and pricing.

Thanks,
Fred
Explorer 1

[2wheelbob]

I agree with you Fred. As a current SMB owner, I can say I would never buy a new one. The initial buy in is way over priced, especially where SMB build quality is average at best. A nice new 1-ton pick-up and a four-wheel brand camper slide-in are a better value. As you have stated, the resale is a hit for those who bought new but also can be a plus for those looking for a bargain on the used market. We looked for a few months and found the right truck for us. We paid $45k less than the new price, which made our truck a deal. When we go to resell it, as long as everything works and it shows nice, we won't get hurt. It pays to do one's homework and really be honest with ones self about what you really need. It took me 40 years to figure out that lesson :)

peace, Bob

[billwilson]

Edit:
Sorry, i forget how thin skinned folks are
and the easy mis-interpretation of what is written

Disclaimer:
I am NOT advocating new, used, smb, ford, chev, slide in
trailers or what ever

The point i am trying to get across is
waiting to save a few bucks or keeping the comfort level lower
by having a older or more cost effective rig, may NOT be worth it in the long haul.....

I have a TON of clients that scrimped and saved
only to lose the spouse unexpectedly, or lose their health
so they could not travel or IMHO the worst: Leave it to thier
fully ungratefull kids that spend in a week what mom and dad saved over
40 years......

Story:

I am a Estate Planner by trade
I have to crunch numbers for solutions for my clients on a daily basis

The Math is The Math
... however it must be tempered with numbers that dont work......

example:
$50,000 kitchen remodel because the wife wants one
$20,000 cruise with kids and grandkids

NOT cost effective whatsoever

That said and done, i have a picture of the above wife
sitting in her kitchen with a Sxxt eating grin sipping a cuppa coffee
Given to me by her husband....after she died...
She only got 4 months outta the kitchen
He has NEVER regretted the cost.....

I have another picture of a fat, white, beached whale
in a cruise ship pool with his kids and grandkids and a umbrella drink
The same Sxxt eating grin on his face
...he didnt make it 4 months
The widow thanks me everytime we talk for getting them on the cruise

None of the above had any prior health problems
None of the above where that old.....

Another Case:
I just got around to sorting out my wifes and mine
digital pictures
(4 years worth, first wife, new marriage)

The first trip we took was to Sample Meadows meeting another
group of SMB'ers

First trip = Highest Cost of Ownership
... IMHO, the experiance and memories justify
the entire cost.

Add in two more years of once in a lifetime trips
and IMHO the cost of ownership is Zero

Ask yourself, what is a killer week or 10 days with wife worth
if it is the Last Trip you will make......

I know, i know, i hear this all the time as an Estate Planner
we are young
we are healthy
we cant afford it
we have kids in school
ALL these are a non issue if you cant make the trip

Just my Two Satang

bw

[2wheelbob]

Exactly, Bill!

[Edroid]

The key is balance.

"Live for today" has become the motto of the baby boomers, and we have saddled our offspring for generations to come with $16 TRILLION in debt. Shameful. . .

As we live for today, we are spending our kids livelihood.

Don't ever condemn someone for taking a financial choice that they consider prudent or risky - as long as they are not risky with someone else's dollars!

That balance is a very personal choice.

Having said that, I just took delivery of a brand new Sportsmobile last week, and am thrilled as can be. (Paid in full, no borrowed funds).



Edit:
Sorry, i forget how thin skinned folks are
and the easy mis-interpretation of what is written

Disclaimer:
I am NOT advocating new, used, smb, ford, chev, slide in
trailers or what ever

The point i am trying to get across is
waiting to save a few bucks or keeping the comfort level lower
by having a older or more cost effective rig, may NOT be worth it in the long haul.....

I have a TON of clients that scrimped and saved
only to lose the spouse unexpectedly, or lose their health
so they could not travel or IMHO the worst: Leave it to thier
fully ungratefull kids that spend in a week what mom and dad saved over
40 years......

Story:

I am a Estate Planner by trade
I have to crunch numbers for solutions for my clients on a daily basis

The Math is The Math
... however it must be tempered with numbers that dont work......

example:
$50,000 kitchen remodel because the wife wants one
$20,000 cruise with kids and grandkids

NOT cost effective whatsoever

That said and done, i have a picture of the above wife
sitting in her kitchen with a Sxxt eating grin sipping a cuppa coffee
Given to me by her husband....after she died...
She only got 4 months outta the kitchen
He has NEVER regretted the cost.....

I have another picture of a fat, white, beached whale
in a cruise ship pool with his kids and grandkids and a umbrella drink
The same Sxxt eating grin on his face
...he didnt make it 4 months
The widow thanks me everytime we talk for getting them on the cruise

None of the above had any prior health problems
None of the above where that old.....

Another Case:
I just got around to sorting out my wifes and mine
digital pictures
(4 years worth, first wife, new marriage)

The first trip we took was to Sample Meadows meeting another
group of SMB'ers

First trip = Highest Cost of Ownership
... IMHO, the experiance and memories justify
the entire cost.

Add in two more years of once in a lifetime trips
and IMHO the cost of ownership is Zero

Ask yourself, what is a killer week or 10 days with wife worth
if it is the Last Trip you will make......

I know, i know, i hear this all the time as an Estate Planner
we are young
we are healthy
we cant afford it
we have kids in school
ALL these are a non issue if you cant make the trip

Just my Two Satang

bw

[billwilson]

The key is balance.

"Live for today" has become the motto of the baby boomers, and we have saddled our offspring for generations to come with $16 TRILLION in debt. Shameful. . .

As we live for today, we are spending our kids livelihood.

Don't ever condemn someone for taking a financial choice that they consider prudent or risky - as long as they are not risky with someone else's dollars!

That balance is a very personal choice.

Having said that, I just took delivery of a brand new Sportsmobile last week, and am thrilled as can be. (Paid in full, no borrowed funds).

For sure not condeming anyones choice
pointing out that i see alot of folks that can "afford it now"
but cant travel, much less to the places we go.......

ps
congrats on the new smb
now post "before" pics
and soon some "afters" pics with some mud, a few dings and
some Desert Pinstriping !!

[Edroid]

congrats on the new smb
now post "before" pics
and soon some "afters" pics with some mud, a few dings and
some Desert Pinstriping !!

Let the great depreciation begin!

[billwilson]

why oh why do folks lament
- hi price
- poor workmanship

when a couple of alternatives exist
for better value
killer craftsmanship

????

[cweight]

If it was a choice between buying a SMB and sitting on the couch (as some seem to imply) then halleluiah, sell your house, hock superfluous relatives, and pay whatever it takes to get out out there and enjoy life! But that is a false dichotomy (for us anyway). We are currently (since it is summer) camping most weekends, and have seen most of the world via backpack, train, car, Land Cruiser, boat, etc. And we plan to continue this - our next big trip will be taking a few years driving from Alaska to Argentina in our Troopy (Land Cruiser). For that trip, we plan to sell our house - the Sportsmobile would be where we live when back in the States for the inevitable home trips. So we thought about buying one a bit early, for extending our camping season, and for a base camp for spending the night when skiing. But for those marginal benefits, the costs just don't work out for us. Note that I am emphasizing _for us_ a lot. That is because of course some folks will find the benefits worth every penny, whereas others will not. The point of my original post was absolutely not to question anyone's choice, but to make information available for those that are considering such a big purchase. Everyone can and should make their own choices, but going in eyes wide open is always wise.

[haven]

There's no need to pick on Sportsmobile here. All new vehicles (with the possible exceptions of MINI, Wrangler and BMW) will depreciate to less than half their original purchase price in 5 years. If you can't afford the loss, look at less expensive alternatives, including used vehicles. N'est ce pas?

[billwilson]

There's no need to pick on Sportsmobile here. All new vehicles (with the possible exceptions of MINI, Wrangler and BMW) will depreciate to less than half their original purchase price in 5 years. If you can't afford the loss, look at less expensive alternatives, including used vehicles. N'est ce pas?

Holds true for all autos, but me thinks they lose starting when you leave the lot :)

[cwsqbm]

There's no need to pick on Sportsmobile here. All new vehicles (with the possible exceptions of MINI, Wrangler and BMW) will depreciate to less than half their original purchase price in 5 years. If you can't afford the loss, look at less expensive alternatives, including used vehicles. N'est ce pas?

BMW, Wranglers and MINIs depreciate, just slightly slower than other cars. The only things that don't go down in value much are desirable vehicles that halted production before demand was satisfied, like Land Rover Defender 110.

[superjunkman]

We took another pass at getting a Sportsmobile. This time is was more serious than ever. But when I ran the numbers, we just could not justify it.

I ran some rough Total Cost of Ownership (TCO) numbers on both new and lightly used. They came in much higher than expected and scared us away, for now. One day, when we are not working full-time and we can take a couple of years to play in the Sportsmobile, it might make sense, but not now.

I thought others might find the calculations interesting. I made a lot of assumptions and took quite a few short-cuts, so one could easily argue with the approach, but I think that regardless of the details, the overall picture is sound.

Overall cost: $110K new, $77K used, includes WA state sales tax. (E350 V10, RB50, penthouse, 4x4, plus some extras but not too many)

New:
Depreciation: $5,500/yr $458/mo
Interest/LOC: $4,400/yr $367/mo
Fuel: $2,333/yr $194/mo
Other: $1,167/yr $97/mo
Insurance: $632/yr $53/mo
Registration: $300/yr $25/mo
Total: $14,332/yr $1,194/mo

Used:
Depreciation: $5,133/yr $428/mo
Interest/LOC: $3,080/yr $257/mo
Fuel: $2,333/yr $194/mo
Other: $1,167/yr $97/mo
Insurance: $608/yr $51/mo
Registration: $300/yr $25/mo
Total: $12,621/yr $1,027/mo

Depreciation: I assumed 20 years for new, 15 years for used, value $0 at end.
Interest/Lost opportunity cost: Some money may come from loan, some from savings. I either pay interest on the loan or I miss out on earnings from savings. Assume 4%/year (non-depreciated). This is a real SWAG but I think it is fair.
Fuel: 7K miles/year @ 12mpg & $4/gallon
Other: assume repairs and maintenance cost half the fuel cost
Insurance: I got quotes from my insurance company

Things that jumped out for me:
* Overall, not a huge savings for used - might as well get exactly what we want new.
* The yearly cost is way too high for casual use. Whether you calculate cost/mile or cost/day spent in the Sportsmobile, it just does not cut it. For that kind of money we could take luxury treks in Bhutan or a cruise to Antarctica.
* The biggest costs by far are depreciation/LOC -the bottom line is that dumping $100K+ into a vehicle is seriously expensive.

We are now looking for a hard-sided pop-up trailer for the Pacific Northwest monsoon season and will tent camp otherwise. One day maybe, we'll just say screw the TCO numbers, but not yet.

Cheers,
Chris.

I mean this in the most unoffensive way I can. If this is how you think about things I don't know that you would be the type of person that would be capable of enjoying a SMB to the fullest. I didn't have a 100k super rig like you're derscribing but I did beat the brakes of mine in Baja on a regular basis. If you can afford it get it if not don't, but don't get to deep into things that are supposed to be fun if they require that much pre-meditation.

[southpier]

and that 60$ meal you had last night ...

[UHAULER]

and that 60$ meal you had last night ...


You have to pay to get rid of today.....

[JRhetts]

Edit:
...
The point i am trying to get across is
waiting to save a few bucks or keeping the comfort level lower
by having a older or more cost effective rig, may NOT be worth it in the long haul.....

...
ALL these are a non issue if you cant make the trip

Just my Two Satang

bw

Well put, Bill. And I also very much liked Edroids addition.

I calculated and posted the actual 4-year useage costs of our first EarthRoamer elsewhere on this Forum; came out to be about $40/day, a period of heavy and regular travel for us [living in it for as much a 2-3 mo at a time]. This eventually led to purchasing a Fuso-FM based rig.

The challenge and anxiety about significantly redesigning and rebuilding the house [+ minor mods to the truck itself] has turned into one of the most satisfying accomplishments of my adult life. Put a price on a 3-month solo trip in the Yukon this spring and summer to the most remote places a 23,000# 4WD vehicle can go, with only the exhaust brake falling off the truck [quickly and easily bolted back in place before anything broke] and having 3 cabinet latches break and have to be replaced by spares I was carrying with me. I loved the trip and was deeply rewarded by the pleasure of my design and build out.

The total cost of the rig may not be "rational", but then enjoyment and adventure aren't either! Different folks are satisfied by different things. One of my best friends is most satisfied with a cheap acquisition, I more by the quality and functionality of something.

John

[mudmony]

I am suprise at the scrutiny of how people spend thier own $$$$

[haven]

Just wait, mudmony, you could be next to go under the microscope...

[mudmony]

We took another pass at getting a Sportsmobile. This time is was more serious than ever. But when I ran the numbers, we just could not justify it.

I ran some rough Total Cost of Ownership (TCO) numbers on both new and lightly used. They came in much higher than expected and scared us away, for now. One day, when we are not working full-time and we can take a couple of years to play in the Sportsmobile, it might make sense, but not now.

I thought others might find the calculations interesting. I made a lot of assumptions and took quite a few short-cuts, so one could easily argue with the approach, but I think that regardless of the details, the overall picture is sound.

Overall cost: $110K new, $77K used, includes WA state sales tax. (E350 V10, RB50, penthouse, 4x4, plus some extras but not too many)

New:
Depreciation: $5,500/yr $458/mo
Interest/LOC: $4,400/yr $367/mo
Fuel: $2,333/yr $194/mo
Other: $1,167/yr $97/mo
Insurance: $632/yr $53/mo
Registration: $300/yr $25/mo
Total: $14,332/yr $1,194/mo

Used:
Depreciation: $5,133/yr $428/mo
Interest/LOC: $3,080/yr $257/mo
Fuel: $2,333/yr $194/mo
Other: $1,167/yr $97/mo
Insurance: $608/yr $51/mo
Registration: $300/yr $25/mo
Total: $12,621/yr $1,027/mo

Depreciation: I assumed 20 years for new, 15 years for used, value $0 at end.
Interest/Lost opportunity cost: Some money may come from loan, some from savings. I either pay interest on the loan or I miss out on earnings from savings. Assume 4%/year (non-depreciated). This is a real SWAG but I think it is fair.
Fuel: 7K miles/year @ 12mpg & $4/gallon
Other: assume repairs and maintenance cost half the fuel cost
Insurance: I got quotes from my insurance company

Things that jumped out for me:
* Overall, not a huge savings for used - might as well get exactly what we want new.
* The yearly cost is way too high for casual use. Whether you calculate cost/mile or cost/day spent in the Sportsmobile, it just does not cut it. For that kind of money we could take luxury treks in Bhutan or a cruise to Antarctica.
* The biggest costs by far are depreciation/LOC -the bottom line is that dumping $100K+ into a vehicle is seriously expensive.

We are now looking for a hard-sided pop-up trailer for the Pacific Northwest monsoon season and will tent camp otherwise. One day maybe, we'll just say screw the TCO numbers, but not yet.

Cheers,
Chris.

sorry had to comment again, with this process of thought, one will be stuck on the couch crunching ###s, until its to late,,life depreciates

[cweight]

"sorry had to comment again, with this process of thought, one will be stuck on the couch crunching ###s, until its to late,,life depreciates"

Ok, I'll bite this time. This "process of thought" took me maybe two hours. Anyone who would spend $100K without spending two hours to evaluate whether it really is worthwhile to them either has too much money or is a fool, or both.

That two hours saved me from spending WAY too much money on something that won't make much of a difference in how often I get off the couch. Since I am feeling slightly insulted and seem to have some time on my hands... I already have a Land Cruiser kitted out for overland travel - it has spent a year in Australia and seven years in Africa and is now being prepped for Alaska to Argentina. I also have a Tacoma for US travel and it has seen pretty much every single National Park on the West Coast, and a significant number of the National Forests and a healthy dose of BLM lands. Just to add some more color (and brag a bit), my almost-4 year old has crawled in the sands of the Kalahari, took some of his first assisted steps on a glacier in Iceland, has napped under a mesquite tree on the White Rim Trail, has bathed in the hot springs of the Black Rock Desert, and just last weekend hiked 4 miles by himself on a backpacking trip in the North Cascades. All without a Sportsmobile! Sitting on the couch isn't something I am particularly worried about.

You know what I _do_ worry about? Working too hard. Spending too much money on s&*t I don't need and then having to work too long to pay off those debts. That Sportsmobile might mean another year or two of work to pay off. You are absolutely right that life depreciates - but for many of us, a Sportsmobile is not the answer to that depreciation. The marginal benefit that a Sportsmobile provides over my existing camping setup simply isn't worth it TO ME. For lots of other folks, it is well worth it. Awesome, congratulations, have at it, explore, enjoy, see you out there. But for those of us with either limited resources or who like to be careful with how and where we spend our money, I offered some numbers.

Interestingly, around the time I posed these numbers, I emailed the guy whose Sportsmobile I was considering buying and told him the TCO numbers had scared me away. His answer: "I don't blame you. This is part of our reasoning on selling it as well but not something I would tell prospective buyers. It doesn't make sense to us to have a third vehicle sitting a lot of the time costing that much $$. Sure we really enjoy it when we do use it but in reality we can do the same things with a tent and car and the kids would be just as happy. Hence why we will be selling the van and upsizing our space with a small travel trailer but seriously downsizing the cost."

So I posted those TCO numbers for those who DO care about such tradeoffs. Ok, back to work, I have some new skis I need to pay off :-)

[Overlandexpeditionspecial]

You know what I _do_ worry about? Working too hard. Spending too much money on s&*t I don't need and then having to work too long to pay off those debts.

So I posted those TCO numbers for those who DO care about such tradeoffs. Ok, back to work, I have some new skis I need to pay off :-)

I have a doctor friend that is the same way, he scrutinizes all big purchases for resale value and their worth to him (it drives me nuts sometimes) but in return he has a couple of planes, two modest houses, newer jeeps, and WORKS 4 DAYS A MONTH, the rest of the time he takes his home schooled daughters to Alaska, or hiking the highest points in all the states. So although I deal in a luxury service business and am glad some people part with their money freely, there is a lot to be said for those that analyze and still live their life to the fullest (cweight congrats on being one of them).

[whitham_wannabe]

I got into a fully equipped SMB, 4x4 but non diesel for 19k.

It's a '96, and yeah, it isn't as shiny as a new one, but my vehicles never stay that way anyway. Everything works, and depreciation should be pretty negligable over the next few years.

Doing this it this way also allows me to assess whether I really do enjoy THE SMB ownership experience (I do) without laying out 100k.

[haven]

Great deal!. Sportsmobile West has a list of used vehicles for sale here. Prices for 4x4s from $23K to $65K.
http://sportsmobile.com/z-PO_calif.html

Here's a 1985 GMC with 4x4 conversion for $15,500. Love the "A-Team" appearance!
http://portland.craigslist.org/wsc/rvs/3272656345.html

[mudmony]

"sorry had to comment again, with this process of thought, one will be stuck on the couch crunching ###s, until its to late,,life depreciates"

Ok, I'll bite this time. This "process of thought" took me maybe two hours. Anyone who would spend $100K without spending two hours to evaluate whether it really is worthwhile to them either has too much money or is a fool, or both.

That two hours saved me from spending WAY too much money on something that won't make much of a difference in how often I get off the couch. Since I am feeling slightly insulted and seem to have some time on my hands... I already have a Land Cruiser kitted out for overland travel - it has spent a year in Australia and seven years in Africa and is now being prepped for Alaska to Argentina. I also have a Tacoma for US travel and it has seen pretty much every single National Park on the West Coast, and a significant number of the National Forests and a healthy dose of BLM lands. Just to add some more color (and brag a bit), my almost-4 year old has crawled in the sands of the Kalahari, took some of his first assisted steps on a glacier in Iceland, has napped under a mesquite tree on the White Rim Trail, has bathed in the hot springs of the Black Rock Desert, and just last weekend hiked 4 miles by himself on a backpacking trip in the North Cascades. All without a Sportsmobile! Sitting on the couch isn't something I am particularly worried about.

You know what I _do_ worry about? Working too hard. Spending too much money on s&*t I don't need and then having to work too long to pay off those debts. That Sportsmobile might mean another year or two of work to pay off. You are absolutely right that life depreciates - but for many of us, a Sportsmobile is not the answer to that depreciation. The marginal benefit that a Sportsmobile provides over my existing camping setup simply isn't worth it TO ME. For lots of other folks, it is well worth it. Awesome, congratulations, have at it, explore, enjoy, see you out there. But for those of us with either limited resources or who like to be careful with how and where we spend our money, I offered some numbers.

Interestingly, around the time I posed these numbers, I emailed the guy whose Sportsmobile I was considering buying and told him the TCO numbers had scared me away. His answer: "I don't blame you. This is part of our reasoning on selling it as well but not something I would tell prospective buyers. It doesn't make sense to us to have a third vehicle sitting a lot of the time costing that much $$. Sure we really enjoy it when we do use it but in reality we can do the same things with a tent and car and the kids would be just as happy. Hence why we will be selling the van and upsizing our space with a small travel trailer but seriously downsizing the cost."

So I posted those TCO numbers for those who DO care about such tradeoffs. Ok, back to work, I have some new skis I need to pay off :-)

didnt mean to insult...and appreciate your number crunching..but there is a limited amount of time to do the things one wants.

[rebar]

I got into a fully equipped 96 SMB, 4x4 but non diesel for 19k.

Doing this it this way also allows me to assess whether I really do enjoy THE SMB ownership experience (I do) without laying out 100k.

That does sound like a good approach and reasonable price..

Wonder what the profit margin for a new sportsmobile is?

[susswein]

I agree with your overall conclusions, but I would suggest one correction to your calculation: Depreciation is not linear. It's highly front-loaded. When you drive a new car (or sportsmobile) off the lot it depreciates a *lot*. I bet you could get get that 5 year old sportsmobile for closer to $60K if you were willing to shop around a bit.

[loren85022]

One great thing about buying a basic van and adding the extras is that you really get to assess what is necessary. Once we got ours, we realized many things about our style of traveling that altered our build plans. That justifies all my time spent here. I'm doing recon.

[susswein]

Agreed. I'm into my van for under $18K right now. I bought a 2001 E350 diesel quigley 4wd for $14K five years ago. It already had a high top installed. I gutted the inside, built my own interior with insulation, cabinetry, and corian countertops, added additional window, waeco fridge, LED lighting, 140W of solar with twin AGM batteries, propane system, and more, all for under $4K for materials. It's been up to Alaska, down to Cabo and many trips all over the western US, and I could probably sell it today for more than I have into it. It may not be as pretty as my friend's sportsmobiles, but the cost of ownership is a heck of a lot less.

[kmacafee]

A great thread. I too went through the Sportsmobile purchase process. I visited the factory and looked at quite a few used ones. Ultimately, it came down to having a vehicle that cost that much sitting around some of the time. I am a financial planner and did a quick cost/benefit analysis of getting a SMB versus something else. Ultimately, I bought a new Tacoma and and have built it into a very comfortable and useful vehicle that has taken us on some really great trips. We will probably get a Four Wheel Camper at some point. It fits in my garage and can be driven daily.

I somewhat agree that converting your life into a few columns of numbers is not ideal, but I have seen far too many people spend exorbitant amounts of money on stuff, only to find they did not plan for the unexpected. A few hours spent doing a "common sense" check is probably not enough to crush one's dreams.

[temple]

At those prices, don't look into auto racing as a hobby!

[The Swiss]

Good thread! But I think it became a little unfair towards Sportsmobile (disclaimer: I don’t own a Sportsmobile, don’t plan the purchase of a Sportsmobile in the foreseeable future nor do I know anybody at Sportsmobile) calling them “overpriced”. Just some random thoughts.

Sportsmobile:

Be aware that prices are a result of the market, not dictated by a company. Sportsmobile does not have a monopoly (but a good market position in a nice niche), people who need/want a camper van have alternatives. The facts that Sportsmobile is selling their vans very well indicates that they are on target with the market price, not "overpriced".
What it costs you to build a van yourself for yourself does not compare to the costs a company has to deal with. The more “social” a country or state is becoming, the higher the costs that get tacked on to a business and the harder it is for a company to make a profit.
The reason Sportsmobiles mostly exceed the 100k barrier is not the base van and interior, but that most of their clientele expects to go camping in luxury living room conditions, with leather, surround sound systems, flat screen TV, electric operated everything and of course 4x4, big lift and big tires. A base 2WD Sportsmobile probably will run in the high 60k, not much more than a fully loaded SUV and – especially if equipped with a rear locker and good tires – will get you to 98% of the places you want to go and back home. (On a side note: the famous Westies conquered the world with a 47 HP engine and RWD only)


Now TOC or not TOC:
Any responsible person should do some kind of TCO for all major purchases, not just a Sportsmobile, to identify the true costs, no matter if it is a camper, house, car, boob-job, boat, bigscreen TV, iPad or the mediterranean cruise. Once you know the costs, then it's decision time:
How happy does this purchase itself makes me?
Will this purchase let me do things that make me happy (or how cweight put it “… it won't make much of a difference in how often I get off the couch…)
Are the costs in a healthy relation to the added happiness this purchase gives me?

And unluckily, last but not least:

Can I afford it?


Like with so many thing when life gets involved, there is just no right or wrong answer and what other people think of me and my decisions is none of my business.

[robgendreau]

Thought I'd chime in, being a SMB owner. I got mine in 2001, and I have to say they seem to have increased in cost faster than inflation, but it's hard to tell, since they've moved more to the high end. When I got mine, Quigley was doing the 4x4 for example, and there weren't as many bells and whistles to add. They sell towards the higher end, and look around here: that's what this site is all about. Aside from all the customs, there's Land Rovers, BMW GSs, etc etc. There are tons of cheaper alternatives just looking at initial cost.

But having said that, TCO of rec vehicles can be very misleading. The big factor isn't so much the price, or depreciation, it's the USE. People tend to delude themselves into thinking they'll use the thing (and it could be a boat, or second home, or time share) much more than they do. A couple of changed vacation plans and your cost calculation per actual use goes nuts.

Another factor, since we're on an offroad forum, is repairability. I got my SMB made to be pretty simple, and it's on a Ford platform with parts and mods aplenty. And regular-old RV or marine stuff inside. I have old vehicles, and can fix them. I would think you'd need to include some metric in your TCO to at least attempt to account for that.

Here's a sobering comparison. I recently fixed up a 1999 Chevy Tracker; got it with 120k miles in great shape. Raised it, new shocks, winch, etc etc and it's a great light offroader. $3000 price + 2500 add-ons. Couple hundred to insure. Sold it to a friend. He just bought a Newmar motor coach; 37'. Bigger than most places I live, with everything (and duplicates of everything). Tows the Tracker on a flat bed ($2500); the motor coach (with 21k miles) cost $87k. So for less than the price of a new SMB he's got a second home (BTW, it costs LESS to insure than my SMB! and gets 8 MPG to pull all that weight) and an offroad worthy vehicle. They park it out off dirt roads at Rasor Rd, Spangler or Jawbone in the Mojave, or Utah or whatnot and fourwheel and motorcycle all over the place. Like stay at Moab, throw a tent into the Tracker, and do the White Rim.

Me? I use their shower and toilet, and keep my frozen food in their fridge when we're traveling together. :D

[Detslider]

First and last post are great and SMB dream killers and I thank them for that.
I need occasional reminders that I can road trip in my cheap vehicle or, for the cost of a nice vehicle, fly somewhere nice.

[robgendreau]

First and last post are great and SMB dream killers and I thank them for that.
I need occasional reminders that I can road trip in my cheap vehicle or, for the cost of a nice vehicle, fly somewhere nice.

Hey, you can still have the dream...I still have my SMB. Just look for the downscale ones if that's what you can afford.

I've often thought the model for "adventure"/RV vehicle use ought to be what we used with boats. Charters. If you're an owner, you put it in charter and some outfit rents it to day sailors, classes, etc. They cover insurance and maintenance; you get to use it when you want. Sure, it gets more miles but being used isn't necessarily a bad thing. Plus you get some money out of it. We're seeing it now with car share apps as well. And they have auto clubs that do the same, at least here in the SF Bay Area. I can take out a Lambo this weekend for the right price. Maybe AirBNB for SMBs.....

[YoTerryH]

You are right down the road from GTRV, have them throw in a poptop and you're done.

http://www.gtrv.com/

GTRV's poptop is much cleaner looking than a Sports Mobile anyway. While open and closed.

107672



Kinda funny to be browsing the forums and see my van. Not just A GTRV, but MY actual rig!

[John E Davies]

He just bought a Newmar motor coach; 37'. Bigger than most places I live, with everything (and duplicates of everything). Tows the Tracker on a flat bed ($2500); the motor coach (with 21k miles) cost $87k. So for less than the price of a new SMB he's got a second home (BTW, it costs LESS to insure than my SMB! and gets 8 MPG to pull all that weight) and an offroad worthy vehicle. They park it out off dirt roads at Rasor Rd, Spangler or Jawbone in the Mojave, or Utah or whatnot and fourwheel and motorcycle all over the place. Like stay at Moab, throw a tent into the Tracker, and do the White Rim.
That is one way to do it, but it comes with a ton of limitations .... plus you have to accept the fact that you won't be able to take that big bus anywhere on forest roads, or over those cool unmaintained Colorado passes. If you want complete freedom of travel, the rig has to be nimble with decent clearance and 4wd.....

John Davies
Spokane WA USA

[robgendreau]

Take those CO passes as an example. You park the RV down in Silverton and do all of them in your toad, which because it isn't built to sleep in, has much better 4x4 performance. Maybe there's a few way up there campsites you wouldn't be able to overnight in, but with a more nimble 4x4, ATV, UTV, motorcycle or whatever you see the same territory...and maybe even pack tent and stay overnight. Instead of your "home" being back in Spokane it's now in Silverton for a few weeks, so no long drive back either. Which is probably why more weekenders have the vans, and smaller vehicles, and the retired guys have the RV/second homes.

Me? I'm realizing that I like the 4x4 van because I like where it allows me to camp, and don't really care about driving marginal roads for the sake of driving marginal roads, which is kinda what my big bus RV friends are liking.

[John E Davies]

Take those CO passes as an example. You park the RV down in Silverton and do all of them in your toad
It's all about if you want to set up a base camp and drive circles around it for a few days, or meander through an area and out the far side. I much prefer the latter. I hate back tracking to a home base. I did that for many years when riding dirt bikes in the mountains. It gets old and it burns up a lot of extra gas and time.

I would still carry a lightweight vehicle to act as a toad - say a sub-250 pound dual sport like a Husky TE-310, or even one of the new e-bikes like the Zero FX 5.7 - for running short errands, exploring a tight side track, or driving out for help or parts if I got seriously broken down.

John Davies
Spokane WA USA

[robgendreau]

The e-bike is a very interesting idea. The Zero FX, eg, has swappable power packs; put them in your vehicle for regular power and then swap 'em in for a ride. Only weighs about 250 lbs. Not sure if that's possible, but mebbe. Not sure how many volts those packs use; they're about 2.5 kW though and I imagine it's way higher than 12v....