raptor frame controversy

[Oman4x4]

We make desert racing jounce shocks where I work, so I've looked into the raptor frame "issue" extensively, from the perspective of "is there a problem" and "can we sell something". I can tell you as a mechanical engineer with years of chassis design and vehicle dynamics experience that the main "issue" is that the guy behind the wheel doesn't fully comprehend physics. This is not helped by Ford's marketing hype and videos, and failure to provide the uninformed "video game kid" with a simple understanding of physics.

The explanation they should be providing every customer is simple and could be something like this: "If you run over an obstacle at a high rate of speed, and that obstacle is larger than the available suspension travel, the suspension will "bottom out" and impart the additional travel directly to the frame of the vehicle. If the rate of speed is high, and the obstacle significantly larger than the available travel, the vehicle and occupants may become damaged by the excessive forces generated after the suspension has bottomed."

The frame is indeed crushing, right where the jounce bumper is mounted... Or rather, the axle is shoving the jounce bumper up through the frame, and bending the frame in the process. That means the forces at work are HUGE. Hitting a 14" bump or rut at 80mph requires the rear axle to move up about 12" in a fraction of a second, and there's only about 8" of up-travel available on a stock Raptor assuming the jounce bumper fully compresses, so the extra 4" of axle displacement is trying to lift the whole rear of the truck 4" in about .05 seconds. How much force you think that takes? Enough to collapse it and bow it from the impact loading, that's a proven fact!

My take is that there's a plus side to this failure mode... Having the frame bend is probably saving a LOT of people from having neck and back problems for the rest of their lives. The frame crushing is actually dissipating the excessive g-forces that would otherwise be spiking up though the driver's/passenger's spines, thus SAVING the drivers and passengers from becoming critically injured!

And we ended up leaving the application of our jounce shock to the guys at SuperDuty HQ, who already had a pretty sweet mounting setup for our units. They don't fix physics, but they add a little protection for a slightly overdriven obstacle. You have to realize that the trophy trucks that you see bombing the desert at 80mph have upwards of 15" of suspension travel, and drivers VERY skilled at reading terrain and keeping the speed in check for what they see... Good luck learning that through a video game or w/o breaking something occasionally!
Chris

Well said.

Common Sense and understanding what's going on - there isn't an issue. Understand the difference between a Raptor and a full on Trophy Truck and drive it accordingly and you've got a very well equipped vehicle straight from the showroom.

Just picked mine up 2 weeks ago. Been wanting one for about 4 years now.

 

[pappawheely]

Ooops, my bad. I meant that Trophy Trucks have 15" of UP-travel from normal ride height. I think most do have 30" of overall travel. Your pre-runner probably has 10" or so of up-travel from ride height. A raptor has quite a bit less than that, and if you're not aware that certain events require more travel, you're going to bend your frame. Sweet truck, BTW!!

That makes more sense. BTW, that's not my prerunner, that's Jimmy Beaver's Trophy Truck. Here is my prerunner.

 

[ZJARCHER]

I've had two buddies tweak their frames (in their raptors) following me through a section of choppy 3' rollers. One is now back halfed and plated front half, the other sold his and bought a Dodge mega cab to throw some Carli stuff at it.

I drive a Carli suspended Dodge, wouldn't have it any other way.

Ford's Marketing program is amazing. The shock tune is sub par, and the trucks are just weak in general. Little things like interior falling apart, leaky axle seals after very little time, toasted motor mounts... the trucks were built to please a certain crowd (the crowd that thinks 60 mph on a powerline rd is prerunning a race course) and any well built, well suspended truck theyre following quickly exposes that.

 

[toylandcruiser]

This post caused me to spend close to an hour on Youtube watching people jumping their Raptors, Geeez! I would have never guessed that so many people would get the impression that their new Raptor is a stadium truck. There seems to be no end to peoples capacity for poor judgment. On the other hand, having seen some video of what a stock Raptor is capable of absorbing from the showroom...well done Ford/Fox!!! How much more air is the 2015 model year Alu version going to be capable of?

Maybe ford should not show it being driven like that in commercials.


Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
Benjamin Franklin

 

[Milo902]

I've had two buddies tweak their frames (in their raptors) following me through a section of choppy 3' rollers. One is now back halfed and plated front half, the other sold his and bought a Dodge mega cab to throw some Carli stuff at it.

I drive a Carli suspended Dodge, wouldn't have it any other way.

Ford's Marketing program is amazing. The shock tune is sub par, and the trucks are just weak in general. Little things like interior falling apart, leaky axle seals after very little time, toasted motor mounts... the trucks were built to please a certain crowd (the crowd that thinks 60 mph on a powerline rd is prerunning a race course) and any well built, well suspended truck theyre following quickly exposes that.

Out of curiosity, what makes you say the shock tune is sub par? I assumed (naively?) that with the resources available to Ford and Fox, they would do a pretty good job getting the most out of those shocks & chassis. I know Carli is generally thought of as shock god, maybe it's just in comparison to their offerings?

 

[HRT Offroad]

Out of curiosity, what makes you say the shock tune is sub par? I assumed (naively?) that with the resources available to Ford and Fox, they would do a pretty good job getting the most out of those shocks & chassis. I know Carli is generally thought of as shock god, maybe it's just in comparison to their offerings?

I wouldn't necessarily say that the shock tuning is sub par for the masses, but for those that want to push the limits - it definitely is. Tuning a truck's suspension to both work well in a street environment and perform amazingly well offroad is a skill that very few possess...or are willing to put the time in to achieving. It requires multiple valve profile changes (while thinking outside the box) to identify the areas where there can be give and take. And, honestly, from my experience with fox - they stay fairly close to their "chart" valve profiles and don't deviate too far from the norm. Sage Carli has spent years to achieve the right formula...and is still improving on it now and will continue to improve on it into the future.

Ford and Fox do have vast resources and money...which equals spending major dollars on marketing to make you think that you are purchasing a "baja elite" style rig. They basically mind screw you into thinking that you are buying something much different than what you really are

 

[O.R.T.]

I wouldn't necessarily say that the shock tuning is sub par for the masses, but for those that want to push the limits - it definitely is. Tuning a truck's suspension to both work well in a street environment and perform amazingly well offroad is a skill that very few possess...

I disagree and would absolutely say it was and still is sub-par for the intended "market base" they were aiming for. We can carry the logic and premises ignored in the setup of the Raptors by simply turning to the Mountain Bike Industry. Corporate Bean Counters have more say and in this case they decided to shoot low and left of center in specs. (ie: There's a reason places like PUSH exist.) They came up with a "brilliant" idea and as always is the case, over-hyped.

Let's all admit it since Ford and Fox won't, there's a formula they agreed upon, the same as the bicycle industry seems to have agreed upon. The so called "safe-zone". In mountain biking that being all riders are 150-175lbs, 5'11", and are experienced riders who know the terrain. Ford and Fox's was our "modified" F150 will weigh in the neighborhood of 5750-6200lbs, have x-travel, x-horsepower, etc-etc, and similar to what I just said, all are experienced drivers who know the terrain, with a frame material and clearances a little shy of it to avoid any finger pointing liabilities in case x-person(s) are injured/killed during their activities.

As we all know, Murphy and Reality tend to have other ideas at play, in this case Ford and Fox need to face it. In the meantime, as is in off-roading or the mountain biking industries, aftermarket support will capitalize on the errors.

 

[HRT Offroad]

I disagree and would absolutely say it was and still is sub-par for the intended "market base" they were aiming for. We can carry the logic and premises ignored in the setup of the Raptors by simply turning to the Mountain Bike Industry. Corporate Bean Counters have more say and in this case they decided to shoot low and left of center in specs. (ie: There's a reason places like PUSH exist.) They came up with a "brilliant" idea and as always is the case, over-hyped.

Let's all admit it since Ford and Fox won't, there's a formula they agreed upon, the same as the bicycle industry seems to have agreed upon. The so called "safe-zone". In mountain biking that being all riders are 150-175lbs, 5'11", and are experienced riders who know the terrain. Ford and Fox's was our "modified" F150 will weigh in the neighborhood of 5750-6200lbs, have x-travel, x-horsepower, etc-etc, and similar to what I just said, all are experienced drivers who know the terrain, with a frame material and clearances a little shy of it to avoid any finger pointing liabilities in case x-person(s) are injured/killed during their activities.

As we all know, Murphy and Reality tend to have other ideas at play, in this case Ford and Fox need to face it. In the meantime, as is in off-roading or the mountain biking industries, aftermarket support will capitalize on the errors.

Sorry...I should have described "masses" better. We are located in Alberta and there are many consumers here that would purchase a Raptor for nothing more than a grocery getter. I would believe that a huge percentage of Raptors (up here) don't even see a dirt road...let alone the desert. Our terrain also doesn't (for the most part) place that high of a demand on the average drivers suspension in the realm of high speed offroading (like one may find in the desert states). However, I do agree with your statements...

IMO...Fox has always fell a little short in the shock game, but our climate dictates a different set of rules.

 

[pappawheely]

I doubt the engineers at FOX designed the Raptor shocks to perform in a Canadian winter. The Raptor is a factory built truck. It is a compromise like everything else built for a large distribution. The problem is the owners who think it is some kind of a Trophy Truck; it isn't. If you want a higher level of performance you have to go with a custom tune. True Trophy Trucks are designed to handle huge bumps at speed. Put them on a slalom course and they will be dragging the door handles if they had them.

 

[HRT Offroad]

You're right...No company builds shocks specific to our winters But we have worked diligently with Carli and King to adapt them for us...

 

[ZJARCHER]

Out of curiosity, what makes you say the shock tune is sub par? I assumed (naively?) that with the resources available to Ford and Fox, they would do a pretty good job getting the most out of those shocks & chassis. I know Carli is generally thought of as shock god, maybe it's just in comparison to their offerings?

The truck isn't tuned off the floor. That's what makes me say that. haha... The rear out works the front 10 fold. For an IFS truck (Ive built a couple IFS trucks that WORK), its kind of pathetic. Granted, they have the resources available, I just think they knew the frame was going to be a weak point, and that if the shocks were tuned to their capabilities, they would have a LOT of warranty claims on their hands. In a sense, I think they did something similar to what car manufacturers do in "tuning down" the motor, but with the shock package in the Raptor. Maybe for liability reasons.

And yeah, I guess you could say it is in comparison to Carli's offerings. But also in comparison to many trucks Ive built and helped build and tune over the last few years. A well tuned IFS truck is unbeatable at high speed in the rough.

I will say this though... a couple companies offer a 3.0 shock and tune (In King and Fox flavors) for Raptors that REALLLLLY wakes up the suspension in them. That combined with a well plated frame, if you don't mind over maintaining the little things that fall apart on the truck, makes for a REALLY good combo. Another buddy of mine went this route recently, and Im impressed with his rig. He valved the shocks himself, so it can be done.

 

[HRT Offroad]

The truck isn't tuned off the floor. That's what makes me say that. haha... The rear out works the front 10 fold. For an IFS truck (Ive built a couple IFS trucks that WORK), its kind of pathetic. Granted, they have the resources available, I just think they knew the frame was going to be a weak point, and that if the shocks were tuned to their capabilities, they would have a LOT of warranty claims on their hands. In a sense, I think they did something similar to what car manufacturers do in "tuning down" the motor, but with the shock package in the Raptor. Maybe for liability reasons.

And yeah, I guess you could say it is in comparison to Carli's offerings. But also in comparison to many trucks Ive built and helped build and tune over the last few years. A well tuned IFS truck is unbeatable at high speed in the rough.

I will say this though... a couple companies offer a 3.0 shock and tune (In King and Fox flavors) for Raptors that REALLLLLY wakes up the suspension in them. That combined with a well plated frame, if you don't mind over maintaining the little things that fall apart on the truck, makes for a REALLY good combo. Another buddy of mine went this route recently, and Im impressed with his rig. He valved the shocks himself, so it can be done.

I agree 100%. Never once did I say it couldn't be done...I just don't really think it was a focal point in the Raptor's design as much many of us would have hoped. I know if I wanted a IFS Ford...I would probably buy a regular F150 and build it. As there is no sense paying for a bunch of stuff that is just going to get discarded.

 

[Big50]

I agree 100%. Never once did I say it couldn't be done...I just don't really think it was a focal point in the Raptor's design as much many of us would have hoped. I know if I wanted a IFS Ford...I would probably buy a regular F150 and build it. As there is no sense paying for a bunch of stuff that is just going to get discarded.

The only thing that gets discarded are the stock shocks when you upgrade. Well, depending on how far you go lol.

I can't say I disagree with you about building a regular F150. I thought long and hard before I picked up my 2013 after my 2011 was totaled. However, I didn't want to deal with a major build up and loosing my truck to a shop for a couple months. I also needed a truck that could tow, which a sprung under F150 probably isn't best suited to do. And finally, with that much performance of a long travel front and a sprung under rear you really need a cage. Now this is not for me as my truck doubles a tow hauler and a family camping vehicle. That's not to say it doesn't see dirt. Since August I've put roughly 2500 offroad miles on it.

I guess the best way to describe the Raptor is it does a lot of things well but isn't the best at one thing. I realize there's a lot of owners out there that act like the Raptor is the end all be all for offroad trucks and I know very well it's limitations. I get why so many people find that annoying.

 

[HRT Offroad]

The only thing that gets discarded are the stock shocks when you upgrade. Well, depending on how far you go lol.

That there is the kicker...If I was to build an IFS truck my preference would be building a true long travel rig...so pretty much everything that makes the Raptor a Raptor would be disco'd. But, just like ZJARCHER...My Dodge does everything I "need" a truck to do and does it very well.

 

[155mm]

I agree 100%. Never once did I say it couldn't be done...I just don't really think it was a focal point in the Raptor's design as much many of us would have hoped. I know if I wanted a IFS Ford...I would probably buy a regular F150 and build it. As there is no sense paying for a bunch of stuff that is just going to get discarded.

That's pretty funny and true of many Raptor owners. If you go to the Raptor forums, half the guys are talking about ditching the front/rear suspensions... And not just shocks but control arms, tie rods, glass fenders, front/rear bumpers... Pretty much everything that Ford dropped in it to make it different from the other F-150s, these guys are getting rid of... except maybe the front grill with the running lights and the stripe on the steering wheel :ylsmoke: