What is the BEST....High Altitude Solution for Heating?

biotect

Designer
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3. How overlanding possibilities appear.... from Europe


In short, the world looks very different if one is resident in the EU, as opposed to the United States. And realistic "overlanding possibilities" will seem different, too. For Europeans geography “feels” different, because Europeans are Eurasians. Europeans live on a continent that includes Tibet. Indeed, a continent that includes China and India.

Remember, New Delhi is only 8 hours by jet from London, whereas California is a very, very long way away from just about anywhere interesting, with the sole exception of Mexico and Central America. Los Angeles is 11 hours by plane to London in one direction, and 11 hours to Tokyo in the other. Disclosure: I was born in Canada, then raised in Switzerland, Italy, Canada, and Germany; did undergraduate and postgraduate studies in the United States, including many years in California; and now live in London. And that's just where I've lived, not where I've travelled....:)

Pretty much the only truly culturally "other", picturesque, and interesting travel destination that's close to the United States, is indeed Latin America, which is perhaps why the American overlanding industry seems somewhat "Latin America" oriented? But this is not how realistic overlanding prospects look from a European perspective.

Furthermore, consider: like central Asia, Africa is also at Europe's doorstep, just a short hop by car-ferry from the EU. Morocco and Tunisia can be reached from Genoa by super-fast car-ferry in roughly 1 - 2 days -- see http://www.gnv.it/en/gnv.html and http://www.gnv.it/en/gnv-routes.html :


mappa_en.jpg. Grandi-Navi-Veloci-routes.jpg


Similarly abundant car-ferries connect Venice, Ancona, and Bari to Athens and Istanbul. These enormous ferries carry semi-trailer trucks as well as cars, ergo, they have no problem carrying expedition motorhomes of just about any size. Which perhaps explains why Mercedes Benz Offroad organizes annual G-wagen trips to Tunisia....

Maybe one has to live in Europe for a few years to realize how encircled the continent has become by mega-sized car-ferries serving holiday-makers; car ferries that are pleasant, relatively cheap, easy to use, and have weekly service, including to ports in North Africa. I once travelled from Genoa to England almost completely by car ferry: from Genoa to Barcelona with the first ferry; then driving across Spain for six hours to Bilbao; followed by a second ferry from Bilbao to Plymouth, England. I've also taken car ferries between England and Ireland, England and France, England and Norway, Venice and Dubrovnik, and Ancona to Athens.


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4. Altiplano Truckers



However, I've still not seen much of South America, only central America and the Caribbean. So DiploStrat, given your personal experience of the Altiplano in Bolivia, it would be great if you'd be wiling to speculate an answer to the question posed in the long passage quoted above:

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How do trucks and tour-buses that travel the Altiplano and the Tibetan plateau heat their cabins? Do they ever use diesel heaters or pre-heaters? Do they only heat when the engine is running?

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My personal experience of Nepal and Tibet has been exclusively via treks, where I focused on the walking. In Nepal I typically flew to trek entry and departure points by STOL turbo-prop airplane, whereas in Tibet vehicular travel was by SUV. At the time I didn't think to ask how their engines or heating systems worked at high-altitude, and/or the extent to which they'd been modified.

One interesting web-discussion suggests that even diesel-equipped vehicles will begin producing black smoke at high-altitude, unless the spring on the turbo's dump gate is tightened a bit -- see http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hubb/4wd-overland-tech/high-altitude-and-diesel-engine-20169 .
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biotect

Designer

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5. Land-Cruisers Belching Black Smoke on the Roof of the World



Here are the most interesting posts from the thread just referenced, on the "Horizons Unlimited" website dedicated to overland motorbiking -- see http://www.horizonsunlimited.com . It's a bit of a mystery why these posts appeared there, and not on ExPo or some other web-forum that covers SUV overlanding, because most of the posts in the thread discuss the diesel engines of Toyota Landcruisers, and not motorbikes.

I decided to repost the most interesting entries here because they seem particularly valuable, and certainly relevant to this thread. Hopefully some might feel moved to respond to these posts in this thread. Although the topic of this thread is solutions for high-altitude heating, a diesel generator will most likely be part of that solution. So discussion of diesel engine performance at 15,000 feet seems very relevant. Again, see http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hubb/4wd-overland-tech/high-altitude-and-diesel-engine-20169 and http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/hubb/4wd-overland-tech/high-altitude-and-diesel-engine-20169-2 :


Tripitaka

In the Atlas and Hoggar I've experienced problems with black smoke and and less power when I got over 2500m altitude. Now I'm planning a trip to Pamir so I'm a little worried. The fuel-air mix are well set for moderate altitudes, should I change it when I get there? I'm in a TLC HJ-60 (Diesel 6).

Does anyone know about the problem?

Thanks for advice!

Quintin

I wouldn't bother. This happens with all diesel engines at increasing altitudes. The problem is that you will never get the mixture exactly right. Injection pumps are impossible to set up correctly without specialist equipment and furthermore you may find you will run lean when you get down to "normal" altitudes. This can be potentially harmful for a diesel and is far worse than running rich.


Q
m37charlie

I'm sorry, your advice is incorrect.

Diesels run leaner than stoichiometric; petrol motors always richer than stoichiometric. Stoichiometric is defined as just enough fuel for the air to burn completely. A diesel, when overfueled, can develop very high EGTs. A petrol motor can develop high EGTs when under fueled. So running at high altitude can cause high EGTs and damage an engine. This can be mitigated by installing a turbo to supply more air but not turning the fuel up..

All underfuelling a diesel causes is low power output.


Charlie


Luke

You could tighten down the spring on the turbo's dump gate.

There's a sort of bar between the exhaust side and the inlet side of the turbo, it regulates the turbo pressure by bypassing the exhaust turbine. Boosting turbo pressure at sea level will push hotter, but more air into the cylinder. At altitude, because the air is thinner, you'll simply bring the engine back to nominal.

Paint a mark where the nut is at the moment, so that you can reset it easily for the descent.
cheers

Luke

kitmax

Hi Tripitaka

I took my Land Rover Discovery TDi300 across Tibet last year. Me and my mates were driving at over 15,000ft for ten days, and peaked out at an amazing 17,800ft. The cars all made nasty smoke, and some were difficult to start from standstill under load, (ie up an embankment). But once running I was barely aware of the reduced power. Just the other bloke's smoke… Use of gears obviously helped, keep the engine revs up above 2,000rpm and you should have no problem.

All best

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Kitmax - Traveller
www.kitmax.com

jzmq

Some HJ60s have what is called an altitude compensator- its a round thing located on the rear of the pump. By turning that one way or another it is supposed to make a difference in how much fuel is given to the engine. Check out Ih8mud.com they have tons of info about LCs


John
jljones

I have an 80 series Land Cruiser with the altitude compensator and it seemed to work well on a trip through N Africa last year, sept-nov. No really noticeable loss of power - No increase in black smoke which is usually a product of poor diesel quality, too much sulphur etc. Unusual addition to the car as it is a '93 car, Japanese import, with separate switch for centre diff lock, another for front and rear...excellent vehicle
Moodoo

We are in Delhi and about to drive around Kashmir where passes reach 5475m high. Some last minute research has found my UK 1989 HJ60 Landcruiser does not have a high altitude compensator (HAC) on the 2H injection pump governer.

People have mentioned black smoke blowing at altitude, but not high exhaust gas temperatures (EGT) which i read can apparently damage and even melt the aluminium pistons!

I really want to drive the Manali-Leh highway, but really really don't want to wreck the engine. We are carrying a lot of weight and it is a long route. I dont have a pyrometer to measure EGT either.

- Is it enough to install a new airfilter, gear down and back off the accelerator?
- Should i try to manually adjust the fuel? but based on what, altitude / smoke?

Any information or experiences would be much appreciated,

Cheers, Andrew

P.S. for current Manali>Leh highway status, see http://vistet.wordpress.com/category/manali-leh-road/ .
RussG

OK I maybe talking complete junk here but I would assume smoke equals un burnt fuel. Pouring diesel in to the cylinders and NOT burning it will actually have a cooling affect.

A non turbo diesel will be more robust / safe in this scenario when compared to a turbo engine.

We've been up to 3000m+, six adults, trailer and pretty heavily laden in our normally aspirated G Wagen (6 cylinder, 3litre). Lots of smoke (not as much as a turbo diesel) and no ill effects.

If you are concerned I would get an EGT fitted though. Or rig up something by using a multimeter with a thermocouple attachment to measure exhaust temp. by placing the probe on to the exhaust mainifold.

IMHO smoke in these conditions is of no consequence though.

Oh and I would definitely steer well clear of messing with the pump and fueling, definitely asking for trouble.


m37charlie


I'm sorry, you too are wrong. Extra unburned fuel tries to keep burning after the exhaust valve opens, leading to very high EGT and burned exhaust valves. Plus, overfueled diesels tend to melt pistons.

An unmodified naturally aspirated diesel at very high altitude might not burn valves and pistons, but on the other hand it might. Overfueled engines at sea level certainly do.

If a person were to take up residence at high altitude, de-tuning the pump will lead to decreased fuel consumption and decreased EGTs, relative to leaving it alone.

Toyota's system on some of their diesels of an anaeroid ("DAC") and a throttle body to measure air flow should adequately compensate automatically for altitude.

Charlie


ilesmark


Moodoo - lucky you!

I think the 1990 80 series we did Manali-Leh in did have a HAC, although it seemed to smoke a bit and wasn't very fast at that altitude. But it's academic, for you wouldn't want to go fast anyway - both for safety and scenery reasons

My advice - go slowly and enjoy the stupendous views.

Mark

overlandcruiser.net


joshoisasleep


Hey guys just wanted to comment here as I have some experience overlanding and driving at altitude in an old diesel 60. My truck is a 1981 BJ60 (same truck but with a 4 cyl 3B engine instead of the 6 cyl 2H) with no HAC and I have taken it above 13,000 feet WITHOUT a turbo, and above 17,000 feet WITH one.

I will second the ih8mud.com link above. The diesel cruiser community on that site is what has kept my cruiser alive all this time, and where I've learned anything I know about them.

If you are thinking of driving above 10,000 feet for any length of time or for serious overlanding, I would definitely suggest getting a turbo installed. The 2H engine will take well to it, and there are plenty of resources available (ih8mud.com) for information on doing it. Make sure you do it right though... a crappy turbo install can leave you bleeding oil in the wrong places or worse, as happened to me eventually. A good turbo install set up for nothing more than altitude compensation should not adversely affect the reliability of the cruiser, and of course will increase longevity of the engine if you are driving at altitude a lot or with heavy loads.

*** The black smoke is bad, yes it does mean high EGT's. The cruiser can handle a litle bit of it, but the advice I've always followed is "if you see the black smoke, let off the pedal until you don't see it anymore". ***

Quote:
Originally Posted by RussG

A non turbo diesel will be more robust / safe in this scenario when compared to a turbo engine.


Also not true IMO. A turbo forces more air mass into the engine block, which has a cooling effect. Adding a turbo will keep your engine's EGTs cooler in all conditions. However if you DO have a turbo and you are seeing black smoke, it is true that this is slightly more serious as you obviously have a problem with your turbo.

A poor man's safety net if you don't have the money for the turbo would simply be to install an EGT gauge so you can make sure you're not burning up and know exactly when to back off on the pedal. This should cost you about $120 US, and the install is as easy as drilling a hole. If you are planning on turbo'ing down the road, you will still want this gauge so its a win-win addition really.

I would suggest adding a turbo. Although mine blew up in the end due to a poor install and welding decision on my part, I would not have been able to enjoy the high altitude deserts in Bolivia without it, and that is something I would not have wanted to miss out on. Your engine will be more powerful and happier, and WAY more powerful and happier at altitude.


Moodoo


Thanks all for the advice, much appreciated. It was a great route to take and in my opinion well worth any risk.

We ended up driving very slowly for all of it, a lot of the time second gear / 1250rpm / 18kph, and never over 40kph the whole time. The scenery is so spectacular that it wasn't as frustrating as you would expect. Over 5000m the engine sounded so rough that I really didn't want to push it anyhow. The local drivers were amused though. Judging by the amount of black smoke they were kicking out they really don't care about high EGTs
smile.gif


A turbo would be nice, and what a great justification to get one! However cost-wise for now I'll probably go with fitting a pyrometer...

Cheers,

Andrew


mailking


We've done that stretch also with our BJ45. It has the 3B [4 cylinders] engine. Just keeping it slow and steady, we were able to drive that road without problems. Even the road to the Nubra valley. The so called "highest motorable road in the world" wasn't a problem. You can play with the accelerator a little bit and see where the car still feels ok and the black smoke is the least.

We are now on our way again to Bolivia. Same story; altitude. But other conditions make it worse here; head winds, washboard gravel and small dunes. You want to speed up to comfortably take on the washboards, but you can't. And slowing down gets you stuck in the small dunes In comparison this makes the Leh - Manali road easy...



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In closing, many thanks for all the technical leads, and for the link to the Travelin-Tortuga website. The Duramax engine looks very interesting -- see http://www.travelin-tortuga.com/Travelin-Tortuga/our-vehicle/:


"Diesel power. Diesel gives greater fuel economy, and unlike in the US, diesel fuel is less expensive than gasoline in most of the world. Diesel engines , particularly when turbo equipped, are also much less affected by high altitude such as is commonly encountered in both Central and South America. Note that at this time care must be taken in selecting a diesel powered vehicle for travel outside the US, Canada, or Europe as many countries do not yet use the Ultra Low Sulphur fuel that is now required for engines sold in these countries. Our Tiger is built on a 2007 Silverado Classic chassis that uses the 2006 Duramax engine. This engine does not require Ultra Low Sulphur fuel. For further discussion of this issue check this link http://www.globalxvehicles.com/vehicle-8. More recent information suggests that actually, diesel engines sold between 2008 and 2010 are much more tolerant of non-ultra low sulphur fuel than was thought at first. Experience seems to show that travel in Mexico or other countries will not harm the emission systems of these vehicles for at least 40,000 miles and perhaps more. Specific research on this topic should be done by anyone considering international travel in such a vehicle."


Also interesting that Travelin-Tortuga's heating and cooking is propane, and that they don't have air-conditioning. On their "vehicle" webpage they have a link to a pdf produced by the Hackneys, titled "Propane Systems for Expedition Vehicles" -- see http://www.travelin-tortuga.com/Travelin-Tortuga/our-vehicle/ and http://www.hackneys.com/travel/docs/propane4xvehicles.pdf . Guess what I'll be reading over the next few days....:)

At the end of your post you wrote:



While I know what I have done and what I would do, I am always a bit hesitant to make categorical statements; everyone sees things differently.



Fully agreed. But that's what makes a forum like ExPo so useful. Because as long as everyone remembers this, the exchange of views and opinions can be very enlightening.

Again, many thanks for your reply, all best wishes,



Biotect
 
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biotect

Designer
Addendum,

Researching recent automotive excursions that have crossed the Tibetan plateau has convinced me even more that "Tibetan altitude" matters, a lot, for European overlanders, even if Tibet seems a bit abstract and remote to many Americans. Since completing the posts above I've come across some more recent trips across the plateau, undertaken by Landrover. These Landrover trips are beautifully documented, with stunning photographs and very thorough web-blogs. But this is a "High Altitude Heating" thread, not a thread about various recent European excursions that have crossed the Tibetan plateau.

So if you want to read more about "Why Tibetan Altitude Matters", see pages 35 through 38 at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...pedition-RV-w-Rigid-Torsion-Free-Frame/page35 , http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...pedition-RV-w-Rigid-Torsion-Free-Frame/page36 , http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...pedition-RV-w-Rigid-Torsion-Free-Frame/page37 , and http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...pedition-RV-w-Rigid-Torsion-Free-Frame/page38 (standard ExPo pagination), posts #348 - #380. There I cover no less than four Landrover expeditions that have crossed central Asia, three of them recent, and two of them having crossed the Tibetan plateau specifically:

  • "Oxford and Cambridge Far Eastern Expedition", 1955 - 1956, pioneering "First Overland" journey, London to Singapore
  • "One millionth Discovery Expedition", 2012, milestone marker and charity fundraising, Birmingham to Beijing
  • "Siedenstrasse" or "Silk Road Tour", 2013, Landrover-Germany expedition, PR adventure holiday, Berlin to Mumbai, crossed the Tibetan plateau
  • "Silk Trail Hybrid Expedition", 2013, technology testing, 2103, Birmingham to Mumbai, crossed the Tibetan plateau
Add to this the two Mercedes-Benz Offroad G-wagen excursions just described that crossed Tibet in 2011 and 2012, and a third G-wagen expedition that will cross Tibet in September of this year, 2014, and it becomes apparent that the Tibetan plateau is veritably awash with large, ambitious, SUV-based expeditions.

Then add various "
Istanbul to Kathmandu" excursions run by overlanding companies that also cross the Tibetan plateau.....

But more about them in the other thread. That way this thread can get back to its central animating question: "What is the BEST.....High Altitude Solution for Heating?"

All best wishes,



Biotect
 
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DiploStrat

Expedition Leader
To answer your question about cabin heat. As far as I know, no one does anything special; they simply use the vehicle heater, if there is one, or the combined heat of the passengers, if there is none.

-- In Ecuador in the 1970's most of the buses were locally built variations of the US school bus model.

-- In Bolivia in the late 1990's most of the buses were modern European/Brazilian beasts that looked by Volvos, etc.

One conventional wisdom has been that the best overland engine is a naturally aspirated diesel as this reduces the danger of wear caused by ingestion of pressurized dust. Interesting idea, but a super charger offers so many advantages and the better answer may simply be to carry enough air filters. In the 1970's, with carburetor gasoline engines, you noticed performance drops at altitude. With electronic fuel injection and supercharged diesels, the drop off is barely noticeable.

No one is ruling out high altitude; certainly not North Americans who routinely travel the rockies or the Andes. Not as high as the Tibetan plateau, but close enough to be miserable. The short answer seems to be that propane and diesel heaters work up to 10 - 11,000 feet. Lots of anecdotal reports on this. Long term damage (sooting up, etc.)? Less reporting.

All things considered, it is always easier to heat than to cool.

Elsewhere in the news, do remember that there is a VAST difference between being part of an organized expedition (like the Mercedes Benz trips and others) and a solo trip. The moment that you have additional vehicles to share parts, tow, etc., everything is much, much easier. Especially if the the expedition is backed by the works.

Traveling alone as many of my friends have, however, the risks and costs of breakdowns are much greater, as I note watching two of my contacts struggle to replace the portal gears in their Unimogs. The costs and be astronomical. Thus a solo traveler may be forgiven for avoiding certain parts of the world, not because the roads are bad, but because the DHL service is bad.

Buried in the MB literature is a telling comment for diesel engines - engines must be converted to Euro 3 in order to burn the high sulfur diesel common outside of Europe and North America. This a a big issue, if only because the manufacturers are so afraid of being in violation of emission standards that they will offer no real information about what is required and what may be required to convert back.

 
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biotect

Designer
Hi Diplomstrat,

Interesting; I wonder what those Euro-Brazilian-Bolivian Volvos were. Will now need to research Bolivian buses.....:)

Agreed about diesels and turbo-charging. Because emissions standards have tightened air-cooled diesels are fast disappearing. Deutz, for instance, no longer makes an air-cooled V8 for automotive use.

And agreed about the desirability of not traveling in remote parts alone. But here two points need to be made:

1. I was imagining the Tibetan plateau also as a place one might want to merely cross, as a "short-cut" from India to China, or vica-versa. The roads are good, even if the DHL might not be, so there is really no reason to fear a breakdown in the middle of nowhere if one sticks to the main highways. I am also imagining the Tibetan plateau as it will be 10 years from now, with even more paved roads and perhaps a 4-lane expressway running all the way to Lhasa.

2. On the other hand if one wants to see the Tibetan plateau at length, of course it makes eminent good sense to travel in tandem with at least one other vehicle, perhaps with another overlanding couple who one meets along the way. But this is a truism almost everywhere outside Europe, North America, and Japan. As such, it can't be an argument against the Tibetan plateau specifically, if it's good advice applicable to expedition travel in general. For instance, should we think it no longer important to design expedition vehicles to withstand Sahara heat, just because it's best to cross the Sahara in a group of at least two vehicles, and preferably more? So better not to cross the Sahara at all?

In short agreed, yes, it's best to cross the Tibetan plateau with company, and even more important to boondock on the plateau with company. But nonetheless, it's also a valid design objective to try to configure a globally capable motorhome such that lack of heat at 15,000 feet won't be the occupants' primary worry when crossing Tibet.

As for "miserable": again, not everyone is "miserable" at high altitudes. Some of us actually love it....:sombrero:

Conversely, some people get altitude sickness as low as 7,000 feet, and feel nauseous in Sante Fe, New Mexico. Should we then conclude that everyone must be miserable at 10,000 feet? Those who are in good health, who are well-experienced with altitude, who are not genetically susceptible to altitude sickness, and who ascend slowly, may never experience altitude sickness even once in their lives, no matter how many times they take part in treks that reach 18,000 feet, 22,000 feet, or more.... Remember, the Everest base-camp is a very popular trekking-destination in Nepal, and lies at 17,600 feet -- see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Everest_Base_Camp . If everyone were miserable above 14,000 feet, there should be no market for Everest base-camp treks.

The bottom line is that it is not medically understood why some people get altitude sickness, and others do not. Those who get it then sometimes assume that everyone must be miserable above 14,000 feet, but it just ain't so....

I'm a mischievous sort, so thought I'd entertain you with a few “horror videos” (from your perspective?) of some of my mountaineering comrades happily climbing Everest without oxygen:


[video=vimeo;42687933]http://vimeo.com/42687933[/video] [video=youtube;RKz08YcbdoY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKz08YcbdoY  [/video]

All best wish,



Biotect
 
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DiploStrat

Expedition Leader
Who's miserable?

Altitude sickness is an odd beast. Some of us suffer more than others, but everyone feels the effect of reduced oxygen. Research the reduced brain function of several famous climbers. Ouch!

As noted before, fitness does not always correlate to altitude ability. In my experience, older, overweight women often suffer less than young, fit men. And remember, there is a tremendous difference between an ascent of a few days or weeks and years of living at altitude. I have done both.

My first brush with altitude sickness was actually as a teen in East Java. Was climbing a volcano and began pitching. Being a typical tropic rat, I assumed it was some form of dysentery; only later did I realize that as there were no gastric upsets, that it was altitude. My next brush with altitude was on my first drive to Bolivia, but it passed quickly and I had no further symptoms, even at well above 15,000 feet. Yet, on a later trip to Quito, only 10,000 feet, I had to go to the hospital. But then had no symptoms for the six weeks that I worked there. And most recently, despite not having been at altitude since 2001, I topped 12,000 feet without noticing it at all. (I was amazed.)

An Aymara friend, born and raised at altitude, traveled with us to Venezuela, just around 3,000 feet. After three years she said that she had to go home; she was afraid that if she stayed at low altitude any longer, she would never be able to ascend again. I once took a team of Serranos from La Paz to Santa Cruz, Bolivia and half of them were useless for 24 hours until they adjusted to the low altitude.

"Misery" is not a reason not to climb; I have met many alpinists who feel every foot they climb, but they climb anyway. The real show stoppers for altitude are sickle trait anemia and pulmonary edema; you can't simply tough your way out of those two.

But to get back to your original question(s):

-- You can certainly heat your camper at 15,000 feet, even if you simply idle the engine all night.
-- You can certainly cook at 15,000 feet; in the worst case, use an induction stove which is not altitude sensitive at all.
-- Anecdotal evidence indicates that modern diesel appliances, like the Webasto Dual Top, will work at well above 10,000 feet.

The Sahara is a fair analogy. While many folks will run an air conditioner during the day while driving, fewer would expect to run it all night without a genset. (My truck can probably do it on batteries, but that is another discussion.) My point is that in the extremes - the Sahara (in summer; it's bloody cold in winter), the Amazon, the Altiplano, etc., it is reasonable to expect that your climate control may provide less than 100% performance and that you may have to fall back on clothing/sleeping bags, or, in the case of heat, no clothing and a hammock. :)

Methinks that you are overthinking the altitude angle a bit; it is an issue, but not a show stopper for your goal of a round the world motor home.

To your point about traveling alone; I have never traveled with another vehicle or with official support. My only point is that either of these two will make a trip much easier. For example, with two vehicles and two or four strong adults, it may be practical to pitch a heavy tent every night. With only one or two adults in a single vehicle, that may quickly become too much work. Similarly, the spare parts load for two or more similar vehicles is not much larger than that needed for a single vehicle, making the additional weight much lower when spread across multiple vehicles.
 
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nick disjunkt

Adventurer
I'm not sure if it was altitude related, but our Webasto Thermo 50 coked up a lot quicker than I expected.

We use it for one hour every morning to fill the calorifier with hot water, and have occasionally run it for extended periods to heat the radiators up and give us warmth.

We are now in Colorado and have spent the last few weeks mostly above about 8,000 feet. In telluride the unit started blowing a lot of white smoke out of the exhaust, and would shut own before it had heated up properly.

I expect that the unit prefers to run for longer than hour so that it can get seriously hot, but the altitude probably also played a part. If it is pumping too much fuel on each spurt, there was probably a build up of deposits from diesel that was not fully combusted. The fuel I use is probably not ideal either, about 50% old red diesel that I have had sat in plastic cans for a long time, and the rest Mexican fuel.

I took the burner out, and the chamber and burner itself were both full of black soot. The fins were barely distinguishable, and the burner had huge lumps of solid carbon deposits. I cleaned it out and reassembled it, and it now works perfectly again. I do not carry spare gaskets but I used copper silicone gasket goo for the burner and it seems to be working fine.

Disassembling the unit, cleaning it out, and putting it back together took less than an hour, but taking the unit out and recommissioning the system took about two further hours. I had to completely drain the antifreeze as the burner is the lowest point in the system, and then had to bleed the system again when I refilled it.

I guess the fact that the unit is fairly easy to disassemble and clean out it a plus for use in remote areas.
 

Leipo

New member
I had to completely drain the antifreeze as the burner is the lowest point in the system, and then had to bleed the system again when I refilled it.

I always carry 2 of these clamps:
full8363700.jpg


that way you can shut off the hoses near to the burner so you don't have to empty the complete system
(also usefull for all other hoses like fuel, etc.)

if you are using a fixed system (no hoses) then I would include 2 shut-of valves in the pipework
 

nick disjunkt

Adventurer
Hi Leipo,

Thanks for your advice. We spent the last 6 weeks in the mountains and the webasto coked up again. There maybe another issue like fuel contamination but I can soon test this as we are about to make our way across the plains at lower altitude.

At the hardware store I couldn't find any similar clamps but I used two Irwin quick clamps and they worked fine. It makes more mess this was as the coolant in the heater drains into the compartment, but it does cut the disassembly time down considerably.

The heater is working fine again now, I hope at lower altitude it stops coking up as I can't face disassembling again in 6 weeks!

Nick
 

Haf-E

Expedition Leader
I was discussing this with a friend and wondered if the Honda EI2000 inverter/generator works well at high altitudes? If so it might be a good option for powering a heater in North American applications due to the cost and limited availablility / service network for other options such as diesel cookstoves and hydronic heaters. Certainly easier to get a Honda gen fixed than other options. The trick would be figure out an easy way to capture some of the waste heat from the exhaust perhaps for space/water heating while its running in addition to the electricity produced.

I think they run carbs on them still - so that might be an issue at 12000 feet... Anybody know how well they work up high?
 

Haf-E

Expedition Leader
Found the answer myself - they offer "high altitude" jets for different altitudes - the highest I saw listed was 10,000 feet but a forum discussed operation at 12,000 feet as being acceptable.
 

nick disjunkt

Adventurer
I used our yanmar single cylinder diesel generator to power the electric water heater element when the webasto coked up again at 11,000 feet and it ran ok. It started rough, smoked a little, and was slightly down on power (wouldn't run the battery charger and immersion heater at the same time), but ran for the hour or so that I needed it
 

DiploStrat

Expedition Leader
Some Thoughts

We recently spend several weeks at altitude (http://diplostrat.org) from Santa Fe through Leadville and almost all of the same places as Nick.

-- Our Webasto Dual Top showed no signs of misbehavior. (Granted, I have not disassembled it to check for soot.) We did meet one camper running an Espar heater which he had plumbed to a kerosine tank. He had no problems at altitude and really liked that fact the kerosine ran so much cleaner. A thought.

-- With a truck as large as Jim, I would junk the generator and install the appropriate connections to the engine alternator(s) and a solar kit to charge a larger battery bank. This has worked for us.

Safe travels!
 

nick disjunkt

Adventurer
Wow, looking at your blog we've been visiting all of the same places over the last few weeks.

I'm now at 4,500 feet, and heading down into Nebraska, so I'll be able to see whether the coking was due to the altitude, or whether I have another problem over the next few weeks.

My auxillary tanks is 250 litres and I use it as a kind of emergency store of diesel. I guess I could try kerosene, but then I'd not be able to use it in the truck or generator.

I have a 550ah 24v Rolls battery bank charged by 800w of solar and through a split charge device from the 100a 24v truck alternator. The generator is more for emergency use and we've only used it about 4 times in the last 8 months. I ran the electric heater (1200w) off the inverter for a few days when the webasto coked up again, and the battery capacity suffered a little as a result (there was no sun and we weren't driving anywhere). The generator was used partly to recharge the batteries through the Victron charger, and partly to run the electric heater again.

When I get back I'm going to ditch the 100kg diesel generator and replace it with a lighter petrol generator which I can lift out and move away from the truck on the odd occasion that I need it.
 

DiploStrat

Expedition Leader
The gentleman fabricated a small (2 USG?) tank which actually fitted into his swing away spare tire carrier. Similarly, XPCamper use a separate diesel fuel tank for their Webasto Dual Tops, about 2 USG stored in the camper to allow the camper to be dismounted from the truck easily. Typically these devices don't use a lot of fuel, making a small auxiliary tank a reasonable choice.
 
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