Why you NEED a cabover truck

DzlToy

Explorer
I recently had a conversation with a mate of mine who was interested in buying a “new to him” SUV for daily driver, hauling kids, mountain biking, camping and road trips, going to the home store, etc. He was looking at trucks and SUV's that were 2-3 years old, so as not to take that huge hit on depreciation but wasn't really coming up with much. The “American” SUVs are generally garbage (debate reserved for another thread) but they are cheap from a price standpoint. One could alternatively purchase something like a 5-6 year old Toyota Landcruiser and while it may command a premium over a five year old Chevy Tahoe or Chrysler Minivan, it is justifiable in my opinion. He was not interested.

The conversation then devolved into all the cool “vehicles” that we dont get here in the states. Everything from a 400 HP Mitsubishi Evolution or a 75 MPG diesel SMART Car, which can be bought right off the showroom floor in many European countries to more mundane purchases like D4D Hilux, Isuzu NPS, solid axle diesel Landcruisers, Land Rover Defenders and so on and so on. We both have our reasoning why this is the case, but that is also a topic for another thread as well.

I have long been a fan of cabover import trucks like NPR and FG, but there are downsides to them as well. Firstly, they are almost exclusively used for “work trucks” like landscaping and moving, city delivery, etc. No one goes to a Fuso dealer and buys an FE Crew Cab to replace their Chevy Suburban, at least no one that I know.

Then I thought to myself, why not? We will never likely see a new Defender 110 TD5, nor an NPS, nor a Crew Cab FG with a real transfer case and lockers. The times are changing slowly with the alleged introduction of diesels in ½ ton domestic pickups starting next year. Sadly, these will be saddled with emissions crap that do nothing more than cut emission as the expense of fuel economy, causing one to burn more diesel for a given amount of miles. They arent built worth a damn and are covered with petroleum based plastic and every electronic gadget and nanny known to man. An expo worthy rig, most are not.

So, an on paper (bar napkin) solution was quickly devised and after several minutes of R&D time at the bar, we had it all figured out. Pick your “most desirable, coolest, ROTW truck for the end all be all, do a little of everything” duty.

HDJ-78, Defender 110 TD5, Mercedes G-Wagen (diesel, non luxo-barge edition), diesel Prado, ???? (silently insert your own favourite here), but our list was pretty clear and concise, if nothing else from a principal design standpoint. No particular order and I'm sure there are plenty more choices.

So, can a crew cab, 4WD cabover fill all of these requirements as well or better than the best of the pack of 30 years of “common” SUVs and trucks? I believe they can and with some work, be a segment leader. Now you may say, “I can swap a diesel into my FJ-60” or “ECR does a 300 tdi conversion on NAS 110” or “I can build my Tahoe in to the greatest expedition vehicle ever” and you would certainly be correct on all accounts, well maybe not the Tahoe. With enough time and money and resources, one can do just about anything imaginable, but that is not the point here. Even those trucks are limited.

The point is that, for the most part, people don't want “practical”. They dont want a G-Wagen with paper thin door cards and a rubber mat over a steel painted floor. They dont want manual roll up windows, they dont want a choice of three exterior colours, they dont want a loud heavy diesel that will go 400,000 miles without majour service work and run on anything from veggie to kerosene to transmission oil. Even in the off road and expedition worlds, those traits are not desirable by most.

The Good, the Bad and the rest of the story:
If I were able to purchase or import something like a relatively new Defender 110 or diesel Lancruiser, the price would not exactly be budget friendly. These, along with many luxury SUVs currently for sale here, are pricey. So, what could one build to create the ultimate TUV (Travel & Utility Vehicle) for the price of a shiny new luxo pickup or SUV? (50-60 grand USD)

DIESEL: “Most” cabover trucks in the US and the rest of the world come with commercial grade diesels already in them. Yes you can get a Vortec motor in an NPR if you want a gasser but they aren't that common. These diesels will run forever when properly maintained and there are commercial truck dealers and service shops in almost every city. So, not having diesel powerplant options is checked off the list. Sorry Toyota....

QUALITY: “Many” modern cars are not built the way they used to be, while some have improved over the years. Toyotas are some of the best, but I believe the 80's and 90's trucks and SUV's are better than the current crop. While this is another debate for another thread and may apply to the import cabovers as well, it is appropriate to say, “small import cabovers like FG and NPR are generally very well built.”

SPACE: If you have never been in a crew cab NPR or FE Fuso, they are CAVERNOUS, much larger than a crew cab pickup or large SUV. Yes they are boxy and may lack the styling of a Porsche Cayenne, but they are appealing in their own right. We are going for ultimate practicality, usability and function here, not to be first in line at the mall valet parking line. Sorry Porsche...

In Oz, there are nifty little beds called “tray backs” or “ute backs”, something else we don't commonly see in the states. A crew cab NPR or FG with a tray back could easily fill the role of everything that ¾ ton or 1 ton domestic pickup would do and then some. Making that flat bed easily removable, will allow you to swap a box similar to this, offering plenty of room for all things out of doors. This body allows "outdoor living" and is not for parking in a campsite or RV park and going inside to watch TV.

Isuszu_KUVlcf1.jpg


A Crew Cab NPR will seat 6-7 people and still offer plenty of room in the box for everyone's gear, the ability to tow a trailer and will drive as well as an SUV on the road with only minor suspension and cabin modifications (springs and shocks set for your weight and driving style and better seats.) If you need to carry more than four kids, you may want to see your doctor about having a bit of surgery.

DRIVELINE: Cabovers do not enjoy the aftermarket options that a domestic pickup or SUV might have. This means choices for wheels, lockers, gears, suspension kits, etc., are extremely limited here. However, with a bit of creativity and some time, all of that can easily be resolved. To start, you can go a LOT of places in 2WD with a locker or limited slip diff. This is not a truck for rock crawling. It is the size of a 2500 Suburban, with more room. An axle swap from a one ton pickup truck will open the world of gears, wheels and lockers and can be had for $400 - $800 each plus installation.

If you want 4WD, an AAM or Dana axle can be installed with leaf springs by any competent fabricator. Have some new driveshafts made and you are set. Converting a 2WD truck into 4WD is not for the average garage mechanic but it's not that difficult for someone who knows fabrication and understands basic vehicle design. Add in an Atlas or Lo-Max 205 transfer case and you have a 4WD NPR Doka.

ENGINE: The small diesels found in cabover trucks do not compete with Duramax 6.6L, Cummins 6.7L or Ford 6.7L for HP and torque. The question is do you “need” 400HP and 800 TQ to take your family and gear down the road to your favourite camp spot and relax a few days? Isuzu makes great diesel engines as does MFTB. If a bit more power is desired and you have the 5.2L Isuzu motor, a simple programmer will provide 250 HP and 560 foot pounds of torque. That should do nicely.

RIDE & COMFORT: One area that is lacking in a “work truck” application and again something we dont see in the states, are comfort features or “mod cons”. You dont get heated leather seats and touch screen navigation in the dash when you buy an NPR here. However, these features are simple to add. I recently found a complete set of front and rear seats (heated and cooled) from a wrecked Dodge 2500 for $2,400 and that included the brackets, center consoles and five seats. Of course, some fab work will be needed to fit them but they will be heaps more comfortable than the OEM product. Bob's you're uncle and you are the envy of every landscaping company for miles around.

Additional features like audio upgrades, window tint, rear AC, sound deadening material, etc., are all simple and non vehicle specific for the most part. You could even have a jack knife sofa in the rear if desired. Try that in your Chevy pickup. ;-)

With two body options about 10 feet long each, this truck will confidently fulfill almost every duty you could ask of it and do so with aplomb. (A mountain carving sports car it is not). So far, we have come up with the following uses by interchanging the two bodies. A “dry van” could also be added if needed.

Family travel vehicle – crew cab offers tons of room, gear storage in RV box with food/supplies. Stop and have a picnic lunch, fast food will kill you.

Daily Driver – tons of room inside, RV body could stay on for groceries and errands. Put ice cream in
the fridge for the drive home so it does not melt ;-) Large fuel tanks, easy to drive.

Farm/Work: – flat bed holds GN ball, haul firewood, take stake-sides, move tall items, gives hay rides to the kids.

Dry Van – Moving truck, motorcycle/ATV hauler, mobile garage or workshop, bunk house/tree fort, moving truck ;-)

RV Box – Sleeping for 2 adults, add tents and canopies for additional space. All items are secure and in locking weatherproof storage compartments. Will go anywhere a large SUV will go.

People Hauler – family vacations, mtn bike/hike day trips, camping with friends, hauls six in comfort, seven if everyone is skinny.

Stealth Camper – pull over anywhere climb in the back and “camp” does not stand out in the crowd.

Expedition/Extended Travel – Robust engine and chassis, no worries taking it on 10,000 mile trips. A modern SUV or truck should be able to do this, but these are not as good or flexible IMO.

I could go on and on about design and features and flexibility but I am 100% convinced that withsome planning and engineering, there is almost nothing these trucks can't do. That said, I have yet to convince my still skeptical buddy that this is the truck for him. So, he will be a sheeple and buy an SUV. I, on the other hand, will continue to dream about solid axle Landcruisers, VW Amarok's and D4D Hilux pickups until, that is, I can build my do it all cabover truck.

Cheers,

Dzl
 
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Rebelord

Semper Fi
I like your thinking outside of the normal box.
Here's something near 100% of what you want. Just a matter of trying to get it in a crew cab config or changing the cabs. Link: FG4x4
 

DzlToy

Explorer
with a dog turd of a motor, no transfer case, emissions crap, no crew cab or lockers in FG and 45 grand?? No thanks...

If I were going to do a cab swap, it certainly would not be on a brand new 2014 model when I can get a good running crew cab NPR for less than half that amount. Hell, I can buy a good condition crew cab for $3,000 and swap it onto a high mileage chassis and have less than $10K in the whole thing. If you read the original post, you would quickly see that a standard cab FG is not even on the radar of possibilities. The comparison was "best of the wagons" like HDJ-78 and G-Wagen to American SUV/Pickup to Cabover and can one meet every goal. Only the cabover can do that.
 

proper4wd

Expedition Leader
The reality of doing everything you talked about for $50-$60k isn't likely. Here's why.

You are talking about adding $15k (or more) of parts alone to a cabover truck. But you wouldn't want to start with a clapped out $20k Fuso delivery truck. So you are looking at spending $40k+ for a decent 2wd fuso or NPR.

We are already at $55k. Chances are, somebody who can afford to spend $55k on this project in parts alone is not going to have the time to do the work themselves (because their time is worth much more at work).

So you add labor to this project and you are probably pushing $80k.

Somebody who could afford to spend $80k on building a 2wd NPR into a pickup truck is just going to go buy a new loaded up Dodge or Ford for $65k with a full warranty and finance it at 1.9%. Saving $15k and the headaches of a one-off build.

It is a fun bench racing topic and if you have the resources to build one yourself I would love to see it. But as soon as you look at the economics of it, its pretty easy to see why it doesnt happen.
 

kerry

Expedition Leader
Women make a substantial portion of the purchase decisions on vehicles like these. You need to run your reasoning by the Cosmopolitan website to see how it flies there. :)
 

DzlToy

Explorer
It is very easy to do with some planning and no, I would not pay a shop to do the work IF I were going down this road. Not sure where you get 15k in parts unless you are buying new Dynatrac axles and a new Atlas four speed.

http://www.truckpaper.com/listingsdetail/detail.aspx?OHID=4742213 - Crew Cab NPR with 16' foot box and 120k miles for $24,000 in good condition.

Sell the 16 foot box for $1000 (23,000)
Sell factory rear axle for $500 ($22,500)
Sell factory seats for $250 ($22,250)
Sell factory wheels and tires ($250) ($22,000)

Just as an Example, found these on CL in two minutes:

8 lug DANA 80 REAREND DRUM BRAKE...$600
8 lug DANA 60 FRONT AXLE ASSEMBLY...$400
241 DHD TRANSFER CASE...$300

so, for less than $1500, you have a 4WD driveline. Yes it will take some fab work to get it all in, but its not expensive or rocket surgery. Call Deaver or Alcan for leaf springs, call Bilstein for shocks, Firestone air bags from semi truck wrecking yard, etc. Order some steel for brackets, mounts and tabs, fire up the plasma table and welder and get to work.

Cut the chassis rails off for a 10' RV box, which can be built (DIY) or bought. MANY examples on here of both, pick your poison.

Take off wheels and tires from Dodge or Chevy (everyone wants to "upgrade") tons of them on CL for $500 - $750 for complete set of wheels and good tires.

So, now you are at $2,000 spent in parts, no $$ for labour and no box or flatbed. You are back to 24 grand, which is what you paid for the truck to begin with and you have lots done.

Programmer for more power - $1,000 (optional)
Build a simple steel flatbed - $1000
ARB lockers front and rear - $2500 (Detroit or LSD much cheaper)
Driver and Passenger suspension seats: $400
Rear bench seat/sofa from an RV: $600

That is $5500 in additional parts, no labour and no RV box. You are still under 30 grand. I am 100% confident I could build a nice RV box for $20,000, leaving at least $10,000 for miscellaneous expenses along the way. Will the RV be equal to Prevost? No, that's not what its for. Would I do this for a living for this price? No. Can it be done right and done well and have less than $60,000 in it... Absolutely.

A new loaded Ford or Dodge for $65K wont do all of the stuff this rig will do for less money. That is the whole point of the exercise.
 

proper4wd

Expedition Leader
Your numbers are still way off. Have you been through an in-depth vehicle build before?

Once again I will not argue that it is a cool idea. However... your perspective makes it sound like you could whip this up in a weekend with pocket change. It just doesn't work that way.

You are right that this vehicle will "do" thinks that a new Dodge or Ford wont. The Dodge or Ford will "do" a lot of things that this wont do, too. Availability off the shelf, warranty, cheap financing, cruise at 80mph, comfortable ride, no headaches required.

So you have the $20-$30k disposable cash to build one? I want to see it. I really like the idea.
 

SiliconTi

Stuck in the Mud
Interesting idea. I agree with others that it would take a huge amount of work to create this, however, if you can find a 4x4 version it would be fairly easy.
 

SpongeX

Rust does a body good.
This just wouldn't be capable enough in my neck of the woods.

Sent from my VS950 4G using Tapatalk
 

yabanja

Explorer
I am in agreement that the vehicle you have described would be ideal. However, it would have to be a labor of love. The thousands of hours involved have some value(if you have the experience required to build it then you know what I mean).
 

dlh62c

Explorer
I am 100% confident I could build a nice RV box for $20,000, leaving at least $10,000 for miscellaneous expenses along the way.

Money aside, once you start, its a job that it has to be finished sometime. People often start projects of such magnitude, then burn out. It helps if you have a secluded place to do the work, often neighborhoods and neighbors frown on such endeavors.

The RV box is like the framing of a house. Its the skeletal framework to which the interior systems will be attached. Speaking for myself, that part I would leave to a professional truck body builder. One has to keep in mind the materials used or you could end up with a toxic tin can from material out-gassing. If you want to save money, fit-out the interior yourself. Somewhere old or wrecked RVs go to die, that could be a good source for some of your interior components, such as stoves, toilets, shower stalls, water tanks, electrics, fixtures, awnings, seats, mattresses, and more.

EXPEDITION VEHICLE Build-Up

RV Salvage
 
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mog

Kodiak Buckaroo
Sounds like a great project.
I had almost those same plans until I found my creampuff FG (<50k miles, used by a little old lady to deliver furniture in a Colorado ski town).
Once you get away from the 4x4 cabover trucks, very good deals can be found.
I had already bought an '86 Iveco (<140k miles, parabolic springs, 6mm frame, spare engine) with the same type back as in your photo to use as my starting point .

DSCF3647.JPG

FYI (for sale $1,200)
NP205 divorced transfercase $400
 

LukeH

Adventurer
Hi
OK I subscribe the reasoning behing wanting a forward control crew cab, however as has been mentioned the fab work involved in attaching some american axles to a japanese chassis may be technically simple, but it's also physically hard. The idea of breaking up an integrated designed together system to put in after market upgrades is opening a Pandora's box of potential things to go wrong.

If one has the capability to do that kind of fabricationg why not take the bull by the other end (the front) instead?
The Jeep Mighty FC is an example of what can be done with modern off-the shelf parts, so what about a Domestic chop FC?
You choose your favourite fully integrated and perfectly reliable (serviceable in America) US SUV/pickup with its huge engine, cushy auto box, enormous range of after market bits and bobs and extensive Wheel/tyre choice; throw away the bodywork and graft on a forward control double cab from whichever japanese donor you prefer.
Three points to mount the cab, the gearbox is auto so no complex linkage there, the steering box can be rotated as the arm is on a spline, and then the sensor/power cables require much less heavy lifting than axles, transfer case, driveshafts etc.etc.
From a DD and domestic family vehicle POV this has to represent the best of both worlds, as you have all the US support structure of the base vehicle rather than have a mechanic turn his back on you cursing "forin metric japcrap".

I've been dreaming of doing this to a Humvee for years, great chassis, hopelessly impractical cab. In Europe however all american SUVs are considered exotica and are difficult to service/insure/modify etc.
This is a great bar conversation - what would be fun to build.
Whose round is it :) ?
 

Flys Lo

Adventurer
This is what my plans (eventually) are, they may match yours.

I prefer American pickups for their cheap parts/comfort/power/economy and I am in Australia... that said having owned cab over trucks they have some distinct advantages, ease of maintenance, better visibility, shorter vehicle for a given bed size with its inherent better break over angles etc. easier to package snorkels etc. but the available cab over trucks look like their engineering is 10 or 20+ years (in some cases) behind that of the American pickups.


My plan for a vehicle is an older (early 90's) Isuzu fitted with either a 6BG1T or 6BD1T engine (these typically come with either a 6 or 7 speed manual transmission). The engines are all mechanical, so simple to fix and you can run the engine through a river not worried about electrical issues or that you will grenade a high pressure fuel pump and do 15k of damage to your engine (like I could with my current F250), you can easily wind up the fuel pump to 250hp and probably 600-700lbft of torque, and they are probably the most reliable of any engine ever fitted to a small/medium truck. They are no-where near as quiet or as economical as my F250, and they won't make anywhere near as much power without some dollars thrown at them. My F250 probably makes in the region of 600-650hp and 1100lb ft of torque (tuned/emissions deleted) while getting 10l/100km (23mpg) empty at 110km/h. Not necessary by any means - but it puts a smile on my face, and destroys sand dunes :costumed-smiley-007

I then plan to fit front/rear axles and transfercase from an 11+ Ford SRW F250/F350, and hopefully the chassis as well (I really need to find a donor Isuzu first to see how everything matches up). That will give me a rear e-locker as standard and cheap options for a front locker too, good gearing for milage with 37's (3.55's), much more comfort from coil springs in the front (and better other suspension options that are easy/cheap), a chassis that is wider/stiff enough that you can directly mount a rear body to the chassis.


All that said, for North American purposes, your diesel pickups are exceptional (and cheap), and outside of the fact that I do worry about reliability issues in the middle of no-where in Australia with my F250 and its complicated engine ingesting a bad batch of diesel, there is almost no way you will get the economy or comfort in any of the current cab-over offerings.
 
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DzlToy

Explorer
The simple reason not to drop an NPR or Fuso cab onto a diesel american pickup is simple: It would be a step backward. Domestic trucks are garbage. You could not give me a domestic 3/4 ton or 1 ton pickup unless it was to sell for parts or scrap.

The mid 90's Dodges had a great motor (12 valve Cummins), the transmissions are terrible unless you build them up, they barely handle stock power, the axles have ball joints and some of the worst suspension design ever, the seats are ugly and uncomfortable, the interior is cheap and plasticky and they just really arent built all that well. Yes, I have 3-4 very close friends who have Dodge trucks I can tell you they spend TONS of time and $$ working on them, maintaining them and repairing them. Dodge trucks suffered from "death wobble" for a good 12-15 years. You mean to tell me that Chrysler with all of its engineering resources cant design a proper suspension in FIFTEEN YEARS???!!!!???!!? There is a reason for the saying, "the truck falls apart around the motor" and it applies to GM and Dodge. With Ford, the motor breaks and the truck is half way decent.

Ford has had so many bad diesel motors I have lost count. Two close friends had 6.0L and 6.4L trucks and they were both 60 thousand dollars worth of dog ****... The newer trucks are better in many respects but are loaded with electronic gadget-y crap, the cab has to be taken off the last few years of Superduty for anything other than very basic maintenance, they have tons of emissions junk on them, get horrible fuel mileage, are expensive, dont hold their value like a Toyota or Honda does, can only be serviced at the dealer for the most part and are only marginally better than the junk Detroit put out 15 years ago. I know Dodge has a plant in Mehico, so your "domestic" truck was built by amigos making two dollars a day and living in a shack. The GM motor (V8 Duramax) is pretty good for the most part but GM trucks just dont last and their interiors are garbage for sure, especially on a 60 thousand dollar truck. The IFS is notoriously weak and problematic for such a heavy duty truck. Allison does build good transmissions generally and the thought has crossed my mind to put one behind a 12 valve Cummins more than once. Six speed, double overdrive, push button shifting, available PTO, will handle 600-800 HP with some mods, 360 pounds.

If i wanted a diesel domestic pickup, I would buy one, like millions of other people here. People buy 1 ton pick ups to drive to work and take their kids to school for chrissakes. The whole point of the thread and those of you who read the original post and understood it should have grasped this, was to do something different. Why is a cabover better, why can it do everything that you need and want, etc. Why it is "cooler" than all the other "Cool" trucks like HDJ-78 wagons and Nissan Patrols, that we dont get here.

For the people who think swapping an axle under an NPR is difficult, please dont try it... While I have never done one under an NPR, swapping an axle is a cake walk with some basic fabrication and mechanical skills. It has been done tens of thousands of times by every back yard mechanic (including me) and thoroughly documented one every automotive forum in the world. You dont re-invent the wheel. You follow what works, known geometry, what is proven and what has already been done. Leaf springs are very simple. A 3 or 4 link suspension is only marginally more complicated but that can easily be handled using the famous four link calculator and some basic math. Again, its been done to death, not rocket science. If I can do it on a Toyota 4Runner, I can do it on an NPR. Call a good driveline shop and they can make whatever you want or need. Shocks, struts, bags, springs, etc., all easy to figure out from research and a trip to the junk yard, up to full custom jobs costing 10,000 dollars or more.

You can buy a good running mid 90's Dodge truck for $5 to 7 grand. Keep the Cummins, beef up the auto trans, transfer case is good, Dana 70 rear is good, rebuild the front 60 and drop the NPR cab onto it if that is how you want to do it. The motor will run forever on almost anything combustible and make anywhere from 170 HP to 1500 HP depending on how much $$ you want to throw at it. Tons of gear, locker, wheel and tire choices, hard to beat eight lug one ton running gear for cheap and beefy. Would those be my first choice for axles, no. Are the cheap and usable, yes. IF one were to go this route and could DIY everything, I bet you could do the entire build for 10-12 grand with some bargain hunting and horse trading (chassis cab only, no RV box, etc). Is that my plan or goal, nope. But its not a bad idea at all and I would take that platform IF I were going down that path before I would take a 7.3 Powerstroke or an early Chevy Duramax.

Do I need the truck drawn on the bar napkin? Not really... Would I use it if I had it? Of course I would... Do I want to spend the time covered in grease and oil, with busted knuckles and taking stuff back to the parts counter ten times because the kid cant read the book? Nope, sure dont... Is it fun to draw on a bar napkin and have a few pints? Yep...

A simple, plain Jane, mechanical, reliable and servicable truck is an anomoly in much of the modern world, at least in the US. There is no desire or market for it, so you either drive old stuff, buy new stuff that is reliable (Lexus, Acura, Honda, Toyota, etc) or you custom build everything.

Back to your regularly scheduled programming...... :beer:
 
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