Arctic Ocean Expedition: Winter 2007

[Scott Brady]

http://www.expeditionswest.com/adventures/2007/arctic_ocean_expedition/artic-exp-logo.gif

WEB PAGE and BLOG (http://www.expeditionswest.com/arctic_ocean/)

Chris and I will be driving to the Arctic Ocean via the ice roads in the NWT all the way to Tuk and the Arctic Ocean.

It will be a 3 week assault, with some marathon driving segments.

Driver/Logistics: Scott Brady
Driver/Navigation: Chris Marzonie

[Nullifier]

Ya know when we spoke about it I figured your were crazy enough to do it LOL! Don't forget your long johns!

[goodtimes]

Hey Scott. Your nuckin futs.

:victory:

[ErrinV]

Damn, this sounds like it would be a blast. Hmmmmm.

[datrupr]

BRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!

Good luck, I can't wait to hear about it.

[Scott Brady]

Hey Scott. Your nuckin futs.

:victory:

Yeah, but you already knew that :smilies27

[Doin_It]

I'm not sure how I missed reading this post till today...oh well. I'm also not sure why some of our other fun lovin members think your'e nuckin futs. Remember, it's because of the good 'ol cold winters up here that us folks here in Alberta and Alaska are able to get out on the ice roads on the frozen lakes etc. to extract all that oil, (30% of the known world oil reserve is in Alberta you know, so we need winter, Alberta and Alaska give each resident dividend checks each year cause theres so much extra cash in the gov. coffers) So a winter trip would be a blast. We're out there every day in the bush just a givin her. There are literally 1000's and 1000's of miles of roads in the northern bush. Example, take out your trusty Rand McNally and find "Manning" in northern Alberta, on Highway 35 then Fort Nelson, on the Alaska Highway, in BC to the north west. There are no roads on the map right, but in the winter you can travel on winter roads (no chains) between the two places. Or you notice a lake in the top northwest corner of Alberta, in the summer it's a fly in fishing camp, with guys comming in the summer from the US and having to pay $5000 for the week of fishing. Well, in the winter you can drive in and ice fish all you want for "free". (You'd have to pay to stay in a open oil drilling camp up there if you wanted, or just camp) So any way, all that to say winter camping/expiditing allows you to do things you'd never get to do in the summer, and in a whole different way. It's a riot.

[Jonathan Hanson]

I think this is a great idea. You could drive all the way to Tuktoyaktuk down the Mackenzie. And your truck is light enough that you wouldn't have to worry about the "ice wave" effect.

What's that, you ask?

Occasionally when the semi-truck drivers are making the run to Tuk from Inuvik, the weight of their truck pushes a bulge of ice ahead of it. Very occasionally this bulge reaches a point where it essentially explodes and the entire semi plunges through the ice into the depths of the river/ocean. Sometime the driver escapes, sometimes not.

But you wouldn't have to worry about that.

Most likely.

[BajaTaco]

I think this is a great idea. You could drive all the way to Tuktoyaktuk down the Mackenzie. And your truck is light enough that you wouldn't have to worry about the "ice wave" effect.



Funny you should mention that, I was just discussing it with my dad last night.



... But you wouldn't have to worry about that.

Most likely.

I wonder if Scott has weighed the tacoma lately... :D

[Scott Brady]

I think this is a great idea. You could drive all the way to Tuktoyaktuk down the Mackenzie. And your truck is light enough that you wouldn't have to worry about the "ice wave" effect.

But you wouldn't have to worry about that.

Most likely.

That is the plan, ice waves and all :ar15:

I am actually quite geeked about this trip. Just all of the specialized research and gear will keep me occupied well into the night.

[Doin_It]

They patrol the ice roads due to the major money spent building them, you speed, you turn around and go home.

[paulj]

Are ordinary civilians allowed on these ice roads, or just truckers hauling cargo to the mines, etc. I suppose things are different for the road north from Inuvik than for the roads from Yellowknife to the mines.

Here's a web page that may answer my questions:

http://www.hwy.dot.gov.nt.ca/highways/
http://www.gov.nt.ca/Transportation/Programs/PublicAffairs/Documents/travelinfo/477_highway.pdf
This document distinguishes between publicly maintained winter roads, and privately built ones.

http://www.gov.nt.ca/Transportation/hwyinfo/images/highways_map2.gif

[Scott Brady]

Paul, I think you are right. Many of the roads require permits.

[Brian McVickers]

Scott,
You may need to take along some form of a sand ladder to help you across any cracks. The Discovery Channel showed the truckers using these sometimes.:archaeolo

[blaze one]

This sounds like a incredible expedition . I hope you keep us posted on the equipment , and any other info a person would need if they wanted to take this trip one day . I think this is one of those things that i need to put on my "things to do before i die " list .
BTW , would you be coming through from BC or Alberta ?

[Scott Brady]

3,838 Miles.... on the way up :elkgrin: from Prescott to Tuk
1,551 Miles from Tuk to Anchorage

We are evaluating the cost of shipping from Anchorage to L.A. and flying back to Prescott.

[paulj]

When we drove the Dempster in 1988, we crossed paths with a group of 60 Italian cars (little 4wd Fiats, I believe). Apparently one group drove them north from Vancouver to Inuvik, and then flew home. Another drove them back south. Each had a roof top tent. We passed the bulk of the group at Eagle Plains.

At one campsite in that area, we also saw a bus with a bunch of roof top tents.

paulj

[paulj]

I suspect that most nights on a trip like this would be spent inside, at motels and road houses along the way. After all, it will be cold, and there won't be many places to pull of the plowed roads and camp.

But if you want to be prepared for some cold weather camping, consider taking along a Kifaru tipi and stove. They are a bit pricy ($1000+ for the set, depending on size), but hard to beat for a combination of lightweight and warmth.

http://www.kifaru.net/stovspex.htm

[Scott Brady]

Thanks for the post Paul.

We plan on camping in the roof tent most of the nights, using sub zero bags with liners.

The plan at this point is to construct isulation panels that will set up againts the inside of the tent to improve heat retention. In addition, I will wire in 12v electric blankets to preheat the tent and bags while driving (switch them on an hour or two before making camp.

The last option is a propane fire duct heater like this one from Adventure Trailers

http://www.adventuretrailers.com/accessories/Pop_Ups/Tent_HeaterLARGE.jpg

I am hoping the combination of above will keep us relatively comfy :camping:

[paulj]

What are you thinking about in terms of tires? Sticking with AT/MT tires suitable for Arizona off-road, or switch to classic winter tires (soft rubber, heavily siped)?

I notice that the RAV4 in the recent Toronto to Yukon blog was using Nokians. A number of Element owners have switch to those, even using them year around.

I wonder if there are other AT tires, besides the BF T/A KOs that qualify for 'severe snow service' (snowflake on mountain symbol)? http://www.tc.gc.ca/roadsafety/tires/wintertires/tirelist.htm

paulj

[Scott Brady]

It is funny you should mention that. Chris and I were just talking about that on Thursday. I am leaning heavily towards an all-terrain tread with heavy siping and towards a slightly smaller size.

I want to make sure that we have the fenderwell clearance for chains, as I intend to bring cable and linked (extreme service) chains.

So at this point I am deciding between the 265/75 and 235/85

[IggyB]

Propane won't flow too well at -40 °C. May wish to consider some other type of heater. Tent components may crack and break from the cold.

Years ago I drove from FtMacmurray to Fort Chipewyan on a winter road, good chunk of it over the frozen lake Athabaska.

Mud tires will be pretty useless. All terrain thread or winter tires with studs would be best. Forget about cable chains. You're either going slow enough to not need them or the conditions are tough enough to need V-bar chains.:eek:

When the temperature dropped that low, we never shut off our work or personal vehicles unless they could be plugged in. They just ran 24/7. Synthetic fluids should go into every nook and cranny. Gas consumption at low temperatures is extreme. You'd have to carry it with you. Any repairs to the vehicle at these temps are impossible.:ylsmoke:

Just have to remember that when you're out in that weather and country, you're really just part of the food chain.:chowtime:

But it will be interesting to read about it and see the pictures as I sit by the fireplace.:campfire:

[Scott Brady]

Gas consumption at low temperatures is extreme.


Would you mind sharing the specifics on this comment? What would I expect to see as a variance from 75 degrees to -40 degrees in fuel consumption.

[IggyB]

I don't have a technical explanation, although I can ask a process engineer at work.

I would expect your mileage to drop by 30 percent or more. And at those temperatures you are not shutting the vehicle off if you stop at the corner store for coffee or at Safeway for groceries.

The mileage in my Frontier gets much worse as temps drop to -20 °C

[Desertdude]

Having grown up on the east coast and moved at an early age to upstate NY an hour from the canadian boarder- I lived through many sub zero winters - block heaters - chains - pre heating the vehicles - frozen batteries - and working outside :(

This will be a great expedition !

I'll be watching this expedition carefully on my powerbook from my grass hut on Kauai :)

[lowenbrau]

Years ago I drove from FtMacmurray to Fort Chipewyan on a winter road, good chunk of it over the frozen lake Athabaska.



I don't think that road opened at all this winter with most days in Jan /Feb being above freezing. Its been a crazy year. Not a typical Alberta winter at all (if there is such a thing).

I'm thinking about putting a heater core and sandwich fan in my roof tent. It should help keep the frost off the bags in the Alberta winter and help dry things up for PNW camping. I run a webasto diesel fired coolant heater to keep the engine warm anyway, might as well take advantage it.

[Scott Brady]

I don't think that road opened at all this winter with most days in Jan /Feb being above freezing. Its been a crazy year. Not a typical Alberta winter at all (if there is such a thing).

I'm thinking about putting a heater core and sandwich fan in my roof tent. It should help keep the frost off the bags in the Alberta winter and help dry things up for PNW camping. I run a webasto diesel fired coolant heater to keep the engine warm anyway, might as well take advantage it.

Several of them did open, but quite late and at low load numbers. That is actually my greatest concern at this point. What time of the year to leave...

Thanks for the great comments!

[paulj]

Alaska highway (and aviation) weather cams:
http://www.dot.state.ak.us/iways/roadweather/index.shtml
http://akweathercams.faa.gov/index.php

[91xlt]

i have used the heaters like you have shown, they work good...i have done alot of winter camping, but......NONE @ -40!!!. i know cold weather does effect propane flow, hell even at resonable temps you get frost build up on propane bottles. what i do is i have a small trailer w/ roof tent and this does help by keeping you off the ground, also i set up a screen tent w/panel inserts around the trailer and run kerosene heaters works magic. and a couple of wool blankets it is awesome, but.....?@-40!!!
GOOD LUCK...SOUNDS AWESOME!!! i don't know how kero acts at these temps, maybe someone here can help you more w/that. but many people have seemed surprised at how well they work and never thought of, just a suggestion to possibly look into. i have used this set up to maybe a couple degrees below 0. LOL...jeff:suning:

[Doin_It]

MPG and Propane in cold Canadian weather question. So I went over to my neighbour and asked him for an answer. To above Q., Being he’s both a Mechanical and Petroleum Eng. who owns a manufacturing co. specializing in building oilfield heating equipment using waste heat from the truck exhaust, hydraulics, and glycols, he should know what he’s talking about. (Side bar - his latest creation is a heating unit using 2 burners on it, each equal to 800 house furnaces, burning 7-800 gallons of diesel per hour, he’s got 4 to build) Anyway, as to propane, it’s a liquid under pressure, expanding to 270 times when the pressure is released, as I understood it, it boils off when you release the pressure, this happens at -44F. Temp affects the pressure; (I know I lost some of it here) just as water boils at high temps so propane expands at temp, if you take it from 150F to 600F it will expand 25%. So by going down in temp. likewise you loose pressure, but the move is the same. We have lots of vehicles and job sites using propane for heat here all winter, no problem till really cold. Then he got into the whole 2.15 percent to 9.60 percent propane vapour to air mixture to cause ignition and I just zoned.

As for the MPG question, his claim is that today with all the air/coolant sensors we don’t see the MPG drop of days gone by. If the thermostat isn’t opening/closing right and marinating heat in the block, the computer is reading that and it will over fuel, hence higher MPG. Fuel doesn’t vaporize as well in the cold, so the computer may run a richer mixture till the engine is warm. Also we idle vehicles here more for the car heaters. Back in the day when I worked rigs, we’d leave the pick ups run all night (not our gas) so they’d be warm in the AM when we left camp. He also got into the whole issue of how many BTU's are in that specific gallon of gas etc. and that it doesn't matter what you do to that particular gallon at that stated BTU, a BTU will only provide so much energy, etc. etc.

That my story, that’s all I saw, and I'm sticking to it.

[VikingVince]

I grew up in rural Minnesota...another sub zero climate where winter temps were frequently -20F and worse...with wind chill, -50 to -70 was not uncommon. Sometimes cars and pickups would just go dead while driving down the road...although that was more the exception than the rule...so many more things can break and fail in extreme cold.

As has been already pointed out, it would be a BIG mistake to ever turn your vehicle off. (unless in a village) I wouldn't do this trip with Optima batteries either...they only have 800 cold cranking amps (CCA) at ZERO degrees. I don't have the formula...but CCA drops preciptously by -50 or more temp/wind chill...and the Optimas won't cut it if starting from dead cold.

I would think twice about stopping to sleep. You have to leave your truck running and if it would stop while you're sleeping (very possible)...well, you're f****d...then you'd be hoping for another vehicle to come along. If there were 2 drivers in each vehicle, you could drive shifts and not stop until you get to villages.

And definitely get studded tires! (and chains)

[paulj]

On one winter camping trip in Wisconsin with a substandard battery (on an early Trooper II), I took the cold battery out of the car, and warmed it up in a pan of warm water. The water had been warmed on a camp stove.

paulj

[Scott Brady]

Thanks for the additional info all! A little danger justs adds to the experience.

Chris and I will both have "bug out bags" with sleeping bags, tents, emergency provisions, etc.

I dont see a reason why the last few nights (at the coldest temps) wouldnt be spent in or very near a village, so that will likely be our plan.

[IggyB]

Once more on the mileage. Engine sucking in -40°C air will use more gasoline cause the air is so dense. The engine sensors have an ambient temperature range at which they perform best. At the limits of those temperatures they have considerably more error built in. Also, some of the industrial applications use a heat exchanger to preheat the air into a compressor or an engine.

Couple of Scepter cans would work well as a backup to an aux. tank:victory:

If you are going to shut off the engine at those temps, engine coolant heater is a must(and a place to plug it into 120 vac):D

[Scott Brady]

Doin-it and IggyB,

Thanks so much for the detailed responses. I intend to do more research as the year unfolds. Look for much more information in late summer :campfire:

[flywgn]

Oh boy, this thread has been good to read while I sit in my 67ºF office and sipping a :coffee: (told you I have a large pot). I think I may look into getting another dish to install at Punta Bufeo (that's Baja California...warm Baja California) so's not to miss a single chapter of this adventure.

Brrrrrrr. I'm getting chilly just reading about it.

Don't forget, though, with all this talk about -40º you won't have to worry about whether it's centigrade or Fahrenheit. :xxrotflma

[calamaridog]

I think the most important question to ask yourself before a trip like this is "will you eat human flesh?":eatchicke

You know, just in case:p

But seriously folks, this sounds like quite an adventure:wavey:

[paulj]

Tonight on History channel, Ice Road Truckers.

[paulj]

Article about the mild Arctic winter that shortened this expedition:

http://www.uiso.org/content/view/622/46/

Inuit See Signs In Arctic Thaw
String of Warm Winters Alarms 'Sentries for the Rest of the World'
By Doug Struck
Washington Post Foreign Service
Wednesday, March 22, 2006; Page A01

[Scott Brady]

Thanks for the article Paul.

It is quite possible that our trek will not be repeatable in another 10-15 years.

We will start doing more detailed planning after I return from Morocco, and this thread will grow much more active.

[gcec]

Visit http://www.landroveradventure.com/to2tuk/?&MMN_position=38:38

They did did the trip in Feb 2005

[Desertdude]

Check out todays weather forecast up in Tuktoyaktuk (http://www.wunderground.com/global/stations/71954.html)

[Scott Brady]

Thanks Stephen. Good info :)

[OutbacKamper]

Scott;
I was just wondering how the planning is going for this trip??

Quote from Garry Wescott/Turtle Expedition (re: Russian expedition):
"At sixty below zero, metal can crystallize and snap, and plastics---like photographic film and the vinyl sides of our Four Wheel pop-up camper---can become as brittle as a potato chip. Tires and fan belts can freeze and crack like glass and a 5-15W Arctic oil turns to heavy jello. Gear oil becomes solid."
http://turtleexpedition.com/adventures/intro.php
From my experience much of this is true even at -40C

I notice that the Turtle IV F350 could not carry all the fuel and spares required on the Russian trip without a trailer. Have you considered taking a trailer to carry all that extra fuel and gear? Several responses have warned about not shutting down the engine in cold weather, but you do have the option of a gas (or diesel) powered Espar/Webasto style coolant heater or generator (to run electric block heater/battery heater/interior heater). Either of these options would probably save enough fuel to justify their additional weight and expense. The possible advantage of the generator is that both vehicles could operate on one generator and, in an emergency, flat batteries could be recharged.

Cheers
Mark

[Scott Brady]

Update:

Logo

http://www.expeditionswest.com/adventures/2007/arctic_ocean_expedition/artic-exp-logo.gif

Tires

Extreme snow rated BFGoodrich AT KO with low glass rubber and 60 durometer tread blocks. 295/75 R16 (34x11.5)

Lights

IPF HID's 2 driving on bumper and 4 spots on roof. Fog lights under investigation.

More updates soon

[seth_js]

Are you going to have to do some more trimming to run the 34? Is there enough offset on those steelies for a 34" to clear without hitting the frame at full lock?

It's gonna be an amazing trip. You kids be careful. :p

[Scott Brady]

http://www.expeditionswest.com/adventures/2007/arctic_ocean_expedition/Tuktoyaktuk.jpg

[Scott Brady]

Are you going to have to do some more trimming to run the 34? Is there enough offset on those steelies for a 34" to clear without hitting the frame at full lock?


No more trimming is expected, though I am going to do some work on the windshield washer area.

I am using a 1.25" SpiderTrax spacer to allow for full turning and chain clearance to the UCA. :smiley_drive:

[DesertRose]

Scott and Chris -

You guys are going to have an unbelievable time. It was an extreme trip for me in July-August - we kayaked the route you're driving. Wow! I can see the beach we landed on (just left of center, where the small round-ish lake is, outside the breakwater). I can't recall which way they bring in the ice road. The people are wonderful - I'm sure you'll be a real attraction - break up the monotony of the long winter days. Be prepared for some fun AND adventure. Maybe you'll hear the story about the guy who shot the polar bear through his front window . . .

[Scotty]

Here is interesting link to a Canadian fellow who drove his VW Jetta TDI to Tuk at the end of the winter:

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=107693&highlight=dempster

There are some great images on the ice road going up the Mackenzie - even has a picture of a Lynx. All in all he he had no real problems.

Scotty

[Robthebrit]

You guys are going to have a lot of fun but be safe. I have done a fair bit of cold driving in far northern europe and here is what I have to add:

Change your brake fluid before you leave if you are not using DOT5 fluid, DOT3 and DOT4 fluids are gycol based and will start to freeze around -40C. If the fluid is old it will of absorbed water and it freezing point will be much higher. Even if you use DOT5 fluid which does not mix with water you can still have problems, with DOT5 you can get pockets of water in the system which easily freeze and can cause serious brake problems.

Also at around -40C is when coolant starts to freeze, Evan's waterless coolant is a little better but not by much. I would recommend leaving the engine running if you are no near a town or village, this has many advantages. Petrol unlike diesel does not really freeze at natural temperatures and will easily burn at -40C, what it will not do is vaporize/atomize as needed by an engine without help. A block heater makes starting easier by enabling the gas to atomize better, once the engine is going it keeps itself warm. The job of a block heater is not to keep the engine operational.

First of all a block heater only warms the coolant in the block, all the engine oil has returned to the sump where it will go very thick. Many big trucks (my mog included) have electric pre oilers which is basically an electric oil pump that is typically used to build oil pressure before cranking, you could use a similar system to keep oil in the block and therefore warm. These pumps take a lot of eletricity which is another thing you are not going to have.

The oil will warm up pretty quick once you start the engine but at first you will be running with high oil pressure and low flow rates due to the thick oil. This could cause pressure releif to open. The high oil pressure and low ambient temperatures can also force oil past gaskets because the metal shrinks in the cold and the gasket goes brittle.

Your batteries will be very weak and could quite easily freeze which would b the end of the battery. In addition the engine will take some serious cranking and you will probably have more load on the batteries than normal due to various heating elements. Don't rely on a small portable generator for electricity, they can be extremely difficult to start in such temperatures and they suck gas. In addition alot of these small engines have plastic parts and I have no idea what happens to them at -40C. Not having mains eletricity pretty much rules out a block heater.

All of the above problems can be solved by leaving the engine running and covering the radiator grille. Leaving the engine running allows you to put the transfer case in neutral and the main box in low gear which will keep the tranny turning and gear oil warm. Gear oil is notoriously for turning into grease when its cold (and not -40 cold).

When you first start driving you need to do a few miles at high RPMs and low gear. This will generatre a lot of heat, give the oil time to wake up and in particular give the diffs time to losen up. You certainly do not want to drive away at 50 mph.

If you do switch the engine off at -40C you run the risk of breaking the belts when you crank in the morning. The belts will go brittle if left at -40C and will easily break. Don't forget modern engines have rubber timing belts as well which is also prone to going brittle.

You have got to keep the engine warm while its running, otherwise the ECU will stay in start mode and cause the engine to run rich consuming lots of fuel.


Rob

[Lost Canadian]

Another thing you may want to consider if it's just the two of you going alone is taking two spare tires. The Dempster is litered with sharp shale and winter makes avoiding bigger pieces impossible to see, the shale will cut through a tire like it was butter. And flat tires (especially in winter) can be a serious (and expensive) incident if your tires are damaged beyond repair. Also having a satellite phone would be highly recommended "just in case." Again because it's just the two of you you may want to consider taking a winch ground anchor (pull-pal type). You won't always have something to tie off too to winch yourself out if you go off the road.

Another thing often over looked is that you will always be chasing the light and long days of nothing but white, white, and more white in every direction can be draining. Getting yourself mentally prepared (I'm sure you will be) for that would also be on my list of things just to stay mindful of.

Oh and lastly don't forget to try some caribou and musk ox, and if you get the chance perhaps some beluga. Have fun and stay safe. This will be an awesome adventure for you two.

[outsidr]

Rob, that was a great summary and I can attest to a similar scenario. While in Wilderness First Responder Training in Pitkin, CO in January my Defender 90 (soft Top) truck was parked for 4 days with nightly lows of -15 to -27 and on the 4th day I went to start it, (after scraping the 4 foot build up off the hood so I could see) and the battery was lethargic almost dead, there was no oil getting to the upper end and I could hear the rings and cylinders clacking, the idle was chaotic, very high then searching for over 2 minutes that felt like an hour. I considered shutting it down several times but did not think the battery would muster the strength to restart. I ran it in drive with the t case in neural and then in low range to spin up the other fluids when I bagan to move. The sounds of the rings starting to seal and seat combined with a screaming power steering pump, and the breakes breaking from the calipers was amazind and fortunately after a few mor eminuites things began to sound normal. The day temps were low 30's so I am sure that is the only reason belts, batt, and hoses survived. The top did suffer cracks and tears as I manipulated it to access the back and I thought that strange but this was my first experience with "Physics scale" cold.

I hope you get everything in order with your trip soon as with the global climate is trending against you; you may well not have the opportunity in the next few years. Although, you could always consider using matt tracks. http://www.mattracks.com/

Good Luck! I have driven as close to that region as you can in September and it is pretty baron. Well worthy of an adventure.

[Scott Brady]

I hope you get everything in order with your trip soon as with the global climate is trending against you; you may well not have the opportunity in the next few years.

Yes, and the main reason for doing it now.

Thank you so much for the feedback everyone!

[TACODOC]

Cool trip! Make sure you prepare for cold injuries when training/studying and when planning your medkit: frostbite, hypothermia, chilblains, snowblindness...

Good UV eye protection and sunblock are a must up there especially if dismounted but, hey, I'm preaching to the choir here, you know all this stuff... You guys will do fine!

Bon Chance!

[Lost Canadian]

I see you are thinking about fog lights Scott. A yellow lens light would be a very good idea if you ask me. Blowing snow can be worse then thick fog, the stronger the light the less you will be able to see. Those HID's will be good when weather is calm, but may be blinding if you hit a storm. I understand your need for lots of light though. My family made it out to Whitehorse after Christmas a few years back, we were visiting family, the days were so short, I think we saw maybe 5 hours of daylight each day, the sun seemed so very far away, almost like we were in a period of perpetual dusk. It's kinda eerie. But cool.

[pskhaat]

Scott, two things I forgot about in my post earlier on cold preparation but the fog light thing made me remember one of them. No, I've not yet driven that far North, but way too often criss-crossed the very North US Midwest taking the wife back to see her parents and/or winter trekking between different ski races for a decade:

A rear (red is Euro, but I like amber) fog lamp for offcoming traffic behind you,
Literally paint on (used if need be) 90wt to your frame and all suspension components. A good coating of heavier oil on these parts will help prevent water/ice buildup. It's an ugly job and worse to clean up, but has helped us a lot in our 80 in the past for our long deep midwestern winter trips.Good call also on the brake fluid from Robthebrit. I have missed quite a few ski races due to the fact our old FJ60 would have it's clutch fluid freeze and I left the truck in gear. I've stated this before as have others, but overnight, keep your tcase in N and in the morn put your tranny in gear to get the tranny fluid moving.

[whistler110]

For more research, you may want to look at winterized military vehicles. I picked up some really good tips from how the winterized Land Rover Wolfs are set up and from talking to people who maintain them. After looking at different heating systems I’m a fan of the Webasto & Eberspacher coolant heaters. The winter Wolfs have coolant lines running through the vehicle for auxiliary heaters including one in the battery compartment. Another trick passed onto me was to seal the hood of the truck using door seal, this with a rad maff will keep the engine bay warm.

[toyrunner95]

you saw that thing on the history channel about john dennison didnt you? i wanted to do the same thing.

[paulj]

There was a book on Dennison and his ice roads. I found it in a public library in the late 1970s.

paulj

[paulj]

There was a book on Dennison and his ice roads. I found it in a public library in the late 1970s (1st edition).

Denison's Ice Road by Edith Iglauer (Paperback - Oct 1998)

paulj

[goodtimes]

Change your brake fluid before you leave if you are not using DOT5 fluid, DOT3 and DOT4 fluids are gycol based and will start to freeze around -40C. If the fluid is old it will of absorbed water and it freezing point will be much higher. Even if you use DOT5 fluid which does not mix with water you can still have problems, with DOT5 you can get pockets of water in the system which easily freeze and can cause serious brake problems.


Rob

Yes, but DOT5 brake fluid has a high amount of entrained (dissolved) air, which is not happy when the ABS solenoids cycle. It can foam up and you don't stop.....damage to the ABS system is very possible.

[Scott Brady]

you saw that thing on the history channel about john dennison didnt you? i wanted to do the same thing.

Nope, no TV ;)

[Desertdude]

His book on Amazon (http://www.amazon.com/Denisons-Ice-Road-Edith-Iglauer/dp/1550170414)

Wikipedia -John Denison (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Denison)

Wikipedia - Ice Road (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_road)

the diesel Gypsy on ice roads (http://www.thedieselgypsy.com/Ice%20Roads-3B-Denison.htm)





::::

[Scott Brady]

Here is the webpage to chronical our adventure. More updates weekly.

Arctic Ocean Expedition Site (http://www.expeditionswest.com/arctic_ocean/)

[flyingwil]

Here is the webpage to chronical our adventure. More updates weekly.

Arctic Ocean Expedition Site (http://www.expeditionswest.com/arctic_ocean/)


Cool, are you going to blog along your way? I am sure that there will be magazine articles so that might hinder the post as you go... for copyright protection.

[Brian894x4]

Here is the webpage to chronical our adventure. More updates weekly.

Arctic Ocean Expedition Site (http://www.expeditionswest.com/arctic_ocean/)

:jump:


Pictures, pictures, pictures. We want lots of pictures, including prep and set up. Looking forward.....:D

[Desertdude]

I am guessing you will not have to bring a Fridge ?

or will you use this space to level out the temps for critical fluids...

[Scott Brady]

We will be doing live posts to expeditions west on this trip with images.

Now that SEMA is behind me, I am really getting excited about prep for this adventure and research.

Chris and I meet on Thursday to review the remaining tasks and required equipment and modifications. "cool" :elkgrin:

[toyrunner95]

have you thought about keeping your water equipment flowing, it could very well freeze...... solid.

[Scott Brady]

we are going to pull it out of the truck for this adventure. Chris will just have to live with me being stinky :smiley_drive:

[bootzilla]

I wish I had enough vacation to tag along - that is a great adventure. I have a friend in Calgary, and he said that it was -13 F yesterday...and it is still November...:yikes:

[toyrunner95]

o and keep your CV joints lubed, ive had those freeze up on me in my old 4runner, watch the boots too, they will freeze as well.

[WJinTRSC]

[QUOTE=expeditionswest]Thanks for the post Paul.

We plan on camping in the roof tent most of the nights, using sub zero bags with liners.

The plan at this point is to construct isulation panels that will set up againts the inside of the tent to improve heat retention. In addition, I will wire in 12v electric blankets to preheat the tent and bags while driving (switch them on an hour or two before making camp.

The last option is a propane fire duct heater like this one from Adventure Trailers

Hey guys. I'm new 'round here, but a trick I've learned for cold weather camping is to fill a Nalgene w/ boiling water and throw it in your bag before you crawl in. Keep it in there while you sleep. It keeps your toes nice and toasty! Any 100% lexan bottle will work, but Nalgenes are the most popular. Good luck on the trip!!

[Robthebrit]

I have posted this before somewhere but I use a good old fashioned hot water bottle, much better that a regular water bottle as they have seals for boiling hot water, you don't ever want them to leak. They are much better than an electric blanket as they do not reqire continual power and are much warmer. I grew up with these in the north of the UK where they are still common to this day as Brits don't like eleectric blankets.

http://www.vermontcountrystore.com/shopping/product/detailmain.jsp?itemID=5524&itemType=PRODUCT&RS=1&keyword=hot+water+bottle&searchid=inceptor

Fill it with boiling water 30 minutes before bed and put it in its cozy and then put it in your bag, leave it in there when you get in, becareful because it will be red hot (hence the need for the cozy). It'll still be warm in the morning and no aux power required, in those temps you do not want to rely on a battery.

Along similar lines, put a thermos full of water in your bag and you can use it to make coffee in the morning without ever getting out of the bag. I do this all the time and its awesome! If you use a hot water bottle then keep them together by puting the thermos in the cosy with the hot water bottle.

Rob

[Scott Brady]

Along similar lines, put a thermos full of water in your bag and you can use it to make coffee in the morning without ever getting out of the bag. I do this all the time and its awesome! Rob

Great idea! Better than having to draw straws for who has to get outside of the bag.

[Desertdude]

After just being in Death Valley over last week the temps dropped to an easy 16-12 degrees - ( which in the big picture is not to cold) it is easy to forget the small stuff like...

no windshield washers
small water bottles frozen
frozen plastic
crispy frozen tent fly
sleep deprivation
butane won't work to well
propane works slower and less efficient
metal parts are dangerous to grab without gloves
video tape does not load without heating up the tape cartridge first

...everything takes longer to do in the cold :coffee:

Its been at least two decades since I lived in the sub zero climate - I remember now why I left that climate :yikes:

[smbisig]

a trick I've learned for cold weather camping is to fill a Nalgene w/ boiling water and throw it in your bag before you crawl in. Keep it in there while you sleep. It keeps your toes nice and toasty! Any 100% lexan bottle will work, but Nalgenes are the most popular. Good luck on the trip!!

i second that trick go on numerous overnight snowshoe trips and this trick works very well.

[Colorado Ron]

I see on the page you have pics with and without the trailer. So are you going without the trailer then?

[Scott Brady]

We are taking the trailer, but have not decided yet on how far north it will accompany us...

Since this trip has not happened yet, the pictures are just for effect :)

I.E.: Mods, stickers, etc. are all subject to change.

[slooowr6]

I have posted this before somewhere but I use a good old fashioned hot water bottle, much better that a regular water bottle as they have seals for boiling hot water, you don't ever want them to leak. They are much better than an electric blanket as they do not reqire continual power and are much warmer. I grew up with these in the north of the UK where they are still common to this day as Brits don't like eleectric blankets.

http://www.vermontcountrystore.com/shopping/product/detailmain.jsp?itemID=5524&itemType=PRODUCT&RS=1&keyword=hot+water+bottle&searchid=inceptor

Fill it with boiling water 30 minutes before bed and put it in its cozy and then put it in your bag, leave it in there when you get in, becareful because it will be red hot (hence the need for the cozy). It'll still be warm in the morning and no aux power required, in those temps you do not want to rely on a battery.

Along similar lines, put a thermos full of water in your bag and you can use it to make coffee in the morning without ever getting out of the bag. I do this all the time and its awesome! If you use a hot water bottle then keep them together by puting the thermos in the cosy with the hot water bottle.

Rob


Wow, we have that in Taiwan but not at $18. The water bag is about $2. I guess the neopren bag cost $16. :smileeek:
Oh, BTW the thing work REALLY well. I should ask my friend bring a couple back from Taiwan.
________
Suzuki GS750S (http://www.cyclechaos.com/wiki/Suzuki_GS750S)

[Robthebrit]

Wow, we have that in Taiwan but not at $18. The water bag is about $2. I guess the neopren bag cost $16. :smileeek:
Oh, BTW the thing work REALLY well. I should ask my friend bring a couple back from Taiwan.

Yeah, I have a couple I got from the UK and they were only a pounds or two each. It must be the cover..

Rob

[bigreen505]

Now don't forget to pack your 12V battery powered heated socks dudes!


I'm not sure if that was meant to be a joke, but it actually is not a bad idea. A set of Hotronic's with the universal footbed to go in any boots or shoes runs about $150 - $250 depending on whether you get the 2.5 or 3.5 battery. Might be worth consideration if you plan to be hiking around much.

[Shurik]

Sound's like a blast! From reading through the posts, it sounds like you've gotten all the advice you might need. We did a trip in Russia from Yakutsk up the Lena River to Tiksi back in 1996. I wish we had known half the stuff posted here! Of course, we did it in a group of 2 Kamaz's, an Ural, and 2 Gaz-66's (http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3017) rather than a Taco.
Good luck, and let me know if I can help at all!

[Colorado Ron]

So Im not sure if this has been asked, but is fuel stations going to be an issue? Cant imagine there are too many 7-11s on the way.

[freetomeander]

Hello, first post here but been reading for a while. A Canadian friend of mine drove up to Tuk a couple years ago, says it was basically a waste of time and money winterizing the truck. Not that big a deal really, you just drive up there,turn around and drive back. Stay over in Tuk if you want. Large trucks do it alot, just like driving across a frozen lake altho its alot colder when you get out to pee! Lota guys do it just to say they drove to the arctic...not really worth it according to him. He wished he spent the $$$ taking his wife on a trip...she left him shortly after.

[Colorado Ron]

Hello, first post here but been reading for a while. A Canadian friend of mine drove up to Tuk a couple years ago, says it was basically a waste of time and money winterizing the truck. Not that big a deal really, you just drive up there,turn around and drive back. Stay over in Tuk if you want. Large trucks do it alot, just like driving across a frozen lake altho its alot colder when you get out to pee! Lota guys do it just to say they drove to the arctic...not really worth it according to him. He wished he spent the $$$ taking his wife on a trip...she left him shortly after.

Hmm, there are a few trips you can say that about. You attitude when on a trip is what greatly predicts its outcome. Maybe he was one of those guys that kinda has a negative attitude(hence the wife leaving him).Please--no disrespect to your friend, just Ive seen 2 guys make the same trip and come back with completly different attitudes.

I say go for it, and keep the right attitude and itll be a trip for the books!:smiley_drive:

[freetomeander]

Oh yeah, no doubt it can be a good trip especially if you haven't been in that kind of environment. The cold, the tundra gets a little old for some Canadians who been around it lot of their life. lot of em head to Baja in the winter.
Nah my friends not negative or anything. Divorce just happens sometimes. He had done alot of offroading in Canada and the trip to Tuk was least faverite of all. Once you hit the Dempster landscape is monotnous, according to him. you have to prepare the truck for arctic temps. He spend lotta money on arctic survival stuff like has been talked about here just in case the truck broke down but then never used it,good thing no doubt.

[jingram]

Ironically I saw you posting about this trip over at 4wdtrips.net even though I hang out more here, lol. Anyway, I did this trip, albeit in the summer about 12 years ago. I was 17 at the time if you can believe that. I went to Alaska to make my fortune on fishing boats, ended up blowing most of my cash travelling around the Far North at the end up the season and eventually ended up with a totalled truck on the Washingon/Canadian border near a little town called Osoyoos in BC.

I did the trip in an 83 toyota long bed 2wd. I went through 2 tires just getting to Inuvik and back. I was on a shoestring budget running absolute junk equipment on a truck that was way overloaded, but the trip was great.

I stopped and caught grayling early on, the tundra has a lot of color to it surprisingly, although my pictures never were able to capture it. Eagle Plains has fuel and food, tire repair etc. I poked around Fort McPherson for a bit and toured their tent and canvas factory. It is a native settlement and was an interesting experience, especially for a wide eyed 17 year old. Getting to Inuvik felt like a real victory for me until I found out that I could get a flight to Tuk for cheap. So, off I went to Tuk for my dip in the arctic ocean. It was a great trip and I am very envious. I would LOVE to do it during the winter season, especially the ice road to Tuk. You may need permits to run that stretch, so check into that now.

The road was made of sharp slate and from my talks with locals is in neverending flux. It will be interesting to see how it is in winter. Misquitos won't be a problem this time a year, so that is good! :elkgrin:

If you want a partner in an Xterra, you let me know and I will start getting it ready for the trip!! Yes, I am dead serious. :smiley_drive:

Jack

[edgear]

Be sure to remember the windshield washer antifreeze!! That was something I never had to consider when I lived in Tucson. But now that I'm up in the cold country, I need to add some of that to my washer fluid reservoir.

[flywgn]

It's also a good idea to inspect the routing of your hoses to the windscreen washer nozzles. Recently, I had the driver's side hose to clog even with non-freezing fluid owing to the fact that the hose was exposed to the wind for about two inches before the nozzle. At the time, the outside temp was around 5ºF and the wind-chill at 60mph was enough to cause the liquid to congeal. I remedied the problem by re-routing the hose and increasing the mix in the fluid with a higher proportion of the non-freezing liquid.

Allen R

[Scott Brady]

Hello, first post here but been reading for a while. A Canadian friend of mine drove up to Tuk a couple years ago, says it was basically a waste of time and money winterizing the truck. Not that big a deal really, you just drive up there,turn around and drive back. Stay over in Tuk if you want. Large trucks do it alot, just like driving across a frozen lake altho its alot colder when you get out to pee! Lota guys do it just to say they drove to the arctic...not really worth it according to him. He wished he spent the $$$ taking his wife on a trip...she left him shortly after.

Hi Freetomeander,

Welcome to the forum and thanks for the post. For me, the appeal is the extreme conditions, not any great driving challenge. The darkness, the cold and the logistics create a very interesting and rewarding challenge in my mind.

I have not travelled to the Arctic Circle or Arctic Ocean, so I might as well make it more interesting by going in Winter :D

[Icewalker]

Hello, first post here but been reading for a while. A Canadian friend of mine drove up to Tuk a couple years ago, says it was basically a waste of time and money winterizing the truck. Not that big a deal really, you just drive up there,turn around and drive back. Stay over in Tuk if you want. Large trucks do it alot, just like driving across a frozen lake altho its alot colder when you get out to pee! Lota guys do it just to say they drove to the arctic...not really worth it according to him. He wished he spent the $$$ taking his wife on a trip...she left him shortly after.

Dunno about that - I drove up to Tuk last year (Feb 05) - thankfully the truck was winterized. Even then I still managed to freeze up the heater core. IMHO the drive was great and well worth doing - especially if you are going to go camping in it and not the easy route and overnight in Inuvik then drive up the ice road, turn around and come back again. The best part is actually taking one of the side "roads" on the way back from Tuk and driving out to the rigs - they're really cool (forgive the pun) about it and will answer questions etc.

JMHO

Jeff

[Ursidae69]

This may have been mentioned already, but I'd not set your e-brake at stops if I were you. Mine froze solid with a thick covering of ice after driving around the snow storms here the past few days and it took me crawling under with a hammer to free the cables from ice the next morning before I could go anywhere. Just a thought.

[Desertdude]

good tip, We never used the E brakes when we lived back east in the sub zero temps - when they would get wet in the day then set - they would freeze right to the drums... I still never use mine

[p1michaud]

Scott,
I've been meaning to post for some time. Here are some tips that you probably already know about already, but worth a mention anyhow.

Winter driving and preparations

Fresh batteries
Will you changing your batteries before the trip? Nothing kills a battery quicker than a real cold snap.

Gas consumption
I’ve been keeping reasonable MPG data for the last two full years and went back to look at the data and trends I have. The temperature here goes from + 30 degrees Celsius to -30 degrees Celsius. I notice a drop in MPG (1 to 2) during the cold months. The biggest factor that increases fuel consumption during the cold months is vehicle warm up because as you know, when the engine is running in the driveway or parking lot and it’s not moving your effective MPG for that time frame is 0!

Synthetic Oils
I’ve switched to full synthetic fluids for engine, tranny, transfer case and diffs. Where I’ve noticed the biggest difference is on extreme cold start ups. The vehicle starts easier because synthetic fluids typically don’t turn to molasses as quickly as regular oils. Don't forget about brake and power steering fluid.

Engine coolant (winter/cold weather mix)
Will you be replacing your engine coolant before the trip


Windshield washer fluid, winter wipers and window scraper
Make sure to bring cold weather windshield washer fluid and change out any remaining windshield washer fluid left in the truck. Get good quality winter wipers you will need them, or you can get really good at driving down the highway and sticking your arm out the window to grab the windshield wiper and lift it off the glass and drop it as it goes by to clear the frozen snow and ice build up from the wipers. Most of us Canadians learn this skill early on in our driving careers! Rather comical to see actually. :D Finally don’t forget your window scraper! You would not believe that I have seen used to scrape ice build up off of vehicle windows (credit cards, books, pocket knives to name a few…).

Sunglasses and Snow glare
I think this has been mentionned previously in this thread, but a good pair of sun glasses are a must.

Parking brake (drums full of snow and water that can freeze)
As Ursidae69 has mentionned already, the E brake on these trucks tends to freeze up especially when you drive though lots of deep snow or water. I've had to put the truck in 4Lo in one occasion to get the truck rolling after driving through some mud and water on my way to a hunting spot then parking over night. The rear E brake was frozen solid and I was way back in the woods. When I got home, I inspected the brakes and nothing was damaged. I just cleaned and lubed everything up to prevent the problem from re-occuring. I think that the problem area is the point where the E brake bracket pivots on the brake backing plate. Water gets in and freezes with the brake on. In my case mentionne above the brake shoes were actually frozen to the drums.

Engine Bay full of snow (-30 to -35 degrees Celsius)
I can recall two occasions where I started my truck after a real bad snow storm. The parking lot for my appartment at the time was near the side of a hill and was very exposed. When I turned the key, the engine made a strange noise then snow was coming out arround the hood! :yikes: I killed the engine and opened the hood. My engine bay was stuffed with fine powdery snow. I cleaned some out and started the truck again with no other problems. It took 3 days for all the snow to melt and clear from the engine bay. The point of this, is to say that these trucks are reliable even in extremely cold and snowy conditions. I have never hesitated going out in a snow storm with this truck. I actually enjoy going out and driving in snow storms.

Gas line anti freeze.
You should also consider using some gas line anti freeze every few fill ups just to prevent frozen gas lines. During winter months, I use some every 5 to 10 fill ups just to be sure and have not had an issue to date.

Hope you find a few of these tips helpful.
Cheers,
P

[Clay]

Just FYI Pro Comp All Terrains are extreme weather rated as well.

Good luck on the trip, I cant wait to read all about it.

[Boston Mangler]

One other thing that i havent seen mentioned yet it GLASS care/repair.

I remember getting a small chip on my windshield and once the weather got cold, it would spider big time. I can imagine the temps may test the window glass as well.

Something to think about.

[Icewalker]

One other thing that i havent seen mentioned yet it GLASS care/repair.

I remember getting a small chip on my windshield and once the weather got cold, it would spider big time. I can imagine the temps may test the window glass as well.

Something to think about.

Good point - another thing to bring along. Emergency windscreen material. I lost a side window while up that way - not due to the cold but because some nasty piece of work decided to smash my side window and steal stuff from the truck while we were in Whitehorse. Thank goodness it was on the way back and I had the emergency screen material - would of been a pretty cold and miserable trip back if I didn't.

Jeff

[texas taco]

just wanting to know are you going to sleep in the eezi awn, and if so are you adding any insulation to it or are you using a heater of some kind. any way happy and safe travels. from Texas.

[mountainpete]

One other thing that i havent seen mentioned yet it GLASS care/repair.

I remember getting a small chip on my windshield and once the weather got cold, it would spider big time. I can imagine the temps may test the window glass as well.

Something to think about.

That's a worthy point to consider. I would suggest bringing along a simple battery operated dremel tool with the smallest drill bit possible (think dental size). Then as soon as you get a chip that starts a crack, drill a hole into the glass just a hair after the end of the crack. Drill just a hair less than halfway throught the glass and then push the crack towards the hole. It will prevent it from spreading across the windshield.

I did a very, very, very short stint doing windshield repair years ago and picked up that tip.

Pete

[Colorado Ron]

Any updates on this trip? Havent heard much lately.

[articulate]

The major update is that I'm going with them:
http://www.markdstephens.com/frontier/arctic_navara.jpg






:p
Just kidding.

[Colorado Ron]

HAHA! I wish I was too. I may just have to make a trip out of it one year. THey must be real busy getting ready, havent heard any updates in quite some time.

[seth_js]

That Frontier is fat.

[pskhaat]

fat

Pretty phat too.

[toyrunner95]

yeah, ive been watching that arctic expedition site, and not a whole lot happeneing, i know its just the 1st of feb but werent there supposed to updates on the truck and what not?

[Scott Brady]

A lot is happening, mostly on the cold weather gear side.

Updates are delayed because of my driving project for Jeep, which finishes this Friday.

[paulj]

Article on driving the Dempster in winter on
rec.outdoors.rv-travel newsgroup
Arctic Adventures: Dragging a trailer to Inuvik in January (long)

[AKTrooper]

Scott,

Check out the Isuzu forum section of this site. I just returned from Teslin YK and spent sonme time around the Ross River via the Canol road. Thought you might be in the area at the same time but didn't hear or see you. Hope all goes well on the road.

Dennis

[Scott Brady]

Chris and I are meeting about remaining action items and testing our Verizon card. Five weeks left

Look for more frequent updates from this point forward...:26_7_2:

[mountainpete]

Chris and I are meeting about remaining action items and testing our Verizon card. Five weeks left

Look for more frequent updates from this point forward...:26_7_2:

Scott, which Verizon card are you using?

When you are up here, you will probably be roaming on the wireless carrier I work for and I might be able to get you some very specific coverage details - along with a few other hints ;)

[CLynn85]

I can't wait to hear more about this trip. The Ice Roads have always been a desire for me that I hope to do before they're closed off from public use.

[BajaTaco]

Article on driving the Dempster in winter on
rec.outdoors.rv-travel newsgroup
Arctic Adventures: Dragging a trailer to Inuvik in January (long)

hmmm - I am interested to read this. I suppose it requires subscription, right? Do you know if it exists in any other format?

Thanks

[BajaTaco]

Scott, which Verizon card are you using?

When you are up here, you will probably be roaming on the wireless carrier I work for and I might be able to get you some very specific coverage details - along with a few other hints ;)

Pete, I just sent you an email. :)

By the way, I want to thank everyone for their comments, questions and support here in this thread. I have been checking in and reading up all along. There has been a lot of great input - thank you.

[paulj]

I read the (usenet) newsgroups through Google, but you can use other servers. No need to subscribe to read the threads.

Here's a link to the lead post of this thread:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.outdoors.rv-travel/msg/fa3af83fcd663edc

In this account, a couple drove a truck full of blasting equipment to Inuvik, and on to a mining camp down river.

Newsgroups are an early version of forums, generally unmoderated, and thus loaded with tangents and junk, but occasionally good stuff.

paulj

[Scott Brady]

I started our new in-progress thread :)

ARCTIC EXPEDITION 2007 (http://expeditionportal.com/forum/showthread.php?p=56261#post56261)

[freetomeander]

A good read for Arctic adventure, although I know the focus here is on vehicle dependent trips:

Last month's National Geographic Adventure has story and pics on Borge Ousland and Mike Horn's expedition to the North Pole - ON FOOT pulling sleds, 2 months of 24 hour darkness. They made it!! Since the "game" among professional adventurers is to have "firsts", they were the first to do it in the months of 24 hour darkness...in the floating ice sections they had to swim through arctic water in special made suits. Now THEY endured extreme conditions!