How much off road can they handle?

[jnelson4x4taco]

Hello all, a few years ago I got away from the EXPO community when I sold my Tacoma for a turbo Subaru Forester. I was driving to downtown Denver and wanted a more "traffic friendly" vehicle. It was a sad day and a poor decision but thats behind me lol. Im happy to say that I will be getting into a truck again:wings::wings::wings:

With 2 dogs currently and kids on the horizon, my wife and I are looking for a truck setup that is a little more family friendly. My Tacoma was set up pretty well and even when towing my Coleman popup, it could tackle some pretty good trails. We are looking for a crew cab power stroke with a short bed and fitting it with some sort of hard side camper. My question is, how much off road capability do they have? It would be kept mostly stock but possibly a leveling kit and 285s. I know it will be vastly different from the Tacoma but my question is, "how much?" Any pictures you guys would want to share, showing your rigs off road would be great. As always, thanks for the help!!

-Jeff

[redthies]

I like the question. Can't wait to see the opinions. I will just say, get the lightest hard side you can find if you want to do more than fire roads!

[duneyeti9]

I tried it with a pop-up (Starcraft) and hard sided (Lance) camper on an F250 4x4 and was not satisfied with the outcome. Almost any camper will compress the suspension enough to leave almost no travel, making the ride unbearable and possible damaging to the camper. Airing down the tires is not an option with such a load. If I were to attempt it with a lighter camper I would shim the camper to fit snug into the bed limiting movement and loosen the tie downs to reduce the amount of stress.

[cnynrat]

We have a '99 F350 super cab/long bed with a Bigfoot C25-10.6 camper, which is a somewhat larger setup than you are thinking about. Our total rig weighs in right at about 10k pounds packed for a trip.

From time to time we do take it on dirt roads to reach remote campsites, but it's not the primary purpose of this rig for us. In general, the overall weight and high center of gravity of a typical hard sided camper will limit what you can do off-road. They can handle a reasonably well graded dirt road with few problems. They won't handle off camber situations very well at all. As noted above, you aren't going to have a lot of suspension flex left for articulation. We find washboard roads are passable, but slow going since it feels like the camper is going to vibrate apart if you run too fast. Another point to think about is the overall height can be a problem if you are in heavily forested terrain (I think ours is ~12.5' tall).

Something to consider is that if you get a camper with electric jacks they do come off the truck pretty easily, so if you are in base camping mode you can drop the camper and have the truck by itself to take on day trips. We do that frequently, and I don't find the truck itself to be very limiting off road other than the sheer size of it doesn't work on certain tight trails.

[goodtimes]

It all depends on where you want to go.

There are light weight options out there (such as FWC's new hard side) - but make no mistake, any slide-in camper is going to be pretty close to a full load for a 3/4 ton truck. They'll go down the paved road just fine, but will leave you wishing for more suspension when the road gets rough. Even my 3/4 ton Dodge with a FWC pop-up camper (advertised at 800 pounds) wallows around pretty bad in rough terrain - of course, fully loaded with water, food & gear, it's probably closer to 1300 pounds. Long travel air bags (Firestone makes a 10" travel bag that works great) will go a long way towards fixing that issue, but you'll have to remember that you're taking a really big, really heavy, vehicle off road (at least relative to a tacoma pulling a little camping trailer), so choose your route & drive accordingly. It ain't gonna ride like a well tuned rock buggy . . .

If you're looking at short bed trucks, be careful if you decide to put a 8' long camper (designed for a long bed truck) on it. They move the weight quite a ways back - putting much more of the load on the rear suspension. It can be done (I do it), but it certainly adds to the above problem.

Really, the biggest problem I've had is low hanging branches. Of course, I'm not going the same places that I used to take my TJ.

[Regcabguy]

My '07 stock 2500 Dodge CTD choked miserably with the weight of my Northstar. With the Dodge's Carli can custom design your suspension to handle the weight and leverage your camper will exert upon the frame. National Spring,Deaver and other's work wonders with the Ford's.

[jnelson4x4taco]

Thanks everyone for the feedback, that's about what I expected to hear but to get the feedback from folks who have been there was very valuable. My wife and I are still trying to figure out what fits best for us but are definitely leaning toward the super duty/camper idea. We have family in the Phoenix area and thought if we had a truck and camper, we could make the drive from Denver and hit some dirt along the way. We know that setup would limit us in a lot of ways but we would also gain a lot as far as convenience and amenities go. Witha little one in our future, I think the benefits outweigh the lack of offroad ability.

[jnelson4x4taco]

Not to stray too far from the thread but how much would the capability differ with a small bumper pull camper instead?

[FishPOET]

I typically don't take my truck and camper on a road I have not been on before in the Jeep. Like others have stated before it does OK on fire roads but not much else. Anything starting to get off camber scares the crap out of me. I can't imagine the nightmare that a truck and camper flop would be.

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d109/FishPOET/TC/IMG_2543tc.jpg

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d109/FishPOET/TC/IMG_1917TC.jpg

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d109/FishPOET/TC/IMG_2548tc.jpg

http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d109/FishPOET/TC/IMG_1926TC.jpg

[jnelson4x4taco]

Maybe my eyes are fooling me but the first and last photos there look like more fire roads. That last pic looks like most trails I would be traveling; mostly dirt with a few rocky sections throughout. Thanks for the pics fishpoet!

[mudmony]

No off road capabilities, other the fire roads..ordered a new 2000 f250 extra cab powerstroke, just like fishpoet, silver and all, through a 9' Alpenlite on it with the kids and went to conquer the west..... no go, no bueno, and down right scary and trust me I will try anything and unfortunately I didnt listen to my peers

[tombodad]

I have a history in driving top-heavy wildland fire trucks (about 6k pounds high in the bed with a full tank) - sometimes in pretty nasty conditions. That being said, I am way more nervous with my truck and camper than I ever was with the fire trucks. Part of that may be the dually firetruck vs srw on my truck, but also the camper is just so darn tall. Flops side-to-side like crazy. The other aspect that not many have mentioned is the weight and sinking. Many times sand and dirt and snow that holds jeeps just fine, and may hold an unloaded diesel, are not gonna do well with an 11k lb truck/camper, especially SRW.

[LimaMikeMike]

Weight is not your friend. Look for a light narrow camper with not much rear overhang (FWC, Northstar Liberty or Freedom, Adventurer 80GS/SK, Lance 825/865) look at a pop up too takes weight away from up high.

Upgrade the suspension with quality bits, go slow and use common sense. A diesel fullsize truck is not the ideal offroader even unloaded anyway.

[Rovertrader]

This thread is a common question actually, and we are pondering the same issues but with two adults, and a 5&7yo. We have even considered a used Earth Roamer, but the cost and limitations are huge. I am close to trying a F350 drw as it is obviously oversized for serious trail work, thus gaining the stability from the drw vs. losing a tiny bit off road- though questionable as referenced above. Most all the brush trucks out this way use drw. Add a flatbed with an All Terrain Camper, which provides much more floor space, hence more layout options. They are light, and short when traveling.
Very frustrating situation, but the kids get scared on the more serious trails, the wife can certainly live without the hard core trails, and I would rather go more often even if less challenging.... Life is a compromise.

[jefe4x4]

Jeff,
This thread has been here a little while, but I thought I'd add my 2 pesetas. You already have the most important part in getting into a expo hardside: you're already an off-roader. I've learned over the years about things like:
purchase the lightest, and smallest full feature camper you can find. This is exactly what I got with the Lance Lite 165-S, 8'6" xcab. It is lighter than many pop up luxury campers. It is 4" less tall and 6" narrower than most so-called full size hard side campers and narrower than 1/2 the pop ups.
Get the most insulation you can for other-than-summer trips. this is the only thing I don't like about our Lance: not enough insulation. I have done some retrofitting of insulation.
loosen the tie-downs on rough roads.
install Lance centering brackets in the bed so the TC does not 'float' around. With these you CAN run the tie downs looser, off-road. If you get off-camber, with axles all twisted up, you will torque the frame and hence the bed and camper along with it and put tremendous torque on the tie downs. A lot of seasoned TC'ers miss this one and pull their eye bolts right out of the frame. Ouch.
http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z240/jefe4x4/DSCN1756.jpg
Keep as much weight as possible down low in the truck and camper. Nothing on the roof. No AC. No canoes.
http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z240/jefe4x4/DSC07766-1.jpg
Carry drinking water in gallon jugs in a lower cabinet.
Whittle down the amount of stuff you carry. Every single time we go out we take less, to no detriment. Ah yes, there are only two seasoned/consenting adults to deal with and no pets, so space is not a problem.
I have been slowly working on the truck and camper to make it more off-road worthy and we have pushed the envelope pretty hard. I have found it will take a lot more side hilling than you would think. Maybe weight down low and my extra wide super singles on the back (33-15.50's on 12" wide wheels) giving a rear axle track within 4" inches of a set of dualies help with stability and weight carrying ability.
http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z240/jefe4x4/DSCN1570.jpg
You probably want a winch. The rule of thumb is to get one with 1/2 again the pulling power as the weight of a loaded rig. Our rig weighs 10,300 loaded. Our winch is a 15,000 lb. Warn. Just remember, a winch is the 100% effort when you are stuck. After you've use the shovel, high lift jack, bottle jack, come-a-long, boards and brush, chains, the 100%-er is there, at the ready. Get a 30K lb. recovery strap, a few D rings, a piece of chain with slip hooks and a snatch block. Over my lifetime I've had maybe 400 sticks. Only one took more than 24 hours to self extract. Here is the front 'expo' bumper with homemade extra parts to repel large beasts:
http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z240/jefe4x4/DSCN0015.jpg
I have worked on the suspension, adding 3" spacers on the front and adding another set of secondaries to the rear axle making the result more than a one ton, not in a legal sense, but in defacto carrying capacity. You can see the two thin and one thick springs above the main pack which only come into play when there is a load.
http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z240/jefe4x4/DSCN1583.jpg
We've done some pretty wild things with this hardside: as long as I have camper clearance I'm good to go;
coming down a jeep road in the San Juan's, CO;
http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z240/jefe4x4/DSCN1742.jpg
near the Racetrack in Death Valley:
http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z240/jefe4x4/DSCN1333.jpg
more Death Valley:
http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z240/jefe4x4/DSCN1152.jpg
Pinion Mt. jeep trail in Anza Borrego:
http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z240/jefe4x4/5f5bddff.jpg
stuck in the sand in the Owens Valley:
http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z240/jefe4x4/542cd3dd.jpg
In closing, I think it's kind of a Zen thing, where you "feel" every bump and contortion the TC feels. Thru experience you find out how far you can go.
Good luck in your quest.
regards, as always, jefe

[Redline]

Lots of good replies. While there are certainly limitations when traveling off-highway in a big, long, wide truck, the camper load is a much bigger concern/issue than the truck itself in my book. Just like all the other guys have said.

This old F350 has seen numerous off-highway miles over the past 16 years, most of it relatively lightly loaded (recovery gear, tools, fuel) never enough weight to hurt it's performance. A camper would be a different story.

[bob91yj]

IMO you are going to reduce the usable life of ANY slide in camper taking it off road. My SunLite pop up is actually designed for a mini truck, it's lighter and narrower than most slide in's. Opening the camper door for the first time after traveling down a dirt road is always an adventure....what did I forget to secure adequately, what rattled loose, did the lock on the 'fridge door hold, is the roof air laying in the middle of the floor? To date, my camper has held up better than expected, a shattered jar of pickles laying in the floor is the worst thing I've found.

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w251/bob9iyj/189122_1775156870509_1586948477_1693589_2990279_n. jpg

I had grand ideas about how I was going to use this set up. The reality of it has limited it's use. If I'm covering a lot of ground off road and camping along the way, the Jeep and a tent usually get the call. If I'm base camping and it requires some light/moderate dirt road travel to get there, I'll take the truck/camper and tow the Jeep (either flat tow or in a 24' enclosed trailer).

The only real abuse the truck/camper get is chase truck duties for the Baja 500/1000. It's still mostly pavement travel, but when I do get in the dirt I travel at the fastest possible speed (often times a fast walk), cringing at every rut/bump along the way. The camper is loaded HEAVY for these events. The couch/bed space gets loaded with tools/parts etc.

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w251/bob9iyj/2010baja1000007.jpg

So far (3 years) it has held up to the task without falling apart.

If you decide on going with a slide in camper (hard side or pop up), I'd set your expectations for off road capabilities low and be happy when it outperforms your baseline. Would I buy another slide in...yes, without a doubt. We are happy with the comfort/convenience of ours. Mine would be a little small for your plans. Just enough room for two adults and two Boxer dogs in ours. Adding our grandson to the mix when he's old enough will be interesting...the dogs aren't going to be happy about losing their bed!

[jefe4x4]

Redline,
You made my case with the pic of your F-truck. See the way the frame is twisting and taking the bed with it? I see a lot less of that with my Dodge as the twisting is transfered more to the suspension, but when it does flex, and it does, I take precautions to make sure the tie downs don't get undue torque. The frame of my camper is still rigid and I'd like it to stay that way.
I live in the same town and have talked to Gary and Monika Wescott (Turtle Expedition) and followed their exploits for the last 35 years. They may be the original Expo camper people. They have tried every version of campers from hard sides to pop ups and now use a frame mounted, 3 point attachment system on their custom made camper box. Since it's frame mounted you could not call it a truck camper anymore. If the box was removed there would be no 'pickup' use of the truck. It is one sweet purpose built rig. Everything they have done to 'make-it-work' has come through the school of trial-and-error, and hard knocks. They took a Ford 3/4T P.U. with short, skinny little AT tires on a trans-Siberian trek some years ago and found they needed MUCH bigger tires and clearance, like the ruskies use on their Trans-Siberian winter trucks. They also found that the weight and top clearance savings by using a 4Wheel camper was not worth the leaking, frigid, wind-blown agony. You'll notice now that they have huge tires on an F-550 chassis and completely weather-proof box. I am simply in awe. However, I'm simply not in their league, money wise. I had to do it on the cheap and incrementally.

I notice the 9' Alpenlite mudmony above seems to have a heavy camper with a basement, probably 1200 lbs. heavier than mine. This set up is doomed to fail, off-road. Also, bob91Y with the AC on his little camper; doomed.
We all come from a different vantage point and experience. I was a hard-core jeeper (small j sometimes) since 1965. When we became a family, I switched to larger, family size camping/jeeping rigs. We made a lot of 'way-out-there' trips in those rigs. After the kids were grown and in stage two (1. out of the house. 2. out of my pocket), I bought a pickup to flat tow my rock crawler, then bought a car trailer to haul the jeep. Then, as I was getting older and softer, laying on the ground in the snow or dust at the end of a day's crawling held less appeal. Enter the hard side camper. This is where I started to use the physics of jeeping and apply them to a wondrously improbable off-road, hard side truck camper. The physics of a 1800 lb. white box on the back of a short bed pick up made no sense at all. But, therein lain the challenge. Never shying away from a challenge, I went for it.
All of you that have posted above come from your own personal perspective based on experience. Mine is different.
I already had a leg up, so to speak, as the Lance Lite has tinky little holding tanks: 18 G. fresh; 11 G. Gray; 12 G. Black. This is a good weight-savings if going off-road and we can go, unrefilled/undumped for 5 days (with our Honda 2K genset). More if we pour the dishwater outside and take fewer or shorter showers: even more if we use our portable shower enclosure (it's like a tall, narrow tent) and put the outside shower water on the ground. The only thing we cannot do is extend the number of days of the black water tank. When it starts to come up thru the shower drain, you come to the knowledge that it's non-negotiable.
I set out to:
1. Stabilize the truck to haul the load.
2. Get movable heavy stuff down low.
3. Reduce the weight and bulk of what you take in the camper.
4. Increase the amount of recovery equipment you take. It's O.K.; weight is down low. Once you've been to the frame in this 10,000 pound beast you'll know why.
I did want to add that I have anti-sway bars all around, a power loc rear diff, and an after market power steering brace. When I first got my camper I thought I had made a big mistake since it swayed and wobbled all over the trail. After many suspension upgrades, like Rancho 9K's rr, non-adjustable shocks up front, that problem is gone. I now 'play' with the air pressure when off-road, just like jeepers, running differing lower pressures depending on the surface. This saved us over and over in places like the endless rocks and sand of Death Valley. I would say the three principal failure points folks who have tried to off-road their campers and wound up pulling it apart are;
1. Failure to fine tune (and have adjustability) the suspension's ability to take the load smoothly over any terrain.
2. Failure to adjust the tie downs to the requirements of the current terra firma and the torquing of the bed/frame.
3. too much weight up high. air cond., stuff loaded on the roof, heavy stuff inside the camper stored too high.
The case: I have a good friend who off-roads his hard side. He has the right truck, the right sized small, lite camper, BUT he has a large roof mounted AC, a couple extra propane bottles, a couple large plastic containers with heavy stuff in them like firewood, all 11 feet up. He has pulled all four of his eye bolts through their moorings on the camper box, and it's only a couple years old. A shame.
Another thing I've found is to 'go with the flow' when off-road. In a lot of ways, 'resistance is futile' so I keep things looser, even disconnecting one side of the rr anti-sway bar. I find I get more sway, off-road with the sway bar connected than not, just like the jeepers have found. Connected, if the wheel falls in a hole, it tries to pull the whole rig down into that hole with it. Disconnected is also good as it transmits the torque to the suspension and less to the frame. No air bags. Air bags along with coil springs tend to have an unrelenting problem: recoil or rebound. Even if heavily shock controlled, and I have a used set of air bags I'll give you, there is no getting away from the recoil. (The, "Boinga, boinga, oinga of life") Big, dumb, heavy, clumsy, rusty old leaf springs with all their built in friction are the best for a big heavy rig. They hit a bump, barely respond, and just say, "Huh, what happened?" I've also installed Stable Loads to engage the secondaries sooner. I must say, they really do stabilize the load, one of the few things I've ever bought that worked 'as advertised'. My camper guides keep the box from sliding sideways on the rubber matt transfering the tipping torque sheer down low.
About the only thing I need to do now is to fashion a 3" strap connecting the front bulkhead of the truck bed around the camper to the other side as a 'slide out keeper' like a limiting strap for going up steep grades (so the camper doesn't "slide out the back.....jack").
In the end, a built-up, for off-road, hard side truck camper may not be for you. But, I have stayed at it and molified most of the shortcomings down to an acceptable level. It's similar to the old addage: "Jeeps are not bought, they are built". The good part is: I have incrementally paid for all this; it's all paid for; and works like I thought it would.
regards, as always, jefe

[bob91yj]

I understand the limitations of my set up. I'm somewhat amused that you throw a "doom" prediction on my arrangement based solely on the roof air, yet you have 3' more camper sticking up in the air when my roof is down and 800 pounds give/take.

A little thought went into the roof air addition. The roof of this camper is designed for a roof air...in 2001 when roof air units were heavier. Being designed for a mini truck, the roof is smaller/flexes less than a full size truck model camper would. The Coleman Mach unit I installed is smaller/lighter than most, designed for a pop up. It runs on a Honda 2Kw generator. Is there potential for the roof air to cause premature roof failure...you bet there is! Is it worth the risk for my use...you bet there is! We live in SoCal, not unusual for us to be in 100*+ temps now and again. I'm getting old, my doc says I'm fat, roof air isn't nice to have it's required!

[jefe4x4]

Bob,
You are right; i don't know how much sway you get out of having an AC on top of a pop up. I thought your assessment was right on. My little Lance is about 15" taller than an Apex 8 in the down position. Most of that weight is air and lighter than the metal sissor hardware in the sides and roof of an Apex. My brother has the Apex and he likes it. I like it. I noticed your sig file. Hmmm?
In fact, Fat City was the one who built his rock racer a few years ago. It's still my favorite rock racing rig my bro (John Reynolds aka: JR on the Pirate page.) I use my CJ8 as a chase rig for him on occasion and was actually his spotter on the 1999 Warn Rock Crawling Championship at the Hammers. It is loaded with every eventuality (like the interior pic of your camper) including another spare, parts, 25 lb.CO2 tank, and an on-board, high frequency welder. I like your stretch unlimited. It is the new classic in the Scrambler heritage.
It seems we've trod a lot of the same trails.
regards, as always, jeff reynolds

[bob91yj]

Small world, Eric and Ryan Filar were building Fat City rock crawlers before it was cool to build rock crawlers!:sombrero:

Their latest projects...
http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/57115-FatCity-F150-Pre-runner-Expo-build?highlight=fatcity
http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1082739

Sorry for the thread jack, back on topic!

[Redline]

Redline,
You made my case with the pic of your F-truck. See the way the frame is twisting and taking the bed with it? I see a lot less of that with my Dodge as the twisting is transfered more to the suspension, but when it does flex, and it does, I take precautions to make sure the tie downs don't get undue torque. The frame of my camper is still rigid and I'd like it to stay that way.

Yep, I knew is would make your case, that's why I posted it, as a good example. That long, old Ford flexes much more than my newer Tundra or other newer trucks, but the issue is still there.


I live in the same town and have talked to Gary and Monika Wescott (Turtle Expedition) and followed their exploits for the last 35 years. They may be the original Expo camper people. They have tried every version of campers from hard sides to pop ups and now use a frame mounted, 3 point attachment system on their custom made camper box. Since it's frame mounted you could not call it a truck camper anymore. If the box was removed there would be no 'pickup' use of the truck. It is one sweet purpose built rig. snip...

Yep, some of us also know the Wescotts, and you are correct about their experience and their rigs. :)


No air bags. Air bags along with coil springs tend to have an unrelenting problem: recoil or rebound. Even if heavily shock controlled, and I have a used set of air bags I'll give you, there is no getting away from the recoil. (The, "Boinga, boinga, oinga of life") Big, dumb, heavy, clumsy, rusty old leaf springs with all their built in friction are the best for a big heavy rig.

Though I currently have air springs on two of my 4WDs (not the F350), I agree with your assessment, spring rebound is a problem. I've also experienced the same issue on an off-road trailer, and the issue is exactly the same. The positive is the variable spring rate, but the suspension action does leave something to be desired.


James

[bob91yj]

How much air are you guys running? I don't run my truck that hard, but haven't noticed any real issues with the bags.

I added air bags to my Dmax a year or so ago. I use independent lines to each side. For lack of any better ideas, I usually air the bag up until I'm just off the overload spring, usually 30 +/- psi. Pressures do vary side to side depending on load. So far this has worked pretty well for me/my use. I'm not so concerned with articulation as I am getting down a dirt road to get to a base camp. Currently running Bilstein 5100's, intend to switch to Fox 2.0's one of these days. Biggest reason I'm switching to Fox is I know a guy that can tune them for me.

GM's front suspension is as much about the bumpstops that they ride on as it is the torsion bars/shocks IMO. Cognito steering corection kit/Bilstein 5100's are the only mod on the 's front end other than the RCD lift, which was a mistake, bought it that way. I carry spare tie rod/TRE/hub bearing and an axle shaft (flange to flange), fortunately those parts are all interchangeable side to side.

[bloodyWEST]

How much air are you guys running? I don't run my truck that hard, but haven't noticed any real issues with the bags.

bob91 are you heading down to the B1k this year? i'll be dragging my 97 dodge down to LaPaz.

are your air bags long travel or standard?

i think i have decided against taking my hard side camper down there. just too big/heavy, seems you are always in a hurry while chasing and i don't want to be that limited. i am looking for a camper shell for this specific baja trip.

[saltamontes]

w/ a TC, the interface between truck and camper is very important (as many here have explained).
for example, be careful of the front bumper of the camper as the typical small stock rubber bumpers spread load over a very small area and can dent the front of the truck bed.
also look out for where the TC can impact the bed rail when the camper's bumpers compress too much.
make sure the cabover has 2-3" of clearance otherwise you will hear the TC "tapping" your roof on occasion.
the sliding of the TC is greatly mitigated w/ a rubber mat, but expect that the wheel wells can be impacted by the camper.
make sure to affix some heavy gauge stainless or aluminum to the TC and truck at these impacts points with plenty of high durometer rubber.

torklift frame mounted tie-downs are great and although their overload perch extensions work well, the design can be improved.

we have a f350 4x4 short bed SRW, leveling kit w/ king 2.5 shocks and airbags (max 20psi) and have bombed our northern lite 8-11q down many of the same roads mentioned by jefe above and besides some cupboards opening once in a while, the TC has had zero issues.

[ReadyMedics]

I ran a f250 up until last wk. Topper with full rack system and pre runner bar pulling a off road camper. I loved it but Life changes and I bought a FJ cruiser to wheel and a custom Class C thats 4wd for the family trips. Im just south of you and both are for sale so if your interested shoot me an email.

I loved wheeling it but the long wheel base is a factor. I opted for the trailer as it avoided the height and center of ballance issues and I didnt have to take "my house " with me on trail. i think the 250 is a great truck if you dont mind the limitations of their size. Rob

[jefe4x4]

I thought of a couple more things that I do to make the truck camper work off-road. Firstly, I remove the four corner hand crank screw jacks once the camper is on. I only use the jacks to install and remove the camper from the bed. It's only 130 lbs. of jacks, but I tried leaving them on once and found I scraped on a rock (I don't think I bent it, but that jack is much stiffer cranking now than before) and found I got considerable more sway, side to side than without. The jacks extend up higher on the sides and I think that contributes to raising the center of gravity. Plus, they're kind of like outriggers, swaying back and forth. Secondly, I come from a rock crawling background, (my CJ8's low/low is 130:1) not a desert racing background, so I drive only as fast as the conditions will merit. To a desert racer this is way too slow. Perspective is everything.
I'm reminded of driving into Saline Valley from the south on endless rocky, washboard with Rick 4X4X4 (he has 4 wheel steering on his GM truck camper). It was bone jarring. After a short time we stopped and I aired down: 30 lbs. front, and 28 lbs. rear (on those super singles). We drove on at about 20 mph and knew that wouldn't work. Not enough air was removed, so we stopped again and I lowered the pressure to: 22 lbs. front, and 20 lbs. rear. That was the ticket. The lowered pressure helped the rigs 'float' on the sand/rocks of the road and the tires became part of the suspension, not unlike what jeepers do. It was clear sailing after that with that pesky washboarding only a memory. You must take care to watch for overheating of the tires, but we had no problems. Modern tires are not problematic and a far cry from the 7:00 x 16 rayon bias ply NDCC tires on my first 4WD expowagon, a 1949 Willys Ute Wagon.
It was nice to be on the same page with Saltamontes. I've followed his 'stuff' for years.
Rob, Tell me more about your class Cx4x4 you have. PM me if this is too much hijacking for you.
regards, as always, jefe
Here Rick and I are north of the hot springs in Saline Valley, Death Valley. Rick is way down that endless road somewhere:if you squint, you can see his dust about center pic.
http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z240/jefe4x4/DSCN1164.jpg
Here's Rick's 4x4x4 on a long sandy stretch in Death Valley-just the kind of roads you'll see in Baja, no?
http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z240/jefe4x4/DSCN1151.jpg

[bob91yj]

What load range are your tires? I'm using my truck to chase the 1000 again this year, going to be pounding down the road to Coco's Corner again...this year I'm airing down. I ran a graded road with some recent rains a few weeks ago, aired the tires down to 35, felt real stable, not too much sidewall roll (315/75/16's) so I have plenty of sidewall to roll! Good to know that you took yours down into the low 20's.

[Redline]

How much air are you guys running? I don't run my truck that hard, but haven't noticed any real issues with the bags.

I added air bags to my Dmax a year or so ago. I use independent lines to each side. For lack of any better ideas, I usually air the bag up until I'm just off the overload spring, usually 30 +/- psi. Pressures do vary side to side depending on load. So far this has worked pretty well for me/my use. I'm not so concerned with articulation as I am getting down a dirt road to get to a base camp. snip...

Yes, independent air lines.

Air spring psi varies from the minimum when unloaded to the maximum for a maximum load. I typically choose my pressure based on ride/control and ride height. How the truck drives and ‘handles’ can be very telling.

[jefe4x4]

Bob,
My rear high floatation 33x15.50-R16's on 12" wide rims can take letting more air out than my front 285-75R16's. That's why the difference in pressure. The fronts are E rated at 3450 lbs. The rears are E rated at 3750 lbs. They are pretty stiff, compared to wide sand tires I've had. I have run them for hours at 22 lbs., just like I do with my jeep's 37x13.50' XTerrains, except the jeep is much lighter so I can run on rough roads @ 10 lbs. of air for hours. In sand the jeep tires drop to 6-7 lbs. and sometimes down to 5, like at Pismo. Here's a comparo between the size on the front single and the rear duplex, both unmounted:
http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z240/jefe4x4/DSCN1370.jpg

For you, as a starting point on the sandy loam and rocky travails of Baja, going about 30-35 mph, I would take a stab at: 26-28 lbs., depending on how much sidewall deflection you get. Basically the faster you go, the higher air pressure is needed in the tires, for lots of reasons. Disconnect one side rr anti-sway bar. Adjustable shocks on stiffest setting. My guess is that your lift kit has a stiffer spring rate than a stock setup which does not exactly give you much flex or a leg up, so you could lighten up on the shock setting to compensate. It's ALL trial and error. Except you won't have much time in a chase truck to fiddle around.
regards, as always, jefe

[bob91yj]

Thanks for the input. I'll run my Jeep's as low as 4-6 PSI (beadlocked 36" TSL/SX's) when playing in the rocks. Haven't played with the truck pressures much.

Not a fan of adjustable shocks at all. Truck currently has Bilstein 5100's, torsion bars and leaf springs are factory, lift is accomplished through drop down brackets and blocks <shiver down my spine>. Considering putting some Fox 2.0's on before the trip. Emulsion in the front, reservoirs in the back. The lift was a mistake, I bought the truck with it. Other than larger tires, EVERYTHING else about it is negative. Getting some National or Deaver springs under it and getting rid of the blocks is on the list. I work at a GMC dealership, I see numerous trucks with the same lift. Amazes me that I've never seen one with a broken/cracked block.

Average speed on the dirt roads of Baja in my truck are probably closer to 25MPH than 35MPH. The last time I was on the road in to Coco's, it was at night, lots of race traffic going both ways, 10MPH with occasional bursts to 20MPH! Our crew in the truck behind me was also in a loaded Dmax, but pulling an empty car trailer...now they were miserable!

[NothingClever]

Any reason you don't want to go with a pop-up? They have electric lifts now so Mom and the kids could sit in the cab while you take the minute to raise the roof. Would help a lot with your COG concerns.

[haven]

This crew cab Ford with utility body and popup camper got a lot of thumbs-up when it appeared in these pages a couple of years ago.
http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/12766-A-very-nice-built-FWC-on-Ford-super-duty
(http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/12766-A-very-nice-built-FWC-on-Ford-super-duty)
If you prefer a hard sided camper, there's the XP Camper
http://www.xpcamper.com/

How about a Tiger CX?
http://www.tigervehicles.com

Sportsmobile is an option, too. Diesel, 4x4, off-road suspension.
http://sportsmobile.com/ultimate.html

[bob91yj]

There are a couple more utility body/pop up campers on the forum recently. I think they are an awesome set up, especially for how I use my truck.

http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/83268-Utility-Bed-Install-with-Popup-Camper

Toolboxguy has one too, Ford chassis I think. I'm in the market for a utility bed for mine. My CFO (wife) is onboard with the idea as well, so hopefully it will happen sooner rather than later.
'
No matter what you end up with you're still trying to get an 8000+ pound vehicle down a crappy road. Like I said before, set your expectations low, then you'll be happy when/if it outperforms them!:sombrero:

[dkoug]

Check out the Alaska Campers, heavy but they raise and lower for much improved centre of gravity. Google and you will see how many are very happy with this well proved off road hard wall camper.

dkoug

[Kermit]

Here's Rick's 4x4x4 on a long sandy stretch in Death Valley-just the kind of roads you'll see in Baja, no?
http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z240/jefe4x4/DSCN1151.jpg

Yes and no, that is a great road by Baja standards, roads that see race traffic are beat to Hell and back, and beat to Hell again.

The worst roads can be the older paved ones....they pave them once and never come back to fix the potholes, should just leave them all dirt,
at least you can run a grader or dozer down a dirt road to kinda get it smooth again.

[bob91yj]

If there is commercial value in maintaining a dirt road, sometimes private parties will help maintain it (factories, mines, etc). You'd be amazed at some of the goat paths that they'll run tractor/trailers over on a daily basis. Remember, most of the race course is on public "roads", Trophy Trucks have 3 FEET of rear travel and use it all. Keeping shocks cool is one of the biggest challenges in any class of desert racing, 350*+ or so was normal for our Jeepspeed car.

Kermit is spot on regarding race traffic. A month of pre-running, chase crews, not to mention local traffic and spectators take a huge toll on the roads. If they've had any of the monsoon rains down there like we had in east San Diego/Imperial counties, they'll have run off ruts adding to the mix. Always an adventure!

[Kermit]

Kermit is spot on regarding race traffic. A month of pre-running, chase crews, not to mention local traffic and spectators take a huge toll on the roads. If they've had any of the monsoon rains down there like we had in east San Diego/Imperial counties, they'll have run off ruts adding to the mix. Always an adventure!

The run off holes on the sides of the road are always fun encountering them at speed...sometimes marked with rocks and dead cactus branches by the locals...my favorite sections are, when they were were going to put in a bridge but never did or the bridge was there but was washed away and never fixed it, but left the drop off there...yeah those are wicked fun!

Speaking of Baja. Abreojos is an interesting little fishing town, I am convinced that the people that live there,
are descendants from land pirates...there is an old lighthouse quite a ways in from shore. Story has it, that when the Russians
came to fish out the abalone in the early 1900's, that the town's people erected the light house inland to crash their ships on the rocks, at least that is
what the drunk hotel owner told us...that was an interesting over-night stay to say the least.

[jefe4x4]

Poor Jeff Nelson. The OP asked a simple question about a hard side camper's viability and survivability off road, which I thought was a valid one, and it comes to this. These user forums are all about a lot of personal opinion and a few facts. Sometimes, as hard as we pound, the round peg just doesn't fit in a square hole. My mea culpa is that I have supervised a few thread highjacks myself. My final thought is that in all the issues discussed above, form follows function.
regards, as always, jefe

[bob91yj]

The conversation has drifted around a bit, but for the most part it stayed relative to taking a truck/slide in camper off road.

[Kermit]

Poor Jeff Nelson. The OP asked a simple question about a hard side camper's viability and survivability off road, which I thought was a valid one, and it comes to this. These user forums are all about a lot of personal opinion and a few facts. Sometimes, as hard as we pound, the round peg just doesn't fit in a square hole. My mea culpa is that I have supervised a few thread highjacks myself. My final thought is that in all the issues discussed above, form follows function.
regards, as always, jefe

I dunno, get a group of people talking no matter where the locale is nor the subject matter, the conversation is going to bounce around...then usually there is a
pause, and someone will spout up, "what were we talking about again?" usually it is mostly rubbish, then again you might learn something new.

As for hard-side campers off road...American made slide-ins with except about 3 manufactures, have nothing on what is being made in Europe, OZ, and Africa.

I have seen hard-sides that barely go off road and are falling apart no long after purchase. Full composite structures seem better suited than panel over frame construction. Sure all personal opinion...

YMMV

I would say if you really want a vehicle/camper combo that will take a pounding, get something like what Maltec of Germany builds.

124565

[Plannerman]

http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/1915-not-for-USA-Ford-SORP

[Truck Camper Porn]

Yeah I think she could take a pounding. Where do I find one of those?

[Kermit]

Yeah I think she could take a pounding. Where do I find one of those?

The camper or the Ford?

If it is the camper here you go: http://www.maltec.org/

[Regcabguy]

If you've got the buckeroos,Marc's offering is hard to beat. www.xpcamper.com.

[Kermit]

If you've got the buckeroos,Marc's offering is hard to beat. www.xpcamper.com.

His campers are so sweet.