Removing the swaybars for performance

[Scott Brady]

They key to removing the swaybar is valving in the coil-overs and rear shocks. Coil and leaf build plays a factor too (the weight the coil and leaves are made to bear), but the valving is the sweet spot.

I have always preferred IFS trucks without swaybars.

But, it is important to know what a swaybar does for our trucks. It is more than just roll control (keeping the chassis level under cornering force), but about understeer.

Manufacturers always bias a vehicles handling towards understeer, as opposed to oversteer (the rear end swinging out). This is accomplished in two ways for an IFS pick-up.

1. Positive Camber: Positive camber (the tires like this \ / ) allows for a smooth transition from neutral to understeer as cornering load increases.

2. Stiff anti-swaybars: A stiff front suspension that has decreased cornering loading (because of the swaybar) will keep the car level and reduce front end grip, allowing the vehicle to handle more neutral, or understeer.

So, why remove the swaybar:

1. Improved Articulation in Technical Terrain: You all know that one
2. A more neutral handling truck: This is another reason why I removed the swaybar. Ever since my road course days I have prefered the a neutral handling suspension, which is to say minimal understeer, and ease of inducing oversteer with throttle application. A Tacoma with good coil-overs (like the Donahoes) and a firm valved rear shock will handle great at speed off-highway with the swaybar removed. My truck has a small lift and low COG so I can really push the truck on dirt roads, using the 4wd to pull the front end around. The lack of swaybar allows the outside front tire to load and pull through the corner.

On the highway (which is highly tactile), all the above goes out the window. No reason to run without the swaybar. My truck is only used for trips and on the trail, so no loss for me...

[asteffes]

Nice explanation, Scott. I would add that for drivers with little or no formal on-track drivers' training, a vehicle that tends toward oversteer is not good on the street. A vehicle that wants to bring the rear end around is not safe during evasive maneuvers (say, avoiding debris on the highway) and most drivers over-estimate their ability to correct an oversteer condition. They will often over-correct and make the situation worse. So, for folks here whose vehicles spend the majority of their time on the highway and see the ocassional off-road adventure, leaving the swaybars intact and connected is advisable. A quick-disconnect for trails would probably be ideal for non-dedicated expedition vehicles.

[Scott Brady]

Good point Adam...

In addition, my truck is near load balanced, which is my front and rear weight bias is close to 50/50, all the way up to 40/60. This makes my truck handle like a mid engine car.

The downside to this is tenacious grip up to the point of oversteer, then hold on... :Wow1: Fortunately, the truck responds well to throttle lift and mild correction.

[+ d]

Are there sway bar quick-disconnect options for the tacoma?

As i am sure you know there are several options for SFA jeeps. For the last year i had been running the JKS QuickerDisconnects (http://www.jksmfg.com/quicker_disconnectsCJ_YJ_WJ.htm) but they started to clunk. After laying in the dirt for 20 minutes removing the stock endlinks i am looking for another option, i like the concept, but not the price of the Nth Degree disco's (http://www.nthdegreemobility.com/QuickSilverSwaybarDisconnect.htm).

I may just have to fabricate my own...

[erin]

:coffee:
I to was wondering on the availability of quick discos, ar e there any you guys would recommend?

[Scott Brady]

All of the designs I have found for the Tacomas are difficult to use. The bar is just in a weird spot IMO for it to be a "quick" disconnect.

But that was a few years ago, so maybe something new has come about.

The ideal would be a coupled swaybar with a servo disconnect. Push a button and rock and roll. :)

[The BN Guy]

I haven't had a swaybar on my Frontier in two and one-half years! Yes it leans a bit in some extreme curves but I don't drive like Robby Gordon so it really makes no difference. I do get a little more tire wear on the outside of the front set due to extra force exerted on them but having the extra little flex offroad makes up for it.

I know several people that have removed them from their Nissans. About half put it back on but the other half really enjoy the extra flex as well and notice little body lean.

Calmini has released a kit to SAS a Frontier or Xterra. This puts our vehicles higher and therefore more top heavy. Two individuals I know of have chosen to purchase the swaybar kit and state that they can see a difference due to the extra height while out on the highway. Offroad they simply disconnect it and have tons of flex.

Calmini does make a quick disconnect for the Xterra but after seeing it in person I was concerned about it flopping around during extreme flexing and getting caught up in the front suspension and tearing up either the UCA's, brake lines or something else critical.

Plus it scares the bejesus out of passengers when we start to lean.

[Exrunner]

I, as well, havent run a swaybar on my 4runner for a long time. it has the torsion bar front end, and with them being pretty cranked, there still isnt very much roll on the road. And this coming from a guy who lives in the Smoky Mountains....EVERY road around Pigeon Forge, Gatlinburg, and Sevierville is extremely curvy, but I really have no problems, and, too, enjoy the extra flex. But I dont drive like a bat out of hell either. I think if your careful, and understand the vehicles tendencies after its removed, and take a while to get used to it, then I say go for it. But it WILL handle differently, and thats the thing that matters. I think where most people get into trouble is when the decide that the vehicle should handle the same, and treat it that way....thats when things get bad....My 2 cents. :elkgrin:

[Desertdude]

a couple swaybar disconect links for Tacoma's

how to make (http://www.larsdennert.com/4runner/swaybar)


where to buy (http://www.frontrangeoffroadfab.com/disconnects_taco.htm)

:::

[p1michaud]

Just anohter option for sway bar disconects (http://www.wabfab.org/products/suspension/quickdiscos.htm)

I've recently purchased a set of these and will be installing them shortly. I'll report on their performance after some use. They are well made and waskillywabbit answered all my questions patiently. Great service.
Cheers,
P

[+ d]

what would you guys estimate the design capacity would need to be for sway bar disconnects?

as i have started to get into thinking about fabricating some for myself (my JKS quicker disco's didn't cut it) i'm realizing that they present a bit of a tricky design problem. they need to resist push-pull forces, articulate at the connection points and deal with unlevel conditions during attach/detachment...performing all the while with style and grace
:o


so as i start to spec hardware i am wondering what the load conditions really are...i suppose worst case would be the GVW? but the components would be significantly cheaper if i could rationalize for a lesser load...

[MaddBaggins]

I broke the mounts on my front sway bar on my last trip out with goodtimes. I decided to remove both bars and see how I like it. Way to much lean in the corners, so I put the rear one back in. I'm happy with the way it handles now. I drive a little slower is all. If I really feel like it I will reweld the mounts for the front bar and reinstall. Maybe.:ylsmoke:

[+ d]

what would you guys estimate the design capacity would need to be for sway bar disconnects?

:ar15: :wavey:
i hate to be 'that guy' but i am gonna bump this one back to the top just 'cause i'd like some opinions!

[Scott Brady]

what would you guys estimate the design capacity would need to be for sway bar disconnects?

as i have started to get into thinking about fabricating some for myself (my JKS quicker disco's didn't cut it) i'm realizing that they present a bit of a tricky design problem. they need to resist push-pull forces, articulate at the connection points and deal with unlevel conditions during attach/detachment...performing all the while with style and grace
:o


so as i start to spec hardware i am wondering what the load conditions really are...i suppose worst case would be the GVW? but the components would be significantly cheaper if i could rationalize for a lesser load...

There has been a lot of work done on the Jeep swaybar disconnects. Between material costs and fabrication time, I believe it would be very difficult to engineer and make your own for a reasonable cost.

Some of the newer ones (like from Teraflex) are even easier to use.

[UncleChris]

Took the truck into work with yes(ee gads!) the swaybar sitting in the garage. 50 miles each way on bad NorCalifornia superslab.

I was really surprised at how non-dramatic it was. With the Hoes and the AAL, the ride is pretty much stock, if anything maybe a little bit better road feel.

Nothing like the Cherokee when I had it disconnected. Maybe that is one of the differences in handling between the IFS and a solid front axle.

Heading out to Hollister tomorrow, I'll try to get pics on the stairstep, to compare with picture I have doing it stock.

[p1michaud]

Just anohter option for sway bar disconects (http://www.wabfab.org/products/suspension/quickdiscos.htm)

I've recently purchased a set of these and will be installing them shortly. I'll report on their performance after some use. They are well made and waskillywabbit answered all my questions patiently. Great service.
Cheers,
P

Sorry to dig up an old post, but it was time for an update.

I've installed and used the Sway Bar Disconnects made by wabfab. The fit, finish and materials are excellent. After having them installed and used them for some time now, I'm happy to report that they don't rattle.

Having used the disconnects for some time, I'm not sure they should be called quick disconnects, more like "quicker disconnects". The location of the Sway Bar on the Tacoma makes it difficult to access the disconnects for removal. You need a 19 mm socket to remove the top nut, then remove the washer and bushing and finally you remove the hitch pin and you are finally disconnected. To re-connect that's anohter challenge that requires two people at times unless you are lucky and able to park on a flat surface often difficult to find while off road. I'm to the point now where I don't bother disconnecting them anymore due to the required effort unless I'm planning a real technical trail.

Finally, two concerns I have with the disconnects is that the hitch pin location is really close to the CV boot and I'm concerned that they may come in contact and cause the CV boot to tear. This has not happened yet. The other concern is having the sway bar loose while driving off road, I'm concerned that the ends of the sway bar may come in contact with the brake lines or other suspension components as the suspension cycles. Again, this has not happened yet.
Regards,
Pierre

[pskhaat]

Don't know how I missed this thread a year ago, but on my 80 series, I am torn between having the sway bars in or out even off-road. Granted the 80 is live axled but I find that I have significant more driver control at speed (not highway) with the swaybars; on the slick I can actually break the rear end out much easier. Is this not contrary to the expected behavior you mentioned?

Scott, you say with a reduced front end roll you can maintain more of a grip but I also believe I find the converse on the 80 series in that I have much more oversteer potential with the swaybars in. This may be simply that driving my 80 is like breathing for me and as lame as this sounds I feel like I'm one with that machine, and I know how it handles in almost every situation and I know how to throw it? With enough balls and $ I could probably get that thing to drift in a rally.

Anyway, do you think with the static and relatively nill camber on the 80 live axle may make an overly-heavy machine like that act differently?

[Scott Brady]

Scott, you say with a reduced front end roll you can maintain more of a grip

A front swaybar will reduce front end grip and increase understeer. A disconnected swaybar will increase front end grip and increase oversteer.

Unless it is my truck, which has a 65% rear weight distribution, so it handles very neutral with the swaybar disconnected (more like a mid-engine).

On a live axle truck I would prefer to have the swaybar attached at speed (as the two front wheels are already connected and influenced by each other), especially in an AWD SUV like the 80

[bigreen505]

I think the effects of removing a sway bar can be different on every vehicle, so you have to try it an see what you think. For example, on the Trooper straight line directional stability went to hell, but the suspension was much better able to handle and absorb small bumps, particuarly in turns, instead of getting bounced off line by them. It also seems like it may put some increased loads on the tie rods. With all the snow we've been getting the roads are extremetly rutted (think of driving almost exclusively on rutted, washboard ice) and having the sway bar in is incredibly annoying and rough.

The Rancho shocks on 9 are almost stiff enough to control body roll but still provide a relatively soft ride.

[pskhaat]

A front swaybar will reduce front end grip and increase understeer. A disconnected swaybar will increase front end grip and increase oversteer.
Yes, I accidentally reversed my logic in my post! Sorry.

[Scott Brady]

Bill,

Absolutely. Each vehicle is very different. I ran my Trooper without a swaybar for many years, but it could not handle like my Tacoma. Overall, I prefer a vehicle without the swaybar.

[flyingwil]

Would there be any issues with insurance companies if they noticed you had no swaybar?

[ntsqd]

snip......

The ideal would be a coupled swaybar with a servo disconnect. Push a button and rock and roll. :)

RG did this on his first Red Bull Truck. Cockpit dis/connectable. No linear actuators or other fancy stuff that quits when you need it to work. Just two typical torsion bars butted end to end. Outer ends connected to the axle via links. Inner ends either free to rotate independently or coupled together via a sliding sleave that was acted on by a bell-crank linkage. Pushing the lever fwds & dropping it into a notch disconnected it. Filpping it out of that notch & pulling it to the rear notch connected it.

[Grim Reaper]

My Sway bar has been off for nearly 2 years. Really didn't miss it till I started modding.
Between my last rear suspension mod and a trailer I now tote around some I am thinking about putting it back on. Nothing scary but the rear suspension is no longer on the overload (typical toy tail sag) and is now a lot softer so the body roll is a lot more prevalent. 150lb of tongue weight and occasional time the trailer influence the truck it gets a real washed out feel at speed on the hwy. I feel I could get in a over-steer problem if the right chain of events happens and have the trailer push the rear around. :yikes:

[devinsixtyseven]

I'm puttin' mine back on, and running discos. The truck just sways too much in the turns, on the highway...not comfy.

[p1michaud]

Would there be any issues with insurance companies if they noticed you had no swaybar?

Great, question. I've thought about that quite often actually and IMO, there sure there would be an issue. What do others think?

Cheers :beer:,
P

[ntsqd]

First thing is, DON"T tell them! It'll save them some trouble and you some grief.
(That's actually paraphrasing a famous person's quote.)

It'd be a pretty savvy adjuster to notice that it's gone.

[shawkins]

Another option for sway-bar disco's that I have seen on rigs from Australia are electric sway-bar disco's.

I think they are a factory option on some Nissan's down there, maybe Toyota's too?

I read a thread on YotaTech I think it was where someone in Australia put a set on the rear of their 2nd gen Surf (4Runner). If I remember right, they were from a Nissan and were easy to wire up with just a power and ground wire. Ill see if I can find the thread or his website.

EDIT: Here is a thread where a guy in the Netherlands had one on the rear of his 2nd gen. Surf: http://www.yotatech.com/showthread.php?t=59132&highlight=electric+discos

[Bob_Sheaves]

...... This is accomplished in two ways for an IFS pick-up......

ADDENDUM: Altering the track width, front and rear, also changes the transitional tendency towards understeer and oversteer. In some cases a GREAT deal of change. Also, the slip angle generated by the tires changes this relationship.

The point is, there are many MORE changes the OEMs use to balance the vehicle handling to the desired parameters. As a point of referance, I cringe at some of the components on the market for "off road use". Simply put, these parts have no business being installed on a street car. Anyone modifying a suspension accepts the responsibility and liability for alterations, and a sharp lawyer will tear you up in court if you don't know what you are doing. Ask anyone that worked for Jackman Wheels or Rancho years ago (like the mid/late 1970's).

Best regards,

Bob Sheaves
CEO
catNET Incorporated
http://www.catnetsolutions.com

[goodtimes]

All I have to say is that after a year and a half or so of not having a sway bar on the front of my wrangler, I'm awefully glad I finally got off my lazy butt and welded on the new tab (OE tab broke off long ago). The jeep is so much nicer to drive with the sway bar...I can't even describe it. I really don't know why I didn't do this sooner (other than I'm lazy).

[devinsixtyseven]

ADDENDUM: Altering the track width, front and rear, also changes the transitional tendency towards understeer and oversteer. In some cases a GREAT deal of change. Also, the slip angle generated by the tires changes this relationship.Bob-

I have a bazillion questions and probably don't even know how to ask them properly :p.

Could you elaborate on track width's effect on under/oversteer? For instance, if you have a given wheelbase, and extend the track width several inches, how is over/understeer affected? What if you extend the wheelbase? How about both at once?

Thanks,
Sean

[AZTrooper]

Removed my sway bars last weekend. Hands down... I love it!!!! Sure it has a little more body roll, but not enough to even make me consider putting them back on. Like Scott, I don't drive on any freeways anyway, the trooper is for trail and short trips around town. I love the way it feels going over speed bumps and the like!!!!! I took it on a killer trail up here in Flagstaff last Saturday and it performed eceptionally well. Sway bars are gone for good!!!

[Bob_Sheaves]

Bob-

I have a bazillion questions and probably don't even know how to ask them properly :p.

Could you elaborate on track width's effect on under/oversteer? For instance, if you have a given wheelbase, and extend the track width several inches, how is over/understeer affected? What if you extend the wheelbase? How about both at once?

Thanks,
Sean
To answer completely, we would have to get into a book size post and I am not sure most on here would appreciate me going on that long...so let me be brief, and if you have further questions, feel free to PM me and we can keep it off the main board.

That being said, generally, the track width is one of the major stability factors of a vehicle of any type, by it's relationship to the moment arm length between the combined roll center of the front and rear suspension, and the center of gravity of the loaded truck. In other words, for a loaded vehicle there is an axis running front to rear through the vehicle that represents the center axis the vehicle will roll around when a lateral force (side force from cornering, for example) is applied to the CG of the vehicle. Many people believe the force is applied to the ground contact patch of the tires, but this is not true. The ground contact patch of the tires is the resultant of the vehicle geometry.

When you widen the track width of a vehicle (assuming no other changes to the suspension geometry) you increase it's natural stability (giving what most racers call "understeer") because the length of the CG moment arm trying to roll the vehicle over becomes less, in proportion to the track width. For example, you have a vehicle with a moment arm of 12 inches and a loading of 2000 lbs. The example track width is also 12 inches. In this example, you have a force of 2000 lbs trying to turn the car over, because you have a slope percentage of 100%, or an angle of 45 degrees. If you widen this track width to 10 feet, you now have reduced the effort resultant to just 10%. The loading is still the same, you have just applied it over a longer distance. This wider distance forces the effort required to turn to increase. To illustrate this, think of a dual rear wheel pickup. Generally, the track width on the front axle is wider than the duals (dual track is measured to the midpoint distance between the tandem ground contact patches). By removing the outer rear tires and wheels, you have drastically decreased the rear track width and, for the same loading as in the example, now will cause the tail of the truck to become very "loose" and easily break traction in a corner, while the front end will "plow" off a corner in a straight line.

Be aware this is a VERY simplified explanation, and is ignoring a BUNCH of other inputs.

Best regards,

Bob Sheaves
CEO
catNET Incorporated
http://www.catnetsolutions.com