Battery set up question

wingysataday

Adventurer
I am currently having a really nice custom trailer built for off road. It is basically an open utility trailer. I want to run a single deep cycle battery set up for on board power. Not running a fridge or anything big. Maybe a cell phone charger or some lights. My wife may want to run a 12v hair dryer.

Ok so here is what I want to do. I want to mount the battery in a sealed type(possibly a tongue box) box and have it be able to charge from the 7 pin connector from the truck and also from a small solar charger when not in use and on the trail. I have a 400 watt inverter at home w/600watt peak. I also want to have some cigarette outlets. Anyone have a schematic or parts list? I'm not sure what all that I need to make this work!

Blessings.
__________________
 

Martyn

Supporting Sponsor, Overland Certified OC0018
Here is a generic set up for you. How many watts is the 12 volt hair dryer? Most of the 12 volt outlets are rated for 30amps, if the drawer is higher than that you will have to either have a higher grade outlet with thicker gauge wire, or go direct to the battery.
 

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McZippie

Walmart Adventure Camper
The 10 gauge wire won't work from the 7 pin connector.
10 gauge is way to small of a wire to charge up a deep cycle battery.
In fact, it will more than likely discharge the deep cycle while driving if any draw is on in the trailer (i.e. Fridge).
Use battery cable size wire, running directly from your engine starting battery to the trailer deep cycle.

Also a 30 amp 12 volt hair dryer is pretty much useless. It'll blow a little slightly warmed air. 30 amps at 12 volts is only 360 watts.
Most in house hair dryers are 1500 watts.
 
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wingysataday

Adventurer
The 10 gauge wire won't work from the 7 pin connector.
10 gauge is way to small of a wire to charge up a deep cycle battery.
In fact, it will more than likely discharge the deep cycle will driving.
Use battery cable size wire, running directly from your engine starting battery to the trailer deep cycle.

Also a 30 amp 12 volt hair dryer is pretty much useless. It'll blow a little slightly warmed air. 30 amps at 12 volts is only 360 watts.
Most in house hair dryers are 1500 watts.

I have a 24 foot travel trailer that has 2 deep cycle batteries in it that are charged by my 7 pin plug and it is about a 14 gauge wire doing it. So how would a 10 gauge wire not do the trick?
 

Paladin

Banned
10 gauge is fine for the battery supply, in fact, it's preferred over a big fat wire. Unfortunately this is another example of ExpoSexual creeping in. You have it right wingysataday, batteries in trailers has been done for a LONG time by the RV crowd, and 10ga is what they use. All the sudden Expo comes along and think you need 4ga or bigger.

A 20-30 feet of 10ga wire acts as a natural "choke" to reduce amperage to a level the trailer battery will be happy with. You're not supposed to charge batteries at 50-100A by connecting it direct to another charged battery with fat wire. It also keeps the amperage to a level that won't burn out the 7 pin connector.

I'd only add to Martin's diagram is to make sure the 7 pin power supply to the trailer battery is fused at the truck battery side as well. You need a fuse on both sides of that charge wire because both sides are connected to a battery. Probably obvious, but just in case...
 

McZippie

Walmart Adventure Camper
I have a 24 foot travel trailer that has 2 deep cycle batteries in it that are charged by my 7 pin plug and it is about a 14 gauge wire doing it. So how would a 10 gauge wire not do the trick?

Are you saying that your 7pin connection with a 14 gauge wire is the only source used to charge two deep cycle trailer batteries? In other words, you don't have a shore power/generator powering a converter/charger?
 

McZippie

Walmart Adventure Camper
10 gauge is fine for the battery supply, in fact, it's preferred over a big fat wire. Unfortunately this is another example of ExpoSexual creeping in. You have it right wingysataday, batteries in trailers has been done for a LONG time by the RV crowd, and 10ga is what they use. All the sudden Expo comes along and think you need 4ga or bigger.

A 20-30 feet of 10ga wire acts as a natural "choke" to reduce amperage to a level the trailer battery will be happy with. You're not supposed to charge batteries at 50-100A by connecting it direct to another charged battery with fat wire. It also keeps the amperage to a level that won't burn out the 7 pin connector.

I'd only add to Martin's diagram is to make sure the 7 pin power supply to the trailer battery is fused at the truck battery side as well. You need a fuse on both sides of that charge wire because both sides are connected to a battery. Probably obvious, but just in case...

The 7 pin small gauge wire set-up is OK if starting out with the Trailer Batteries already charged and there is little or no load on them while traveling.

If tow vehicle alternator charging is the only source for recharging depleted Trailer batteries, then a larger gauge wire is required. ...and that comes from decades of RV based practical knowledge.
 

DrMoab

Explorer
Are you saying that your 7pin connection with a 14 gauge wire is the only source used to charge two deep cycle trailer batteries? In other words, you don't have a shore power/generator powering a converter/charger?

This is how mine is set up. Factory 14 ga wire coming off the Jeep into a 7 pin plug and a 12 ga wire on the trailer leading to the battery. I have no shore power hooked up and I have never...not once EVER experienced a single problem. Yes it won't charge it up in five min but traveling down the road, if I leave one camp spot and go to the next one, my battery is usually fully charged.
 

dwh

Tail-End Charlie
A 20-30 feet of 10ga wire acts as a natural "choke" to reduce amperage to a level the trailer battery will be happy with.

Well...that's not exactly correct. A smaller wire does not reduce amperage, it reduces voltage. However, supplying the battery with a lower voltage does cause less amps to flow toward the battery, which is why a smaller wire appears to limit amperage.

But it doesn't. The fuse is what limits the amperage.

It's actually an anomalous condition due to the battery. For a normal load - for instance a 1500w heater - lowering the voltage increases the amperage.


You're not supposed to charge batteries at 50-100A by connecting it direct to another charged battery with fat wire.

Two problems with that statement:

First, how much amperage the battery can absorb depends on the battery. Most AGM batteries can handle more amps than any normal charging system can throw at them. Spiral-wound AGMs, like the Optima Yellowtops, can handle insane amounts of charge amperage as long as you don't overheat them:

"Alternator:

13.65 to 15.0 volts, no amperage limit.

Battery Charger:

13.8 to 15.0 volts, 10 amps maximum, 6-12 hours approximate.

Cyclic Applications:

14.7 volts, no current limit as long as battery temperature remains below 125°F (51.7°C). When current falls below 1 amp, finish with 3 amp constant current for 1 hour.

Rapid Recharge:

Maximum voltage 15.6 volts (regulated), no current limit as long as battery temperature remains below 125°F (51.7°C). Charge until current drops below 1 amp."

http://www.optimabatteries.com/product_support/charging.php


Second, a bigger wire, in and of itself, will not increase the amperage that flows to the depleted battery; that is a function of how depleted the battery is, and how much voltage is present to charge it.

If the depleted battery's resistance only allows it to absorb 30a with a supply voltage of say 13.6v, then it won't absorb more just from having a bigger wire. To make it absorb more amps, you have to supply a higher voltage.

What the bigger wire can do (especially over a long run), is allow a higher supply voltage at the battery, which (depending on the battery's resistance) can allow more amps to flow.



===============================



The key to battery charging is voltage. To charge a battery you have to feed it a voltage that is higher than "whatever the battery is at right now", otherwise current doesn't flow toward the battery. The supply (charging) has to push hard enough to overcome the resistance of the battery. The bigger the difference, the harder the push and the more current (amps) flow (up to a point).

Let's say our truck's alternator is putting out full voltage - the voltage regulator is holding the alternator to an output of say 14.6v. We use a small wire back to the trailer battery. That wire reduces the voltage, because it's small. How much it reduces the voltage is a function of how much load is on it - the greater the load, the more the voltage drop.

Now, depending on how depleted the battery is, the internal resistance is some number. When the battery is very depleted, the number will be high (high resistance), and when it's pretty near full that number will also be high.

So how many amps can possibly flow into the battery depends on:

What is the resistance of the battery at this moment?
How much excess voltage is available to overcome that resistance?
How much will that voltage drop under X load with this size wire?

If the battery is at 12.6v, and the available voltage to charge it is only 13.6v under load, then that's it - only a certain number of amps will flow. Not because the wire limits the amperage, but because the wire limits the voltage. The BATTERY limits the amperage because its internal resistance will only allow X amps of current to flow if the supply voltage is Y volts.


A constant current type charger will crank the voltage up to whatever it has to be in order to get however many amps to flow. If it's a 30a constant current charger, then it will just keep pushing up the supply voltage until 30a is flowing toward the battery.

A constant voltage type charger will hold the voltage at some point, and let the battery absorb however many amps. As the battery's resistance goes down, the amps go up, until the the battery starts getting full and then the amps go down again.

An alternator/voltage regulator setup is a constant voltage charging system.


Okay, great. So now we're using some wire...say #10...to charge our battery and due to the voltage drop, no more than 30a ever flows through the wire (actually, it's probably more like 5a or less), so we're also not blowing the 30a fuse that protects that #10 wire.

Looks good. So what's the problem?

Well, there are two...

The first problem is if the size (and length) of the wire causes a voltage drop under load. If the voltage at the battery is under say 13v - that is going to guarantee that the battery is never going to be fully charged.

The second problem is that by limiting the voltage, we are also limiting the potential amperage and depending on the battery that might not be a smart thing to do. If we've got AGMs in our trailer, then what we really want is to feed those bad boys the max amps our charging system can supply to get them charged up ASAP.

To do that, we need to increase the voltage available at the battery.

To do that, we need wire which doesn't reduce the voltage.

Hence the need for fat wire.



So can we use small wire and more or less trickle charge the battery? Sure can! Voltage drop depends on load, so as the battery voltage rises, the amperage flow (the load) decreases, and the as the load decreases, so does the voltage drop.

So now as the battery voltage rises, maybe instead of 13v at the battery under a 10a charge load, the battery is seeing 13.5v under 1a of charge load. Sweet! So our battery will eventually reach 13.5v! It might take a couple of days, and won't actually be totally charged, but what the hell, better than nuthin'.


So what if we shave some life off our battery by constantly deficit charging to a "less than full" voltage:

http://www.rollsbattery.com/content...d65c08&phpMyAdmin=3jSJ-jdC5E7b53DHgV8TGvpSCF6

http://www.cat.com/cda/layout?m=37407&x=7&f=320846

http://www.hawkeraplus.com/faq.htm



Voltage is the important thing. If a #10 wire will get your battery to it's fully charged voltage (14.7v for the Yellowtop, 14.8v for most Trojan flooded, 14.4v for most AGMs) in a reasonable amount of time, then go for it. If it drops the voltage and never does get your battery to the fully charged voltage, then it doesn't matter what size wire you use - your battery isn't going to be full anyway.



(For the record, I beat the crap out of my aux battery. I plan on it being abused. Which is why I buy a cheap aux battery and replace it every couple of years.

Also, just because something was done that way yesterday, doesn't mean it's valid today. I went and looked at a '72 Winnebago that was being parted out. I noticed it had the converter/charger still in it. I busted out the flashlight, got down on my knees and wiped the dirt off the label and what did I see? 12.6v. Meh. My antique Schumacher battery charger puts out 12.8v and that's not enough to fully charge a modern battery, why would I want to go even lower? Maybe 12.6v was good enough for batteries in the 70's - it sure won't cut it nowadays.)
 
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Martyn

Supporting Sponsor, Overland Certified OC0018
The reason I suggested 10 gauge wire on the trailer side is that it is typical for the vehicle to have 10 gauge wire running to the 7 pin socket. Maybe I should have just said to match the trailer side wire gauge to the vehicle side wire gauge.

The only issue we have seen running lighter gauge wire is that if the trailer has been sitting for a while and the battery has a low charge the 10 gauge may not bring the battery up to full charge during the time it's being towed. The battery is then discharged again in camp by using lights, fridges, dare I say hair dryers etc. Then the battery in the trailer isn't full charged by the tow vehicle on the trip home. The trailer sits when not in use and the battery discharges and so the cycle goes on.

The result is a shorter life for the battery due to sulphur build up on the lead plates. When the trailer and battery are being used like this we recommend a smart battery charger be installed and plugged in when the trailer is not in use.

I don't see anything wrong with running 4 gauge wire to the back of the vehicle, installing an Anderson connector and then running the wire to the battery in the trailer. It provides for fast charging to the trailer battery and can be done safely with the installation of a resettable breaker.
 

Vince1

Adventurer
I used the Batteryminder products to control the solar part and combat sulfur buildup. Haven't had any problems yet, but I haven't had it for very long.
 

Paladin

Banned
Well...that's not exactly correct.

<snip>

I understand all that, I just kept things simple for the sake of simplicity.

That wire reduces the voltage, because it's small. How much it reduces the voltage is a function of how much load is on it - the greater the load, the more the voltage drop.

In a nutshell, this is what I was stating. McZippie stated for charging of a "Deep Cycle Battery", not necessarily an advanced AGM. I think it's better to be more cautious here.

For reference, 20 feet of 10ga wire has a resistance of 0.02 Ohm. That would lead to a voltage drop of 0.02V at 1 Amp, 0.2V at 10 Amps, and 2V at 100Amps

20 feet of 4ga wire has a resistance of 0.005 Ohm. That gives a voltage drop of 0.005V at 1 Amp, 0.05V at 10 Amps, and 0.5V at 100 Amps.

Just to put a scale on things. I contend that a 10ga wire will slow the charging of the trailer battery to a comfortable range of 10-20Amps with a voltage drop of 0.2-0.4V, as the battery reaches full charge and the amperage drops to 1A, the voltage drop will move to 0.02V. That doesn't amount to a any meaningful reduction in charge of the battery. Assuming the alternator is putting out 13.5-14V, the battery would be seeing 13.1-13.6V at 20Amps. More than enough to fully charge a normal battery. Again, as the battery reaches full charge, amperage drops, voltage drop goes down, and the battery will see the full 13.5-14V.

The risk here, in hooking up the trailer battery with 4ga, is what happens if the main battery is very low. Even at 100Amps charge rate, the voltage drop is only 0.5V. The 7 pin connector can't handle 100A, and it won't be good for a flooded lead acid battery.

If you have a modern AGM, and are using an Anderson connector... have at it I guess. But for sure do not hook up 4ga wire to the 7 pin trailer connector. I'm not even sure how you could do that anyway.

I don't think we disagree... I'm just being more cautious with the advice, and how fast I want to charge my battery, and how much complexity I want.
 

SWITAWI

Doesn't Get Out Enough
...ExpoSexual...

I am constantly learning from everyone here and I really appreciate the maturity of members here versus other forums... and that is the absolute funniest thing I've read in a long time! Thank you.

And thanks to everyone else for discussing this matter. Now I'm comfortably sure I don't necessarily need to wire my trailer power like I wire the capacitors and amplifiers for my car stereos... Except for the circuit breaker part.

:rockon:
 

wingysataday

Adventurer
My truck came from the factory with a 7pin and already has the power from the battery to the back of the truck in place. I appreciate the very thorough explanation.
Any suggestions on parts? I do not need state of the art equipment here just solid working stuff. The solar part is really just an add on. I don't know if it is even worth the hassle. I can just run an extension cord to the trailer when not in use to a battery tender. I was just thinking a solar panel would be cool to help give a maintenance juice to the battery while camping?
 

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