Eco-Roamer - F650 based Expedition Vehicle [Archive]

jayshapiro

10-29-2007, 03:14 PM

Well, after 2 years of planning, sketching and shopping I'm very happy to announce that our expedition vehicle is finally under way! :wings:

We are calling the project ECO-ROAMER and the intention is to build it in as environmentally friendly a manner as a diesel-belching-round-the-world-20,000-pound-truck can be...

I have taken great inspiration and learning from everyone here at ExPo, so I'm delighted that over the next several months we'll finally be able to contribute back to the community and share our build-up as it progresses.

First a few details:

THE TRUCK:
This was the probably the hardest part. We had some fundamental requirements that limited the choices:

4x4 - obviously
crew cab - 2 kids!
diesel
global service network
big enough to handle a 'big' camper body
available in the USA for the build
comfortable for HOURS of highway driving
[/LIST]

This eliminated several popular choices:

Mitsu FG - Too Small
Toyota Hino - Crew cab 4x4 only avail in Australia
MAN - Not avail in USA
Mog - Not ideal for highway cruising & crew cab limitations
GM Topkick 5500 - Duramax Not globally serviceable
Ford F550 - Engine not serviceable
[/LIST]

Which basically left the International, and the Ford F-650.

International has a good dealer network, but we felt that CAT has an even broader parts/service network, and so we leaned towards the F-650 with the CAT C-7 engine and Allison 6-spd transmission. Both trucks can have the same Meritor axles, the same 2-piece wheels, the same MPT81 tyres, and similar load ratings.

Finally, we hit the ULSD diesel emissions challenge, so we decided to buy a pre-emissions control 2007 or earlier truck. Finding a 'slightly used' one that matched all our criteria proved to be very difficult until we found a crazy F-650 pickup with 3,000 miles and a distressed owner in need of selling.

We bought the truck, and will remove and sell the pick-up bed.

Since it's a 2007 there should be no problem running it off 'mostly' Bio-Diesel, where available. (i.e. North America & Western Europe)

Here is what the truck looks like so far...
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2243/1798214979_716c544498.jpg
The bull bar was just built by Layne Wright at Denver Offroad Bumpers. He did an amazing job designing and hand crafting it all out of very light weight (and recycled) aluminum. It's being powder coated black now. I'd STRONGLY recommend Layne to anyone!

The truck is on its way now to Tulsa Truck Manufacturing where Ron Turner and his guys are going to do the 4x4 conversion and stretch out / reinforce the frame.

THE CAMPER:

Over the past couple of years we looked at dozens of possible solutions for the camper. In the end we eliminated going with an off-the-shelf camper body like Doug Hackney's (very nice) unit. Most were too small, and there were too many unique things we wanted.

That took us down to a short list of three custom manufacturers:

Unicat - Extremely helpful, but also very expensive and rigid in their designs
PonyXpress - Just sold, too unresponsive
StarTracks - Very willing to work with our designs & based in the USA which keeps costs low compared to shipping the truck back and forth to Germany.

We're still working on the details of the design and have had some great ideas & revisions so far. The current design looks like it will be 17ft long, plus 2 single beds for the kids above the cab.

The current plan looks something like this:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2092/1799087412_3b30bae29e.jpg

Here's a 3D view of the interior that gives a better sense of how it fits together:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2347/1799087530_b1535ad601.jpg

The dinette lowers to a double bed for guests, and there is a queen bed for us that lowers from ceiling above the dinette.

On one hand 17ft BEHIND a crew cab feels like it's going to be a huge vehicle with a turning circle the size of a football field. On the other hand, 17ft is not a whole lot of space to plan out for full-time living space for two parents & two kids!

"ECO" COMPONENTS:

As I mentioned, we're trying to build the vehicle in as 'friendly' a way as possible. There are a ton of elements we've built in to the design from that perspective, but some of the highlights include:

Camper Shell - Made from Alucobond - 80% recycled aluminum composite
Solar Panels - 1.8KW of solar power on the roof
Cabinetry - All made from Bamboo, not "wood"
Counters - Made from Richlite recycled paper board composites
Flooring - Laminate mounted to recycled composite boards, not plywood
Sewage - Diesel fired incinerator to avoid dumping our waste around the world
Insulation - Very substantial to reduce heating/air-con power usage
Lighting - MR16 converted lights to low-power LED arrays
Fuel - No propane on board, everything can run off the bio-diesel (or regular diesel if necessary) and/or solar / generator.

-----------------
Stay tuned for more pics and details over the coming months...

Very excited,
Jay.

Ursidae69

10-29-2007, 03:32 PM

Cool designs and ideas. :lurk:

kcowyo

10-29-2007, 03:34 PM

Congratulations on finding a truck for your build. Looks like you've found a winner.

Glad to hear Layne is still in the bumper biz. I've heard great things about his abilities with aluminum.

I'll be eagerly anticipating updates on this project - :lurk:

Rhode Trip

10-29-2007, 03:46 PM

Looking forward to following your build. Thanks.

jayshapiro

10-29-2007, 03:53 PM

A quick question...Do you have plans to use the cab for anything other than place for you and your family to sit while on the road?

Yes! It's a huge space, so we've got equally big plans...

We've got Alton (http://www.altonco.com) doing the conversion work on the cab after Tulsa (http://www.tulsatruckmfg.com/) are finished with it.

They will be:

Stretching out the cab by 22" and putting a pass through into the camper
Swapping the rear bench for 2 captains chairs
Mounting all 4 captains chairs on swivel bases so the front two can turn to face the kids in the rear, and the rear two can spin around to face to fold-down desks on the rear wall.
'Flattening' the floor (eliminating the humps) to carry the camper floor through into the cab to make it feel like part of the living space

Any other ideas for us?

Cheers,
Jay.

PS - Forgot to mention, we've still got your lock hasps on the list of items for the cab doors. We need to get those from you at some point!

charlieaarons

10-29-2007, 09:31 PM

Congratulations.
What is the GVW of your chassis? My guess is that fully loaded "wet", with tools, parts, food, people etc. you'll be at 25-30K lb.
What tires are you going to run? My personal choice with duals would be 13R22.5 XZLs. If you are going to try to run single MPT81s I believe their largest load capacity is 152K (7100kg/15620 lb per axle), insufficient IMHO for you. You'll need 365-395/85R20 or 425-445/65R22.5 for singles in the rear.
Are you going to construct the camper yourself, or have someone build the shell and finish it?

Charlie

Robthebrit

10-29-2007, 10:02 PM

Great choice of truck, I'm keen to see how it performs when its built. The CAT engine is a beast.

Charlie:

Do XZL's have a higher load than MTP81s? Don't you run them?

From my sidewalls:

335/80r20 XZL 4670 at 55psi (9340 per axle).
335/80r20 MPT81 6720 at 90psi (13440 per axle)
365/80r20 MPT81 8760 at 85psi (17520 per axle)

The equivalent size MPT81 has 50% more load, albeit at a higher pressure. I don't have a set of 365 XZLs to compare to the MPT81's. I personally prefer MPT81's as they run silent and dead straight, XZL's can be hard to balance and a 200+ pound tire shakes the whole truck when it wobbles (use beads or something made a huge difference for me). XZLs have one huge advantage in that they can run with or without tubes and are good in mud where MPT81's are not so good.

It's hard to pick, they are both great tires. Sticking with 22.5 inch semi type rims is a good call, you can get tires all over the world in one form or another. 20 inch tires (mog tires) can be very difficult to get.

Rob

cyclic

10-29-2007, 11:26 PM

Another thought, if you do go with singles you can do a 4 wheel steering set-up. It would greatly decrease your turning radius.

HMR

10-29-2007, 11:39 PM

WOW!

Lynn

10-30-2007, 12:04 AM

Mounting all 4 captains chairs on swivel bases so the front two can turn to face the kids in the rear, and the rear two can spin around to face to fold-down desks on the rear wall.

Sounds like a great plan, but I thougth you should be aware it may not be legal. I read on Sportsmobile's site that they are no longer offering swiveling rear seats due to new federal regulations:

http://www.sportsmobile.com/1_options.html#fc_intopt

Addited: When I first read this I somehow assumed you were going to be building them for production. If it's just for private use, the above may be N/A.

WRT other ideas, I like the Class Bs that have swivel seats that are used as the dinette, like RoadTrek did. However, with two kids I think the single table would be a pain. My kids are going to be in boosters for the next few years, so it's not practical for them to use the front seats during meals. When it comes meal time, I think it would be better if the front two swiveled to face the rear two, then have a small tables on each side. Kind of like two, two-person dinettes. That way the hallway is open so that the parents can come and go from the front seats. You could always have a fold-up section in the middle, if you wanted to, that would convert the two small tables to one wall-to-wall one.

charlieaarons

10-30-2007, 01:33 AM

pygmyowl

10-30-2007, 01:59 AM

Streakerfreak

10-30-2007, 04:01 AM

There are a few of those around town here. One guy even uses it as a daily driver:rolleyes: :smilies27 There is not a speck of dirt or scratch on it. Very dumb in my opinion, but those beasts do serve a purpose. If your on this forum I'm sure your heading in the right direction. That truck will make heads turn, have fun with it.

Northern Explorer

10-30-2007, 08:06 AM

jayshapiro

10-30-2007, 01:30 PM

Hi All,
Thanks for your many great comments and suggestions. This is why I love ExPo.

Below are some of my responses to your intial suggestions.

We are planning on creating the Eco-Roamer as an 'Open Source Expedition Vehicle' - so I'll be posting up all the components and decisions we've made over the next few months. I'll be happy to have any of your advice / suggestions.

I'd be flattered to bump into another eco-roamer somewhere on the road and know that our notes were of some help to building more great vehicles.

Cheers,
Jay.

jayshapiro

10-30-2007, 01:47 PM

Rob, I didn't know 365/80R20 MPT81s went that high. I thought they just went to 152K. But I doubt even 17520 in the rear will be enough. My U500 absolutely maxed out ready to travel is 8100kg in the rear or 17800 lb. His camper is roughly 10% longer than mine and he has the crewcab and a half.
Weight is always the biggest issue!

Charlie

Charlie,
I agree that weight is a heavy issue on this one! (pardon the pun)

We are running the 365 MPT81's in a super single format front / rear. We chose these because of two reasons:
1) Anybody I spoke to / read - who had run both XZL & MPT81, said that the MPT's run smoother, straighter, quieter.
2) Michelin's entire 20" XZL stock for the next 12 months has already been booked by the USA Army for Iraq. We tried to scrounge together 5 pieces, but ultimately thought it a bad idea to commit ourselves to a tyre with limited future availability possibly.

No doubt, the tires will be our weakest point.

Here's how the rest breaks down:

TIRES:
MPT81 tyres = rated at 17520 per axle = 35,040 lbs
Wheels = upgraded from Alcoas to 2-piece solid disc steel wheels

AXLES:
Front axle = upgraded to Meritor 14,000 lb drive axle
Rear axle = upgraded 21,000 lb LSD axle
Total = 35,000 lbs (I know... it's not split 50/50)

GVWR:
The truck is technically rated for 26,000 lbs from Ford
In addition to the axles, we're reinforcing the frame (sleeved)
Actual capability???

STUFF:
I'm keeping a spreadsheet with all the crap we're putting in to the vehicle, including furniture, the shell, and liquids. My current calculation puts it at: 19,000 lbs - which is probably wrong. Even if we up that by 33% it's still 25,750 lbs -- so I'm hoping that we should be ok!

No doubt it's going to be a heavy beast though...:26_13_1:

Cheers,
Jay.

jayshapiro

10-30-2007, 02:09 PM

That is one massive truck. I'm sure I will get some arrows slung at me, but can't help but see how in the world that monster is some how going to be construed as being environmentally friendly is beyond me, even given your use of mostly recycled products for the camper.

Pygmyowl,

We struggled with this question a lot too... Is it really possible to be environmentally friendly when you're driving an 11mpg truck around the world?

We looked at hybrid drives for the truck but they are WAY too much money, and too unreliable to take into the middle of nowhere.

Here's the four main reasons why we feel confident that we're doing the right thing:

1) Wherever possible we're using materials that are recycled or at least sustainable. (eg: Bamboo cabinetry and 'plyboo (http://www.plyboo.com/)')

2) We are planning to be 'carbon neutral' by offsetting our carbon footprint (for the manufacturing & driving) with credits towards projects like: renewable energy or tree planting, etc. Ford actually has a pretty good partner program with: Terra Pass (http://www.terrapass.com/ford/index.html)

3) My wife and I have spent the past 8 years flying around the world for work, racking up about 1 million miles between us. (ugh!) We want our kids to see the world, but a simple calculation shows that actually driving is a better way to do it, environmentally.

A single round trip flight from San Francisco to Singapore on a 747 with 2 adults + 2 kids contributes roughly 50,000 kg of CO2 (just our portion, not to mention the rest of the plane!) - calculation reference (http://bristlingbadger.blogspot.com/2007/05/ju)

On the other hand, if the four of us drive say 50,000 miles (more than triple the distance of the flight) we still emit less CO2 (about 40,000kg) - and we get to see the whole world along the way...

4) By teaching our kids to enjoy and value the world, and contributing to development/environment projects along the way, and publicizing the possibility of building an "eco-friendly RV" - maybe we can influence some future decisions and innovations.

SO, overall are we still contributing to the polution? - yes I suppose so.

We could just stay home and watch a DVD. But if you are going to go out and explore this amazing planet of ours, then I'd like to think that we're doing it in a pretty friendly way.

...Or at least that's our justification and we're stickin' to it!

Jay.

pygmyowl

10-30-2007, 02:10 PM

boblynch

10-30-2007, 02:17 PM

jayshapiro

10-30-2007, 02:36 PM

Northern Explorer

10-30-2007, 05:36 PM

Maybe Scott or one of the other 'experienced' travellers could let me know the GPS coordinates for the best KOA RV parks and dumping stations in the Sahara or Serenghetti!

:oops:

;-) Jay.

:xxrotflma

kcowyo

10-30-2007, 07:05 PM

As far as “Eco”, IMHO anyone on this board that meticulously specs out a rig (however large), lives within the confines of the small storage space and water storage capabilities, spends extended time in the backcountry, and leaves as small a footprint as possible is “Eco” in my book.

Long term expedition travelers are probably not heating/cooling large homes, sitting in traffic for hours a day in our v8 luxury SUV, shopping endlessly to fill our house and garage with crap we’ll later donate to charity, watering our large chemically treated lawns to keep them greener than the neighbors, ignoring our kids while they play video games on the big screen TV, and flooding the world with security lights so the “wrong kind of people” don’t intrude on our manicured lifestyle. Don’t look down on these folks at least they recycle their water bottles and are better than the neighbors 10 feet away who drive the dreaded H2.

Well said Bob.

The most eco-friendly thing any of us could do is to not be born, but it's a little late for that now isn't it?

I find it admirable that Jay is taking into account the effects his build and trip will have on the environment, while showing his children the world and presumably teaching them about being eco-friendly as well. Within the parameters of what Jay is trying to achieve, I see no harm or hypocrisy in labelling his build as eco-friendly or an eco-roamer or an eco-big truck with recycled parts.

He should be commended for taking these things into account. For every action there is an opposite and equal reaction, right? Taking into consideration the reactions before they occur, and passing that mindset onto the next generation, is being eco-friendly in my eyes.

:beer:

Willman

10-31-2007, 01:44 AM

Very nice!

Here's a great rig to check out!

EarthRoamer (http://www.earthroamer.com/)

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f374/nicwillman/DSC03655.jpg

Wonder if they could help........

Good luck and i'll be watching this sweet built!

Oh and Welcome the ExPo!!!

:)

mountainpete

10-31-2007, 02:11 AM

Just saw this thread - what an amazing project! Looking foward to watching it grow.

And welcome to ExPo :26_7_2:

Streakerfreak

10-31-2007, 02:21 AM

Jay, Congratulations on the project. My wife, kids, and I are following your build progress with much excitement. For now we’re planning a smaller setup for domestic travel. However we would love to meet on the road later in life driving Eco-Roamer version 2.0.

As far as “Eco”, IMHO anyone on this board that meticulously specs out a rig (however large), lives within the confines of the small storage space and water storage capabilities, spends extended time in the backcountry, and leaves as small a footprint as possible is “Eco” in my book.

Long term expedition travelers are probably not heating/cooling large homes, sitting in traffic for hours a day in our v8 luxury SUV, shopping endlessly to fill our house and garage with crap we’ll later donate to charity, watering our large chemically treated lawns to keep them greener than the neighbors, ignoring our kids while they play video games on the big screen TV, and flooding the world with security lights so the “wrong kind of people” don’t intrude on our manicured lifestyle. Don’t look down on these folks at least they recycle their water bottles and are better than the neighbors 10 feet away who drive the dreaded H2.

Thanks for all the PMs, encouragement, and inspiration. Best of luck on the build!

Bob

Perfect! You hit the nail on the head. There is a huge difference between the people here on this forum and the guy in the lifted H2 with large chrome wheels, and tv's in every head rest. With my fiance being a marine scientist we both have a great understanding of the environment and what it means to be "Eco". He probaly has a smaller foot print then these people here in Eugene driving VW buses that are 30+ years old, pieces falling off, and have not had an oil change in years who drive around preaching about the environment when they have no clue.

Overdrive

11-01-2007, 03:24 AM

Cool build, Jay!!!!!

The most eco-friendly thing any of us could do is to not be born, but it's a little late for that now isn't it?

:iagree:

jayshapiro

11-02-2007, 12:26 AM

Who says you can't be "eco-friendly" and "mean-looking" at the same time!?

Here's a picture of the just finished Bull Bar...

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2196/1818354542_b080aa1bee.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2350/1818368400_b1661fa86e.jpg

I'm really happy with how it came out!

- just to give a sense of size, those are 8" lights in the center!

- there's a Warn 16.5ti winch hidden behind the bumper.

It was custom built by Layne Wright at Denver Offroad Bumpers [tel: (970)464-5566] He's already got at least one more order off the back of this one. I researched around and couldn't find any good alternatives for the F-650, so we went down this route. Layne was recommended to me by MarcXP on ExPo.

The truck is now finally in Tulsa to have the axles changed and the frame stretched. Stay tuned...

Cheers,
Jay.

Jeep

11-02-2007, 03:47 AM

Cool rig, very much alongside the needs and plans for my family. Way back in the days of the GM motorhomes they had a macerator that would burn the sewage off through the exhaust while driving, I don't know if that appeals to you but I just thought I would bring it up.

Robthebrit

11-02-2007, 11:14 PM

jayshapiro

11-03-2007, 09:18 AM

Jay,

What toilet are you looking at? I considered one and looked into the Espar diesel incinerator toilet and they said they are not available in the US. I found a number of electric incinerators but they require something like 2000W at 110v for a fair amount of time. Ultimately, I found one called "Ecojohn WC16" which is a US made diesel incinerator, the same company also makes a propane version if you are going down that path.

Hi Rob,

I suppose it's a small industry... We're using the EcoJohn WC16 (http://www.ecojohn.com/ecojohn_wc16.html)also. We started looking at the options and found the Espar/ Eberspacher WC16 (http://www.eberspacher.com/waste.php?section=products), which seems to be the exact unit that EcoJohn is selling in North America.

We're attaching it to a "Raritan Atlantes Freedom (http://www.raritaneng.com/products/toilets/electric/atlantes.html)" 12v Self Macerating toilet.

I feel that the WC16 is overkill for our needs and is bigger / heavier than we would like, but as you pointed out, the smaller WC5 is only available in a propane version and not diesel. All along we've been struggling to remain (bio-)diesel only - with no propane on board, but at several thousand dollars more and a fair bit of space, the incinerator is starting to make me question that...

I've been justifying it to myself so far by saying "well at least we save space / weight on having a black water tank" - but I'm not sure if that's enough.

If we did carry propane, then I could run the Jackson BBQ (http://www.jacksongrills.com/productsVersa100.htm) off it as well, as opposed to the tiny tanks.

I think I'm open to being swayed on this one... :(

Cheers,
Jay.

DaveInDenver

11-03-2007, 01:30 PM

kcowyo

11-03-2007, 04:15 PM

Aw c'mon guys, lighten up...:REOutShootinghunter

Owning & driving a particular vehicle doesn't make you green or eco-conscious. Attitude, state of mind and behavior make you eco-friendly. Just the fact that Shapiro has this in mind while building his truck makes him miles ahead of most 4wd owners (and most Hybrid owners), who talk the talk but don't walk the walk.

neliconcept

11-03-2007, 05:10 PM

this is going to be sweet, cant wait to see final product.

Redline

11-03-2007, 06:03 PM

What suspension does the chassis have? Leaf springs (stiff?) or some type of air suspension? Are you thinking of changing or modifying what it has?

James

jayshapiro

11-04-2007, 01:37 PM

What suspension does the chassis have? Leaf springs (stiff?) or some type of air suspension? Are you thinking of changing or modifying what it has?

James

The suspension was actually one of our first challenges. I had posted a thread about it here (http://expeditionportal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6567) back in July.

My original intention had been to go with leaf springs all around. Stiff, but simple and reliable. There's not much that can wrong with a leaf spring, and if they do, there's mechanics around the world who can fix a stack for you.

However, the candidate trucks that we found had air suspension in the rear, and leafs up front. I asked around (including on ExPo) and decided that it was still ok, and we went ahead with it.

The choice then was to swap out the front leafs with airbags? We decided not to, as the same 'ride' benefits could be accomplished by putting airbags under the cab, and if necessary under the seats. This keeps the easily damaged bags up and out of harms way. Also, if they fail, it's not such a big deal as you're still riding on the base leaf suspension.

The only other choice was whether or not to convert the rear back to a leaf. I think for the moment, we'll carry on with the air suspension - which rides nicer anyhow - can be aired down if we want to - and is fairly cheap to just carry one spare bag in case of a tear.

Here's what the rear looks like...
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2405/1856388597_2ba6c473ba.jpg

Cheers,
Jay.

calamaridog

11-04-2007, 03:20 PM

Seems to be some delusion here - using precious fossil fuels (ie, diesel) to burn your human waste, and then touting this as one of your "Eco Components", when you could simply go to an RV dump and get it treated properly - I must be missing something - even overseas, in most places if you put forth the effort you can dispose of your waste an a proper treatment facility.

Who is being delusional here? Waste treatment is accomplished in the US by expending vast amounts of energy, much of which is derived from fossil fuels. What is the difference exactly?

Burning waste is much prefered to simply dumping it, IF chemical treatment or waste treatment is unavailable.

In most places "overseas", there will be no practical waste treatment options. It's not like they will be doing a world tour of all the worlds major metropolitain areas. Rural areas often lack even basic sanitation.

From WHO:

"Despite continued efforts to promote sanitation 40% of the world's population is still without basic sanitation. This number does not tell the whole story, sanitation coverage is often much lower in rural areas than in urban areas. For example, in Africa 84% of urban but only 45% of rural residents have access to basic sanitation. The numbers are similar in Asia where 78% of urban and 31% of rural residents have access to basic sanitation (WHO, 2000)."

I guess what I'm saying is that burning some poop in the middle of nowhere sounds ecologically sound to me.

kcowyo

11-04-2007, 03:28 PM

Here's what the rear looks like...
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2405/1856388597_2ba6c473ba.jpg

Those bags are HUGE!!

Mine are the size of a pop can, those look like kegs. In addition to a spare bag, you may consider bringing two spare airlines as well.

calamaridog

11-04-2007, 03:31 PM

I happen to agree. This thing may be less bad than other RVs, but it's still a monster that's using lots more than zero resources. Absolutely no need to be apologetic for living and doing your thing, but also be realistic about it's cost. It's probably worth it to have the space and convenience, but honestly that thing seems like a behemoth. It's all in the eye of the beholder, we are childless and so even the idea of a full size pickup seems ridiculously wasteful to us.

I fail to understand your logic. Am I missing something here? Did anyone claim this was a zero resource build? How is that even possible?

How does this vehicle seem like a "behemoth"? They are traveling around the world with two children. This vehicle is a conveyance, home, and classroom, all rolled into one. Seems like a small footprint to me for such duties, but maybe I am failing to consider some issues?

BTW Jay, I think this build is awesome, and I look forward to following your progress. I love the bumper, very :cow:

Jeep

11-04-2007, 05:29 PM

I happen to agree. This thing may be less bad than other RVs, but it's still a monster that's using lots more than zero resources. Absolutely no need to be apologetic for living and doing your thing, but also be realistic about it's cost. It's probably worth it to have the space and convenience, but honestly that thing seems like a behemoth. It's all in the eye of the beholder, we are childless and so even the idea of a full size pickup seems ridiculously wasteful to us.

We were childless once....a tent and the Jeep were just great. But with 2 children now Jay's rig is just starting to seem adequate. What an incredible way to recreate with your children. If I were happy with calling the KOA adventure I'd be in a nice shiny Prevost. But we, members of this forum are outdoorsman, and man made attractions don't hold a candle to mother nature. It is all in the eye of the beholder and it will most likely have a much smaller carbon footprint than a Prevost!

Kermit

11-04-2007, 07:23 PM

Jay,

Are you keeping the dual wheels? When you flatten the floor, are you making extra storage space as well?

This is going to be awesome build, good luck with it.

The truck is going to be cool, but, I am interested in your travel plans, where are planning on taking the beast, are you pulling the kids out of school, then "home" schooling them?

ckkone

11-07-2007, 03:18 PM

Bumper looks great, it's going to be exciting to follow your build.

DaveInDenver

11-07-2007, 03:39 PM

How does this vehicle seem like a "behemoth"? They are traveling around the world with two children. This vehicle is a conveyance, home, and classroom, all rolled into one. Seems like a small footprint to me for such duties, but maybe I am failing to consider some issues?
It's possible that I am missing it. Entirely possible. I'm out of step with a lot of things anymore. Anyway, if he is selling his house and does not have a regular job then he is truly reducing his footprint.

jayshapiro

11-07-2007, 09:05 PM

Are you keeping the dual wheels? When you flatten the floor, are you making extra storage space as well?

This is going to be awesome build, good luck with it.

The truck is going to be cool, but, I am interested in your travel plans, where are planning on taking the beast, are you pulling the kids out of school, then "home" schooling them?

Thanks for the feedback!

We're converting the rear 'duallies' to 'super singles' using Continental MPT81's (http://www.expeditionimports.zoovy.com/product/0330052)mounted on custom 2-piece steel wheels from USA6x6 (http://www.usa6x6.com). (although that's in theory as the wheels are now 1 month late and Daniel keeps promising he'll have them ready "tomorrow"!)

Oh, and the kids are still tiny, but yes the plan is to homeschool them as we travel.

Cheers,
Jay.

jayshapiro

11-07-2007, 09:31 PM

What are your plans for attaching the shelter to truck frame?
Any thoughts on a torsion-free mount?

like this:
http://bp2.blogger.com/_-iSeesP7yEw/RcX6C-owEdI/AAAAAAAAAOc/WVwCKEew2qE/s1600-h/Lassen+2.JPG

We're definitely mounting the camper box on a 3-point dynamic mount. Don't want it twisting itself all out of shape.

At the same time we're reinforcing ("Sleeving") the F-650's frame rails to try and reinforce them to reduce some of the flex there anyhow.

For inspiration and ideas on the torsion free mounts I've taken a look at the designs by:
- Doug Hackney (http://www.hackneys.com/mitsu/index-pivot-frame.htm)
- Rob Gray (http://www.robgray.com/wothahellizat/diaries/diary_10/index.php)
- Earthroamer (http://www.earthroamer.com/tab_xpedition_vehicles/xvlt5_specs.html)

One of the challenges we have is that since we're not using a cab-over type chassis (like an FG or MAN) and have the engine out front, we want to take advantage of the space over the cab for a sleeping area. (See my line drawing earlier in this thread) But, since that's attached to the camper it will roll around in line with the camper box as it 'moves' on the 3-point mount. I'm worried about the over-cab sleeping berth smashing into the roof of the cab if it flexes too much, and so we're having to leave a pretty big (8") gap between the two, which is pretty ugly...

I'm open to suggestions. We thought about mounting the sleeping berth directly on the cab with a bellows between it and the camper, which might work but also looks pretty weird...

Cheers,
Jay.

Lynn

11-07-2007, 11:51 PM

We're definitely mounting the camper box on a 3-point dynamic mount.
//snip//
I'm open to suggestions. We thought about mounting the sleeping berth directly on the cab with a bellows between it and the camper, which might work but also looks pretty weird...

I really hope you come up with something really slick, because I also want a cab-over, and want you to do the design work. ;)

A less-comon torsion-free mount is the four-point. One front center, one rear center, and one on each side, in a diamond patern.

I wonder if you could mount the cab AND camper on a subframe, then use the four-point to attach the subframe to the chassis. That way you could rigidly attach the camper to the cab, and have the whole thing isolated from the chassis.

Pretty serious design and fab involved, though.

charlieaarons

11-08-2007, 12:45 AM

Unicat actually uses a diamond shaped pattern; the front and rear mounts rotate side to side, the center mounts forwards and back.

Charlie

Robthebrit

11-08-2007, 01:41 AM

My camper is a 4 point diamond mount too, front and back mounts pivot left/reft and the center mounts are rigidly attached.

How much twist will you get from that chassis after you have made it more rigid? Will you need a multi-point torsion free mount? I would not of thought it would bend that much considering the cab is firmly attached to it, there is a down side to torsion free mount and that is it raises your camper box about 6 inches.

Charlie and my campers need the torision free mounts due to how twisty a mog frame can be but everything on the frame is torsion free. I am not sure what Charlies unicat does but on mine the top part of the pivots and the entire subframe are built into the floor structure of the camper, allowing it to be as low as possible. On a typical mog camper there is a spider frame that mounts torsion free and the camper sits on that frame, mine combines them into one. Looking at my other 416, the camper would been raised by a lot more than 6 inches if they had done it using a stadard subframe.

I can take photos if you wish.

Rob

Lynn

11-08-2007, 05:22 PM

I should add that I mentioned the 4-point because for a given amount of frame flex the camper movement could be less.

Let's say you have an 8' camper on a three point. When the frame flexes 6", that means you need 6" of clearance at the 'free' end of the camper.

With the same flex on a 4-point, you may need 3" of clearance at each end of the camper, rather than 6" at one end.

Think of solid mounting points as the 'fulcrums'.

3-point:

___________
^................

4-point:

___________
.......^.........

Or am I all wet?

jayshapiro

11-09-2007, 09:13 PM

Thanks Charlie / Rob / Lynn,

That helps a lot. I will think about the diamond style mount and see how we can make it work with our design.

I trust that in your designs all four points are hard mounted to the chassis frame and are not mounted in 'series' the way a universal joint would be with the 2 lateral pivots being attached 'after' the 2 longitudinal?

Do any of you have any damping / shock absorbers in any direction, the way Doug has built? Or is that not necessary once you introduce the fourth point?

ROB - I'd love to see some pics if it's not too much trouble.

Thanks guys!

Jay.

Robthebrit

11-09-2007, 09:51 PM

I do not have shocks, my two pivot mounts have very tight fitting rubber bushings. I don't have any problems with sway, it does move when you are on the inside due to the suspension but no more than any other truck. You really only see the mounts moving when you are driving over uneven ground.

Look at the attached pic, you can see the mount doing its thing by looking a the angle between the fuel tank and the camper box.

I'll get you some close up pictures.

Rob

charlieaarons

11-09-2007, 10:34 PM

No shocks on mine.
The middle of the diamond is a long tubular structure bolted to the bottom of the camper, attached to the frame of the truck via a few inches on each side of tubular mount around the inner tube. Insulated with fairly thick rubber to absorb twisting forces which develop with a 4 point system.
3 points always define a plane, 4 don't necessarily stay in a plane.

Charlie

crazyjane

11-10-2007, 11:35 AM

I like what this guy is doing here.

www.robgray.com

Redline

11-10-2007, 05:38 PM

They are all "RVs" in that they are largely used for recreation...

Similarly, I don't care for the marketing term/label "Sport Utility Vehicle" / SUV, but prefer the old term 'Utility Vehicle'. My bias is that as the 'Sport' was added Utility was reduced.

BUT, if we can get beyond the semantics these large overlanders are surely RVs or Motorhomes - and certainly the best kind.

Robthebrit

11-11-2007, 12:39 AM

Call me daft...

But wouldn't it be wise to get your body mods finished & 4x4 driveline in, then....

Test just how far your frame flexes, then...

Design the box mounting system???

That way you will be able to accurately determine:

* The sweep of the cab-over part of the box, over the cab.
* The flexable "pass-through" connection between cab & box
* The most cost effective mounting system THAT WEIGHS THE LEAST.

I wonder how many "expedition" vehicles there are out there with elaborate mounting systems....Just so that the owner can say "NO! THIS IS NOT AN RV! SEE! I'VE GOT A 3 POINT MOUNTED BOX!"

I'd sure hate to see you throw good money after bad.

This is really good advise, like I said before, How much will it flex when you have done all the frame mods? Some rubber bushings may be all you need.

On a mog you have to deal with it, end of story, but a F650 is not know for being super flexible.

jayshapiro

11-11-2007, 03:45 AM

joaquin,
you're daft. ...Ok, now that that's out of the way:

I actually agree with you. The F650 is a complete unknown in terms of flex, especially with the stretch and reinforcement I'm putting on it.

The truck is in Tulsa literally this week having those done and then we're going to test it out. (I my need to borrow your forklift!)

In the mean time design work on the 'box' is underway. Then we will finalize how to mate the two together. In the mean time I'm trying to gather opinions and learnings, so that we're ready to make an intelligent decision as soon as the time comes.

If all goes well, it will be stiff as hell and I can save a few inches on my CG, and a lot of weight.

What did you do with Casa? Direct mount? (don't worry that doesn't make it an 'rv' in my eyes, that was already decided by your choice of curtains!!)

Cheers,
Jay.

bigford

11-12-2007, 12:37 AM

OutbacKamper

11-12-2007, 01:05 AM

I explained the mounting of the box on Casa on one of the threads in Expedition Campers, and of course I'm a day late in trying to recover that info so i'll start over.

JS;
To the best of my knowledge all the posts are still there, you just can't add more. You can still link to posts at ExpeditionCampers and cut and paste from them etc. If you have any trouble send Chip a pm and he can help, or let me know. We don't want to loose all that info, it will eventually all be copied to ExPo, the old website is going to be up for a year at least in read only format.

Cheers
Mark

Carlyle

11-12-2007, 03:02 PM

Awesome build up!

But where are the old expedition forum write ups?

jayshapiro

11-13-2007, 05:41 AM

That is an outstanding rig you are building. My .02 here: My F-700 is a double-frame truck and flex is limited. Running the bags in the rear, you will probably have to bottom one of them out to see any major flex as they "give" more than the leaf springs do. The sway bar is going to be punished.:wings:

Hi BigFord,

Thanks for the advice. Haven't seen your vehicle before, any pics? I'm very eager not to break old ground on this one so if you have already been down the Ford road I'd love to learn more about it...

Cheers,
jay.

haven

11-13-2007, 06:23 AM

from the expeditioncampers.com archives:

"Casa Azul's box was set on the frame then 6 LOOOOOONG u-bolt were feed over the box frame and straddle both the box frame & the truck frame. A plate then is pushed onto the U-bolt then a heavy die spring is set on each of the legs of the u-bolt and another plate is mounted to ubolt that sandwiches the springs. washers and nut are then added to the u-bolts, then tightened until the springs are slightly compressed.

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z241/expeditioncampers/suavespring.jpg

Then as the truck frame flexes, the box has the springs on the u-bolts to compensate for the movement.

Granted it is not the sexiest solution, but given that Casa Azul's frame was modified into a "Z" frame (for the 4x4 running gear) there is very little flex in the frame anyway. "

As OutbacKamper points out, the expeditioncampers.com forum is still available. While no new posts can be made, the old material is all there. Anyone can search it without logging in. Check it out at
http://www.expeditioncampers.com/phpbb2/index.php

Chip Haven

jayshapiro

12-16-2007, 07:39 PM

Hi Guys,

OK, here is the long overdue update on the Eco-Roamer project. It's been a packed month...

The truck has spent the past few weeks in Tulsa, Oklahoma with Ron Turner and his guys at Tulsa Truck Manufacturing (http://www.tulsatruckmfg.com/). They have been working on the 4x4 conversion and stretching out the frame. I can't recommend them enough, as they have been amazingly helpful and Ron has 30yrs of experience which he's been happy to share in advice with me.

I was in the states last week on a business trip, and stopped by Tulsa for a day to see my baby... Here are some latest pics:

4x4 CONVERSION:
We swapped out the Ford front axle for a Meritor 14,000lb drive axle, it's HUUUGE:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2099/2094139815_e617788944.jpg
The differential is offset to the right hand side.

The truck cab had to be raised substantially to clear the new axle and all the drive parts. (The old axle was U shaped to bend under the cab/transmission.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2400/2094916284_f14d247d8a.jpg
(Sorry about the dust in the photo - just to give it some scale, those are 43" tires!)

Here's the Meritor transfer case, the whole thing is activated with air solenoids run off the existing compressor for the air-bags and brakes:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2217/2094141695_e007aef3e1.jpg

Here's the controls they mounted on the dash in the cab. Very clean I think. One activates the 4x4, the other switches between high and low gears:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2132/2094912442_878f881461.jpg

FRAME EXTENSION:
While the truck is in Tulsa, they also stretched out the frame to make room for the camper box. I really would have preferred to buy a truck from Ford with a solid single frame that was long enough (to save strength) but since we wanted the slightly used 2007 truck (to avoid the emissions changes) we had to take what we could find.

Here's how they did it:

STEP ONE: "The first cut is the deepest"
Slice the existing frame rails, and add length with an angle weld joint. Talk about your scary cuts. Make sure you get the right spot!
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2208/2115986468_7ce6a053f1.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2283/2115989710_653e2271a1.jpg

STEP TWO: "Make a Sandwich"
Sandwich the joint with another 18" piece of steel to reinforce that section.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2114/2094141505_a9f1e34416.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2274/2094141323_9b0e3dea89.jpg

STEP THREE: "The L word"
Add 2 pieces of BIG L-Channels running the entire length of the frame (up to just under the cab) to strengthen the entire truck and reduce any frame flex.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2132/2094914184_41b7b32a2b.jpg

STEP FOUR: "Test, Test & Test some more"
They then re-mounted the rear axle in its new position further back, swapped in new gears for the differential and had a new drive shaft custom made to the right length.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2076/2094915160_c1a4eeef24.jpg

Finally, I took a lesson from Joaquim Suave (Thanks!) and decided to do a simple test on the chassis flex. We attached the very rear corner of just one of the frame rails to a chain-block lift in the shop and picked up the rear end by about 3ft.

The deflection between the two frame rails at the rear end was just 1.5 inches, and at the front end (just behind the cab wall) it was only 3/4 inch. I'm really impressed with how much that has stiffened up, and I think that all of our concerns about the dynamic sub-frame mount may not come in to play.

Thank you to everyone who made great suggestions, but given the lack of flex I think we may be ok with some substantial rubber bushings...

jayshapiro

12-16-2007, 07:54 PM

Continued...

Wheels and Tires:

The other news this week is that I finally got the chance to see my new wheels and tires.

Some of you may recall, that I had posted a thread several months back "Looking for Michelin XZL's or alternate 20" tires (http://expeditionportal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7770)" In the end we decided on the 14.5R20 Continental MPT81's which I ordered from Expedition Imports (http://www.expeditionimports.zoovy.com/). The guys there were very nice. They made a shipping mistake (forgot to send me the tubes I ordered) but were very fast to correct it.

I haven't had a chance to drive on the tires yet, but they look great and I can't wait to try them.

UNFORTUNATELY, the tires came mounted on the set of 20" split rim wheels that I ordered from USA6x6, which were scheduled to arrive 2 months ago...

Well, they finally showed up and they're pieces of junk at the moment. Four out of the five wheels have leaking welds that won't hold air (didn't they test them!?), they also forgot to put in the O-rings, and the stud holes are the wrong size. AAARRRGGHH! I've sent them back now and hope that they don't take another 2 months to come back. If I hadn't paid for them already I would just cancel the whole order, I'm so frustrated.

Hopefully they will get all fixed and be ok in the end. Here's what they look like though:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2198/2094915492_faf92a0ace.jpg

Next Steps:

The truck is going to go over to Car Toys (http://cartoystulsa.com/), to have a new anti-hijack immobilizer and stereo put in. More on that in a future post.

Then it is headed up to Alton in Michigan who are going to work on the cab.

In the mean time, planning on the camper box is progressing very well. Construction hasn't actually started yet, but I think we have (almost) all the components sorted out now, and the CAD drawings are almost done.

Stay tuned....

Jay.

Bayou Boy

12-16-2007, 09:51 PM

I have to ask.

Most of the time you size a winch for double your vehicle's weight or 1.5 times the GVWR. Why did you go with the "small" 16500lb Warn on a 30000 pound truck? Couldn't you have used some kind of PTO or hydraulic winch that would actually be useful in a self recovery. I can't help but think that that Warn would only be useful in the recovery of another much smaller vehicle.

On another note, this truck is going to be a pretty awesome travel vehicle.

boblynch

12-16-2007, 10:40 PM

Jay, the truck looks great. Sorry to hear about the USA6x6 experience. From what I've read lately, you're not alone. Good luck on the final CAD mockup, can't wait to see the pass thru after the big chop.

jayshapiro

12-16-2007, 11:35 PM

Most of the time you size a winch for double your vehicle's weight or 1.5 times the GVWR. Why did you go with the "small" 16500lb Warn on a 30000 pound truck? Couldn't you have used some kind of PTO or hydraulic winch that would actually be useful in a self recovery. I can't help but think that that Warn would only be useful in the recovery of another much smaller vehicle.

Bayou,

You raise a very good point that we thought quite a bit about. My original plans was for a hydraulic or PTO winch. We decided to go this route because:

HYDRAULIC - Would have been a pain because the truck has no existing hydraulics (air brakes, air suspension, no hydraulic pump) so the weight & complexity of adding it would have out-weighed (har har!) the benefits.

PTO - The used, non-emission trucks we found didn't have a PTO on them. I understand from CAT that this can be added after-market, by changing the crankcase I think. However, the people I've spoken to suggested that PTO is not a great option for winching because you are solely reliant on the winch and cannot engage the drive to help wheel out of a sticky situation. (The way you would with an electric or hydraulic winch)

WARN - We're thinking that the truck is going to come in around 22,000lbs. If we ALWAYS double back the winch wire with a pulley that gets us a capacity of 33,000lbs at half the speed. It's not the 2x rating that you suggested, but it should still get us about 1.5x which I think wil be ok.

Ideally, the winch will be a 'last resort' and we will rely on the kindness of fellow ExPo travellers and a tow strap, if we can...

No matter how you cut it though, it's a big truck and if those 42" 4x4 wheels do get stuck, chance are we're going to be really stuck...

Cheers,
Jay.

Jeep

12-17-2007, 03:05 AM

Looking good Jay,

Leaking welds mean porosity and lack of penetration, you might be farther ahead to ditch the wheels before they ditch you...catasrophically. In the next few days I am going to be posting some pics of a popular aftermarket LR winch bumper that blew apart and turned a minor collision into a much more dangerous situation. Review the pics I will be posting and then take a real hard look at your wheels and what is riding on top of them, including your family.

There should be a PTO take off on your transmission or transfer case, we install PTO pumps right on the transmissions and hydraulic winches/pickers all the time. I have been a Warn dealer since 1994 and that 16 500 is for the people you will be helping, not for you!

Frame work looks excellent! Looking forward to the rest of your build.

Cheers,
Mark.

spencyg

12-17-2007, 01:08 PM

Robthebrit

12-18-2007, 12:46 AM

Jay,

Things are looking great, I am glad you Expedition Imports did you well, they are really nice guys. I get most of my mog parts from them.

I am suprised by the small amount of flex but you did add a lot of steel to it. Remember even if you use rubber bushings for mounts there is still some stress on the box, enough to stretch/compress the rubber.

You probably don't need these any more but these are the photos of my campers mounts on a mog frame.

center mount 1 and center mount 2 so two different pictures of the rigid center mount. Its basically a piece of 100x50x6 that is welded to the frame and mounted to the camper. This is just in front of the rear wheels, you can see sway bar hardware in the bottom left of the pictures.

pivot1 and pivot2 show the pivot mounts which are at the front and rear, the pictures are of the rear mount. These are custom but are made from original mog pivots. Normally a mog would have the pivot above the frame but these where modified to be at frame level so the camper box can be lowered a few inches. Basically one part of the pivot is on a cross member of the ladder frame and the other part is on the camper. They are held together by a giant bolt and some rubber bushings.

The idea is that any tension is taken by the mounts and not by the camper itself, the mounts are all pretty hefty and your camper will be way heavier than mine. The floor of my camper is fiberglass on the outside and marine ply on the inside, the wheel wells are just fiberglass inside and out. Overall the floor is about 2 inchs thick.

Hope that helps, let me know if you want more info. I have some of the original drawings but they are all on paper. Same offer here for the beer, if you are in LA, stop by because I am buying.

EDIT: Ok you can't see the filenames.. the first two pics are the center mount and the second two are the pivot mount.

Rob

805gregg

12-18-2007, 02:15 AM

So each one of your family needs 8,750lbs to survive, not even eco anything, try going with a smaller footprint to be eco.

Bayou Boy

12-18-2007, 02:22 AM

So each one of your family needs 8,750lbs to survive, not even eco anything, try going with a smaller footprint to be eco.

Weigh your house and contents and get back to us.

boblynch

12-18-2007, 02:35 AM

That's it, I've decided not to buy a new truck or a hybrid. I'm checking craigslist for a good mule. Does anyone know where to buy a cassette toilet with a very large seat. I hear mules !@#!$% a whole bunch.

This is a very interesting build that may or may not be everyone's cup of tea. He bought a used truck and is trying to show his kids the world. If the rig gets 10mpg for 4 people he'll be using less gas than your average daily driver sitting in traffic. Cut the man some slack.

haven

12-18-2007, 04:42 AM

There's a humorous article about the environmental
impact of living in an RV here. Full-timing can be
eco-friendly.
http://www.andybaird.com/travels/saving-the-earth.htm

calamaridog

12-18-2007, 06:12 AM

We are calling the project ECO-ROAMER and the intention is to build it in as environmentally friendly a manner as a diesel-belching-round-the-world-20,000-pound-truck can be...

I mean seriously, give the guy a break with all this self-righteous crap about what is ECO and what isn't.

Keep up the good work Jay. This is one of the more interesting build threads on the forum right now:beer:

Streakerfreak

12-18-2007, 02:40 PM

I mean seriously, give the guy a break with all this self-righteous crap about what is ECO and what isn't.

Keep up the good work Jay. This is one of the more interesting build threads on the forum right now:beer:

LOL, not too many build threads can you get into heated environmental arguments with. Kind of a same, but keeps people interested I guess.

pygmyowl

12-18-2007, 02:43 PM

Wanderlusty

12-18-2007, 03:31 PM

Curiously, I bet that had he not mentioned that he was going to make this an eco-friendly build, just "hey, I am building a truck to travel the world with" then there would not have been any adverse reaction.

But since he mentioned he is going to try to be 'green' wherever and whenever possible...he is being criticized.

Proof again that "no good deed goes unpunished".....

I am not sure what the naysayers would suggest as a substitute for a family of four to travel the world. I suppose some would just as soon that they would stay home than 'pollute the earth' but that goes contrary to EVERYTHING this site stands for...

They are going to tread pretty lightly all things considered...what more do you want?

Kermit

12-18-2007, 04:07 PM

Curiously, I bet that had he not mentioned that he was going to make this an eco-friendly build, just "hey, I am building a truck to travel the world with" then there would not have been any adverse reaction.

I was thinking the same thing.

Jay:

Great build, it is coming along nicely. You wouldn't be related to a guy named Ari, that has a smoothie shop in Tucson would you? Probably a long shot, you guys have the same last name, and from the Bay Area.

Streakerfreak

12-18-2007, 06:20 PM

Don't mention anything about being eco friendly on this post - I tried - the boys will jump down your throat big time - screw the Polar Bears - so what if they go extinct on our watch - keep on trucking in your 25,000 lb rigs - what the heck the kids are getting an education!

Hey man, having gone to college at a predominately Science/Marine Science based school and having a Marine Scientist as a fiancé I care greatly for the environment. But also coming from this background I can weed through the Media B.S. and trendy environmental stuff and make a real educated decision on what is really hurting the environment and that stuff like this can be eco-friendly.

A few examples of off bases information. You do realize that personal vehicles are not the main cause of pollution, industry is. How about this whole anti plastic bag thing. Take a guess as to which is more harmful for the environment. It's not plastic. Paper is by far more hurtful. You just need to recycle your plastic shopping bags. They are 100% recyclable, paper is not. I am just using this as an example as to one of the many areas were the media is doing more harm then good. Trendy environmental people will bash this man, an educated one will not.

Yes, this vehicle is a gas-guzzler and harmful for the environment. But, with all the steps this family is taking to reduce things in there lives, I can bet you this family leaves as much of a footprint as you do alone if not less then you or I.

With enough work and sacrifice, he can make a rig that is more eco-friendly then the average car out there.

Oh, by the way pygmyowl, what do you drive? Unless you drive a car made out of mud and that runs off of farts, leave this guy alone and let this guy work towards an eco-friendly rig.

Anyways, enough of this banter and let's keep this forum a friendly one. This is a thread about this really cool build and I can't wait to see more of it. Keep us informed as you go along.

ujoint

12-18-2007, 06:31 PM

I don't get the "Eco" thing either, it seems as if every day I see more & more people/companies jumping on the earth friendly bandwagon, whether they're really doing it or not. I think this is a great build, gonna be an awesome rig when finished. Maybe the Eco part will come more into play when the rig is closer to being finished. For what I've seen so far, it's just an Expedition rig taking shape.

Redline

12-18-2007, 06:33 PM

I like it :-)

There's a humorous article about the environmental
impact of living in an RV here. Full-timing can be
eco-friendly.
http://www.andybaird.com/travels/saving-the-earth.htm

Lynn

12-18-2007, 06:46 PM

Just a quick question here, but shouldn't you have done the frame flex test with the frame weighted? Isn't the unloaded frame going to flex far less unloaded then loaded?

kbellve

12-18-2007, 07:46 PM

Thanks for keeping us posted. I love reading this thread...

Just want to mention that my house takes nearly 200 gallons of heating oil a month during the winter. My wife's car takes about 60-80 gallons/month and we car pool 4 out of 5 days. When I drive my LX450, it takes about 100 gallons/month. I use about $125/month in electricity, which most comes from coal. 350 gallons * $3/gallon = $1050. $1050 + $125 = $1175

Convert that back to gallons... $1175/$3/gallon = 391 gallons

Lets say I got 10mpg in my RV. I could travel nearly 4000 miles/month or 40,000/year and still not use more fossil fuel than my family that has a house that doesn't move.

How many miles is he planning to drive each month? This planet is only so large (25,000mile circumference) and if he drives around the globe once/year, he would still use less fossil fuel than my family.

boblynch

12-18-2007, 08:07 PM

Dear Moderators,

I suggest we move the cost/CO2/efficiency/eco debate to a dedicated thread. Folks are making good points that merit discussion.

However, I don't think it should be buried in Jay's project build thread.

Suggest the "Making a Difference" or "General Discussion" sections of the ExPo.

spencyg

12-18-2007, 08:22 PM

X2 on the unintended thread-jacking.

Awesome point Kbellve.

Spence

Streakerfreak

12-19-2007, 12:31 AM

Christian P.

12-19-2007, 03:11 AM

This project also leaves me confused and with some very opposite feelings.

I really do admire the dedication and professionalism. But I am having a hard time accepting anything eco-friendly about it - recycling/modifying an older RV would have been in my opinion much more "green".

But either way, I can't wait to see the final product!

jayshapiro

12-19-2007, 03:48 AM

An amazing amount of work. I hate to be too forward, but I'm sure I'll ask what everybody is thinking...

How much is the budget on this thing? Just the parts and base truck alone have got to be over $150k at this point, and you're paying for labor too! Woudln't it have been easier to buy an Earthroamer?

Hi Spence,

Let's put it this way: It is going to be more than an Earthroamer, but much less than a Unicat.

In the spirit of this being an "Open Source Expedition Vehicle" I will be posting all of our spreadsheets with parts and costs up on our website once it is done.

YES - We could have just bought an Earthroamer and been on the road by now, but we taked to them and there were a few reasons why we decided not to go that route:

1 - Only available on the Ford F-450/550 chassis and therefore not with the CAT engine that we wanted for global serviceability. (not to mention all the problems with the Ford 6L when we started looking at it.

2 - We wanted to have 2 'permanent' beds so that we don't have to drop the dinette EVERY night.

3 - Personally, for what it is, I think the Earthroamer is over priced. I understand the need for them to recover their R&D costs and to make a profit, which is fine, but I'd rather have that money to pay for fuel and a few extra months on the road. It's not that we weren't willing to pay that much (we will spend more than that on this project) but I'm a big believer in value for money and getting what you paid for.

4 - I'm still working and so we weren't in a rush to get out on the road.

The other question that people typically ask me is what I do for a living or how we can afford to build a truck like this. The fact is 8 years ago I started my own small business and have spent a ton of time and effort growing it. We've had a dream for years to take a trip like this once we had a family (my wife and I did a similar trip around Asia in our modified Land Cruiser 90) and so we saved up for a long time, and then sold the business earlier this year. Now we're actually doing it. But every dollar I spend on the truck was hard earned and so I'm being very particular about how/what/where we spend it!

I hope that answers your question...

Cheers,
Jay.

jayshapiro

12-19-2007, 03:57 AM

What transmission are you using?

<<SNIP>>

I wanted to bring up another issue that I think you should be aware of...

ECU's!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Does your motor and trani have them? You might be wise to see if you can replace the pump for a strictly mechanical one! I know this seems like a backward progression, however...The farther away you get from the old USA...The less likely you will finding a mechanic that can help you. On the other hand, I'd bet you can find a GOOD Bosch pump mechanic in every country in the world.

This is very relevent for me at this present time due to the ALLISON HELL I'm going through with Libelula right now.

JS,
I like your ECU idea. I will ask CAT about that when we take the truck in to them. I had an ECU die on my Wrangler and I can't believe what it cost. They had to order one in from the States (we were in Singapore) and it took forever. Good idea.

TRANSMISSION - We have the Allison 6-spd auto. What is wrong with Libby's? PM me...

Thanks,
Jay.

jayshapiro

12-19-2007, 04:01 AM

Great build, it is coming along nicely. You wouldn't be related to a guy named Ari, that has a smoothie shop in Tucson would you? Probably a long shot, you guys have the same last name, and from the Bay Area.

NOPE... Though I like smoothies, so if he offers a "family discount" I'll stop by!

Jay.

Streakerfreak

12-19-2007, 04:06 AM

I know myself and I am sure others would love to see this thing in person when it is done. This will be a very unique and interesting rig.

jayshapiro

12-19-2007, 04:44 AM

Hi All,

First of all let me just say that I love that this project has stirred some interesting conversation and passions on ExPo. If we do nothing else but get people thinking about how Expeditioning can be more environmentally friendly, then already we've accomplished something...

That being said, I thought maybe I should finally chime in on the whole "eco" thing so that the nay-sayers out there at least know where we're coming from.

FACT: A diesel powered big expedition rig is going to add pollution and CO2 to the world.

That is just a fact and I don't think that there is anyone on this site who can deny that. However, we really want to take a round-the-world trip and do it in an ExPo type rig. As we strated getting in to the project though we started feeling guilty about the impact that it was potentially going to have.

At this point it's worth noting that no matter how bad the truck ever actually is, it will never belch out even a fraction of the CO2 that I am responsible for from the almost million miles that I fly on commercial flights travelling for work every year. If you want to call me a hypocrite for anything, it's that.

The point is though, that it's not black or white. "Not flying" or "riding a farting donkey" are not the only ways to help the environment. (though I did love the Thetford donkey idea!) If you just REDUCE the impact that you are having then you are a part of the solution. Yes, you are also still a part of the problem, but at least you're doing LESS HARM than if you didn't think about it at all.

FACT: we are going to build a rig and drive it around the world.

I think that trying to do that with as little impact as possible is a positive thing, rather than not caring about any of the environmental issues and just building it blindly.

What makes this build different, such that we can call it "eco friendly"?

1 - We are trying to use zero-plywood.

The RV industry uses millions of board-feet of plywood every year and that has a big impact on the forests, etc. Instead, we're using a composite material for the sub-floor and sustainable bamboo for all the cabinetry.

2 - We are skinning it with Alucobond

Many of the rigs we looked at use FRP or Gelcoat for the outerskin of the camper. These use some pretty nasty resins that not only smell bad but create some not nice chemicals in their production. We chose the Alucobond composite material which not only looks cool, but it's made from 80% recycled materials.

3 - Sustainable materials inside
The camper floor and countertops are both from LEED certified materials because they are either from recycled materials or sustainable sources. (The counters are made from waste paper laminated into a super hard counter)

4 - Solar not diesel
We're putting almost 2KW of solar panels on the roof, and almost 1,000lbs of batteries under the floor. Yes, we will use more diesel carrying those around, but I think they will save us from running the diesel generator as much as we would have otherwise.

5 - Carbon Offsetting
We are calculating the CO2 that the truck is going to generate in our travels, as well as the manufacturing process, and we're donating enough money to tree planting, solar farms, etc. to offset an equivalent amount. Does that mean that we won't still be belching it out? No - but at least we're going to try and replace what we take out.

So you see, I clearly agree that the MOST "eco-friendly" thing to do would be not to go. But if you agreed with that route, then none of us would be on this forum. Therefore, if you ARE going to go, then the question becomes: "How do we reduce the impact of going?" The Eco-Roamer is a practical exploration of that question.

It's like the "Tread Lightly" campaign that we've all seen off-roading. Sure, it could just say "Don't go" but that would be no fun. So instead, let's try and find a balance and "go" but do it with care.

Here endeth the lecture... I promise more cool pictures of the truck next time!

Jay.

Christian P.

12-19-2007, 05:10 AM

Jay,

Thanks for taking the time to explain your position one more time.

I think it's greatly appreciated.

I like to think that I am helping by recycling/reusing an older Troop Carrier (88) for my overland travels but I would probably have to sell everything I have to offset the carbon emissions from the older 2H...

:)

Streakerfreak

12-19-2007, 05:13 AM

Very nice post. I hope that helps with all the negative comments. I'm glad you took the time out to fully explain it all.

spencyg

12-19-2007, 01:05 PM

Your head and heart are in the right place. Kudos to you for your efforts!

Spence

Kermit

12-19-2007, 01:45 PM

NOPE... Though I like smoothies, so if he offers a "family discount" I'll stop by!

Jay.

:)http://www.xoomjuice.com/:)

teotwaki

12-19-2007, 06:38 PM

............... Ideally, the winch will be a 'last resort' and we will rely on the kindness of fellow ExPo travellers and a tow strap, if we can.......

Given the size of your rig you may have to carry a properly rated tow strap as part of your gear.

Just started reading this thread and saw all the usual slings and arrows arrayed against the project. Maybe start a second thread with your expedition plans roughed out to mollify the less imaginative folks? :)

Jeep

12-19-2007, 07:23 PM

Jay, I am in the planning stages for our expedition rig. Like yours it will be big, to accomodate my family. We share a little history with building and selling a business, I have started 2 more in the last year and will dedicate about 5 years to them at which time we should be finished building our rig so I completely understand why you wouldn't just go out and buy an Earthroamer, I too believe in value for the dollar. If nothing else you have inspired me to look at more environmentally friendly products and components, prior to your post I had never considered any environmental impact of the products I chose to use. I have utilized some of the principles in my business recently. We were dilligent before, we are more dilligent now. So.......your Eco Roamer has already had a positive effect on the environment.

Thank you,
Mark

ujoint

12-19-2007, 07:38 PM

I'm more edgumacated now. ;)

alaskantinbender

12-21-2007, 03:42 PM

Dont let nay sayers and malcontents slow you down.
Keep planning and forging ahead.
Every one in your family will have a great time as it progresses.

:camping:

regards,

Jim

bigford

12-23-2007, 01:03 AM

Nice work on the rig Jay. It's going to be a winner. I saw your rims and just a comment: the military has 2 piece rims that you might want to look at. They are available surplus from several sources. I am running them with 1600 XZLs. They have a big O-ring and even used they don't leak. They are called combat rims. Mine have 20 bolts holding the pieces together, some have 10 bolts depending on model. I do know someone who is running USA6X6 rims like yours on a 5 ton military truck (same bolt pattern) and he is pleased with them so don't be too discouraged.
With these large tires, 1 person can mount/dismount them on rims like these. Good choice.

DaktariEd

12-23-2007, 01:38 AM

Hey, Jay!
Where's your website?
The link in your sig line gives me an "Invalid Host Name" error....

Ed
http://www.geocities.com/daktaried/safari.gif

jayshapiro

12-23-2007, 02:24 PM

Hey, Jay!
Where's your website?
The link in your sig line gives me an "Invalid Host Name" error....

Ed,
We've been having "technical issues" with the server for a few months. I've just changed it over to GoDaddy and it's back up now. Still the old truck though... ;-(

We'll get it updated with the new build as soon as we have time.

Stay tuned!
Jay.

jayshapiro

12-23-2007, 02:32 PM

Hi All,

Thanks for the various suggestions about the Warn Winches.

I absolutely take your points about the capacity of the electric winches vs. something hydraulic or a PTO option.

However, as we've already bought & installed the Warn's I'm going to go with them for the moment and see where we end up with the final weight for the vehicle. If we feel we need to swap them out in the end then we can always do that later.

Thanks for the advice!

Jay.

jayshapiro

12-23-2007, 03:54 PM

To all those who have had some interest in the Eco-Roamer project over the past few months and/or have offered advice... Thank You & Merry Xmas!

May you and your families have a very happy holiday season.
http://www.littlecup.com/Photos/rvchristmas.jpg

Thanks for visiting my thread. Stay tuned next year for more details of the build...

Cheers,
Jay.

Streakerfreak

12-23-2007, 06:52 PM

MERRY CHRISTMAS and a HAPPY NEW YEAR:exclaim:

ckkone

12-24-2007, 02:03 PM

Just caught up with this thread, looking great and I really like your use of alternative materials. Merry X-Mas!

Jeep

01-07-2008, 03:45 AM

Jay, how do you intend to fasten the Alucobond to the camper structure? Are you concerned with linear expansion and how will you address that?

Thanks,
Mark

jayshapiro

01-07-2008, 03:11 PM

Jay, how do you intend to fasten the Alucobond to the camper structure? Are you concerned with linear expansion and how will you address that?

Thanks,
Mark

Mark,
The plan is currently to use aluminum square tube for the camper frame, which should hopefully expand at the same rate as the aluminum sheathing on the Alucobond. By sticking to a single material throughout we're hoping to eliminate some of the expansion challenges.

As for the fastening, the current plan is to use Araldite 420 (https://www.huntsmanservice.com/WebFolder/ui/browse.do?pFileName=/opt/TDS/Huntsman%20Advanced%20Materials/English%20US/Long/Araldite%20420%20A_B%20TDS%20eng.pdf), which is a 2 part aerospace adhesive by Huntsman (http://www.huntsman.com/advanced_materials/index.cfm?PageID=5714). Supposedly it is massively strong, and designed for sticking aluminum skins to aluminum skeletons. (think planes)

The spec's show full strength at up to 70'C.

If once we get it all together we feel that it's still not strong enough, then we may take a page out of the airstream manufacturing model and use rivets on top of the epoxy.

I have found anyone that has used the Alucobond previously for a vehicle, so it's all a bit of an unknown. The theory looks good though...

Jay.

spencyg

01-07-2008, 03:16 PM

Robthebrit

01-07-2008, 03:53 PM

Jay,

My camper box has no 'frame', its just fiber/foam panels but it is held together by Araldite (fiberglass version). Its dones hundreds of thousands and miles an there are no signs of the glue coming apart.

Rob

Jeep

01-07-2008, 04:15 PM

Metal expansion is a function of Delta T (temperature change), material thickness, and material area. Your tube will not expand at the same rate as the sheathing, but frankly with the size of the box you're building, I don't think you'll have enough expansion to really warrant any concern.

I have had aluminum body panels that were 18"x55" fastened to tube frames and they warped like crazy when the sun hit them, had the same issues with HDPE and UHMW plastics, polycarbonate plastic solved the problem in this specific case. Aluminum sided van bodies don't exhibit this problem as bad but the side supports are very thin and move quite easily too. I have bonded aluminum panels using Sikaflex and the distortion is reduced partially due to some of the elastomeric qualities of the bonding agent. I had a black 24' enclosed car trailer, the siding warped so bad when the sun hit it that I couldn't stand it, I sold it and bought a white one, still warps but not as bad and much less noticeable. I know it's cosmetic but still worthy of consideration.

spencyg

01-08-2008, 12:16 PM

I'm surprised the expansion of the sheet aluminum is that extreme over a relatively small span. Case-In-Point, as I said, the sheet will not expand at the same rate as the framework. Good point with the white paint!

Spence

alaskantinbender

01-08-2008, 04:25 PM

I had a black 24' enclosed car trailer, the siding warped so bad when the sun hit it that I couldn't stand it, I sold it and bought a white one, still warps but not as bad and much less noticeable. I know it's cosmetic but still worthy of consideration.

Aircraft with aluminum skins will exibit the same expansion and distortion.
They will pop and oil can in the hot sun.

Regards,

Jim

tjbliley

01-28-2008, 09:25 PM

Anything new in the build progress? Just checking in. It sounds like the chassis is well on its way to being ready.

jayshapiro

02-13-2008, 01:24 AM

Hi All,

So for the long delay between posts, it's been a busy couple of months.

Lots of interesting progress on the truck though...

Tulsa (http://www.tulsatruckmfg.com/) finished with the chassis & 4x4 conversion, they did an amazing job. I cannot recommend those guys highly enough.

Then we drove the truck up to Indiana for some final measurements for the camper shell design. We had been working off of guestimates before, but now that the chassis frame rails are actually where they are meant to be, we were able to lock down the interface points with the camper, and starting to figure out how everythin is going to fit. (or not fit in some cases!)

...Then we drove it up to Northern Michigan to the guys at Alton Truck (http://www.altonco.com/).

Larry, Nick and their crew are:
-stretching out the cab to make more room for the growing family
-adding the air-ride system for the cab
-cutting the pass-through for the camper
-installing some cool custom tanks (more on that below)

Here are some initial pics of their work:

First: Take one F-650 and make it a convertible. OUCH!
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2030/2261220333_718d78162f.jpg

Next: Stretch it all out by 22" and fill the seams with lead to stiffen it all up.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2299/2262012444_7ef9f93495.jpg

Then: Add doors, and you're almost done!
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2351/2262011900_6602a231b2.jpg

Just like the cooking shows on TV!

Pretty cool, eh?

With the additional length in the cab, there is now about 36" between the back of the fuel tanks (75gal on each side) and the rear wall of the cab. Rather than adding more fuel (I reckon 150gal is plenty) we've decided to make some custom tanks behind the fuel cans to hold:
- Passenger side: Fresh Water in a stainless steel tank powder coated
- Driver side: Next Gen 5.5kw generator, plumbed directly to the fuel tank

This should help to free up some room under the camper for 'stuff', and move some of the vibration further away from the living area.

Stay tuned for more developments on the cab & the "final" designs on the camper...

Cheers,
Jay.

stevenmd

02-13-2008, 01:45 AM

Very nice, very cool. I ask only one thing of thee... I live about an hour east of you (SF) in Ripon... when it is finished please, please let me see it in person!:Astrologist: And no, I'm not some stalker! I want to bring my wife so she can see the look in my eyes when I see your finished project.:costumed-smiley-007

jayshapiro

02-16-2008, 04:59 PM

Hi Giuys,

Looking for some advice from others who have designed / lived-with a passthrough from the cab to the camper.

We're currently deciding on how big the 'hole' should be, and I'm starting to worry about thermal / noise leakage. There will be about a 5" gap between the cab and the camper, with a rubber bellows surrounding it. The cab has lots of sound insulation, but I'm concerned that it will be useless if the noise leaks in from the pass-through.

So, if you have a pass-through in your vehicle - How big a problem is this?

How have you solved it? I've seen a foam 'plug' for the hole, but that doesn't seem very elegant.

Also worried about security and the ability to 'close off' the camper from the cab, when shipping the vehicle, which makes me think that smaller is better than bigger on this.

I'm open to any/all suggestions.

Thanks
Jay.

charlieaarons

02-16-2008, 05:48 PM

Look at Unicat's solution to the problem. The hole is about 24X27". They supply a panel made of wall material with rubber gasket. There are two pins at the bottom and two slide locks at the top, so it can only be removed from the camper side (security). Normally when travelling and camping we leave it open (leave panel at home). I would only bring it with me if shipping, or if camping in <20 F. temperatures. It's made out of the same R-13 wall material as the rest of the camper.
It's only easy to crawl into the camper from the cab with the table down; I should have specified a swingaway table but instead I got the one that accordions up and down.
When I tried the camper heating system in subzero temperatures the camper got nice and warm with the panel up, but the heat loss from the cab (single pane glass) is very noticeable with it off, even in ~32 F. temps.
The cutout is designed so that you can't access the locking pins with a hacksaw from the cab, kind of like a step looked at in profile.
Unicat also supplies a sliding panel made of horizontal metal slats that locks with sliding pins. It's more expensive than the solid panel and also probably doesn't insulate as well for cold weather.
Are you sure you want to put a water tank outside the camper (freezing risk)?
Charlie

Christian P.

02-16-2008, 06:33 PM

Hi Giuys,

Looking for some advice from others who have designed / lived-with a passthrough from the cab to the camper.

We're currently deciding on how big the 'hole' should be, and I'm starting to worry about thermal / noise leakage. There will be about a 5" gap between the cab and the camper, with a rubber bellows surrounding it. The cab has lots of sound insulation, but I'm concerned that it will be useless if the noise leaks in from the pass-through.

Thanks
Jay.

Jay,

what about a sliding panel that would slide up and down from the front camper wall? Since you are designing the box from scratch, you could perhaps incorporate that in the design...not sure exactly how...just a thought

anyway, great to see that you are making progress and let me know next time you're around - I am up for another drink in Berkeley...

:)

boblynch

02-17-2008, 12:36 AM

Jay,

I agree that being able to isolate the camper from the cab is important for a number of reasons (security, sound, insulation). However, your initial idea to level out the floors in the cab and camper is also a good one. I'd do both. Make the pass thru something you can use comfortably, or it's not worth the considerable trouble and cost.

Attached are a few pics I found of other rigs using hinged doors, roller doors, and sliding doors. Good luck on whatever you choose.

Bob

15910 15911 15912 15913 15914

Lynn

02-17-2008, 01:10 AM

You're going to have a camper too? With the size of that cab, I thought you were just going to live in it!

Just kidding.

In previous posts you seemed to favor having the cab space serve double-duty to extend the living space of the cabin, right? Have you figured out what that's going to look like?

Reason I ask is that if you are going to be going back and forth between the cab and the cabin on a regular basis, you're going to want a full-sized walk-thru, not a crawl-thru.

I always thought it would be cool to do a pocket door that would slide over the pass-through.

Have you figured out what you are going to put between the cab and cabin (bellows)? One issue you're going to have is road noise coming in through the bellows, so it probably needs to have a sound-deadening design, right?

charlieaarons

02-17-2008, 05:38 AM

Have you figured out what you are going to put between the cab and cabin (bellows)? One issue you're going to have is road noise coming in through the bellows, so it probably needs to have a sound-deadening design, right?

The noise factor isn't that bad, but I have a piece of foam covered with Alcantara held in by velcro that closes the cab hole when driving if desired; easily removed when driving for passengers wanting to use the potty while driving.

Charlie

boblynch

02-18-2008, 04:06 PM

You might also want to talk to ExPo member Carl Noah about his experiences living with the passthru on his Earthroamer. They've spent extended time in the ER in various weather.

Lynn

02-18-2008, 05:06 PM

Also worried about security and the ability to 'close off' the camper from the cab, when shipping the vehicle, which makes me think that smaller is better than bigger on this.

Personally, I'd cut out the back AND top of the cab, like a regular Class C RV, so that you can stand up in the cab and walk thru to the cabin. Either the entire bed or a section of it would have to lift up when not in use to allow standing height in the center of the cab.

Here's a picture 'lifted' from Host Motorcoaches (http://www.hostcampers.com/):

http://www.hostcampers.com/graphics/coaches/270/bed_lifted.jpg

To close it off for security, have sliding doors at the back of the cab, that will lock to each other and to the the lifting section.

boblynch

02-18-2008, 05:14 PM

Lynn

02-18-2008, 06:33 PM

Lynn, does this type of setup allow for any frame flex? Granted with all the mods Jay is doing there might be very little. However, I would think the pass thru design would want to allow for some just in case.

Since the Host RVs aren't designed for off road (even though 4x4), I doubt if they worry too much about flex.

However, I beleive that with the frame stiffening on Jay's rig, and a soft suspension, there's going to be very little flex, and one should be able to design a system that would work.

I posted this because I am dreaming of having a rig somewhat similar to his, and also want to have the cab be an extension of the living space, as he has mentioned. To actually have it a usable extension, then I think the pass-thru has to be large enough to walk through, preferably without ducking and crawling.

Kind of the opposite end of the spectrum from the 'Mogs with the 'emergency wiggle thru' design.

I have two kids, and I think Jay does also, so another idea I've been pondering would eliminate the lift-up bed. I'm thinking of just having a bunk bed on each side (over the cab), leaving the isle full standing height. Of course, with small kids, a safety net may be needed around the bunks. Then the wife and I would sleep on a bed in the camper part.

On my dream rig, I want the front seats to swivel to face the rear seats, then have a small table on each side, so that the riding area doubles as the dinette.

I've also dreamed about having a drop-down LCD TV at the windshield, so that the cab area also serves as a 'home' theater. ;)

Lynn

02-18-2008, 07:06 PM

On reviewing the thread, I see that you are already planning on two bunks in the over-cab section.

Jay, I'm curious. You said that you had to raise the cab in order to clear the new front diff. How much did you have to raise it? From that experience, do you think it would be possible to mount both the camper AND the cab on a subframe (either torque-free or suave-esque), then make the cab-to-camper attachment rigid? Does that make sense? Make the cab and camper all one rigid unit, and them mount the entire unit on a 4-point or something?

Also, I imagine that raising the cab helped to 'flatten out the floor' between the cab and camper, right?

Octamog

02-19-2008, 01:04 AM

Personally, I'd cut out the back AND top of the cab, like a regular Class C RV, so that you can stand up in the cab and walk thru to the cabin. Either the entire bed or a section of it would have to lift up when not in use to allow standing height in the center of the cab.

Here's a picture 'lifted' from Host Motorcoaches (http://www.hostcampers.com/):

http://www.hostcampers.com/graphics/coaches/270/bed_lifted.jpg

To close it off for security, have sliding doors at the back of the cab, that will lock to each other and to the the lifting section.

...Or use a bed lift like this (http://www.happijac.com/prod-lifts/lift-ov.php) to lift the bed completely up out of the way...

Christian P.

02-19-2008, 01:54 AM

...Or use a bed lift like this (http://www.happijac.com/prod-lifts/lift-ov.php) to lift the bed completely up out of the way...

Octamog!

great to see you back...

No idea how such a system can cost? It could be useful for another project I have in mind...

Octamog

02-19-2008, 02:07 AM

Octamog!

great to see you back...

No idea how such a system can cost? It could be useful for another project I have in mind...

Hey Christian, :wavey:

I haven't checked the price yet... care to do some leg work?

I saw one on a neighbor's RV -- they are really happy with it.

Mark

boblynch

02-19-2008, 02:21 AM

On my dream rig, I want the front seats to swivel to face the rear seats, then have a small table on each side, so that the riding area doubles as the dinette.

I've also dreamed about having a drop-down LCD TV at the windshield, so that the cab area also serves as a 'home' theater. ;)

Lynn I like both of these ideas. However, the more I think about temperature control the more all the glass in the crew cab makes me wonder. Maybe some sort of insulated covers could be adapted for each window and the windshield. Otherwise isolating the cab from the camper via a large door seems like the way to go for a 4-season rig.

egn

02-19-2008, 05:56 AM

Lynn I like both of these ideas. However, the more I think about temperature control the more all the glass in the crew cab makes me wonder. Maybe some sort of insulated covers could be adapted for each window and the windshield. Otherwise isolating the cab from the camper via a large door seems like the way to go for a 4-season rig.

I agree with this. Our previous motorhome was an integrated one, similar to your class A, just smaller. It has a pulldown bed just in front of the front window. If it was colder outside there was always a massive amount of condensated water at the non-isolated front sceen, even there were isolated scrolling blinds in front.

This was the reason why I use now highly isolated true glas windows build from two hard glas panes. It has very low heat transmission and is very secure.

So I would really go for strict separation if you indent to go to colder climates for a longer time. If it is only short time you can but some isolation sheets outside on the screen. But adding an removing them is not always fun, especially it has snowed and all is frozen.

Lynn

02-19-2008, 02:57 PM

Good points on the heat loss. I guess I'm a warm weather weeny.

I should have thought about that, though. I lived in a camp trailer in Colorado for a year, and even in that 'temperate' climate, storm windows made a huge difference.

Since I don't plan to do Siberia, maybe a well-insulated pass-thru door would still be sufficient for me, though. The idea was to move the dinette to the cab in order to have a permanent bed in the back. Maybe that rear bed should still be convertable to a dinette, so that in extreme weather the cab could be left sealed off.

This was the reason why I use now highly isolated true glas windows build from two hard glas panes. It has very low heat transmission and is very secure.

Emil, are you just talking about the cabin (camper) windows, or do you have double-pane windows in the cab, as well?

I assume that you just have them in the cabin, but since you have all flat glass in the cab, maybe it's possible to get double-pane windows there, as well?

Lynn

jayshapiro

02-20-2008, 01:38 AM

Hi Guys,

Thanks for all the great suggestions and pics. Great input as always...

A few comments in response to some of your points:

We are planning on the cab being a part of the 'living area' of the camper, so would much prefer a 'walk-through' than a 'wiggle-through' type hole. The challenge comes in how big is too-big.

The cab itself is going to floating on an air-ride set-up (hinged at the front) so it is going to float & bounce a fair bit. Then the camper itself is on a floating subframe (though not as much motion given the stiffened chassis) So, pinning the two units together will not work. We have planned on a rubber bellows between the two, forming a short 'tunnel'. This pretty much eliminates the possibility of cutting the roof (as in the Host Class C pictures)

To "help" with the thermal leakage on the windshield and side windows, I had a great set of insulated curtains made from EasyCurtain (http://www.easycurtain.net/). The fit all around the cab at night, and will hopefully help a little. (very friendly people, btw)

My current plan had been for the bathroom door (which is just inside the camper at the front wall) to lock in the 'open' position - essentially blocking the passthrough hole and forming a solid barrier to entrance. We need to work out the dimensions of the hole to see if the door can actually do that.

I like some of the suggestions of a 'plug' that fits into the hole from the cab, but it feels like it would be a bit of a pain to take in/out and carry around if you want to go back into the camper a few times a day. In that way a pocket door or something is appealing, but engineering that within the cab (end of the tunnel) might be hard.

I was even considering a simple solution like a couple of moving blankets hung and velcro'd on the inside of the passthrough to form a sound/thermal barrier that can be tied aside when we're stationary.

We're going to work on this over the next couple of days and hopefully come up with something that works really well.

Thanks all for your help. Some really great ideas.

Cheers,
Jay.

jayshapiro

02-20-2008, 01:48 AM

Octamog!

great to see you back...

No idea how such a bed lift system can cost? It could be useful for another project I have in mind...

Mark / Christian,

We are using that exact system in our camper. We are 'lifting' a bed to the roof above the dinette. This allows us to leave the bed made up and just lower it down at night and get it.

At the same time the dinette itself can lower down into a bed, so we can essentially have bunk beds for when we have 'visitors'

The Happijac lift can 'lock' at any height allowing you to do this.

I don't have a price from them yet, though I've been chasing for it. I'll post it here as soon as I have it.

Cheers,
Jay.

tjbliley

02-20-2008, 02:43 AM

Jay,
I have been riding around in ambulances for the last 20 years or so and I can tell you there are about a few hundred ways to work the connection from the cab to the camper. The door which does double duty is ok, but it will not fit either opening the way it should because of the compromise. The sliding/Pcoket door can work if you have a tracking system or the hinge setup which would allow the door to move forward and back after sliding to sit in the opening. You also will want to put a piece of diamond plate over the rubber bellows mounted to the cab and sitting on the floor of the camper to transition from the cab. This will allow easier traffic movement through the opening. Research in the ambulance industry a little bit and you may find some unique ideas. You could just stop at a few fire houses as you travel around and ask them to see the rigs for more ideas. I hope that helps in the quest for answers to your quandry. I have walked and crawled through just about every type there is and there are some out there that will meet your needs you just need to find the hardware and copy a design.

Jerry

egn

02-20-2008, 04:20 AM

Emil, are you just talking about the cabin (camper) windows, or do you have double-pane windows in the cab, as well?

I assume that you just have them in the cabin, but since you have all flat glass in the cab, maybe it's possible to get double-pane windows there, as well?

I have this windows only in the cabin. In the cab they wouldn't be of much use because this is no living space.

Lynn

02-20-2008, 02:39 PM

I have this windows only in the cabin. In the cab they wouldn't be of much use because this is no living space.

I just thought that when you are running down the road, double-paned windows would help insulate the cab.

I assume that since your engine is air-cooled, the cab heater is diesel? Or electric? Either way, running the heater less would save fuel and increase your range, right? But maybe the windows are a small factor over all.

jayshapiro

03-28-2008, 03:59 PM

Hi Gang,

I know it has been ages since we updated the progress of the project, sorry!

Things are going well though and have been steadily moving along. We've pretty much been working on three main areas:

Procurement
Floorplan finalization
Cab customisation

1) Procurement:

I originally had a guy helping me on procuring all the thousands of various bits for the project. Unfortunately he worked for the company that I was using to build the camper "Startracks (http://www.xplorermotorhome.com/)" in Elkhart, In.

I had spent a couple of months researching the various custom builders and talking to various people about options. We felt that "bob" at Startracks seemed to have some good experience and some great people, so in the end we went with them.

...then he stopped paying their salaries. Then I visited his shop in In, and realized that it was an empty warehouse with no ongoing projects, and no crew. I quickly became 'less comfortable' and after some very brief sould searching decided to walk away and start again.

Luckily I had much of the documentation with me, but without my parts guy, I've spent much of the past 2 months piecing together all the components. In the end though I'm really glad this happened, because I have refined a lot of our parts decisions, I have an intimate knowledge of each component, and we're saving a ton of money too...

I'll write a dedicated post someday about just the various parts, and I think we might post the whole parts spreadsheet in the interest of the "open source" mentality that we're trying to follow.

2) Floorplan Finalization:

I'm really happy with how the designs are coming along. Every inch of space has been optimized now, and I think it is going to be really bright and liveable as well.

I freely admit that we have been 'inspired' by several fantastic expedition vehicles that we've seen such as:

rear porch - Rob Gray's Wort
Drop bed - David Hammond's RTW mercedes
Induction Stove - Thomas @ Unicat
Bed Tend - Host/Lance campers
Generator - Doug Hackney

Here is what it is looking like so far:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2190/2369099830_f46d0f2954_o.jpg

We are 'over documenting' it with the 3D CAD files, because I really hope that this will be of use to someone else someday as we are increasingly thinking of the EcoRoamer as a prototype for a sustainable open-source RTW expedition vehicle and not just a one-off.

3) Cab Customization:

While all that has been going on, the amazing guys up at Alton Truck (http://www.altonco.com) in Michigan have been hard at work on the cab. (I highly recommend Larry and Nick there, they have been amazingly helpful)

In my earlier postings I showed the extended-cab doors going on. Now in addition to that we have:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2323/2369099602_6afff3a694.jpg
a passthrough, for accessing the camper. Will be surrounded by a 5-15" rubber bellows.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3021/2308054410_47a22150a5.jpg
a flat floor in the cab. I always get scared when you put a sawzall and my truck in the same picture!

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3014/2369098346_1a7413e61e.jpg
air-ride mounted under the cab, to smoooooth things out a little.

The interior is due to go back in again in the next two weeks.

The guys are also building a custom box for the next-gen 8.5kw generator on the driver's side, and an auxilary fresh-water tank with a heater coil on the passenger side. (don't worry, the rest of the plumbing and tanks will be within the cell, but we had an empty space and so are using it for extra capacity when not in freezing locales.)

That's all for now. I'll send more updates as the truck takes shape in the next couple of weeks. We're hoping to start cutting metal on the camper starting April 15th so stay tuned!

Jay.

Redline

03-29-2008, 04:26 AM

Nice :-)

Carlyle

03-31-2008, 02:01 PM

Sounds like you've had some "interesting" experiences in Elkhart. Keep us posted on the build as it sounds like it's going to be awesome when complete.

viatierra

05-08-2008, 01:46 AM

Any updates to share?
I dig following along with your progress...

RHINO

05-08-2008, 03:41 AM

something i always thought about for a build to maximize space was a slide out rear section with a "murphy" style bed,,,, in that i mean the bed would mount upright against the rear wall and fold down as the rear was slid out creating a bedroom w/o encroaching on the rest of the floorplan.

j_nigrelli

05-11-2008, 12:41 AM

......
Owning & driving a particular vehicle doesn't make you green or eco-conscious. Attitude, state of mind and behavior make you eco-friendly. Just the fact that Shapiro has this in mind while building his truck makes him miles ahead of most 4wd owners (and most Hybrid owners), who talk the talk but don't walk the walk.

could you please elaborate on this?

Bella PSD

05-11-2008, 02:44 AM

I think I know what you mean. I was over at a friend’s house the other day. He drives one of those Toyota something hybrids?? Always saying to me "how many gallons of gas to the mile do you get", and then followed by an annoying smirk! I always respond “zero gallons of gas, it’s a diesel”!

Well, the other day when I was over at their house for a party he said that he had to pay the city if he recycled so just pitch all those plastics and beer bottles!!! I was shocked!

Louie

Ron B

05-13-2008, 07:39 AM

could you please elaborate on this?

I work on tv shows where the actors/directors/producers are "earth conscious" and drive prius (prii?). Yet they live in a 10,000 sq ft home and fly in private jets for weekend excursions to their 2nd homes in the mountains or NYC etc...

I think your truck would have to run for many years straight to equal an LA to NY flight.

rb

Lynn

06-04-2008, 02:07 PM

<Insert here the sound of fingers drumming on the table>

WELL??

jayshapiro

06-07-2008, 10:51 AM

Hi All,

Many, many apologies for keeping you in the dark over the past couple of months. It has been a crazy busy time with work and travel, and so I haven't had a chance to update you on the progress. However, there has been a LOT of progress and it's VERY exciting.

There is a lot to update, and many different components, so I'm going to break it up into a few different posts, so that it will be easier to Reply-To, since I know there will likely be questions / objections to some of them! :p

Here's the first though...

When we last left the story, the truck was up at Alton Truck Co. (http://www.altonco.com) in Pigeon, MI. The guys there had a hundred and one things to do, and did a fantastic job. I can't recommend those guys enough, they really did a great job.

In my last posting, they had cut my truck in half, and then added in the new doors at the back. The next step was to add lead to the structure to keep it from cracking apart. This adds a fair bit of weight, but then remember that it's a 10,000lb truck to start with!

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2055/2541093021_5f4c97ac3b.jpg
Lead on the roof.

At the end of the day, they put it all back together, extended the steps and voila, it looks like this!

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2188/2541060167_4b1d4bc81c.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2161/2541883802_a429947e36.jpg

With the extra room that we created in the cab now, we were able to custom design / build a pair of jump seats on the rear wall. These will live in the 'up' position most of the time, but when we have friends/grandparents come along then we can move the kids to the jump seats. We welded in a set of Isofix points for the car seats in both the rear two captains chairs and the jump seats:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2300/2541080323_6ce497eaa4.jpg

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2018/2541079261_546e647b10.jpg

The marking that you see on the wall on the top is where the headrest latches in to the wall. We have paneled that top part of the wall on both sides with a whiteboard that we bought from Staples and cut to fit. All four of the main seats now swivel 180' so the rear two can turn around to face the back wall (with the white boards) and work on their built in desks, with laptops plugged in to the inverter outlets wired on the rear wall. This will give us an 'extra room' in the evenings once the kids are asleep, to have a small 'office' for blogging / emailing / visa-prep / etc.

The jump seats are much more comfortable now, with cushions on them! ;)

All surfaces in the cab were covered with dyna-matt type sound proofing, and all the doors / crevices had foam insulation filled in before the panels were reassembled.

Then the entire cab was taken off its mounts, hinged on pins at the front and mounted on air-bags at the rear to soften the ride. Remember that the front suspension is still (very firm) leaf springs. I can attest to the fact that it rode like a cement truck when I bought the truck a year ago, but now with the new airbags (which are adjustable for 'softness') it actually rides like a standard SUV now. It's fantastic, and I'm convinced that we don't need air-ride seats or suspension.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3022/2541063111_07488eb0da.jpg

On the interior of the cab we've made all kinds of revisions such as:

Passenger Airbag compartment (empty) - added a sleeve treated with bedliner and a bungy cargo net to create a maps & snacks cubby
Center Console to hold all light switches, CB & VHF radios, accessories, etc. (pictures of this in a future post)
Gooseneck Maplights on the roof behind each seat
Hardwired inverter off the truck battery (separate to camper) with 12v & 120v outlets wired throughout the cab.
In-dash PC system (detailed in a very near future post)

That's it for this posting, more details in the next few posts!

Cheers,
Jay.

jayshapiro

06-07-2008, 11:27 AM

Hi Again,

Ever since we started this project there has been a lot of discussion / debate around the pass-through from the cab to the camper.

We knew we wanted to have a way to go between them, but the question was always "how big?"

We could go the Class-C style of a huge opening, which makes the cab feel like a part of the living space.

Like this:
http://www.xplorermotorhome.com/xcursionford265_images/xcursionford26_interior06.jpg

We liked this, but that meant that we would have to lock the two sub-assemblies together, and we knew we wanted them to float free of each other. Also, given that we were already slicing the cab, we wanted to retain as much of the structural rigidity as possible.

The other end of the spectrum is a 'crawl-through' like you find on the Unicats.

Like this:
http://www.unicatamericas.com/images/photos/international/f003-01.jpg

This is good for keeping the noise / thermal leakage down, but is a real pain for anyone bigger than a kid to go back and forth through a dozen times a day.

So in the end we decided on a compromise, something big enough to walk through, but still with the flexibility of a bellows tunnel.

Start with a standard pickup rear window:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2283/2115989710_653e2271a1.jpg

Cut a big hole in it:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3043/2308055032_f17405985c.jpg

Then panel up the sides, and create a flat surface for mounting the bellows:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3055/2541063609_207422b52e.jpg

In the end it is 26" wide and almost the full height of the cab. We left the top and bottom structures in place to retain the strength.

The bellows we chose are a 5" - 15" accordian seal from Uni-Grip (http://www.uni-grip.com/accordion.html).

We've designed the camper such that the bathroom door serves a dual purpose. In the "open" position it covers the pss-through flush and can be padlocked from the inside in order to seal off access to the camper when we are shipping the vehicle, etc.

Now all we have to do is just build the camper behind it! - the "easy" part! ;-)

Jay.

tjbliley

06-07-2008, 11:53 AM

Jay, I was just looking at your access to the rear area post and thought "Has he looked at any Ambulances for the door/passthrough options". I have been in and out of Ambulances for the last 24 years and I have seen just about every conceivable option for the doors and closures. You may want to look to them for ideas.

jayshapiro

06-07-2008, 02:22 PM

Just because you're environmentally friendly, doesn't mean you have to be boring...

One of the other things we did over the past couple of months was to design and configure the audio/video system for the vehicle. We're going to be spending a LOT of time in this truck, so we wanted to make sure that we had a way of taking all our tunes, and our toons with us. (two small kids!)

I started by thinking about where we would want to listen / watch our content, and then worked backwards from there. I knew we didn't want to carry around hundreds of CD's / DVD's with us, so a Hard-Drive media vault became obvious. Then, once we had that central storage concept, the question started to be about where should that be and how do we interconnect everything.

In the end, we came up with a pretty cool solution. Although we rarely talk electronics on ExPo, I thought it would be worth detailing for those interested.

We started with an InFill T3 (http://infill.co.kr/english/product/t3_feature.asp) in-dash PC. This takes the place of 2 DIN spots in the dash (same as my factory Ford radio) but manages to squeeze in a Windows XP PC, with a 40GB shock mounted hard drive and DVD drive. They are made in Korea and look like this:

http://www.mp3car.com/vbulletin/attachments/general-hardware-discussion/42107d1178616261-infill-station-img_5550.jpg

Connected to this is a 1 Terrabyte (Yippee!) Western Digital USB Hard Drive mounted in foam in the centre console. I can't believe how cheap these are now. I got mine at Best Buy for about $230. We're in the process of ripping all our DVD's and MP3's to the drive. We'll never fill it...

The PC also has built in WiFi and we'll hook up my Cingular unlimited Data GSM card, and just get pre-paid SIM's as we travel around.

Then I found this amazing deal on HUGE 10.5" headrest monitors, with built in DVD/SD-card players from "GoodDeals18.com" (http://www.gooddeals18.com/product/HAV1040%2F%23Y02) - I was nervous ordering them as I'd never heard of the shop before, but they arrived exactly as promised and they're amazing. An F-650 is probably the only truck they wouldn't look huge in though!

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2063/2541061195_d71fae314e.jpg

The system is prewired to take inputs from our laptop on the Jotto Desk (http://www.jottodesk.com/Comersus/store/comersus_viewItem.asp?idProduct=1009&status=-1)in the passenger seat if we want to play music from there too...

BUT... we're going to be spending most of our evenings back in the camper, so we also pre-wired the system to feed audio/video signals back to the LCD TV in the camper, and allow for a possible second one in the outdoor kitchen cabinet at some point in the future if we want to. These can be controlled by the RF Wireless keyboard and mouse from inside the camper.

The whole system then looks like this:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3282/2557736299_b3c20a483a.jpg

I'm a bit of a geek still at heart, so designing this part of the truck has been great fun. It's a lot of technology in an off-road rig, and we'll see how well it all holds up to the dust & vibrations on the trip - but I think it should be ok.

It is certainly a lot of complexity / money to invest in music / TV / Connectivity, but I justify by remembering that we're going to be spending 2 years in this thing with kids. We're certainly going to appreciate nature and sit around the campfire, etc, etc, but at some point the family is going to also want to cuddle up in front of a good movie, etc.

Any suggestions or feedback are always welcome. I have my PPT of the schematic and part numbers available if anybody wants. I'll let you know how it all works once we actually start travelling.

Lastly, I'd just like to thank the guys at Car Toys (http://www.cartoystulsa.com/) in Tulsa, OK. They definitely know their stuff and were a big help in building / installing the system really professionally.

Cheers,
Jay.

jayshapiro

06-08-2008, 03:31 PM

Hi Again,

One of the more hotly contested topics on this thread (and ExPo in general it seems) is how to mount the camper body to the chassis. You want to ensure structural integrity (i.e. - it should come flying off with the wind resistance on the highway), but at the same time have enough 'give' built in to the mounting to allow the chassis to flex without cracking the camper box and everything within it.

Not an easy task.

I asked advice on this topic in this thread (see page 5 (http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8936&page=5)) and got some great suggestions. Various people recommended:

Diamond shape - 4 point - a la Unicat & Robthebrit
Three Point - Pivot in front - a la Earthroamer
Three Point - Pivot in rear - a la Doug Hackney and Rob Gray
Suspension Air Bags to float the whole thing - nice idea, never seen it done
EZ-Ride (http://www.e-zridecorp.com/)rubber suspension - Mounted upside down - Still like this but unproven
Good old fashioned U-Bolts to the frame

One of the best suggestions though, came from Joaquim Suave who said:

Call me daft...

But wouldn't it be wise to get your body mods finished & 4x4 driveline in, then....

Test just how far your frame flexes, then...

Design the box mounting system???

That way you will be able to accurately determine:

* The sweep of the cab-over part of the box, over the cab.
* The flexable "pass-through" connection between cab & box
* The most cost effective mounting system THAT WEIGHS THE LEAST.

I wonder how many "expedition" vehicles there are out there with elaborate mounting systems....Just so that the owner can say "NO! THIS IS NOT AN RV! SEE! I'VE GOT A 3 POINT MOUNTED BOX!"

I'd sure hate to see you throw good money after bad.

...and at the end of the day, I think he was right. (congrats JS you win the prize - a free bottle of Tequila) The F-650 chassis is already pretty rigid, much more so than a Mog I believe. The we went and 'sleeved' the frame with another L-bracket of serious steel, which has made it even stiffer. Like this:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2132/2094914184_41b7b32a2b.jpg

So, at the end of the day - when I lifted up the truck 3ft in the air using a chain block attached to just one rear frame rail, the deflection between the two rails was only 1.75" at the end, and .75" at the front. Not a whole lot of flex. Admitedly, that's without a camper on the rear, but still - pretty stiff.

I worked it through a dozen times with our engineer Jeff Kuhl (who is fantastic, btw!) and we decided on a wholly unorthodox mount, but I think it could really work.

It looks like this:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3278/2561407230_63c64e01bb.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3280/2560585563_20ecd4e280.jpg

We custom built tabs on the side of each frame rail. Then, attached to these tabs a long piece of bar aluminum, using Ford Upfitter standard rubber pucks both above and below the tabs to allow the bolts/bar some flex by compressing the rubber in either direction.

Then, we put another set of pucks, between the first row, and used these to space to a second aluminum bar that will fasten on the camper body itself. By spacing the pucks like this, the bars act like a leaf spring and have the ability to bow slightly under jounce giving additional play.

This is Jeff's design, based on some work he used to do at Grumman. I've never seen it before, but the theory seems good and I think it could really work.

There is very little fore/aft movement (compared to the diamond) but then the frame is very stiff in that direction, so I'm less concerned.

What I like the most about this design is that it's very simple & easy to engineer. We're going to build the camper box frame separately and then attach and test it. If we're not happy with how this mount performs, we can easily take it off and all we've really lost is about 3 days in the shop. Then we can start exploring substantially more complex mounts if we have to.

The total height raised from the frame rails to the camper box (as compared to just sitting it on top of the chassis) is less than 4", so C.O.G. shouldn't be too badly affected.

Anyhow, that's our solution. As always I'm open to your suggestions/questions/feedback on it.

Cheers,
Jay.

jayshapiro

06-08-2008, 03:49 PM

Hi Again,

In my past few posts, I've included lots of updates on all the elements that are going really well. I thought I might as well share a recent but very embarassing mistake in the hope that it will help some others down the road...

"ALWAYS CHECK THE OBVIOUS"

One of the design specifications for the vehicle was to be at most 96" at it's widest point, so that we could load it onto a shipping pallet and then on to a container ship.

Of course there are RoRo ships throughout the world, but the schedules are more sporadic, the locations less remote, and any shipping nightmare stories I've read always seem to revolve around RoRo's. (theft, loading damage, etc)

So Jeff and I have been struggling to keep everything within the 96". This affects the floorplan, the walls, the awning, etc. You even start thinking about the rain gutters and bar locks, looking for more flush options in order to retain every inch of inside living space.

Then Jeff calls me last week... "You do realize that those Meritor axles you put on the front are 102" wide right!?" ...DOH!

Even the (grudgingly removable) steps on the fuel tanks come out to a full 105"

We were done, before we'd even started... There was no way we were going to make the 96" limit due to a silly oversight on my part on one of the hundreds of components / decisions. But of course it is too late to change that now.

So, now we're back to the drawing board and stretching the camper out to 102". I'm sure the extra few inches inside will help in a number of areas, but I sure do feel silly.

Anybody have any recommendations for a good RoRo line?

Jay.

haven

06-08-2008, 06:02 PM

Here's a reminder of what the die-spring-and-ubolt setup Joaquin Suave is talking about looks like

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z241/expeditioncampers/suavespring.jpg

Is it true that in an off-camber situation like this:

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z241/expeditioncampers/twist-1.jpg

Jay's truck would have either the left front or right rear wheel off the ground
because the truck chassis is now so stiff that it doesn't twist?

Chip Haven

Lynn

06-08-2008, 06:43 PM

Is it true that in an off-camber situation like this:

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z241/expeditioncampers/twist-1.jpg

Jay's truck would have either the left front or right rear wheel off the ground
because the truck chassis is now so stiff that it doesn't twist?

Chip Haven

Unless Jay's suspension is more compliant than Rob's?

jayshapiro

06-11-2008, 03:04 PM

Thanks as always for your feedback, this time on the body mount.

A couple of comments:

- We have built it using 6061 Aluminum.

- In my pictures you might be able to make out that under the frame rail tabs there are much thicker / softer rubber pucks with thick washers below, to do the equivalent of JS's springs. Now they don't have JS's recommended 3" of travel, far from it, but we'll try it out and I'm open to replacing those (cheap and easy) if it turns out they don't give enough play.

- I'm hoping that with my air-bag suspension, and each (rear) wheel having an independent leveller valve - that I should have significantly better wheel articulation that Rob Gray does with his 6x6 with leaf suspension. This should prevent the "wheel hanging up in the air" for most situations, but also reduce the amount of twist that gets absorbed in the frame (and camper) as opposed to the suspension.

- The top rail that you see in the picture will be welded directly to the camper cross-members. The bolts through the pucks joining the two rails together will come from the bottom, so that theoretically with a couple of wrenches (and a couple of forklifts), and the camper should lift right off the chassis.

Ultimately though, we're going into this a little blind and are going to test the heck out of it first. We're building the floor this week, will attach it to the body mounts and strap down some serious weight onto it. Then we're going to go drive it around a local rock quarry and see how it all flexes. Then we'll know if we need to go back to the drawing board or move on...

I'll definitely let you know!

Cheers,
Jay.

Lynn

06-11-2008, 03:49 PM

Jay,

I really appreciate this thread. Your design philosophy is very similar to my own arm chair design philosophy, so I anxiously await news (and photos) of your tests.

jayshapiro

06-12-2008, 03:27 PM

Just had to share this with all of you...

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3107/2572495161_e79c73d28b.jpg

After 3 years, I finally actually have a floor! It's so beautiful to see it not on a CAD file...

There's obviously a ton of work still to be done, but it is amazingly exciting to see it actually starting to take shape!

Here's another view:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3010/2572494865_804479bbb4.jpg

Thanks to all whose opinions and advice have helped us get to this 'ground breaking' moment.

Cheers,
Jay.

Lynn

06-12-2008, 03:40 PM

Prrreeeettttty!

I say you take the axle off of a camp trailer, throw it up there with some ratchet straps, and go camping to celebrate the occasion. Also to road test the cab section.

Shoot, you could probably haul my house on there. ;)

Carlyle

06-13-2008, 02:18 PM

Wow, what a beast! My truck and camper look like Minny Me in comparison.

boblynch

06-13-2008, 02:41 PM

jayshapiro

06-13-2008, 05:27 PM

Jay congratulations on the big milestone.

What are the dimensions of the floor? What (if anything) will be mounted underneath the floor? What are the larger gaps aft of the rear tires for?
Bob

Hi again,

The main camper body will be 17 ft long. Then at the rear there is an additional 18" of "vestibule" where we will store our spare tire, bikes, etc. The vestibule is closed in with a toy-hauler style ramp door that lowers down 90 degrees, and then has a Fiamma awning and privacy room that can enclose it in to make a separate kids play room. There is a door leading into the camper from there.

So in total it is 18.5' - When it was at 17ft we were aiming for about 33 degress departure angle. With the new 18" on the back, we're slightly below 30 degrees. However, given the size of the truck, I suspect we'll hit my limit far before we hit the truck's limit. (I have a Jeep Wrangler for my offroad thrills, I don't need to drive my house through the Moab trails)

The gap behind the axle is where the cutout for the 2 steps down are going to be. The guys felt it was better to build it as a single unit, and then chop those out, rather than build it with the notch in the first place.

The finished unit will look something like this:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3187/2575211721_595102b4d8.jpg

Stay tuned for results of the stress test...

Cheers,
Jay.

egn

06-15-2008, 09:13 AM

- We have built it using 6061 Aluminum.

I hope the thickness of the material is large enough to cover the longterm stress on this structure. Al 6061 has a strength that is only half of standard steel.

jayshapiro

06-18-2008, 02:48 PM

I hope the thickness of the material is large enough to cover the longterm stress on this structure. Al 6061 has a strength that is only half of standard steel.

Thanks,

I think we should be pretty good. The floor crossmembers are made from 3/16" c-Channels, and the external frame is made from 3/8" wall 2"x3" Tubes. Of course the entire structure will act as a truss as well, reinforcing the overall strength, but all you can see is the floor so far.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2171/2572494177_00422e0ff6.jpg

btw, We're planning on doing the mount stress tests in the next couple of days...

Cheers,
Jay.

Lynn

06-18-2008, 03:19 PM

btw, We're planning on doing the mount stress tests in the next couple of days...

Pictures! Lots of Pictures! I'm tired of seeing those same old pix when we talk about tensional frame flex! :) I think there are only three: the one of Rob Gray's, one on Darrin Fink's page, and one on Lonno Offroad Yachts' site. :) :)

I've always suspected that it might be better to soften the suspension and stiffen the frame, rather that have the frame act as a part of the suspension (but I'm willing to admit that most of the appeal is that it makes the design of a pass-through a lot more feasible). I'm anxiously waiting for you to prove me right.

Also, I'm curious if your pop-up section is going to be soft-sided, hard-sided, or a combination? But I'm kind of getting ahead of things, aren't I?

haven

06-18-2008, 06:11 PM

Lynn, here's one of my favorite photos that illustrates chassis flex.

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z241/expeditioncampers/actionmobil1.jpg

This is an Action Mobil design with 3 point torque-free mount for the camper. The camper stays parallel with the rear axle, while the cab and front axle point in a very different direction. Without the torque-free mount, the camper would be badly twisted.

I understand your point about keeping the truck chassis rigid, and designing the suspension to flex as needed to keep the wheels in contact with the terrain. I'm not sure it's realistic to make the chassis rigid enough in a large vehicle. Jay's test results will help us see how rigid his chassis has become after its extensive bracing.

Chip Haven

boblynch

07-24-2008, 05:56 PM

Jay, how did your stress test go?

toyrunner95

07-25-2008, 06:29 AM

u got a pic of the camper? or how far its come? on or off the truck?

97 zj steve

07-30-2008, 01:26 PM

took a quick look through the pages...its looking amazing...cant wait to c more :lurk:

CapelConcepts

08-07-2008, 07:32 AM

Well I've lurked around this forum for quite a while now and I have to admit this is the thread that got me hooked! I can't wait to see how it turns out!

CapelConcepts

08-07-2008, 04:50 PM

What exactly is Capel Concepts?

Do you have a shop here SLO county?

Yes, I do have shop in SLO County. PM Sent

jayshapiro

08-10-2008, 03:05 AM

Hi All,
Many apologies that the update on the flex test is so 'overdue' - it has been a crazy couple of months, but definitely an educational period!

Thanks to everyone who has sent words of encouragement and support for our project. I am really delighted with how it is going, and I owe so much of that to what I've learned on ExPo. "They" said it was impossible for a 'privateer' to build a competent large-scale expedition vehicle in North America, but we've had a blast doing it.

Of course there have been some hiccups along the way, but that's all a part of the 'fun'. The flex test has certainly been a part of that. And so....

In a series of posts a long, long time ago we were debating whether or not the F-650 chassis would flex at all, especially given how much we reinforced the frame.

Just as a brief reminder, or for those not following the story -- we reinforced the entire frame with very long, very heavy, Steel L-Channels:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2132/2094914184_41b7b32a2b.jpg

Well, to those of you who 'told me so' - please feel free to post replies with "I told you so" because it certainly does flex... a lot!
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2206/2650743561_1e1dfe59e3.jpg

Pretty scary, eh!?

As you can see, with just the floor and our double puck mounts, the whole thing got twisted out of shape.

I was pretty much ready to pack it in at that point and started re-reading old ExPo posts about diamond mounts, and three-point pivots. However, Jeff our engineer said: "Give it some structure and it will all tighten up, trust me." And so we started experimenting.

First we added a 500lb steel fabricating table, lying upside down top of the floor.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3074/2650744701_c736b2dacd.jpg

Then the guys tack welded a simple box frame on the floor to help stiffen it up.

...and then we tested again.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3015/2650740997_4514405838.jpg

Now, the deflection between opposite corners was down to just a few inches, with the mount taking a lot of the flex.

So we tested it some more...
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3162/2650740555_b3c12e8d01.jpg

And things started looking a little better...
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3254/2747773081_6a5ddfcf47.jpg

Now, when you really twist the chassis, the mount actually does what it is designed to do and the two ends behave relatively independently:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3179/2748607606_f929d9a940.jpg

Pretty darn cool actually. I really need to give a big thanks to all who gave me advice about this over the past few months on ExPo and in PM's. But, especially to Jeff Kuhl and the guys at Austin Engineering (http://www.austinengineering.com/)who have done a great job bustin' their butts to lift my truck up in the air repeatedly to see what it will do.

Based on all that, we decided to keep building, under the beliefs that:

the additional structure will only stiffen it up more and let us test what is really going to happen on the trail.

the 'dynamic' sub-frame mount has been designed to be easily removed. If it really doesn't work, then with a forklift and a few hours we can pick the camper up off the chassis, and replace the mount with a more traditional 3-point style mount if we have to.

And so we kept building. Here's what it looks like today:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3236/2748608342_cdae663ae1_b.jpg

I love that shot! :jump: ...it's my new wallpaper and I get excited everytime I look at it.

We're still a long way from being done, but it's all coming together now.

We have almost ALL the parts assembled in the shop. Right down to the kitchen sink, literally.

We've changed the plan (discussed much earlier in this thread) and have been working with Geoff at AirHead (http://www.airheadtoilet.com/) to sort out a usable long-term land-use design for his composting toilet -- but more about that in a future posting.

The plan is to have the frame fully built and the alucobond skin (http://www.alucobondusa.com/what_overview.asp)on the camper in time for us to bring the truck to the Upper Penninsula Expo Rally (http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=14699) at the end of the month. Then comes the hard part - putting all the little details inside: furniture, electrical, plumbing, etc...

Damn am I excited though!

Cheers,
Jay.

Northern Explorer

08-10-2008, 04:21 AM

Looking great!!! Can't wait to see it.

Redline

08-10-2008, 10:31 AM

Excellent Jay, I'm happy for you :-)

CapelConcepts

08-11-2008, 08:48 AM

Jay, Thanks for the updated pics! This build has been great to follow!

I have a question regarding frame flex though. In the off-road/desert racing side of things we'll full cage a truck to make it more ridged, get rid of frame flex, and increase the effectiveness of the suspension. I was wondering if you had considered go this route...with the a structure solid mounted to the frame and the suspension doing the flexing. I haven't seen any large trucks doing this and I was wondering why. Is it because to get the spring rate they need, to carry the large loads, the spring they use don't really move? Or if they do move, does the truck get a ton of body roll? Thanks for any input you may have Jay. Once again this is an incredible build! Thank you for taking your time to share it with us.

jayshapiro

08-14-2008, 04:39 AM

Today we got a cab-over...
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3125/2760813924_9792cc63c3.jpg

And a floor...
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3049/2759970357_6ee63314e3.jpg

Over the next couple of days the guys will be attaching the roof, and then applying the skin & adhesives.

The windows and doors from Dometic were lost for a couple of weeks. I have to commend them that they offered to air-freight them over from Germany at their cost (which would pretty much wipe out any "eco friendliness" of the project) but in the end somebody opened up one of the sea containers and found them! They are the acrylic, dual-pane, top-hinged, Seitz S4 (http://www.dometic.com/ennz/Asia-Pacific/New-Zealand/Product-Overview/RV-Equipment/Roof-vents-Windows--Doors/products/?productdataid=69750) windows. They will be installed this week as well.

Then finally, some of you may have noticed the huge gaping hole on the left side of the camper here:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3160/2760813100_5853d62553.jpg

...it is for a bed tent door from Cascade Designs (http://www.cascadedesigns.com/). I "stole" the concept from the back of a Lance 1131 truck camper, found the manufacturer and ordered one for our truck. It is going to make a fantastic "spare bedroom" for when the grandparents come to visit.

Looks something like this:
http://www.travelizmo.com/archives/lance-camper-1131-truck-camper-2007.jpg

I have to give credit to Rick Klug at Cascade. It turns out that he is an ExPo member, he had been reading about the EcoRoamer, and so was incredibly supportive when we told him that we wanted to include one of their tents in our design.

More details and pics as they come available over the coming days. It's happening fast and furious now...

Cheers,
Jay.

02TahoeMD

08-14-2008, 04:55 AM

WOWEEE Jay. That is coming along nicely. I love the pop out tent design idea too. Enjoying this build a lot, even though I will never be able to have one of my own, is sure is FUN to watch. :lurk:

jayshapiro

08-14-2008, 12:38 PM

Hi there,

Here's a story I just saw on MSNBC about a guy in Utah who has created a "solar powered RV" - well, actually more like a Lance camper with some panels on the roof, but worth watching anyhow...

http://msnbcmedia3.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Video/080813/nc_greenrv_080812.vsmall.jpg
click here to watch (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/26177044#26177044)

(Sorry about the ad at the beginning, couldn't figure out how to link to just the video itself...)

Cheers,
Jay.

jayshapiro

08-14-2008, 12:49 PM

I have a question regarding frame flex though. In the off-road/desert racing side of things we'll full cage a truck to make it more ridged, get rid of frame flex, and increase the effectiveness of the suspension. I was wondering if you had considered go this route...with the a structure solid mounted to the frame and the suspension doing the flexing. I haven't seen any large trucks doing this and I was wondering why. Is it because to get the spring rate they need, to carry the large loads, the spring they use don't really move? Or if they do move, does the truck get a ton of body roll?

Hi,
thanks for the great question, it's something I was trying to figure out as well.

There's a couple of key points that I think lead to the answer:

1 - This truck has solid axles both front and rear, and leaf springs up front while the rear is exclusively airbags. So you don't get a whole lot of articulation on a truck of this size. Nothing like my Jeep. Which means when you go over something with one wheel, the entire axle is going to want to tilt.

2 - The wheel base is 250", and the basic design is still two frame rails spaced fairly narrowly apart. You would need a VERY substantial cage to try to stiffen that up to stop the twist.

3 - The big problem with using the camper box as that 'cage' is that it tranfers all the stresses of the twist into the body, which does not do well on more fragile parts like windows and furniture. That's the whole basis of the dynamic body mount, which allows the frame to do what it needs to do, while isolating the camper body.

There's been a lot of talk about this topic on the forum, with some very helpful thoughts and ideas from people like: joaquimsuave, robthebrit, chip haven and charlie aarons. Do a search around and you'll find some great info!

Cheers,
Jay.

jayshapiro

08-15-2008, 08:21 PM

...and then there was skin!
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3237/2765525053_a928e12928.jpg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3054/2766371466_5b08ebd373.jpg

The Alucobond is going on today. We're using some VERY strong BASF aluminum aircraft adhesive. We'll see what it's like.

The Alucobond (http://www.alucobondusa.com/what_overview.asp) itself is 4mm thick with an insulating type material between the two aluminum faces.
http://www.alucobondusa.com/images/cutaway1.jpg
It uses 80% recycled materials and comes in a variety of colours. The material is pretty lightweight considering it's considerable strength. You can radius it a little, or trench out a section of the filler and one face and then radius tight corners.

We've decided to keep it all flat, and have as few seems as we thought possible. Then we're using a 90 degree rounded extruded aluminum peice to cap the edges. I'll show that in a future post when they're on.

We also got the entry stairs filled in today:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3036/2766371114_6d708619d4.jpg

The idea is that we're going to cut big holes in the risers and put wood doors over them to make storage space for shoes/boots behind each step. The steps themselves will be covered with the same 2mmmarine floor laminate (http://www.worldpanel.com/marinelam.htm)as the rest of the camper.

Stay tuned...
Jay.

ThomD

08-15-2008, 11:16 PM

Looking Good!

So many questions.

Seitz windows? How did you pick those? Their web site makes it look like they do not normally sell them in the US.

Frame design - Did you do the details on the frame structure (number of up rights, material, etc) or did the fabricator work out the details from your basic dismensions?

I'm interested in how you deal with the seams on the skin. Will you use some sort of mechanical fastener/channel or simply form butt joints with sealant?

What's the frame weigh without the skin?

How dent resistant is the .02" aluminum? Is thermal expansion an issue at that scale with the skin? Will the adhesive give a little?

What are your plans for the roof support?

boblynch

08-16-2008, 05:59 PM

Jay it looks great. You guys must be very excited to see it come together after all the research and time spent.

Now that it's roughed in what are the overall dimensions of the rig HxWxL?

haven

08-16-2008, 07:44 PM

Jay,

I'm looking forward to your report about chassis flex with full camper on board. The camper may be twisted some when the truck chassis follows uneven terrain. To my eye, this photo of yours shows the beams that form the camper frame are still being twisted quite a bit.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3179/2748607606_f929d9a940.jpg

Doubting Thomas (otherwise known as Chip Haven)

opie

08-16-2008, 09:10 PM

Jay, thats looking pretty sweet.

Is it going to be finished by this weekend 100%?

jayshapiro

08-17-2008, 12:37 AM

Thanks Guys,
Great feedback as usual...

In answer to some of your comments / questions:

THIS WEEKEND - We will have the shell ready with frame, skin, doors and windows. We'll be sleeping on mattresses on the floor, and cooking on the BBQ. No electrical or plumbing yet, in fact no furniture... but it will be a great first chance to take it out with the 4x4 conversion and the shell. Here's where we put all the theories to the test and discover how wrong we were!

CHASSIS FLEX - Chip, (AKA:Doubting Dorothy) In our last test with the rough 'cube' the deflection between the far corners was about 2". I'm as curious as you to see how that "measures up" with the actual shell on it. I'd ask that whoever is driving on the trail behind me at the UP caravan to please bring their laser guide, and call me if they notice my camper being ripped off the chassis!

DIMENSIONS - Bob here's how it is now looking:
The total width was designed to be 95.5" so I could ship the truck on a shipping pallette. Then somebody much more observant than I, noticed that my new Meritor front axle is actually 101" wide, so what was the point? We expanded the camper then to 101" to match the widest point.

The height remains below the 13ft magic limit. We've build it to be about 12'4", but then there are the solar panels and vents on top of that. Overall, we'll still be below 13ft, but just.

The length is the one that has changed the most. My 'original' designs called for a 25ft camper. Then I realized that was WAY too big and after months and months of juggling components, we managed to get the floor plan down to 17ft. (I'll post it up someday soon) - Then I went and ruined all that by adding an 18" vestibule on the back. Now the "camper" ends with a false wall in the back (with a large window and door) then there is the vestibule area which holds a spare tire, bikes and 2 pre-filter water tanks. Then the actual rear wall has a ramp door that comes down to 90 degrees and has a fiamma awning and tent over it, so it essentially becomes another "room" for the camper during nice weather.

...oh, and yes, we are getting VERY excited!

Jay.

opie

08-17-2008, 02:07 AM

Jay, itll be neat to see it finished or not!!

CapelConcepts

08-17-2008, 05:10 AM

Hi,
thanks for the great question, it's something I was trying to figure out as well.

There's a couple of key points that I think lead to the answer:

1 - This truck has solid axles both front and rear, and leaf springs up front while the rear is exclusively airbags. So you don't get a whole lot of articulation on a truck of this size. Nothing like my Jeep. Which means when you go over something with one wheel, the entire axle is going to want to tilt.

2 - The wheel base is 250", and the basic design is still two frame rails spaced fairly narrowly apart. You would need a VERY substantial cage to try to stiffen that up to stop the twist.

3 - The big problem with using the camper box as that 'cage' is that it tranfers all the stresses of the twist into the body, which does not do well on more fragile parts like windows and furniture. That's the whole basis of the dynamic body mount, which allows the frame to do what it needs to do, while isolating the camper body.

There's been a lot of talk about this topic on the forum, with some very helpful thoughts and ideas from people like: joaquimsuave, robthebrit, chip haven and charlie aarons. Do a search around and you'll find some great info!

Cheers,
Jay.

Thanks for the explanation Jay. I do see the reasoning behind the dynamic body mounts...it just goes against the vehicle control theories that I'm used to. The fact that there is an undampened motion/pivot in the vehicle is just different than the train of thought on smaller vehicles. It obviously works! It will be interesting to see how your mounting system works versus the "traditional" three and four point mountings.

CapelConcepts

08-17-2008, 05:16 AM

jayshapiro

08-19-2008, 04:07 AM

Hi guys,

We're down to less than 2 days from our pick-up date. Here's what it looked like this past weekend. The Alucobond has now been applied:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3231/2777161244_06a13b2e1d.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3200/2776305881_77b93ebb0b.jpg

The stairs look very low in the picture, but they are still more than 24" off the ground. We will take a look at it on the Michigan trip, and we'll decide if we want to possibly raise it up by one step still.

The white parts you see (the door, and the bed tent trim) will be fixed to match the rest of the truck. We're going to glue some spare alucobond on them.

The departure angle has been reduced (due to the vestibule) from 34 degrees, down to 25 degrees. I had really wanted to keep it at 30+ degrees, but at the same time I think the benefits of the vestibule will be worth it.

Also, you can see some of the interior shots of the cab here. I'll take more when we actually get there:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3024/2777149966_2ee129ce6f.jpg
Custom built centre console with CB Radio and switches for all the aux lights.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3022/2777149874_a5a5861b8d.jpg
Overhead console stolen from a Ford Excursion, and then modified to hold the VHF radio face. The from unit will be used for a couple of extra engine guages. (it's on my "to-do" list...)

The roof is now on the camper, and the rear wall will be attached tomorrow.

To answer some of the questions from the past couple of days:

1 - We are using an aluminum rounded 90' edge extrusion around the joints which holds it all together and keeps it water tight. I'll take some pics of it and upload them next week.

2 - We've been involved in every inch of the design, literally shifting items an inch here or there to make room for whatever next component was conflicting with it. Ultimately, we've relied on Jeff's (our engineer) recommendations for structural decisions.

The kids "off-roading" car seats arrived yesterday. They are the Recaro Signo's (http://www.elitecarseats.com/Recaro-Signo.pro) that we bought from EliteCarSeats.com - I have to say that they were one of the best online shopping experiences I've ever had. I'll let you know how the seats are once we've put a couple of little bums in them.

Looking forward to finally taking the truck up to the U.P. this week. See you guys there...

Jay.

ThomD

08-19-2008, 11:03 AM

:clapsmile

In the words of a certain kitty, 'Very nice!"

upcruiser

08-19-2008, 12:29 PM

Congrats Jay! I can't wait to see this thing in action this weekend. :lurk:

DiploStrat

08-22-2008, 02:24 PM

Congratulations on such a monster project.

A thought. I have never shipped a vehicle without considerable theft/damage; have you considered a hard door between the camper and cab to reduce the chances of theft. (The cab is usually a loss as you must leave it open.)

Best wishes.

jayshapiro

08-22-2008, 02:54 PM

Congratulations on such a monster project.

A thought. I have never shipped a vehicle without considerable theft/damage. have you considered a hard door between the camper and cab to reduce the chances of theft. (The cab is usually a loss as you must leave it open.)

You're absolutely right. We do have a hard door between the cab and camper, which serves double duty as the bathroom door. (one door, two openings)

---------------

We picked up the truck yesterday and it is AMAZING! After so many years of dreaming, scheming and drawing you can't imagine what it's like to actually sit in it as a real 'unit' for the very first time.

We're on our way up to Marquette. See some of you there!

Jay.

DiploStrat

08-22-2008, 04:38 PM

Lynn

08-22-2008, 04:59 PM

Congratulations:

-- On clever planning (one door, two uses), and,

-- Actually getting in the beast.

Did you do this all by remote control from Singapore? If so, bagus sekali and you're a braver soul than I!

DiploStrat,

Welcome to the site! How 'bout an intro thread? A quick check of your web site shows you have a lot to share.

upcruiser

08-25-2008, 10:42 PM

Jay, it was really cool having the Eco Roamer along on the trip this weekend. It really does seem bigger in real life then the photos show. I was bringing up the caboose of the vehicle train Saturday (following Jay) and was stopped several times by bewildered folks in the woods wondering what the thing was. I would explain the best I could and all they would do is stare at me with an empty gaze, then basically say, "I don't get it." haha

Anyway, I think the trip was a good shakedown for him as he really put it through its paces on some rough and tight terrain. I give Jay some major credit for not being afraid of squeezing it through a few spots. I witnessed rear tires leaving the ground several times. Anyway, here's a some shots of it and a short clip made by another forum member following it out of camp.

http://tjdiv.smugmug.com/photos/358805376_XJqsD-XL.jpg
http://tjdiv.smugmug.com/photos/358807396_tH52Q-L.jpg
http://tjdiv.smugmug.com/photos/358807559_ZkeZz-L.jpg

upcruiser

08-25-2008, 11:11 PM

http://s251.photobucket.com/player.swf?file=http://vid251.photobucket.com/albums/gg284/NorthernExplorer/EcoRoamer-1.flv&fs=1&os=1&ap=1
Vid clip of it on the trail out of camp

Northern Explorer

08-25-2008, 11:19 PM

Having the Eco Roamer at our event was like having a special guest star show up. I hope it ended up being a productive test trip for you. It was nice meeting you and your family.

http://i251.photobucket.com/albums/gg284/NorthernExplorer/UP%20ExPo%202008/expotrip2008044.jpg

5x5

08-27-2008, 09:51 PM

:iagree:

Plus, the margaritas and chicken wings were great. :chowtime: Any chance you could post the chicken marinade, as I didn't write it down. Thanks, Ian

marke

09-01-2008, 01:35 AM

Great build! I can't wait to see more!

Overland Hadley

09-02-2008, 03:48 AM

Great build! I can't wait to see more!

x2

I read through the whole thread yesterday, very impressive build.

Mickldo

09-15-2008, 08:48 AM

Great build. Cheers.

I am a foreman at a fabrication shop and we make fully enclosed race car trailers, among other things. We use a full aluminium chassis and framework and then sheet it using Di-Bond. We used to use the Alucobond but we found the Di-Bond is available in a greater variety of colours, sizes and thicknesses.

To attach the sheets we use 3M double sided tape. We got the idea from an aluminium, double decker, prototype train we were asked to build for one of the rail mobs here. Apparently it is widely used in the train industry to attach the sides of the trains. It is very simple to apply and once it goes on there is not much chance of it ever coming off. It allows us to build the trailers without any holes for rivets in the sheets for water to leak in past. Well at least in the middle of the sheets, we still rivet the corner capping on using structural rivets.

Seeing your torsional testing is very interesting. Can't wait to see the rest of the build.

jayshapiro

09-29-2008, 05:08 AM

Hi All,

Thanks for your great comments, and thanks to those who posted up pics from our fantastic weekend in the U.P. Michigan (http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=18083). (Thanks Kristian!)

We have spent the past weeks taking the truck out for it's first 'shakedown' trip and it has performed incredibly well overall. (on some pretty tough trails)

We're up in Canada at the moment and haven't had a lot of internet access, hence the lack of posts -- sorry!

However, we're connect again now using our snazzy new "Internet In Motion" system - read about it here! (http://expeditionportal.com/forum/showthread.php?p=278045#post278045)

Over the next week or so, I'll post various updates on the different 'bits' of the truck. In short though:

a) the dynamic body mount performed perfectly. If you've watched the video of us trailing near copper harbour you'll see how the camper was rocking back and forth on it's own - here (http://s251.photobucket.com/player.s...fs=1&os=1&ap=1). (Thanks Jason!)

b) nothing leaked - through torrential rain and substantial dust, the interior stayed dry and clean.

c) We're still running on the highway duallies (not the Conti MPT81's yet) but for the moment we're getting 8-10MPG which (combined with the 125Gal fuel capacity) gives us almost 1,000 mile range - taking some of the bite out of the fuel prices. So far we've only found one BioDiesel station - they don't seem to have them in Canada?!?

I'll be driving the vehicle back to Sturgis, Michingan this week and then comes the job of fitting the interior, the electrical system (including the solar panels), and the plumbing.

In the meantime, here are a couple of quick shots to show you what we've been up to:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3206/2866484839_8719f9edeb.jpg
Taking a break on the trail in Keweena, MI

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3051/2866481459_ae236fc8a5.jpg
Posing for the group shot at the ExPo U.P. weekend

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3149/2867303224_d3c2f71ebf.jpg
Fitting the side tent before leaving Sturgis

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3269/2866485047_7b663413ac.jpg
A very happy Mrs. EcoRoamer - Hey, it only took 3 years to get here!

Stay tuned, there's lot's more adventure to come - but in the mean time: "It works!"

Cheers,
Jay.

jayshapiro

09-29-2008, 05:39 AM

To attach the sheets we use 3M double sided tape. We got the idea from an aluminium, double decker, prototype train we were asked to build for one of the rail mobs here. Apparently it is widely used in the train industry to attach the sides of the trains. It is very simple to apply and once it goes on there is not much chance of it ever coming off. It allows us to build the trailers without any holes for rivets in the sheets for water to leak in past. Well at least in the middle of the sheets, we still rivet the corner capping on using structural rivets.

Thanks.

We took a very similar approach. The Alucobond is attached using a BASF single-part "Degabond" adhesive (http://www.buildingsystems.basf.com/documents/DB8_tdg.pdf) that comes in caulking-type tube. It goes on easy and allows a bit of time to move the sheet around a little bit to get it exactly right before it sets.

Once it is set there is great torsional and separational strength. We played around with it on some samples pieces first and COULD NOT get them separated through all sorts of improper means.

Similar to yours, this one is used for Aluminum aircraft assembly.

So far it has held up with no problem - I'll let you know in 10 years if it's still doing the job!

Cheers,
Jay.

Christian P.

09-29-2008, 05:55 AM

wow.

you have just given a new dimension to the definition of full size camper.

:)

Congratulations!

egn

09-29-2008, 07:10 AM

Northern Explorer

09-29-2008, 11:21 AM

c) We're still running on the highway duallies (not the Conti MPT81's yet) but for the moment we're getting 8-10MPG which (combined with the 125Gal fuel capacity) gives us almost 1,000 mile range.
Jay.

Maybe you should carry a jerry can or two just to be safe. Just kidding.

spencyg

09-29-2008, 12:30 PM

Most of the people here in Europe use Sikaflex 252 (http://www.c-kroeger.de/Homepage/html/english/index-e.htm) or other variants with high ultra violett resistance or higher strength to build their cabins. This is also used a lot for boats.

This polyurethane adhesive has a strength of 4 N/mm² (569 lb/sq.inch). This bonds like hell and it is easy to work with. You need primer for some materials. The only chance to separate bonded parts without damage is to heat the glue and then cut.

This seems to be similar to Degabond.

Sika products are available here, and 3M has an amazing bonding agent called 5200. It takes a couple days to set up and cure, but once it does, you will NEVER seperate the components which you joined. Never. Actually, one needs to be very careful with its use because if you glue down a component which eventually requires replacement or repair, you'll end up doing tons of damage removing it. For gluing together a camper though, I can't think of anything better.

Spence

capterik

10-05-2008, 09:39 PM

Sika products are available here, and 3M has an amazing bonding agent called 5200. It takes a couple days to set up and cure, but once it does, you will NEVER seperate the components which you joined. Never. Actually, one needs to be very careful with its use because if you glue down a component which eventually requires replacement or repair, you'll end up doing tons of damage removing it. For gluing together a camper though, I can't think of anything better.

Spence
They actually make a product called debond , which will remove 5200 really well, but it does do a good job at holding things together.

spencyg

10-06-2008, 02:07 AM

Hadn't heard of Debond....nice to know. My version has always been a putty knife and propane torch :)

Spence

Willman

10-06-2008, 12:53 PM

Wow...Great build!

:REExeSquatsHL1:

This is one killer rig!

Can't wait to see some final interior pictures!

;)

Mickldo

10-07-2008, 12:16 PM

Thanks.

We took a very similar approach. The Alucobond is attached using a BASF single-part "Degabond" adhesive (http://www.buildingsystems.basf.com/documents/DB8_tdg.pdf) that comes in caulking-type tube. It goes on easy and allows a bit of time to move the sheet around a little bit to get it exactly right before it sets.

Once it is set there is great torsional and separational strength. We played around with it on some samples pieces first and COULD NOT get them separated through all sorts of improper means.

Similar to yours, this one is used for Aluminum aircraft assembly.

So far it has held up with no problem - I'll let you know in 10 years if it's still doing the job!

Cheers,
Jay.

We use a product similar to Sikaflex called FixSeal in spots where the tape won't work properly like bigger gaps. We use it on the boats we build too.

whatcharterboat

10-07-2008, 08:41 PM

To attach the sheets we use 3M double sided tape. We got the idea from an aluminium, double decker, prototype train we were asked to build for one of the rail mobs here. Apparently it is widely used in the train industry to attach the sides of the trains. It is very simple to apply and once it goes on there is not much chance of it ever coming off. It allows us to build the trailers without any holes for rivets in the sheets for water to leak in past. Well at least in the middle of the sheets, we still rivet the corner capping on using structural rivets.

Mick . The word is out down here too. Guys are starting to convert over from Sika to tape. They tell me they can't believe how quick and easy it is. I think we'll be stuck with Sika type adhesives for fixing composite panels to our frames but occasionally we do an alloy skin and we'll definitely be looking at tape in the future.

John

whatcharterboat

10-07-2008, 08:45 PM

PS. Jay This truck is a credit to you. Well done.

jatibb

10-07-2008, 08:55 PM

ahhh, 5200. havent heard that in a long time since leaving fla. and the boat repair business. actually had a 80toyota truck with the bedsides glued on with it. never had a problem. goood stuff

Mickldo

10-09-2008, 10:41 AM

Mick . The word is out down here too. Guys are starting to convert over from Sika to tape. They tell me they can't believe how quick and easy it is. I think we'll be stuck with Sika type adhesives for fixing composite panels to our frames but occasionally we do an alloy skin and we'll definitely be looking at tape in the future.

John

The tape is great. No mess, quick, easy, etc. but you do need to have both surfaces flat and clean. If you have any sort of gaps or it is not quite 100% square the Sika is best cause it will fill the gaps.

jayshapiro

10-09-2008, 05:11 PM

WOW, I love this thread - it seems to generate a debate or discussion on all kinds of different topics! So far, I think we've covered environmentalism, diesel engines, frame mounts and now adhesives!

The 3M tape sounds cool, and I'll be sure to try it on some (near) future application. In the mean time the degabond seems to have held up very well so far.

We had a good meeting with the guys at Michiana Laminated Products last week. They are building all the cabinetry for inside the unit so I'm very excited to have that part started. Matt Sutter from MLP has been very helpful so far, and I think they're as eager as I am to get started. It's certainly a "different" project for them I think.

Here's roughly what the interior is going to look like now:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3156/2926433947_0282c65514.jpg

There's a lot in there, but almost everything has at least two purposes:
- The bathroom door also seals the cab from the camper.
- One of the pantry doors also creates the "master bedroom"
- The entry stairs contain storage cabinets for shoes. etc.

--------------------
CABINETS

We've settled on Plyboo (http://www.plyboo.com/plywood.html) - a bamboo based board, for all of the 'furniture'. It looks beautiful, is incredibly strong and comes from fast growing / sustainable bamboo wood.

--------------------
COUNTERS

The countertops are going to be black colored Richlite (http://www.richlite.com/countertop/products.html) - which is made from paper and 'friendly' resin. - can't wait to see them.

--------------------
TOILET

We've also settled on the Airhead composting toilet (http://www.airheadtoilet.com/). This one I am frankly a little nevous about, but I've done a bunch of research on sailing forums and people seem to be pretty happy with them. The original plan was to use a diesel fired incinerator toilet (like this eberspacher one (http://www.eberspacher.com/products/applications/waste/)) but it turns out that they are just too big and in the end didn't seem to be worth the sacrifice.

The Airhead on the otherhand is quite small, and composts all solid waste back into harmless soil compost. Geoffrey Trott (the inventor) has been very helpful in designing our 'special needs' and we're going for a two-container solution with a solar powered vent on the roof to dry out the materials. Hopefully there won't be any odors and the system should work as promised. Stay tuned.

http://www.airheadtoilet.com/elements/images/airheadvertical.jpg
The Airhead Composting Toilet

--------------------
CUSTOM MATTRESS

Finally, we got our three custom mattresses. I had hoped to avoid having to go down the custom route, but in the end the beds needed to be odd-sizes to fit the floor plan. We found Rocky Mountain Mattress (http://www.rockymountainmattress.com/company/custom-mattress.php)that specialize in making odd-size beds for RV's and really tall people I guess. They were also incredibly helpful and rushed out the mattresses to us (for free) in time for us to have them the day before we left on the U.P. Adventure.

The mattresses have a 4" memory foam on top of internal springs, and I've got to say they are more comfortable than the mattress on my bed at home. (I think I should switch!)

It was a bit expensive going the custom route, but a lot cheaper than redesigning our entire frame length to fit around industry-standard mattresses.

--------------------

Over the next couple of weeks, we'll be finalizing the pop-up cabover roof, and the electrical system. Stay tuned!

Cheers,
Jay.

97 zj steve

10-24-2008, 12:08 AM

Wow...Great build!

:REExeSquatsHL1:

This is one killer rig!

Can't wait to see some final interior pictures!

;)

x2...amazing work :Wow1:

Fishenough

10-24-2008, 10:57 AM

Great build and thread! Loving all 23 pages.

Spent 14 days on a 30 year old, 51' ketch last month through the inside passege with an Airhead toilet, and the only I could have definitely recommended you already choose.

Now you just need your own jatropha plantation as a home based fuel source.

Regards,
Kev

OZTRAY-JOHN

11-03-2008, 11:13 PM

Wow! not nescessarily my cup of tea but an amazing build from start to finish! Really impressive! There was some discussion about the strength of the alucobond? panels. How will they hold up against scraping against branches and whatnot? How are they joined? is it just a butt joint?

John

scottymizt

11-04-2008, 12:14 PM

Looks great jay!!! mikey and i were wondering how it was going for you and how everything performed. I still have to send a care package to the boys in stergis with the lil tid bits that are still here.

scotty
Alton co

haven

11-04-2008, 10:11 PM

From SEMA, a possible paint scheme for Jay's F650:

http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z241/expeditioncampers/SEMA%202008/DSCF4612.jpg

jayshapiro

11-06-2008, 02:45 AM

From SEMA, a possible paint scheme for Jay's F650:

HA HA... Pretty subtle!

Judgling by the custom headlights and the extra doors, I'm guessing that was one of Alton's trucks done by "Scotty & Mikey" (see the posting before yours)

Very slick, but not exactly our style...

Cheers,
Jay.

PS - Wish I was out at SEMA with you guys. Hope you had a great BBQ. Maybe we'll bring the EcoRoamer as a special guest next year.

OutbacKamper

11-06-2008, 05:22 AM

Prybry

11-06-2008, 06:28 PM

Jay, the build looks to be progressing very nicely...

had one question on the comp. toilet... is the peat required going to be hard to find were your planning to go?
Just a thought...

jayshapiro

11-07-2008, 02:43 AM

Jay
I have been enjoying following your build, thanks for sharing so many details. Now I have a question ....
I noticed you have a fold out tent room. Is this a standard RV part that can be purchased and installed as a kit or assembly, or was this custom built ?

Cheers
Mark

on edit: I just found the answer to my question on page 19 (http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8936&page=19), man this is a BIG post.
Thanks

Glad you're enjoying it!

...And yes you're right, back on Page 19 (http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8936&page=19) I talked about the bed tent. We've since mounted it, slept in it and it's fantastic.

The tent itself is from Cascade Designs, and is the same one used by several RV manufacturers. They are not really set up to sell one-offs, but Rick Klug, is a fellow ExPo member and was incredibly helpful.

I hope he doesn't mind, but here are his contacts if you want to order one for your build:
Rick Klug
Cascade Designs
Specialty Sales Manager
888-801-5335 ext 1497

That just gets you the tent, You still need to build the actual door to mount it on. In our case we used Nappanee Windows (http://www.nappaneewindow.com/) (who build the same door for several of their RV Manufacturer clients) - but I understand that they are going through some rough times, and I'm not sure if they're choice again at the moment...

There's nothing particularly rocket science about the door though, so I'm sure you could build your own.

Here's what the bed tent looks like deployed:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3149/2867303224_d3c2f71ebf.jpg

Cheers,
Jay.

OutbacKamper

11-07-2008, 03:05 AM

Jay;
What are the door dimensions (width and height) required for the tent?
Thanks

jayshapiro

11-07-2008, 03:08 AM

had one question on the comp. toilet... is the peat required going to be hard to find were your planning to go?
Just a thought...

Yes, you're probably right...

Geoff at Airhead recommended that we use the compressed Coir bricks, which are made from coconut husks. They come in a highly compressed, dried and sealed in a brick. I bought a case of 24 bricks from Discount Hydroponics (http://www.discount-hydro.com/productdisp.php?pid=363&navid=34).

If they actually last for one month each (as suggested) then the case should last me for a couple of years. If we need more, then we'll just go back online and order more if we have to.

I still don't know how well it will work, but I'll certainly post the results here...

Cheers,
Jay.

jayshapiro

11-07-2008, 03:19 AM

Jay;
What are the door dimensions (width and height) required for the tent?
Thanks

Sent you a PM...

jayshapiro

11-09-2008, 04:27 AM

The New York Times ran a story this week about a few other examples of people working on eco-friendly camper ideas. Most of them are conversions of existing RV's using veggie diesel.

Still, an interesting read and very encouraging to see other people starting to create this trend.

We've been very excited about the prospect of EcoRoamer like vehicles on the trails someday, exploring nature without destroying it at the same time...

Read on!

Cheers,
Jay.

Read the original story here (http://travel.nytimes.com/2008/11/07/travel/escapes/07RV.html?pagewanted=1&sq=eco%20friendly%20rv&st=cse&scp=1).
=======================================
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/misc/logoprinter.gif
November 7, 2008
The Green RV

By LINDA BAKER
OVER the last few years, Sara and Matt Janssen have been downsizing their life. First, they moved from a 1,600-square-foot home to a small apartment in Montana. Then, wanting to tour the country without harming the planet, they took up residence in a recreational vehicle fueled by used vegetable oil.

They now travel with their 4-year-old daughter, Bella, spreading the word about the sustainable life.

Recreational vehicles, which get about 8 miles a gallon, are often considered the antithesis of low-impact living. But it doesn’t have to be that way, said Ms. Janssen, speaking by phone from her home, a 36-foot, 1998 Western Alpine Coach, when it was parked in Des Moines recently.

Their motor home has a hot water capacity of only six gallons, “so I know how long my showers are,” said Ms. Janssen, a 31-year old photographer who also works for her father, a developer of franchises for Cold Stone Creamery. The RV’s limited space also means “we can’t buy anything because it won’t fit,” she said.

Add to that a comprehensive remodeling, including nontoxic paints, bamboo floors and the waste-grease fueling system, and the Janssen mobile home “is a self-contained lifestyle,” Ms. Janssen said.

Amid growing interest in alternative-fuel vehicles and environmentally friendly building methods, a handful of designers and do-it-yourselfers are taking on an unlikely challenge: reinventing the motor home, with a goal of transforming the typical wide-body gas guzzler into a model of compact green construction and fuel efficiency.

These modern-day RV owners are using their retooled motor homes as vehicles, literally, to promote ecological awareness as they travel.

“If you can make an RV sustainable, you can make any industry sustainable,” said Ty Adams, a Portland, Ore., resident who spent 2007 visiting 25 states and promoting renewable energy in the BioTrekker, an RV powered by biodiesel, a fuel made from refined vegetable oil. Mr. Adams spent $108,000 for the RV and $12,000 more for the biodiesel upgrade and campaign, which he financed by selling his house.

The trend received a boost a couple of years ago when Willie Nelson began powering his tour bus with biodiesel, which he called BioWillie, and later convinced other musicians to do the same. But regular RV owners say that their tours serve another purpose besides sustainable travel, namely to reflect a desire for a simpler, if not entirely bygone, era of road tripping and nature appreciation.

“When people talk about conservation, they get so bogged down with recycling and living lightly they forget what they are trying to save," said Brian Brawdy, a 47-year-old former police investigator turned wilderness expert. “I want people to get out there and camp, hike, rock climb."

Mr. Brawdy, a spokesman for Gore-Tex, is on a self-described — and self-financed — “Wonder Explore Believe” tour of the United States in a Lance Camper modified to capture rainwater and use wind and solar energy.

Although hybrid and alternative-fuel RV models have yet to find a mass market, the industry is moving toward fuel-economy prototypes and environmental designs, said Kevin Broom, a spokesman for the Recreation Vehicle Industry Association, which is based in Reston, Va. Individual RV owners are leading the way, he said. An industry survey conducted last year found that about 18 percent of RV owners are already using solar panels, Mr. Broom said.

“As consumers ask for more green elements, manufacturers will definitely respond,” he said, adding that some of the luxury RV models are already replacing ubiquitous vinyl interiors with hardwood. “It comes in on the high end, then works its way down. ”

Mr. Adams is taking another approach after his BioTrekker experience. An avid mountain climber who grew up in Montana, Mr. Adams, 30, described biofuel as his “gateway drug” but said: “Living in the RV for a year made me realize they are not built well. The focus is on whipped cream and faux finishes.”

So last January, Mr. Adams, a former editor for an RV industry publication, sold the BioTrekker and purchased a 37-foot 1994 Safari Trek — “which in RV years is like 1,000,” he said — and partnered with Joseph Treiber, a retired farmer, and Allison Hintzmann, a teacher, on a top-to-bottom environmental redesign. The fruit of their labor is called the SolTrekker, which is painted in Tuscan reds and yellows and includes solar-powered water and electrical systems, a composting toilet, rainwater harvesting system, recycled denim insulation, LED lighting and bamboo interiors.

Shortly after the SolTrekker was completed in September, the vehicle was featured as part of an annual tour of green homes in Portland.

“Most RV-ers care a lot about the outdoors,” Mr. Adams said. “They just don’t want to sleep on the ground; they don’t want to backpack.”

Instead of demonizing RVs, the goal should be to improve their performance, said Mr. Adams, who ultimately envisions a hybrid electric motor home getting at least 50 miles a gallon.

Similarly, Mr. Brawdy, speaking by phone from Cleveland, said: “People RV because they like that sense of independence. I hope it communicates to energy independence as well.”

Over the last year, he has taken his rig to such remote areas as Death Valley and Zion National Park without worrying about plugging in because of his off-the-grid electricity sources.

Mr. Brawdy, who extols the benefits of reconnecting with nature — “dirt is in our DNA” — during appearances at sporting goods stores and other venues, said a bout of skin cancer triggered his interest in renewable energy sources. “I decided to look at the bright side and harness the power of the sun to protect natural resources,” he said, adding that a storm the night before yielded 40 gallons of water from the camper’s rainwater harvesting system.

He said most of what he knows about the camper’s wind turbine and solar panels has come from on-the-road experience — a fact he hopes will encourage others to emulate his example. “I thought I could show the world: ‘Hey, Brian doesn’t look like the sharpest knife in the drawer, so maybe I can have a rig like that, too,’ ” he said.

Others have hopes of taking the environmentally friendly RV much further. Alexandre Verdier, a 35-year-old from Montreal, has designed a prototype camper that includes a diesel hybrid engine and solar panels that are controlled by a global positioning system to capture the maximum amount of sunlight. The vehicle is an update of the classic Volkswagen Westfalia camper van, which was synonymous with the counter culture in the 1970s.

“I did a lot of trips in the Westfalia, so I came up with the idea of a new green version,” said Mr. Verdier, citing as particular inspiration a three-month trip he took with friends around the United States when he was 17.

The design for the Westfalia Verdier won a 2006-7 Innovation for New Mobility prize awarded during the Caravan Salon Düsseldorf in Germany, one of Europe’s largest caravanning exhibition and trade shows. Mr. Verdier said that he was negotiating with a manufacturer and that the vehicles, with an estimated price of $129,000, should be available next summer.

Even for those RV owners already on the road, being a pioneer has its challenges. To fill their 100-gallon tank with used cooking oil, Sara and Matt Janssen scour the landscape for fast-food and mom-and-pop restaurants willing to give away an increasingly valuable commodity. The fueling process itself takes about an hour, Ms. Janssen said, adding that the couple invested in an on-board oil filtration system, which strains the “batter and chicken chunks” before the oil reaches the engine.

It’s a laborious process and “not soccer-mom friendly,” she said.

The Janssens’ current home represents a sort of second chapter to their journey. When they began their trip in September 2007, a venture that they called the Live Lightly Tour and that they documented at www.livelightlytour.com, they were traveling in a 1994 Fleetwood Flair.

Having traded up to their 1998 Western Alpine Coach in September, they figure that they have traveled about 20,000 miles in all and resorted to diesel fuel just once, outside of Austin, Tex.

“It was our fault,” Ms. Janssen said. “We didn’t start looking early enough.”

She estimates that they saved about $25,000 using the kitchen grease instead of conventional fuel. “We wouldn’t have been able to do the tour if we had had to pay for gas,” she said.

Although the family will live in Bozeman, Mont., for the winter — in their RV — they are contemplating whether to continue the road trip next spring.

But their work, and their old RV, lives on. Last April, the Janssens spent a few days in Plano, Tex., with Jeff and Kim Harrison, who had been following the Janssens’ tour online. The Harrisons, who have a 3-year-old son, Parks, were inspired to buy the Janssens’ original RV and start preparing for their own trip on the road next spring. That means storing used vegetable oil in a 50-gallon barrel as they find it, and testing the RV on weekend trips to visit family in West Monroe, La.

“To be able to travel and not take up more resources than you have to — this is a great way to have it all,” Mrs. Harrison said.

Copyright 2008 The New York Times Company

pete.wilson

11-15-2008, 10:49 PM

Hey

It's been awhile since I have been on but I must say how much I enjoyed and learned from reading this build so far. That sure beats running around in some modified tour bus. I hope we get to see nore about the electronics, heating, cooling, furnishing, etc. Absolutely an AWESOME vehicle.

Pete Wilson
Ottawa, KS

Every Miles A Memory

01-02-2009, 06:26 AM

Long term expedition travelers are probably not heating/cooling large homes, sitting in traffic for hours a day in our v8 luxury SUV, shopping endlessly to fill our house and garage with crap we’ll later donate to charity, watering our large chemically treated lawns to keep them greener than the neighbors, ignoring our kids while they play video games on the big screen TV, and flooding the world with security lights so the “wrong kind of people” don’t intrude on our manicured lifestyle. Don’t look down on these folks at least they recycle their water bottles and are better than the neighbors 10 feet away who drive the dreaded H2.

Thanks for all the PMs, encouragement, and inspiration. Best of luck on the build!

Bob

I love this rant right here. My wife and I live in a 25' Travel Trailer pulled by a F-250 PSD. I get yuppies yelling at me all the time that I'm buring too much fossil fuels by towing this camper around all these miles!

My usual responce is "Lady, my wife and I havent bee plugged into shore power in almost 2 years, we live off of Solar Power and use a total of 40 gallons every 10-12 days. How much does that off-set the tank of diesel that takes me a few days or weeks to get me from Point A to Point B?"

They're usually saying this to me while they're filling up their car that is idling in a station while they ran up to grab a pack of gum or something that probably wasnt needed to beging with.

Jeesh, enough with the bantering already. If you can live in 200 square foot of space for a few years, you cant burn enough diesel fuel to compare to what you'd be buring by living in a stick house.

Personally, I think this build rocks and am totally jealous/envious at the same time!

boblynch

01-02-2009, 01:32 PM

Pat thanks for the kind words. Welcome to the ExPo site, your recent posts and pics are a great addition.

Jay, if newcomers are referencing my year-old rants, it means your build thread needs an update! Post new pics so we can all be jealous...

Bob

Every Miles A Memory

01-02-2009, 10:29 PM

Thanks Bob, I cant believe it found me this long to stumble into this wealth of Overland Knowledge!!

Cant wait to see this rig finished and rolling down the road!

Byrdseye

01-08-2009, 03:50 AM

Nice work! Thanks for sharing your experience as there are many ideas and details to "steal".:arabia: I was hoping you could point me in the right direction to a supplier for the rounded exterior corner aluminum pieces.
Please keep up the interesting build posts........I can't wait to see the electrical/plumbing/interior build.
Thanks Again! :bowdown:

sprale

01-10-2009, 07:52 AM

Nice build. I'm impressed by the patience! Just big enough to live in, small enough to move wherever you decide home is, or should be. Any recent stages completed? I can't believe I stayed up until 3am, I was determined to finish reading this one once I started it!

:clapsmile

jayshapiro

02-01-2009, 02:15 AM

Hello All,

I hope that everyone is doing well, and that the January blues aren't getting you down too much!

Well, Bob is absolutely right, I am WAY over due to post an update on the progress of the EcoRoamer build, but it has been a bit of a crazy few months. Here's what has been going on...

My Mother-in-Law (who is an amazingly strong and loving woman/mother/grandmother) has unfortunately gotten quite ill, and so we made the family decision to relocate to be closer to her. Which means that after 14 fantastic years in Singapore, we've packed up our lives and moved to New Jersey. (I know, huge upgrade!)

That meant that I spent most of December madly scrambling in Singapore to (sniff!) sell my Jeep, sell my Land Cruiser, and pack our entire existence into a shipping container to go across the ocean.

Of course on the other end, there was house hunting, mortgage arranging, and container unloading.

So needless to say, it has been pretty busy and the truck got put on the back burner for a little while.

However, our amazingly dedicated group of guys in Sturgis have been working away on the project (Thanks Jeff, Matt, Scott & Bob!) and so it hasn't been a complete waste of time. Also, now that I am "closer" I've been able to work more easily with them and so things are starting to accelerate.

Over the next few posts I'll update you on what's been going on. Aside from the truck itself though, the other big news is that I've been spending my evenings working on the NEW website, and I think it is finally ready to reveal to all-important ExPo community. If you have the chance, please stop by and visit:

www.EcoRoamer.com (http://www.ecoroamer.com)

Like the rest of the project, the site follows our philosophy of 'open source' so it is built (by me) using the free Drupal platform, and all of our project documents are on there for you to use in your own future endeavors.

Thanks to all of you for your great support and comments / questions over the past few months. Sorry to have been so silent. We're back now though, and you should be hearing a lot more about the project over the next few weeks.

Cheers,
Jay.

02TahoeMD

02-01-2009, 02:36 AM

Thanks for the update and welcome to the East Coast! If you pick up a trail - oriented vehicle and ever want to go play at Rausch Creek or the Pine Barrens, drop a line....best wishes on dealing with your ma in-law's health.

jayshapiro

02-03-2009, 03:34 AM

Hi,

About 3 weeks ago I managed to get out to Sturgis, to work on the truck and meet with the guys for some updates.

Those of you who live / have visited Indiand/Michigan in January will not be surprised to hear that it was -17'F and looked like this:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3419/3243138396_a01c476cb3_m.jpg
I can't believe I left a life in the tropics for this!

However, we did get some good work accomplished, and I thought you guys might be interested in some of it...

ENTRANCE STAIRS

If you were at the ExPo trip to the U.P. in August, you will have noticed that our departure angle was less than fantastic due to the rear stair entrance. A great example of something looking better on AutoCAD than in real life.

So, we cut it off, shortened it up and remounted it with great effect:

BEFORE:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3453/3242292433_ee0d37b3dd.jpg

AFTER:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3090/3243123978_8c48c721f1.jpg

We also built out the box to include storage cubbies for boots and things behind the riser on each step. It was dead space that now has a purpose. Almost every inch on the truck now suits at least TWO different purposes, some of them 3 or 4.

Here's an older picture of the stairs:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3036/2766371114_6d708619d4_m.jpg

WINDOW SHUTTERS

The other thing we learned in the U.P. was how prone the Seitz acrylic windows are to get scratched up my the foliage along the trails. We had mounted the windows recessed before, but it was not enough.

In order to preserve the windows a little, and to add to our 'cargo truck' transformers camougflage, we added aluminum shutter flaps to all of the windows. These will eventually be painted to match the rest of the body and should blend in very nicely.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3349/3220037521_d81b3fcb8a.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3117/3243144650_4d9f6e2388.jpg
Special thanks to David, Iris & Travis Hammond and their Mercedes truck from Germany for the inspiration for those!

Now that our cargo truck disguise is almost complete we've been joking around about painting fake business names on the side of the truck. While this should make the border guards less likely to believe that "we're a motorhome, not commercial", it will have the benefit of making the average yabbo completely ignore us.

We were trying to think of the most universal names we could come up with, which would appeal to the largest group of 'baddies'. Something like:

"Mustafa Garcia's Halal Meat Supply"

"Tan Teck Kiang Furniture Company" (written in Chinese & English)
(completely joking of course...)

Now the work begins on the interior. We've already finalized some of the designs for:

The stairs / storage / entrance to tent:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3264/3243120352_6e57281934.jpg
(with deference to Unicat & Host Campers for their inspiration on those)

...and the dinette / chest freezer / clothing chest-of-drawers:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3488/3220065577_a02efed883.jpg

These are now being built by Matt Sutter and his great guys at Michiana Laminates (http://www.michianalaminated.com/), out of Plyboo (http://www.plyboo.com/) (bamboo wood boards) and SierraPine's Medex (http://www.sierrapine.com/index.php?pid=68) (recycled material MDF boards).

Stay tuned for more updates...

Cheers,
Jay.
www.EcoRoamer.com (http://www.EcoRoamer.com)

Northern Explorer

02-03-2009, 04:00 AM

I've seen your website. It looks really good. Do you have any info on the tires/wheel setup I see pictures of. They look like the new Earthroamer wheels.

Harald Hansen

02-03-2009, 06:46 AM

Here's one approach re: stealth from Kevin Kelly's excellent Cool Tools blog (http://www.kk.org/cooltools/archives/000158.php):

My Jeep is camouflaged to look like a commercial fleet vehicle. I made up a fake company name, appropriated a 1950s-era logo that once belonged to a nuclear energy mutual fund, painted safety stripes on the back, and plastered a fake vehicle number all over the place. I also added flashing yellow lights in the rear window, and a police-style spotlight and rubberized push bumper to the front. VERY FUN accessories ... and useful too (when used with discretion). The spotlight is incredibly versatile -- you can point/rotate it while sitting in the driver's seat -- and it's come in handy countless times for roadside emergencies, setting up campsites, or finding house numbers on dark streets.

This urban camouflage guise is very useful for parking in yellow zones, urban/industrial exploration, and crime deterrence. And the thing is... it really works!

http://www.kk.org/cooltools/archives/jeep.web.jpg

Lynn

02-03-2009, 01:43 PM

We were trying to think of the most universal names we could come up with, which would appeal to the largest group of 'baddies'. Something like:

"Mustafa Garcia's Halal Meat Supply"

"Tan Teck Kiang Furniture Company" (written in Chinese & English)
(completely joking of course...)

For my dream vehicle I'm planning something really deterring, like:

Rotheschild’s Septic and Sewer Sucking Service

And an 'urban camouflage' paint scheme that looks like splatters of brown stuff.

That should keep most people at a distance. :)

With apologies to Red Green.

jayshapiro

02-03-2009, 03:11 PM

Rotheschild’s Septic and Sewer Sucking Service

And an 'urban camouflage' paint scheme that looks like splatters of brown stuff.

How about:

"Blackwater Mobile Nuclear Disposal Unit"

:Wow1:
Jay.

Lynn

02-03-2009, 03:17 PM

How about:

"Blackwater Mobile Nuclear Disposal Unit"

:Wow1:
Jay.

or Greenwater...?

"Blackwater Mobile Nuclear Disposal and Custom Nightlight Designer"

jayshapiro

02-03-2009, 03:56 PM

I've seen your website. It looks really good.

Jason,

Thanks for the compliments on the EcoRoamer.com (http://www.EcoRoamer.com) website. I'm really happy with how it is coming together. I remember about only 5-7 years ago when you HAD to spent 1/2 million dollars to get a decent web content management system. The fact that today, you can build a pretty comprehensive site like this, with no special tools or skills using one of the free CMS's like Drupal (http://www.drupal.org) or Joomla (http://www.joomla.org), blows me away...

Do you have any info on the tires/wheel setup I see pictures of. They look like the new Earthroamer wheels.

Good question...

I suppose this is as good a time as any to bring up "The Wheels Discussion". It's one of my most sore points about the whole project, and I'm really stuck, so I'm open to any suggestions any of you have:

Once upon a time, a long, long time ago... I made a horrible mistake and ordered 5 wheels from USA6x6 with a "6 week delivery." Together with that was supposed to be 5 Michelin XZL 20" tires. This was back in the days before I Googled every supplier I work with to see if there are lots of Internet postings warning what thieves they are. (like this (http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&rlz=1T4SUNA_enSG244SG245&q=%2Busa6x6+thief+liar&meta=)!)They switched the tires to much lower rated military tires, and then said "oops, well we can't get the XZL's anymore anyhow"

So I went out and bought my own Continental MPT81 20"x14.5" tires (5 of them - which are now sitting gathering dust (NEW!) in Michigan)

6 MONTHS LATER my wheels finally show up. We mounted the Continental tires on them, filled them up with air and within 24hrs all 5 are flat because the welds on the wheels all leaked. We tried to break apart the bolt-togethers and discovered that some idiot in their shop put silicone sealant between the bolt-togethers rather than a rubber o-ring so it took a forklift to break them.

I sent those back and told USA6x6 I wanted my money back rather than having them fix them. Daniel insisted that he had just got a 'new set in' and these were much better and he'd do all the shipping both ways for free. I knew I wasn't going to get my money, and I still needed wheels, so I stupidly said "ok".

6 weeks later the next set of wheels show up. Except this time there are only 4 wheels (not 5) and 1 of the 4 of them are different from the other 3.

My guys in Michigan told me that these wheels have some strange internal bead locks (i.e. - not usual beadlocks) on them and they couldn't get my tires mounted on them.

Also, They were hub-centric, not stud-piloted, which means the hole pattern matched, but the stud sizes were different. We toyed with the idea of changing my studs, or putting sleeves on them, or something stupid like that, but then gave up bothering to even pursue these. Especially since I'd still need 2 more for the spares.

Then USA 6x6 went bankrupt, and the whole world is hunting down Daniel, so I gave up on the money I've obviously lost with those jokers, and stopped trying to fix the wheels to start looking for others.

I have talked to the guys at Stockton Wheels (http://www.stocktonwheel.com/), but theirs won't support the load of the EcoRoamer. (about 27,000 pounds over 4 wheels = 6,750 lbs per wheel/tire)

I have tried sourcing bolt-togethers from Hutchinson (http://www.hutchinsoninc.com/), (who makes the EarthRoamer wheels) but have had no luck reaching anyone there who knows what I'm talking about.

I found a great set of wheels from Accuride (http://www.accuridewheels.com/) (called the 40082) that they make for OshKosh Military trucks, but they won't make small volumes of them for me, and OshKosh will sell me some of theirs through their Parts counter at $1,500 a piece, with 4 months delivery time. -sigh-

At this point I'm thinking about giving up on my plan of having 20" super singles with 2-piece bolt-togethers for field servicing (and all of the benefits that I thought would go along with those) and just selling my Continentals for a set of 22.5" tires that I can run as duallies on my existing Alcoas.

I gain extra load capacity.
I lose the tracking benefits.
I gain flashy chrome wheels (which I suppose I could always paint/powdercoat)
I lose the ability to change a tire in the field.

hmmm.... no wait, that doesn't sound too good!

Any suggestions / advice / criticisms / sarcastic "I told you so's" are grudingly welcome!

Cheers,
Jay.

Continentals mounted on Leaky USA6x6 wheels:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2198/2094915492_faf92a0ace.jpg

Truck with the 20" wheels and tires:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2400/2094916284_f14d247d8a.jpg

...and the flashy Trucker Alcoas:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3050/2867314088_2c192020f4.jpg

PS - Jason, this remains one of my favourite all time scale pics of the truck next to your already impressive Colorado rig:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3198/2897244457_39aa0e6b9d.jpg

Cheers,
Jay.