The Gubblemobile- Series III from hell.

[Alaska Mike]

As I said in the Rover Fever thread, I bought this '73 Land Rover Series III SWB for $500 from a friend. I did a quick once-over, checking the frame at various points and looking at the bulkhead to see what was wrong. It doesn't run (shop rags stuffed in the spark plug ports and the carb) and it's missing a few engine parts, but it has a nice hard top and the body panels are in pretty good shape. Since I've always lusted after Series Land Rovers, I jumped at the chance. Foolish, foolish boy.
http://home.gci.net/~lf4w/images/Rover2.jpg
http://home.gci.net/~lf4w/images/Rover3.jpg
I started pulling it apart on Friday. The hardtop, tub, and floorpans came out easily, and I was really getting into the swing of things. Sure, I started noticing a lot of rust in spots on the frame, with a couple of the outriggers and the rear crossmember suffering from some serious cancer. I was seriously contemplating a galvanized frame anyway. I figure the rust I don't see is much worse than the rust that I do see. I don't like suprises- especially on the trail. I did the math on what the reapir pieces would cost, and an entire frame looks like a better option.

Then I got to the dash and the bulkhead, and things started to go seriously downhill. The channel that the windshield sits in rusted away on the passenger side, which then allowed water to enter the heater vents and start really doing some damage. That section is sealed up pretty tight, so I couldn't get in there to do an assessment of the overall carnage, but I'd say that there's a good chance the bulkhead is beyond repair. The door posts are starting to rust, and there are a couple other small sections that have a little too much ventillation. Time to look for a replacement- again beyond economical repair.

Just when I thought the worst was over, I find the front grill panel has cancer holes that were covered by the plastic Series III grill. Great.

Now I'm at the debating stage. So far my total investment is the initial purchase price and the time I spent so far taking it apart. I know of several people who want to buy parts off of this rig, which would recoup my purchase price plus a little more. Then I would just have to dispose of the carcass and begin again. However, there's this little voice inside the Rover that's calling to me to not give up and dive headfirst into the project. There's potential there. I can feel it.

So, I sit tonight in contemplation.

[Mercedesrover]

Sorry about the news. Pretty much what I expected you'd find.

From your previous post: With a bad frame and bulkhead you'll spend $5k in a heartbeat just getting it safe for the road. It just gets worse from there.

If a stockish 88" is what you're looking for, save up the bread and come down below and find one with a new, or at least decent frame. For $7k-$10k you can usually find yourself a pretty nice truck. Get the one up there for spares.

It's very easy to spend $10k rebuilding one of these trucks and you can spend $20k rebuilding one without too much effort too. Start talking about engine/drive train conversions and there goes another $5k. Trust me, I've been there. Heck, I'm there now! :)

If you've got patience, time and spare cash, sure, you can rebuild that truck. New frame, rebuild the bulkhead or buy a new Defender bulkhead and start from there. I'm building a 109 right now that is in worse shape than that truck. But again, it takes patience, time and cash....All in large amounts.

jim

[DaktariEd]

Bummer!
Sorry to hear about that.
Sounds like parting it out or a large cash investment are the only two really viable options right now.
All things considered, there are probably quite a few Series Rovers out there in much better shape that you will find with time.
Good luck, keep us posted.

http://www.bajataco.com/smileys/safari.gif

[xcmountain80]

Yeah I here ya we have 67 International Scout 800A and in the same boat though it ran when we bought it. I've started the parting out will dispose of the carcass, its very sad to say the least. She wants us to move forward in the restoration but I just don't see it. My brother is having a hard time letting go and says he can do it for $5k I know it will be more like $10k.

Aaron

[seriessearcher]

It will cost 3 times what you think
It will take three times as long
You will get 1/3 rd of what you put into it when you try and sell

That said I have an 88 and just purchased a basket case Dormobile. Which once I have in hand will join the expedition ranks here on this board with a build up story. No as custom as Jims as he has mad skills, but it should be fun.

There is a great website called Guns and Rovers which has had a few right ups on bulkhead repair. If you like I can find the posts, or just troll on there for a while getting ideas.

http://p200.ezboard.com/bgunsandrovers

Good luck eith way you go. It is a fun ride when you have a Series.

[Alaska Mike]

I'll probably do some pricing to get an estimate of what I'm looking at. I planning on a long-term project, and this certainly qualifies. We'll see...

This certainly isn't an investment. I generally keep my 4x4 vehicles for a long time (ask Scott). The original concept for the rig was a Rover body on a hodge-podge of more reliable/better performing parts. That hasn't changed. A quick, highball-ish estimate puts the rig in the range of $10,000-$12,000 when "complete" (what rig ever is?), which includes a galvanized frame, bulkhead, improved engine with a beefier drivetrain, cleaned-up interior, and a few other mods (power steering, upgraded axles...). I don't think that's out of line for a completely rebuilt Series rig, even with the non-standard parts.

Right now it's scheduled to be a two year project to get it back on the road, but that timeline could change depending how parts fall in line. I'm in no hurry, so I can wait for deals to fall into my lap. Still, the question is, is it worth it?

Thoughts?
-Mike

[seriessearcher]

Go to http://www.seriestrek.com/ to see what can be done. It sounds close to what you want, but maybe different parts.

[Roemer1]

Alaska Mike,

An old rusty rover is just a soul in need of saving. Breathing new life into a series is only a waste if you don't find any enjoyment along the way.

Of course, I have been there. Some times I fixed the rig and sometimes I didn't. I think I lost money every time regardless but some of the best times I remember were spent in the restoration.


Britt

[Alaska Mike]

I'm kinda in the "blank canvas" mindset right now. After the shock of just how corroded the bulkhead was wore off a bit, I started assessing where I was and where I wanted to be. If I can source a good bulkhead for a decent price, I can slowly start adding components over time. My creative side is seeing all kinds of possibilities, but my practical side is seeing bills and a lot of time wrenching, plus some heartache when things don't go well.

I don't know. Monday I'll start working the phones to see how these latest relevations affect my bottom line.

[Alaska Mike]

My weatherman is a liar.

Well, today and possibly the the next few months are a bust. I knew it was coming, but when I looked out the window, there it was- snow. Coming down in big flakes. Imagine that. In Alaska. Where's Al Gore when you need him? There's not much so far (about 6"), so hopefully it will stop soon so I can shovel the Rover off. At least I covered everything with tarps before it hit.

The tub is sitting off to the side on blocks, so I may decide to put the hardtop back on it to clear some space in the garage.

With current condtions, all that's left to do is dream and begin the slow process of aquiring parts. Yes, I'm leaning towards going through with this madness.

[kd_walmsley]

Mike,

If you are serious about putting your 88 together I will have a radiator grill panel and front apron panel for you in June. I am installing a larger diesel in my 109 this spring and going to a 90/110 hood and grill panel. My 109 grill and apron are in great shape, you will just need to cover the shipping. Sorry I can't help sooner.

Cheers,

Kevin

[Alaska Mike]

Kevin-
That would be awesome. I was wondering what to do about the front grill. Your timeframe is just about right, because the snow won't be off the Rover until late March, and I'll be stripping it to put stuff on the new frame as the snow recedes. If I'm lucky I'll be thinking about a new grill about that time.
-Mike

[TeriAnn]

Still, the question is, is it worth it?
Thoughts?
-Mike

Always lots of thoughts.

Sanity is a much overrated concept

Worth has many meanings only very few of which can be quantified.

If you are asking worth as defined by the amount of money that a buyer and seller both agree an object is worth, the answer is no. In the US the SIII with its big plastic instrument panel never seems to be quite as desirable and an earlier IIA with a metal instrument panel and the resale value of Series Land Rovers is on the decrease in North America. Toyota and Jeep are advertising off road capabilities while Land Rover North America is advertising taking Land Rovers to the Opera and driving within cities. New enthusiasts are going to the Jeeps & Toys.

If you are asking if the dreams and reality will be worth the effort and money you sink into the vehicle? Only you can answer that and sometimes only after a decade or two. Anything you do will likely have teething issues that will cause frustrations while you locate and fix them. So much of that is attitude. If you end up blaming the vehicle for any problem you encounter, then no it will not be worth the effort. If you face issues as a blameless opportunity for making the vehicle even better suited to your particular needs, it will likely be worth it. In the long run. So much depends upon attitude and the value you place upon dreams and memories.

I am deeply indebted to my Land Rover for all the memories and I still owe mine more than the money and effort I have put into her during the last 29 years. For me the value is in nontangibles built up over decades.

I guess it depends upon a mix of how much of a dreamer you are and how practical you are. My personal belief is that reality is what you make of it. Dreams and memories are among my most valued possessions.

BTW, check Wise Owl in BC to see if they have a used bulkhead in reasonable shape. SII through Defender can be made to fit. If you are doing a gearbox & powerplant swap you might be better off importing a Defender bulkhead, tunnel and floorboards from a UK wrecking yard. Most American gearboxes are wider than a Series gearbox and the Defender bulkhead's indentation for the rear of the engine will give you more options without cutting. Don't forget there have been a lot of Land Rover variants made over the last 50 years since the SII was introduced and most all the parts are bolt on or close to it.

[Alaska Mike]

I've discovered that Series bulkheads are quite rare in the states, although I'm trying to source one from British Northwest. I was hoping for a Series IIA bulkhead (much less junk), but they are waaaaaaayyyyy more expensive and rare. They're going to look at what they have in the yard and possibly send me a sound upper bulkhead that I can repair/modify at will.

The other option is to pull my existing bulkhead off and start cutting and welding. Since I don't require it to be original, I can get creative with the dash. It would take a lot of work, but it may be the cheapest option. It would have to be media blasted or tanked to see what what was left.

A Defender bulkhead would be an interesting proposition, but not particularly viable in my situation. It was going to be almost $4000 to purchase and ship a Defender bulkhead to Alaska from the UK- sight unseen.

The real goal here is to get a structurally sound bulkhead that allows all of the original parts to be bolted on with some degree of alignment. Big concerns are the windshield and the doors. A good amount of the original or reproduction sheetmetal will have to be used, as I can't reproduce the more round lines. The interior can be done very simply with flat steel and square tube cage to emulate a Series II dash.

We'll see where the pricing falls.

[kd_walmsley]

Mike,

The parts are yours. Make sure to send me a reminder so I can get them packaged in a timely manner. Which "round lines" on the bulkhead do you expect to be challenging? Remember that most of your Landy is modular. I imagine that working in your garage will become very difficult if not heated. So if you have a strong marriage/patient significant other consider disassembling you 88 now and working on the sub-assemblies inside, through the winter, before it is under 3 meters of snow. Do you need manuals, etc...?

A friendly piece of advice I have often found helpful when working on my 109:

Thou shalt follow the Wisdom of the Green Rover and all repairs shall render unto thee new and fascinating challenges.

Cheers,

Kevin

[Alaska Mike]

I have two piles in my driveway/front yard. One is the rolling chassis with the bulkhead forward still on, the other is the tub and top, stuffed full of doors, seats, and all sorts of other junk. Both are covered by tarps (in true Alaska fashion).

I mentioned to the wife that I was considering parting the Rover out and looking for something else, and she told me not to do it. Not that she loves it (or really even likes it), but she knows that I would enjoy it as a project and a completed vehicle.

So, I guess a lot depends on how prices run. My existing bulkhead would require me getting a serious metal brake (length) and would take some serious work. The top of the bulkhead has me the most worried. If I can get a relatively easily repaired bulkhead for a decent price, my time and money might be better spent there. Again, we're talking functional, not resto.

The main part of this winter's work will be the bulkhead and frame- if I get that far. The rest can wait until it thaws. It waited this long, and it's probably protected better than it was before.

[Alaska Mike]

Well, the parts hoarding continues. The new frame and bulkhead are on their way. I picked up a Spicer 18 while I was down visiting the folks in Virginia. I have a SM465 waiting for me to pick it up. I'm also going to pick up an offset Dana 44 and Spicer 25 combo for cheap so I have a way to roll the new chassis around. Since they are probably better than the exisiting axles, I may run with them in the long run. We'll see. The snow has pretty much melted away, but I'm finding it hard to get enthusiastic about starting the real work right now. I'll keep picking up the pieces until I can make serious progress in one fell swoop before I start wrenching in earnest. No need to bust knuckles in cold weather for minimal accomplishments.

[Alaska Mike]

Well, since I was swapping everything else, why not the suspension? The old leaves are kinda saggy and rusted even without the body and top on. Imagine what it's like when it's loaded. I guess there's a reason is was sporting meaty P225/75 R15s. If I'm going to do it, I might as well do it (relatively) right the first time.

I had a set of stock springs on order from D.A.P. The plan was to do the TAW treatment on them. Then we found out shipping would have been more than the cost of the springs (around $600). Ouch. Free shipping offers (like the one from Rovers North) never seem to include Alaska.

The option of getting springs made locally was explored and discared. No need to redo the R&D, and the price wasn't all that different.

I'm looking at Rocky Mountain parabolics (2 leaf front/3 leaf rear) with OME shocks from Wise Owl right now, since their shipping should be a little less. A comfortable street ride (within the parameters of a leaf sprung vehicle) and moderate off-roading capability are my goals, and I think this set will do the job.

Of course, it's 14F today and tempertures are going to start dropping tonight, so I expect I will spend more time dreaming than wrenching.

[MuddyMudskipper]

This may be a shot in the dark, but you may want to try and contact Eric Zitzman from NorCal Relics for some parts as well. He is always bringing aircooled VWs over to England and bringing Rovers and stuff back. You can contact him via the Land Rover Repair Forums athttp://lrrforums.com/member.php?u=1356 or email him. eric@norcalrelics.com

[Alaska Mike]

MuddyMudskipper-
Thanks for the resource. Many of the Land Rover parts are being replaced for price and availability reasons (not to mention shipping), but there will be many Land Rover-specific parts that I will want to retain or replace to keep the overall appearance and functionality.

I just found a reliable and relatively cheap local source for Scout II Saginaw steering boxes, so that modification may happed sooner rather than later.

I also ordered the Spicer 18 rebuild kit and the adapters to mate it to a SM465 from Novak. A radiator is also on the way, as the old one looks a little crusty and more than a little dinged up.

You guys weren't kidding. My wallet is taking a beating, and I haven't even started bolting parts on yet.

[dieselcruiserhead]

There are two real philosophies, and one of them is an ignorance is bliss concept. You are only down because you know about bulkhead repairs and such and all the things it might "need..." I did the same exact thing, I bought an old SIII 88 that was my first and only real Rover that was completely mine (the 109 at my shop belongs to a friend). I was maybe 21, I'd/I've been lusting after Rovers my whole life...

It was a great old truck, sat about 20 years, shot frame and blown transmission. I bought it for $1400 from a guy in Woodstock New York, bought a trans for another $350 I think, the guy who I bought the Rover from had a decent shop and let me swap out the transmission the night I bought it. Half the fun of the trip was driving to western Buffalo in possibly the biggest snow storm I'd experienced in my life, it snowed about 4' of lake effect there, to buy the transmission. It was steam cleaned/immaculate, and would become the "nicest" part on the whole truck! The guy who sold me the transmission was a serious Rover enthusiast, had a gorgeous massive barn/shop devoted to Rovers only, and a gorgous Olive green IIA 88 that had he'd completely hand restored and probably the cleanest I've seen to this day...

Same thing, some holes in the bulkhead and some in the frame. Safe for the most part except in maybe a massive serious accident but regardless I would be in a series Rover so I never considered it a "safe" vehicle. I had my old Volvo that was my regular car but found the Rover became my daily driver for maybe 6 months easily... I started reading up on the Internet. Same thing, it got me down. I was in college so super poor college kid. So I did what I could.. Which was basically just run it... When I drove it and lived it, I loved it. When I was on the internet and read about all the work I would need to do to it (things I forgot about when I was driving it), I would get down..

And in the end, had an absolute blast.. I worked at a bar a few nights a week that consistently had a massive several-foot high snowpile in front of it.. Often this was the only "parking spot" available for blocks, so that is what I would do, park right on top of it :) Then one night (sounds cheezy) but in a drunken stupor I definitely got laid one night because of it :) (A girl from Westford, where RoversNorth is, who was in love with them for life I think!)... She lives out here in Utah now and we are still good friends...

Anyway, just run it if it is easily runable and won't take too much $$ to get going.. You don't need any gauges except for maybe oil pressure and temp, and you can source those at Autozone for $20!

And maybe use it for parts sometime or whatever, but consider it an adventure for now if you can get it running.. It is only $500... Even with the rest of the body shot, it can probably hardly get worse and as long as the frame is semi-decent/safe, then you are fine... The only real issue with rust holes is... Yu know other people might have cleaner Rovers! (but honestly, who cares. Ignorance is bliss!) :)

Then if you want to buy another later do it then and use this one for parts maybe.. Again these are work horses, I mentioned it in another thread but I spent time in a 109 in Nepal that had been underwater in a swap for many years.. And they pulled it out and it was what we were cruising around in... It was a real Rover, hopefully like yours can be... In most places the only places, the only "clean" Rovers are brand new ones!

My $.02!

[Alaska Mike]

I really considered going with the "run what ya brung" philosophy here. That's part of the Rover mystique. However, the practical side of me says the following:

I keep vehicles for longer than most people (15+ years for the CJ-5 so far)
The purpose of this vehicle is long-distance travel and moderate wheeling, and that means reliability is key
Consumable parts are hard to source up here, and expensive to ship
Hard parts are even more expensive to ship
The Rover engine is not known for being a powerhouse (a concern for long-distance, pavement travel)
Rover drivetrains are not known for holding in oil and keeping water out (a real concern on trails here)

I spent a lot of time and money on the Jeep making modifications and then redoing them later. It was part of the fun, but I don't know if I'm up for it anymore. The Jeep was a kind of rolling "what works" laboratory, and the results will help make the Rover into what I want.

It's obviously not a financial investment. It's more of a lifestyle investment. There are more practical/reliable/cheaper vehicles out there that I can get, but this was a chance to get into a vehicle that I've admired for years. I've always liked the looks and balance of a short wheelbase rig, so much so that I ignore the practical advantages of a bigger rig. I am aware, I just choose to disregard. I think that characteristic will be an asset in this project.

[MuddyMudskipper]

That's the spirit!

[Alaska Mike]

Whoo hooo! Just found a local source for Scout II steering parts. $100 for the steering box, pitman arm, pump, and steering shaft. Not too shabby. Even if I have to rebuild or replace a couple parts, I'll come out ahead of my original estimate.

The picture of what I want the rig to be is slowly coming together. My project "graduation" is a shakedown run up to Deadhorse or another northern town. The maybe a run down to Arizona to see Scott and play on some trails. Nothing definite, but a goal to work towards.

[dieselcruiserhead]

I always thought I was 109" or 110 material but I must say I absolutely loved and fell in love with my '88, one of the few SWB vehicles I absolutely loved. I love the look of the 4 door Rovers but my '88 was one of my favorite of all time... Here is a pic from deep in the hard drive...

When I bought it and resurrected...

[Alaska Mike]

Just picked up my SM465. I had forgotten just how big and heavy those suckers are. Good thing the engine I'm installing is about 100lbs lighter than the 2.25L, because this thing is beefy. Mayby not 100lbs more than the stocker, but it's certainly heavier. It's amazingly clean though, so some minor touch up, a few gaskets and seals, and the adapter should be all it requires.

As soon as Advance Adapters gets around to sending my order, I should be starting the first tentative steps in the buildup.

I know one thing, I'm using the hoist to move it around.

[Alaska Mike]

I'm in a bit of a quandry about the axles at this point, and I've been running the pros and cons. All of my options would require a rebuild of some nature, to include seals and new bearings. These aren't new axles by any means.

Stock Rover axles:
I could run them as is, but more likely I would do the SeriesTrek shafts and a 27 spline 3rd member in the rear. The front would probably get a disc conversion at some point, and maybe upgraded shafts as required. It's very possible I will be about $3000+ into the axles by the time they are complete, and that's without a locker (the Toyota eLocker option looks a bit involved for me at this time).
What I like about the stock axles:

Full-floating rearend.
3rd member design

What I don't like:

10 spline shafts (in stock form)
Drums all around (in stock form)
Special tools required for maintenance
Consumable parts not always readily available (shipping costs)
Closed knuckle front
Different bolt pattern than my Jeep (can't swap tires without a remount).

Certain things can be dealt with, certain things you live with.

Dana 44 rear/Dana 30 front:
I've been offered a set of M38A1 axles for pretty cheap. The rear is an offset Dana 44 with 2 piece axle shafts and 5.38 gears. The front is a Dana 25 closed-knuckle axle, which will be replaced with a Dana 30 of similar width, but with slightly stronger components and disc brakes. The Dana 44 would probably get 1 piece shafts or a full-floating conversion (I'm still researching vendors), and the gears would probably be changed to 4.10s for highway performance. I can easily do the two axles for $2,000.
What I like about the stock axles:

Local parts availability
Disc brakes up front
Common, easily found tools
Tire swaps easy
Been working on them for years
Open knuckle front

What I don't like:

10 spline shafts (in stock form)
Will require spring perch modification
Aftermarket support dwindling in last 10 years for rear axle
Rover guys will shun me at first glance


The stock axles I have need a lot of work, so any cost saving I have up front are offset by the replacement parts I have to buy (and ship). I really like the design of the rear axle for the most part, and if I could mix the best of both worlds I would. However, I'm not in the mood to carry spares of different bolt patterns or remount a tire every time I need to swap one out. So, it's one or the other. I considered modifying a Salisbury axle, but that has its own issues.

I'd appreciate some input. While the Dana solution might seem like the obvious choice (fom purely a financial standpoint), there are some things to be worked out with it. Likewise, the Rover method is easier from a technical standpoint, it could easily bleed my bank account dry.

Thoughts?

[Mercedesrover]

If you’re not going to be beating on this truck and you’re not going to run a bunch of horsepower, the cheapest way out is leaving it the way it is. Get yourself a fresh set of rear shafts and keep the old ones for spares. In my opinion the ring/pinion and the differential is the weak link with new decent shafts. When these 10-spline shafts do fail, it’s from fatigue, not their inherent weakness. And they will fail at a rate of 100% over time. The alloy they’re made of just isn’t designed to accept the frequency of twisting that they’re subject to.

If you want to upgrade so something stronger, I’ll give you my advice in the order of cost.

1) If you can handle the gearing, swap both diffs out for coiler units with 3:54 gears. Get a 10-spine diff for the front and leave those shafts alone and get a 24-spline diff for the rear and upgrade to my axles. This still leaves the ring/pinion/diff as the weak point but they’re cheap to buy and you’ve eliminated the problematic axles. You can do this for probably around $850 depending on what the diffs cost you.

2) You can leave the front axle alone and upgrade the rear to a 4:70 Toyota diff and my 30-spine axles. This will give you a rock-solid axle with a diff that’s even stronger than the V6/turbo style. You will need to weld and re-drill your housing as well as bore out the stub axles a bit but you will have an axle that will never let you down. Of course, this leaves the stock gearing so you’ll need to find your road speed by different methods. Depending on what this diff costs you, this can be done for under $1000 too.

3) Go all out and swap both the front and rear diffs with Toyota V6/turbo e-locker diffs and my 30-spine axles front and rear. This requires welding and drilling both the front and rear case, boring out the rear stub axles and upgrading the front FWH to 24-spline units. This method will give you a wide choice of gearing as well as lockers front and rear and a set of axles that are proven successful. There are guys with this conversion running 36”-38” tires in heavy, heavy coil-sprung rigs and not breaking anything. There’s even a guy over in Lebanon that has 42”s on his DII with this conversion. You will build these axles once and never touch them again. It’s not cheap though, and cost will vary depending on whether you buy used diffs in a factory gear, buy new diffs in a factory gear or have someone like Marlin Crawler build you new diffs in an aftermarket ratio. With used diffs in a stock ratio, this conversion will cost you around $3000. With new diffs with a non-factory ratio and you’ll drop $5000 pretty quickly.

What you will have this last set-up is the strongest axles you can build while using the factory housings. Mine have been done for years and for thousands of miles without any trouble. If the gearing doesn’t bother you and you need something strong, the second option is probably your best bet. The 4:70 diff isn’t easy to find, but they’re out there and pretty cheap. A good used one shouldn’t cost you more than $400.

jim

[Alaska Mike]

Any vehicle I run up here will see some moderate wheeling. I know that designation varies a great deal, but up here it means creek crossings up to the headlights, muskeg, some rocks, and hillclimbs. Since everything is usually wet, there will be some wheelspin involved. It certainly isn't going to be an easy life, but many wheeling vehicles up here see worse. The difference is that this vehicle will be used for more long-distance travel.

The plan is to run 32"-33" tires in a 10.5" width, probably BFG MTs.

I'm not as concerned about the R&P as I am the axle shafts. I'm also wanting to swap to disc brakes at least in the front. We run a lot of mud/water, and when you throw in a greasy hill the last thing you want to think about is if your brakes will hold.

Your rear axle shafts have me interested, but to do the front would be cost-prohibitive if I wanted to do a disc brake conversion. 3.54 would be a little high geared for the engine I'm considering.

By coiler, do you mean Range Rover Classics and Defenders? Sorry, my Rover lingo isn't up to speed just yet. Is there a 4.7 diff for the 24 spline 3rd member, or is there a factory/aftermarket gearset that will replace it?

[Mercedesrover]

Yes, it can be done with a spacer ring from ARB (#RD03A). Find yourself a 24-spline coiler (yes, Defender, Rangie, Disco = coiler) diff and throw the spacer and Series gear-set in them.

A pretty cheap way out but not a vast improvement in strength.

[Alaska Mike]

Sorry for the inane questions, but is there a case split for higher or lower gearsets, or is there only one case for all?

The Rover route is sounding better and better, especially if I downsize my tires a little (31x10.50s or something along those lines) and stay with open diffs (which was my intention).

I'm going to have to do some real thinking over the holiday and weigh my options.

By the way, what payment options do you take for your axles?

[Mercedesrover]

Sorry for the inane questions, but is there a case split for higher or lower gearsets, or is there only one case for all?

By the way, what payment options do you take for your axles?

The cases have some differences, the biggest being the side bearing size. If you find a 24-spline pumpkin the only thing you'll need to install your 4:70 gear set is the spacer ring.

I can take a check or Paypal. Email me off-board if you're interested.

jim

[Alaska Mike]

The Novak adapters and rebuild kit showed up yesterday (Merry Christmas). The pile grows...

I've started looking harder at keeping my Rover axles and making the modifications that Mercedesrover suggested. Buying a new set of rear shafts and keeping the old ones for spares is a cheap(er) way to spread out the cost while still maintaining a level of reliability. Downsizing the tires a bit will also prolong the stock axles life.

The 24 spline Rover carrier has me interested, but finding them for less than $800 on the net is proving difficult. After the holidays I'll have to contact several vendors and see what's available. If anyone has any leads, let me know.

This is always the most frustrating part of the build for me, as the money keeps going out the door but no wrenching has occured. I'll be starting on the transmission and transfercase in the next couple of weeks, and then I'll look at dragging the rear axle in for a rebuild.

Wish me luck. Who knows what I'll find...

[kd_walmsley]

Mike,

Santa sent me a Defender front panel and grill for Christmas so now I just need the hood and I can send you my 109 parts. Let me know if you hear of any good deals on a used Defender hood.

Cheers,

Kevin

[Alaska Mike]

Mike,

Santa sent me a Defender front panel and grill for Christmas so now I just need the hood and I can send you my 109 parts. Let me know if you hear of any good deals on a used Defender hood.

Cheers,

Kevin

Knowing me, if I found a Defender hood sitting around I'd move heaven and earth trying to find the rest of the Defender.

Let me know when you're ready and we'll do this thing.

Thanks
-Mike

[Andrew Walcker]

Mike, I've got nothing to add except to say that I've really been digging this thread and your thought process for this build. Keep up the faith, you are kicking some serious tail even if it doesn't feel like it! Here's to seeing some progress in 2008! :beer:

[Alaska Mike]

Well, thanks to the efforts of Mercedesrover I found a Disco I, 24 spline case for cheap on eBay, and it's currently on its way. Also on order is the ARB ring gear adapter, as well as bearings, seals, and all sorts of small parts to completely rebuild the axle. Last but not least, we're finalizing the details of getting a set of the 24 spline Seriestrek axle shafts up here.

If the weather doesn't turn, looks like I'll be digging out the Rover chassis to remove the rear axle. Then I'll be cleaning and painting the housing so it looks all pretty like Mercedesrover's 109 build. Shame to put all that money in them just to leave them rusty. Plus, I'd rather work with clean parts where I can see the leaks and other problems.

The front axle will get a similar treatment, but I will probably stay with the stock axle shafts and carrier for now.

The transmission and transfercase are being built right now.

Like the Hanson's Grendel, I'm mainly focusing on getting a solid rig right now. Here and there I'm addressing things that I can improve, but the main thing is to get a reliable platform to build on.

[Alaska Mike]

Well, the rear axle is sitting in the garage right now with the springs, wheels, and shocks still attached. That was the easiest way to get it off without lying in the snow screaming profanities. I have young children. Once the snow melts off, I'll strip it down and start getting it ready for a rebuild.

...And man, does it need a rebuild. The pinion has about 1/2" of play (side to side). I haven't pulled the wheels off to get to the drums, but from the looks of the wheels the seals have seen better days. I think the last owner used about a tube of RTV sealing up the 3rd member to the housing, so this should be interesting. If the gears are worn too bad, worst case scenerio I'll either buy stock 4.70 gears or spring for 4.10s and get some highway performance. My calculated low range was around 75:1, so I think I have the room to play. I considered staying with the Disco 3.54s (compound low at about 57:1), but I'm not sure my engine choice has the grunt to pull 3.54s on the highway with oversize tires. Better to err on the side of caution here. 4.10s would put me at about 66:1, which is a good off-road range for a smaller engine.

I'm a little worried what I may find when I get to the front, but I'll cross that bridge when I'm done burning this one.

Perhaps one day I'll even take some pictures.

[Alaska Mike]

http://home.gci.net/~lf4w/images/RearAxle.jpg
Well I started tearing down the axle and trying to clean it up a bit. When I originally pulled it out, it was a nice shade of tan from the dirt that had adhered to the thick covering of gear oil residue. It was like someone tarred it and then rolled it down a dirt hill. So, the first thing I did (after draining it) was to start scrubbing it down. Four or five hours later it's almost clean and I can touch it most places without having to run for the GoJo. I still need to get some extra-thick areas, but it's much better. I just like working on clean-ish parts if possible. They can get dirty later, but not while I'm trying to rebuild them.

The next task was to start tearing it down. From the goop on the wheels and
outer drums, I wasn't expecting it to be pretty. The brake lines were seized pretty tight, so Vice grips were employed after the wrenches rounded off the fittings. I was planning on replacing the lines, so I'm not going to cry. The drums came off, and it looked like someone had done a thorough job of packing the brake pads with grease. It literally looked intentional. You can see the sheen from the oily pads in the picture. A nice surprise was the new wheel cylinders that were installed.

The next thing to come out was the short side axle shaft. I was pleasantly surprised when I found a new shaft on that side. The long side was the old one (still in good shape), but at least I didn't have two twisted, broken shafts. There was a fair amount of nasty goop in the axle tubes, which I took a little time to clean out. Then I used the old "common screwdriver and hammer" trick to remove the hub nuts, since I don't yet have the hub wrench. Looks like I wasn't the first guy to use that method. I have new hub nuts and washers already, so no loss here. The spindles looked to be in good shape as well, which was another bonus because those things aren't cheap.

I still have yet to remove the 3rd member, and it should be a lot of fun with all of the Blue RTV that was used to seal it up. Once the 3rd member is out, I'll finish cleaning the housing and start painting it. I was thinking lime green with daisies, but I might just go with gloss black over a rust-converting primer.

We'll see if the wife will give me a couple hours tomorrow to continue...

[Alaska Mike]

Oh, and the springs are shot. The rust has separated them pretty badly, and I'm afraid any attempt to remove that rust might make them sag worse than they already do. Hopefully Wise Owl gets me my new parabolics soon.

The rear of the Rover is sitting on jackstands while the axle sits in the warm garage getting all of the attention. I may take my old M100 trailer axle and bolt it under there with the old springs to get my jackstands back. I knew there was a reason I lugged that axle across a continent.

[Alaska Mike]

Well, the wife has said I need to pick a hobby- skiing or the Rover. Since it's winter and I can't really wrench all that much, the Rover will more or less sit while racing season is going on. When late April rolls around I'll have plenty of time to bust knuckles while the snow melts. Until then, I'll sneak in a day or two here and there to play around.

Tonight I picked up my power steering system. $100 for a Scout II box, pump, hoses, brackets, and the stubbly little steering shaft adapter. Not bad compared to what most places want, and it's cheaper than the core charges if anything needs to be replaced. Most likely I'll just clean them up and install seal kits.

The other day I pulled off the 3rd member and cleaned/painted the housing. Man, that was a lot of RTV (see the picture above). I'll put it back together once I get in the Disco I 3rd member and the Seriestrek axle shafts. All the other parts are here and ready to go. Well, I still need to go find a good axle breather so I can route it up to the engine compartment.

My indecisiveness about the engine knows no bounds. I pretty much have it narrowed down to the GM 2.5L I-4 (Iron Duke) and the Chevy 4.3L V-6. The Iron Duke would be a simple swap, requiring the least effort to pull off. However, it would be a carbureted engine and the I-4 might have a few problems on hills maintaining speed. On the upside, it would be easy to fix and shouldn't ever be a problem for the drivetrain. The 4.3L is a bit more complicated. The wiring and exhaust work would be a challenge, and the stock motor mounts would have to be cut off for installation of the V-6 mounts. A TBI 4.3 would be considerably easier to swap than the MPFI engine, but I would lose out on the diagnostic features of an OBDII engine and a bunch of power. Either engine would pull the Rover through any mountain pass. Finding TBI versions with low miles is a difficult task, and finding ones mated to manual transmissions is also proving difficult. We'll see what turns up over the next couple months.

[Scott Brady]

Go with the Iron Duke!

Talk about coming full circle, huh Mikey ;)

[Alaska Mike]

Yeah, when we met I was swapping out an Iron Duke on my CJ for a larger engine. At the time it wasn't the power that was the issue, it was the annoying habit it had of cutting out at highway speed. I dumped hundreds of dollars trying to track that one down with carburetors and distributors and all sorts of diagnostic checks- nothing. So, I swapped it and started a whole 'nother chain of failures.

So, while I do have a history with the Iron Duke, it isn't all that great. Then again, others have had great luck with the engine.

[Alaska Mike]

Gas Mileage:
I think the 2.5L and 4.3L are a wash. I'm expecting about 15 to 20 MPG from either one for normal driving.
HP/Torque:
The 4.3L wins here, hands down. I'd never need more power than the 4.3L can put out in stock form (or want it given the strength of my front axle). While this will not be a hardcore wheeler, it will get used off road. I can compensate for the 2.5L's relative lack of get-up-and-go with the planned gearing and recovery gear off road (I actually like winching), so the highway is the main place the 4.3L has the edge.
Off-road Performance:
The 4.3L will be a TBI or MPFI configuration, which again gets the nod. A carb just can't compete on that level, although the simplicity of the carburetor for field repair cannot be discounted. As has been indicated in other threads, a MPFI engine takes a lot of sensors and electronics to repair. I can repair your average carb with bubble gum and bailing wire.
Installation Cost:
On the surface, they seem about the same, but the devil is in the details. Both will be relatively high-mileage engines, although the 2.5L will probably have slightly fewer miles. I would take the stock wiring harness for the engine and modify it for use in the Rover. The engines cost about the same to buy. Engine mounts cost the same, although the 4.3L mounts would require the removal of the stock mounts while the 2.5L mounts bolt on. The 4.3L would require another, larger radiator, while the 2.5L would be able to use the new Series radiator I have sitting in my garage. The 4.3L would probably require replacement of injectors and sensors for reliability, while the 2.5L would probably need the carb rebuilt, plugs, and a cap and rotor. The 4.3L dual exhaust will probably cost more in terms of man hours and supplies as they route it around the narrow frame. It's very likely they can use the stock Rover exhaust as a kind of template for the 2.5L. Overall, I'd have to say that the advantage goes to the Iron Duke here.
Installation Ease:
A Robert Davis 2.5L conversion takes about 6 hours to install, and I'll be using their engine mounts. I expect my 2.5L conversion to take longer, as I am going to replace the entire wiring harness at the same time. A lot of the engineering has already been done, although the custom nature of the transfercase and transmission might add a few hours of messing around. The 2.5L is also physically smaller, which should give me options when it comes time to install accessories under the hood. The 4.3L would require a little work to find the right mounting location for weight, physical size, and cooling considerations. Wiring for the various sensors and indicators would also add a bit of time that wouldn't be as extensive with the 2.5L install. Advantage, 2.5L.
Parts Availability/Sustainability:
We're talking about GM products here, so parts aren't very hard to find in the US. Both engines were used in a variety of platforms, so your average auto parts store at least has them on the books, if not in stock. The 4.3L is a more modern engine, so it will be easier to find parts for and will be supported longer, but that's a slight edge considering the consumable parts are fewer on the 2.5L and many interchange with other engines. We're talking about a rig that will see less than 50,000 miles over the course of 5 years by my current estimates, even considering long trips.
Overall:
While a 4 cylinder "feels" right in a Land Rover and they aren't really designed as "go-fast" machines (braking, suspension, steering...), the 4.3L would make for better highway (mountain pass) and off-road performance. The Iron Duke I had in my CJ could hold highway speeds on the relatively fast and flat Idaho highway between Mountain Home and Boise (until heat or whatever would cause it to buck like a stallion), and my CJ was basically a rolling brick in terms of aerodynamics- much like the Series. An OBDII engine will be much more complex, with the partial offset of having diagnostic capability. It's all pretty much a dead-heat to me right now.

:confused:

[Alaska Mike]

Today the wife called me at work and said I got something in the mail. Something heavy and in a 5 gallon paint bucket. I knew right then that it could only be the Disco 3rd member. Yay!

Then she started asking questions about how much it cost, which I successfully deflected- for the moment. I must be careful, as I still have a frame, suspension, and bulkhead on the way. Perhaps Jedi mind control is warranted here-

"You see no Land Rover parts. There is no greasy hulk in the garage. Gear oil smells good..."

[Mercedesrover]

Your axles will be in the mail on Monday, Mike. Should I disguise them as something else? Paper weights? Ice breakers? Really strong ski poles? Anything but Land Rover parts, right?

jim

[Alaska Mike]

Whatever you do, don't mark them as scrapbooking tools. I'll never get them back.

Looking forward to getting them. Once they're on hand I'll start putting the axle back togther and start looking at the front. It will be nice to complete a portion of the build and be able to say "that's done", check it off the list, and move on.

[Scott Brady]

"You see no Land Rover parts. There is no greasy hulk in the garage. Gear oil smells good..."

You could always try the "spend quality time with your new bride" option, or the "movie and a dinner date" distraction. She is uber cool, so it will work out...

[Andrew Walcker]

If your wife is as smart as mine don't try the line of, "Honey, I'm in this huge mail part swapping club for LR enthusiast, it's part of the circle of life thing and.....":oops:

I totaly agree with Scott that this :26_34_3: along with dinner and a movie timed just before the mailman shows up to be the best course of action! :26_7_2:

[Alaska Mike]

Yeah, I shot myself in the foot already, since I take her out to eat often. Any distraction of that nature would be costly. Then again, it would solve the problem, since I wouldn't have any Rover money to spend.

I do have an uber-cool wife, so I'll do my best not to anger her. For now that means not working on the Rover too much during ski racing season (not a problem- it's cold) and trying to help with the kids and the house in my own incompetent manner.

I still think the Jedi trick has its merits.

[Alaska Mike]

Yesterday I was in a friend's shop, and he had a Jeep YJ up on the rack. I did some quick measurements and it looks like the MPFI I-4 might fit the engine compartment. A couple quick calls around uncovered a running '92 2.5L with all of the harness (down to the tail lights) for $300-$400. The earlier, pre-OBDII engines are pretty darn reliable with fewer sensors than the later engines. The engine package is roughly 2' wide by 3' long, similar to the Iron Duke 2.5L.

I think (if it will fit) this would have some of the benefits of both of my previous engine choices (the Iron Duke and the 4.3L). I could pull highway speeds in mountain passes with relative ease, run offroad at angles without flooding, and have a manufacturer-supported engine (there is a ton of support for Jeep engines). I would have to fabricate engine mounts, but that is a minor issue in the scheme of things.

Novak makes a complete kit to adapt the 2.5L to the SM465, which includes the bellhousing, crank position sensor bracket, pressure plate, clutch disc, slave cylinder, pushrod, pivot, and throw-out bearing. It would make for a very clean install.

I really need to get in there and do some more measuring to see if it's possible.

[4Rescue]

This truck's gonna be neat when it get's finnished... I'm glad to see someone else has issues making up his mind about engines as much as I did ;)

[kd_walmsley]

Mike,

I owned a 2.5l MPFI in a jeep YJ with 33" tires and 4.10 gearing for a few years. Considering it is a computer controlled engine, I found it very reliable and parts were extremely cheap, just a junk yard away in most cases. The stats say you are looking at 121 hp (90 kW) @5250 and 139 ft•lbf (188 N•m) @3250. I was able to hold approx. 45mph over the Rockies on I70 with a very heavy equipment load. On generally flat terrain I had no problems with 3000 rpm for approx 10 hours a day including pit stops. On 33's with the YJ 2.5l, 4.88 gearing is near ideal for me so landy 4.7's should work fine.

If you going through all the very admirable effort of new motor mounts, transmission adapters, computers, etc.... why not go for a much better performing motor?

[njtaco]

Mike,

I hope I'm not interrupting, or adding to confusion (indecision) but can you not use a carbureted 4.3 with a simple distributor? No need for OBD2, or any computer for that matter, and more power than the Duke? Or do you need a specific production engine for inspection or something? Just wondering...and learning, too.:D

[Mercedesrover]

I've always wondered why the 4.3 isn't used more in Series trucks. Nice and short, pretty light, strong and reliable and an almost unlimited choice of transmissions. It's a small-block Chevy, only smaller. What's better than that?

[Alaska Mike]

Excellent questions, and hopefully my thought processes make sense.

The carb'd 4.3L was/is certainly on the table, as was/is the TBI version. The real problem for me is finding a donor with relatively low (sub 150K) miles in the state. I really don't want to dump thousands into the engine before I even get it rolling. It would also need to come from a vehicle with a manual transmission, or I would be searching for all sorts of small and large parts to make it work. Been there, done that.

The GM 2.5L is an older engine, but I found one that has less than 150K out of a CJ with a verifiable history. Likewise, I can find OBDII 4.3Ls with manageable mileage that haven't been abused.

The Jeep 2.5L is kinda a late entry in the race. I'm familiar enough with them to be intrigued. They combine what I like about both engines, and the cost of adapters will be almost offset by the lower cost of getting the engine and wiring harness.

As always, nothing is written in stone and I would probably be happy with any of the choices in the long run, for different reasons.

[Alaska Mike]

As I said in an earlier post, a 4 banger just "feels" right in a Series rig. However, I also looked at odd-fire Buicks and all sorts of V6s, because there's a certain charm there as well. A V8 isn't on the table for me, simply because I'm not a V8 kind of guy and while the transmission and transfercase will certainly be able to handle the extra grunt, the axles will probably faint and the brake pads will melt at the first sign of any skinny pedal.

Novak sells a book on swapping in TBI and MPFI Chevy motors, and that might be my first step in deciding.

[Mercedesrover]

A V8 isn't on the table for me......the axles will probably faint.....

You won't have any trouble with those axles. The diffs perhaps, but not the axles!

jim

[TeriAnn]

I do have an uber-cool wife, so I'll do my best not to anger her. For now that means not working on the Rover too much during ski racing season (not a problem- it's cold) and trying to help with the kids and the house in my own incompetent manner.

I still think the Jedi trick has its merits.

Sounds like your plan has lot of merit. Try being attentive and supportive of her projects. Satisfaction leaves less room for project jealousies. Mutual support is a good trick.

trickery & slight of hand cost trust points. Real hard to replace if lost and real important to have.

[TeriAnn]

As I said in an earlier post, a 4 banger just "feels" right in a Series rig. However, I also looked at odd-fire Buicks and all sorts of V6s, because there's a certain charm there as well. A V8 isn't on the table for me, simply because I'm not a V8 kind of guy and while the transmission and transfercase will certainly be able to handle the extra grunt, the axles will probably faint and the brake pads will melt at the first sign of any skinny pedal.


Sometimes the extra grunt is easier on the drive train because power can be applied smoothly at a constant rate along a lot of trails.

As a data point, my 302 with cast iron heads weighs less than 50 pounds more than a stock 2.25L petrol. The 302 with a carb got identical fuel mileage to what I got with the 2.25L and the 302 has more torque at idle than the 2.25L had at peak. Torque application is much smoother with the larger engine.



You are talking about computer controlled engines but I bet you haven't progressed to the point of where to put a computer. So I'll jump ahead in the topic with a suggestion:


http://www.expeditionlandrover.info/GRdetailPics/302EEC.jpg

Bulkhead instrument shelf right side is about as protected place as you are going to find. There is a hole in the bulkhead covered by a plate. The hole is for right hand steering. It is in a perfect place for the EFI harness to go through the bulkhead. I just removed the cover plate, filed the hole a little larger and used the bulkhead grommet from the donor harness. I mounted the EEC power relay inside right next to the EEC.

http://www.expeditionlandrover.info/GRdetailPics/GR_fuesePanel.jpg
With the cover plate in front of the computer.



I replaced my centre seat with a cubby box. On the behind the seat bulkhead I mounted a flat plate that mounts a fire extinguisher. I ended up putting the impact switch next to the fire extinguisher where I can easily reach it encase it accidentally tripped as I was going over an obstical. The fuel pump relay is on the back side of the panel in the space between the panel & bulkhead.

High pressure EFI pump can be a problem. They push well but they do not suck well. An external pump would require a high volume low pressure pump (good at sucking from a fuel tank) to feed it and if you plan on operating the vehicle at high angles you will need a fuel accumulator between the two pumps that the high pressure pump can draw from while the tank's pickup tube is out of the fuel. Your best solution is a custom tank that has mounts for an internal fuel pump plus good baffling to keep the fuel by the pickup at steep angles. A stock tank would still need a fuel return inlet to be added.

I've noticed that OBDII vehicles tend to be hydrophobic. That's generally because a hot crank angle sensor may break when suddenly immersed in near freezing water. The sensor needs to be at crank level low on the engine and the engine will never fire up without the sensor input. If you decide on ODBII I suggest carrying a bag full of spare crank angle sensors.

[Alaska Mike]

Thanks for the detailed answer, TeriAnn. My Series III dash isn't quite as versatile as yours, but I was considering the same location for any module I may need to mount. I'm considering running the wiring harness on that side as well, if for no other reason than to keep it away from the brake and clutch master cylinders.

I certainly like the idea of having more grunt under the hood, but I figure I need to balance that with the existing axles and braking power. The shafts in the rear (thanks to Mercedesrover) will be the least of my worries, but the front shafts will remain stock (with new ujoints) until they break. I'd rather not hurry that process if I can avoid it. The brakes will probably be upgraded first, but that's several years down the line.

One of the reasons I really like the Jeep 2.5L is that they are durable for a MPFI engine. Failures are pretty rare, and the parts can be gotten fairly easily from junkyards (tons of Cherokees out there), parts stores, and the dealer. While not quite as common as the 4.3L, they are out there. Also, it's easier to find a low-mileage 2.5L, simply because people don't put as many miles on a Jeep as they do on a Blazer or S10- at least up here.

Guys up here pull Jeep 2.5Ls all of the time from their Wranglers and Cherokees. You might ask why I would want an engine that everyone seems determined to get rid of. Good question. The main reason people pull them is that they don't have the torque to spin up large (36"+) tires in the mud. Not a problem for me, as I don't plan on running anything larger than a 33" tire. The YJ and the Rover weigh roughly the same (give or take a few hundred pounds- slight advantage Rover) and have the same brick-like aerodynamics.

I'm still in the "what if" stage of looking at this option. I think the main reason it hasn't been done is the whole "Jeep vs Rover" thing, which I don't completely understand given Land Rover's history. I'll do a bit more poking around and see what is possible.

[Alaska Mike]

When I got home today, there sat a long box on the steps. I immediately got all giddy and tore it open, to find two beautiful Seriestrek axles. They're almost too pretty to hide in an axle housing. Perhaps I can reinstall the original shafts and mount the Seriestrek axles on the front bumper so everyone can see how cool I am. Perhaps not.

When I get a spare second I'm going to have to start rebuilding the rear axle. I'm kinda excited to see how it all goes together.

[Mercedesrover]

Three days from Connecticut to Anchorage! Who says the US Postal Service doesn't work. And 33% cheaper than UPS to boot!

No worries, Mike. I can make you a second set to bolt to the bumper!

jim

[Alaska Mike]

That would be some pricey hood bling! Maybe I'll hold off until after I get the ground effects and spinners.

I hope to have the rear axle assembled soon so I can move on to the front.

By the way, anyone have any experience with Genuine brake pads vs aftermarket? Why the major (and I do mean major) price difference?

[TeriAnn]

By the way, anyone have any experience with Genuine brake pads vs aftermarket?

Mintex is a very good brand. You will never go wrong if you specify Mintex shoes & TRW/lucas/Girling cylinders.

[Alaska Mike]

Mintex is a very good brand. You will never go wrong if you specify Mintex shoes & TRW/lucas/Girling cylinders.

Do you have a supplier? I haven't seen that brand advertised, and I'm always open to new vendors outside the usual Land Rover channels.

[Mercedesrover]

George at Rovers Down South keeps that stuff as well as Automec brake lines. I just got a whole set of TRW/Lucas wheel cylinders for the 109 from him as well as an Automec brake pipe set. I've never used the Automec stuff before but is sure is pretty!

jim

[TeriAnn]

Do you have a supplier? I haven't seen that brand advertised, and I'm always open to new vendors outside the usual Land Rover channels.

British Pacific carries both. Mintex is a major brake company in the UK. I use them on both my Land Rover and my Triumph TR3A.

Girling was purchased by Lucas which was purchased by TRW. The box is usually green with LUCAS in white lettering. This is the OEM manufacturer and what you will find inside the Genuine LR box.

[Alaska Mike]

My CJ-5 has a Girling hydraulic master/slave clutch system, which I kinda like and have retrofitted on two Jeeps. I have a local dealer that I can get the Girling Jeep parts through for fairly cheap, so hopefully they can hook me up with the Rover parts as well.

I do need brake lines, and it looks like Rovers Down South has a pretty good deal on them (2/3 of the price at most other places). The brake pad price isn't all that bad either. My wheel cylinders look new, so I may just throw some new seals in there and call it done.

[Ruffin' It]

If your better half is type-A like mine, you are welcome to try my tactic which basically plays out like this:

Say I spend 15 hours/week in the garage and installing $400 worth of parts (on average) that works out to about about $26/hour in recreation. Verses 15 hours/week in a bar with an average of 3 drinks/hour at $5.00/drink equaling about $15/hour not including tip. That is $225 at the bar where you don't get anything in return for your investment except an even bigger gut. When I'm in the garage you know where I am, what I am doing, and I'm not going to get a DUI driving home. Besides, eventually the $400 a week stops when the project is done (hopefully she hasn't figured out that it never stops yet) while the bar would continue forever. In the long run I am preserving my health, your sanity, and saving money.

You have to be careful with the last line. When I tried it I learned that my wife is actually able to roll her eyes in a complete rotation.

Great thread BTW. I've been really itching of a Series lately and I'm getting answers to a lot of the little nagging questions that I've had. Thanks,

Tyler



If your wife is as smart as mine don't try the line of, "Honey, I'm in this huge mail part swapping club for LR enthusiast, it's part of the circle of life thing and.....":oops:

I totaly agree with Scott that this :26_34_3: along with dinner and a movie timed just before the mailman shows up to be the best course of action! :26_7_2:

[Alaska Mike]

The plan was to buy a set of Rocky Mountain springs, OME shocks, and various suspension parts from Wise Owl, totalling about $1400 in parts alone. Not a small chunk of change for a guy like me. Nearly two months after first contacting them, I still don't have even a box sitting on my front porch, much less a good estimate for shipping costs. I realize that I called during a busy season and they were trying to work the best possible rate for me, but this seems like a longer than normal time frame. I called a few times to check up, and was assured that they were waiting for a quote.

Let me make this clear- I'm not bashing Wise Owl. My experience so far may be a complete freak of nature beyond their control. They have been willing to answer my technical questions and really have been otherwise pleasant on the phone. Others seem to have nothing but good things to say about them, and their location makes shipping cheaper for me. I will probably deal with them in the future. This instance doesn't seem to be working out, though.

That said, I've been looking at the old, stock suspension with a different mindset. The springs are 35 years old, so they aren't in peak shape. The bushings need to be replaced, unless the holes are supposed to be oblong and the rubber was designed to crack and fall out in chunks. Might be a Rover thing. The leaves themselves are pretty rusty, spreading apart in spots and will need to be taken apart to clean and paint, and they will get the TAW spring treatment as well while I'm there. The springs might have lost a bit of height, but they still have a positive arch under load.

With this option I might have to drop my tire size down a notch, depending on how they settle under the loads I'm carrying. That isn't an issue for me, since I kinda prefer the look of the smaller tires vs the "stuff as much rubber in the fenders as you can" look. There may be a slight issue with gearing (too low for the given tire size/engine), but I don't expect it to be too overwhelming.

Seems like every time I make a decision, it changes down the line and then affects 6 or 7 others. It's a good thing I'm not in a hurry.

[seriessearcher]

I just have parts sent to my office to avoid any stares from the wife.:wings:

Now the project 109 I just bought to complete my dormobile may be ahrder to hide :(

[xcmountain80]

I just have parts sent to my office to avoid any stares from the wife.:wings:

Now the project 109 I just bought to complete my dormobile may be ahrder to hide :(


Ahhh I too partake in the shipping diversion.


Aaron

[Alaska Mike]

Speaking of tires, what size have you guys run on Series Rovers? I like the look of the tires on Henry's Series III Eore (at least the ones in the pictures on the site). Not too large, not too small.
http://www.4x4freedom.com/images/106-0622_IMG.JPG

[bovw]

A friend of mine has a Series III running 245/75/16 Goodyear MTR's. He has parabolic springs and the tires fit just right.

[MuddyMudskipper]

Speaking of tires, what size have you guys run on Series Rovers? I like the look of the tires on Henry's Series III Eore (at least the ones in the pictures on the site). Not too large, not too small.

It depends on the look you are looking for and what kind of off-roading you will be doing with the Rover from Hell.

[Alaska Mike]

I have the CJ for more hardcore wheeling. This vehicle will be used for more long-distance wheeling, while still maintaining some mud/rock/water capability. Very likely that I will be going with BFG MTs, mainly for the blend of off and on highway performance. While I love my Swampers, I doubt they would last any time on the highway.

The look I'm going for is very similar to Henry's Series, or something in that ballpark. The fact that you can see over the spare is a nice bonus.

[ShearPin]

Mike

Those are 235/85's on my Series III. For suspension I have Rocky mountain parabolic fronts and TI Concol rears (I had a front break) with Old Man Emu shocks all around.

For a better view over the spare I would suggest the BFG muds in that size over the MTR's. The BFG's are what I ran for a number of years prior and the profile of the tire is much more square. Mounting the MTR on the hood actually required modification to the hood mount to accommodate the bulge of the MTR.

Henry
www.4x4freedom.com

[bovw]

Not a great pic, but this is my buddies series III with parabolics and 245/75's

15164

[Alaska Mike]

I'm certainly considering a 31x10.50R15 (close relative of the 245/75R16s), since I already have 15" rims. I certainly think they would look fine, but the extra effective gearing from a 32" or 33" tire would also be nice. I'm not sold on a tire requiring 15" rims, because mine need a bunch of cleaning/painting. Might be easier to buy a set of 16" rims and call it quit.

[Alaska Mike]

Today I played with the transmission and transfercase a bit. The transmission is almost complete (adapter installed and only missing the input shaft seal), and I'm pretty darn impressed with its overall condition considering how much I paid for it. It looks brand new on the inside. The transfercase gears look a bit rough at spots from sitting in a little water, but they aren't chipped and I'm going to give them a shot and see what they do. I'm betting that the corrosion pitting will wear down a bit during use and the worst I'll get is a little gear whine. After a bit of break-in, I'm planning on running AMSOIL in the transmission and transfercase, so they'll probably be as quiet as they'll ever get. All the bearings and consumable parts are being replaced, so hopefully I'll never have to go back in there (at least for another 35+ years).

The engine is still up in the air, but the Jeep MPFI 2.5L is really interesting to me at this point. I've done some measuring and it looks to be a sweet fit. We'll see how this all shakes out.

I got the word yesterday that my frame and bulkhead are being shipped and I should see them within a couple weeks. I guess I need to finish up the axles and springs so I can move it around and begin trying to fit all of these parts on it.

No pictures yet, because I get kinda greasy when I work and don't want to mess up my camera. I'll try to document as I go once I get rolling.

[Wanderlusty]

For someone who is in no hurry....your build sure is shaping up quickly....

Can't wait to see the finished product. Or the 'sorta finished' product...no good project vehicle is ever really finished....

[Alaska Mike]

To be honest, other than the disassembly and a little wrenching with the axles, I haven't done a whole lot, I have a bunch of parts stacked up and more on order, but other than that I've pretty much sat on my hands. Part of this is due to time, but it's mostly due to the fact that it's bitterly cold outside and I have other things to do when there's snow on the ground. I should get my project moving come Summer if my plans work out.

I do like to have a clear direction from the start. I'll still makle a ton of judgement errors that will result in more work, but a decent plan always makes it cheaper and less painful in the long run.

[Wanderlusty]

Just getting all those parts there and ready to go for summer is pretty significant in itself, tho....

[Alaska Mike]

I'm looking at swapping gears in the rear. Right now I have a 24 spline Disco I 3rd member with 3.54 gears installed (and all of the bearings and seals to rebuild it) and the original Series 3rd member with the stock 4.7 gears. My original thought was to swap the 4.7 gears over to the Disco diff using an ARB adapter ring, but the guy who does all of my gear work said that there is a good chance of excess gear noise and wear if he is unable to match the patterns. He was willing to try, and the guy is very talented, but I'm looking at other options. Other factors I'm considering: the gears are 35 years old and swapping gears from one carrier to another would incur more labor expenses, plus I would have an essentially useless 3rd member (the original Series) since I won't pay to have the 3:54 gears installed on it.

That said, are there any preferences in gear sets? I don't want to change the front gears if I can avoid it, so that limits my choices to the stock gear ratio and perhaps the GBR 4.75 set. I'm seeing pricing for gear sets anywhere from $219 to $875 (do I get fries with that?). I know gearset quality can vary greatly from manufacturer to manufacturer, so does anyone have any suggestions?

[Alaska Mike]

It was a good day.

http://home.gci.net/~lf4w/images/misc/Frame002.jpg

Obviously I'm going to have to do some real work on that bulkhead, but it's not nearly as bad off as the original one. I'll probably start the project in earnest in the next couple months, as warm temperatures have melted off a lot of the snow and I now have a platform to bolt pieces to. I think the first step is going to be cleaning up the bulkhead for new footwells and designing a new dash. I was thinking of something along the lines of the Series II.

[Alaska Mike]

By the way, does anyone have the link for the guy who built his own square tube and sheetmetal dash for a Series III? I ran across it a few months ago, but now I can't find it.

[seriessearcher]

By the way, does anyone have the link for the guy who built his own square tube and sheetmetal dash for a Series III? I ran across it a few months ago, but now I can't find it.


Do you mean the guy building one from scratch based out of CO welding up his own?

[Alaska Mike]

Did he do a write-up on one of the boards? I just remember seeing the pictures and thinking it was a cool idea.

I ran across a Series III bulkhead in a shed today when I stopped by a house to look at a couple Series IIA 109s. The owner offered it to me for a good price with a clear title and several components installed (brake booster and clutch master cylinder among them). It needs some work, but I may pick it up for the parts or repair it instead. That would probably save me hours of fabrcation/repair time. I'll swing by tomorrow and see what else he has to offer/trade. You never kow what lies in someone else's shed...

[seriessearcher]

He actually bagged the idea a little while ago to pursue a different approach. I can find it if you like.

[Alaska Mike]

Well, I picked up the bulkhead yesterday, and I'm just giggling like a little girl over it. All of the dash pieces are in great shape, and the only parts that really need attention are the floorboards. The title for the chassis is free and clear, and not only is the model correct (88 SW), but the year as well. Gotta love that. It is blue, but I'll try to suffer through.

This will save me a ton of man hours trying to fabricate a new dash, which will thrill my wife to no end. Having a brake booster and spare clutch master cylinder is also a bonus.

Floorboards are on the way....

[Alaska Mike]

Well, yesterday I spend about 4 hours cleaning and painting the rear leaf springs. Now I know why people buy new springs.

Getting the spring packs apart took a considerable amount of time, as prying apart the spring clamps was a chore (they're pretty beefy). The rust had pushed the leaves tightly against the clamps, so I didn't have a lot of room to work. Then I spent a bunch of time pounding the clamps into U shapes (instead of the C shape that goes over top the spring), since the plastic I'm inserting might take up too much volume. It's a 12 leaf pack, so it adds up.

I burned and cut out the rubber spring bushings, which wasn't that bad considering that they were worn to the point of being mere afterthoughts. Great Basin Rovers supplied me with the greaseable poly bushings, and to save a little money I bought a set that had coarse threads. I have to re-tap the shackles, but that's about it.

All of the bolts broke as I tried to remove them, but they were going to be replaced anyway. I cleaned the loose rust and scale off with an aggressive wire wheel on my angle grinder. I left a little surface rust on (I couldn't get it all of if I tried) and painted them with Extend, followed by a thin coat of gloss black spraypaint. Hopefully the plastic will prevent the springs from getting too hot from friction, which might render the paint useless.

I'm going to let them cure for a couple days before I apply the plastic and put them back together.

Thanks to TeriAnn for posting the idea on her website (http://www.expeditionlandrover.info/) and listing resources to get it done. Hopefully it will prevent me from having to get new springs. The last quote I got for springs (stock or parabolics) and OME shocks (including shipping) was like $1400, and we never get the free shipping offers up here.

[revor]

I used the same technique on my 109's springs based on how TeriAnn did hers (hope Andre isn't watching) it works great! I did cheat and extend the front frame horns enough to put rear springs up front. Another thing I did was to leave a few of the shorter leaves out of the clamps, this helped them move a little more freely. Mounting the rear shocks the way Timm did it also helped things move a bit more. I was able to use the mounting for the travel limiting straps to mount my crossmember. I also moved my shock mouning points up front to teh top of the frame. With these mods I was able to use shocks from an F250 (1993) and gain several inches of travel without causing a boatload of extra lift.

On my second 109 (not done yet) I simply used Jeep Yj Front springs, 4" longer each end. I used F350 front shock mounts in the front. This truck is about 3" higher than stock.

Blast! Now I'm not only guilty of having owned a vehicle (numerous really) with Leaf springs but also guily of using Jeep parts on a Land Rover!!! I will burn now...

[Yorker]

On my second 109 (not done yet) I simply used Jeep Yj Front springs, 4" longer each end. I used F350 front shock mounts in the front. This truck is about 3" higher than stock.

Blast! Now I'm not only guilty of having owned a vehicle (numerous really) with Leaf springs but also guily of using Jeep parts on a Land Rover!!! I will burn now...

Keith- Do you have any pics of that?

[Alaska Mike]

I'd like to see that as well. Did you use stock YJ springs, or were they aftermarket?

[gjackson]

Blast! Now I'm not only guilty of having owned a vehicle (numerous really) with Leaf springs but also guily of using Jeep parts on a Land Rover!!! I will burn now...

Keith, you are going to the special hell . . .

cheers

[Alaska Mike]

Geez, I'm installing a whole Jeep engine, not just a set of springs. What ring am I headed to?

[articulate]

What ring am I headed to?
Ring? It's actually square with rounded corners. Like the bastardized headlight that came on the YJ. :)

[Alaska Mike]

That's appropriate, since the engine will be coming out of a YJ.

[revor]

I'll try to locate some pic's I'm sure I have a few. Basically I used 3"X.120" wall square tubing to extend the horns, Butt welded and then plated. I thin I made my own front spring mounts that mimicked the factory one but raised them as high as I could. In the rear I used a bung through the frame like stock to mount the shackle bushings only a bit lower and bigger diameter so that I could use bigger bushings. The springs are a 4" Super lift soft ride lift with a double military wrap to fit the front of said YJ (3" wide springs)

The Truck has a Ford 302/T18/lt230 combo and it seems to sit nicely.

See if I can round up some pics!

That special hell? Do they have beer?

[Hltoppr]

Don't worry Mike...just don't tell the hardcore roverphiles what motor is in it...

When I was looking at a SII...I was going to put the entire 89 Wrangler 4cyl/5speed/231/Dana 30F-35R drivetrain in it....just to be able to source cheap parts....

-H-

[Alaska Mike]

That's just evil.

Actually, if it wasn't for the 88's crossmember right behind the transfercase, I would have gone the centered-diff route and probably saved a bunch of money.

I'll have a Jeep engine, GM transmission, Scout transfercase, and Series axles (with a rear Disco I 3rd member). Will it qualify as a hybrid?

[Hltoppr]

Sounds to me it would be just as easy to make a new crossmember, as far in it as you are anyways...

You're gonna save a bunch of $$ on parts later on by having that drivetrain!

-H-

[Alaska Mike]

I seriously considered the crossmember work, but I opted for just using a Spicer 18 with the Rover axles. I had considered using M38A1 axles, but I nixed that idea because parts aren't any more common for the Dana 25 than they are for the Rover axles. I like the full-floater, 3rd member design, and with the Disco diff and the Seriestrek axles, I'm pretty close to the same strength of the the 44 (ish).

The adapters are adding up, but I see this as a do it once and move on kind of thing. How long do you think a SM465 can last behind a 4 cylinder? Fully rebuilt Spicer 18s last decades. The new driveshafts will be much stronger than the stock items. The axles themselves will be rebuilt completely, and will probably last a very, very long time. The engine itself I'll have to see about rebuilding, as it may be fine for 100,000 more miles without an issue.

I can't imagine what I would have had to spend to rebuild the original engine and drivetrain, only to have it be half as capable, reliable, or strong as the one I'm putting in. I still won't be passing any hotrods on the street, but at least I'll be able to keep up with traffic (with the help of a strong tailwind).

[Hltoppr]

The 4cyl makes what, 130hp or so....and some decent torque, but nowhere close to having to worry about those axles and trans, even with 33s...

I couldn't remember if you were going with the 2.5 fuel injected or older carbed motor? In 1987-1989 the Wranglers had the throttle body injection on the 2.5L motors....super simple injection system...I'd highly recommend it...especially since you'll have quite a temperature range, and likely altitude range where you're at...

-H-

[Alaska Mike]

The current engine I have lined up is a '92 Wrangler engine. A little more complicated, but a little more efficient and powerful. Parts are also easier to source, and while the initiatl install will be slightly more difficult, the final result should make it worth it.

[revor]

Here's some shots I have of the conversion. Well and my Jeep with the Jeep crane monted up just because it's kinda cool..

[Alaska Mike]

Well, I got the transmission and transfercase rebuilt, adapted, and stuck together, so I'm making progress. It's a nice little package, although compared to the stock drivetrain it's kinda bloated. With the 1" adapter length, overall length is right around 30" from the rear yoke to the tip of the input shaft. Not too bad. The girth and weight of this transmission is pretty impressive, and it's amazing how the transfercase shifter mount tucked neatly between the cast ribs on the transmission. I'll have to try to get some pictures posted.

Novak is waiting on my clutch disc, and then will be sending me the new bellhousing and the rest of the conversion pieces. I'm still finalizing the engine deal, but it looks like I'll be getting a '91 Jeep YJ 2.5L (OBDI MPFI) with around 90K on the clock, and the entire wiring harness and various other required parts (fuel pump...). Depending on how the engine runs, I may tear it down and clean it up a bit just to know what I'm dealing with. The starter will have to be replaced with a Mean Green unit, but I'm not too worried about it. The motor mounts are interesting, since the engine is offset to the other side in a YJ, but I think I can make them work with a little fabrication.

Work continues on the springs. I have 1 pack completed and the other curing before I apply the tape. Burning out the bushings took a while, as did bending the spring clamps into a U shape. Hopefully this will all be worth it in the long run. My snot it brown from all of the rust I'm grinding, which I never fail to gross my wife out with. "Look honey!"

[Hltoppr]

Make sure you look that motor over well. My 2.5 was pretty tired at 120K, even with the maintenance schedule I had her on....Great motor...but no TEQ...

-H-

[Alaska Mike]

Depending on my build schedule, I might be pulling it apart for a quick once-over and mild refresh. I may just slap her in and see what she does.

Right now I'm looking at physical mounting and other big issues, like what kind of fuel storage I'm going to run. I'm considering getting the fuel tank from under the passenger seat and installing a fuel cell in the back. I should be able to maintain the stock YJ in-tank pump/sender unit that way, and keep my wife from freaking out when she hears fuel sloshing around underneath her. All of that is in the "what if" stage, and I'll have to see what's available. I haven't looked too closely at the stock tank, but I'm leaning towards not using it in this application.

A lot depends on what kinds of goodies I get with the engine and how it looks. Since this swap hasn't been done before (as far as I know- why would anyone want to?), there are all sorts of things I'm figuring out as I go. I stop by a friend's shop periodically to look at a couple 4 cyl YJs he has in and take measurements and generally look things over. I'm sure I'm going to have plenty of stuff to engineer.

[Alaska Mike]

Well, here's the biggest bit of work I've accomplished so far:
http://home.gci.net/~lf4w/images/Rovertrans.jpg
I'm pretty happy with the way they came out, even though it took me a few months to get it done. Just not enough hours in the day.

I worked on my second spring pack today, and dinked around cleaning/painting some brackets and other small stuff. I still need to drill out my shackles for the greasable bushing bolts, since I got the course thread ones to save a bit of money. In the near future I'll be mounting the rear axle on the new fame and generally clearing out some space for the engine and bulkhead work that is looming. That front axle isn't looking any better, either.

Even if it takes forever, I want to do it once and be finished (ish).

[Mercedesrover]

Looks great, Mike. SM465, Dana-18, right? Nice. Did you get the adapter from Novak? They're a great company.

jim

[Alaska Mike]

Yep, it's a Novak adapter. The big selling point for me was the length of the adapter. It's only an inch long (instead of the 2.5"+ of other companies) and that makes the overall length of the assembly within 1.2" of the original transmission/transfercase. I also have their SM465 to Jeep MPFI 2.5L adapter kit (bellhousing, arm, clutch, T/O bearing, pilot bushing, slave cyl...) on the way now. The kit should make the swap less painful. Even though they are a Jeep swap company and don't know much about Rovers, they've been great to work with and have provided a lot of technical information.

I do have some concern about the front driveshaft hitting the crossmember, since the front output of the Spicer 18 transfercase sits back about 6" compared to the Rover transfercase. We'll see if I have to notch the crossmember and put in some angle iron.

My big goal now is to get a rolling chassis, or at least get the axle housings and springs mounted.

[Alaska Mike]

I might get a picture of the old transmission/transfercase combo next to the new (if I can get the time to pull the old one), but needless to say the SM465 dwarfs the Rover transmission.

[Mercedesrover]

I was going to ask why you went with the SM465 instead of the NP435 but I can see that the adapter for the 435/18 is a good deal thicker. Hard to go wrong with either tranny.

And you're right, it's amazing how huge these transmissions are compared to the original Rover tranny while not being any longer. With my Pangoin4x4 adapter between the 435 and the Series transmission the whole package is only 1/2" longer than stock. Pretty cool.

Keep up the good work.

jim

[Alaska Mike]

Actually, I was initially considering a T-18/19 or a NP435, but TeriAnn steered me towards the SM465 as an easy fit with the GM engines I was initially considering (2.5L Iron Duke and the 4.3L V6). I can still move that way if the Jeep engine doesn't pan out like I plan. As luck would have it, the SM465 adapter length and the cheap (and very clean) 465 I fell into pretty much sealed the deal.

I just got a message from a guy wanting to buy my old engine, transmission, and transfercase, so I may be able to offset some of the conversion expenses.

[Mercedesrover]

Does the Dana 18 have a provision for a parking brake?

[Alaska Mike]

I was waiting for someone to ask that. This particular Dana 18 doesn't, but I'm casually looking for a setup. I rarely use them, since they tend to freeze in the winter. When I need to keep the vehicle running on a incline, I drop wheelchocks or a big rock (The Gods Must be Crazy). Mostly I just shut it off in gear. I'm considering line-locks right now, but nothing is for sure at this point. I'm a little concerned about clearances/lengths with the whole engine/drivetrain assembly put together, so I haven't really looked that hard at a solution. My Jeep hasn't had a parking brake for the last decade. Just not a big thing with me, since I run manual transmissions and we don't have a safety inspection (emissions is a whole 'nother story).

[Yorker]

Isn't that the same adapter/tranny setup Peter Hope used with the 6.2 in his 88?

[Alaska Mike]

I've been looking at his site, but the info is kinda lean. I've heard rumors of people using Spicer 18s in Series rigs, but I haven't seen much evidence of it on the internet (photographic proof). I never like being the first guy to try out these things, so I try to look before I leap.

[Alaska Mike]

So, I got the rear springs rebuilt (finally), burnt/cut out the old bushings, installed the new greaseable poly bushings, and attached them to the frame. Quite a bit of energy was expended removing the old bushings, and then even more when it came to actually aligning the springs with the frame. Oh my aching back. I laid the axlehousing across the springs, but the wife called "time" and I had to stop for a while. Just as well- ubolts probably would have done me in. After the axle is fully mounted, I'll probably look at starting on the front axle. I really need to start bolting these parts on, just to make room on the garage floor.

Once the front axle is cleaned up and mounted, I can start looking at the bulkhead. The new footwells are still sitting in the box, and I have a whole lot of parts to strip off and clean up. I just haven't had the room to do it.

When I got home from work, there was a nice box from Novak waiting for me. All of the engine to transmission adapter kit. Guess the pile just got bigger.

At any rate, it's nice to see something actually bolted to the new frame. Makes me feel like I might actually get somewhere one day.

[Yorker]

I've been looking at his site, but the info is kinda lean. I've heard rumors of people using Spicer 18s in Series rigs, but I haven't seen much evidence of it on the internet (photographic proof). I never like being the first guy to try out these things, so I try to look before I leap.


He definitely used a Dana 18, I am sure of it. Though he may have made it in a dana 20 case so it would be stronger- Seems I remember readig about that upgrade somewhere- the "super" Dana 18 or something like that. Maybe it was the 5th generation Dana 18...

I've seen a couple others using Dana 18s over the years but they don't seem to be a popular swap- Everyone figures they might as well keep the Rover T case since it is one of the parts that is hard to fault. Dana 18s seem to have a reputation for case failure like the TLC t cases do- You never hear of a Rover case doing that for some reason.

[Alaska Mike]

The main place Dana 18 cases crack is right at the intermediate shaft, but that most often is from abuse and high horsepower. I don't think I'll have either problem.

If I had known more about the available adapters, I might have considered trying to rebuild the old case and source the missing parts (a shifter and some small brackets). However, a Spicer 18 is a lot easier to find parts for, and within the Jeep community it's a known quantity. So, chalk it up to ignorance on my part. Even now, knowing what I know, I'd probably still be torn. Novak makes a hell of an adapter.

[Yorker]

The main place Dana 18 cases crack is right at the intermediate shaft, but that most often is from abuse and high horsepower. I don't think I'll have either problem.

If I had known more about the available adapters, I might have considered trying to rebuild the old case and source the missing parts (a shifter and some small brackets). However, a Spicer 18 is a lot easier to find parts for, and within the Jeep community it's a known quantity. So, chalk it up to ignorance on my part. Even now, knowing what I know, I'd probably still be torn. Novak makes a hell of an adapter.



Yeah and that is IF you can get a series T case adapter without having to make it yourself. Timm Cooper makes them IF you can get ahold of him, I think he was asking $800 for them maybe more. Ike Goss did a run of the NP435 ones and they weren't cheap either when compared to more common swap stuff.

Maybe there haven't been as many blown up series T cases simply because there aren't that many out there being abused with high horsepower rigs? I don't know... If I was going to change that much though I'd have been tempted to use a NP205 or 300 or other straight through t-case and use a centered rear axle from a Toyota minitruck or something like that.

[Alaska Mike]

I seriously considered using a centered output transfercase (quieter, stronger...), but it would require chassis mods on my 88, as well as the replacement of at least the rear axle (and matching gearing). Running Toyota truck components was also a consideration, but the idea was discarded for length reasons. The SM465/Spicer 18 combo was a tight, clean package that was near-stock in length, while providing a much stronger and maintainable (locally available parts) drivetrain.

I've seen Spicer 18s doing well behind big-blocks. The larger intermediate shaft models seem to last the longest, and I used a really good (Novak) rebuild kit to bring it back to life. I've seen the kits with the rebar disguised as an intermediate shaft, and the results are not pretty. I would have rather reused the stock one- at least it wouldn't disintegrate.

Right now I have to sort out some issues with Novak. It looks like they machined my bellhousing's input bearing retainer hole a bit too small (bored to 4 11/16” instead of 5 1/8”). They also left out the special pilot bushing and throw-out bearing. I'm not in too much of a hurry, so it doesn't matter that much. Novak is a good company, so we'll see how far they're willing to make this right.

[Yorker]

Why would it require any special chassis mods?

I was thinking something along the lines of Matt Stoffregen's Series II:
http://www.4wdandsportutility.com/features/rover/0611_4wd_1957_range_rover/index.html

[Alaska Mike]

Right behind the transfercase on my Series III is a crossmember that would have to be removed or seriously modified to allow a center output.

The rear driveshaft on that Series II is too short in my opinion, and overall the concept looked like too much effort for the finished product. Going the way I did allows me several GM engine choices in the future should the current plan not pan out. It's always nice to have options.

I think for my current build philosophy, the Rover axles will do just fine with the Seriestrek 24 spline shafts in the rear. Gearing is still up for debate (4.7 or 3.54?), but I really like the full-floating, 3rd member design. With the small tires I have planned, either is completely doable.

[Yorker]

you mean this crossmember?
http://www.quietcanyon.com/images/LandMuttPhotos/lrchassis%20align.jpg

[Alaska Mike]

Yeah, for some reason the measurements didn't work out and I would have been square in the middle of that crossmember with the output shaft. Is that the Toyota truck driveline, or is it from another model?

[Alaska Mike]

Wait- looked more closely and tracked down the website and it's a Jeep driveline. Glad to see I'm not the first one to swap in a Jeep 2.5L. You don't know how happy that makes me.

[Yorker]

http://www.quietcanyon.com/STRlandmutt.htm

[ntsqd]

A trick that I've seen done with the D18's is to convert the center gear to use tapered roller bearings and a custom shaft that has the ability to adjust the pre-load on those bearings (and take the thrust loads rather than putting them into the case). As I recall it was Jack O'Brien (sp?) that was doing the conversion. It is possible to do this mod on your own (or hire a machine shop to do that part), but an good understanding of design and mfg process' is required.

Recommend comparing a D20 case to the D18 case. The 20 looks to be an exact fit and a more robust part. Also suggest looking into a stout "oil pan" for either case. Ideally such would seal with an O-Ring and not a gasket so that the 'pan' becomes structure across the bottom of the case.

[Alaska Mike]

The Dana 20 is a center-output case, while the Spicer 18 is an offset case. While some internal parts can be swapped over (to achieve a lower low range in the Dana 20), they are actually different animals.

Here's a little information from our friends at Novak, who know more about these than I ever will (cut n' pasted from:http://www.novak-adapt.com/knowledge/model_18.htm)

Versions
There are four major styles of the Model 18.
Early Military, 1941-1945
Military versions of the 18 built for the MB & GPW wartime Jeeps have a 1.97:1 ratio low range and a 1:1 high range. These early versions featured a 3/4" diameter intermediate idler shaft and dual shifters. These transfer cases were only married to the Borg Warner T84 three speed transmission and had a 3-5/32" input locating bore.

Early Civilian, 1945-1946
A handful of the earliest civilian Dana 18's that were married to the side-shift version of the T90 feature 2.43:1 low range and have a 3/4" intermediate shaft. Relatively few examples of these exist but the reader should be aware of it. They were developed for the prototype 6x6 Tugs (only 16 of these were made). This transfer case came in the preproduction 1944 CJ-1 and 1944-1945 CJ-2 and were installed in the CJ2A up through serial number CJ2A-24196.

Mid Civilian, 1946-1955
With military restrictions freed up and Willys eyeing the civilian, utility and agricultural markets, the Dana 18 was improved with a lower 2.46:1 low range gear ratio. The intermediate idler shaft was increased to 1-1/8", using caged needle roller bearings. The rear PTO port began to see serious use as a driver of accessories ranging from pumps, winches, generators, farm implements, etc. The locator bore continued to be the 3-5/32" diameter. Casting numbers of C18-15-10 have been seen on these versions.

Later Civilian, 1955-1971
In 1955 (this varies by a year or so on some models; no doubt while Willys-Overland was using up its remaining inventory) Jeeps received the Dana 18 with an 1-1/4" intermediate shaft. This improvement was not indended to increase the shear strength of the pin, but to increase the bearing area and the number of bearings. Free needle rollers, then, replaced the earlier and significantly fewer caged needle rollers. The locator bore continued to be the 3-5/32" diameter.

Final Civilian, 1966-1971
The "large case" version of the Dana 18 was the most improved version of all. It was only found behind the Buick V6 engine with its T86 and T14 transmissions. The case casting used was that from the Dana 18's progenitor, the Dana Spicer Model 20. This case featured a 4" locating bore and a single stick shifter and new front output cap. The front output assembly did not provision for a shifter mounting point, as the shifter was anchored to a transmission bracket. The internals were essentially identical with the standard Dana 18. This version is best thought of as Dana 18 guts in a Dana 20 shell. Individuals can build a "Super 18" by copying this version.

Strength
It is nearly remarkable how much power this compact transfer case can transmit and sustain. It is not so rare to see them handling Big Block grade power and deep, compound gearing.

The 18 is not without a fuse when under extreme service; its offset design causes the reactive driven torque of the driveshafts to apply a large upward moment force against the case and the case can split between the intermediate shaft bore and the PTO port or the case bottom opening. Gears (as with any gearbox) may break under some outstanding circumstances. Also, the forces of the front helical gearset are not captured and balanced by the rear spur gearset, causing these forces to be applied against the case, which may stretch it to a failure point. However, these situations are quite rare and essentially non-issues for the appropriate driver, Jeep and terrain.

The "large case" 18 is the stronger of the lot, though not dramatically so. Its case casting was improved in both engineering terms and in is method of casting.
__________________________________________________ _______________
The version I have is the "Later Civilian" out of a 1963 Scout 80. While not the "ultimate Spicer 18", it certainly is a good design. It originally sat behind a IH 152 and T-90, which didn't seem to stress it all that much. I replaced all of the bearings and bushings, as well as the intermediate shaft and all sorts of small parts. I figured it was due, after 45 years of service without a rebuild. It turns and shifts smoother than a lot of rebuilt Dana 20s and 300s I've seen, so hopefully that trend will continue when the torque is applied. Nice to dream anyway...

[ntsqd]

When I had a Willys Pick-up I did some research on the 18, and then again when a friend started his MB build. The Achilles Heel of the 18 seemed to first be the needle bearings for the intermediate gear due to the power flowing over them. The next issue was the case breaking. The later models with their bigger intermediate shaft sizes & stronger castings were progressively better, but the "O'Brien" mod was the best way to go (at the time of the research anyway) for further improved longevity. The shaft's mod was required to put the tapered bearing thrust loads into the shaft itself as none of the cases could handle it on their own. Some D20 owners had done the mod as a way of increasing the power capacity & reliability to the front output.

I had intended to do the tapered bearings mod with a D20 case for the truck's D18, but had to sell off the whole deal when I went back to school.

BC Broncos offers or used to offer a 300M output for the Early Bronco D20 variant. Not sure how interchangeable those are with D18 rear outputs.

[Alaska Mike]

Since the plan at this time is to use a relatively small engine, the stock Dana 18 should prove sufficient. Even with the torque multiplication from the SM465, I doubt I'll be able to do much damage to the case. I generally don't romp on my vehicles, which seems to be another cause of the failure.

Time will tell if I made the right choice. I seriously doubt I made a bad choice in drivetrain, but there very well may be better choices. We'll see.

[Yorker]

Well- with the money you probably saved by using the Dana 18 instead of the Series Land Rover case you could probably afford 2-3 spare t cases anyway. They usually go for $50-$100 around here though they are getting a little rarer now that the price of scrap is way up and all the neat old cars and forgotten projects are being hauled to the crusher.

[Mercedesrover]

Steel is over $300 a ton right now. Crazy. I know guys that are going to old farm auctions and buying old junk for scrap value alone.

[Alaska Mike]

Last time I looked at them (mid-east and in Alaska), I couldn't find one for below $450. Since then I've run across a couple empty cases locally for free, but passed on them because they were the older versions (smaller intermediate). They certainly aren't as common or cheap as they once were, so I rebuilt mine with the intention of making it as long-lasting as possible. While certainly far from unsupportable, they are getting more rare in parts vehicles.

A lot of great potential project rigs are getting scrapped up here as well, put on barges and sent overseas if the owner or junkyard doesn't feel they are worth anything. Kinda kills me, since a lot of good parts are going away with all of that sheetmetal. Why can't they just take the econo boxes and other worthless rigs, and leave the good stuff for us?

[Alaska Mike]

Well, I contacted Novak and I'll be shipping my bearing retainer and the bellhousing back to them (on their dime). They'll machine both to fit and ship them (with the pilot bushing and throw-out bearing) back to me.

Slight side-story on this kit. Apparently they're discontinuing it because the bellhousings are becoming hard to get (GM no longer makes them). I doubt they were ever that big of a seller, since there are other options for Wrangler transmissions out there. Works for me, though.

I still need to compare the bore of the clutch slave cylinder to that of the stock Rover master cylinder and see if they will work together well. The connecting hose/lines should be easy enough to modify if required.

[Yorker]

Well, I contacted Novak and I'll be shipping my bearing retainer and the bellhousing back to them (on their dime). They'll machine both to fit and ship them (with the pilot bushing and throw-out bearing) back to me.

Slight side-story on this kit. Apparently they're discontinuing it because the bellhousings are becoming hard to get (GM no longer makes them). I doubt they were ever that big of a seller, since there are other options for Wrangler transmissions out there. Works for me, though.

I still need to compare the bore of the clutch slave cylinder to that of the stock Rover master cylinder and see if they will work together well. The connecting hose/lines should be easy enough to modify if required.


What is the bolt pattern on the block of your 4cylinder? Is thatthe same as the "60 degree "bolt pattern?

[Alaska Mike]

I don't think it's a similar bolt pattern to the 60 degree V6, but I'm not completely sure what it originally went to. Here's the link to the kit:
http://www.novak-adapt.com/catalog/kit_b150gm.htm

We'll see how it all goes once it comes back.

[ntsqd]

Pic of the bellhousing looks like a GM 60* V6 bolt pattern to me. Could be wrong, been there before.......

[Yorker]

Hmmm I think it is- somewhere i had a list of all engines that use that pattern- there were some neat surprises like the Norstar V8. I was hunting for an S10 bellhousing a while ago to mate to a SM420 and another engine with that bolt pattern.

[edit]:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes, the CJ's with the Pontiac 2.5 have a V8 Chevy bolt pattern.
The AMC 2.5 has a 60 degree Chevy V6 bolt pattern. You can take a bellhousing from an S10 with a 2.8 and adapt several heavy transmission to the AMC 2.5http://forums.off-road.com/jeep-short-wheelbase/122612-2-8l-replace-my-2-5l.html

[Alaska Mike]

Well, a little interweb research shows that it is in fact that bellhousing. I think the modifications they mention are to open up the input shaft bore a bit. Looks like I may have another engine option open, even if it's one that I don't particularly like.

[Yorker]

Well, a little interweb research shows that it is in fact that bellhousing. I think the modifications they mention are to open up the input shaft bore a bit. Looks like I may have another engine option open, even if it's one that I don't particularly like.


There are TONS of engines with that pattern- it is a cool bellhousing to get! I've been sort of looking for one on and off for a few years.

I'll see if I can dig up the list of engines that use that bolt pattern- there were a ton. e.g. Buick 3800 supercharged ...

[edit]
http://members.shaw.ca/betterthanyoutoo/bellhousing/SCP.jpg

Used on Chevy 60 degree V6's, 4 cylinders and other FWD engines
2.0L (OHV I4), 2.2L (OHV I4), 2.5L (OHV "Iron Duke" I4), 2.8L (60* V6), 3.0L (90* V6), 3.1L & 3100 (60* V6), 3.3L & 3300 (90* V6), 3.4 & 3400 (60* V6), 3500 (60* V6), 3.6L (60* V6), 3800 (90*V6), 3.9L (60* V6), 4.1L V8, 4.5L V8, 4.9L V8
http://members.shaw.ca/betterthanyoutoo/bellhousing/gm_bellhousing_bolt_patterns.htm

[Yorker]

96-99 Dodge Dakota 2.5L bellhousing: Connects all to any Jeep 2.5L L4. Because of its GM inherited 60 degree bolt pattern, it also works with any Buick FWD V6 and supercharged V6, any Chevrolet 2.8/3.1/3.4 V6, any Cadillac 4.1/4.5/4.9 V8, any Isuzu 3.5/3.5 DOHC V6 and with a minor modification (moving a bolt hole), any Olds Aurora DOHC V8 and Cadillac DOHC Northstar V8.


http://www.4x4wire.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB86&Number=327122&Forum=All_Forums&Words=dakota%20bellhousing&Match=Entire%20Phrase&Searchpage=1&Limit=25&Old=6months&Main=327122&Search=true#Post327122

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=181361&highlight=ax15+bellhousing

http://jeep.off-road.com/jeep/article/articleDetail.jsp?id=261497

[Alaska Mike]

Good resources there. I'm not sure about the grinding they did to clear the stock starter though on one of those threads. Seems like it would expose the clutch to dirt and water unless you were really careful about fitting. I'll stick with the recommended Mean Green.

[Alaska Mike]

Well, I ordered the Mean Green starter the other day, just because I found a decent deal on one. They don't come cheap, but hopefully it will be the last starter I ever buy for the vehicle.

A guy dropped by and looked at the Rover carcass, and he'll be buying the engine, transmission, transfercase, and various odds and ends. Add that to the small parts I've sold so far, and I have back the initial purchase price. What I'll likely have left over is the old frame and bulkhead, and I may see if there's someone out there on Craigslist that wants them. The less I have to haul away, the better.

I started pulling the steering column out, a job made easier by the pre-lubricated bolts that seem to be common on this Rover. However, there is 35 years of grease and dirt hiding all sorts of attaching bolts, so I've used the "tug and search" method of finding them all. I'll get there.

[Mercedesrover]

Well, I ordered the Mean Green starter the other day, just because I found a decent deal on one. They don't come cheap, but hopefully it will be the last starter I ever buy for the vehicle.

Hard to go wrong with a Mean Green. I run one on both of my trucks and I'm a big fan. A big bite but worth it in the end.

jim

[Alaska Mike]

That's what I was thinking. They have a bit of a track record now, and I haven't heard much negative about them. I fire up the Jeep in gear all of the time when in low range (carb and rocks), and I bet this thing will work like gangbusters.

[Alaska Mike]

I spent 8 hours working on the Rover today, and I didn't bolt on anything new. I completely gutted the old chassis, and now I have boxes of brackets and bolts and all sorts of neat things that I will forget what they're for.

After I remover the front axle, I put the old frame on short jackstands. All that remains bolted to it are the engine, transmission, and transfercase. I cut off the frame at the crossmember just behind the transfercase, and now the carcass takes up much less room in the driveway. When I started cutting at the top, I was getting a lot of good, thick metal. I was really thinking I was screwing up a decent frame. Then I got to the bottom, and I tore through the rusted scale with my bare hands. Kinda sad- rusted through from the inside out and no way to tell without a very detailed search with a hammer and a screwdriver. Some spots were good, some were tissue paper. At any rate, I'm glad I opted to replace the frame. A guy should be by later this month to buy the remaining parts on the chassis, and then it's off to the recyclers with the rest.

If the frame wasn't scary enough, what I saw on the front axle stopped me cold. One of the ubolts was too long, so a previous owner had stacked about 10 washers on each side. I guess he ran out of washers, so he jammed a screwdriver between the axle and the ubolt and cranked it down. Somehow I don't think that's in the green bible.

Well, that should be enough wrenching to tide me over for a while. My hands are seriously ripped up, and I need some time to heal.

[Mercedesrover]

so he jammed a screwdriver between the axle and the ubolt and cranked it down. Somehow I don't think that's in the green bible.

No, actually, that procedure is in the Green Bible.

[Alaska Mike]

Wow, there literally is everything in that book. Even scary, hack-job repairs. I guess you can adjust shim height by choosing different screwdrivers.

[Alaska Mike]

Funny I should mention the Green Bible. I was up in Fairbanks for my sister-in-law's college graduation, and we dropped by the Barnes and Noble to kill some time. I don't know why, but I stopped by the automotive section. They are usually worthless for vehicle specific books, especially for Land Rovers, but there was a Series III Green Bible on the shelf. The only Land Rover book of any kind in the store. Now my library is one book larger and theirs is one book smaller.

Today I started tearing apart the scary front axle. As I mentioned, there was a screwdriver stuck under one of the ubolts as a spacer. The swivels balls are in seriously bad shape (groooves worn in them) and I was expecting a load of grease in them instead of oil. Those seals wouldn't have held much in or out. As it turned out, there was nothing in the swivel balls but the faint residue of oil. The bearings are pitted and noisy, but not chunky, and the axle shaft I've taken out looks to be in good shape. The hubs look decent, and the spindle wasn't too bad either. Despite the obvious lack of common sense and horrible maintenance practices of the previous owner, I still have some good stuff to work with.

I have almost all of the parts I need to rebuild the swivel balls and hubs, thanks to some eBay shopping, and a few small bits and pieces should round it out. I found a Range Rover 10 spline diff locally for fairly cheap, so I'll probably rebuild that and slap it in.

My best guesstimate is that I'll have a rolling chassis by the time the snow flies, and if I'm lucky I'll have the engine/transmission/transfercase installed. Then I'll roll it outside and cover it up for a long winter's nap. I need the garage space.

[Michael Slade]

No, actually, that procedure is in the Green Bible.

Yup. There's been worse crap come out of that Solihull factory .

[Alaska Mike]

Well, the screwdriver was pretty rusty and the ubolts were pretty dinged up, so I took the conservative route and ordered new ubolts and have a brand new screwdriver to replace it. I went with a Craftsman screwdriver over the stock Stanley. The Craftsman handle is a little harder rubber, which should improve steering response.

I also ordered new seals and other goodies for the front axle from British Pacific. I included a note about how their decision to help TeriAnn affected my decision to order from them. That's the kind of business I like to support.

The front springs are in better shape than the rears, perhaps due to the constant oil bath they received. I'll pull them apart and clean them up anyway. I don't have the plastic right now, so I'll probably just concentrate on the disassembly and refurbishment.

My tie rod and drag link have no grease fitting on them, but they seem to be in somewhat decent shape and more or less straight. I defer upgrading until after the steering is sorted out.

Now all I need is some time to get some work done.

[revor]

Well, the screwdriver was pretty rusty and the ubolts were pretty dinged up, so I took the conservative route and ordered new ubolts and have a brand new screwdriver to replace it. I went with a Craftsman screwdriver over the stock Stanley. The Craftsman handle is a little harder rubber, which should improve steering response.

I would have thought that a build of this magnitude would have warranted at the very least a Snap-On if not perhaps a period Sheffield!

[Alaska Mike]

I would have thought that a build of this magnitude would have warranted at the very least a Snap-On if not perhaps a period Sheffield!
This isn't Mercedesrover's build. I have a budget to stick to. I'm sure I will get a load of flak from some because it isn't "correct", but I'm more concerned about performance. Besides, I was concerned that the Snap-On's durometer rating was a little too high.

[Mercedesrover]

I've broken a couple screwdrivers on the trail, even a Snap-On one. I've since upgraded to an all-steel pry bar. It's increased my un-sprung weight but the peace of mind knowing I won't break another it worth it.

http://www.vandykes.com/images/products/02021295-lg.jpg

[ntsqd]

Take some weight off. (http://www.materials.com/Titanium_tools.HTML)
:)

[revor]

This isn't Mercedesrover's build. I have a budget to stick to. I'm sure I will get a load of flak from some because it isn't "correct", but I'm more concerned about performance. Besides, I was concerned that the Snap-On's durometer rating was a little too high.

I understand, and seeing as the vehicle will be part Jeep I suppose that sticking a Sheffield in there would be wasteful just to appease purists..

I dunno about the crowbar thing. Wouldn't it place undue burdon on the steering? Of course Jim is using a Scout box so that shouldn't be a problem.

[Alaska Mike]

I'm using a Scout box too. Why re-invent the wheel here?

[revor]

I'm using a Scout box too. Why re-invent the wheel here?

In that case you could use the crowbar.

[Mercedesrover]

Of course Jim is using a Scout box so that shouldn't be a problem.

Actually, a Yota box. Maybe I should drop back down to a screwdriver?

[Alaska Mike]

3/8" breaker bar, according to my Green Bible.

[revor]

Yep 3/8 might be the way to go!! You will like that Mike! My Jeep with the saginaw (as you probably know) would steer through the rocks with 1 finger.. Caddy Steering we used to call it..

Jim. is that an 80 Series Box you are using? I am curious about the piston Diameter (estimate) for the power assist.. You know I'm getting old and my arm strength isn't what it used to be...

[Alaska Mike]

I got a set of OME shocks off an eBay auction that were supposed to be for a Series rig. I took a leap of faith, and they turned out to be 5 rear shocks for an Isuzu Trooper (N15s). 20.16" extended and 12.75" collapsed, which matches exactly nothing on any Series rig I can find. Oh well...

[Mercedesrover]

Jim. is that an 80 Series Box you are using? I am curious about the piston Diameter (estimate) for the power assist.. You know I'm getting old and my arm strength isn't what it used to be...

FJ60 box. Easy to find, cheap and fits like a glove. The Toyota high-pressure line even threads into the Benz p/s pump.

http://seriestrek.com/109/steering5.jpg

[ntsqd]

Looks like a Scout box would be problematic with it's front pointing pitman arm. Isn't that a bump stop bracket on the frame about where such a box would have to go?

[Mercedesrover]

You need to use a forward-facing pitman arm. That's why only a Scout or a FJ60 box will work, (as far as I know). Both are about the same dimensions but the Toyota box is just easier to find for me.

Here's a picture of the Toyota box in my 88".

http://seriestrek.com/steering/steering9.jpg

[ntsqd]

Interesting. I really had to look to see that this wasn't a Scout box with a non-stock arm on it.

[Mercedesrover]

The nice thing about the Toyota box is you can use the Toyota pitman are too. The angle and length are right and the taper is the same as the Rover tie rod end.

[revor]

The nice thing about the Toyota box is you can use the Toyota pitman are too. The angle and length are right and the taper is the same as the Rover tie rod end.

Very nice! I do like that pitman arm, the Scout arm can create an adventure, nothing that isn't difficul to remedy but that 60 arm is perfect!

[ntsqd]

Very nice! I do like that pitman arm, the Scout arm can create an adventure, nothing that isn't difficul to remedy but that 60 arm is perfect!
You don't like 6 foot long pitman arms? ;)

They're a pain when the box is still on a Scout. IH managed to get the knuckle steering arms in *just* the right place to interfere with the diff cover. So those are long to get enough full lock clearance, necessitating the long pitman arm.

[revor]

I used the appropriate tools to make mine a more reasonable length.:hehe:

[Yorker]

I got a set of OME shocks off an eBay auction that were supposed to be for a Series rig. I took a leap of faith, and they turned out to be 5 rear shocks for an Isuzu Trooper (N15s). 20.16" extended and 12.75" collapsed, which matches exactly nothing on any Series rig I can find. Oh well...


were those the ones that were"hung on the wall of the shop for a couple years" or something like that? I think I saw those

[Alaska Mike]

Yep. Live and learn.

[Alaska Mike]

Well, the guy won't take returns on the shocks, so I blasted him with negative feedback (kind of a limp weapon if you ask me). He said he got them from Atlantic British that way, which the guys at Atlantic British just laughed at. I don't know who is telling me the truth and who is lying, but right now I don't have a whole lot of options.

The lengths I have are as follows (from http://www.lazykracker.com/ome2005.html):

N15 (what I got from eBay): 20.16" extended, 12.75" collapsed
N41 (88 front- British Pacific): 19.46" extended, 12.05" collapsed
N78 (88 front- Wise Owl, RN): 17.43" extended, 11.19" collapsed
N85 (88 rear- Wise Owl, RN): 22.89" extended, 13.92" collapsed
N90 (88 rear- Most vendors): 22.70" extended, 13.92" collapsed


I'm thinking what I'm seeing from the vendors are designed to work with parabolic (lift) springs, not my semi-saggy stock springs. If that's the case, I might be able to use a pair in the rear and try to sell the rest. I do have an offer from a local guy to buy two of my shocks for what I paid for them, which would help a little. Unfortunately, any measurements I make now will be incorrect, since I don't have any weight on the springs except for the frame itself.

Thoughts?

[ntsqd]

Weight on the springs doesn't mean anything to my way of thinking about shock mounts. I worry about compression damage first. Set the mounts so that at full stuff - max articulation - whatever is worst case so that they can not bottom out when the bump stops are blown off the frame and the axle is metal to metal with the frame. I adjust my margin based on my confidence in my arriving at the max possible stuff. This usually ranges 3/8"-3/4" depending on how close the mounts are to the springs. Further away = more margin.

Then look at if you've got enough shock stroke so that they are not your droop limiters.

[Alaska Mike]

Well, I figure the check straps will limit my downward travel, and since I have bottomed a shock a time or two and broken mounts and bent shocks I guess that's my biggest concern. That's why I was looking at using the N15s in the rear, since the compressed and extended lengths are shorter than the OMEs from the various vendors. We'll see how that goes...

[revor]

I know this sounds silly but have you actually fitted these to say the upper shock mount and measured the distance from the non mounted eye to the lower shock mounting point and compared that to where the bumpstop will stop the axles upward movement?

[TeriAnn]

I know this sounds silly but have you actually fitted these to say the upper shock mount and measured the distance from the non mounted eye to the lower shock mounting point and compared that to where the bumpstop will stop the axles upward movement?

And don't forget the rubber bump stop compresses. I doesn't hurt to take a measurement AND subtract another inch or two to get the minimum shock length needed.

PERSONALLY, I suggest just punting and install new shock mounts farther apart. It is already pretty much a given that Series shocks are both too short and too long if you have either Parabolic or new semi elliptic springs that have the correct rate for the weight of your Series rig. If you have old semi elliptic springs with the leaves mostly rusted together you have plenty of movement in the shocks. Same as if you fit one ton springs on a topless 88.

[ntsqd]

And don't forget the rubber bump stop compresses. I doesn't hurt to take a measurement AND subtract another inch or two to get the minimum shock length needed.
This is why I recommended setting the length without the bump stops in place. Generally the worst case will compress the stop 1/2 of it's at-rest height. However, if you rely in the stop being there to not damage the shock, then when it isn't there you're in trouble. Judgment call on whether your use is likely to blow the stop(s) off or not. In my use it is a very likely event so I choose to set things sans the stops. Engineers call that "Conservative Design." :)

[Alaska Mike]

I considered moving the shock mounts to a different location, but for now I think I'll leave them where they are. I have my Jeep for the hardcore stuff, so maximum articulation isn't required.

[Alaska Mike]

Well, I just got back from a trip to Seattle and decided to do a little work on the front springs and axle housing. I painted the housing and while it was drying I started on the springs. I hadn't noticed before, but the front spring clamps were held on with rivets instead of flat head bolts like the rears. They were also a lot less durable, and broke as I tried to pry them apart.

Well, that's enough work for one day.

Now I need to decide whether I want to replace the front springs altogether or have a local spring shop fab me some new clamps. I need to do some pricing, but new stock springs are looking pretty good right now. Any suggestions? Parabolics are pretty much out of the question, but I think I can squeak by with some new fronts. British Pacific sells handed sets, which I want to avoid.

[TeriAnn]

British Pacific sells handed sets, which I want to avoid.

That's an argument I have been loosing with them for decades. See if you can order either 2 right hand sides or to left hand sides.

UK spec for 88s & 109 regulars have a higher rate spring on the right side because the battery, fuel tank and driver all all on that side. The extra spring is supposed to allow the vehicle to sit level when the driver is aboard and not list to the right.

LHD 88's & 109 regulars have the driver on opposite side as the fuel tank & battery so the load is more balanced side to side. I've never made that argument stick with them. Please don't quote me on that as they already know where I stand on hander springs. Quoting me wouldn't help.

Of if you want to play some games, try putting 88 rear springs on the front . It would mean new spring mounts but the longer springs increase front articulation

[Alaska Mike]

I wondered about that, since a lot of their customers have NAS LHD models. Oh well, I guess I'll look around for another vendor. The Wise Owl guys don't sell stock springs anymore, which leaves me with east coast Land Rover parts houses and larger shipping costs. I considered getting another set of used springs, but they aren't that expensive and my time is at a premium right now. I think I had 8 or more hours invested in the rear springs by the time they got all cleaned up. Those bushings were a pain.

[Alaska Mike]

Well, I finally cleared some room in the garage to do a little work on the Rover. The kids bikes and other stuff was starting to pile up, and my time has been really short lately.

Anyway, I finally dug down to the chassis and started putting the rear axle together. I had to search through umpteen billion boxes for the parts, but I managed to clean and paint the old stuff and bolt on the new. I was making good progress until I noticed my 24 spline Disco I 3rd member didn't have a fill plug like my Series 10 spline 3rd member, and there wasn't one on the housing either. I came up with a solution that isn't completely ideal, but seems to work. I removed one of the studs (at roughly the same level as the original fill plug) and welded on a nut on the inside of the housing, using a standard 3/8" bolt as a fill plug. I might have to revisit it if filling becomes a chore, but I think it might work.

This would be going a lot faster if I didn't have to clean and paint every part I remove. I thought the oil and grease residue was supposed to keep rust off, but there's a good layer of corrosion beneath the goop.

I'll probably tackle the front axle within the next week or so, then move onto the bulkhead... eventually.

[ntsqd]

I'm afraid that a 5/16" ID hole (3/8" NC tap drill size) is going to be too small given the viscosity of gear lube. I'm not seeing a clean solution. The best that I can offer is if already assembled that you pressurize the assembly with air while drilling & tapping at least a 1/2" NPT hole (45/64" tap drill). Coat the tap with white grease too.

[Alaska Mike]

I was planning on cutting a short piece of brake line (as large a diameter as I can fit) and using that to feed gear lube through the hole with my pump. That would only be slightly less than the current ID of my pump's hose, and larger than the outlet of the pump.

We'll see...

[Oilburner]

You can get a weld-on bung at hydraulic supply houses that has NPT thread. Drill a hole in the axle case, weld on the bung, and put a pipe plug in. Tada, nice big filler that you can geet some gear oil through.

I have used a 3/8 bolt as a fill plug on one of the axles I built and it wasn't that bad with syn oil. Just remove another one to allow the air to escape quickly.

[Alaska Mike]

I finally got around to ordering some front springs so I can do the front axle. I also ordered some shocks for it, opting for now for the stock-type shock since I don't have performance springs. We'll see how it goes. I'm going to do some horse-trading for the 10 spline/3.54 front diff, and start cleaning some old parts to see what I can save.

I called the guy who has my engine, and I'm going to look at it on Sunday. A complete, running, sub 100K '92 MPFI 2.5L Jeep YJ engine with a complete wiring harness for $200. Even if I have to rebuild it, it's still a steal. He'll even deliver it. I'll probably mock it up to the transmission and transfercase to I can figure out the motor mounts and other fabrication work. It will be nice to have it on-hand.

[Scott Brady]

Cool!

Thanks for the updates Mike :)

[Alaska Mike]

Yeah, I got so caught up in the biking thing that I didn't have any time or money for the Rover, so there it sat for most of the summer. Now that the shoulder season is almost here (too cold to bike, too warm to ski), hopefully I can pull off some project time to get something done. I don't expect to have the same results in the same time as MercedesRover, but hopefully I'll get a reliable truck that will last for years. No hurry on my part.

[Alaska Mike]

Ouch. The shipping on my two front springs was more than the cost of the springs themselves. Oh well, I need them, so a few projects will get delayed a bit. I just want a rolling chassis so I can work on it a little easier.

In other news, I brought home the Jeep 2.5L engine the other day. Still debating on rebuilding it, as I want the vehicle to provide the most reliable platform it can. In for a penny, in for a gazillion dollars. The wiring harness is pretty complete, from headlights to tailights, so I'll be slowly pruning unnecessary wires from it and grafting on others as I see fit. It's an OBDI engine, which means fewer sensors and less wiring (also less diagnostic capability), but I think it will be a fairly straightforward swap. That is, for a MPFI engine.

I also have been looking at Jeep CJ 15 gallon fuel tanks to add to my capacity and simplify my fuel system. I will likely remove the stock tank and use the existing gas filler port for electrical or water connections- maybe an onboard shower or some other ExPo fluff. The stock tank is in OK shape, but it's on the small side and I can use the space for other stuff. In an 88, every inch counts. Thanks to TeriAnn's site for the Jeep tank idea, which will make installing the engine that much easier.

So, with the rebuild possibly pending and a lot of wrenching to be done, my progress may be even more sporatic as funds and time permit. If it were just bolting on new or clean parts that would be one thing, but the scraping, grinding, stripping, cleaning, and painting are eating up all of my work days. Not a lot to show for a lot of time invested. Still, I take pride in every little step of the way. Buidling a vehicle bolt by bolt is an interesting experience.

[Josh]

I also have been looking at Jeep CJ 15 gallon fuel tanks to add to my capacity and simplify my fuel system. I will likely remove the stock tank and use the existing gas filler port for electrical or water connections- maybe an onboard shower or some other ExPo fluff. The stock tank is in OK shape, but it's on the small side and I can use the space for other stuff. In an 88, every inch counts. Thanks to TeriAnn's site for the Jeep tank idea, which will make installing the engine that much easier.



Any plans for the stock LR tank if you swap it? Let me know if it needs a home.

Kind regards, Josh

[Alaska Mike]

Any plans for the stock LR tank if you swap it? Let me know if it needs a home.

Kind regards, Josh
Let me get the other tank in, and we'll talk.

[Yorker]

I also have been looking at Jeep CJ 15 gallon fuel tanks to add to my capacity and simplify my fuel system. I will likely remove the stock tank and use the existing gas filler port for electrical or water connections- maybe an onboard shower or some other ExPo fluff. The stock tank is in OK shape, but it's on the small side and I can use the space for other stuff. In an 88, every inch counts. Thanks to TeriAnn's site for the Jeep tank idea, which will make installing the engine that much easier .



The space the original gas tank used to take up would be a nice spot for another tool box mirroring the driver's side one or a fresh water storage tank... The CJ rear tank is a neat mod on an 88".

[Alaska Mike]

The space the original gas tank used to take up would be a nice spot for another tool box mirroring the driver's side one or a fresh water storage tank... The CJ rear tank is a neat mod on an 88".
That's my thought. My experience is that sitting over a sloshing gas tank is unsettling for some people. However, a small poly water tank (say 5 gallons) with a hot water shower system would earn all sorts of bonus points with the wife.

Right now I'm deciding on how to proceed with the engine. The costs to rebuild an engine through a machine shop have skyrocketed up here in the last 10 years, so I'm exploring my options. I could certainly run the engine as-is, but I'd rather have the piece of mind that comes with knowing the condition before I go out on the road- especially on an extended trip.

In for a penny, in for a gazillion dollars...

[ntsqd]

Just to play devil's advocate for a moment; would there be a better choice if you had to go with a well done rebuild?

Seems like you're teetering on the brink of possibly being money ahead with another choice. Not that I think that you should have a V8 in there (I read that part & agree with the logic), just that perhaps there is a choice that would be less costly to rebuild and that would result in the power & fuel consumption numbers that you're looking for.

FFT anyway.....

[Alaska Mike]

I certainly have considered another engine, but it's not that this particular engine is expensive to rebuild- all engines are expensive to rebuild these days. I could save $500-$750 by going with a parts store remanufactured engine, but I know from hard experience where that leads. Soft valve seats, poor machining... it kills you in the long run and ends up costing much more than a quality local rebuild. The shop I'm looking at does a lot of race engines and has an excellent reputation around town, and you pay for it. The shop is extremely clean, and the equipment is top notch. They are only about $250 more than their competition, which don't have nearly the reputation.

I could also do a quick hone and rebuild the top end, which would save a lot in the short run. It wouldn't give me a warm fuzzy when I'm 1000 miles from home, though. The machine work is the big expense here, and putting the engine together would save me little money and eat up precious wrenching time.

In other news, I lost an auction for some Rover shocks on eBay. They were the same ones that British Pacific sells, so I bid like I wanted to win. Somebody wanted them more. $2.50 more. Oh well, I just ordered some ProComp shocks from JC Whitney (took a while to get the parts cross-referenced), which ended up costing less and are probably stronger shocks as well.

The front springs showed up today, so in addition to the engine I have yet another project for this weekend. Once I have the engine apart I can see where I need to go...

[Alaska Mike]

I pulled all of the external parts off, and there epoxied on the side of the block was a label:



ASSEMBLED WITH PRIDE
HI-TECH ENGINES
SERIAL # H 9644
SPOKANE, WASHINGTON

So, it appears this engine has been rebuilt at some point over its life. I can't find any information on the company, so I will probably tear it down and check the machining and components. Hopefully this will save me a lof of machine work and the cylinders will only need to be honed. I'll probably go through the engine and replace the various components for piece of mind, and I'll certainly have it tanked and magnafluxed. We'll see how it goes...

The parts I pulled off seem in good condition, just coated with a thick layer of oil. Looks like this guy didn't know how to seal a valve cover. So, I have a bit of work to do at the parts washer.

[Hltoppr]

You know we do expect pics....:coffeedrink: :box:

-H-

[Alaska Mike]

I'm horrible with the picture-making machine. All thumbs, and they're usually in front of the lens. Once I start making some progress that isn't on individual components, I'll start taking more pictures.

Today I planned on cleaning up a bunch of stuff in the parts washer, but the shop I was planning on using was closed for Columbus Day, which is tomorrow. So I bought a few cans of engine degreaser and some other chemicals and tied up a bay at a spray-it-yourself car wash that didn't have "no engine cleaning" signs posted. A few bucks later and the parts are much nicer, and easier to handle as well. There were obviously engine issues on each of the vehicles that donated the parts, as the protective layers of oil and grease were quite extensive. Too bad the oil couldn't have stayed where it would have done the most good. I'll let them dry for a couple days then start in with the wire wheel before priming and painting them. The engine gets a good look-over tomorrow, and I'll make my plans from there.

[Alaska Mike]

I woke up this morning, flipped on the shower, looked in the mirror and immediately felt wrong. Cold sweats, dizziness, diarrhea, nausea... yep, I was not in good shape. A quick call to work to inform them that I wasn't coming in and then I was back in bed for the next 6 hours. Probably food poisoning.

When I work up, I felt much better, so I stumbled down to the garage to salvage the day. The new springs took a while to get mounted, since I have to move piles of boxes just to tackle a different part of the job. I really envy Mercedesrover for his shop. Once the spring were on, I was tempted to mount the axle housing and start building it up, but there is still a bunch of cleaning and painting to do. Better to do it right the first time. Instead, I spent a couple hours mounting the bulkhead on the frame so I could use the frame as a jig when I weld in the new footwells. It only took a few whacks with a BFH to align everything, and I decided to not push my luck anymore. I got some decent work done in just a few hours and didn't hurt myself or make myself more sick.

Yesterday I dropped the engine off at the machine shop so they could take a look at it. I pulled the head off at home and realized that I am out of my league when it comes to engines and their internal workings. Too many chances of me making an expensive job even worse. The machine shop will give me a call sometime in the next week or so with a verdict and we'll go from there. They agreed that the engine was actually relatively inexpensive to rebuild- it's the cost of machining and labor that have skyrocketed up here. Like I said, we'll see how it goes...

[Alaska Mike]

Today I found out that BF Goodrich was essentially discontinuing the classic Mud Terrain for the new KM2 design, which is a more closed pattern like the Goodyear MTR. All reports so far are that they don't do as well in the mud up here. I'd rather not go with a dedicated mud tire like the Super Swamper TSL I run on my trail rig, and I have yet to find a tire that is a better blend of mud and street performance. I stopped by Costco on the way home from work and picked up 4 of the old 31x10.50R15s, which I wasn't planning on doing for a while. Now I have a set of 5, which better last me for awhile.

A week or so ago I lost an eBay auction on a 15" NAS wheel, and the seller happened to have another that he sold me for a good price. Now I have a spare rim, which I was starting to worry about. 16" rims would have been nice, but I got off a lot cheaper this way. Adding shipping onto a set of NATO steelies would have broken the bank.

I'll get them mounted all up (and get rid of those old, nasty tires in the process) and maybe the sight of those tires on the axle will spur me into further action.

[Alaska Mike]

Well, I tried to clean up the old rims and paint them today, which was quite funny. The wife doesn't like me painting in the garage, since the fumes get sucked in the house, so I let the rims warm up inside and then took them outside to shoot and harden. Didn't work. The one I did looks awful, so I guess I'll be trying something else. Since they aren't in that great of shape paint-wise, I might have them sandblasted and then either powdercoated or just prime and shoot them myself. I certainly can't leave them like they are. I guess I'll wait and see when the spare rim shows up. If I can't find a good place to get them sandblasted, I'll just take them to the shop and clean them up the best I can with a wire wheel and pad, then shoot them with Extend and a good spraypaint. I'm kinda liking the blackwall look, even though they're supposed to be tan. Black doesn't show the brake dust as much.

I also need to paint some of the axle and brake parts before I stick them back on. I'm probably going to have the back end of my car loaded with stuff for the paint booth. I really would rather bolt on clean parts, even though they're going to get dirty eventually.

[Alaska Mike]

I started adding up the remaining costs for rebuilding the axles and brakes, to include all of the consumable parts and brake lines. It came up to almost $900- just to get it back to a stock configuration. I paused a little bit. I've spent quite a bit already.

Now I have been offered the following for about the same price:
- Dana 44 off of a '67 CJ-5, with an offset diff. It has a Detroit, 4.88 gears, a Warn full-floater conversion (30 spline axles), and disc brakes (90% off the shelf, common US parts). There is a provision for an emergency brake.
- Dana 30 out of a '80 CJ-5. It has an Ox locker, 4.88 gears, and a Warn internal hub conversion.

Here's the kicker- they are off a vehicle that burned, so they will have to be completely rebuilt. I really don't want those particular lockers, so they will likely be sold for $300 or so. The gears will be changed to 4.10s, and I'll likely install the axle off of my CJ-5 on the Rover, because it has an ARB and has been relatively recently rebuilt. I could probably get some money for my Rover axles to offset the cost of the gears and install (I don't do axles or engine internals)- eBay Rover owners would love me. I would have to buy new wheels, but they are much cheaper and more readily available than Rover wheels, which I could sell to offset the expense somewhat.

I'm going to look at them this weekend, but I'm thinking if the housings are and the Warn parts are still alive, I can rebuild the axles for less than $1000 and have 4 wheel discs, 4.10 gears, and an ARB (or two if I pull my CJ-5's rear axle). My brake system would be built entirely from domestic parts, making it much cheaper to build and maintain.

Tough call.

[Alaska Mike]

I made the call. After researching what it would take to rebuild the Dana 44 and Dana 30, with the various upgrades to them I would make, the Rover axles won out. I have too much invested already, and would recover too little if I tried to sell them. Warn has stopped making their full-floater kits for the Dana 44, and parts are starting to disappear. I found a supplier of the Model 18 emergency brake, which basically makes disc brakes the only real advantage the Dana 44/30 combo brought to the table. A good advantage, to be sure, but not one that justifies the extra cost to me at this time. If the vehicle was heavier, the engine larger, or the intent more "hardcore", the balance would have been shifted more.

There's something to be said for keeping something Rover under there. While the cost of disc brake conversions for the Rover mean that I will never install disc brakes on those axles, I'm good with that. Life (and by extension this project) is a series of compromises, and sometimes good enough is just that- good enough.

On another note, I picked up a couple bench seats for the back. My eBay feedback is growing by the day...

[Alaska Mike]

Today I spent researching Vehicle Speed Sensors, as I'm completely ignorant of fuel injection systems. It seems they are kinda important to getting decent gas mileage, and finding one that works with my Spicer 18 is going to be interesting. The speedo gear is going to be way off, given that the transfercase was originally on a Scout that had (I believe) 4.27 gears in the axles and 28" tires. Since I'm going to be running 31" tires and 3.54 gears, maybe an electric Speedo that I can calibrate will be the best choice. The guys at Novak said that the ECM doesn't really care as long as the speed sensed by the VSS is somewhere in the ballpark, so hopefully I won't have to change out the speedo gear.

I also have to ship the bellhousing back to Novak because they forgot to machine the CPS hole in there last time I sent it to them. I could cut it myself, but since I have time to spare while the engine is getting torn down and rebuilt, I'd rather have them do it. It's all on their dime anyway...

[ntsqd]

I've not used any of this company's product, but I've read good things. Figured I'd mention them in case your research didn't reveal them.

Dakota Digital Speedo Senders (http://www.dakotadigital.com/index.cfm/page/ptype=product/product_id=109/category_id=311/home_id=59/mode=prod/prd109.htm)

Dakota Digital Universal Speed Signal Interface (http://www.dakotadigital.com/index.cfm/page/ptype=product/product_id=126/category_id=110/home_id=59/mode=prod/prd126.htm)

[Alaska Mike]

I just found that website this afternoon, but I'm not exactly sure which one is right for me (if any of them are). I'll probably call them tomorrow to see what is available. Novak has one for $90 that they say will work, but it doesn't allow you to run mechanical speedometers. I'm torn as to which one I'm interested in, since I've had electrical ones fail completely without warning. Electrical ones are generally more expensive as well, but there are ones that allow to to compensate for tires and gear ratios. The main thing is that the engine runs well. I can use my old GPS72 for a speedo if all else fails.

[Alaska Mike]

It was a frustrating but ultimately rewarding day. I mounted the front axle on the springs and put together the front swivels. I found that the previous owner had somehow swapped swivel housings around, so the drain plugs wouldn't open. He also swapped bolts and studs, and generally did a lot of scary maintenance. The frustrating part was figuring out how things went back together, sometimes by trial and error. I was on the second swivel before I realized he had swapped them around, resulting in a lot of extra work. I hope this guy doesn't work on vehicles anymore...

However, at the end of the day the axle started to come together and I felt like I accomplished something. I had to stop because I don't have a 10 spline 3.54 3rd member to put in there, which meant the axle shafts couldn't go on and the spindles and... It was a good place to stop. My hands are beat up enough.

[Alaska Mike]

I was doing a little looking at my footwell repair panels (British Pacific version) with are different from the existing panels in several ways. I'm considering cutting out the rotted areas of the existing footwells and then grafting in the new ones where required. Basically the bottoms of the footwells are pretty ventilated in the usual spots- especially at the outside corners. I'm going to need to get access to the lower doorposts so I can treat the cancer I see there before it gets any worse. I'm not going to do too much work on the bulkhead until I get the engine and drivetrain mounted so I can see what will need to be trimmed or modified. One step at a time...

[Hltoppr]

Every little bit on this project is a step towards completion!

-H-

[Alaska Mike]

I wasn't feeling like that for most of yesterday, although once I figured out how all the parts were supposed to go instead of following what the previous owner did, it went together really well. I just wish I had figured out earlier that he had hosed it, so I could have moved on to another project, like installing the shocks.

[Alaska Mike]

Now I know why Mercedesrover put in a Defender bulkhead.

Today I spend a gazillion hours drilling out welds on the passenger side floorboard- and I'm still not done. Every time I felt like I had them all, 5 more would show up in the hardest to get to places. I ended up cutting up the foorwell into smaller pieces so I could get a better angle at some of the welds. It's been painful, and my hands are shredded. The parts closest to the tunnel are the worst, since there is three levels of sheetmetal stacked and a ton of seam sealer. There's also no rhyme or reason to where the welds are located- it's just where the guy felt like putting them (sometimes 3 or 4 right next to each other. I can see the light at the end of the tunnel, but it's going to be a while.

In other news, the machining on the engine is done, so I'll be picking it up tomorrow. Who knows when I'll get a chance to work on it. I'm winding down the project for the year, since skiing is right around the corner and I won't have any time for serious wrenching.

[Mercedesrover]

Wish I'd known you were at this stage....I could have sent you some really nice spot weld drills.

[Alaska Mike]

"This stage" is a very loose term. More like I bounce from one task to another as my fancy, finances, and parts permit. I had to stop on the front axle for awhile, I didn't have the engine to work on, once I get the engine back the bellhousing is at Novak getting machined... This just happened to be where I could make a dent. It's likely that I'll get the passenger side done and it will be a long time before I get to the driver side.

I'll probably bolt together the block, shrinkwrap it on the engine stand, and push it off into a safe corner of the garage. As I mentioned, my time this year is almost up.

[Hltoppr]

Yeah...If the rest of us try to compare our build times with Mercedesrover's, we're all going to be pretty shamed....that was the fastest progress I've ever seen for someone doing it themselves, rather than a shop working on a client's rig!

I'm in the same boat here...getting colder, so I've got to have the rig driveable, in case I can't take the moto....

-H-

[Alaska Mike]

I think this is sexy:
http://img125.imageshack.us/img125/2519/enginetransmissionah7.jpg
I brought the engine home today and started getting it ready for what is likely going to be a long nap. I just had to compare it to the transmission, and somehow I don't think the SM465 will have any problems handling all that the 2.5L can dish out.

The short block was toast, thanks to the incompetent guys who rebuilt it last. I think I could have done more precise machine work with a hacksaw and an angle grinder. It would have had to be bored .060 over just to clean up the cylinders, and some of the "repairs" they did in the main bearing area were a thrown rod (or worse) waiting to happen. We found a really nice short block for next to nothing and it was bored a more reasonable .020 over.

The head was in much better shape, and came out really nice. The whole thing went together really cleanly, and I'm pretty stoked about another big chunk of the project being sorted out.

This is yet another reason I'm jealous of Mercedesrover:
http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/3153/roverpilexe7.jpg
To get any work accomplished, I had to uncover the portion being worked on, usually stacking the boxes in the narrow aisle. What I wouldn't give for better lighting and access to all parts of the project...

This is actually extremely neat, as the wife started using strong language to describe the garage. I took the hint.

[Alaska Mike]

This morning before work I snuck in a couple hours bolting parts on the block. I took pictures of it before I removed the pieces, then printed out large photos so I had a point of reference. Hard-earned knowledge taught me that the Chilton's doesn't show everything. Where does the stud go? Or is that a bolt? How it this sensor situated? Little stuff like that.

I'll probably spend tomorrow morning at a car wash with a few cans of engine cleaner and the rest of the exterior engine parts. Manifolds, water pump, power steering pump... they're all a little grungy- much too grungy to go on that nice clean block. I may end up just replacing some of the parts as they aren't that expensive.

I took apart the distributer today and generally cleaned it up... and there is was. Under the oil and dirt was a sticker and the mark of the Prince of Darkness. Here is proof that no matter what you replace, evil is just a part of the Series Land Rover experience.

Electrical Theory by Joseph Lucas

Positive ground depends upon proper circuit functioning, the transmission of negative ions by retention of the visible spectral manifestation known as "smoke". Smoke is the thing that makes electrical circuits work; we know this to be true because every time one lets the smoke out of the electrical system, it stops working. This can be verified repeatedly through empirical testing. When, for example, the smoke escapes from an electrical component (i.e., say, a Lucas voltage regulator), it will be observed that the component stops working. The function of the wire harness is to carry the smoke from one device to another; when the wire harness "springs a leak", and lets all the smoke out of the system, nothing works afterwards. Starter motors were frowned upon in British Automobiles for some time, largely because they consume large quantities of smoke, requiring very large wires.

It has been noted that Lucas components are possibly more prone to electrical leakage than Bosch or generic Japanese electrics. Experts point out that this is because Lucas is British and all things British leak. British engines leak oil, shock absorbers, hydraulic forks and disk brakes leak fluid, British tyres leak air and the British defense establishment leaks secrets...so, naturally, British electrics leak smoke.

[James86004]

I must be the only person who has had very little trouble with my Lucas electrics. Certainly no more than the electrics on my other cars.

[njtaco]

Electrical Theory by Joseph Lucas



Thanks for the laugh...who do I give credit to when I forward this to our electicians? Lucas?

BTW, I've been enjoying this thread a lot, and learning so much about this vintage Rover. Keep up the good work!

[revor]

Electrical Theory by Joseph Lucas

Positive ground depends upon proper circuit functioning, the transmission of negative ions by retention of the visible spectral manifestation known as "smoke". Smoke is the thing that makes electrical circuits work; we know this to be true because every time one lets the smoke out of the electrical system, it stops working. This can be verified repeatedly through empirical testing. When, for example, the smoke escapes from an electrical component (i.e., say, a Lucas voltage regulator), it will be observed that the component stops working. The function of the wire harness is to carry the smoke from one device to another; when the wire harness "springs a leak", and lets all the smoke out of the system, nothing works afterwards. Starter motors were frowned upon in British Automobiles for some time, largely because they consume large quantities of smoke, requiring very large wires.

It has been noted that Lucas components are possibly more prone to electrical leakage than Bosch or generic Japanese electrics. Experts point out that this is because Lucas is British and all things British leak. British engines leak oil, shock absorbers, hydraulic forks and disk brakes leak fluid, British tyres leak air and the British defense establishment leaks secrets...so, naturally, British electrics leak smoke.


:xxrotflma

Oh... It hurts.....

[Jeep]

THAT was absolutely hilarious!

Why do Brits like warm beer? 'Cause Lucas makes refrigerators too.

[ntsqd]

When I worked in Vintage Racing Car prep & fabrication my employer & friend Tony explained to me why Lucas gets such a bad rep.

They will build equipment to your price-point.

If you, as an OEM, want a $5 generator regulator that's what they'll sell you. If you want it to work and live longer then you buy the $15 regulator or if you're Rolls-Royce you buy the $35 regulator. All three units have the Lucas name on them, but the internal parts are not the same.

Illustrating the point, note how much of the airborne electronics on aircraft from Europe is Lucas. And note that they have been a major player in F1 electronics. Perhaps not the dominant supplier, but they have been there. Granted, there still may have issues, but we're back to that buying at a certain price-point thing again.

Now, if you want a challenge, figure out how to make work an 1965 Abarth-Simca Corsa 2000 GT's negative Earth charging system. Lucas generator with a Magnetti-Marelli regulator on a car based on a French set of mechanicals, hot rodded in Italy by an Austrian.........
http://www.fazaabarth.info/images/index.340.gif

[Alaska Mike]

Thanks for the laugh...who do I give credit to when I forward this to our electicians? Lucas?
I've seen this attributed or supplied by several people when I ran across it on the net, so the original author may be unknown.

Here's a little more:
http://www.mez.co.uk/lucas.html
There is a lot more out there- believe me. Google "Lucas, Prince of Darkness".

[Alaska Mike]

...and there it sat for the last year.

A re-examination of priorities put the project on the back burner, as family, health, and finances/career took the top spots. Now that things have calmed down a bit and I have a schedule that allows a bit more free time, I'm ready to dip my toes back in the cesspool.

With that in mind, I've started searching for the parts that slowed my project in the first place. In particular, the front differential was keeping me from finishing. The local source flaked out on me, and suddenly they became a valuable commodity up here. eBay is where I got the rear, but the shipping was more than the diff itself. Fast-forward to today, and it looks like I've located one for a decent price and somewhat reasonable shipping. That will allow me to finally finish the front axle and get a rolling chassis. Every part I bolt on is a part that isn't sitting in a box cluttering up the place.

I still have to get the floorboards done before I start looking at mounting the engine. I need to have the bulkhead in place so I know what clearances I'm working with when I mount the engine and tranny/transfercase. I'm likely going to use the stock motor mounting points and build from there. The engine is more powerful than the original, but it's also lighter. I think I'll be OK here.

Like I said, I'm going to only be dipping my toes in here. Hopefully gas will still be available when it's done.

[Alaska Mike]

So, today there was a nice box of front diff sitting on the front porch. Now I have less of an excuse for not finishing the front axle.

So, the muttification continues:
Body panels/top: Original '73 Series III 88
Frame: Galvanized replacement
Bulkhead: '73 Series III 88 (a different one)
Engine: Rebuilt '92 Jeep Wrangler 2.5L MPFI I-4
Transmission: Rebuilt SM465 (fullsize GM truck)
Transfercase: Rebuilt Spicer 18 ('62 International Scout 80)
Rear axle: Rover housing, Disco 3.54 diff, Seriestrek axle shafts, new bearings/seals
Front axle: Rover housing, stock shafts, RRC 3.54 diff, new swivel balls, new bearings/u-joints/seals
Steering: International Scout II Saginaw power steering box
Tires: 31x10.50 R15 BFG Mud Terrains
...and so on and so forth...

I'm not sure what it will be when I'm done.

While the official name of the Rover is the Gubblemobile, I'm probably going to make up some kind of logo for "The Platypus Expedition", alluding to the thrown-together nature of the vehicle and as a nod to the Turtle Expedition, which was a big inspiration to Scott Brady and me years ago.

Just some thoughts as I stare dreamily at my Rover pile.

[evilfij]

Consider running a taller and narrower tire. 31 x 10.50 x 15 do not fit under the fenders well. If you have the SIII stock 15x6in wheels, run a 32x9.50 or 33x9.50 tire or buy some 16in wheels and run 235 85 r17 or 7.50x16.

Ron

[Alaska Mike]

I certainly considered narrower and taller tires. A couple considereations led me to the 31x10.50 R15s:

Wheels: My Rover originally came with 15" wheels. I looked into 16" steel wheels from various sources, but the price after shipping was obscene. Local outlets weren't much better, and the wheel quality was marginal at best. 15" wheels were going to have to be it.
Tread: Finding a decent mud tire in a somewhat tall but narrow size for a 15" rim is next to impossible these days. BFG used to make a 33x9.50 MT, but that was discontinued years ago. I really need a mud tire up here, as that's pretty much the terrain. Even the ones I found that were somewhat along the lines of what I was looking for were a special order item- not a great characteristic if you're going to be driving anywhere that might destroy a tire or two. 31x10.50s are pretty common everywhere.
Ratios: The Disco/RRC differentials I installed have a stock 3.54 gearing. I was concerned about killing the XJ 2.5L running a taller tire without a gear swap. I'm not so concerned about low range, as the SM465 will take care of that. The 3.54/31" combo isn't a perfect match, but the gearing is somewhat close to an XJ's would be. Without an overdrive, I have to consider highway gearing as well. The 30x9.50 option was briefly considered, but it lost 300lbs of tire load capacity and would have increased my 65MPH RPMs.
Springs: I'm not completely sure how arched and "springy" my rear springs are after the rebuild. I'm also not sure how much the new replacement fronts will settle. I went a little conservative here.

None of this is really my long-term plan. I really need to get it together and do some evaluation on the road before I consider the gearing and tire size again. The extra 1" of width is going to have to be dealt with in the short run.

[Alaska Mike]

Well, today I finally got the time to install the front diff and start putting together the passenger side from the stub axle out. Should have been easy, but I took my time getting everything sealed up nicely. The last step was to fill the swivel ball housings with Lucas Hub Oil. The stuff was so thick, I thought there was no way it was ever going to leak out.

Wrong.

After a few minutes it started coming out of the swivel ball seal, right at the bottom. Not weeping out either, but dripping.

These were new parts, and I was sure that they were seated properly. No dirt or other stuff around the seal. I worked the swivel ball back and forth a few times, and it seemed to seal off. I'm going to let it sit tonight and check it in the morning. Hopefully it stops.

[Wander]

I hope you get it sorted Mike. My only guess would be that something didn't seat completely,but I've never done that job before.

[Alaska Mike]

I'm thinking (hoping) that one of the lips on the seal might have rolled under on the dry swivel ball, creating a gap. Moving it back and forth may have re-seated it. I'm going to wipe it down, fill it up, let it sit a while longer, and go from there. Frustrating, but not the end of the world.

I'm going skiing.

[stevenmd]

I certainly considered narrower and taller tires. A couple considereations led me to the 31x10.50 R15s:

Wheels: My Rover originally came with 15" wheels. I looked into 16" steel wheels from various sources, but the price after shipping was obscene. Local outlets weren't much better, and the wheel quality was marginal at best. 15" wheels were going to have to be it.
Tread: Finding a decent mud tire in a somewhat tall but narrow size for a 15" rim is next to impossible these days. BFG used to make a 33x9.50 MT, but that was discontinued years ago. I really need a mud tire up here, as that's pretty much the terrain. Even the ones I found that were somewhat along the lines of what I was looking for were a special order item- not a great characteristic if you're going to be driving anywhere that might destroy a tire or two. 31x10.50s are pretty common everywhere.
Ratios: The Disco/RRC differentials I installed have a stock 3.54 gearing. I was concerned about killing the XJ 2.5L running a taller tire without a gear swap. I'm not so concerned about low range, as the SM465 will take care of that. The 3.54/31" combo isn't a perfect match, but the gearing is somewhat close to an XJ's would be. Without an overdrive, I have to consider highway gearing as well. The 30x9.50 option was briefly considered, but it lost 300lbs of tire load capacity and would have increased my 65MPH RPMs.
Springs: I'm not completely sure how arched and "springy" my rear springs are after the rebuild. I'm also not sure how much the new replacement fronts will settle. I went a little conservative here.

None of this is really my long-term plan. I really need to get it together and do some evaluation on the road before I consider the gearing and tire size again. The extra 1" of width is going to have to be dealt with in the short run.



Is it the shipping to AK that kills it? You can get a set of 5 DI spare steelies that fit the series for about $125. I have 2 sets of 16" wheels for my 109 and a set of steelies. (Not selling though, sorry.) Keep looking out for deals, they are out there if you are patient.

[stevenmd]

I must be the only person who has had very little trouble with my Lucas electrics. Certainly no more than the electrics on my other cars.

Same here sans the one time the window regulator on my old DI needed to be fixed.

[Sean VHA #60013]

Keep up the good work! I am reall looking forward to seeing it all come togather :ylsmoke:

[lstrvr]

I always get a bit of a kick out of the Lucas is evil debate as well. I work on Boeing 757's with the Rolls Royce RB211 powerplants, and everything electrical on them is Lucas! They also have a great reputation for reliability and are preferred over the Pratt & Whitney option. That being said, there is nothing Lucas left on my '61 SII!

[SeaRubi]

I'm thinking (hoping) that one of the lips on the seal might have rolled under on the dry swivel ball, creating a gap. Moving it back and forth may have re-seated it. I'm going to wipe it down, fill it up, let it sit a while longer, and go from there. Frustrating, but not the end of the world.

I'm going skiing.

that's highly plausible Mike about rolling the lip. on my coiler I wiped the swivel ball down with a little 90wt before before buttoning everything up. they are all notoriously finicky. some guys never seem to have a problem, and then others are always leaking regardless of what they try. If it's bad you can investigate using the "oneshot" grease that's used in the newer trucks, also sometimes referred to as "corn grease". there were some epic threads on this on the LRO list waaaay back.

there did seem to be a consensus as I recall that the grease isn't as desirable for a truck that sees a lot of water and mud. the thought being, if oil isn't getting out, water isn't getting in. lots of people would just say to hell with the seals and put the grease in, only to find destroyed U-joints or CV's from water and rust a few years later.

some googlin' on the topic will make for an evening of entertainment :coffeedrink:

cheers

[Alaska Mike]

Is it the shipping to AK that kills it? You can get a set of 5 DI spare steelies that fit the series for about $125. I have 2 sets of 16" wheels for my 109 and a set of steelies. (Not selling though, sorry.) Keep looking out for deals, they are out there if you are patient.

The shipping kills me every time. In most cases with wheels, the shipping from most vendors is more than the price of the wheels themselves.

I figure I'll run the 31x10.50s for a while, then maybe pick up a set of 16" wheels on a trip down south one year. We'll see how they look and stuff into the wheelwells.

[Alaska Mike]

that's highly plausible Mike about rolling the lip. on my coiler I wiped the swivel ball down with a little 90wt before before buttoning everything up. they are all notoriously finicky. some guys never seem to have a problem, and then others are always leaking regardless of what they try. If it's bad you can investigate using the "oneshot" grease that's used in the newer trucks, also sometimes referred to as "corn grease". there were some epic threads on this on the LRO list waaaay back.

there did seem to be a consensus as I recall that the grease isn't as desirable for a truck that sees a lot of water and mud. the thought being, if oil isn't getting out, water isn't getting in. lots of people would just say to hell with the seals and put the grease in, only to find destroyed U-joints or CV's from water and rust a few years later.

some googlin' on the topic will make for an evening of entertainment :coffeedrink:

cheers

The Lucas hub oil is some pretty thick stuff. Since I will likely be running some mud and water here and there, I'm hoping I can get this to work. I need something I can drain if required without disassembling the swivel ball housing to do it.

The previous owner (may he rot in the hot place) seemed to have solved the debate by letting whatever was in the swivel ball housing run dry.

[stevenmd]

The shipping kills me every time. In most cases with wheels, the shipping from most vendors is more than the price of the wheels themselves.

I figure I'll run the 31x10.50s for a while, then maybe pick up a set of 16" wheels on a trip down south one year. We'll see how they look and stuff into the wheelwells.

Well you are more than welcome to store them in my garage until you make a trip down here. I live in Northern California.

[Alaska Mike]

Here I am at a crossroads again, halfway through an axle and wondering if I'm going in the right direction. I blame it on the swivel ball.

My trail Jeep has seen very little use over the last couple years because it can't fit the family. So there it sits, unused. I can't sell it for anywhere near what it's worth (I've tried and the market just isn't there anymore). Underneath the Jeep is an open knuckle Dana 30 with an ARB, 4.10 gears, disc brakes, and a Warn internal hub conversion. The rear axle is a Dana 44 with an ARB, 4.10 gears, 11"x2" drums and a Warn full-floating axle conversion.

The reason I bring this up is that brakes are one of my concerns with the Rover, especially in the mud and water. I can foresee a disc brake conversion in my future, which after shipping will run $2K+. The turning radius for the closed knuckle Rover axle is nothing to write home about, especially on tight trails and considering the pitman arm on the power steering box I'm using. The 3.54 gear ratio I settled on was more of a short term, see if it works kind of thing, and less than optimal.

I am a whole lot of money into the Rover axles though. Seriestrek shafts, bearings, seals, differentials, brake parts (to include all new brake lines), swivel balls... it certainly added up. I like the full-floating, 3rd member design, and the bolt-in simplicity of it, but I'm starting to have second (or tenth) thoughts.

If the Jeep axles will stuff (with some perch welding), here's what I expect:

I'll need to replace the Dana 44 housing with an offset housing. I've located a complete (drum to drum), 10 spline early CJ housing for $50.
I'll need to convert the 10 spline axles to 30 spline to match the ARB, and since Warn doesn't make the axle shafts for the full-floating conversion anymore, that means finding another vendor or custom shafts. Could be expensive, but still less than $800.
I'll need to replace the brake hydraulic system with a CJ system, from the master cylinder down. That shouldn't be too bad, since I can source the brake line locally and all of the parts are available at the nearest NAPA. I figure it will be less than $300 for that.
I might have to modify the brake pedal linkage a bit, but not excessively.
I'll likely have to modify the spring plates for the different diameter axle tubes.
I think that's about it. I figure I can sell quite a bit of the Rover stuff locally to cover most of the conversion costs (but not my initial investment). Did I forget anything?

What is very appealing is the thought that I'll be able to keep my Jeep with me in some form. It's been with me for a lot of years, but I can't really ever see myself using it again like I used to. It's just not practical anymore, and once I pull the 8274 for the Rover, it will be less trail capable. But I don't have to explain sentimental attachments to Rover owners, do I?

So, what do you think of the concept?

[revor]

I'd be careful putting something so modern and efficient on a Series Rover. Things like upgraded brakes and such are often rejected by the vehicle for years after the conversion! You must spend time to convince the Rover that the modification is for the good of everyone!

As far as the morality of the conversion that's on your conscience. I can say that I hate the thought of scrapping any nice vehicle that runs for the sake of another. On the other hand you'd hate to see it sit and rust away.

Lemme know If I can help with axles. Those 30 double spliners are usually about $400

[Wander]

Don't you Blastpheme in here!:Wow1: (just kidding)

MercedesRover used Toyota axels (I think, I'll have to re-reade his build thread) on both his builds for a very similar of not the same issue and had good luck with it.

[Scott Brady]

Glad to see you continuing with the project!

[SeaRubi]

I would say ... whatever gets it on the road in the shortest amount of time is the best idea. It seems like operating vehicles have a way of sorting out what needs to be done next much better than ones on jackstands, speaking from experience ... :ylsmoke:

I don't think a Dana 30 has much to brag about over a Series axle in a Series rig on < 32" tires. These trucks conquered a lot of jungle all over the world with 10 spline axles, open differentials and drum brakes. It can work for you, too - with that ginormous 8274 winch you got :elkgrin:

[Alaska Mike]

I'd be careful putting something so modern and efficient on a Series Rover. Things like upgraded brakes and such are often rejected by the vehicle for years after the conversion! You must spend time to convince the Rover that the modification is for the good of everyone!

As far as the morality of the conversion that's on your conscience. I can say that I hate the thought of scrapping any nice vehicle that runs for the sake of another. On the other hand you'd hate to see it sit and rust away.

Lemme know If I can help with axles. Those 30 double spliners are usually about $400

I'm way past morality here. More like heresy.

I may hit you up on the axles. It's been a while since I priced them, and that was for flanged axles.

The CJ-5 will likely get another set of stock axles (Dana 30, AMC 20), so it won't just get parted out. I have more than the axles invested, and it's still a solid vehicle. I'll either sell it or keep it for an extra trail rig. It just won't be what it was.

[Bugspray]

I'm going skiing.[/QUOTE]

it solves all of lifes little problems.....or at least puts'em off for another day!