TerraLiner:12 m Globally Mobile Beach House/Class-A Crossover w 6x6 Hybrid Drivetrain

[campo]

Independent Suspension - "See it as innovative because it is not really common to use in heavy vehicles"

It may be different and curious to see systems that are not common, but unless they IMPROVE in some way on the older, more "primitive" systems - I would not call it INNOVATION. Also, even if a new system is truly innovative, it still has to be manageable in the selected environment...

I'd rather stick with "know-quality" portal-axles (live axles) and play with different locating rod geometry and air-suspension possibilities ...

.....
KINETIC SUSPENSION SYSTEMS also showed us what could be done with that in the '90s.
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For the Terraliner it would be a very interesting technology to use on the suspension - You can lower it to scratch the Highway clean or raise to get over that bump to avoid "turteling" or you can "level/lean" into a hill to traverse it! Your imagination is the limit!
But I still think that live/straight axles will have the advantage over independent suspension on the Terraliner....
Ride-comfort can be achieved EASY with Air or Hydro-Pneumatic....

Part of the ability of this System is to maintain the wheel-weight near constant throughout suspension travel - conventional suspension will increase the load on a compressed side and lose load on the extending one....
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thjakits

Thjakts
Concerning the KINETICS suspension:
In my personal opinion it is most important to disconnect the torsion bar stabilisator whilst driving in terrain.
The hydraulic coupling between 2 wheel shock absorbers is of minor influence.
Of course it is important that you can adapt the shock absorber pressure wilst driving (manualy or electronic)

I find no real arguments to use ridgit or portal axles for the Terraliner.
So I would still keep it with independent wheel suspension.
...
Of course whe agree on many other Terraliner components as there is the spaceframe.

Here you see the new Volvo independent front axle suspension.
Great news on the 2014 IAA and the prove that it's goiing the way we want Terraliner.
but the 4x4 is missing on the new Volvo.
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[campo]

Because the traction is missing on the Volvo front axle with independent wheel suspension I show you the one who has it !
Maybe the 4x4 driveline of this Dakar GINAF is a bit heavy for the Terraliner !
But without any doubts it is the right formula for the Terraliner (except some Hybrid).
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[thjakits]

Hey Campo,

"Concerning the KINETICS suspension:
In my personal opinion it is most important to disconnect the torsion bar stabilisator whilst driving in terrain.
The hydraulic coupling between 2 wheel shock absorbers is of minor influence.
Of course it is important that you can adapt the shock absorber pressure whilst driving (manually or electronic)"

You need to look in the VERY detail of the Kinetic Set-up!
Toyota only uses it for damping and sway-bar control - ...it seems.

The original system has NO springs (coil or leaf) - what looks like shocks IS shocks, springs all in one!
Have a look again at the Unimog with Kinetic Suspension - (if you look carefully you see that the typical Unimog coils are not there...)



"Because the traction is missing on the Volvo front axle with independent wheel suspension I show you the one who has it !
Maybe the 4x4 driveline of this Dakar GINAF is a bit heavy for the Terraliner !"

I think you just made the best argument AGAINST independent suspension and ALL FOR Rigid/Live Axle!!

a) The GINAF is obviously a RACE-machine and needs to go fast - that also implies that it won't go fast on REAL hard terrain.

b) Look again at the pics:

http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=250792

http://www.expeditionportal.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=250791

Especially the 2nd one shows me the general problem with OFF-ROAD and independent suspension:

Wheel goes up - CENTER of the chassis stays down - ready to hit the rocks!! With a solid axle at least the axle starts to rise as well!
Combine it with Kinetic and you get awesome grip and a level ride.....


...my opinion.



Now Bio needs to build 2 Terraliners - so we can proof each other wrong!! eepwall:


thjakits

 

[optimusprime]

6 wheel drive ...how about 6 wheel steer as well?
May as well throw another 'discussion' into the mix.....

 

[thjakits]

6 wheel drive ...how about 6 wheel steer as well?
May as well throw another 'discussion' into the mix.....

...might as well - now let's see what Bio decides on the lay-out:

All evenly spaced, or a lift axle behind/in-front of the drive axle, or tandem front-axles (both steering - all the hydro- motors on one end) and a rear-drive or evenly spaced .....

Need to evaluate all of the combinations - depending where the "power station" and the rest of the equipment is located.
If a lift axle is part of the game he needs to be careful with the weight, to stay legal with 2-axle GVW- and axle-limitations....

EDIT: HOWEVER, I think you have enough with 2 steered axles - at 9.5m long you really don't need AW-Steering......

thjakits

 

[Haf-E]

On the subject of steering - my favorite is the Tatra 6x6 setup where they start with an 8x8 and remove the rear most axle - so there are two closely spaced axles that steer (in front) and then one rear most axle at the rear. Of coarse, it does depend on the weight distribution - but in a lightly loaded truck with a heavy diesel engine in the front (like on a typical off road competition truck) the dual front axles support the weight better and give more steering control in some situations.

For a expo rig with more weight in the back - having the conventional setup of dual rear axles (non-steering) close together and then a single front axles probably makes the most sense.

Wit the lower price of the MAN 8x8 when sold by the german military - I am surprised more haven't just taken the fourth axle off and shortened the frame - of course there might be more to it then that - or perhaps its a registration / approvals issue with TUV?

 

[thjakits]

On the subject of steering - my favorite is the Tatra 6x6 setup where they start with an 8x8 and remove the rear most axle - so there are two closely spaced axles that steer (in front) and then one rear most axle at the rear. Of coarse, it does depend on the weight distribution - but in a lightly loaded truck with a heavy diesel engine in the front (like on a typical off road competition truck) the dual front axles support the weight better and give more steering control in some situations.

For a expo rig with more weight in the back - having the conventional setup of dual rear axles (non-steering) close together and then a single front axles probably makes the most sense.

Wit the lower price of the MAN 8x8 when sold by the german military - I am surprised more haven't just taken the fourth axle off and shortened the frame - of course there might be more to it then that - or perhaps its a registration / approvals issue with TUV?

Nice set-up, and I do like it - BUT then you can forget about a lift-axle - basically you need the 2 front (steering) axles to carry the weight located there....

I think Camo's idea (...or was it Bio's??) was to use 3 axles to reduce break-over angle in any given situation - BUT keep the weight to around 16 tons - use the 3rd axle "when needed".
Personally, I think for the the Terraliner spec list you don't need 3 axles unless you expect to pass legal weights.
When this thread was started I thought it would go towards an all out, new design 8x8 monster - but the Terraliner list condensed things quite a lot.
The MAN/KAT - Tatra - discussion is only a discussion point anymore, NOT a viable chassis for production IF you adhere to "The List"......
[Basically - it would not make any sense at all to use either...]

thjakits

 

[Haf-E]

I agree - just using the MAN and Tatra's as examples. With the flexibility of a diesel-electric or diesel-electric-hydraulic hybrid approach the frame could probably be just some straight rails with cross members where required connected to a space frame "cage" with the skin added - with lots of triangulation - similar to Rob Grays "Watdahellizat" build - except with the cab integrated.

...perhaps...

My only issue with having the cab fully integrated with the living area is the issue of security - both when parked and when using a roll-on/roll-off shipping - the inability to block the back area off makes it more likely that items will disappear. I thought of this today because I saw an van front type RV (Class C?) parked on a city street with the front passenger door window broken to gain entry. I suppose some type of folding door / partition could be made - even as a temporary measure for shipping - but for shorter stops in urban areas it would not be practical.

Any thoughts? Opinions? I like the designs with all of the rear windows "covered" when travelling - but if all it takes is popping the front then it doesn't seem worth it.

 

[thjakits]

...there is no reason why one could not built hard covers for the front-windows.
If Bio insists on his HUGE windows, he will need to provide some kind of protector for driving - might as well extend it for full protection when parked and away....
For the size of truck the Terraliner will be, in most countries you will need a commercial license - on most if not all Ro-Ro Ferries you will drive on yourself.
Drive your ride on, shut it - done.
If crane loaded - drive to the dock - shut it close and you got a "container"!

Hey Bio - think about providing hoisting points!! 4 of them! You might even provide 4 cables and an add-on option!


thjakits

 

[optimusprime]

If you go individual motor drive you could always add a facility to turn like a tank ....... Ok i'm going now ...........

 

[optimusprime]

Nice set-up, and I do like it - BUT then you can forget about a lift-axle - basically you need the 2 front (steering) axles to carry the weight located there....

I think Camo's idea (...or was it Bio's??) was to use 3 axles to reduce break-over angle in any given situation - BUT keep the weight to around 16 tons - use the 3rd axle "when needed".
Personally, I think for the the Terraliner spec list you don't need 3 axles unless you expect to pass legal weights.
When this thread was started I thought it would go towards an all out, new design 8x8 monster - but the Terraliner list condensed things quite a lot.
The MAN/KAT - Tatra - discussion is only a discussion point anymore, NOT a viable chassis for production IF you adhere to "The List"......
[Basically - it would not make any sense at all to use either...]

thjakits

As long as you use axles with the appropriate load rating,then there isn't an issue with the amount of axles.
My truck is 18ton gross weight, but only has 2 axles. Adding another axle doesn't increase or decrease the gross weight.
That is defined by the suspension,brakes and steering.
So a lifting axle shouldn't cause issues.

(I'm using the phrase 'axle' just for ease of writing)

 

[optimusprime]

...there is no reason why one could not built hard covers for the front-windows.

Hey Bio - think about providing hoisting points!! 4 of them! You might even provide 4 cables and an add-on option!


thjakits

Thats not actually a bad idea.
We've decided that Bio should build a spaceframe type structure, well if it was built so that it was also roll cage incorporated design for roll over protection, then why not having lifting points and lashing points in the design?
I mean not everywhere has the modern RoRo ports, but there are cranes nearly everywhere!

 

[thjakits]

.....another point for solid/live axles:

If you roam forums like pirate4x4 - you will see quite a few "solid axle"-conversions on vehicles that had independent suspension on the front.
Basically to get better ground clearance for off-roading.
Independent is great for road-driving comfort - not so much for off-roading.
A rig the size of the Terraliner - comfort comes from GOOD air suspension and live axle positioning - I don't think you will feel any difference to independent suspension. Furthermore if you use hydro drive on the non-main drive axles you can make it a semi-portal design to get the axle-cross tube way up into the body.
Remembering the last full-size rigs I drove - ALL had solid front axles (and drive axles), full air-suspension, cabin air-suspension and driver-seat air-suspension!
FLOATING!!!


thjakits

 

[egn]

Because the traction is missing on the Volvo front axle with independent wheel suspension I show you the one who has it !
Maybe the 4x4 driveline of this Dakar GINAF is a bit heavy for the Terraliner !
But without any doubts it is the right formula for the Terraliner (except some Hybrid).
.
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View attachment 250790
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View attachment 250791
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View attachment 250792
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View attachment 250793

Look how complicated all this is compared to a conventional axle setup:



The Terraliner will be no rally vehicle with a multi-million service crew behind. Such a complex suspension is very susceptible. Please look at the images with the rocks. This vehicle is more designed moving through soft terrain like sand, but not really for rocky terrain and deep mud.

Just one hit against the unprotected components may cause a total loss of function. Compared to this a broken spring or a malfunctioning shock absorber of a conventional suspension will still allow to move forward.

 

[thjakits]

If you go individual motor drive you could always add a facility to turn like a tank ....... Ok i'm going now ...........

Skid-Steer!! A new one for this size - no troublesome steering components - ....probably want to get a discounted contract with your favorite tire-shop!

thjakits:sombrero: