How wide can you go?

[Capo]

Wheels and Tyres

From the 6x6 thread:

Originally Posted by mk216v:


"Tibus portal setup is about $12k USD.


Regarding your 35s on 18"s, make sure to look at sidewall tire heights with the 18" wheels. Why not stick with a 16" wheel(Hutchinson beadlock like mine?) and run a 35" tire? That way you have lots more sidewall....or meet in the middle and go 17" wheel with 35" tire."



16" Hutchinson and 35" would mean an awesome footprint in sand considering the ultra low pressure permitted by the bead locks. I just switched to a bead lock system called Tubliss, to try on one of my dirt bikes and I'm curious to see what I think about the extra weight. That bike is in Spain and I'll try it out as soon as I arrive there. I saw a Tubliss test of a dirt bike rider pounding through rocky sections the whole day on not a low pressure tyre but a completely flat tyre! - Absolutely amazing! The Tubliss bead lock system locks the bead with an inner ultra high pressure thick skinned tube (not sure how the bead locks on the Hutchinsons?). I'm not sure if I'd like the weight of the Hutchinsons which is quite a bit more than a traditional alu-wheel. Also, I was recommended by my mechanic to run a stock MB wheel in order not to raise suspicion of structural modification amongst CH traffic cops - again, the silly rules forcing you to sub-optimise. I already have stock MB wheels in both sizes and both wheels are homologated for the G400 but only the 18" will allow the better AMG brakes which is another stock MB upgrade I plan on doing. I've got spoiled by the marvellous brakes on Arnold the G55 and I find the G400 brakes insufficient when loaded above a total weight of 3.000kg.


Of course I would have preferred the sidewall height of 16"/35", it is an off-road vehicle I want after all. But I was shown an 18" wheel shod with a 35" tyre, placed next to my 16" wheel and it looked all right. It will give a better footprint than my current 16" and it will allow for a brake upgrade. My mechanic also took me for an inspired drive on both tarmac and a bumpy forest road and these tyres are a noticeable improvement over my 16"/265. Those 35" tyres just absorb so much already before the suspension kicks in. I've never tried 35" tyres before, it's a floating feeling and it was interesting to try them in a G to get a crisp comparison. Admittedly, the springs on my mechanic's G500 is a bit smoother than on Rommel but clearly there is a difference between the two tyre setups.


Well, this looks like the direction I'm taking but nothing is written in stone since I have a complete set of wheels in both sizes.

 

[Capo]

Going back to my initial question; the more strain you put on a bearing the more it will wear. Spacers obviously put additional strain on the wheel bearings.

I asked Davide at MaGicauto and he claimed the G wheel bearings are as strong as they come. He couldn't yet notice the additional wheel bearing wear on his G500 with spacers and 35" tyres and it has done many miles of active driving including Northern Africa. I guess it's just a matter of keeping check of the wear, deal with it as it comes and relax about it.

It's interesting when comparing additional wheel bearing strain between spacers and portals. With spacers we are talking about a mere 30mm on each side which seems to be holding up fine and with portals we are looking at 80mm on each side and still they seem to hold up alright. If the wear is at a decent pace it's just a matter of four new wheel bearings every now and then, no big deal. At least that's how I see it.

 

[Capo]

Some last pictures before Rommel changes looks.

 

[mk216v]

From the 6x6 thread:

Originally Posted by mk216v:

"Tibus portal setup is about $12k USD.

Regarding your 35s on 18"s, make sure to look at sidewall tire heights with the 18" wheels. Why not stick with a 16" wheel(Hutchinson beadlock like mine?) and run a 35" tire? That way you have lots more sidewall....or meet in the middle and go 17" wheel with 35" tire."



16" Hutchinson and 35" would mean an awesome footprint in sand considering the ultra low pressure permitted by the bead locks. I just switched to a bead lock system called Tubliss, to try on one of my dirt bikes and I'm curious to see what I think about the extra weight. That bike is in Spain and I'll try it out as soon as I arrive there. I saw a Tubliss test of a dirt bike rider pounding through rocky sections the whole day on not a low pressure tyre but a completely flat tyre! - Absolutely amazing! The Tubliss bead lock system locks the bead with an inner ultra high pressure thick skinned tube (not sure how the bead locks on the Hutchinsons?). I'm not sure if I'd like the weight of the Hutchinsons which is quite a bit more than a traditional alu-wheel. Also, I was recommended by my mechanic to run a stock MB wheel in order not to raise suspicion of structural modification amongst CH traffic cops - again, the silly rules forcing you to sub-optimise. I already have stock MB wheels in both sizes and both wheels are homologated for the G400 but only the 18" will allow the better AMG brakes which is another stock MB upgrade I plan on doing. I've got spoiled by the marvellous brakes on Arnold the G55 and I find the G400 brakes insufficient when loaded above a total weight of 3.000kg.


Of course I would have preferred the sidewall height of 16"/35", it is an off-road vehicle I want after all. But I was shown an 18" wheel shod with a 35" tyre, placed next to my 16" wheel and it looked all right. It will give a better footprint than my current 16" and it will allow for a brake upgrade. My mechanic also took me for an inspired drive on both tarmac and a bumpy forest road and these tyres are a noticeable improvement over my 16"/265. Those 35" tyres just absorb so much already before the suspension kicks in. I've never tried 35" tyres before, it's a floating feeling and it was interesting to try them in a G to get a crisp comparison. Admittedly, the springs on my mechanic's G500 is a bit smoother than on Rommel but clearly there is a difference between the two tyre setups.


Well, this looks like the direction I'm taking but nothing is written in stone since I have a complete set of wheels in both sizes.

Link; http://high-impact.net/hutchinson_tire_mounting_instructions_new.htm

A few good pictures;

 

[Capo]

Link; http://high-impact.net/hutchinson_tire_mounting_instructions_new.htm

[/QUTE]

Very good indeed, thanks!

The reverse offset is quite interesting. I've glanced a little at the Icelandic builds and it seems they all have extreme offsets. I guess the reason is they want as much sidewall as possible so they go for 15" wheels. But if they didn't use "deep dish" wheels the brake disc would still have fit fine in the wheel bell but the calliper wouldn't? So, now I suppose the whole brake is completely out of the bell so the caliper runs clear from the wheel but the disc still isn't as big as to hit the ground in case of a tyre blowout? - is this a correct assumption?

If my stock axles are up to it I might be interested in an Icelandic style 38" on 15" but reverse offset bead locks (I think I haven't seen bead locks on the Icelandic rigs?). I guess the spacers aren't needed because of the huge offset plus the very wide wheels. If possible I would like to be able to easily swap between 38" 15" and 35" 18". Perhaps different body lifts are needed making it too complicated? I must see if I can inform myself correctly on this. It will be interesting knowledge to gain!

 

[redneck44]

Fair enough if you have the money and want big offset wheels, but I have to ask, what are you trying to achieve with the extra wide set up.
Is there some deficeincy with the vehicle as it is, now that you have removed a lot of the weight from the roof.

I only ask as I'm currently fitting out my LR110 and after looking at what I want, adding a roof rack with all the associated stuff that entails, would mean a wider track etc etc. so I've decided against, which simplfies everything massively.

Have you seen Tom Sheppards G-wagon?

 

[mk216v]

Link; http://high-impact.net/hutchinson_tire_mounting_instructions_new.htm

[/QUTE]

Very good indeed, thanks!

The reverse offset is quite interesting. I've glanced a little at the Icelandic builds and it seems they all have extreme offsets. I guess the reason is they want as much sidewall as possible so they go for 15" wheels. But if they didn't use "deep dish" wheels the brake disc would still have fit fine in the wheel bell but the calliper wouldn't? So, now I suppose the whole brake is completely out of the bell so the caliper runs clear from the wheel but the disc still isn't as big as to hit the ground in case of a tyre blowout? - is this a correct assumption?

If my stock axles are up to it I might be interested in an Icelandic style 38" on 15" but reverse offset bead locks (I think I haven't seen bead locks on the Icelandic rigs?). I guess the spacers aren't needed because of the huge offset plus the very wide wheels. If possible I would like to be able to easily swap between 38" 15" and 35" 18". Perhaps different body lifts are needed making it too complicated? I must see if I can inform myself correctly on this. It will be interesting knowledge to gain!

On my '03 G500, there is maybe 5mm(?) clearance between caliper and inside of wheel....it's VERY close.

 

[mk216v]

A VW Dakar Rally car!

Oh, wouldn't that be a nice car to scoot around with like a maniac without a destination?! But I suppose the Bowler is a great option too with that wonderful V8, probably the best option?

Touareg monster.

 

[Capo]

Fair enough if you have the money and want big offset wheels, but I have to ask, what are you trying to achieve with the extra wide set up.
Is there some deficeincy with the vehicle as it is, now that you have removed a lot of the weight from the roof.

I only ask as I'm currently fitting out my LR110 and after looking at what I want, adding a roof rack with all the associated stuff that entails, would mean a wider track etc etc. so I've decided against, which simplfies everything massively.

Have you seen Tom Sheppards G-wagon?

For sure, keeping close to stock simplifies and simplification is not to be underestimated. I just had a look at Sheppard's G. It is very functional, not too much fixed structure which is my new aim. Tom doesn't even have a fixed tank for his extra fuel. To me a fixed tank with a bunker pump is quite nice though, you flick a switch and you are filling up your main tank on the go. I've tried filling from a canister in bad weather with hot sand blowing and blasting at me and I must say it really is better to flick a switch... My additional 140l tank is placed on top of the main tank in case the bunker pump fails. In such case I siphon over the fuel by gravity (this did in fact happen in Morocco). Thanks for letting me know of Tom's G!

To your question: Isn't my G good enough? Why bother with more improvement if simplicity will suffer? I know, but it's difficult not to be impressed how those Icelanders float along on both snow and sand. If you drive solo like I do it's nice to reduce your recovery frequency with the help of some additional clever equipment. All projects I do, boats, motorcycles, cars or terrain vehicles, I always get carried away exploring different directions before settling on an adequate solution. The mind has to have a few trips before the end result is accomplished. That's part of the joy. If it is feasible to have an interchangeable Icelandic wheel setup with a less radical kit, that would be worth while considering. If not, I must definitely go for a less radical setup in order not to have problems with the Swiss law. 18"/35" is probably maximum. If I can accept lesser brakes I'd seriously consider 16"/35 for a better footprint but my mechanic warned me that the large sidewalls will unnecessarily bring the attention of traffic coppers wanting to bust my b4lls over it. The Swiss laws on vehicles really are silly, they hardly allow any changes from stock. This is why a dual setup could work for me: one set of wheels for use within CH and the larger wheels when venturing abroad.

I hope I have answered your question.

 

[otiswesty]

On my '03 G500, there is maybe 5mm(?) clearance between caliper and inside of wheel....it's VERY close.

This can be a big problem.

With lower pressures, floating washboard at a higher speed (30mph), a poorly visible hole or washout can deform the rim into the brake and steering hardware with disatrous consequences. Wheel damage and drivetrain strain can be a big risk. I love a big and tall sidewall, but I am seriously considering a change to 17" or 18" for more clearance inside the wheel. I have destroyed a wheel on my Syncro and got a broken crankshaft from a big hidden hole in Baja.:costumed-smiley-007 Ya, oh ********!

 

[Capo]

This can be a big problem.

With lower pressures, floating washboard at a higher speed (30mph), a poorly visible hole or washout can deform the rim into the brake and steering hardware with disatrous consequences. Wheel damage and drivetrain strain can be a big risk. I love a big and tall sidewall, but I am seriously considering a change to 17" or 18" for more clearance inside the wheel. I have destroyed a wheel on my Syncro and got a broken crankshaft from a big hidden hole in Baja.:costumed-smiley-007 Ya, oh ********!

Interesting, but wouldn't that speak for an offset wheel where the brake rotor and calliper are outside of the wheel bell so you could use a tall sidewall without risking impact damage to your brakes?

 

[mk216v]

This can be a big problem.

With lower pressures, floating washboard at a higher speed (30mph), a poorly visible hole or washout can deform the rim into the brake and steering hardware with disatrous consequences. Wheel damage and drivetrain strain can be a big risk. I love a big and tall sidewall, but I am seriously considering a change to 17" or 18" for more clearance inside the wheel. I have destroyed a wheel on my Syncro and got a broken crankshaft from a big hidden hole in Baja.:costumed-smiley-007 Ya, oh ********!

Confirmed;
1/4"(6.35mm) between pad wear sensor "housing" on front caliper and Hutchinson WA-1207 16x7.5" beadlock


3/8"(9.525mm) between front caliper and Hutchinson WA-1207 16x7.5" beadlock


I feel comfortable with this amount of room Any less and I wouldn't.

How low of air pressures are you talking about Eric?
I wonder where the sweet spot is; talking about wheels made by the same company/ie same materials, a 16" wheel will be stronger than an 18", so even though the 18" has more clearance between caliper-wheel, a sizable impact may bend the 18" but not the 16".???

Eeesh, a broken crankshaft on the white Syncro? Do tell us more....

 

[otiswesty]

A bit OT I guess. It was a stock 14" VW alloy with a 27" General Grabber AT2 tire at about 20psi. Drive train was in 4wd.

Here is a picture of a 16" alloy with the min clearance lower ball joint bot circled. This is what tore the rim open as the drivetrain torque surged dramatically.

I think the Hutchinson G-class rim is undoubtably much stronger and this sort of damage would be much less likely. However, I have also bent a steel rim with a similar strike in the past, so inside wheel clearance off road deserves some consideration if you ask me.

Having a dramatic reverse offset has it's own set of issues that I have practically no experience with. So I would recommend thoroughly researching this issue before embarking on that; keeping in mind what your intent and use of the vehicle will be.

Another pic showing the stock wheel and the van in sand on the same trip but before the wheel damage.

 

[Capo]

I think the Hutchinson G-class rim is undoubtably much stronger and this sort of damage would be much less likely. However, I have also bent a steel rim with a similar strike in the past, so inside wheel clearance off road deserves some consideration if you ask me.

Having a dramatic reverse offset has it's own set of issues that I have practically no experience with. So I would recommend thoroughly researching this issue before embarking on that; keeping in mind what your intent and use of the vehicle will be.

I guess clearance is not to be taken lightly. Perhaps a 17" Hutchinson with a 35" tyre is a good solution for me. It's a strong wheel, practical with its obvious advantages and an additional inch in wheel diameter provides better clearance than 16". Or run my stock 16" or 18" and just be careful when driving with low pressure in sand and snow.

I wrote the Icelanders kindly asking for their opinion. I'll post information if they oblige with a reply.

 

[Capo]

Here's a tyre which might be suitable for my G400 if my stock 18" wheels are wide enough? 38" probably mean a reduction of the final gear ratio. Does anybody know how much reduction and if it's a big job? 35" would probably be ok without changing the ratio which is an advantage in simplicity. Body lift will be needed in both cases according to my mechanic.