tiger/mini-earthroamer >> advice on chassis

[parallax_ca]

hi, fairly new here
I am looking to build my own mini-earthroamer
Currently I have a Tiger/Provan RV body (the cabin replaces the truck box, complete with a cabover sleeping area). We have done the separate truck/camper and NOT to our liking (space, always concerned about separation etc.) It is mounted onto a 94 chev c250 3/4 ton 4wd gas automatic chassis

The ideal vehicle will be
1. diesel
2. 4wd
3.Be drivable by my wife (she can handle a fairly big vehicle >> just don’t want something that will tire us out 7 hours on the highway, or too hard to maneuver downtown)
4. Have worldwide availability of parts (well enough in case broken down it is fixable (i.e. Cummins vs. a powerstroke, that kind of thing)
5. Can go “anywhere” >> now my definition of anywhere is NOT Antarctica!!. Rather tour North and South America, go down most roads, some off-road but not serious rock/dune/mud crawling. Rather lets go down this forest trail or this semi-open road, or to the beach etc.

so... what I plan on doing is modifying the tiger by either
1. update the current chassis or
2. flip the rv or rv and truck cab (since they are "glued" together) onto another chassis

I have read about the torsion mounting systems but the way I figure this is no different than a full size 4wd van with a continuous body, just a bit taller

and I don't expect to do serious rock./dune/beach/mud crawling >> just want to go off the beaten track a bit!!

so I am watching the eco-roamer as well
I want to have a smaller footprint (physically as well as resources wise (this IS a used RV and I would LOVE to buy a used chassis > impact already done!)


2 options at this point are
1. buy a ford f550 (get four wheel disc brakes, manual shifter for 4wd (have and the electric and issues), more than 1ton capacity, but... I would only get an older one with the 7.3l powerstroke (have own non-turbo, only injector, starter issues, and relatively inexpensive (duramax is OUT, 1k for ONE injector is insane, much as I LOVE the allison and the NVH levels!)
then I would flip the RV body over
2. buy an existing chassis >> have considered the "baddest surburban " listed in the want ads but not getting any advice except don't >> need a why so I can lay that option to rest >> this is ideal in sense I can flip the cabin and cab as a unit, just pop it on (same wheelbase)

Cummins seems the best domestic full size pickup diesel (that is all I drive from a smart convertible, a vw beetle, a vw passsat, have owned ford superduty 6.0l crewcab 3/4ton powerful but worried about that sick I mean six litre issues)

well .... any comments??

the goal of this expedition is not just "let's see the world" (or more of it) but let's set up camp and see what we can do here kind of thing >> I don’t know where this might lead and it is a long term goal in the end (not this year!) think "missions" but in our "backyard" (don't have to go to Indonesia to help people >> go to Louisiana for 2-3 months!! or more!)

my build will be more focused on >> flip the body, NOW let's get this thing working tight >>> kind of "earthroamer"
1. all diesel appliances (ONE fuel is the goal)
2. some sort of water filtration system (there are 10k systems that will purify a small community water needs in a day! like on the explorer RV
3. other stuff like that >> it will have 2 bikes and 2 kayaks on it for "other exploring, the idea of an "uplink" for a "portable library resource" (there is a net site on that too.
4. tools of sorts (think let's build a school in Bolivia (been doing that remotely through connections (i.e. monetarily), let's do it actually (I am an architect by trade, crazy megalomaniacs that they are!)
5. single rear wheel (do not want the hassles of duallys off road and in snow)
6. something unique but NOT "hey look at me, i have more than you!!", rather, hi, here i am, what needs to be done (a "light work camp" as well as a portable home)

yes I may be crazy but I have a dream too >> to travel AND help

sorry for getting sidetracked

so.... any comments on a chassis given the tiger as a cabin (typically the cobblers' kids have no shoes and I learned earlier, I have NO time for major builds like the eco-roamer, >> been there done that (or did not do that >> was going to make a "fun" travel car for the family >> such as a 57 Buick caballero wagon on a modern drivetrain >> sold it instead and bought a 92 Buick roadmaster, a great car (since basically a truck chassis!!) the memories were more important than the vehicle

so... I do NOT want to spend tons of time building the vehicle if I can just buy and modify something >> I know, not purist but being realistic >> I know what I can and cannot do, and what resources I have available to do custom work and frankly I do not want to have a 50k vehicle I am worried all the time about >> 30-40k max should do it

thoughts, comments, raspberries at my craziness???

Gord in the great white north (Canada)
:)

[ntsqd]

First idea that comes to mind is a '96 CTD pick-up of the appropriate wheel base.
My logic is simple:
> Last of the mechanically injected 6BT's
> Coil front suspension
> Those have trans issues, would suggest looking into the Allison used in delivery trucks coupled with a divorced t/c. Not much different than the D-Max Allison, except stand-alone.

Others might have more input on whether that is a good choice or not.

[explore this]

hi, fairly new here
(duramax is OUT, 1k for ONE injector is insane, much as I LOVE the allison and the NVH levels!)

This is grossly off. Dmax injectors are covered for 200k miles through model year '03 and do not cost anywhere near that amount per injector. Check out the Diesel Place for more accurate info... Dmax+Allison is an awesome drivetrain! http://www.dieselplace.com

[Doin_It]

How's this look?

[VikingVince]

Gord in Canada,

Read your post a couple times...lotta stuff there...I don't have much to offer you in terms of what you want to build...not quite my expertise, especially taking your Tiger cabin off its current chassis and transferring to it some other chassis. But from reading your criteria for Ideal Vehicle...the only thing you don't have with your current Tiger is diesel, right?...especially since you're not overly concerned with isolating the torsional forces of chassis articulation from being transferred into the cabin. And the Tiger is only 19 feet long...but you want a smaller footprint than that in an expedition vehicle? I think that would limit you to the Sportsmobile or the new Earthroamer Jeep or a full size truck with a Four Wheel Camper.

I would really be interested though in your experiences with your Tiger CX...what year is it and how many miles have you put on it? How has it worked out for you? Have you had any significant problems with it? How has it held up? etc etc. I've had my eye on the Tiger CX for several years...but it's still a motorhome....and they are not really designed to be taken off-road, other than mild unimproved surfaces, and even then washboarding would take its toll. But I'm still attracted to the Tiger CX as a small motorhome even with its limitations. However, Provan claims on it's website (with pics) that their design and means of attaching cabin to the framerails virtually eliminates frame flex...I doubt it. But have you taken your Tiger offroad and subjected it to any uneven terrain? Has anything broken, cracks in the cabin shell? Provan is now offering the Tiger on the Ford 350 4x4...that would be my choice. Thanks and good luck.

[parallax_ca]

ntsqd >> firstly i love the duramaxx too, quiet and smooth but INSTALLED, the injectors i get quotes for 800 to 1000 each (the injectors are somehow down in the head, vs out like a spark plug on cummins and powerstroke
and regardless of that, a used duramaxx is either very pricey OR high mileage (ie out of warranty) and frankly i intend to keep the truck longer than 200k (i put 90k km on my passast diesel in less than 18 months, just in business and living 20 minutes from anywhere!) remember i am in canada so prices are generally higher (though our dollar is flying high!)

doin_it >>the image of the van is what says to me that why can't a tiger go offroad >> the sportsmobiles do it and they are one long body just like the tiger, mounted onto the frame and no torsional connection, same with that image.
i have had a 4wd van and frankly i do NOT like its center of gravity, hence why the truck and that a truck cna be modified much easier, serviced easier, NVH levels lower (engine is outside the cab!!), etc.

re the tiger in general (viking vance , et al) >>
i do NOT want to start an argument of how FAR offroad or how DEEP, just that it is capable more than any other typical class a or c

anyway, i have not owned my tiger long enough to know its physical limitations, just that i will be beefing it up

i know my own time limitations and putting a cummins into the 3/4 ton chassis, will put too much weight on an to the limit chassis to begin with
(and i do not want to spend the time to do that, when there are vehicles out there already that have the "engineering" done >> then i cna focus on the "otehr stuff" i want/need to do to the truck

so if i have to beef up the chassis anyway, why not flip the body as a unit ??
considering the comments on that cummins suburban, i have yet to hear WHY it is not a good chassis >> it has the pre electronics cummins, not an allison tranny, but everything else seems beefed up >> and hey torsional twisting >> it too is a long body >> i am not climbing rocks!!

so i hope someone can educate me on WHY the burb chassis is not good (or is good ) vs. flipping to a dodge chassis (i will never get to doing it all, i spend more time with people than on vehicles these days, got rid of my car collection (still doing so) over this past year specifically to focus on life not cars so ultimately i want to do something simple if possible

re: the dodges >> so hard to find SRW 1 tons, (3/4 tons easy, but not enough and have talked with contractors who have cracked the frames on 3/4 ton dodge so 1 ton it should be regardless)

thanks for all the input, i WILL update >> picking up the tiger in jan at xmas 9less than 2 months away!) since importing from US and had to wait until 15 years old to the month!! so she is in storage on th US side of the border

being an architect, i intend to take apart the tiger to some degree and hope to look at the connection cab to cabin >> realtive to most rvs (including the image shown with the van/cabin, they do build it alot stronger and better than the fibreglass ones (been there, done that) and i do NOT like the camper in the bed (don;t even go there! bad experiences with idiot suppliers really soured me >> happier when all one unit (no different than towing, easier on a ramp truck/ back of bed than on a trailer

thx
gord

[parallax_ca]

i am so long winded !!
forgot to mention, not after a smaller footprint than the tiger (since it is basically a truck with a camper size wise) it is a great size for us.
so the jeep one is out (WAY too much, just like the earthroamer)
and the truck/camper is out (been there done that, talk about torsional twisting i do NOT like that! and that was barely offroad oy!!) and poptops suck from a camping point of view (even the turtle expedition and the 1st earthroamers commented on that )
to each his own though, not dissing, just saying not OUR cup of tea!
so... if you were to place the tiger body on another chassis, would you use this cummisn suburban by avalanche engineering or anohter and why

avoiding the 08 fords, to service engine requires lifting the cab >> hard to do when attached to the cabin!!

also, nothing past 07 (not just price, but these should ONLY use the ultra low sulphur fuel >> go to mexico or south america, and you will screw your engine

must be 1 ton, diesel, 4wd, parts easy to get (though not a major issue in this day and age), 131 inch wheelbase

anyone have anything like that for sale?
(ah toyota, etc. if only your diesels were for sale here!! (have a 91 jeep mitsubishi diesel litearlly a cj3b (mash jeep) and it is great (over 15 years old! from japan, no rust, barely any mileage) but that is off topic!!
gord

[explore this]

ntsqd >> firstly i love the duramaxx too, quiet and smooth but INSTALLED, the injectors i get quotes for 800 to 1000 each (the injectors are somehow down in the head, vs out like a spark plug on cummins and powerstroke
and regardless of that, a used duramaxx is either very pricey OR high mileage (ie out of warranty) and frankly i intend to keep the truck longer than 200k (i put 90k km on my passast diesel in less than 18 months, just in business and living 20 minutes from anywhere!) remember i am in canada so prices are generally higher (though our dollar is flying high!)



I'm not trying to start a pi$$ing match, but you're pumping incomplete/inaccurate info.

Injectors can be had for $250-300 a piece (with a $100 core charge if you don't give returns back)(these guys are high http://www.dynomitediesel.com/display_part/264.php). Labor is a good 10-15 hours. If someone is quoting you $8,000 for injectors USD you should find a better source.

LB7 Duramax has injectors under the valve covers (aka the crankcase can fill with fuel if an injector goes bad)
LLY, LBZ, LMM Duramax have injectors out in the open (like spark plugs) (no fuel in the crankcase)

[haven]

I don't know if Tiger used this construction technique in the past, but today they weld a number of steel cross members to the truck chassis to act as the platform for the camper. The camper is bolted to these cross members and to the truck cab with 17 heavy duty bolts. Eight additional bolts hold the camper to the truck cab.

http://www.tigermotorhomes.com/images/Steel-floor-framing.jpg

It will be a challenge (lots of careful measurements needed) to re-create the chassis mounts on another truck frame.

Chip Haven

[VikingVince]

I don't know if Tiger used this construction technique in the past, but today they weld a number of steel cross members to the truck chassis to act as the platform for the camper. The camper is bolted to these cross members and to the truck cab with 17 heavy duty bolts. Eight additional bolts hold the camper to the truck cab.

http://www.tigermotorhomes.com/images/Steel-floor-framing.jpg

It will be a challenge (lots of careful measurements needed) to re-create the chassis mounts on another truck frame.

Chip Haven

Chip,

Tiger (Provan) claims that the above design virtually eliminates frame flex. (thereby, I suppose, "vitually eliminating" torsional forces being transferred into the cabin). What do you think?...Effective?

Not trying to hijack your thread, Gord...but it's actually very related to your build questions/ideas.

[parallax_ca]

1. to close down the duramax issue >> it seems i was misinformed (this info came from someone who owns a duramaxx and had to do this very thing, but hey, whatever ) short story is NO duramaxx (there is a reason why the powerstroke/international and cummins engines are in teh big trucks but not the duramaxx) regardless , cummins or pwoerstroke is my route (injectors at 50 a pop is easier to swallow) >> so... comments on THOSE engines?

2. re the frame/mounting system >> once the truck is here i will see the challenges >> easiest solution i figure is keep the cabin to cab conenction form provan and flip cab and cabin as a unit since those cross members are accessible. torsional stuff >> this is why i think the tiger is no different than a full size 4wd van >> one LONG body on the frame >> so it should act alot like a converted van body like sportsmobile etc. >> remember i am NOT doing major offroading, just want to be able to go where the "real" rvs cannot (hence the smaller footprint than the eco-roamer or other units at class a size (nothing against eco-roamer or earthroamer for that matter, just not the thing to take into towns, back roads etc EASILY

so..... let's say i can overcome the connection issues >> i am looking at a 1ton chassis diesel automatic >> what should i consider >> and what about that cummins suburban , the comment not to buy from another lister has no weight without explanation, and i AM trying to learn!! help?? i hope that lister will reply with the why so i can understand
thanks to all

[explore this]

1. to close down the duramax issue >> it seems i was misinformed (this info came from someone who owns a duramaxx and had to do this very thing, but hey, whatever ) short story is NO duramaxx (there is a reason why the powerstroke/international and cummins engines are in teh big trucks but not the duramaxx) regardless , cummins or pwoerstroke is my route (injectors at 50 a pop is easier to swallow) >> so... comments on THOSE engines?


Hey, I'm just trying to help you out with the misinformation. If you want to close it down then stop pumping it:
Powerstroke injectors: $245 a piece: http://www.dynomitediesel.com/display_part/250.php
Cummins injectors: $387 a piece:
http://www.dynomitediesel.com/display_part/230.php

Cummins has been great, but mated only to the ZF. Auto has been garbage. Can't comment on the new

PStroke: 7.3 have heard great and reliable, but grossly underpowered in comparison (Edit: To the new gens of engines out)
6.0 many, many nightmares, but some swear by them, only to see it's life cycle was VERY brief
Can't comment on the new

Duramax: on version 4 of the same platform. first gen have had known issues with the Bosch injectors, but not a problem with the recent and mated to an Allison 1000... The current leader in HP and torque of the light duty diesels.

You're talking light duty truck engines. The duramax 6600 is available up to a 5500 series truck, just like the IH and Cummins light duty engines (misinfo...). If you want a true medium duty truck then yes you can go with a ISU 6H, Cat C7, or Cummins ISB. Then you can have the big boy Allison 2000-3000s.

I've always liked this site for the lack of bashing and wildly distorted info, lets get back to that...

[Bella PSD]

PStroke: 7.3 have heard great and reliable, but grossly underpowered in comparison

I've always liked this site for the lack of bashing and wildly distorted info, lets get back to that...

Not sure on the underpower comment.

5.9L ISB 6 speed in 2002
245 hp at 2700 rpm
505 ft lbs TQ

7.3L (T 444E) 6 speed in 2002
Horsepower 275-hp @ 2,800 rpm
Torque 520 lbs.-ft. @ 1,600 rpm

LLY DMAX 2004
The valve covers were scalloped to allow access to the injectors without having to remove the valve covers, saving labor costs if injector replacement was needed, and preventing fuel from entering the crankcase, causing oil dilution. Killer HP of 310 HP in 2004

Louie

[explore this]

Not sure on the underpower comment.

5.9L ISB 6 speed in 2002
245 hp at 2700 rpm
505 ft lbs TQ

7.3L (T 444E) 6 speed in 2002
Horsepower 275-hp @ 2,800 rpm
Torque 520 lbs.-ft. @ 1,600 rpm

LLY DMAX 2004
The valve covers were scalloped to allow access to the injectors without having to remove the valve covers, saving labor costs if injector replacement was needed, and preventing fuel from entering the crankcase, causing oil dilution. Killer HP of 310 HP in 2004

Louie

Agreed, "underpowered in comparison" was to current Dmax specs of 365hp and 660lb torque and PSD of ???. A 30% difference. Certainly the 7.3 can hold it's own, it has proven that and as I said has a good rep from all I know and have witnessed. How much do you really need... It becomes pointless at some stage and is just PR fodder.

[Bella PSD]

PStroke: 7.3 have heard great and reliable, but grossly underpowered in comparison
.

Ok, if you were comparing the 7.3 to the 6.4L powerstroke or the newer DMAX, then yes...somewhat under the new ones. But your post leads me to think you were comparing the 7.3 to what was available when the 7.3L was new. When you compare the Diesel engines from 2002, the DMAX has a small, 25 HP advantage on paper and the 7.3L torque is equal to the DMAX. The ISB is down on both TQ and Hp in that year.

OK, not going any further with this! Just wanted to get this straight in case someone comes along and reads it and takes it as gospel, and then you end up with “wildly distorted info”. Below are the facts on the 02 model year Diesel engines. Nothing personal, just wanted to get that straight.



Dmax 2002 LB7 (auto only...I think)
300 hp
520 torque

7.3L (T 444E) 6 speed in 2002
275 hp
520 torque

5.9L ISB 6 speed in 2002
245 hp
505 TQ

[explore this]

Ok, if you were comparing the 7.3 to the 6.4L powerstroke or the newer DMAX, then yes...somewhat under the new ones. But your post leads me to think you were comparing the 7.3 to what was available when the 7.3L was new. When you compare the Diesel engines from 2002, the DMAX has a small, 25 HP advantage on paper and the 7.3L torque is equal to the DMAX. The ISB is down on both TQ and Hp in that year.

OK, not going any further with this! Just wanted to get this straight in case someone comes along and reads it and takes it as gospel, and then you end up with “wildly distorted info”. Below are the facts on the 02 model year Diesel engines. Nothing personal, just wanted to get that straight.



Dmax 2002 LB7 (auto only...I think)
300 hp
520 torque

7.3L (T 444E) 6 speed in 2002
275 hp
520 torque

5.9L ISB 6 speed in 2002
245 hp
505 TQ


Again, spot on.

[parallax_ca]

did not mean to get everyone upset, to each his own
the information is great
i am looking at older vehicles so that is why i am hesitant on the Dmax (don;t want to spedn 40-60k on a truck when i can get a simpler one (ie repair on the road) for much less and spend the money on the CHASSIS

so... to continue this thread
commetns on 1 ton chassis, axles, upgrades etc. presume i know nothing (better that way than to show my ignorance!!) (frame, suspension, steering, axles, etc. etc. >> how does one determine what will fit their needs and where to spend the money (you can lift all you want but for what reason, that sort of thing)


thanks to all
gord

[N8URE2]

Not to hijack this thread, but do you have any mor info on the vehicle pictured in post #4?

[VikingVince]

Not to hijack this thread, but do you have any mor info on the vehicle pictured in post #4?


I'm quite sure that's a Bigfoot motorhome. They are supposedly considered to be among the better quality constructed motorhomes...but still a motorhome, nonetheless.

[Carlyle]

Bigfoot makes a quality truck camper and rv, I considered one as well, but they are so darn high.. I met a fellow traveler in Loreto, Baja Sur a couple years ago in a Bigfoot rv and he was going anywhere he wanted to go and dry camping for two weeks straight. No you can't do technical 4x4 in them, but truly who does enough of that to justify serious $ off road mods. I know my wife would kill me if I broke all the dishes trying to do things our camper shouldn't... Truly, at least for me, 98% of your driving will be on roads a beer truck can go over, which in Mexico is all of them, so build it for comfort and use a little driving skill to get to your destination if it's rough.

BTW, isn't the 2006 PSD available in non ultra low sulpher and 6.4?

[Doin_It]

Not to hijack this thread, but do you have any mor info on the vehicle pictured in post #4?


All I know is what you see...I got that picture of a wheel/tire site that just had a bunch of pics of trucks they had put tires on.

[Ironduff]

I'm a newbie here, myself. I own a late-model Tiger CX, which I am totally happy with. But my use for it is far from the intent of this board :) . I just use as a class B that won't get stuck when I venture off the paved roads... a highly mobile apartment, sort of. I've been to the factory a few times (outside Columbia, SC), both for a pre-buy look-see, the big buy, and minor warranty work.

What I think I know about the cab-coach joint.... I think you need to separate them before attempting to remove the coach. I doubt that you could hold the whole thing straight, and it's not _that_ strong a joint. I don't think it's particularly weak, but that's not an area where you'd want to put _any_ up-down or side to side loading without the support of the chassis.

From what I know about current Tigers... Start by removing the side trim in the space between the cab & coach and in the sides of the cut-out in the cab roof (obviously added in conversion, just held by screws under trim caps). This should give you sccess to the screws holding the overcab portion (in roof) and a start on accessing the screws holding the coach front to the cab back.

I'm returning to the factory later this winter to get a house battery update (pair of 6V underfloor), and some more little warranty items take care of. I _hope_ to be there when they mate a new coach to its chassis.... but that'll depend on luck.

HTH.

Jim

[VikingVince]

Ironduff (Jim),

Welcome to the forum...good to have you here. As far as I know, you're the only Tiger CX owner on the forum...and as I mentioned, I've had my eye on the Tiger for a number of years. I don't wanna hijack this thread, but I'd be interested in more of your experiences with your Tiger...although maybe not a hijack b/c certainly related to Gord's using it for his plans. I know you said you haven't subjected your Tiger to any torsional forces/twisting, but in general has it held up well...cabinets, water, heating,electrical systems etc?....big issue: any leaks? Your overall experience/impression/recommendation?

Are you part of the forum http://groups.msn.com/TigermotorhomeOwners
Lot of info there on owners' experiences...some good, some bad...with their Tigers. One guy, Joe (JMCHZN1), has lot of pics with his new Tiger CX on the 4x4 Ford 350 chassis doing some mild offroading in Moab. He says it's held up fine so far...but time will tell if he keeps subjecting to that, i.e. whether or not he gets cracks in the coach body, things breaking, etc. It just doesn't seem to be designed for that, although as a pic earlier in this thread shows, Provan claims they've virtually eliminated frame flex by welding steel tubing across the frame rails. What do you think? Anyone else have opinion on that?

[Ironduff]

Gord & Vince.... you'll find some of my photos in an album on the MSN Tiger owner's group.... mostly quieting the Onan, and some factory shots on 'how it's made' that may be useful.

Vince, one leak, which the factory has fixed, I think. Kind of tough to say, since we're having a serious more-than-summer-long drought. The bottom of the mattress got damp from a seam leak on the front at the bottom of the overcab area. Seems OK now.

Torsional rigidity... dunno. Just adding square tubing across the chassis won't help much... that's like adding rungs to a ladder and expecting it to take more twising load. _BUT_ I think that adding the whole camper makes it more rigid by quite a bit. That's like adding a light but big box on top of the ladder... Take a look at the factory pix in my album. The roof is tied on pretty well, and _should_ reinforce the frame below.

But as I say, my uses don't include such worries... I did more than enough serious off-roading in my younger days. I've been thru three Cornbinder Scouts, an FJ-40, a Baja Bug, two Foresters, and two Toyota p/u's... still got one each of the last two.

Jim

[86cj]

I just wondered what condition the 94' chassis is in? Does it only lack a diesel or is something wrong with it? (like rust)

Rebuilding the wear items and a diesel trans plant could be an option even with some labor costs. A newer diesel is big money.
That body style is very reliable, easy to work on and get parts for. It will hold up to your 4x4 ambitions.
(I know the IFS will break stories) I have had a 98' K3500 dually for 10yrs and a 12' Real lite camper for 20yrs.

A 94' GM body syle (not sure of production yrs) C-3500HD 2WD 15,000 GVW with the 19.5" wheels and straight beam front axle, swapped out for a dana 60 front axle would be a great set up, you could use your cab if is not rusted. A old style GM diesel is reliable but slow. (perfect for a Expo rig!!) Those trucks have a big gusset on the frame under the cab to box area also..............


I have given your very idea some thought, A class C has way more storage than my set up and I hate taking camper on and off. I would like to build a Explorer or Tiger type RV on my truck. I don't need it for a DD anymore.