MTB, anyone riding a 29er?

[dieselcruiserhead]

Thinking of making the plunge.. I'm 6'5 with long legs so I figured it might fit well as well and roll over a lot more... I'm saving my pennies to finally move up to a higher end bike for my "trail bike," I have my eyes on a Turner Sultan... http://www.turnerbikes.com/2007/sultan.html That or a Ventana El Rey which are very similar bikes...

Or might do a 5" 26er bike, on the fence and really thinking hard about it. Rode hard last night and kept thinking how nice it must be to roll over more of this stuff... Going to demo a 29er single speed later the week (SS is the only thing in town that is 29er that I can use, but am psyched to try a trail SS too). My townie geared s-works hard tail is a SS but again I ride in town only...

Riding is typcial southwest. Around here in the mountains mostly dry, rocky, rutty, etc.. But varies as much as the terrain does here in Utah (a lot!)... Some moisture though particularly in the fall right now. Then want to go down and be able to tackle Moab and Fruita and Gooseberry and some of the great southwest Colorado/Utah rides... So this is why I'm thinking ideally looking for something borderline AM that I will ride XC.

I what I like about the 29er designs is they have geometry more like a XC bike that I ride, they have a more efficient 4" design but with the larger 29er wheels, feels and handles like a 5" supposedly, and has more XC type geometry but can behave like an all mountain... Supposedly the Turner has this more dialed than the Ventana in this case, for some reason the Turner is more AM feeling and suspension of the Ventana is stiffer and more XC like.. Supposedly the Turner feels deep and 5"-like which is what I like...

For the other higher end 29ers there is Lenz, Niner, and Specialized has a 29er stumpjumper coming out too (with oddly Ventana-like angles)... Not too interested in the specialized (even though that is what I ride, I have two acually) because of hte price versus the boutique brand Ventana and Turner bikes... These are also super laterally stiff in their designs which I like a lot too. And light of course..

Thoughts and/or comments?

[DaveInDenver]

I personally didn't care for it, but I'm sort of weird shape and I get tire rubbing on my shoes. A friend of mine that did the White Rim last month with me rides a Salsa Dos Niner and another friend of mine who is doing 24hrs of Moab this weekend with me rides a Lenzsport Leviathan. They both love theirs. I can see benefits and downsides, so maybe I'll give another chance now that the technology has come a ways further. Personally I think this Pacenti 650b wheel has merit. This is a 27.5" wheel that gains most of the rolling and traction benefits of the 29" with the better handling of a 26" wheel. Dirt Rag the past couple of issues has been talking more about the 29" and 650b stuff.

SS... I ride a 26" SS (a 1998 Rhygin, I've been on a SS for a while now) and to make it useful here I run 34x21 gearing and a front shock. The gearing, yeah my knees hurt otherwise. But they are a ton of fun, but I've never been able to fully commit as my only bike. Maybe I'm not soul enough or whatever, but I like my dual squishy (I ride a Blur LT mostly).

[Flounder]

I've been on a 29er single speed for about a year now. Absolutely love it. There are some 29er myths that need correction:

Myth: 29ers don't work on technical trails.
Truth: They actually work great on technical trails. As long as you can keep even modest forward motion, the wheels want to roll over everything. On techy climbs, that front wheel seems to want to hold a line really well and resists deflecting off every obstical.

Myth: 29ers are for fast fire roads
Truth: 29ers maximize even slow speed momentum. They work great on tight, twisty, technical single track as long as you maintain at least a walking pace. Their advantage is almost LESS on fire roads.

Myth: 29ers accellerate slowly and descellerate rapidly in part due to the additional weight.
Truth: Bunk. Lab studies have proven that the small added weight in rotational components isn't a big deal since bicycle accellerations are so small. i.e. 2mph to 7mph and not 0-60mph. Those big wheels will reach speed as quickly as 26" wheels given the same wattage input.

Myth: 29ers handle like dump trucks
Truth: They can handle great, but you have to be VERY careful which 29er you get. The tail end on many 29ers gets long and you end up clipping your rear wheel mid/inner turn. Short stays are critical on a 29er to keep the handling tight. Most full sus 29ers get a little long in the tail so that does make for a truckish handling bike. Not many people make a tight rear end on a full sus 29er.

Myth: 29ers have less traction
Truth: The inverse is true. The larger diameter actually increases the footprint of the tire by 8%, primarily in length which gives 29ers fantastic traction. You feel that on hard pressed turns and as the rear wheel hooks up.

Myth: 29ers are for big guys
Truth: Several guys I ride with are sub 5'10" and rock out on 29ers.

Myth: 29ers put the rider too high
Truth: That's just BS spawn by people who don't understand frame building 101. The BB height can be as high or low as a 26" wheeled bike.

29ers are awesome. I've been racing XC for 20 years and 29ers make for fantastic rides. One thing to mention - 29ers love momentum, even at 2mph. As such, a single speed in a 29er format is a thing of beauty. The one gear forces you to maintain proper riding finesse and to hold momentum. Those wheels love that.

Drawbacks: Sure, with all things there are compromises. If you like big drops, huge hits and frequently need to launch over large logs, rocks or old ladies, those wheels do feel pretty earth bound sometimes. The slightly longer wheel base makes the front wheel a little heavy. I wouldn't take on Vancouver trails with a 29er, but for fast, technical single track.....29ers rock.

I love mine. I'll never go back to 26" hoops. Just think of 28" tires on a Jeep vs 33" tires. Bigger wheels just roll over stuff better.

Now this is my opinion - Best inventions for cycling during my 22 years of racing: Clipless pedals, suspension forks, carbon fiber road wheels, 29 inch mountain wheels.

[dieselcruiserhead]

Cool :)

I am also intrigued by the 27.5 thing too and think it has a lot of merit too... Can't wait to get out and try it. Once this is bought/built my Stumpy will become the SS, probably a lot like yours, suspension forked but probably a little faster gearing as I ride a lot of uphill in the middle ring anyway.. Knees hurt too but I have 37" of inseam to push :)

[Pokey]

The main issue i found with the 29er tires is the wheel strength. at 220+lbs- you really need to build a stout tire to not flex under hard corners,etc.

I ended up using some velocity rims which are very strong vertically--but still flexed horizontally quite a bit unless you went to monster straight guage spokes. mavic also makes a beefy tandem 29er rim that i tried which was somewhat better--but again very heavy and sluggish for an xc bike.

The nice thing about the 29er is rollover and the ability to lower your tire pressure due to the larger volumes.......it makes hooking up in corners real nice for us bigger guys.

The other nicety is that Fox is now going to be making a 29er fork (one of the main reasons i held off initially).

If you are tough on wheels---the 29er will have to be built like a tank compared to a 26" rim. If you try to build them light--they just flex alot and thats even trying to use the DT Blades which can be laced suuuuper tight and stiff.

Im personally waiting for the front hubs to go wider--(ala 130 spacing.) before entering the 29er market. But that will take some time as forks must change to0. with the wider spacing---the flex can be limited enough to equal the strength of a 26" wheel.....but fork companies wont be doing that anytime soon.

[Pokey]

also- just looked at the Turner specs----waaay too long a chainstay and the wheelbase on the xxl is crazy long. That wont be great in any kind of techy tight stuff. By comparison-the patron and el ray are both much shorter in wheelbase---but at 6'5--unless your torso is on the short-side--they might not be long enough in the tt.

[Pokey]

If you do much climbing or like techy climbing--you owe it to yourself to try out the Mavericks. They outclimb anything and are very smooth over the chop due to the wheel path. I think the newest 5" comes in a xl size as well but i havent checked out specs. (my girlfriend has the 1st gen. 5" called the 7.5- i think the new ones are Durance and Matic.)

I think you hit the nail on the head in terms of "what and where you ride" which shoudl probably dictate which way to look.

What kind of elevation gain do you typically get in a ride? how bout elev descent? Big drops-3' plus frequent?seldom? Do you like to pick thru techy chop and finesse or build up a ton of speed-point and blast thru with lots of momentum?

[Skylinerider]

As tall as you are a 29er may be exactly what your looking for, but as others have brought up, the 29" wheels weigh more, and have to be built much more stout to resist bending. You won't get as much travel out of a fork designed for 29" wheels, and you will have to make adjustments in how you ride on tight single track to accomodate those bigger wheels, but just being aware of where your wheels are, and turn a little sooner is really all it takes.

Oh, and I REALLY wish I had the funds for a Maverick Durance.

[DaveInDenver]

Flounder touches on some of the points that I think are important when considering a 29er bike.

First, it needs to be pointed out that a 700c or 29er wheel is no more designed from the ground up for the purpose than was the 26" itself. The original mountain bikes picked 26" wheels because they happen to have old Schwinn clunkers laying around, just like 29er MTB guys used that size because they had road and CX bike rims to start with. Actually even the 650b wheel size is based on a touring wheel often found in Europe. My point here is that both the 26" and 29er wheel size were picked for convenience primarily over any one benefit.

So the upsides on a 29er are momentum and contact patch. The downsides are weight and frame geometry. Everything is compromise. Ride a few, see if you like it and go with it should it work. But try to block out the desire to be different just like everyone else. My experiences with a 29er don't indicate that it will be a benefit to me, others feel different. I think a hardtail makes a lot of sense built around a 29er wheel, so if I won the lottery I would definitely replace my 10 year old SS with a 29er SS. But, in the realm of FS, when you get into the 3" or 4" full suspension my conclusion is that frame geometry and how I fit on the bike become less good. I like my Blur LT, which is a ~5" bike, but it's too tall and long for some trails (I don't huck, I do everything possible to stay firmly planted on terra firma). But I saved for a few years back in 2003 to get and so I'm in for the long haul. None-the-less, a 4", 29er bike would suffer from many of the same problems. This is why I'm VERY interested in these 650b bikes in a 3~4" XC configuration.

Do some MTBR searches, there's LOTS and LOTS of threads about 26 vs 29 wheels. There is also a whole lot of hype and misinformation. The fact is that a 29" wheel will always be heavier than an equivalent 26" wheel. This dictates that it will also accelerate slower and be less agile. That is just kinematics. But it will also track straighter and roll over more stuff easier. There is nothing magical about any of this, it's what works for you. Our trails here in the Front Range have lots of switchbacks and sometimes I'm at the limit getting around them. I have no problem on a 17.5" Rhygin hardtail with a 40.5" wheelbase, 80mm Manitou Black Super Air, 72/73 head/seat angles, 16.5" stays. My Blur LT is a large and with the Fox Vanilla 140mm it's got about a 43.5" wheelbase, 70/73 head/seat angles, 17.25" stays and it's sometimes like steering a cargo ship around switchbacks. A 29er is not going to have significantly less wheelbase and will have long chainstays. A slightly steeper head angle would help and certainly the Blur LT w/ a 5.5" fork is not gonna to be a super sketchy handling bike. My point here is that adding a 29" wheel to the mix would only make it less agile on switchbacks. On a fire road or hitting things straight on, definitely a benefit to a 29er. Traction, another upside. But don't forget that traction increases means rolling resistance is also going up, this is important for slugs like me. ;-)

Also don't forget that just like changing wheel sizes on your truck going from a 26" wheel to a 29" will require a gear change. If you are running a typical drivetrain, say 175mm cranks, 22/32/44 chainrings, a 11-34 cassette, you have a range of about 17 to 104 gear inches on a 26" wheel. Just switching to a 29" wheel without messing with the drivetrain your gearing changes to a low of 19 to a high of 116 gear inches. So what, right? Well now your granny on the 29" bike is like riding in at least second gear (or maybe third depending on the cassette). It would be like using a 30 tooth rear/22 tooth front low on a 26" bike. So part of the reason 29" bike seem faster is because all of your gearing goes up. If you are a super athlete like Flounder, pushing the higher gears is probably trivial. Me, just a working stiff trying to fit in ride when I can, I felt it. On a singlespeed this is less of an issue because it's easy to get a gearing that works, you stand a lot and (at least me) walk plenty. Doesn't hurt that my SS weighs about 8 pounds less than the Blur... But on a geared bike you are limited to a 34 tooth cassette, although you might be able to do a 20 tooth front granny. Just something to think about.

[Flounder]

This might be the most civil, calm headed discussion on 29ers I've ever seen on the web. Weird. Usually, by the 3rd post someone is using profanity. It often gets into a circle talking excersize.

I've been building my own wheels since the 80s. I find it pretty easy to build sturdy wheels. I mean heck, I used to race match sprints and the flying kilo on the velodrome. Those were the same sized wheels and they took on HUGE power with little flex. There are some great 29er rims out there. I'm actually really impressed with the cheapie Bontrager wheels I picked up last spring. I'm a big rider for an elite racer at 168lbs but my wheels don't flex enough to be noticed.

Dave is dead on about the agility factor. That big front wheel seems a little sluggish in slow, rapid turning situations. That's one of the things I like about it. You pick a line and she holds it. If you're a long stem rider, the big front wheel effect is even worse. Switchbacks can be a little tricky.

Wheel weight is a wierdy. There are dozens of studies out there now disproving the notion that "heavier" bike wheels accellerate slowly and that rotational weight is more critical than static weight. The overall theory is sound, but when tested on bicycles the reality is, heavy wheels don't really retard accellerations too much, if at all. Many of us in the road race circles are switching to big, fat aero wheels that weigh as much as 700 grams heavier than our "light" wheels with no accelleration penalties....physically. Mentally, my head wants to think heavy bike wheels are slow. This has to do with the fact a heavy wheel and a light wheel are only seperated by a few hundred grams. We're talking a few hundred grams under a bike/rider combo that often tips 100,000 grams. Bicycle accellerations are mild, even in velodrome or road racing, but certainly in mountain biking. The wattage output of a rider in the world of machines is teeny. Now, if this were a drag bike going from 0-100mph, this would all be different.

Weight in general still counts with regard to watts vs weight on climbs. But heck....I'll save the weight weenie stuff for the road. Even there, 1 less pound on a 60 minute climb usually only saves a rider 22 seconds at a given wattage. As for rotational weight, the addition of 300 grams in the rim/tire is a proven non-issue. In a 29er the advantage is increased traction. On a road wheel it's usually increased aerodynamics. So, any minor (if any) accelleration penalties are offset by other gains.

This is a long way of saying the bike specific physics behind heavier 29er wheels is a moot point. I will agree they are less agile or maybe more stable, but slower? Not according to Boston University and the Cycling Academy of Switzerland and a host of others.

If you test ride a 29er, keep in mind they feel totally bizarre for a few days. They do take getting used to. I don't give much credo to those who say, "I rode my buddies for a few miles and hated it." Like any bike change it takes time to adjust to.

[Flounder]

One other drawback. Dropping my front wheel off large drops is for some reason less comforting on my 29er. Could be just the fit of my particular 29er, but I can't scoot back far enough over the rear wheel to feel like I get that big wheel way out in front of me on big drops.

The fork travel is also unimpressive, but that doesn't bother me too much. I was actually getting annoyed with the 100+ mm of travel on my Fuel.

[ccrider]

Yeah, Flounder summed it all up with the 29er myths.
Anybody want to purchase a WTB Phoenix, full XTR hardtail so I can get myself another 29er as I will likely not ride a 26 inch wheel bike again !

[Flounder]

I should probably admit to everyone that last fall I was a DIE HARD full suspension advocate and loved, loved, loved each and every gear I had. I thought 29" wheels were just stupid. Period.

A year later, I'm neglecting the other 4 mountain bikes I have and spending 6 hours a week on my SS 29er hard tail. But....it gets worse....most of the time I leave my fork locked. I still like a sus fork, but I can even understand why some dudes ride static.

We ride pretty often with guys on multi geared full sus 26" rigs. Just two nights ago my other SS29er bud and I went out with three guys on Blurs, Fuels and Yeti full sus rigs. We beat them going up. We stayed with them going down. We even stopped to repair a tweaked derailleur.

One thing I really love about 29er single speeds is how graceful they are on sweeping single track and how quiet they are. Just the sound of tires. No chain slapping around feeling clunky. I love it.

And to be even more of an odd ball....I ride a 34x24 on my 29er with a ROTOR RING ovalized ring (NOT LIKE BIO-PACE) which translates to about a 34x21 on a 26" bike. I climb everything I do with my Fuel or other geared bikes. No walking.

Okay....I'll stop now. I love my 29er but absolutely understand why some prefer other set ups.

[bigreen505]

It's funny, I never really understood what the noise was about, 29ers seem to make sense to me, though I have never ridden one. I want a FS 29er for my next ride.

Dave, good point on the gearing, I never considered that. Can you get a 20t front chain ring? I'm not that strong and my current low gear is 22x32 and it is definitely not enough considering I can just about run my bike as a single speed in that gear and I'm always wishing for lower (old 8-speed stuff).

Are the Trek 69er's out yet (29 in front, 26 in back). Seems a little nuts to me, but I will wait until I ride it to pass judgment.

You might consider reading Lennard Zinn's article on 29ers (http://zinncycles.com/wheels29.aspx) and if you are tall, you might consider a custom frame from him.

[bigreen505]

And to be even more of an odd ball....I ride a 34x24 on my 29er with a ROTOR RING ovalized ring (NOT LIKE BIO-PACE) which translates to about a 34x21 on a 26" bike.

Quick hijack -- how do you like the rotor rings? I've been considering a set for the road bike for a while.

[Joaquin Suave]

I ride a 29'er. Not so much off-road though.

[Skylinerider]

Are the Trek 69er's out yet (29 in front, 26 in back). Seems a little nuts to me, but I will wait until I ride it to pass judgment.



Not a Trek, but here (http://www.mountainbiketales.com/reviews/carver96er.htm) is a review of the carver 96'r

[DaveInDenver]

And to be even more of an odd ball....I ride a 34x24 on my 29er with a ROTOR RING ovalized ring (NOT LIKE BIO-PACE) which translates to about a 34x21 on a 26" bike. I climb everything I do with my Fuel or other geared bikes. No walking.

Exactly the gearing I ride on my SS. I still walk. But then again our typical after work ride looks pretty much like a shark tooth with a 3 or 4 mile, 12% grade on each side.

[dieselcruiserhead]

cool great posts responses here, especially and the info from Flounder and Dave, thanks guys...

OK here is a short novel / all of my info:

Body/torso/frame size: I am tall with long legs and arms, short torso.. I actually ride a XL 21" typically not a XXL 23", because of the short torso. In a perfect world I'd like a 23" seattube with a 21" sized frame because I do have to have the seat tube out considerably. I prefer the smaller frames for increased maneuverability and shorter wheelbase.

Sherwood at Ventana offered to build one of these for only $150 more... And I have a deal with Ventana (cost) because of some tradeout I do with a good friend who is a Ventana dealer and my local bike shop.. Trying to get the same deal with Turner as I like the frame design a little more.

I would fit and do fine with a traditional 23" frame but I like the smaller frame because of maneuverability and wheel base. In fact this whole discussion for me started with a wheelbase discussion about 2-3 weeks ago. I have been planning to step up to full suspension for next year all this year, but didn't know how I was going to do it... But I started thinking about keeping the front end down on my relatively-small-for-me-but-the-largest-size-they-make 21" stumpjumper. Which again I love. It is super stable and nimble and climbs like a goat, great all mountain bike.

The Sultan has a 1" longer virtual top tube which I think is a plus. It has 73" seat tube and 71" steep head angle for more agile turning, which is also same as the Stump Jumper which is a plus. Dave Turner's philosphy for the 29er is long frame short stem to give a little more umph to the big tire turning around.. Then use wide bars (which I already use) for stability and leverage. Which if I really wanted to do I'd get the 23" frame and a 70mm stem but am going to go with the 21" frame (with the 25.5 top tube) and probably a 90mm stem (versus my current setup, which I like a lot, that is a 24.3 top tube and a 120mm stem). I really like the 73/71 setup and I like that you can get more All-Mountain-like handling with the 29ers with a steeper steerer tube because of the higher axles.

And it does all make sense and I do think a lot about it in off-road terms.. Why 35" tires wheel so much better than 33" tires on hard terrain (similar deal, I never ever imagined I would end up on 35s which seem HUGE to me even today sometimes). And gearing, and ability to roll over stuff...

--------

RE wheel base: It occurred to me how just 1” or maybe 2” more in the rear would help me a lot with keeping the front end down. I think if I were an inch or two shorter then it would be a lot easier. And I do a good job of keeping it down with technique. But with super steep technicals, because I basically have the seat post maxed out, I do spin out a little more. But it turns out the Ventanas and Turners both have 2” more wheelbase, in both the 26er 5” and 29er 4” models. About perfect I figure, ~45” versus what I am at now, 43”. So I literally think it would be perfect. I would actually probably get me the XXL frame actually because “technically” it would fit me better, but I am not a fan of the ginormous wheel base – plus the big wheels.. It would be great on flats but a nightmare on switchbacks which yes we have plenty of…

So I have actually been pretty active on MTB and if you want to check you can follow my transition into my rational of this particular bike and 29er. Here is a good one: teetering on the brink of XXL (http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=345262). And everyone is saying do with the larger frame. Which nice to get some nice reasonable comments from you guys to reassure where my mind is. I am about 70-80% sold on the 29ers, but again will hop on one maybe even tonight or this weekend sometime hopefully.

Terrain wise and drops and wheel strength: I am at 225ish up to 235-240 loaded. So definitely heavier. So yes wheel strength is a big deal, I was planning on building maybe even a 36 spoke wheel but something that will be strong but overall weight is a big deal. I’m shooting for 27-28 lbs ideally. I currently do not do larger drops (1-2’ max so far as the terrain dictates) and am much more XC oriented… But you never know especially as I ride more… And again switch backs here in Park City so the smaller WB helps a lot here….

I have been reading a lot about the different bikes and frames and performance and from what I’ve read this Turner Sultan seems killer.. And again finally I am intrigued by the 27.5” idea too, I have this crazy idea to maybe try 27.5” on that frame (as it has the geometry I like a little more versus the 5” 26er bikes) and the correct wheelbase and everything… Then run a 26er fork like a 140mm Talas or something like that, as the 29ers are lacking in the fork department currently unless the 100mm Fox does pan out…

Thanks guys!

[DaveInDenver]

Other than making sure to have good, solid wheels built up, I think you'll find a 29er will be a pretty decent fit for you. I really do.

BTW, good blog about 26 vs 29 and just one guy's results:
http://teamhealthfx.com/blogs/dave_harris/archive/category/1032.aspx

[DaveInDenver]

unless the 100mm Fox does pan out…
Do you mean the Fox F29?

11144

BTW, you probably know Terry Holben, right? He's the guy who rode White Rim with me on his Dos Niner... He loves that bike, couldn't get him to stop talking about it.

[dieselcruiserhead]

No kidding... Yes Terry and I talk all the time, but truthfully I don't even think I know what he looks like.. Seems like a total chararacter... I'm sort of his go to FAQ on many things FJ55 and diesel even though 98% of the time he could/should/does figure everything out on his own... Anyway, yes the F29.. Looks great but as its a new shock see how it pans out.. But it is a Fox so I imagine probably fine. Will also hopefully let costs go down and availability up over time as there are some weird distribution issues with it right now for a year or so I was told...

[DaveInDenver]

No kidding... Yes Terry and I talk all the time, but truthfully I don't even think I know what he looks like.. Seems like a total chararacter... I'm sort of his go to FAQ on many things FJ55 and diesel even though 98% of the time he could/should/does figure everything out on his own... Anyway, yes the F29.. Looks great but as its a new shock see how it pans out.. But it is a Fox so I imagine probably fine. Will also hopefully let costs go down and availability up over time as there are some weird distribution issues with it right now for a year or so I was told...
Fox is a very conservative company, the shock is probably just a fine product. I've had three Fox forks and despite about 6 years spanning their manufacture, the changes are incremental and pretty obviously linear. They are expensive, though, that much is for sure. But SoCal made, awesome support, well constructed. The Float RLC100 on my hardtail is from 2002 and it's been PUSH'd, but still going strong. If it was a 120mm travel, it would be on the Blur...

[Funrover]

The only problems I have with 29's!!

Finding tires/tubes ( however they are becoming more popular so that won't be a problem for long)

The type of rding I do a lot of, drops, big rovks. hops, etc - I don't think they have a rim strong enough yet...that and I am 270 lbs!

I rode one, while I did find it to be a very nice bike, it is not for me!! I will stick to my 26" as they develop a little more! I do see potential in the future though!

[MountainBiker]

Fox .... They are expensive, though, that much is for sure. But SoCal made, awesome support, well constructed.
I think you mean Central California in Watsonville. Only the Baja truck and buggy suspension stuff is made in SoCal AFAIK.

[DaveInDenver]

I think you mean Central California in Watsonville. Only the Baja truck and buggy suspension stuff is made in SoCal AFAIK.
So it is, that Watsonville is near SF. Never looked it up until you mentioned it, just always assumed it was somewhere near LA or somethin'.

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&time=&date=&ttype=&q=Watsonville,+CA+95076&ie=UTF8&ll=36.971838,-121.665344&spn=0.712053,1.149445&z=10&om=1

[Joaquin Suave]

I have several pair of new Sun Ryno-Lite 29" (700C) x 27mm wide rims that I'll sell cheap cheap.

PM me if interested.

Also, between WTB & Schwalbe, one should never be concerned about tire availability.The 700c format was around long before 26".

[Flounder]

Are the Trek 69er's out yet (29 in front, 26 in back). Seems a little nuts to me, but I will wait until I ride it to pass judgment.

You might consider reading Lennard Zinn's article on 29ers (http://zinncycles.com/wheels29.aspx) and if you are tall, you might consider a custom frame from him.

The 69ers are out, but not all too common. The theory is sound. The front wheel on a 29er feels heavy because of the slightly longer wheel base. Using a smaller rear wheel allows the stays to be snugged up, putting the rear wheel under your booty. That in turn makes the front wheel easier to lift. Probably rides great. Necessary? Maybe not. Cannondale did the same thing in the mid 80s with the Beast of the East with 24 and 26 inch wheels.

With regard to wheel strength - There are far, far, far more guys that ride poorly than there are weak wheels. When I managed a shop (for 15 years) guys would come in with a ruined hoop and say, "I ride hard...blah, blah, blah." My retort to myself, "you ride poorly." I ride with a dude that is 200lbs of single track silk. He hits the same stuff everyone else does and just as fast, but his bike is alway primo. I'm the same way, but probably make more mistakes. Even so, my wheel failures (2 in 22 years) are within reason.

[Flounder]

Quick hijack -- how do you like the rotor rings? I've been considering a set for the road bike for a while.
I put them on my road bikes early last season. I dig'em. They don't shift poorly, but not real awesome. It took a few rides to get used to them. There's not much in terms of a negative effect, but the gains are minor as well. I have pretty solid pedal technique, compliments of many years of good coaching. I find I spin them smoothly but some find them a little choppy. Good for low rpm, high leverage strokes like cresting hills, exiting corners, etc. On my SS they RULE! They're worth a try.

They really are nothing like Bio-Pace. That stuff sucked.

[fisher205]

I did my first Mt Bike race in 1985 back in the days when I said that it was just a fad. I've had my Fisher Mt Tam hard tail since 2002 and I've had a Fisher 293 since 2005.

last Thurs I did ride the New Fishers w/ the HiFI geometery. One was a Hifi deluxe 26 inch and one was a HiFi Deluxxe 29er, We did a bunch of switching back and forth on the Tinton Trail. The 29er felt exactly like my old 293 until the switchbacks then it tracked like a short bike, and now I want one. The 26 was super tight and great climbing but it just confirmed that I will never go back to 26 inch wheels. I had to regear my 29ers w/raceface crank and 20tooth granny. (maybe old age?). The HiFi 29 seemed to be geared right stock and I would leave the gearing alone. I would recommend that you ride a 29 for a while. They do have a different feel. - Brad

[dieselcruiserhead]

I had a fun night, took out the demo 29er single speed... Gary Fisher Hardtail, nice Reba air shock, large frame so too small for me and a little awkward feeling. Was also my first foray into SS too so tough to be scientific about it because of so many variables. Had to have the super long seat tube extended way out to fit me. And right when I got the groove of things about 50 minutes out towards some unreal local terrain I was really looking forward to, pop, and I snapped the chain. Did some dinking around but too fried to repair. Well maintained bike and they let me take it out for free so I volunteered to pony up for a chain for the bike though it may have been toast beforehand, which the shop appreciated (and I appreciate them). Or maybe the 225 lb 37" inseam of me was too much stress, I dunno. I was working the bike very very hard, really pressing down against it to keep my momentum on the climbs but it was a nice feeling... Gearing was 32 front 20 rear with the 29er, probably too fast IMO, I feel like even one tooth slower might have been better climbing gear but again I am a novice SSer... I felt like this was the fastest possible gear that is still ridable on trails for this bike... So spent a lot of time up as to be expected but felt like I did pretty well considering...

I really see why 29er in single speed is popular, when I was up, in many cases was leaning way forward.. ...things that would spin out my stumpjumper easily; and still had killer traction.. There was really one section of loose pebbles on the ride that was the only place that gave me a little trouble. And I didn't have to pick my lines too carefully over the light loose stuff on the churning uphills, just rolled over everything whereas if I were geared this same way (really fast IMO as said above) in 26er, I feel that I would have spun out easily... I enjoy picking my lines on the flats and downhills but sometimes when going uphill I sort of space out and focus on the climb rather than the rocks and this was nice, and normally I get bounced around a lot on the 26er...

Anyway, RE the wheels specifically, I felt like they definitely have their merits and they really do cruise over everything with ease. You can definitely feel the gyroscope of the wheels particularly when turning. I didn't feel that it was hard to move them around at all, just 'slightly different feeling' and probably something that would wear off quickly.. They didn't feel too big under me at all... And over rocky terrain they were pretty solid and I really did like the increased speed and smoothness on the flats and light descents. With this bike I was able to pick very good and smooth lines and really felt good. Was not hard to maneuver at all. Even getting little air here and there and they really felt solid even in this department... It even felt almost a little "plush" considering the rigid aluminum hardtail frame of the Fisher, and I was not expecting this. Getting the bike through tight areas was not too hard either but I think I had a similar wheelbase to what I already have with this large frame. I zipped around quite a few tight switchbacks with no issues at all...

My complaint as can be expected is that yes the wheels felt really sloppy laterally, not a happy camper at all in that department. I was zipping back and forth almost like a skier bouncing, on a pavement downhill on the way home and you could really feel it shifting laterally underneath... I do this with my 26er all the time and never felt the feeling of sloppiness in the wheels. In this department, they really did feel rinky-dink. But I also speculate this was the wheel build. I didn't closely inspect the wheel setup specifically other than some sort of Bontrager rims, possibly spokes too loose I dunno, and the spoke setup was (I forget the term) not direct but overlapping... And again felt "loose." I got sort of a little angry when I returned the bike the tech was looking at me like I was crazy when I said the wheels didn't feel stiff laterally like I was from Mars..

But anyway going to take it out again hopefully this weekend or next week some time and keep on playing.. There are some other local guys that are also down at 24 hours this weekend also (a shop in Provo run by a guy named Racer, and they all tall and swear by 29ers) and he has some full suspension rigs and geared rigs in my size that I am eager to try out...

Then on the way back from the LBS I pedaled my old bike home and of course it felt just super solid and the more rigid wheels felt great. And they held speed and felt so solid, even on a inexpensive build, as I was hopping over curbs and such. Did feel nice to be back on my bike... But again, so many variables particularly the ill-fitting frame... So in that regard I also look forward to riding a nicely built 29er rather than a rental bike so am going to keep on truckin and hopefully come to a consensus...

:beer:

[fisher205]

I guess I have never felt a problem with the lateral stiffness on any of my wheel sets. I have a set of radial laced road wheels with cycl cross tires on my hard tail right now. I don't push them them very hard but I haven't felt them give. I am no light weight anymore either at 6' and 210. Having a set of road wheels on them makes a fun bike.

When I first got my full suspension I thought it had a lowered bottom bracket because I was hitting the pedals in a lot places that I hadn't had a problem before. I then realizied that I hadn't been able to pedal those sections before because they were too rough.

[MountainBiker]

Lateral stiffness: Some people have a feel for it, and some don't. Of course weight and height play a factor as well, since you can get more lateral loading on the wheels.

I haven't ridden a 9'er more than a few hundred yards, but as a long time rider of motorcycles, bicycles and being a mechanical design engineer, I have an opinion! :gunt:

-a 9-6'er sounds like a good idea, the rear tire can get over most stuff, it's the front one that really needs to be larger. This also gives more room for suspension linkage without making the chainstays too long
-a 9'er fork will also suffer from more lateral flex, unless they make it a lot heavier than the equivalent 6'er fork. I'd like to see 36mm stanchions and a 20mm axle, especially for your size
-your test ride on the SS is probably too weird to be of much use. You were likely traveling faster whenever you were pedaling uphill (due to the gearing), and this will help you roll over everything really well. The tall gearing also means that you won't see how the big wheels feel when you are going slow in the granny gear.
-I doubt that there is much consensus on what geometry to use on a 9'er or 9-6'er, so if you aren't careful, you could end up with a non-optimized design... that always happens to early adoptors. For reference, frame and fork designers are still trying to figure out the optimum rake, trail and fork offset combo for the current crop of 120mm travel forks.

Good luck! Researching/buying a new bike is always fun!

[Pokey]

At 6'5 i would seriously consider getting something custom built. Theres just soo few choices out there in the stocker sizes--and typically they all have some sort of flaw in my thinking on geometry(usually in the wheelbase/chainstays).

For the 29er i have only seen one design- by Steve Stickel which had a seattube that was offset forward on the BB shell and slightly into the downtube. He was able to get 16.25-17.5" rear stays with a 29er comfortably. (see pic attached) The chainstays are boxed sections out of the bb shell and taper til they meet the actual chainstay which has mitered and sealed ends. very sexy and the only 29er ive seen to date that has a real geometry that doesnt have to compromise with ht angle/sa/wheelbase etc.

Im a huge fan of going bigger in the wheelbase but having spent a fair amount of time on a 46.5"+wheelbase fr/dh bike----theres no way any 29er with a wheelbase aproaching that length makes any sense for what we all deem to be standard singletrack. A quarter inch change in wheelbase is vastly noticable--and many of these 29-ers are reaching traditional dh lengths(in our sizes).

The wheel issue is a serious one given you are 235+. As i said previously--this issue was the sole one which steered me away from the 29er market until i thought about having a custom builder do a 135mm spaced rigid fork.135 spacing with bladed aerolites should be nice and light and exponentially stronger both laterally and vertically.(good article on mtbr about spacing and the added strength for us big lads). Unfortunately a rigid is the only option right now if you wanted to talk someone into building you a 135spaced one.
And thats just the front we are speaking of......the rear i personally think would take a 150+mm and blades to do justice for us big guys on a f/s29 or 29er ss.

My only advice is to not get caught up in the 29er hype that may work for some and not for you. Little guys can take a jump in wheelbase and still fit on a trail.....but big guys taking a jump might as well be trying to take a Tundra Crewcab to the Rubicon.

[Pokey]

Okie-got curious about the newest frames that you mentioned out and given your size heres some thoughts.

Sultan- xl would be right wheelbase wise....xxl waaay wrongo from a wheelbase perspective.
xxl would be better in ht length.......xl waaaaywrongo from a ht perspective.

VEntanas. el ray and patron suffer from short ht also.

Both bikes are way off for you due to that high saddle position and short headtubes. The good news is that im sure both Turner and Sherwood would throw on a longer heattube no problemo.

[Flounder]

I had a fun night, took out the demo 29er single speed... Gary Fisher Hardtail, :
I've spent a lot of trail miles on that "Rig". The eccentric BB sucks, but for spec and geometry it's a great bike.

It sounds like you noticed many of the same positive attributes of a 29er that I noticed in the first few rides. That rear wheel hook up is sweet. Climbing techy stuff is a breeze as the front wheel locks on the line and rolls over everything. It takes several weeks of riding a SS to really physically adapt to it. You spend enough time out of the saddle, your back needs more umph than usual. Those first weeks on a SS my back hurt.

I'm not sure I have ever felt the wheel flex everyone is so sensitive to. For the record my basement is full of about $10,000 worth of road racing wheels and XC hoops. I'm a wheel junky. Everything from 1000 gram climbing wheels to 60mm rimmed carbons and full discs. Many of those wheels notorious for flex. I feel the softy, softy nature of a 29er tire inflated to a squishy 32psi, but not "wheel" flex so much. My other SS has V brakes and even on that bike I've never heard any brake rub or felt any flex. But every rider feels their own feedback from any bike.

As for fit and the particulars of bikes, I used to be really fickle. I always rode custom machines....always. Since about 1999 we've had sponsors give us bikes, often ordered with the most basic of dimensions. I'm actually amazed how well I can adapt to a bike I would have though wouldn't fit or be the right geometry. For example, when Voodoo gave us our road bikes last season we ordered them with JUST top tube measurements since they hadn't even designed the bikes yet. I not only made it work, but it feels great. Anyway, that's a long way of saying as a good rider, you can often adapt to any bike as long as it's in the right size for the most part. You can obsess over a half degree here or 5mm there, but sometimes it isn't necessary.

[Flounder]

Speaking of single speeds.....Anyone see the prototype Poly Drive system Spot has on their site? Belt drive single speed. I'm all over that.

[dieselcruiserhead]

Thanks for the comments Pokey I appreciate it.. Also pardon the novel here. But these are the questions/thoughts running through my head. Again this is a big purchase in the end so I want to get it right).

There are two sort of trains of thought there, what I maybe "should be" on (ie much longer top tube) and what I "like to" be on. Again even though I'm 6'5 I'm riding a XL stumpjumper. I also always considered myself a "XL" kind of guy. Largely related to the "odd" part of me being my legs only. the rest of me is common XL size, feet (size 12), sweater size common XL. Because I'm 6'5 people assume that because of my height that I'd need something massive. Been happening my whole life. When I was a snowboarder in my teens in high school, someone sold me a "fat bob" once because I was "so tall" even though I told them I'm only a 12 foot (which fits fine on normal even narrow snowboards.

It worked but was a tank and why would I want to haul around a tank? That is what I'm worried will happen with the XXLs and what everyone wants to put me on. My next board was a 158 Burton Custom, the smoothest/slickest and lightest board made back then... And guess what, the lighter smaller more agile board worked 20 times better than the Fat Bob for me and I was super stable... Admittedly I should have been on a 163-165 but if I took a store or common sizing advice I'd be on a 172. --No way for me!

So anyway, my current Specialized Stumpjumper that I love and feel that I fit on great and get around on great is: 24.3 virtual top tube, 16" chain stays, 43 1/4 wheel base. 73 degree seat tube, 71 degree head tube. Small, light, nimble, super solid at all speeds, cruises.. My only complaint again (related to the long seat tube) is a slightly longer wheel base (about 1" I figure), move the seat tube back about 1/2" or even 1" maybe, and longer seat tube and taller head tube to make things a little heigher up front.

But even with this relatively small bike, and the 2.4 MotorRaptors I have been riding, I actually keep up with my buddies on 5" Ventanas and such both uphill and downhill (and these guys are good even semi-pro riders). I do not eat it too often over the front (I have but seldom) and have been able to stick killer descents, 100 yard long super steep loose rocky descents and not eat it.. A lot of it also attributable to super wide and stable handlebars too..

Nothing insanely technical (but it happens too once in a while). But difference is I have to work my *** off to keep up and I'm hurting at the end of the day (only 28 so I can pull this off, for now)... They keep saying "imagine Andre on a full suspension!" I actually like and have nailed some 2' drops even with the hard tail... So in all a little crazy..

So I started doing the math based on what I like and what works for me, which is this Stumpjumper. This is my big geometry dillemma: base off what I like and what I know (aka this Stumpjumper, which I like so much that I went and bought another one), or start from scratch based on what someone else is telling me?

And no big deal but so far, I sort of respectfully disagree with your comments on mostly the Sultan.. It is the same head angles and steering angles, 1" longer in the top tube (which would be about perfect IMO), and I like the longer chain stays (18" is admittedly long) but would help alot with keeping the wheel down.

Been doing research on 29er on MTBR mostly and turns out there are a lot of 'clydes' as (we?) are called riding 29er and doing OK. Just with a decent wheel set. So this is what I was thinking if I did go 29er. Something like a stans set and something with a burly ultra rigid hub with probably straight spokes 14g as mentioned or something else and maybe even more bling-ie like even an I-9 hub/spoke setup. Super straight, super strong, super rigid, super expensive :)

So far the more I do the math it seems the more I like the sultan geometry... Almost sort of exactly what I am looking for. My only complaint would be fairly low steerer-tube, height wise (this can be adjusted through with different forks), the 21" seat tube (again this is where I'd want 23 - but 21" works fine), and the 1" longer ETT is perfect IMO..

If I can get a wheel set to hold up, I think 18 long *** rear chain stays would be great and with the added traction of 29er I think it would be fine.. Even if not I considered using this bike and doing maybe a 650B wheelset now that they are available (sort of crazy to hop on the band wagon immediately - but that would be killer and I am a fan of the Rampages - the tire available for this size), or maybe even 26er in this size if 29er will not hold up to me. A little 'odd' too but nothing wrong with riding 26er in a 29er frame almost :) But that said if I ended up this way I would prefer a regular old 26er frame for the obvious advantages and would buy a Spot or El Ciclon.

My complaint about 26er (which I like so I haven't ruled it out) is feeling every bump even with a plush suspension... Again like wheeling really hard terrain in 31s or 33's versus 35s.. Works and does OK but you feel it versus the larger tires that roll over everything and make everything so much easier. Different can of worms but I think it is a reasonable comparison...

That said again I'm not 100% sold on it either. Will go ahead and spend more time on this 29er (I got the OK from the LBS to take it out whenever I want for free, which is cool). It is rainy and nasty here today and I'm stuck at work for most of the day so looks like Wednesday afternoon for me most likely again...

But I did a lot of research on this and looks like with a well built 29er wheel set I'll be OK. I think I'm on the light side of some of these clydes riding 29er, for what its worth!


Other than all this, I fully agree about the "tundra on the Rubicon" comment for the same reasons too... thanks!




Okie-got curious about the newest frames that you mentioned out and given your size heres some thoughts.

Sultan- xl would be right wheelbase wise....xxl waaay wrongo from a wheelbase perspective.
xxl would be better in ht length.......xl waaaaywrongo from a ht perspective.

VEntanas. el ray and patron suffer from short ht also.

Both bikes are way off for you due to that high saddle position and short headtubes. The good news is that im sure both Turner and Sherwood would throw on a longer heattube no problemo.

[dieselcruiserhead]

Speaking of single speeds.....Anyone see the prototype Poly Drive system Spot has on their site? Belt drive single speed. I'm all over that.

Yes saw this. According to the MTBE reviews it does great and the belt stays on and tight... Pic right on the page. I have a friend ordering a 29er version, should be here in the next couple weeks.. http://www.spotbikes.com/

[Flounder]

I'm not sure I understand what you're suggesting by bumping up the front of the Sultan with a longer fork. More travel will mean more slack HT angle and ST angles. Pair that with those ridiculously long stays and you'll have a Mack truck on your hands. Forget "nimble."

[dieselcruiserhead]

Here is a thread I started about building a strong 29er wheelset. Good responses from some of the i-tards on MTBR IMO, but good info..
http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=347444

[Flounder]

Dude, MTBR and Roadbike Review are full of terrible reviews and opinions. REALLY bad. For every excellent opinion there are 5 lame opinions. I noticed your question about Velocity hoops. All in all, not the best available. Much of this rim business has to do with manufacturing quality. That's why DT, Mavic and others have been doing so well. The Stans get good trailside reviews, but then again, my Bonti rims have held up like aces and I'd put them middle of the road or a teeny bit higher. King hubs are my personal favorite. The rear hub is awesome, especially for off roading and SS riding. The instant engagement is pretty slick. I have a set of Kings on my road bike with more than 35,000 miles on them. Great stuff.

Well chosen spokes will make the difference with regard to stiffness. The rim has perhaps less to do with it than the spokes. I'm liking the added depth of Bontrager's rims as defence against flat spotting.

In the end, wheels are not worth poo unless a good builder builds them and a skilled rider rides them.

I still say those stays on the Sultan are destined to haunt you on every sharp turn. We're talking 2" longer than the Fisher you've been demoing. Wait 'till you have to lift that front wheel!

[Pokey]

Yeah i agree with Flounder on the MTBR.....alot of useless opinions and there are a handful of real knowledgeable people who ride real world conditions.

DieselC-head- i think since you like the STumpy so much- you need to go out and ride some full suspensions with similar tt's and slightly longer wheelbases. The simple way to look at it for me is -- you have 235lbs sitting at the top of a triangle.....with the wheels forming the base of that triangle. Your triangle is rather tall due to your long legs. Whether you do a 29 or 26...increasing your wheelbase from 43(stumpy) another inch will be veeeery noticable on descents. I would never go past 45.5" wheelbase on a XC rig --hardtail.ss or f/s. In general its just about assessing which end of the wheelbase to increase for you..... If you increase it in the front by keeping the rear stays short---you will have a much more comfortable on descents(less over the bars feel as the wheel is further in front of you). If you increase the rear with long stays- you end up sacrificing some of that forward stability for sideways control and predicability.(a long rear end follows the turns of the front with a little more ease and less sharpness).

My take is- keep the rear short- and select proper grip tires for the rear and your body weight. (basically compensate for the shorter rear bias by better riding skills and tire selection). *rationale*--> 235lbs at the top of triangle that starts to tip forward going downhill is the real battle....kinda like a fj55 with an extra 235lbs on the 150lb arb roofrack.

It sounds like you are smooth rider to keep up with your F/s buddies on your stumpy. If you can translate that smoothness onto a F/s rig of your own...you might end up with them chasing you.

The rationale behind my Sultan comments were based on your lower back comments. To go with the XL would be the upper limit of wheelbase as the xxl is sorta downhill ridonkulous length. But going with the xl and a short headtube is potentially going to have the bar to seat drop too low. Unfortunately the truth will be looking at the downtube length and tt angle. If the downtube is longer and the actual tt lenght is at a steeper angle.....Turner may have compensated for that short headtube somewhat. This is where bike co. specs- (or lack thereof) can get annoying. You can always use a shorter stem and a few spacers/riser bar etc. But i would make sure to ride the XL paying particularly close attention to the bar height in relation to your tall seating height. The bike is likely to feel much more stable......but you may be feeling the wheelbase initially and realize down the road that your back starts bugging you and you go into spacer-dom with more and more spacers. Its funny to see sooo many bike pics and even custom frames on the MTBR with whacked out spacer use---because people havent properly assessed saddle to bar drop. (usually because its virtually impossible with the few specs given on bike websites). Virtual toptube is meaningless if you dont know what the downtube/headtube and tt angle is. In reference--im 6'4-fairly avg torso-leg length- and all 4 custom builders spec'd 6.5-7" ht and all came out with a floor to bar height of 42.5". My saddle height from floor to saddle top of center is 44.85 with a 13.5"bb height.

If you measure your stumpy bar to floor-bb to floor and bar ends to floor....i can probably tell you if the Sultan xl will have an issues with ht length for your size.

Speaking of which---you should measure your STumpy dt and ht and have that ammo handy when comparing frames. Or easier yet-- bar to floor height and saddle to floor height and saddle tip to bar at the center of the stem. You will start to see how these variations can wildly effect positioning on bike and contribute to its feel.

[dieselcruiserhead]

RE stumpy geometry, I can tell you almost all of that info off the top of my head... (Going back to that question of if I should base my measurements off what I like/know or if I should start from scratch on what other people are telling me).

BB height, I think its 12.5 or 12.75, less than the Sultan and other frames I seem to like. Heigher BB goes a long way with full suspension though as we know. Stumpy standover is about 32-33", the seat tube and head tube angle of the Stumpy are 71/73, same as the Sultan, and the VTT is 24.3, the Sultan is about 25.5 just a hair over an inch longer. On their 5" models it is closers to what I have with the stumpy with a 69" head angle hence the increased wheel base to about 45" (the stumpy is 43 1/4"). I do not know the other measurements off the top of my head but will remeasure when I get home and post up...

I have read read and read the reviews on MTBR mostly in the forums and I think you guys are right aobut 1/5 actually being right on. The Sultan suspension seems a little plusher and deeper than the Ventana El Rey (the manufacturer I have a deal with) which is what I was looking for. But I'll come across people saying it really does handle like a 4". If this were a 26er bike I would be interested in 5", don't even think I'd consider 4" most likely. But word on the street is 4" 29er is like 5" 26er because of hte wheel characteristics.

I think you guys are right about wheel lift of the Sultan though, will be way forward particualrly with that steep angle the seat stays. Supposedly it climbs like a goat, never read anything that disputed that, a lot as saying "it is the best climbing bike I've ridden." What I like about hte Sultan versus the Ventana is the longer top tube and the slacker 73" seat angle puts the seat father back. So yes it has those long-*** chain stays but buts the seat father back and over the wheel versus in front of it. Not too far forward. And there is that 1" longer top tube but I think it will still handle well for descents. I think what is good about the 71 degree tube (I've probably mentioned this) is quick turning and more steering power, I don't think much loss of DH performance because of hte larger wheels, don't resist as much. But yes weight will be father forward. but this is how the stumpy is and again I don't think it will feel any worse. I do go over the bars here and there on the Stumpy though :) But have managed it pretty well and its been months and months since one of those, other than one last week :)

So I dunno. I am not 100% sold on this frame. The Intense Spider 29er seems like a pretty sweet option. they have a prototype 5.5" travel one they just came out with. Not sold on Intense either, suspension system seems funky but supposedly works really well. I think the head angle is 72 degrees or something like that though! turns really agressively...!

Then there is the Ventana. I might be more sold on this except the seat tube it steep and really moves your forward, same cainstay length (~18"). And does not feel as plush.

Again I've going to ride some more 29ers. I think I mentioned it, there is a local shop that now that 24 hours of Moab is over I'll take out some of their 29er full suspensions and see what I think... I dunno maybe I should go back to 26er but 29er seems like it would be a better fit... But again the geometry *does get weird* with these big *** wheels. There is a pretty good new thread on MTBR about 650B, seems to make more and more sense the more I think about it...

[dieselcruiserhead]

and in the end too I think most of these frames sound pretty good and will all work. the good news is I haven't spent too much time on FS or on one bike versus another, so I can still modify myself and probably feel comfortable on one bike versus another fairly easily.. that is not what I should do but with the mostly minimal differences between all of these frames, I don't think there is a real clear loser and I'll probably be happy on any of them... But I think it does go a long way to check and know these things.

I'm also excited to maybe build a frame (semi-on the cheap, with my mig welder) and experiment with some geometry this way too :) I'll post up if I ever do any of that...

Cheers!

[Pokey]

As usual it really comes down to what your intended purpose is. For me 69deg head angle is really more all mountain-ish versus true xc-ish(71). Whats nice about the 69deg. is that you can always opt for a Talus type fork and drop the front end down for climbing......giving you a bit more versatility if you want a "do-it-all-well" type bike.

[Flounder]

What I like about hte Sultan versus the Ventana is the longer top tube and the slacker 73" seat angle puts the seat father back. So yes it has those long-*** chain stays but buts the seat father back and over the wheel versus in front of it. Not too far forward. And there is that 1" longer top tube but I think it will still handle well for descents. I think what is good about the 71 degree tube (I've probably mentioned this) is quick turning and more steering power, I don't think much loss of DH performance because of hte larger wheels, don't resist as much. But yes weight will be father forward. but this is how the stumpy is and again I don't think it will feel any worse. I do go over the bars here and there on the Stumpy though :) But have managed it pretty well and its been months and months since one of those, other than one last week :)
.

The most common mistake in road fit and almost always in mountain fit is miss-use of seat angle and fore/aft of seat rails. Where you sit over the BB is CRITICAL for proper delivery. How your hips, femur, lower leg and foot relate to the crank arm is largely effected by where your hips are over the BB. Secondary to that is how you balance over the bike. That is in part a matter of positioning over the BB but mostly relative to TT length and bar height which is a combination of HT length and stem rise.

Then again, this is all coming from a certified Serotta, Fit Kit and Fit Systems fitter who usually buys a bike, takes off with a set of allens and just RIDES.

[dieselcruiserhead]

pretty sweet new offering from Intense, will be arriving in the next couple months... What is nice about the 4" Intense Spider 29er is it actually has short stays. Looks like they couldn't keep them short with this 5" bike but still pretty cool IMO.. http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=262193

[Pokey]

the large in that has a 24.75 tt which should be perfect-not sure what the wheelbase will be with a 71.5HA but the VPP on the spiders is very nice. Good bearing size for durability. My riding bud finished La Ruta recently on his 26spider and loved it- no problems after 30hours in the saddle in the most abusive condtions.

The one issue will be how the Fox29 axle to crown height is going to get that front end up for you(with you sitting so tall on a large) Id email intense and ask them if they are specing that geometry on the Fox axle to crown height.

ventana makes a nice crown base spacer that you can run to gain .5 inch under the headtube--and then possibly keep a reasonable number of spacers under your stem if the whole setup feels waaaay too forward on the large size.

Im guessing if they do an XL size- given the ha and chainstays---it might end up being humongously long in the wheelbase.....but it sounds like the large tt at 24.75 might be the way to go if you can make it fit.

You will love the VPP for climbing and the descending is very smooth. 5" of vpp will be smoother than many 6" travel bikes on fast choppy stuff(due to wheel path travel). not quite as plush and forgiving on the big hits(but you dont have issue with big hits if you are keeping up with your buddies on F/s with your hardtail) ----and much nicer if you are transitioning from a hardtail into F/S.

In my mind tho- once you get into F/S- id let the suspension do the work on a 26"bike versus the wheel on a 29er which may be a weak link for your size. For about the same weight as your 29er setup--youd be able to run a Fox36 Talas-with a 26" 5.5VPP and have the much burlier setup of the two with better geometry for climbing in the 100mm mode......and sick *** descending in 160mm mode. Id go find someone who has the Fox36talas and then ride something with the Fox29. The added length of the Fox29 which is a 32mm stantion is going to make it muuuuch more noticably flexy for someone your size compared to the Talas36(speculation having not ridden the Fox29yet.) I have ridden the talas36 and can say its in a league of its own for 235lb guys like us. At 5.1lbs nothing comes close.

[dieselcruiserhead]

cool good to know. I was thinking the White Brothers 135 fork with the through axle.. Should be nice and stiff. Again what I am coming off of those I might not even notice the difference though. I caught the last possible moment to be biking here in Park City, before winter, last night. First day off today in days, was hoping to go out today but storm rolled in last night, snowing here in town as we speak.. So last night I left with lights in the Camelbak at about 6PM after work and was out until 9PM when the weather came out. Was killer, just a little cool for the first couple hours... Gorgeous... Then all hell broke loose.. This is what I came back to at the car.. Never been riding in really bad weather, was actually a blast! I bet there is 6" up there already...

[Pokey]

The Fox29 is specd for 500mm axle to crown ratio which may end up slackening that head angle slightly---and lift the bb some......which could be the saving grace for that geom which is tooo racey unless you are doing loops on a groomer racetrack.

Intense measures the wheelbase based on an 80mm fork at 450mm axle to crown -----so 50mm (2.25 inch more axle to crown) with the Fox F29 would take off a degree and half or so and put you in the right range imho as 73HA is just wrongo.
The other nice thing is that the Fox29 on that will increase the bb height from its racey 12.5 which is on the low side for a 4" travel bike.

You should end up with a bit more wheelbase with the Fox29 from the 44" which is claimed at the 80mm fork axle to crown length of 450mm. Id say your looking at an inch or so more which would be okay.

The only thing i worry about is the seat angle of 73 which will drop to sub72deg with that Fox..........and given your tall seatheight......it may put your weight too far back for serious climbing imho. Another one that has to be ridden to really understand how your tall saddle position is going to effect bar drop (headtube length) and climbing (seat angle).

[dieselcruiserhead]

cool this is all good info.. Yes that 73 degree head angles is crazy. And the low BB, that is the same height as my hardtail.. On the 5.5 they moved away from that a little with a 71 angle, same as the other guys basically.. But truth is I think I am moving a little farther from that Intense, I dunno...

Anyway I was emailing Dave Turner about different bike setups/combos and called him up this morning, must have talked to him a good 45 minutes. Pretty cool that answers the phone there, sort of talked my ear off! Anyway they offered up a dealer position to my good friend's LBS that I am doing the marketing for (so if anyone needs a killer deal on a bike let me know)... www.UintaBicycles.com pretty good funky LBS in Kamas (next town over) that has a real community around it and a bunch of really really good riders in and out regularly... Going to preserve some of the character there but build a really sick site for them. They sort of have a cult following and sell a lot of Ventanas mostly currently...

Anyway started talking about the different models and angles and everything and liked a lot of what he had to say... We also had a lot of discussion on 650B which he says he thinks will probably catch on fairly slowly though it does make sense. He was saying if I really want an AM 5" 29er bike I should get the new Lenz lunchbox that just came out. Also uses a 150mm rear axle... Then White Brothers I guess has a new 150mm fork. And togehter you can still keep it in the high 20s as far as weight...

I have been doing web stuff for a living for hte last few years. Got a real job a couple months ago and am having a good time but fun to do some stuff on the side particularly in the bike industry.. :)

Cheers,
A

[gearguywb]

I have a Niner One9 SS and a Turner Sultan. I am a fan of big wheels....there is a lot of BS on both sides of the argument. For me they do "roll" better as far as keeping momentum. Yes, there certainly is a difference in gearing (10% +/-). Wheels are VERY important. My first ride on a Moots MootoX was horrible. I had put a set of very cheap wheels on it just to get a ride in. The added weight felt like I was dragging an anchor. Switched to a set of I9's and WOW...what a difference!

Not often mentioned is that to reap the benefits of a 29'er requires a change in riding style for some. You need to use the wheels size advantage to carry momentum into turns and over obstacles. A different approach from a 26 inch bike where you might slow and then accelerate through.

[dieselcruiserhead]

Very cool.. I am pretty much sold, I test-rode a Lenz Behemoth that belongs to a local guy (what a ride) and have been taking out a Gary Fisher 29er.. Did a hard ride last night on my 26er and it rides great but coluld not help but think how much better the 29er will be... I will keep you all posted, it will be some time but I will probably end up with one or the other... I dig those I-9 wheels, they look great and strong and nice and light.. I am on the light wheels bandwagon for sure....

[RHINO]

hey dre:wavey: i will most likely end up with a 29 in the future at some point,,, i really like the way they roll and i'm not doing the real ruff stuff anymore. as i get older i am using my bike less like a rock rig and more like an explore rig. and i cant think of a better rig than a 29er rolling along all day.

[dieselcruiserhead]

Cool Rhino...! I have a couple potential web projects brewing right now that might yield free or cheap gear... We did end up getting Turner at the local shop I do work for, but I'm now leaning more towards the Ventana... Again will keep you guys posted! I finally got a new digital camera over Christmas, I need to post up my two little Specialized in the bike pics thread... Been riding to work again, usually fairly cold but makes the day great :)

[dieselcruiserhead]

Well I got a 29er...

A Gary Fisher X-Caliber geared hardtail frame that I am going to build into a single speed. Brand new '07 model that I got with a lightly used Kenda Nevgal 2.2 and a Maxxis Ignitor 2.1 and a almost brand new Surly Karate monkey fork for $200 off a guy from Craigslist Boulder. Screamin' deal :) Already arrived, I am exstatic.

My goal (similar to my S-works single speed (http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?p=3939563)) is to build it as light but as cheap as possibly.. I'm about $330 into it with a cheapo but decent and light Bontrager single speed wheelset I picked up; goal is to be under $450 or 500 total and hopefully about 23 lbs or so :) It will be fully rigid for now but may eventually put a suspension fork under it up front depending on how much time I spend on it.

73 seat angle 17.2" chainstays (fairly short for a 29er), 71.5 degree angle (all very similar to my Specialized bikes). Great all around X-C geometry, Gary Fisher's "Genesis" geometry. Frame weighs only 3.6 lbs. This will be my first Gary Fisher (aka Trek). Will gear about 32/20 or so, Avid BB7 mechanicals and pretty basic. The frame has old school decaling and this killer black flack metallic color that really shines in the light and looks great... Also has killer double butting and some near tapering in the tubes before, great looking and super technical frame IMO. Once I get it built up I'll post up! Attached pic is from the craigslist ad with the Fork it came with. For cheezy cosmetics I orded up a white Zion steel fork on sale at Jenson right now for $40, that will make it look a little better...

I decided to give my '01 Stump Jumper hard tail (http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/showpost.php?p=148122&postcount=59) to my little brother as a birthday present... It was hard to let go of the frame - it would have been a killer winter bike and has some nice features on it and it is not beat up too badly, but feel that it was an awesome bike but I outgrew it as a whole and also had to have the seat way forward because of the seatpost out so high and the short chainstays. It will serve him well and hopefully get him into MTB...

This Gary Fisher bike will basically be my "trainer" and if I am disciplined this summer I will ride it a lot and because its SS will hopefully make me a much stronger and faster rider... So easy to cheat with gears. No excentric BB -- which I don't mind at all, because it is a geared frame. I'm hoping I can find the magic gear otherwise a DMR chain tensioner I have will be slapped on :)

______________________________________

Still strongly weighing the 4" versus 5" issue for a trail bike, here is a relevant thread from MTBR: http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=380310
I am still all over the place between the Ventana and Turner... I was thinking Turner yesterday but am leaning Ventana for 5" option (but the extra $$) today :)

[dieselcruiserhead]

Some photos of the frame and wheelset I just took. Note the tapering in the frame tubes and metalic paint that I dig :)

Tires are Kenda Nevegal 2.2 and Jones ACX tubeless 2.2. Rims are Bontrager Duster 28mm wide tubeless (mounted with tubes currently) and craptastic Bontrager generic singlespeed hubs of some sort... Current cog is 18 tooth...

[dieselcruiserhead]

Just went through an re-read this entire thread. Very good stuff here. Also pardon my long and blathering posts. Also some of it (in regard to "straight spokes") doesn't even make sense to me. It is my lack of understanding of the technology (I was talking about radial versus 2 or 3 cross spoke lacing - for some reason I thought radial was stronger).

But anyways, some good news... I am doing the new web site for White Brothers. So I am pumped, I will be doing some product trade out so that is a free high end fork for whichever full suspension bike I end up with.

As far as geometry on the smallest 29er frames it is about 17.25" and these full suspension Ventana and Turner bikes are 18.2". The good Lenz bikes have a bent seat tubes and also have 17" chain stays. With my height the seat tube sticks out a lot so the longer chain stays are nice actually as far as recuding front wheel lift because my COG is so high.

I don't think I can go wrong with either option. My goals are now are 1) convince Lenz they need a new web site also :) (they do, badly). or 2) price out the Ventana and Turner options. If it makes sense I will order the Ventana with the possibly 5" option otherwise I will be ordering the Turner which should be $200-$300 cheaper.

I will do the XL 21" option because of the big wheelbase of the XXL units. The Turner has a XXL that is 46.something inches but I think the only XXL 23" option I'm considering is the Lenz which still keeps the wheelbase under 45.5" and offers a 23" seat tube that is slightly better for my longer legs.

[Fishenough]

I've been on a 29er single speed for about a year now. Absolutely love it. There are some 29er myths that need correction:

Myth: 29ers don't work on technical trails.
Truth: They actually work great on technical trails. As long as you can keep even modest forward motion, the wheels want to roll over everything. On techy climbs, that front wheel seems to want to hold a line really well and resists deflecting off every obstical.

Myth: 29ers are for fast fire roads
Truth: 29ers maximize even slow speed momentum. They work great on tight, twisty, technical single track as long as you maintain at least a walking pace. Their advantage is almost LESS on fire roads.

Myth: 29ers accellerate slowly and descellerate rapidly in part due to the additional weight.
Truth: Bunk. Lab studies have proven that the small added weight in rotational components isn't a big deal since bicycle accellerations are so small. i.e. 2mph to 7mph and not 0-60mph. Those big wheels will reach speed as quickly as 26" wheels given the same wattage input.

Myth: 29ers handle like dump trucks
Truth: They can handle great, but you have to be VERY careful which 29er you get. The tail end on many 29ers gets long and you end up clipping your rear wheel mid/inner turn. Short stays are critical on a 29er to keep the handling tight. Most full sus 29ers get a little long in the tail so that does make for a truckish handling bike. Not many people make a tight rear end on a full sus 29er.

Myth: 29ers have less traction
Truth: The inverse is true. The larger diameter actually increases the footprint of the tire by 8%, primarily in length which gives 29ers fantastic traction. You feel that on hard pressed turns and as the rear wheel hooks up.

Myth: 29ers are for big guys
Truth: Several guys I ride with are sub 5'10" and rock out on 29ers.

Myth: 29ers put the rider too high
Truth: That's just BS spawn by people who don't understand frame building 101. The BB height can be as high or low as a 26" wheeled bike.

29ers are awesome. I've been racing XC for 20 years and 29ers make for fantastic rides. One thing to mention - 29ers love momentum, even at 2mph. As such, a single speed in a 29er format is a thing of beauty. The one gear forces you to maintain proper riding finesse and to hold momentum. Those wheels love that.

Drawbacks: Sure, with all things there are compromises. If you like big drops, huge hits and frequently need to launch over large logs, rocks or old ladies, those wheels do feel pretty earth bound sometimes. The slightly longer wheel base makes the front wheel a little heavy. I wouldn't take on Vancouver trails with a 29er, but for fast, technical single track.....29ers rock.

I love mine. I'll never go back to 26" hoops. Just think of 28" tires on a Jeep vs 33" tires. Bigger wheels just roll over stuff better.

Now this is my opinion - Best inventions for cycling during my 22 years of racing: Clipless pedals, suspension forks, carbon fiber road wheels, 29 inch mountain wheels.

BTW, have to thank you because i just copy and pasted your post for the umpteenth time (I always give you credit). You put that very well and I'd about given up defending 29's. Riding with fused vertebra, suspension and the 29s have kept me on a bike and on the trails.

Cheers

[dieselcruiserhead]

Dave you may get a kick out this.. Finally took the plunge this morning and actually ordered up a new 650b frame Ventana that is coming out called the El Bastardo. Here is a relevant thread:
http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=381463

Details on it, basically the benefits of the larger wheels (better traction, rolling resistance, etc) but better frame geometry and wheel strength of the ~1" larger wheels versus the massive 29er wheels... I am still psyched on 29er and am psyched for this Gary Fisher single speed but I think I realized why no one is building these big 29er full suspension frames and rightly so...

Dave I sort of owe it to you, I think it was in this thead or from this site that I started looking into 650b. The best part it is it shorter stays than the massive 18.2 29er stays, and is 5" right out of the box... Basically exactly what I am looking for. It is a little risky to order something so "new" and cutting edge but I am definitely a happy camper and looks like 650b is really catching on and I couldn't see how it wouldn't last... There are also good tires and rims and in general I think everyhint should work out pretty well...

Geometry-wise, details from talking about Ventana (they are still finalizing the specifics). But about 17.5 stays to fit the larger tire. They have it in a 17.2 in their prototype (which is the same as their 26" right now) but they want to move back for slightly better clearance. The frame is an XL size for me, so about 21-22" seat tube, about a high 24" (24.7-9 or so I imagine) effective top tube, 73-73.5 seat angle and a slacked out (for a larger tire) 70-70.5 degree head tube angle..

And probably a 650b specific 5" fork from White Brothers...

So I am totally pumped... :)

[dieselcruiserhead]

Excellent relevant thread about 29er chain stays and specifically 29er full suspension chain stays... http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.php?t=382329