Expedition Security: Firearm Recommendations and Suggestions

[+ d]

I have been shopping for a hand gun on and off over the last couple of years. After reading some of the posts in the "tightest situations (http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=934)" thread I have been reassessing my own security measures... I keep a mossberg 590 around the house but its a little unwieldy to take out, i'd like something smaller.

It seems like a 9mm Glock is kind of the default...cost is an issue for me so I am never sure what to believe when the gun dealers tell me what a bargain brand X is, obviously reliability is tantamount.

Clearly a firearm is a highly personal thing but I am interested in what you guys had to share as far as choosing/using/transporting a hand gun.

[LostSol]

Ive owned alot of firearms, and it is very personal, so all i can really suggest to you is to go and shoot a few different guns. Glocks are great but i personally dont like shooting them, feels like your holding a 2x4 IMHO. I have a sig245, and a couple of 1911's, you really have to figure out if the pistol will be carried on your person, and where, and also how much do you want to spend?

I could go on and on about guns if you have any specific questions feel free to PM me
Shawn

[goodtimes]

First I gotta say...check local laws regarding carrying/transporting weapons. You will find CA isn't very friendly on the matter.

But that aside, I continue to fail to see the appeal of a 9mm. The only advantage it has is the capacity (number of bullets) in a standard size frame. The problem is that the projectile travels too fast. There is a reason law enforcement agencies and the military are going BACK to the .45 acp after falling into the "more bullets is better" trap back in the 90's. It has to do with the amount of energy that the projectile will transfer into the target. A small diameter, fast moving, light weight projectile simply will not transfer as much energy as a larger diameter, slower moving, heavier projectile will. Why? Because the 9mm has a tendancy to over penetrate (read: come out the back side) of the target. The .45 isn't as likely to do this. (can you tell I'm a fan of the .45 acp?)

There are several rounds inbetween the 9 and the .45 that have proven a good compromise. Look into the .40 s&w, and the .357 sig. The thing I don't like about the .40, is that with it's really high chamber pressure, it developes one hell of a recoil considering it's size. This makes it harder to control for people who don't go out shooting very often (myself included). I don't recall if I have ever shot a .357 sig or not.....of course, I haven't really followed the firearms industry in....heck.....8 or 9 years...there may be more options out there that are suitable.....

But all things ballistically aside...you should be able to control the weapon of your choice. It doesnt' matter how many bullets it holds, or how much energy each of those bullets can transfer to it's target if you can't hit the target. I strongly suggest you find a local firing range that rents guns (many do...er...at least they used to), so you can "test drive" them. Find a model and calibre that you can control, and offers the ballistics you like, and go for it. Don't get caught up in the WWW trap of "I have such and such of a gun and it's the best there ever was and anyone who thinks differently is an idiot". Much like a car/truck/SUV, or a new mattress, or a new dog....what is right for one person may or may not be right for you.

[flyingwil]

I just recently got a Hi-Point 9mm for $100. They are a fairly cheap entry level firearm. So far I have put about 200 rounds with out an issue. I bought it used from a good friend. The main thing I was looking for was something that makes a bang, and caliber did not matter to me. My main concern is animals such as bears, when out with my wife and dogs.

I think your best bet is to go out and see what you like and see if you can afford it. Determine if you plan on carrying it in a holster, keeping it in your rig, ect... Then pick what works for you. It is all a matter of personal preference.

Wil

[Jonathan Hanson]

Brian, I'm going to disagree with your first paragraph and agree with the second two. Overpenetration is more a factor of bullet design than velocity; in fact higher velocity usually reduces overpenetration since it promotes bullet deformation or fragmentation. All hardball pistol rounds in common defense calibers overpenetrate. I agree that with hardball ammunition the 9mm is a poor performer, and that's why the military is considering switching back to .45. Fortunately as civilians we have our choice of much more effective ammunition.

David, Brian is right on in that you should buy the most powerful caliber you can control. With modern hollowpoints, such as those from Corbon, a 9mm makes a fine defensive round, and if you can place its bullets accurately it will far outperform a poorly shot .44 Magnum. Another factor is ammunition cost. Practicing is the only way to ensure you can competently defend yourself if need be, and you won't practice if you can't afford lots of ammunition. The .45, 9mm, and .40 all can be bought cheaply in bulk; I like the Winchester white box hardball.

If you plan to shoot regularly you have a choice of many fine and reliable brands: Glock, Sig, and HK top my list. If you want a pistol you can leave in a toolbox for two years, then pull it out and expect it to perform flawlessly, a Glock is hard to beat. The Glock is also simple to field strip, and absolutely safe as long as you remember Rule Three: Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target.

I think you'd do well with a Glock 17 (full size) or 19 (compact). Or try an HK USP Compact, which is probably as reliable as the Glock and more comfortable, if much more complex internally. I carry a Glock 32 in .357 Sig, which is a powerful defensive round but easy to control in the Glock. I've carried about everything you can name, including a beautiful Novak-customized Colt Commander in .45, but I keep coming back to Glocks for one reason: They work all the time.

Don't forget the factor most people overlook: In 99 percent of situations requiring a gun the mere display of the weapon is enough to defuse the situation. But if you draw a weapon you have to be prepared to use it.

Caveat here: I am neither a law enforcement officer nor a member of the military. I have trained for several years with the former instructor for the Pima County Sheriff's Department, and gained a huge benefit from his experience. But still just a civvie.

Hope this helps! Good luck and let us know what you decide.

[DaktariEd]

I think the most critical point here is what has been said a couple of times: you have to be able to control the weapon. A handgun will do no good and may do great harm if not under your full control.

I like the statement Jonathan made about cost of practice rounds. The cost factor is important. If ammo is too costly, you may not practice as much; you won't be as skilled, as comfortable, etc.

As far as weapon brand, I have both a Ruger .357 mag revolver and a Colt .45 cal 1911. Both are excellent, but both have a nice recoil (read, significant).

The Glocks are wonderful...most of my police/sheriff friends carry those. I have used a .40 cal at the range and the recoil is very minimal. Even my 22 year old daughter (who had never fired a handgun before) found the Glock easy to control.

So...do the test drives...see what works for you.
Take a class if needed...get comfortable with the handgun well before you actually may need it.

My 2 cents...
Ed :wavey:

[60seriesguy]

On expeditions in Venezuela I usually carried a .357 S&W revolver, SS with a 4" barrel. Thankfully I never had to shoot anybody, but did use it on plenty of snakes and used it once to scare a big jaguar that had been trailing us. Great gun, very stable, comfortable grip, and I dropped in rivers a couple of times with no ill effect after cleanup.

[Nullifier]

You know the (mm round was developed by the Germans not to kill but to wound. If I remember in the article I read on it the basic theory was that the small fast bullet point roughly pencil sized holes in an opponent. This would usually wound not kill or atleast not right away. It takes no one to secure a dead man but 4 soldiers to take care of 1 wounded. so if ya had 100 wounded soldiers 400 more wound be taken out of the fight. Now we know that the ratio is not really that great but still that was the point.

I carry Glock. Always have and will. The basic reason is that it will not fail or jam. Now there are alot of great guns on the market. I have sewveral others but my carries are glocks. I have been using a glock 9 for over 10 years. I also have a compact .40 that I like since it has alittle more hitting power but not as much kick as a .45 when shooting the compact gun.

I guess in the end however it doen't really matter though on caliber since most shoot outs happen with in 5'. My good friend carries a little .22 mag berrata. Be ex special forces as he says 2-3 shots just below an opponents belt will take them out the threat category real quick.

My suggestion is to go to a range that rents guns and shoot several models. Try to get one that feels good in your hand that will go along way toward control. Auto's are more slim and easier to conceal however a .357 revolver has great stopping power and you can shoot .38 ammo which is cheaper and less kick for training.

Good luck

[pskhaat]

My defense/riding/expedition gun of choice is the lever-action 3030. It is smaller, light, easy to control, can be quickly brought into action, and is weighted for carrying unlike many rifles. It is also very easy to fit inbetween the front seats, or pack on a horse, etc, etc.

http://www.alpharubicon.com/leo/leverguns.htm

As a handgun, I think I'd be able to do as much with a .22 as a larger caliber in terms of deterence. I personally like my 380 auto as it is IMO a very good cross between larger caliber and smaller carry weapon.

[goodtimes]

I carry Glock. Always have and will. The basic reason is that it will not fail or jam.

Not to be arguementative, but yes, glocks can and do jam. It is a mechanical device, there is ALWAYS the potential for failure. No device is exempt from this, I don't care who made it or how robust the design is. My 14 year old Ruger kp90 (.45acp) has never jammed...but that doesn't mean it can't or won't. (btw, I'm not a huge fan of this weapon....unless of course SRC has made some improvements in the past 15 years...assuming of course that this model is even being produced at this point).

For those who are concerned (and rightfully so) about the cost of ammunition for practice...consider hand loading. Years ago, I could load a .45 acp for 10 cents (not including my time). It would cost me 25 cents for each round of commercial ammunition. I was literally saving 15 cents every time I pulled the trigger. With a initial investment of less than $150, pulling the trigger ~ 250 times per month, it took me about 4 months to recoup my investment. From there on out, it was all money left in my bank account instead of someone elses. You also get the benefit of loading some rounds that work well for your chosen weapon and your own abilities. For example, I keep my .45 loaded with some 185 grain speer gold dots backed up with about 5 grains of ....uh...I believe red dot....(it has been probably 10 years since I loaded them....). Through experimentation, I found this combination was very accurate (compared to other loads I tried), and the recoil was lighter than the 230 grain hardballs, making it more controllable and predictable *for me and my weapon*. Shooting commercial ammunition I probably never would have found this combination.....

[goodtimes]

I personally like my 380 auto as it is IMO a very good cross between larger caliber and smaller carry weapon.

I'm actually considering a 380...I have a hard time concealing a large frame pistol...the whole shorts and a t-shirt thing don't contribute to hiding a full sized pistol very well.....

[IggyB]

Those of us in Canada have very few options.

This is one of them. Winchester defender, pistol grip.

http://www.pistolmikes.com/shotguns/13d8pistwin.jpg

[calamaridog]

David,

In CA, you can have a loaded firearm in your camp. Obviously, you should not brandish the gun and scare all the kiddies. Transporting the firearm to the camp must be done in accordance with State Law, i.e. unloaded and locked up and the ammunition stored separately.

I would be happy to arrange for you to shoot a variety of pistols at a local range (or Jacumba:D). I have a friend who can bring "one of everything" and he is a firearms instructor for a Federal Law Enforcement agency. I'm no novice myself;)

Personally, I would never trust my life to anything smaller than 9mm and would seriously consider .40.

As previously stated, GLOCK, SIG Sauer, and HK all make fine firearms. GLOCK makes a very rugged, reliable, and functional firearm.

[calamaridog]

Ruger makes a fine revolver but their auto pistols leave much to be desired.

[Ursidae69]

I carry a Ruger P89 9mm. Have had it since I was 20. I may not be a very good shot (ask Goodtimes :p ) but with 15 rounds per clip, I'll eventually hit the target.

The carry laws are complicated, when I got outside of AZ or NM, I often don't take it. I've been pulled over in both NM and AZ with the gun holstered in the glovebox. Both times I told the officer first thing and they were cool. In AZ they just had me stand next to them at their car and in NM they didn't care, just said stay out of the glove box. If I do that in California, I go to jail as a criminal, that is whacked. :rolleyes:

Might be off topic, but I think Calimaridog is a law officer right? What is your take on carry laws as an officer? Should they be consistent between states?

[mountainpete]

Not the exact same model, but this is what I carry in the truck:

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/content/Pod/02/10/04/p021004sq01.jpg

Great for those annoying squirrels that like dropping pine cones on my tent early in the morning
:gunt:

[IggyB]

Very nice Iggy...........

I've admired those for years! I want one!

I used to consider.....what if you loaded every other round with a SLUG!

Have you ever shot a 12 gauge slug at an old water heater at a dump?! It makes a hole the size of a cannon ball!

In upstate New York.....you can't hunt deer with a rifle. It's either shotgun's with slugs or handguns. I used to go out with my ex father in law.....some great times there.

When going camping I load it with buckshot - OO and slugs. The remington 870 with the full stock and 18 3/4" barrel gets the same treatment.

The pistol gripped Defender will hurt your wrist something fierce if you fire off 7 slugs and buckshot. But it's compact and has that wonderful sound that the slide makes when you chamber a round. In gunspeak it says "No, fawk YOU":archaeolo

In most states and Canada you should be OK with a shotgun almost anywhere you go exploring. Handgun can be dicey in some states.

[calamaridog]

Might be off topic, but I think Calimaridog is a law officer right? What is your take on carry laws as an officer? Should they be consistent between states?

This is a "States Rights" issue and I believe the majority of the citizens in a state should decide if their state will be a "right to carry" state.

I'm not fond of overly strict laws in CA but it seems to be what the majority of the people here want. You have to apply to the local Sheriff for a CCW and almost none of them will issue a permit:rolleyes:

Personally, I believe that a law abiding citizen should have the "right to carry".

I CA you can carry at home (campsite is a temporary home) or in your business, just not out in public, your car, etc.

[datrupr]

I carry a Ruger P89D 9mm with 3 15 round mags. I havve had this gun for over 10 years now, have fired it a lot, and have had no troubles with it, I think it malfunctioned on me once at the range, and that was my fault, due to not having cleaned it, and the mag I had in it was also dirty, causing a malfunction. Generally, I clean my guns after firing, there was just one time when I did not, and that was the result. My fault, not the gun.

[asteffes]

Look at www.packing.org for information on conceiled carry laws in each state. It's a complex issue, but one that is made a bit more convenient by states that reciprocate carry rights with other states. Sadly, California is involved in no such reciprocity, but many others are.

Regarding which firearm you should purchase, no one can really answer that for you. You should go to a range and try a variety of weapons and calibers. *Everyone* has an opinion on what "the best" firearm is, but it's rediculous how many of those opinions are founded on fluff or speculation. Caliber doesn't matter if you are not comfortable with the weapon, or if you do not have any form of self defense training. There's more to it than the weapon, caliber, ammunition, etc. that you choose. If you aren't trained to use them properly, and if you don't equip yourself with the right skills and mindset to defend yourself, it doesn't matter what you chose - it won't do the job.

The caliber wars will never, ever end. That is why there are so many to choose from. 9mm, .40 and .45 will all do the job with proper shot placement. This whole argument has been re-hashed countless times on countless forums, mailing lists and locker rooms. Really, it doesn't matter. Learn to shoot the one you feel the most comfortable with and forget about all the ballistics debate. They will all work, but only if the round finds the target.

That said, any weapon from a well-known, quality manufacturer and ammunition from a quality source are going to be perfectly fine choices. But you must find what works *for you* and not base your choice on what anyone on the Internet suggests you buy.

[Scott Brady]

I do carry, but only when Stephanie and I travel alone. Just me, or with a group, the gun stays at home.

I do not think it appropriate to make a safety decision for an entire group of people.

The most effective self defence weapon is a 12 gauge shotgun. This has been proved beyond debate. 5 rounds of OO buck in a tactical shotgun will give you the best chance of not only surviving a gun fight, but it never starting in the first place. A pump shotgun chambering a round speaks beyond language barriers.

For a handgun, I prefer and use the .45 ACP HK USP. Weapon of choice for the special forces and extremely accurate. I have big hands, so the large frame fits me well. It is a tactical weapon and designed as such. The downside is the cost, and will not fit people with small hands.

Make sure you are very accurate and comfortable with the gun you choose. Handling and shooting should be second nature, or you are better off leaving it at home...

[Mike S]

Interesting and popular topic.

I am a dedicated bird hunter. Have been shooting and qualifying with various firearms since childhood. I often carry guns (typically shotguns) in my truck when traveling throughout the Western US.

Seems to me that you need to be very clear on a couple of things when considering a firearm for personal defense...

1. If you are threatened - seriously - how would you respond? It is always better to run from conflict rather than confront it. Can (would) you pull the trigger on someone who is threatening you?

2. Do you have any idea what would happen AFTER you pull the trigger? If you kill someone, you are likely in deep poop. If you simply wound them, you are likely in deep poop. Remember that determination of self defense is after the fact, subject to results of an investigation, and interpretation by law officers, District Attorneys, and Judges. There WILL be consequences.

3. If you are considering defense against animals, there are very few animals that will seriously threaten you. If they do, you are probably going to be in a sleeping bag, or waders, it may be dark, and the situation is going to be really stressful. A hand gun is not the best choice for this purpose, unless you are very well trained and practice a lot. A shotgun is much better - especially at close range.

4. State laws on possesion of firearms (as previously discussed) vary widely. If you are stopped and present probable cause you may be searched without giving permission. You may be found in violation and cited or arrested.

5. When you pick up a gun, the confrontation changes. You may be required to actually use it. Food for thought.

That said, there are good alternatives for firearms intended for self defense against people and animals. I have three short arms which I carry (or not) depending on the situation I expect to meet...

a .22 caliber stainless S&W kit gun. Very handy, rust proof, and good for use on camping and fishing trips. Excellent for snakes, and for potting grouse.

A Colt 1911 80 series Officer's Model in .45 ACP. This is a small carry gun, and I can hit with it out to about 25 yards. If I ever had to use it, I expect that it would be deployed at less than 10 feet.

A .44 Magnum S&W 629 Mountain Gun. This is a serious gun, and would likely turn most people/animals - provided they were actually hit. I have carried it in Alaska and the Western US. I do not carry it while actually hunting, since I have a shotgun in my hands, and that is a superior weapon.

My two cents.

Mike S

[UncleChris]

For a handgun, I prefer and use the .45 ACP HK USP. Weapon of choice for the special forces and extremely accurate. I have big hands, so the large frame fits me well. It is a tactical weapon and designed as such.


Good call Scott, the HK USP 45 is my weapon of choice.

I only tend to take it to the range, I do not carry it on trips.

[asteffes]

I prefer the Glock 22 in .40. Works well for me.

Chris, we should go to Reed's sometime. :)

[Ursidae69]

Interesting and popular topic.

I am a dedicated bird hunter. Have been shooting and qualifying with various firearms since childhood. I often carry guns (typically shotguns) in my truck when traveling throughout the Western US.

Seems to me that you need to be very clear on a couple of things when considering a firearm for personal defense...

1. If you are threatened - seriously - how would you respond? It is always better to run from conflict rather than confront it. Can (would) you pull the trigger on someone who is threatening you?

2. Do you have any idea what would happen AFTER you pull the trigger? If you kill someone, you are likely in deep poop. If you simply wound them, you are likely in deep poop. Remember that determination of self defense is after the fact, subject to results of an investigation, and interpretation by law officers, District Attorneys, and Judges. There WILL be consequences.

3. If you are considering defense against animals, there are very few animals that will seriously threaten you. If they do, you are probably going to be in a sleeping bag, or waders, it may be dark, and the situation is going to be really stressful. A hand gun is not the best choice for this purpose, unless you are very well trained and practice a lot. A shotgun is much better - especially at close range.

4. State laws on possesion of firearms (as previously discussed) vary widely. If you are stopped and present probable cause you may be searched without giving permission. You may be found in violation and cited or arrested.

5. When you pick up a gun, the confrontation changes. You may be required to actually use it. Food for thought.

That said, there are good alternatives for firearms intended for self defense against people and animals. I have three short arms which I carry (or not) depending on the situation I expect to meet...

a .22 caliber stainless S&W kit gun. Very handy, rust proof, and good for use on camping and fishing trips. Excellent for snakes, and for potting grouse.

A Colt 1911 80 series Officer's Model in .45 ACP. This is a small carry gun, and I can hit with it out to about 25 yards. If I ever had to use it, I expect that it would be deployed at less than 10 feet.

A .44 Magnum S&W 629 Mountain Gun. This is a serious gun, and would likely turn most people/animals - provided they were actually hit. I have carried it in Alaska and the Western US. I do not carry it while actually hunting, since I have a shotgun in my hands, and that is a superior weapon.

My two cents.

Mike S


This has been a great thread, and Mike S's point about whether you really want to carry a gun is important. If you cannot deal with the consequences of killing someone you shouldn't even own a gun much less carry one. My 9mm only goes with me on trips where I am alone, no group trips, and in areas where the probability of a problem is higher. Like near the Mexican border with illegal drug traffic. One exception was when I went to the Exp Portal Rally because Goodtimes and I met to go shooting beforehand. During the event, the 9mm was locked up and unloaded.

Also, to Mike S, I have yet to meet a snake that needed killing. ;) However, to someone not trained, moving a rattlesnake out of camp is dangerous and shooting it may be justified. If I'm there, come get me! :elkgrin:

[calamaridog]

I am allowed to carry but I seldom do. If I have to travel to a "high crime" area where my "clients" frequent, then I am much more likely to carry.

I always carry on trips and I have both mounted and portable lock boxes.

I always recommend people shoot a variety of weapons before making a selection.

HK guns are VERY high quality but I'm not a fan. All shooters will find they prefer the feel of some models to others.

I co-worker of mine helped design the HK USP SOCOM (Mark 23, Mod 0).

[kevin]

Wow, it seems that everyone here has a gun. Perhaps gun manufactuers should advertise with four wheel drive and off road publications! I will throw in my 2 cents. Because I hunt I have a drawer in my rear storage system (locking) where I store/transport rifles. When I am just offroading/camping I keep a Mossberg M590A1 military spec 12 gauge. It has 8 round capacity, with four more rounds available in a speed feed stock. It also has a light. As scott said nothing carries a greater intimidation factor. I also have liscenses to carry concealed in my home state of Oregon as well as my neighboring state of Washington. I frequently carry a Glock 22 (.40 cal), high capacity mags, laser.
I like them for many of the same reasons others have stated. Reliability, accuracy, durability, simplicity, aftermarket support. I prefer guns with no hammer for concealed carry. They tend not to poke you or snag on draw.

[Nullifier]

Not to be arguementative, but yes, glocks can and do jam. It is a mechanical device, there is ALWAYS the potential for failure. No device is exempt from this, I don't care who made it or how robust the design is. My 14 year old Ruger kp90 (.45acp) has never jammed...but that doesn't mean it can't or won't. (btw, I'm not a huge fan of this weapon....unless of course SRC has made some improvements in the past 15 years...assuming of course that this model is even being produced at this point).


yea no need to have contest. You are correct all things mechanical can fail or jam. I am just saying that the Glock because if it's simplistic design is as full proof as they come. I have run about 20,000 rounds through that Glock 17over the years. I actually used to shoot steel challenge, pin, and action matches with it. I didn't do it to win I did it to train incase one day... well you know. I could actually clear a 5 pin table in an average of 4.25 seconds with a stock 9mm.

I have to be honest though I have taken great care of the Glock, I cleaned it once LOL! I have run everything from hydra shock and talon to cheap china brick ammo. In fact one day a buddy and me were on a jamming mission. after almost 2000 rounds of continuos shooting with various ammo mixed in the mags it wouldn't happen. That's all I'm saying. very little chance that it will fail at the wrong time dirty or clean.


The most effective self defence weapon is a 12 gauge shotgun. This has been proved beyond debate. 5 rounds of OO buck in a tactical shotgun will give you the best chance of not only surviving a gun fight, but it never starting in the first place. A pump shotgun chambering a round speaks beyond language barriers.


Absolutely a universal truth. I do not care where you are from. Everyone speaks 12 guage LOL! For home defense My pump has bird as the first round. I just want to pepper them the first time so I can be more accurate with my slugs.

[+ d]

as always, the valuable feedback around here is impressive! fire extinguishers, handguns, Dr. Seuss...you guys can wax poetic!

i'm encouraged by the number of guys that carry shotguns, i think for the time being i will hold off on the handgun until i can schedule some range time and take the pepsi challenge (Bryan, we'll have to make some plans:D ).

i think i'll continue with my mossberg 590, it is indeed an intimidating piece...
http://www.mossberg.com/pcatalog/images/0250665.gif
Albeit large, the 9 shot capacity results in a pretty long barrel. i have a pistol grip on it which helps shorten the overall package, but i can vouch for not wanting to fire off too many rounds with just the pistol grip! a bruised hand was the keepsake from my last trip to jacumba. i think perhaps an integrated light would be a sensible upgrade...


...I keep a Mossberg M590A1...It also has a light...
which one do you use kevin?

[Nullifier]

Yep thats what I have right near my bed. I have stock on mine so incase I don't actually need ammo I can beat some *** with it too.

[Nullifier]

Wow, it seems that everyone here has a gun. Perhaps gun manufactuers should advertise with four wheel drive and off road publications! I will throw in my 2 cents. Because I hunt I have a drawer in my rear storage system (locking) where I store/transport rifles. When I am just offroading/camping I keep a Mossberg M590A1 military spec 12 gauge. It has 8 round capacity, with four more rounds available in a speed feed stock. It also has a light. As scott said nothing carries a greater intimidation factor. I also have liscenses to carry concealed in my home state of Oregon as well as my neighboring state of Washington. I frequently carry a Glock 22 (.40 cal), high capacity mags, laser.
I like them for many of the same reasons others have stated. Reliability, accuracy, durability, simplicity, aftermarket support. I prefer guns with no hammer for concealed carry. They tend not to poke you or snag on draw.

I do not think the gun manufacturers should advertise in 4wd mads. We got enough problems with out the anti gun crowd focusing on us LOL!

[calamaridog]

David,

We can put together a shoot sometime in the next couple months. I'll make sure we have many different calibres and manufactures to choose from.

The benefit to having my buddy along is his expertise at training. I'm a fair shot but not an experienced instructor. There is a huge difference in being competant with your own gun and being able to properly instruct someone else.

[crawler#976]

my personal choices are as follows:

1. AR15 or clone w/ an AimPoint CompM (I use a BushMaster V-Match flattop w/ standard handguard)

2. Berreta FP1201 w/ SureFire 6P forearm light

3. Glock 23 for "normal" concealed carry, with a behind the hip holster w/ concealing shirt or jacket, or carried in a FAG bag (fast action gun) for the PC folks

4. S&W 442 for deep concealed carry (ankle rig or pocket carry)

Why those choices???

1. A tactical carbine is easy to handle, is relatively powerful, and can be used from 0 to 300M with good accuracy. The Aimpoint w/ 4MOA dot allows me to get on target extremely fast, yet will still allow for precision shot placement at longer range. With lightweight varmint bullets, (40, 45 grain) home protection use is viable. These rounds will not easily over penatrate - they break up on light weight materials like drywall or wall studs.

2. A 6-1/4 pound 12 guage w/ 3 rounds of 00 followed by 2 rounds of slug for general outdoor protection or 5 rounds of slugs for dangerous game protection (think Salmon season). There is a serious problem w/ over penatration w/ either of the above loads in a home use situation. As a rule I use #4 buck as a home defense load.

3. Glock 23 - 13 rounds standard mag for CCW, plus a 15 round G22 mag as a spare. If the situation can't be solved with that, your in serious doodoo. Sized between the G22 and G27, it offers good concealability with a large capacity magazine. I prefer to carry in a MadDog behind the hip Kydex holster. Malfuntions are rare, but generally are easily solved by the tap, rack, flip method.

4 The good ol' alloy S&W 442. I consider the 38 Special and 380 ACP to be the minimum effective rounds for CCW carry. A DAO revolver is still an effective fighting handgun if you train with itand understand how to solve them. Simple to use, a simple mafluntion just requires another pull of the trigger to get it going again. The worst possible malfunction is getting a case stuck under the extractor, but with practive it can be cleared quickly. I carry a speed strip or a two by two pouch for reloading. A full speed loader is also an option, but the other two allow you to keep the gun full without dumping out loaded rounds.

I've been fortunate to live in the Prescott, AZ. area. We are home to Col. Cooper's GunSite, Chuck Taylor's ASAA and Mark Fricke's AFTT. All top notch schools, and I've had the opportunity to train with all of them over the years. Chuck Taylor's instruction was perhaps the most informative for me, and I use his techniques and ideas the most.

enough rambling...

[+ d]

You don't need no stinking hand gun!

oh c'mon swr! "NEED" has got nuthin to do with it!

if it was all about need (vs want) we wouldn't have anything to talk about 'round here!



again thanks for the generous offer bryan, we'll talk soon, black mountain!?

[+ d]

my personal choices are as follows...

impressive array, i will not be trying to steal your lunch money anytime soon!
thanks for the input.

[zimm]

heres a study on sizes. the the top two Ruger (SA) and Tarus (DA) are in 45 long colt. i believe they are much better camp gun setup than a 45 auto being they are reliable low pressure revolvers with the same ballistics as the 45 auto. the lower right is a 38/357 J frame smith. a good variety of defensive bullets, but lumpy on the back. the lower left is a Kahr Arms PM40 .40 cal. this gun is the shiznit. good power, outstanding reliability, easy shooting, and the most comfortable gun i ever carried. i would recommend anybody looking for a defensive gun give this baby a try out. of course, they just came out with a PM45. soooo....

[erin]

:coffee:
Crawler 976
When did you last train with Taylor? I have always wanted to attend some of his coureses. Have you had any experience with Louis Awerbuck when you trained at Yavapia? His tactical shotgun expertise is very intersting.

[calamaridog]

The lower left is a Kahr Arms PM40 .40 cal. this gun is the shiznit. good power, outstanding reliability, easy shooting, and the most comfortable gun i ever carried. i would recommend anybody looking for a defensive gun give this baby a try out. of course, they just came out with a PM45. soooo....


I'm going to get a PM40 soon. I can't hardly wait:elkgrin:

[offroad_nomad]

My home computer died and I've missed out on all this wonderful discussion. Many good, informative posts and I'd like to add my .2 cents. My daily carry handgun for the last 12 years has been a Glock 23 (.40 S&W) and I also carry a Sig P229 as well.

David, sorry for the stupid question, but have you owned a handgun before or shot a friend's handgun? Even if it's been a while since you last shot a handgun, I'd suggest you find a local range that rents handguns and rent several types to see and feel how they fit in your hands.

Also, I'd suggest if you haven't done so yet, look into whether the county sherrif is a friendly-sort that will issue/approve a concelded carry (CCW) permit for you. I've heard horror stories that it's difficult to get one if you're not from Hollywood or well-known.

Definately check out the local restrictions regarding firearms in state parks in California. You won't be able to carry or transport a firearm in any national park.

Regards.

[calamaridog]

David, sorry for the stupid question, but have you owned a handgun before or shot a friend's handgun? Even if it's been a while since you last shot a handgun, I'd suggest you find a local range that rents handguns and rent several types to see and feel how they fit in your hands.

I've got him covered. We'll have many types and calibres to choose from when we take him out.


Also, I'd suggest if you haven't done so yet, look into whether the county sherrif is a friendly-sort that will issue/approve a concelded carry (CCW) permit for you. I've heard horror stories that it's difficult to get one if you're not from Hollywood or well-known.

Not going to happen in San Diego County. Very few of the Sheriff's in CA will issue a permit to a regular citizen.

[crawler#976]

:coffee:
Crawler 976
When did you last train with Taylor? I have always wanted to attend some of his coureses. Have you had any experience with Louis Awerbuck when you trained at Yavapia? His tactical shotgun expertise is very intersting.

My ASAA classes with Chuck were back in 1994, 1995. All were 2 day classes with 200 to 600 round shot per course. Started with Basic Pistol, CCW, Intermediate, Tactical, and finished with a night time class on low/no light Tactical.

Shotgun and Carbine were from AFTT.

My two CCW renewal classes have been out at GunSite (even tho it's not required, I take the full 16 hour class over - I get more range time with instruction that way)

I've meet Louis at a local gun store, but haven't had the privilage to train with him.

[mutineer]

On expeditions in Venezuela I usually carried a .357 S&W revolver, SS with a 4" barrel. Thankfully I never had to shoot anybody, but did use it on plenty of snakes and used it once to scare a big jaguar that had been trailing us. Great gun, very stable, comfortable grip, and I dropped in rivers a couple of times with no ill effect after cleanup.



how did you get them home?

[LateNate]

On expeditions in Venezuela I usually carried a .357 S&W revolver, SS with a 4" barrel. Thankfully I never had to shoot anybody, but did use it on plenty of snakes and used it once to scare a big jaguar that had been trailing us. Great gun, very stable, comfortable grip, and I dropped in rivers a couple of times with no ill effect after cleanup.

How is having a gun and crossing boarders? I would think to bring one, but I would imagine it would be difficult to cross boarders with it. It seems it would bring more trouble there than help when the situation needs it.

[RMP&O]

I wonder what a person might be afraid of that makes them carry a gun?

Snakes!? Come on they are beautiful creatures that should be photographed not shot.

Big Cats? Same thing....

Bears? Same thing....

Wolves? Same thing....

Gangsters? Unlikely you will win, you are better of just giving them what they want. Or try making friends with them, not all gangsters are bad people!

Bandits? Um do we have bandits in the USA? Good luck carying a firearm in another country. Unless you know locals you can't get your hands on one. Try to take yours and you will end up in jail fast. Not to mention you are not going to survive if you pull out your hand gun while a bunch of guys are robbing you holding AK47s!

Leave the guns at home and or take them hunting.

Buy some bear spray, it will stop anything and everything that you might fear and it won't kill it which may very well result in you going to prison. Killing not only a human being but a bear or large cat can end you up in jail with a hefty fine. Bear spray in a big can has a 40ft+ range. To close for you? To bad, the bear gets to live and you stay out of jail!

[Fireman78]

I'm not giving any opinions on what anybody else should carry, after the last discussion I got into about that,, nor will I ask certain pacifists why they have the viewpoint that ALL GUNS ARE EVIL and all people and all of Earths creatures are happy loving fuzzy bunnies. HOWEVER.. I, me, myself, carry a Springfield XD-M 9mm. 19 round capacity, compact gun with a match barrel and a tac-light.. But that's just me. This opinion is not to be construed as anything but just that. :sombrero:

[FAW3]

"...but I am interested in what you guys had to share as far as choosing/using/transporting a hand gun".

Choosing and using:

Since you have the Mossburg shotgun...you have the long gun aspect already filled. The range of available shell loadings, barrels, stocks and the like that can be put on a standard pump shotgun make it about the most versatile low cost firearm platform available. Ammo is available about everywhere, and at costs that support practice. From dove to bear, skeet to self defense...it will work. Learn and master it and it will never fail you. Only shortcomings: big to carry, hard to conceal. Suggestions: get a sling.

A handgun...although they can be used for many tasks...the down and dirty were talking about in this discussion is personal defense, ease of carry, and potential for concealment. Actual effective defensive use of a handgun requires a level of competence that is much harder to achieve than with a long firearm. With that being said and focusing on the criteria of a multi-use handgun to carry when exploring/camping/boating, etc. I would get a practical defensive caliber in a handgun type that can do many things at a reasonable cost for weapon and ammo, and is easy to learn to shoot. A revolver in .38 S&W/.357 or even a larger caliber .44special/.44mag (explanation: a .357 can shoot hot hunting loads...or milder .38 ammo...same as the .44 special/.44 mag. set-up - sort of a dual use handgun). Get a stainless steel model. I am not discounting semi-autos...but the focus here is practical expedition type use. A couple of hundred bucks and you'll have a easy to learn, cheap to practice, effective weapon platform. Get a good quality belt carry holster, Galco, Safariland, Banchi...not some "fits all POC" and a suitable belt. Time to start picking clothes that allow you to carry...tee and gym shorts don't work.

Transport/Security:

One trick to locking a pump up is of course to run a cable lock through the open action and secure it to a other object.

In my cars & RV, I have a push button lock boxes. All the same type, all the same combination.

Last comment...become skilled, know the law, and be prepared - to walk away, do almost anything to defuse a conflict...live and let live - even creeps, jerks and two legged predators have rights...and never display or use a firearm toward another person unless it is your last resort - there will be personal, financial and legal consequences that you will be dealing with for several years. But given all the above...I STILL CHERISH MY RIGHT UNDER LAW TO DEFEND MYSELF AND MY FAMILY - and those who fail to see the "what if's" I pray never find out what can lurk in the shadows of the human race.

[tmac]

I wonder what a person might be afraid of that makes them carry a gun?


Bandits? Um do we have bandits in the USA?
Leave the guns at home and or take them hunting.


Why yes............ yes we do. They come across the southern border that I happen to live near. I explore with others the southern desert areas here in Arizona and you never know what you may come across.
I carry for personal protection and I hope that I never need to use it, but it is there and no I won't leave it at home.

[tac]

first off let me say hi to everyone,new to the site here.

so i saw this post and decided to add my 2cents in...lol.first and formost id like to touch on gun laws,they will vary state to state and sometimes they may change from county to county in your own state..so where do you find the laws for your area start with a call to your local or state police,visit your local gun store,but never ever listen to the advice of your buddies or the internet....doin the wrong thing with a gun on ill advice from the internet or your friend could get you killed,thrown in jail ect...now as far as getting a permit this too will change from state to state..some states you will have 0 chance of getting 1 and some you wont have any permits and then you have shall issue state these states will give you a permit as long as your background checks out,and as far as i know you must follow your states law when carrying a gun in the park systems...now what to carry and why....this is up2 you, my suggestion is find a shooting range and rent different guns till you find 1 that fits you (you pick your gun ,your gonna shoot it) also i suggest you take a tactical shooting class rather than just a range lane shooting at paper...why...well tactical shooting is what your gonna be doin if you pull that gun,not target shooting,tactical classes are gonna teach you to clear jams in your guns,reloads,multi threat attacks ect.....think about it if animals are why your taking the gun in the woods take bear mace. also most animal attacks happen when you accidently walk up on a bear or what have you and you and the critter are both suprised and the critter will bolt or attack....the bear mace easy point and spray and yes it does work,now if the bear or other critter is on you can you get to the gun to even use it?same applies to cougers..(not the older ladies who like the young guys..lol)bear spray...1st and only if you need too.....and thats pretty much it for critters that you need to worry about.now,as for people you may come accross is another story...along the southern border of the USA you got drug smugglers,human trafficers ect.and in national parks all over the US you got ppl growing weed and they will defend the crops they are paid to grow and protect and if you find 1 of these grows watch for bobby traps. you also just got odd ppl out on the trails...lol.so what to carry,well ill start with glocks,i love all of mine but not a great trail gun for the critters and ALL semi-autos jam some just less than others and glocks got the safty on the trigger so this may not be the best for someone new to guns,now the revolver great for the outdoors 357mag is my choice bc i can load it with 357 or 38 and i can use snake shot in revolver which you cant in semi. shotgun or rifle.....well why are you hunting,if your just hiking and camping a handgun is fine if your in grizzly territory bear mace and at min .357mag or bigger..44,480,454,500mag ect. if you along that southern border and the gun is for protection against ppl ,well for the newbie to guns and your taking a rifle/shotgun take the shotgun easy to aim and the sound of a pump shotgun just cocking will send ppl runnin,easy to aim and avail with 18inch barrels and extended mags and run from 300-1000s....mossburg or remington are great choices,if you are thinking rifle well i like stag arms,rock river ARs but with these you will attract alot of attention of everyone cuz they are in short and plain terms an assult rifle,you may just want to get a good ol lever action rifle(note:some lever action rifles use handgun rounds so if you got a 45 revolver on your hip and a 45 rifle strapped to your pack your set 1 gun breaks still got 1 left and extra ammo)..get a good gun(used police glocks run 300-350,new glock 500plus, revolvers ruger,s&w,300plus)just do your reserch before you buy,and really for animals bear spray works and it works great,i keep mine on a holster on my left backpack strap and gun on my right hip and of course my knife too..i hope in some way this helps someone...please feel free to ask me questions

[dwh]

I'm a gorilla. I can, and have, shot at skeet with a 12 ga. pump - one handed with a pistol grip. (And yes, I broke the clays. And yes, they were in the air. :D ) I can also pop off 240 gr. .44 mag all day long one handed.

Having said that, I carry one of these in plain view as a camp gun in a custom made leather flap holster with molded sight channel. Ruger MKII Govt. Target, 7" bull barrel in stainless:

http://ee.ar15.com/uploadImages/20091020/99359/Uploaded_633916797806562500_File.jpg

10 rounds of .22LR hollow point does most things I need a gun for out in the boonies. (99.9% of the time it just gets used for plinking.) I have a couple of spare mags, but they almost never get used. It's capable of shooting 1" groups at 50 yds once it's warmed up - if I could hold it steady enough. I can't. Tends to drift a hair toward 10 o'clock as it warms up when fired several times from a cold start. I just aim the first couple shots a hair toward 4 o'clock and I'm in the ballpark. I looked at the factory bench test targets of half a dozen of these before I picked mine.

I'm a southpaw so it hangs under the left hand.


Occasionally, I'll reach into one of my right hand pockets and find one of these little bad boys. S&W Model 40, 5-round .38 DA only with grip safety:

http://www.tactical-life.com/online/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/lemon.jpg

BLOODY LOUD and has more of a kick than most people expect - the .38 is a punchy little cartridge and does a perfectly adequate job of making holes in things. DA only is a bit of a pain at first, but once you have the coordination to operate the trigger finger independently from any other muscles, it's easy. I can usually get all 5 in the 10 ring on a silhouette target at 25', rapid fire, right-handed, Weaver stance. I can hold it in my hand without anyone noticing, which I like a lot. If I don't need to use it, I can just tuck it away with no one the wiser. If I do need it, the first clue anyone has that I have it is when it goes BOOM!

Another thing I really like about it is that it can be wrapped in a baggie and hidden in various places on any truck frame where it would take a very thorough search to find it.

I would say I never leave home without it, but I'll take the 5th instead.

[ssssnake529]

Get a small semi-auto carbine in 9mm or 45.

Ruger makes a nice 9mm carbine. Compact, easy to shoot, more accurate than a pistol.

[bob91yj]

I'm on the same page as "tac".

I'm not a gun guy by any stretch, but after being trapped in a pup tent with a bear sniffing it while camped at Rubicon Springs a few years back, I decided that I needed more security than a 3-D Mag Lite offered.

We now carry a stainless steel Ruger .357 with a 4" barrel as a trail gun. I told the owner at my local gunshop what I needed. Stupid simple, easy to take care of, reliable without the best of care in a desert environment.

I've also had a Marlin 1894 Cowboy lever action rifle on order forever, also in .357 caliber. No particular need for the long gun, I've just always wanted one. Both guns are about as stupid reliable as you can get, and easy enough for a novice owner like myself and my wife to use.

[kelub]

This might be my first post on this site... I've been lurking for a good while now, though, and have thoroughly enjoyed the knowledge and maturity from all members. I thought I'd give an opinion, as well as tell a story.

I carry a Glock 23 .40cal. I used to carry an HK USP Compact, loved it, but I didn't like the hammer or the external safety that much. I want to either carry chambered and ready to go, or unchambered (for safety when it's not directly on my person). The .40 caliber is a good mix of stopping power and quantity of bullets, and the glock is not only reliable (I also tend to not clean my guns as often as recommended) but inexpensive to customize/accessorize (the HK extra magazines were $60-$100!!!!). For home defense, I primarily have a 12 gauge that I hope to get the shorter barrel for next month (currently 28", feels like I'm ready to go joust; getting the 18.5"). I'd like to carry the shotgun with me on longer journeys - for example, a planned trip to Big Bend later in the year.

Why carry? Let me share an experience.

Several years ago, my wife, my (at the time) 4-year old and 6 month old daughters, and I were traveling to Georgia to visit relatives. We left late, so we planned to stop at a cheap motel off the highway, sleep, and be on our way early the next morning. We stopped at the Mississipi/Alabama border. Pulling up to our room, I notice that we are in a horseshoe: to the east is a swimming pool, while to the north and west are rooms. Our room is in the building on the north. There were two large pickup trucks parked perpendicular to each other right outside our room, and our relatively small car was totally out of view from our room.

While unpacking the car, I notice a white Chevy Caprice circling the area several times. It would sometimes stop and watch while we unpacked. Now, this was around midnight, so it was relatively deserted outside. There was one other person up on the 2nd floor walking around, but they were minding their own business. The car was blasting loud music, and would sometimes pull to the other side of the western building of the motel and park. I could hear them and was able to discern a general idea of where they were based on the music. At some point during this, I shifted my weapon from small-of-back to directly in front, in my waist band, covered up by my shirt.

After getting the car unpacked, I went out to try and find a better place to park. Obviously I noticed that we were being watched, and at that point was *convinced* the car was going to be gone by the morning. I had originally parked up by the western building, next to one of the trucks. I called my wife from my cell to hers, and had her look out the window to tell me when she could see the car. I backed the car up into a spot directly behind me, with the pool behind the car.

As soon as I put the car in park, the Caprice flew into the parking area, directly in front of me, forming a T. They then backed up slightly at an angle, so that the back of their car was facing the pool, and the back door was closer to me. The back door of the Caprice opened, and I saw inside the car: three guys, all around 16-19, all wearing *all blue*. Hats, shorts, t-shirts, were all blue, on all three (well, ok: the guy in the back was dressed that way. The guys in the front were wearing blue hats and t-shirts, so I assume blue shorts as well.) I was still inside the car, on the phone with my wife: phone in left hand, elbow on the door, right hand on the handle of the door, prepared to throw the door open with as much force as I could. The guy in the back seat took a step out of the car towards me, stops, looks back in the car, gets back in, and they drive off. The situation took less than 30 seconds. We packed up the car in record speed and got out of Dodge. (We were able to get a refund on the motel, and the clerk told me that the police had been called twice on those guys, but had not yet come out.)

So... what's the point? The guys got out of there and I never had to use my gun, right? Well... that was by the grace of God, period. Point is, I have the keys to the room that my wife and two young daughters are in. I have no idea what the intentions of these guys are. I can't assume they "just" wanted the car--if that's the case, why not wait until I go inside? I am obligated, as husband and father, to protect them.

I can tell you that it seemed like time stopped, or at least went into slow motion. I played through multiple scenarios, and had already decided who I was shooting when, and what to do if <X> happened, etc, all in the time it took for that young man to step out of the car, rethink his actions, and get back in.

I think they thought I was oblivious to them, and they'd catch me by surprise. When he stepped out of the car, I was looking him right in the face, and we made eye contact. I did not fold, cower, or in any way give off that they were intimidating me, and I have to think that was key in everyone walking away.

My in-laws, who were always iffy on me owning a gun with the kids, when we told them what happened... the first thing they said was "Thank God you had a gun." Had the situation escalated, I/we may not have survived. 1-on-3, not good odds. I certainly didn't want it to get to that. But I definitely had a better chance of survival with one than without one, and I will never travel without one.

Sorry to be so long, but I do think it's worth sharing a real-world experience. Often in these conversations we talk in hypotheticals, and I wanted to share *exactly* why I choose to carry a gun.

[john101477]

As has been stated by others the 45acp is also my fave. I carry a taurus PT145, which is a smaller pistol based off the 24/7 pistol instead of the Millennium Pro frame which it gets it's name from.
As Scott stated the 12 gauge pump speaks a universal language. Although I have a cpl my rifles see far more action

[oldmant]

I would love to see this stay a technical discussion and not a political ( why do you need a gun ) conversation.

My travel consists of local CO trails.


I carry bear spray and a 12ga or 9mm when out on the trail. For bear country ill have my spray and my 12ga SLP with slugs just in case. For areas with more human traffic and less large wildlife ill carry a XDm in 9mm. I like capacity. 7 rounds of 12ga slugs and 20 rounds of 9mm is great. I dont want to carry a bunch of extra rounds or magazines.

I have an AR but it just dosent seem to fit the environment when doing the trips I do.

It all depends on the amount of risk your willing to take. Some, for me, is fine but im not going to be careless by traveling to remote areas without reasonable protection.

[Caoboy]

I carry my Glock 30 with me, always, whenever I'm out camping. I'm hesitant to get a CCW but my county ( stanislaus) is getting relatively 'easy' to get approved in. California isn't so bad if you know your rights through the laws we have. www.calguns.net is a great forum to read on and find out all the info you'll ever need.

I have a .45, and it's a compact, because

A) I got a good deal on it
B) Holds 10 rounds (and if you need more, you probably need a swat team too)
C) light and easy to shoot (for me)


I'm not big. I'm only 5/8" and weigh 160 when I'm full. .45 is not necessarily cheap, but when the max you can have here is 10 rounds, I'm going with the biggest caliber I can get, that is still relatively easy to find in stores.

9mm is a hot, fast round, and fun to shoot, very easy to shoot, and glocks are cheap and reliable..

I wouldn't go anything smaller than 9mm, 380 is just as expensive as .45, so there's no point in that unless you are getting a small light carry gun as a back up.

38spl is fun to shoot, but if you get a revolver, get one that is a .357mag so you can shoot both 38spl and 357mag.

.44mag is fun to shoot.

.22 is always cheap and if you are on BLM and know a place to shoot, best to teach new people with it. I have a Ruger 22/45 that I always spend the most time shooting at the range with, just because it's cheap, easy, and soft on the hands.

That's all the experience I have... I have rifles as well, but those don't go camping with me. Maybe if we are on BLM areas they will.

[java]

for budget, i love my hi-point. new for ~$150 no frills, basic as can be and goes bang. bought mine new, have 600+ rounds thru it with no probs at all.
i didnt have a big budget, and didnt need something fancy. fits my needs great. left me more money for ammo to practice with, this is EXTREMELY important no matter waht you choose to purchase.

[haven]

Thanks for this thoughtful discussion.

I'd like to reiterate the point made by others: Most countries outside USA will not allow you to import a handgun. The penalty for trying to sneak one through is severe. Before traveling, check carefully with the consular representatives of the country you plan to visit about the possibility of traveling with a firearm of any type.

[thospb]

My vote is for the 1911, but only because that is what I have carried for 15 years. The most important varieable is what is comfortable to you and what you can hit with. Other things to consider is what is legal where you intend to travel IE: handguns are strictly verboten in Canada or Mexico. The 12 gauge pump is the sound of authority recognized 'round the world.

[TomMonkey]

Or try making friends with them, not all gangsters are bad people!



Seriously? You got to be kidding me.

[Jeremy Fisher]

First I gotta say...check local laws regarding carrying/transporting weapons. You will find CA isn't very friendly on the matter.

But that aside, I continue to fail to see the appeal of a 9mm. The only advantage it has is the capacity (number of bullets) in a standard size frame. The problem is that the projectile travels too fast. There is a reason law enforcement agencies and the military are going BACK to the .45 acp after falling into the "more bullets is better" trap back in the 90's. It has to do with the amount of energy that the projectile will transfer into the target. A small diameter, fast moving, light weight projectile simply will not transfer as much energy as a larger diameter, slower moving, heavier projectile will. Why? Because the 9mm has a tendancy to over penetrate (read: come out the back side) of the target. The .45 isn't as likely to do this. (can you tell I'm a fan of the .45 acp?)

There are several rounds inbetween the 9 and the .45 that have proven a good compromise. Look into the .40 s&w, and the .357 sig. The thing I don't like about the .40, is that with it's really high chamber pressure, it developes one hell of a recoil considering it's size. This makes it harder to control for people who don't go out shooting very often (myself included). I don't recall if I have ever shot a .357 sig or not.....of course, I haven't really followed the firearms industry in....heck.....8 or 9 years...there may be more options out there that are suitable.....

But all things ballistically aside...you should be able to control the weapon of your choice. It doesnt' matter how many bullets it holds, or how much energy each of those bullets can transfer to it's target if you can't hit the target. I strongly suggest you find a local firing range that rents guns (many do...er...at least they used to), so you can "test drive" them. Find a model and calibre that you can control, and offers the ballistics you like, and go for it. Don't get caught up in the WWW trap of "I have such and such of a gun and it's the best there ever was and anyone who thinks differently is an idiot". Much like a car/truck/SUV, or a new mattress, or a new dog....what is right for one person may or may not be right for you.

Any FMJ round will over penetrate. If you get the right 9mm round however, they don't have any over penetration issues.

And don't forget your basic laws of physics, you make much more energy with speed than you do with mass. Therefore, a faster round will always be more mass-efficient than a slower round. That is, if you can stop it inside of the target, which many 9mm rounds can do.

I'm not arguing that the 9mm is the best round ever, just that it is a very practical, very effective round. If I had to survive off of only three firearms, they would be: a 12 awg shotgun, 9mm glock, and a .22 rifle :)

[wild1]

I finally have the perfect setup for my needs. My wife and I live in Montana but also travel a great deal in the southwest during the winter.I need a setup that is flexible enough to contend with a grizzly but also serves as a reasonable self defense system. I currently carry a Winchester takedown trapper model 1892 leveraction in 44 magnum. In addition I have a 44 magnum S&W 329 in a chest holster and a S&W airweight 22 eight shot revolver in a conventional holster. All three of these guns together weigh under eight pounds and fit in a 23 inch Galati Int'l takedown case with room for a couple reloads worth of ammunition for each of them. I seldom use more then one of them at a time but for differn't situations each has it's sweet spot. The really nice thing about the 44 magnum is that you can chose the level of power and match it to the intended use.

[orangeTJ]

I'm rather simplistic and run with a Ruger SP101 .357 revolver.

It's kind of small, but with revolvers - you can't beat them for reliability and ease of use. Ease of use is my biggest reason for having it.

[PsychoBurb]

I can agree with the ease of use statement. And considering that I would recommend to the OP a revolver, something around the 38spcl or 375 magnum with a 3-5" barrel. Double action of course.

I also agree with earlier posts that racking a pump shotgun relates in any language that you mean business. But my view on that is, if there ain't one in the chamber, you're already a step behind me.

On the debate of semi-auto handguns, like everyone else, I am biased. I love my 1911 based 45's. Very reliable, tough, long lasting and relatively accurate handguns. They can be had in various qualities from mild to wild, and that usually is reflected in the price. But there are a few "sleepers" out there. Rock Island Arms builds a nice economical 1911, that is reasonably accurate and functions very well. As a defense weapon for a novice, anything single action would not be my recommendation though. Double action should be a staple in the gun's function.

[stevo]

First-off, I will admit that I am very fortunate that I currently hold an unrestricted CCW permit for the state of Calif; and since Ariz. is the only other place I seem to go, the legality of carrying a handgun is almost a non-issue. (I will admit though that I have been carrying ever since my return from Nam over 40 years ago-permit or no.) I prefer big bullets ie: .45acp. My current favorite pistol is the Springfield XD-45 and (for the K.I.S.S lover in me) a S&W mod 25 in .45acp is always close by. While I have never "brandished" the weapon, it's meer appearence has helped me to defuse more than one "sticky situation". Even though I try to keep all of my equipment locked and secure, I have used trip wires with noise makers around my camp site (day and night) not only to alert me but to alert the intruder as well. Even if my camp site is empty at the time, he doesn't know it.
Cheers, Stevo

[demonslaer]

my mossburg 500 is in my jeep 99% of the time loaded with 10- 2" 00buck & on me my p-14 para 45acp + my wife with her mossy 500 & her xdm 9mm