Four Wheeler mag winch shootout

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Originally Posted by wardrow

I am not an expert here so I'm not trying to sound like a pom-pus ****. Can some of you more knowledgeable recovery experts please teach me. Why is having a slower winch a bad thing? every situation I have had to recover, I though a slow steady pace seamed quite safe. Why is leaving your vehicle running a bad thing? I don't really think an electric which is going to run for to long with out an alternator. I here these stories that with an electric winch you can up-right your self even with the engine dead. I can't even imagine how you do that with just one line and how you would have to have several pulleys and just the right anchor points. I do not discount that it could be done but how? If there is a vid some place I would love to see it.

Again, I am just looking to learn from others.

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Speed:

Most winches advertise no load and load line speed, having a super fast no load line speed is great (I run a WARN 9.5ti and it is insanely fast) to get the rope back on the winch and get rolling again. The loaded line speed is significantly slower on a electric winch but some winches are still much quicker then others. Even though they are quick they are still very steady and I have never had a problem with a winch going too fast during recovery.

We perform recovery for off road races a few times a year and our big one is King of the Hammers every February, speed is very important here because most of the time we are recovering rigs in places that have only one or two paths through a canyon or gully. If they are stuck for too long huge backups are created and people aren't happy.

Another selling point on fast winches is adding blocks, when you need to increase your mechanical advantage you also increase the amount of line that needs to be winched in. With a slow winch you will literally be crawling along when using multiple blocks, you'll want the fast winch here.


Winching with your engine off:

With a good battery you can winch a bit without the truck running. There are those horror stories about the trucks that blow PS pumps and lose hydraulics and then you lose your winch as well.


Electric winches are also generally much cheaper and work well for our applications. When you get into the larger winches that need to operate more frequently (with a 100% duty cycle) the hydraulic winch will win hands down.

-Alex

Speed is a relevant factor.

I nearly always use a pulley block to spread the load and get more cable out. For a given amp draw, a faster winch will get the job done quicker, using less power and generating less heat.

When on a low vis. climb, when you are winching and driving under power, a slow winch is a liability.

That is not to say the winch needs to be too fast - there is always a good balance. You can also slow a winch down as much as you want with pulleys for fine control, but you can't make one faster. . .

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Originally Posted by Master-Pull

Better as in stronger? Sure but also much slower, require the rig to be running, and can be more difficult to install.

-Alex

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Yes to all the above.

Just a comment with respect to pulleys. Often they actually speed up the winching.

Say, for example you require 12000lbs of pull to move your rig in a mudhole and you have a fancy new Warn endurance winch.

Single line speed would be 3.4 ft/min
If the pulley halved the pulling force to 6000lbs the speed would be 7.7 ft/min /2 = 3.85 ft/min

Further advantage to using the pulley is that you'll be on a lower wrap where the winch has more power and you'll have less rope on the drum reducing the chances if it piling up.

Finally, if you are using your rig to recover another, if you use the pulley on the stuck truck and then return the hook to a tree or another vehicle, you can reduce the amount of braking force required (often in muddy conditions) by roughly half and reduce the chances of the rescue rig being dragged into a difficult situation.

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Originally Posted by bfdiesel

Yes to all the above.

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Except for the slow part.

If you have a proper pump you can pull full rated loads at speeds way higher than electric.

My Superwinch H8P with 15 gal/min pump will pull at 40 ft/min full or no load.

The Warn Endurance can't quite go that fast unloaded and is down to 3.4 ft/sec at full load.

Milemarker hydraulic winches using factory power steering pumps are indeed quite slow and they have helped propagate the myth that all hydraulic winches are.

I tested my winch a while back

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fouTldH_3jg

I'll compare it to there list:

The Testing
Each unit would be scored on the following ten categories:
1. Packaging (Was unit adequately protected for shipping?) Um, came with the truck...
2. Exterior labeling (Are visual warnings easy to comprehend?) If you can speak German, yes
3. Instructions (Content, clarity, pictures, and detail) Again, German, but very detailed ;)
4. Power-to-weight ratio (Actual stall weight vs. weight as tested) Oh it has more than enough power, and weigh's a freaking ton
5. Ease of use (Clutch engagement, plug quality, remote control feel and function) Hook to tree, apply 4 wheel park brake, pull down tree
6. Noise during operation (decibel level @ no load) Can't hear it over the Unimog :)
7. Submersion (How does water effect operation?) Operates completely immersed
8. Power wire quality (Strand count, size, coloring, insulation) 1/2" steel
9. Speed and efficiency (How fast and how far?) Hydraulic, fast enough to be effective, slow enough not to be dangerous
10. Stall test (Where do they stop pulling?) It didn't, Unimog 1, Tree 0

Disclaimer, Yes, its hydraulic, and this was done in humor, and no tree's were harmed in the filming..wait...damn...Attachment 68813

Sadly BOTH of the winch test articles mentioned here are poor

I remember the OJ article well as I felt it let down the standard of the mag. Nice pictures though

Mags tend to fail on this subject - I should know, I've written or been involved in 6 'what's the best winch' tests. They are best avoided and the matter dealt with individually with no comparisons, even when the professionals are involved

It's a hugely emotive subject as well; like Jeep V's Land Rover or BFG versus Cooper; so whatever you say will be denied, questioned and generally disbelieved.

I actually know who makes the best recreational winch (it's hydraulic) and I know who makes the most reliable electric recreational winch (it's Chinese). I also know who makes the best synthetic rope... I found out through many years of testing** the whole market not just a selection, in many climates, in many countries on many vehicles. I'm not going to give names mind! 2 reasons; a). someone who thinks better will argue* and b). some new product will have come out last week that may shed a different light on the whole damn thing.

* usually because he/she has a different winch/rope to the correct answer and it's always worked well and never let them down

** sponsored by various very big companies with lots of money and power

Thank you

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Originally Posted by Nonimouse

Sadly BOTH of the winch test articles mentioned here are poor

I remember the OJ article well as I felt it let down the standard of the mag. Nice pictures though

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Unfortunately, 'poor' is a poor descriptor. Please advise the specific area of deficiency in the OJ review.

Thank you.

I've always been taught in the professional world that it's only appropriate to criticize when one is also prepared to offer a better suggestion and willing to help implement it. So with respect to testing and judgments about what's best in the way of winch evaluations or products, my advice and sincere request is to play fair and help out with information, or sit back and watch.

Kind regards,

Don

On the winch speed thing, I became aware of this back when Slickrock and Tellico was still open. The rigs with fast winches (like the 8274) could zip up the rock face and yes, full pulls were common (as in, all your line was pulled out and you rode it all the way in).

Vehicles equipped with the faster winches could easily make it up, no problem. The slower winches...no so much. It seems like the less time your winch is running, the better. The slower winches would take FOREVER and of course the user wouldn't let the little guy cool off (because have been waiting for 3 hours and are yelling at you to do something other than be in the way). Some of the winches that didn't receive proper maintenance smoked out. So now you are in a winch-only situation...with no winch. BTW you are also blocking the trail with 50 rigs behind you yelling at you and will probably just crawl over your vehicle.

This is not ideal.

These tests provide some information, not the end-all in everything but hey, now I now not to run some of these under water or be careful when pulling out a F650 dump truck.

I think the ultimate test would be to give the winch to a complete idiot. And I'm not talking ignorant, I mean someone who is known as the village idiot. Yes, THAT GUY who the cops know on a first name basis. Then see how long it takes for him to kill it. That could be the ultimate test.

Want to test a winch? Do that. Fortunately I am not the village idiot, so I cannot provide you with this test :elkgrin: