Can I use a carabiner?

[DaktariEd]

I have an odd connection for my trailer safety chains to my towing rig. I have to thread each chain through an eye bolt (up under the bumper) and back on itself, then attach the link. And it only slides through at one angle. A nuisance and time consuming.
I found an oval Black Diamond spring loaded carabiner in my garage "junk bin" with a 2000 kg weight rating.
Any reason I can't use this type of carabiner to attach these safety chains to the rig? :confused:

http://www.bajataco.com/smileys/safari.gif
Ed

[DaveInDenver]

I would think it's safer to use a quick link.

12441

OK, that said, I do use my old suspect (or known) 'biners and slings for rigging stuff... As to whether or not it's safe, though, my guess is that it would be safe, but being aluminum I would worry that the steel chain and steel eyes would wear it down.

[Martyn]

Ed

Not an official endorsement, but it seems reasonable to me. Andrew Walker uses a couple of hooks similar to http://www.crbrophy.com/image/scl4lrg.jpg
He posted a picture of his set up somewhere.

If you check out the safety chains and S hooks at http://www.crbrophy.com/tccx.html#tshx you can see what is commonly used.

Reading the specs on quick links a Class 111 hitch would use 17/32" S hook with a maximum load of 5000 lbs. Your carabineer has a rating of 4400 lbs.

Safety wise you may be better off buying a couple of latched hooks at a hardware store or trailer supply house.

Happy Thanksgiving!

[Willman]

Ed

Not an official endorsement, but it seems reasonable to me. Andrew Walker uses a couple of hooks similar to http://www.crbrophy.com/image/scl4lrg.jpg
He posted a picture of his set up somewhere.


I use something similar....But instead of cable....Mine is chain....

Works great and is very fast!

A boat or trailer store near ya gotta have something like above!

Happy Turkey Day!

[DaveInDenver]

Refilling my coffee and was thinking. Most climbing gear is rated in dynamic forces of kilonewtons (kN), not kilograms (kg). That's just something that popped in the noggin, but you have the 'biner in front of you and that's the one and only rating that matters. Anyway, the conversion is 1 kN is 225 lbf. If it's designed as aid gear or for continuous use, then it would have a static kg rating.

One thing to think about is how climbing gear is rated. They'd probably have a maximum one time force rating and not necessarily a working load rating (unless it's rated for aid or rescue, for example). I don't know the UIAA standard for a 'biner, but a very short length (2.6 m) of example rope has to withstand a certain number of falls with it hung over an edge with a 80 kg weight. The rope was to take a minimum of 5 of these falls without damage. In Martyn's post he mentions a steel clip, which has a rating of 5,000 lbs working, but it probably would have a much higher breaking strength.

So, I guess all I'm saying is maybe some looking into it might be in order.

[DaktariEd]

Good points, thanks....

I like the latched hooks idea.

There's a trailer supply place down the road. I'll check it out sometime...soon.

http://www.bajataco.com/smileys/safari.gif

[Jonathan Hanson]

I have lots of carabiners around, but I don't use them for automotive purposes. I strongly suspect the load ratings for aluminum carabiners are figured differently than those for steel links. Even when a carbiner is attached to a solid bolt in rock, the dynamic load on the other end is attenuated by the stretch in the rope. I could be totally wrong, but there's enough doubt to make me avoid mixing uses.

[Rezarf <><]

I have an odd connection for my trailer safety chains to my towing rig. I have to thread each chain through an eye bolt (up under the bumper) and back on itself, then attach the link. And it only slides through at one angle. A nuisance and time consuming.
I found an oval Black Diamond spring loaded carabiner in my garage "junk bin" with a 2000 kg weight rating.
Any reason I can't use this type of carabiner to attach these safety chains to the rig? :confused:

http://www.bajataco.com/smileys/safari.gif
Ed

Gotta be honest. This seems crazy to me, you have a lot riding on the line if you ever need the safety chains to provide a fail-safe. The caribeiners could do it... sure. But it is such a tiny investment to do this once and do it right.

Once I had a trailer come loose and the chains held and did there job, Ed, your stuff is SO NICE, don't take the chance that they might hold when you really need them.

I like the cables with the quick disconnect on them, my local Walmart carries them for under 20 bucks. I am probably more hyper about not screwing around when it comes to safety, brakes, steering, and hitch attachments.

Just my .02

Rezarf <><

[teotwaki]

I would think it's safer to use a quick link.

12441

OK, that said, I do use my old suspect (or known) 'biners and slings for rigging stuff... As to whether or not it's safe, though, my guess is that it would be safe, but being aluminum I would worry that the steel chain and steel eyes would wear it down.

Those things in the picture are less than three bucks each at Wally world

[DaktariEd]

Gotta be honest. This seems crazy to me, you have a lot riding on the line if you ever need the safety chains to provide a fail-safe. The caribeiners could do it... sure. But it is such a tiny investment to do this once and do it right.

Yup! That's why I like to ask around and get good input.
I think the steel latched hooks are probably made for this kind of thing. I'll be down at the trailer parts supplier over the weekend, checking it out
If I find out differently, I'll stick with my current beefy, but cumbersome Quick Links.
This is a great site to get good info & different input.
Most helpful!
http://www.bajataco.com/smileys/safari.gif

[Flounder]

Don't use the 'biner. Climbing gear ratings are given with a lot of climbing specific assumptions in mind. For example, the ratings assume the forces are applied by nice gentle bits of rope at either end, for one thing. 'biners also are fickle bits of gear and they like to be loaded just right. Any cross load or twist on a 'biner and that aluminum sheers pretty easily.

I wouldn't trust a 'biner for that application at all. Not at all.

[DaveInDenver]

This seems crazy to me, you have a lot riding on the line if you ever need the safety chains to provide a fail-safe.
Well, in the interest of fairness, there's a lot more than a run away trailer riding on whether or not a piece of climbing pro works, as in your life... I would expect that the safety ratings of climbing gear isn't just made up numbers. But like Flounder says the UIAA ratings are done with an assumption of a climbing application. But OTOH, one nice thing about a failed 'biner is they have an indication. The gate locks shut when they stretch to failure (that's why they have that hook in the gate).

[absolute]

Not a Hijack... More of a lesson learned.

A couple weeks ago I was heading to a buddy's house to pick up his car, and was using a car hauler from a different buddy. It had a slip collar neck on it and it popped off at 40MPH when I hit a few bumps:oops: !(Triple check yourself) Luckily the chains did work, and saved the (empty) trailer from punching my diff by 2-3 inches. He used HD steel hooks, I should look at the rating b/c I was happier than a pig in sh*t when I got out of my truck!!:)

[Benthosboy]

Well, in the interest of fairness, there's a lot more than a run away trailer riding on whether or not a piece of climbing pro works, as in your life...

I'm in total agreement with Rezarf on this one. After many miles of pulling everything from small trailers up to heavy haulage well in excess of 100 tons, (224,000 lb's to you folk :) ), experience has taught me to use the right kit for the job, irrespective of the cost. Then you can hitch up, click on the safety gear and admire the view instead of glancing nervously in your mirrors every few seconds and wondering if all is well behind because you saved a few quid, sorry, bucks :oops: , by using something a bit cheaper than the real thing.

Sorry to sound like an old woman but I always think how I'd feel if my trailer broke free and careered across the carriageway into the path of an oncoming car that was being driven by my dear old dad......

Martyn.

[DaktariEd]

Thanks for all the thoughts and ideas.:26_7_2:
But I do want to stress that I am not simply trying to save some money.
Money is the least of my concerns.
I am looking for a safe, strong connection, but something easier than my current setup. The carabiner came to mind first since I found one out in the garage while I was cleaning.

Not to worry...I don't cut costs on safety, nor my rig (most folks who have seen my rig will vouch for that! ;) )

Cheers!

Ed
http://www.bajataco.com/smileys/safari.gif

[Kermit]

I have had those quick links on a Bobcat trailer, they are a real pain, they rust, get debris in the threads. Always seizing up. I hate having to grab some tools just to hook up the safety chains.

Do you have to thread the chains through the eye-bolts? Just hook it to the eye-bolt instead of threading it? I have clevis safety hooks to keep them from popping off.

http://www.etrailer.com/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/lc/6495-401-04_2.jpg

[DaktariEd]

I have had those quick links on a Bobcat trailer, they are a real pain, they rust, get debris in the threads. Always seizing up. I hate having to grab some tools just to hook up the safety chains.

Do you have to thread the chains through the eye-bolts? Just hook it to the eye-bolt instead of threading it? I have clevis safety hooks to keep them from popping off.

http://www.etrailer.com/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/lc/6495-401-04_2.jpg


Now THAT's what I'm talking about!
Where did you get those???
(Yes, I do have to thread the chain through. That's the pain)

http://www.geocities.com/daktaried/safari.gif

[Big_Geek]

Now THAT's what I'm talking about!
Where did you get those???
(Yes, I do have to thread the chain through. That's the pain)


Any hardware store should have these. I've seen them at Lowe's, Home Depot, Tractor Supply, etc...

[Kermit]

Ace has steel carabiners too, but, I don't think the rating is very high.

http://www.acehardware.com/family/index.jsp?categoryId=2626261&cp=2568451.2626206.2626272

[Kermit]

(Yes, I do have to thread the chain through. That's the pain)



That is too bad. If you have to thread the chains through the eye-bolt, a clevis safety hook isn't going to help.

Not my truck, but, here is what it basicly looks like. Instead of threading you should be able to just hook the clevis to the eyebolt. I haven't seen your setup, so I could be totally wrong. Are the chains too long? Quick solution is to twist them, the other is to lop off the extra links. I have a grinder and bolt cutters if you need them.

http://www.csao.org/Uploadfiles/Magazine/vol14NO1/Images/chains.jpg

[DaveInDenver]

Any hardware store should have these. I've seen them at Lowe's, Home Depot, Tractor Supply, etc...
Like Kermit says, a good Ace probably will have them (mine has an OK selection, not great though). If you can't find them locally, McMaster-Carr (http://www.mcmaster.com/nav/enter.asp?pagenum=1368) and Grainger (http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/categories/hardware/supplies/clevis-hooks) are options, too.

[Kermit]

There a couple of Aces on Ed's side of town, one on Saint Marys, the other on Grant West of I-10.

We have a decent trailer suppy store too.

Funny you mention Grainger, I am literally right over the hill from them. Same street has the famous Nimbus beer pub, we have been talking about for the Tucson meet and greet.

[DaktariEd]

That is too bad. If you have to thread the chains through the eye-bolt, a clevis safety hook isn't going to help.


http://www.csao.org/Uploadfiles/Magazine/vol14NO1/Images/chains.jpg

No, I don't have to thread them through with a clevis hook on the end.
That would simply clip on as in your photo.

Come to think of it, I may be able to do without the threading right now...just attach the Quick link to the eyebolt. (That was a duh!).
But I prefer the simplicity of the clevis hook....and I hate struggling with the threaded quick link, especially when it's frozen closed or jammed.

http://www.geocities.com/daktaried/safari.gif

[Kermit]

....and I hate struggling with the threaded quick link, especially when it's frozen closed or jammed.

http://www.geocities.com/daktaried/safari.gif

Not so quick...when they jam, eh? I really don't like those things.

When you attach up your clevis hooks. disconnect the trailer from the hitch, then lower it into the chains to make sure your chains are short enough...also do a a couple jack knifes to make sure you chains are long enough...do it whil the trailer is attached.

Safety chains have saved my butt more than a few times.

My uncle forgot to hook them once, had the Bobcat trailer become unhooked and pass him on a decent...then plow into a graveyard, no damage to the equipment...a few dislodged head stones though.. (whoops)

[kellymoe]

I have been climbing well over 2 decades and the use of the kn. rating is fairly new to climbing gear. Most of my biners are rated in kg's. I would never use a aluminum biner for connecting a trailer but I would use a steel biner. Many of the steel biners I have are rated to 4400-5500kg. The steel links found at the local hardware store such as the quick links are not even rated and yet people dont hesitate to use them on their trailers. I am not saying go out and buy a locking steel climbing biner for trailer use but at least you know exactly what it is rated. I guarantee you that the steel climbing carabiner will be the strongest link in the chain.

[Rezarf <><]

I totally agree a 'biner is up to the task, however, with the way insurance companies work... I'd bet there would be a lot of talk if they see a climbing 'biner where a safety hook should be, it is pennies on the dollar to do it right and forget about it! :D

[Fireman78]

I have several different sized STEEL caribiners for various non-climbing uses around the house and these are VERY strong. These were all bought at REI and are made by reputable climbing companies. These have quality control standards that are not the same as "utility" caribiners you may find elsewhere. I have one that I even use to augment vehicle recovery as well. I have never been let down by these. I have, however, witnessed aluminum caribiners "explode" into a half dozen pieces when used unproperly. :rappel:

[mmtoy]

You also need to be aware that the aluminum alloy carabiners are very susceptible to corrosion. Pure aluminum oxidizes in air very quickly, and a thin film of aluminum oxide will form, protecting the interior. However, the specific alloy used in carabiners was not designed to ward off corrosion (a good climber takes care of their equipment...yada, yada), but was designed for weight/strength in a particular application. Once it's dented, chipped, etc., a carabiner that is exposed to weather quickly deteoriates into uselessness (this is why you don't use pro that's lost&found on a climb...). Do not use an aluminum alloy carabiner for any outdoor (permanent or semi-permanent) purpose where you depend on it not failing catastrophically.

[ntsqd]

I've yet to have a quick link freeze up or jam on me. Perhaps I shouldn't be in too much of a hurry to fix the transfer case leak? ;)

The next rear bumper I build will have features like this built-in so that nothing more than the chain is needed, unless horizontal as shown and then they'll have provisions for the stopper bolt.
http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=12154&d=1194988756

http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=12153&d=1194988698