Progressive Dynamics Mighty Mini setup

joeyabisa

Adventurer
Hi All, I have a PD Mighty Mini 45amp that I'm going to install in my Camper / Trailer build. I'd like to hear from the do-it-yourselfers that have installed theirs- Ease of setup, Distance from batteries, Battery cable size, What you're running on it- fridges, lights, electronics, etc.. Pictures would be super helpful if possible.
...

I am planning on running the mighty mini with a group 31 AGM Optima. Water pump, ARB 50 quart fridge, and interior lights will be the main use. Also charging a cell phone, I pad, and laptop. I don't have plans for solar panels at this time. I would also like to hear about rough estimates on times between recharging the battery (if you have a similar setup). Thanks!!
 
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DiploStrat

Expedition Leader
Some Quick Thoughts

-- Your ARB fridge is specced to consume between .7 and 2.6Ah - call it 40Ah per day. Your other loads are on top of that.

-- Your group 31 battery is specced at 75Ah. Assuming that you get a true deep cycle battery, that gives you 38Ah, call it 40Ah. (50% rule)

This would lead me to suggest that your battery is about 1/2 the size you need. You might well get better performance with a pair of 6v 100+ Ah batteries. As you are putting them in a trailer, you could save a lot of money by going with conventional unsealed batteries, assuming that you were willing to watch the water levels.

If you want to stay with an AGM and a single battery, this is about the smallest I would consider: http://www.lifelinebatteries.com/rvflyer.php?id=30

Beyond that, you need to look at your recharge program; shore power? Truck alternator? Solar? If you are talking about a trailer, I would guess that you are not going to drive every day and that the batteries are a L O N G way from your alternator. If you don't plan on shore power, I would look hard at a big solar array or a portable genset.

You could do worse than to start reading here:
http://handybobsolar.wordpress.com

As always, YMMV.
 
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wrcsixeight

Adventurer
The PD9245 is a good converter, but place it close to the battery(s) over short fat cabling to make sure it can do the 45 amps. I'd say 5 feet of 4awg is not overkill. Many would. In other forums many report this fat cabling was needed before the PD and other converters would go into boost mode of 14.4v. Thinner wires fooled the charger into thinking the battery was at a higher state of charge and it would do only 13.6.

I agree your battery capacity is about half, or even less than what you need. Laptops are big power consumers. Mine uses nearly 8A/h to fully recharge the battery, when turned off, and the laptop battery is probably only at 60% of capacity compared to when new.

I'm also not a fan of Optima in deep cycle applications. These Six pack/ Spiral cell batteries excel in high physical stress/ high vibration environments. A rectangular group 31 Lifeline will or Odyssey will have ~40 more amp hours to work with, and cost about the same and still be way more resistant to vibrations than any flooded battery. Don't fall for the six pack marketing. Many reports of more recently manufactured Optima's not being nearly as durable as what they grew their reputation on, a decade or more ago. Corner cutting has become prevalent in all aspects of all products, especially those which have had the time to developed good reputations with good products and now just rely on that, and clever marketing, and customer ignorance while cutting corners everywhere they can. It is the new normal. Maximum profit first and negate any deficiencies with clever marketing while finding other corners to cut. Baby needs a new diamond.

It is easier to use less electricity than to create enough to not have to worry about it.

Keep the ambient temps for the ARB as cool as possible and make sure the condenser can breathe freely. Use LED lights. Keeping a laptop fully charged will use less electricity than cycling the laptop battery and recharging it by another battery.

Charging most any battery with a high amp charger, is pretty quick from 50 to 80%. That 80 to 100% will take twice as long or longer. Reaching that true 100% weekly is important or the battery will suffer from progressive capacity loss until at some point it cannot meet your needs after a 10 days or more of not reaching 100%. It might respond well to a full 100% charge and then deliver near its full capacity after that, but more likely is that the capacity will be reduced much faster than it would be otherwise.

This progressive capacity is unnoticed by most until at some point their battery "no longer seems to take a charge". Before this point is reached most will assume their battery is just fine and proudly, yet ignorantly, state so. Those who have the tools and knowledge to monitor voltage and amp hours removed from the battery will notice the capacity loss and will not be surprised when the battery can no longer meet their needs, or when it might not be able to meet them half way through a future outing.

But in the end, batteries are just rented. Worrying about getting the most out of a battery might not be worth it, but prematurely killing it through ignorance, is to be avoided.

Always utilize all methods to keep the batteries at as high a state of charge as possible. Opportunistic charging leads to happier batteries .

Some good reading here:
http://www.usbattery.com/usb_images/charging_instruction_2011_3.pdf

But do not necessarily apply the charging algorithms to other brand batteries.

Always try and find the battery manufacturer recommendations as to bulk current and absorption and float voltages and try and find a charger which meets these specs.

If a particular battery does not have easily available recharging instructions, then I'd say to avoid that battery. While I think Deka makes a good battery, their Intimidator AGM series, rebranded and sold under other labels have little info available in this regard, and AGMs are picky and the voltages range much more across manufacturer than common knowledge would have one believe
 
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joeyabisa

Adventurer
Thanks Diplostrat and wrcsixeight for your knowledgeable responses. I'll read the links you guys have provided. I do have a honda eu2000 that i'll be bringing along. Unfortunately I already have the Optima group 31. Yes, my ignorance and their marketing was what "got me" at the time of purchase. Also, it's heavy as heck and I was too lazy to ship it back to Amazon. I did feel like I jumped the gun especially after reading (after purchase) that the Optima batteries quality had gone down. I am starting to think the optima would be better suited in my truck since that battery is starting to die anyway. and purchase 2 other batteries for my build. This will probably work out better for my truck situation considering I'm adding some more driving lights and working lights on the truck as well as a myriad of electronics that will be plugged in like gps, cb, phones, i-pad. Oh! and probably the ARB fridge while on the road. As for the camper/trailer, I'll have to rethink about where I will put the dual batteries if they won't fit in the original spot where the single optima was going. I have to measure again but I think if the 2 batteries are smaller they will fit The good thing is that there are a couple of places I can install the converter making it no farther than 5 feet away from the batteries in the couple of spots I'm thinking of putting them. I'm definitely going to install led lights in the camper. I do want to save money so I'll look into conventional unsealed batteries and I will definitely look into your suggestions and read up on the links you both have provided. Again, thank you!!
 

wrcsixeight

Adventurer
Thanks Diplostrat and wrcsixeight for your knowledgeable responses. I'll read the links you guys have provided. I do have a honda eu2000 that i'll be bringing along. Unfortunately I already have the Optima group 31. Yes, my ignorance and their marketing was what "got me" at the time of purchase. Also, it's heavy as heck and I was too lazy to ship it back to Amazon. I did feel like I jumped the gun especially after reading (after purchase) that the Optima batteries quality had gone down. I am starting to think the optima would be better suited in my truck since that battery is starting to die anyway. and purchase 2 other batteries for my build. This will probably work out better for my truck situation considering I'm adding some more driving lights and working lights on the truck as well as a myriad of electronics that will be plugged in like gps, cb, phones, i-pad. Oh! and probably the ARB fridge while on the road. As for the camper/trailer, I'll have to rethink about where I will put the dual batteries if they won't fit in the original spot where the single optima was going. I have to measure again but I think if the 2 batteries are smaller they will fit The good thing is that there are a couple of places I can install the converter making it no farther than 5 feet away from the batteries in the couple of spots I'm thinking of putting them. I'm definitely going to install led lights in the camper. I do want to save money so I'll look into conventional unsealed batteries and I will definitely look into your suggestions and read up on the links you both have provided. Again, thank you!!

The Optima in you truck, as a starting battery should be fine. The Yellow tops have high enough CCA ratings and the group 31 to my knowledge is their biggest. If you bought a red top, well those are not for deep cycle applications anyway.

In general 6 volt flooded golf cart batteries wired in series are the most bang for the buck and tolerate deep discharges very well and tolerate wider recharging currents. Just vent them properly to the exterior. Sams club and Costco have good prices on these batteries and users report good service from them. Wait until you are ready to put the batteries into service before buying them. You want to start with fresh batteries, not ones that have been sitting on a shelf for months, with in a store or your workshop . Their dimensions are :
http://www.trojanbatteryre.com/PDF/datasheets/T105_TrojanRE_Data_Sheets.pdf

Golf cart batteries are taller than the average battery, and will be in the 230 amp hour range wired in series for 12v. The converter can be further from the batteries, you just need fatter cabling. Be leery of Auto parts store cables with the steel ring terminals. The goal with thicker cabling is to minimize voltage drop and poor connections on proper thickness cabling defeats the purpose. Stereo shops can make you good cables, but other places can make high quality cables for you as well.
http://www.genuinedealz.com/custom-cables I've used this retailer and the cables arrived within a week.

Well made cables can maximize performance and prevent headaches later, especially in the presence of Flooded batteries and their corrosive charging fumes.

For the trailer, charging from the alternator while driving is wise, but it is not easy or cheap to get a lot of current to these batteries. Thicker copper cabling and a solid connector to feed the distant batteries is much better than relying on the 7 pin connector.

Another option is running an inverter off the engine battery to power the PD converter in the trailer. There is much less voltage drop concerns over AC wiring and a simple 12gauge household extension cord to the PD from the inverter will allow proper recharging currents.

The issue with this is that at idle speeds, the engine might not be spinning the alternator fast enough to entirely power the inverter and it will be robbing the engine battery to feed the trailer batteries. As the trailer batteries get to a higher state of charge the PD will require less current, it is only when the trailer batteries are depleted that the alternator might not be able to entirely power the inverter powering the PD in the trailer.

Goal is to arrive at someplace with fully charged batteries, and when they are low, to be able to get them as high as possible as soon as possible, because leaving them discharged for a long time is the best way to kill them.

A tool you will need is a good digital multimeter. Now that AC/DC clamp on Ammeters are affordable, this is a great option. Hook the clamp over one wire and it will tell you the current flowing through it, and knowing this figure is enlightening on many fronts. Regular Multimeters require the circuit be opened and for current flow through the meter for measurement, and are usually limited to 10 amps.

I've got a http://www.sears.com/craftsman-digital-clamp-on-ammeter/p-03482369000P and it agrees with my shunted meter pretty closely.

Also on the power saving front, type your laptop make and model into amazon electronics and add "car adapter". These DC to DC converters are much more efficient than using an inverter to power the original power brick. I have a PWR+ brand I got for 22$ 3 years ago. It uses anywhere from 15 to 50% less electricity than my inverter does to power the original power brick. It depends on the task the laptop is performing.
 

joeyabisa

Adventurer
Wow! Wrcsixeight, thank you for that wealth of information. You just saved me from a lot of research then taking the info I find and trying to wrap my head around it. It does seem that as I get older, the slower I get. I will look into the 6 volt batteries.

.
I already have an ac/dc clamp on ammeter which is good. I won't have to spend money there. Also recently purchased a new 250amp alternator which I haven't installed yet. If I remember correctly, it puts out 125amps at 600 rpm (idle).

.
I'm starting to get excited about putting it all together. This will be the first time I've done this and with the knowledge from you guys with experience, I feel more at ease going forward. Thanks a million. Meanwhile before I purchase more item,s I'll do somemore reading and research on the information you have given me.
 
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DiploStrat

Expedition Leader
Good Stuff!

Great information on a source for finished cables! Size matters in low voltage systems.

This link may also be useful: http://store.mechmanhighoutputalternators.com/voltage-control-modules/ If not abused, the correct one of these may be useful in assuring that the voltage at the end of your long wire is correct, especially if you have an older vehicle. Just don't get carried away and ramp things up too much for your starter battery and vehicle.

If you are on Facebook, you may want to look at the Mid-Atlantic Overland Society to hook up with some local folks.
 

wrcsixeight

Adventurer
125 amps at idle is pretty impressive for an alternator. Mine can't come close to that.

If true, you could mount an 800 watt MSW inverter near the Starter battery, and run a normal 12 awg 120 vAC household extension cord to the PD9245 in the trailer.

Compare this to the cost buying ~32 feet of 2 awg and a good connector that would likely be required to get 45 amps back to the trailer from the alternator to Aux batteries at that distance. It depends on what the voltage regulator allows, but the inverter powered PD might very easly charge trailer batteries more effectively. Even including the inefficiencies of the inverter. I am not sure how well the PD will handle a MSW inverter, I'd give their tech line a call before committing to this path. A true sine wave inverter big enough to power the pd9245 will be pretty pricey

I think the inverter powering a battery charger/ converter in the trailer is a very popular method in Australia.
 

joeyabisa

Adventurer
Great information on a source for finished cables! Size matters in low voltage systems.

This link may also be useful: http://store.mechmanhighoutputalternators.com/voltage-control-modules/ If not abused, the correct one of these may be useful in assuring that the voltage at the end of your long wire is correct, especially if you have an older vehicle. Just don't get carried away and ramp things up too much for your starter battery and vehicle.

If you are on Facebook, you may want to look at the Mid-Atlantic Overland Society to hook up with some local folks.


Great, I will look into one of these. I'm starting to see the big picture from front to rear and everything in between. Thanks for the link DiploStrat! I'll also look at the Mid-Atlantic Overland Society. I notice you're in Arlington, VA. You're just on the other side of the beltway from me. Perhaps we'll run into one another at some point.
 

joeyabisa

Adventurer
125 amps at idle is pretty impressive for an alternator. Mine can't come close to that.

If true, you could mount an 800 watt MSW inverter near the Starter battery, and run a normal 12 awg 120 vAC household extension cord to the PD9245 in the trailer.

Compare this to the cost buying ~32 feet of 2 awg and a good connector that would likely be required to get 45 amps back to the trailer from the alternator to Aux batteries at that distance. It depends on what the voltage regulator allows, but the inverter powered PD might very easly charge trailer batteries more effectively. Even including the inefficiencies of the inverter. I am not sure how well the PD will handle a MSW inverter, I'd give their tech line a call before committing to this path. A true sine wave inverter big enough to power the pd9245 will be pretty pricey

I think the inverter powering a battery charger/ converter in the trailer is a very popular method in Australia.


Yeah, I'm wondering how true the statement (125 amps at idle) is too. Wait! I just checked on what it said exactly. Here is what DB Electrical says on Amazon.com- "Under Full Load Conditions, amperage output at 600 engine rpm (idle) will peak at 125 Amps" I don't know what "Under full load" means and I guess it will "peak at 125 amps." To me that means it could possibly climb to 125 amps @ 600 rpm on that one perfect day at that one perfect moment, that one time. Here's the link- http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008R2TV26/ref=oh_details_o03_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I do like the idea of being able to run a 12 awg, extension cord to the trailer though. I already have the extension cord. :)
 
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wrcsixeight

Adventurer
While the alternator is claiming to be capable of delivering 125 amps at 600 engine rpm, this means that if you had 100 amps of draw, and the engine management system and any other loads like lights blower motor, and inverter together, asking for a total of 150 amps the alternator could provide at idle 125 amps.

125 amps at 600 rpm does not mean the alternator is always going to output 125 amps at 600 rpm, only that it is capable of making that much when fully fielded by the voltage regulator. I believe with GM the voltage regulator is internal to the alternator.

These ratings are usually established in a lab, when cold. An alternator making 125 amps will generate a lot of heat, and will not be able to continue to generate 125 amps when hot so it is best to be leery of ratings once it is super hot. Generally the stock charging circuit is not fat enough to pass this much current wither as copper is expensive and the bean counters and lawyers beat down the engineers.

Batteries basically will determine how much amperage they want at the voltage allowed. If you were able to feed them more, then their voltage will climb higher than desirable. So fatter cables between batteries and alternator can really allow depleted batteries to ask for everything they want.

As the batteries reach higher states of charge, they require less amps to hold the maximum allowed voltage. So lets say a pair of flooded deep cycle 6vGC batteries can accept 100 amps when depleted to 40% state of charge. This hundred amp number will taper fairly quickly and by the 75% charged rate will only require say 20 amps to hold 14.7 volts, at 90% charged they might require only 7 amps to hold 14.7.

I'm guestimating these numbers. They will vary widely depending on the specific battery, its health, state of charge and the length and thickness of alternator charging circuit and its connection quality, and the voltage regulators on different vehicles allow wider voltages brand to brand.

Just don't thing that the alternator is always providing it's max rating at any given rpm. If asked to deliver by hungry batteries and lots of loads like Light bars or winches, over cabling fat enough to pass it, then perhaps it will come close to its rating. but if the batteries are full, the lights and blower motor off, the alternator might only need to make 10 amps to power the fuel pump and ignition and engine computer and hold the battery at 14.x volts. or 13.x volts.
 

joeyabisa

Adventurer
In doing a little research on the 6 volt golf cart batteries I'm finding that people are the main cause of a battery's early death. I'm finding that keeping an eye on and maintaining the batteries properly is most important no matter what brand one purchases. Also I looked at the dimensions of the golf cart batteries and 2 will fit in the space I originally wanted the optima to be.
 

DiploStrat

Expedition Leader
How much at Idle?

There are at least three aspects to this issue:

-- What can your alternator(s) produce?

-- What can your wires deliver?

-- What do your batteries need?

Specifically, what does your starter battery need and what do your camper batteries need?

Right after engine start, your starter battery needs a heavy dose of current, but it won't need it for very long - starting takes a lot of amps, but only for a short time. Assuming a decent alternator/regulator, your truck should be able to handle this without difficulty. (Unless, of course, you have an old battery, an old alternator, a slipping belt, loose or bad connections, etc.)

The trick is that your camper batteries may need a lot of current as well. And a high enough voltage to get the batteries to accept that current. But your alternator will never "see" that demand if the cable between the starter battery and the camper battery is too small; it will cut back on the current as soon as the starter battery is recharged. Finally, in my case, for example, my camper battery, even at 50% discharge, is more than twice as large as my starter battery, so I often have current flowing back to front, especially if the sun is shining.

All of that said, the two 125A alternators on my 2013 Chevrolet easily produce a net charge of 150A at the camper batteries, at idle.
 

joeyabisa

Adventurer
The trick is that your camper batteries may need a lot of current as well. And a high enough voltage to get the batteries to accept that current. But your alternator will never "see" that demand if the cable between the starter battery and the camper battery is too small; it will cut back on the current as soon as the starter battery is recharged.

So what would be the best way to get the rear batteries charged? Thicker DC wiring to the rear or an inverter near the starting battery and running AC to the rear/to the Progressive Dynamics inverter/charger/distribution panel?
 

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