Rover Fever?

[Alaska Mike]

A little advice required...

I've been a Jeep CJ guy forever. Vehicles that exude "funk factor" just own my soul. Recently a friend dropped by and noticed the Jeep. Then he casually mentioned that he had a Series III 88 hardtop sitting in his backyard and asked if I was interested. Rusted frame and bulkhead, but he says it runs and drives well. I could probably get it for a song.

Now I have Rover Fever. I've had Jeep Fever on several occasions and it ended up with me spending waaaayyyy too much money and having waaaayyyy too much fun while alienating my wife more than a little.

Any suggestions?

[Andrew Walcker]

Avert your gaze, turn and run like you have never run before....:shakin:

You probably already know what you could possibly be getting yourself into. Very cool vehicles but starting with a rusted out one is going to be expensive.

[Mercedesrover]

With a bad frame and bulkhead you'll spend $5k in a heartbeat just getting it safe for the road. It just gets worse from there.

If a stockish 88" is what you're looking for, save up the bread and come down below and find one with a new, or at least decent frame. For $7k-$10k you can usually find yourself a pretty nice truck. Get the one up there for spares.

jim

[Linus Tremaine]

My rover has a "rusty" frame and bulkhead, but its safe. I would look at it and see how bad it is. Just because you have a hole in your floor board or an out rigger doesnt mean you need a new frame and bulkhead- you can still drive the heck out of it and it may still be a good truck. If you want to restore it, have it be nice, dry and warm (if you can have that in a rover?...?) look elsewhere.


Rust holes and less than perfect frames should not be a death sentence to an otherwise good rover. It may be perfectly serviceable as is-just more expensive to restore if that is your intention.

[Jonathan Hanson]

It all depends on the individual. If all you want is a clean vehicle, yup, you're far better off buying it clean. But if you take satisfaction in doing things yourself, and if you might even have a more sentimental aim in rescuing a decrepit classic, dive in. Plus, when you're finished, you'll know every nut and bolt on it.

[Alaska Mike]

Let's be honest- I'm coming from a Jeep background, so nothing is too sacred to swap out or modify for me, with the exception of the body (which is the only reason I really want the vehicle- the looks). I understand that is heresy in the Rover world, but I'm not in the resto mindset. First and foremost I want a vehicle that won't leave me stranded in the woods, since being stranded up here is a serious matter.

I'll sleep on it for a week or so and maybe then go over and take a gander at it. No use in rushing into another money pit based on a passing fancy.

[Alaska Mike]

Well, as it turns out my friend dropped me an email. Looks like I misunderstood a bit. It's a 1973 Series III that doesn't run (he doesn't know why) that was purchased as a parts car but never pulled from. He was told there was frame rust and bulkhead rust, but he's not sure since he didn't look at it that closely. He says the exterior is in good shape, but this would be a project car for sure. He'll be forwarding me some pictures to get an idea of what I'm looking at.

He's asking $500, which I think is what he has into it.

Thoughts? I'm intrigued.

I have all sorts of crazy ideas running through my head right now, so I'm going to wait a couple days and see if I calm down.

[Jonathan Hanson]

Hard to go wrong at that price!

[OverlandZJ]

I have all sorts of crazy ideas running through my head right now, so I'm going to wait a couple days and see if I calm down.


At least until the pics hit your inbox.

As Jonathan stated... the price is right, and a SeriesIII project sounds awesome.

Just out of curiosity, how wide are Series axle assemblies? Wheelbase?

[TeriAnn]

At least until the pics hit your inbox.
Just out of curiosity, how wide are Series axle assemblies? Wheelbase?

The model number of a Land Rover is its wheelbase in inches. In his initial posting he said it was an 88, so it is the short wheelbase version with an 88 inch wheelbase.

Series III Land Rovers are 66 inches (5.5ft) overall width. Its a tad early for me to go out and crawl under my Land Rover with a measuring tape but figure the axle will be a tad narrower than the body.

[Schattenjager]

The three years I spent in Alaska amazed me at how well preserved the older cars were. Take a look at the rust and give us a report of how bad it is - surface rust or holes the size of text books? I moved back to Colorado about four months ago and amazed how newer cars here look like crap. Anchorage only uses sand in winter and the lack of sunlight - (far less intense in the summer than down here and the winter... well...) If the Rover spent a lot of time up there it just might be a good find!

[Alaska Mike]

What $500 will get you:

http://home.gci.net/~lf4w/images/Rover1.jpg
http://home.gci.net/~lf4w/images/Rover2.jpg
http://home.gci.net/~lf4w/images/Rover3.jpg
http://home.gci.net/~lf4w/images/Rover4.jpg

The deal is pretty much done. The interior is shades of duct-tape, there's probably some body work to be done, and I didn't look all too closely at the frame. The engine has an old sock shoved in the carb, but it looks like most of the parts are there. The dash is partially removed, and there are no jump seats in the back. The roof rack in the back is something I may just leave off.

On the upside, it's in better shape than I expected, and it's painted a color in the froggy tone spectrum, which I'm very happy about. I'll try to get it home sometime this week so I can start making my shopping list. I know the guy who sold it to the current owner, so he can give me the lowdown on what's wrong with it (he used to own the best 4x4 shop in town). Something tells me this ain't gonna be cheap, though...

Looks like I'm in the club. What's the secret handshake?

[Andrew Walcker]

Hey Mike, she is a beauty; Congrads!!! The secret handshake ehhh? Well, I'd say it's not really a handshake, but take your left and right hands and bring them together in front of you with the plams up. Press hands very tightly together, curving downward and forming a "bowl" were the hands meet. Keep pressing them very tightly now as you do not want to see any daylight between your hands. Now, this will work great for catching all those fluids that will be flowing straight thru all the weathered gaskets:) Keep us posted on the build and how about some interior pics?

[Alaska Mike]

I know it's heresy, but if the frame is more or less sound I'm going to look at replacing the engine/drivetrain with something... um... less leaky. I haven't decided yet, but a GM Iron Duke (2.5L I-4) backed by a T-18 and a Spicer 18 sounds interesting. There are others that I'm looking at, but that looks to be the cleanest install with the least amount of hassle/overall expense. I need to do some measuring to see if the package is feasable, and a lot of this depends on the condition of the stock drivetrain/engine. The axles will probably stay stock, but I may look at better shafts in the future. One step at a time. I'd love an overdrive transmission or a modern fuel-injected engine, but the parts just don't seem to line up right when it comes to adapters, lengths, and component strength. If it was a 109 this wouldn't be an issue, but I have to be practical- especially on my budget.

I have nothing against the stock components, but they may be more expensive to fix than they're worth in the long run. Reading the Turtle Expedition's page about the Series III Turtle I, this quote jumped out at me:

"Every time we replaced a Land Rover part with an American part, the truck got more reliable."

Also, my shipping is twice what most people's is, and the heavier the package the more I get hosed. Last time I tried to ship a bumper it was well over $150 in freight for a $130 part. No thank you. A reliable rig is all I'm looking for in the end. Of course, the end may be 15 years from now.

So, now all I have to do is get it from the icy mountainside where it now sits (steep roads) down to my house, where I can go over it and give it a name. Then it's a long journey towards resurrection as my finances allow. We'll see where it goes...

[Andrew Walcker]

Nothing wrong w/ replacing with better parts IMHO. One of the coolest Rover builds was one that was featured on 4 Wheel Drive Magazine a few years back. It has a complete Toyota drivetrain! I'll see if I can't find some pics. Also, check out MercedesRover on this site. He has some great Mercedes powerplant ideas.

[TeriAnn]

I haven't decided yet, but a GM Iron Duke (2.5L I-4) backed by a T-18 and a Spicer 18 sounds interesting. There are others that I'm looking at, but that looks to be the cleanest install with the least amount of hassle/overall expense. I need to do some measuring to see if the package is feasable, and a lot of this depends on the condition of the stock drivetrain/engine. The axles will probably stay stock

I have a Ford 302, t-18 & Series transfercase in my Land Rover. The T-18 will fit but you will have to modify the bulkhead a little for additional bellhousing clearance, fabricate a new tunnel, modify the seat box where it supports the rear of the tunnel and cut a little off the side of the passenger floorboard.


http://www.expeditionlandrover.info/LR.images/Gearbox.jpeg

If you are going to install an Iron Duke, may I suggest a GM gearbox such as the SM465. You should be able to find off the shelf components for a GM 4 cyl engine and there are adapters available for the Dana-18 transfercase. http://www.novak-adapt.com/catalog/kit_462.htm

Before you start ripping things out here's the basics about what's there:

The engine is factory rated at 70 HP @ 4000 RPM & 120lbft @ 2000 RPM. It is easily modifiable to about 90 hp with a Rochester carb, shaving the head to 9:1 compression, a 2.5L LR cam and going up one diameter on the exhaust tubing. A full out performance engine using a lot of expensive parts from the UK will get you about 115 HP. The engine weighs about 450 lbs and you can expect something in the neighborhood of 15 MPG highway.

The gearbox is an updated version of an early 1930's design. They are reliable up to around 160lbft of torque. Beyond there you might consider wing nuts on the mounting bolts. The Series III version is an all syncro box. The box tends to die early if someone tends to shift quickly. You want to hesitate a little at the middle of the 'H' to help the syncros work with minimal strain. These gearboxes work OK with GM iron Duke engines and 200tdi engines from early 1990's Defenders (about 30 MPG highway).

The transfercase is about as strong as any transfercase on the market. It is stronger than a Dana-18. About the only way you can kill one is to run it out of oil. Then a new set of bearings & gasket kit gets it running again. But no one make adapters for them that allows them to be bolted to US gearboxes.

The 88 rear propshaft is quite short. You don't want to do anything to make it shorter.

Series Rovers use 10 spline axles except for the Salisbury (Dana 60 built under license). The 10 spline rears break easily. Thankfully Land Rover has full floating axles. Your easiest solution would be to contact Bill at Great Basin Rovers and order an ARB locker set up for 24 splines, and a set of 24 spline rear axles. Front 10 spline axles seldom break with a LR 2.25L engine. 24 spline upgrades are VERY expensive.

Your easiest engine power upgrades are the 200tdi from a Defender or a Rob Davis engineered GM 4 cyl. Both use the series gearbox.

Anyway, that should be enough to start you started on the upgrade process.

[Ruffin' It]

I'm an avid Rover lover - but I'm also a realistic one. Someday I very much hope to own a Series II with a Toyota diesel in it. It just seems like a win-win to me. I know there are a lot of people out there who would nash their collective teeth at the thought of swaps and I get that. I recently spent over $5,000 totally rebuilding my MG's engine when a Mazda 1.8 swap would have cost about the same, offered a lot more power, and would be more reiable. As long as you aren't putting a Chevy 350 in the Rover, I don't see a problem. :)


Let's be honest- I'm coming from a Jeep background, so nothing is too sacred to swap out or modify for me, with the exception of the body (which is the only reason I really want the vehicle- the looks). I understand that is heresy in the Rover world, but I'm not in the resto mindset. First and foremost I want a vehicle that won't leave me stranded in the woods, since being stranded up here is a serious matter.

I'll sleep on it for a week or so and maybe then go over and take a gander at it. No use in rushing into another money pit based on a passing fancy.

[dieselcruiserhead]

Reminds me of my old Series III 88 when I bought it.. It had been sitting for about 15 years, had a blown transmission. I think I bought it for $1000 or thereabouts. Once I replaced the transmission ran like a top... I loved that car but inevitably the frame did start going out and I had to sell it rather than repair it. I loved that truck..

My vote is try to get it running first.. May actually save you some money rather than a trime consuming and honestly expensive engine swap even if done cheaply... When I went to Nepal, the tour operator we were riding with in the jungle had a Series IIA 109 that they were taking us around in, that they had found in a swamp. It had been under water for 10 years... Cleaned it out, obviously did some extensive engine work, but it ran great! It is more expensive than American counterparts but not so much more that it would require a swap if you ask me. It is also a decent setup (and IS reliable in my opinion) if you plan to use the Rover for town mostly and/or don't mind going 50 mph. It is in the 80's when Rovers started getting electronic that they started losing their reputation for relability IMO. The Series rovers are "weak" but are generally reliable if you don't put them through hell...

If the engine is shot then perhaps it might be worth the swap. If the trans is shot, swapping one of those with the completely removable floor is possibly one of the easiest transmission to swaps to do, I did it in an evening, it was very quick and easy...

[Ruffin' It]

If you are replacing the front seats, check out Fiero seats. They are fairly comfy and have speakers in the headrests so you can actually hear your music. Just a thought.

[Mercedesrover]

I know it's heresy, but if the frame is more or less sound I'm going to look at replacing the engine/drivetrain with something... um... less leaky. I haven't decided yet, but a GM Iron Duke (2.5L I-4) backed by a T-18 and a Spicer 18 sounds interesting. There are others that I'm looking at, but that looks to be the cleanest install with the least amount of hassle/overall expense. I need to do some measuring to see if the package is feasable, and a lot of this depends on the condition of the stock drivetrain/engine. The axles will probably stay stock, but I may look at better shafts in the future. One step at a time. I'd love an overdrive transmission or a modern fuel-injected engine, but the parts just don't seem to line up right when it comes to adapters, lengths, and component strength. If it was a 109 this wouldn't be an issue, but I have to be practical- especially on my budget.

You mentioned a drivetrain conversion and a budget in the same paragraph. :)

Get it home, get it cleaned up, get it running and see what you've got before you get too ambitious.

jim

[Alaska Mike]

I'm seriously thinking about the Toyota 22RE/W56/RF1A, but the length issues in an 88 are pretty significant, not to mention that the axles (at least the rear one) would have to be swapped out because of the centered rear diff. I'm also looking at sticking with a spring-under configuration to keep it somewhat low and steady. Here's the link for that Series I Toyota swap (thanks for reminding me):

http://www.4wdandsportutility.com/features/rover/0611_4wd_1957_range_rover/index.html

I was also looking at the GM 151/NV3550/Spicer 18 combo, which would require a few adapters to make work. I could also sub a SM465 for the NV3550, giving me a low 1st and probably eliminating an adapter, but I would lose the overdrive. The upside of this is that the tranny-transfercase combo should be about 20" shorter than the Toyota set (from the numbers I've seen).

The guy at Advance adapters suggested a Chevy V8 or V6 conversion (requires a little bulkhead work) coupled to a Land Cruiser H55F, then upgrading the axles to handle the extra power. I might go with a V6/SM465/Spicer 18 combo as a comprimise.

I don't know. This is all in the planning stage and most routes are going to cost me some money. Should be fun until the bills come...

[Alaska Mike]

I really want to thank everyone for their suggestions and comments. I'm really excited about starting a new major project after years of doing minor things to my CJ-5. I feel like I have a blank slate and all kinds of options to explore.

The Rover comes home tomorrow night (hopefully) and I'll really be able to start prioritizing my projects. Just clearing out all of the stuff in the passenger compartment will give me a clearer idea of what I'm in for.

Hmmmm... perhaps a Chevy V-6/NV3550/Dana 20 combo with Toyota axles...

[Alaska Mike]

After much pain and heartache, the Rover is home. Getting it out of the woods and through the snow and up on the trailer took 4 hours over two days of tugging, and my friend's truck died just as we got the Rover safety on my driveway and had to get it towed. Oh well, at least it's home.

Now the fun begins. I'll probably do some crawling around tomorrow and see what's what.

[TeriAnn]

Here's the link for that Series I Toyota swap (thanks for reminding me):

http://www.4wdandsportutility.com/features/rover/0611_4wd_1957_range_rover/index.html


I bought that issue of the magazine because of the LR on the cover. I would have liked the article a lot more if the writer had not taken such a deriding attitude toward Land Rovers. I suggest that you do not copy his power steering conversion. The Scout II power steering box is a much better solution. If you end up with a V engine you will want to convert just to move the steering box location.

Next time you talk to Advance adapters ask them about the Orion transfercase. From the specs it has a usable front & rear offset.

[ShearPin]

Hey congrats - you'll find it hard not to smile when your driving a Series Rover. I run a 1973 Series III SWB myself.

I know it's been mentioned before - if you can get the Rover mechanicals running without putting to much money into them I'd suggest giving them a try. I am no purist but leaks and all they are simple and tough. On long tracks the Rover gearset and torque down low motor are happy all day long. Over the years I've upgraded with Great Basin axles, Rocky Mountain parabolics, and most recently the Rocky Mountain overdrive. The overdrive gives a happy 55 mph cruise - up from 45.

With this combo I've crossed the states a few times, numerous Mexico runs, Belize and Guatemala.... While most trips have been problem free the ones that weren't provide the best stories. With a Rover I've always felt the mechanicals were a big part of their charm....


Henry
www.4x4freedom.com

[Alaska Mike]

TeriAnn-
I just wanted to let you know that I've found your site to be an incredible resource for tech and inspiration. Keep up the good work.

When I do a power steering conversion (won't be in Phase I from the looks of it), the Scout conversion is really the only one I'm considering. Saginaw system conversions are something I've done before, and the information on your page will certainly take a lot of the guesswork out of it.

The more I look, the more a I-4 swap looks like the way to go, specifically the GM 4-151. I've located one in a junkyard near me in a '81 CJ that looks to be rebuilt. They aren't very popular with the Jeep crowd, and I can find other examples in all sorts of Pontiac and AMC vehicles (the AWD AMC Eagle was VERY popular here). I think using the Robert Davis bolt-on motor mounts will work well here.

From there, a SM465 will probably get the nod. It should bolt up without any major adapters (thanks for reminding me) and while I entertained the idea of a 5 speed for highway performance, the granny 1st will help overcome the 4-151's relative lack of horsepower and torque offroad at slow speeds. The Novak adapter is the shortest available, so it will probably get used to adapt a Spicer 18. I still haven't worked out the transmission/transfercase mounting, but that should be easy enough to sort out.

The axles will stay stock for the moment, although I may look at upgrading the rear in the future to a stronger rear axle and front disc brakes. That will have to wait until Phase II, when steering, suspension, and axles will be addressed. Until then, I'll just have to carry a spare set of shafts for the rear.

My goal is to have a fairly bulletproof drivetrain so I don't have to work on it constantly. I just don't have the time anymore.

I looked into the Orion, but once again driveline length and cost put the brakes on the plan. The 3:1 low of the Orion isn't all that much better than the 2.46:1 low of the Spicer 18, and parts availability for the Spicer is much better.

Thanks for the advice.
-Mike

[Alaska Mike]

Henry-
I've had my share of "mechanical adventures" with my CJ-5. Ask Scott Brady about the time the motor mounts broke on his M38A1 and my SR-4 transmission gave up the ghost on the same trip, so I ended up towing him out in second gear. What was usually a 45 minute drive home somehow became much longer. I've lost an axle shaft on the highway hours from home, tweaked springs on the Rubicon... My fun meter is pegged.

The engine is missing a few parts (brackets and such) and has shop rags stuffed in the carb and plug holes. A previous owner (4x4 shop owner) worked on it a while before deeming it beyond economical repair. Even if I was willing to make the investment to get it running, it would still be a dog on the highway. Most trails up here involve an hour drive at 65 MPH to a trailhead, and right now I don't have a tow rig (doesn't count unless you drive it there and back).

Your own accounts of rebuilding and replacing transmissions leads me to believe that I might want to upgrade while I'm in there. As a father of 3, I don't have the time anymore to wrench for days in a stretch. The wife would kill me. The transfer case seems like a decent unit, but without adapters it's a boat anchor to me. The Spicer 18 is a proven unit and has a similar offset to the stock Rover unit.

So, while I'd love to make a few minor tweaks and drive it, I really think the current engine/drivetrain would nickle and dime me to death without ever really performing as I need it to. I'm not looking for monster HP, but reliability and functionality are prime considerations for me- within a budget.

The funny thing is, I'll probably leave the seats and interior as near to stock as practical. I love the simplicity of the layout and the spartan look of the vehicle.

Thanks for the advice, and the pictures and articles on your website have been invaluable.
-Mike

[ShearPin]

Mike

I've got a 1 year old now myself - I am feeling the wrench time pinch. I wasn't sure of the condition of your motor - figured if a carb and some plugs were all it needed it would be worth a try.

I hit some bad luck when I went looking for a rebuilt transmission in my first few years of ownership. The original was high mileage. I went through 3 in a matter of 6 months (two left puddles on the floor overnight after install before I'd put one mile on them). Just bad luck with bad rebuilds. Your right though, behind a 2.25 they are serviceable. Any more power and it would be stressed.

Good luck - look forward to rebuild photos.

Henry