TerraLiner:12 m Globally Mobile Beach House/Class-A Crossover w 6x6 Hybrid Drivetrain

biotect

Designer
Hi dwh,

Yeah, that does seems a possibility. But I only wonder whether, if such tires actually do work, why they have not caught on more widely? As you suggest, the idea of non-pneumatic spring-loaded tires goes way back, to the 1970's and the lunar rover. And the idea probably goes back even further than this. But there are probably limitations in the materials, or in the cost of manufacture, that prevented these ideas from catching on.

Even still, certainly worth researching further.......

All best,


Biotect

PS -- If it is now standard practice to "means-test" the V.A. Medical for Purple Heart veterans of the Vietnam War, then the United States has really lost its sense of priorities. And I am saying this as someone who is European social-democrat center-left, and not even remotely right-wing. Just one query about the math. Even if he were 59 years old in 2014, that would make him 18 years old in 1973. The last American troops pulled out in 1975, so the "window" here is awfully tight -- see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War . So he's either in his very late 50's, or perhaps now in his early 60's?
 
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biotect

Designer
egn,

Here are some more images for MAN-KATs, participating in what appears to be the 2012 version of the same event that you just attended last weekend with Blue Thunder; an annual gathering of.....

"....Besitzer und Betreiber von MAN-KAT-Fahrzeugen aus Deutschland und BeNeLux auf ein äußerst kurzweiliges Wochenende in einer Kiesgrube in der rheinischen Knollensteppe."

Translation: ".....owners and operators of MAN KAT vehicles from Germany and Benelux for a very entertaining weekend in a gravel pit in the Rhenish Knoll-steppe." See http://www.hansebubeforum.de/showtopic.php?threadid=14838 and http://translate.google.co.uk/trans...ansebubeforum.de/showtopic.php?threadid=14838 :


KAT-09-8.jpg KT-10-2.jpg
img0143mp.jpg img0158yy.jpg KAT-09-3.jpg
14.jpg bmu83lqu170ej207z.jpg KT-10-1.jpg
11.jpg



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biotect

Designer
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09.jpg 13.jpg 12.jpg
KT-10-3.jpg 10.jpg


The following seems to be the video of the same event, also from 2012:


[video=youtube;U5waVBWY3_s]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5waVBWY3_s&list=PLnKMsB8cYzRG50eazHLbEd8n XCspkqioJ&index=35[/video]



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biotect

Designer
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Next, here are some photo-galleries of the larger expedition vehicles that appeared at Abenteuer Allrad in 2009 and 2010, most of them MAN civilian truck conversions:


[video=youtube;75m_eXfBBIc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75m_eXfBBIc&index=2&list=PLnKMsB8cYzRG50ea zHLbEd8nXCspkqioJ[/video] [video=youtube;Z99yxOCxIV0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z99yxOCxIV0&index=22&list=PLnKMsB8cYzRG50e azHLbEd8nXCspkqioJ[/video]


And here are two videos of Abenteuer Allrad in 2013, that tend in the same direction (i.e. towards larger vehicles), even though they are not labeled as such:


[video=youtube;1UvDlUjIVRk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1UvDlUjIVRk [/video]

The following are good videos of MAN KAT 6x6s; videos that (as far as I know) have not yet been posted in this thread:


[video=youtube;C7D1piwTgUM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7D1piwTgUM&index=27&list=PLnKMsB8cYzRG50e azHLbEd8nXCspkqioJ[/video]
[video=youtube;oLWcfwKyOSo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLWcfwKyOSo&index=15&list=PLnKMsB8cYzRG50e azHLbEd8nXCspkqioJ[/video] [video=youtube;YJEs7MBukdE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJEs7MBukdE&list=PLnKMsB8cYzRG50eazHLbEd8n XCspkqioJ&index=7[/video]



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biotect

Designer
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[video=youtube;UZnB4mvhgsA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZnB4mvhgsA&list=PLhxUsuZyNwxwo44MTziHOuFz kJ2J0woyS&index=59[/video]
[video=youtube;D6sL8nuNTRY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6sL8nuNTRY&list=PLEAE9FCE044DFE496&am p;index=30[/video] [video=youtube;cC2xAt4TgDs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cC2xAt4TgDs&list=PLEAE9FCE044DFE496&index= 22[/video]
[video=youtube;2mSfqdt06FM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2mSfqdt06FM&index=24&list=PLEAE9FCE044DFE4 96 [/video]


For many, many more great videos of MAN-KAT 6x6s driving through all kinds of crazy conditions, see the superb YouTube playlist at http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLEAE9FCE044DFE496 . This playlist should be renamed “The ultimate MAN-KAT 6x6 playlist”.

Not all of the videos are totally terrific. Here are my favorites, roughly in order : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oK62clDmZpc , http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-hPbJqvJDA&index=6&list=PLEAE9FCE044DFE496 , http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxTobE4nOHw&list=PLEAE9FCE044DFE496&index=31 , http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltgKelz9IRU&index=32&list=PLEAE9FCE044DFE496 , http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyGRrrI_8qk&list=PLEAE9FCE044DFE496&index=29 , http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgwSx2-vDtc&index=27&list=PLEAE9FCE044DFE496 , http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GyNASIBRTOk&index=20&list=PLEAE9FCE044DFE496 , http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEGfu_nxhbw&list=PLEAE9FCE044DFE496&index=8 , http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0x-kaHvTUFM&index=33&list=PLEAE9FCE044DFE496 , http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mjo6SNxdjYI&list=PLEAE9FCE044DFE496&index=19 , http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJ4o4W0eLyw&index=16&list=PLEAE9FCE044DFE496 , http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KN_9J--F02U&index=11&list=PLEAE9FCE044DFE496 , http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtNfnwZaRTA&index=9&list=PLEAE9FCE044DFE496 , and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F3KlwKfKS5Q&list=PLEAE9FCE044DFE496&index=34 . Note that while all of these videos feature MAN-KAT 6x6s, the vehicles are not necessarily carrying campers in back.

Next, here is as video of what looks to be a very complicated tire-change on a HEMMT 8x8 conversion:


[video=youtube;mijKiJ2wP6M]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mijKiJ2wP6M&index=10&list=PLnKMsB8cYzRG50e azHLbEd8nXCspkqioJ[/video]


Definitely a level of complexity that one wants to avoid. If a vehicle like this needs this amount of outside support just to change a tire, then clearly, it's not “really” off-road suitable for just a couple who wants to travel some bad roads, like the Canning Stock Route.


For a particularly good YouTube playlist of Expedition Motorhomes, one that concentrates on the larger vehicles, see https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLnKMsB8cYzRG50eazHLbEd8nXCspkqioJ .


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biotect

Designer
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Next, here is a very beautiful, high-resolution (1080p) Tatra 815 8x8 promotional video that I recently came across:




And finally, just for fun, here are some videos of an 8x8 Tatra motorhome conversion of sorts, which seems to be owned by the Morroccan adventurer Reda Taoujni – see http://m.bhojpurinama.com/trendspla...-Vrs-Caterpillar966-Morocco-(By-Reda-Taoujni) , http://m.bhojpurinama.com/trendsplay/2fYc4UY-ZFo/Reda-Taoujni-en-flyboard-à-Agadir-Morocco , http://www.dragtimes.com/video-viewer.php?v=X7s0jheZACk&feature , http://www.dragtimes.com/video-viewer.php?v=9Ja6JIR1KQc&feature , and https://www.facebook.com/agadiradventure?directed_target_id=0 .

First, his Tatra (trying) to do recovery on another vehicle; and second, his Tatra being recovered. In the last two videos, Reda flies:


[video=youtube;-A-VUnWigL0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-A-VUnWigL0 [/video] [video=youtube;8_LkApf7xRo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_LkApf7xRo [/video]


Now back to tires.....:)

All best wishes,


Biotect
 
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Orlov

New member
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Hi Orlov,

Interesting observation.

Would you know of any other manufacturers, besides Hutchinson, who makes military-grade tire-protection shields? Perhaps a European manufacturer?

And, would you know of any manufacturers who make tire-protection shields out of Kevlar?

RUD also makes something like this, but their system does not seem as "military grade" as Hutchinson's -- see http://www.sidewall-protection.com and http://www.rud.com/Filestore.aspx/R...b26-92bd-2d7b2dff3df2&lang=none&filetype=file . And RUD's system seems designed more for the absolutely huge tires used by the mega-sized vehicles that work in quarries, on mining sites, etc:


View attachment 246952

Biotect

From a couple of years back, all of a sudden every manufacturer of military vehicles had the Hutchinson Tire Saver Shield on their vehicles at exhibitions.
I have not seen any other manufacturers, but as Hutchinson is marketing their system for school buses and trucks, buying a set should not be too difficult.

As for Kevlar shields, I highly doubt they exist but in the minds of someone trying to charge more for parts for the overloaded, useless, museum piece called Kiravan.
Why would you make something from Kevlar when rubber is as effective?

The RUD system looks fine on a off-highway dump truck, but too complicated with all the parts to be useful on an expedition vehicle. Keep it simple, like a one piece system like Hutchinsons.
 
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dwh

Tail-End Charlie
Hi dwh,

Yeah, that does seems a possibility. But I only wonder whether, if such tires actually do work, why they have not caught on more widely?

According to Michelin - it's a regulatory obstacle:


[video=youtube;eGoPN-QSblk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=eGoPN-QSblk[/video]




PS -- If its now standard practice to "means-test" the V.A. Medical for Purple Heart veterans of the Vietnam War, then the United States has really lost its sense of priorities.

One of my pet peeves (among many) is the way that people tend to generalize; for instance referring to "the U.S." (or any country) when what they are actually talking about is that country's leaders, or as I like to think of them, The Lord and Masters, or The Mandarins.

Trust me on this, when they decided to means test veterans in order to cheat them out of their benefits, it wasn't on any voting ballot that *I* got to punch a hole in. The congress - according to FDR, a tool of the American Mandarins - wouldn't dare put it to a referendum. But again, this is nothing new...


"Recent events have proved that the paper-money system of this country may be used as an engine to undermine your free institutions, and that those who desire to engross all power in the hands of the few and to govern by corruption or force are aware of its power and prepared to employ it. ...

...But when the charter for the Bank of the United States was obtained from Congress it perfected the schemes of the paper system and gave to its advocates the position they have struggled to obtain from the commencement of the Federal Government to the present hour. ...

...We are not left to conjecture how the moneyed power, thus organized and with such a weapon in its hands, would be likely to use it. The distress and alarm which pervaded and agitated the whole country when the Bank of the United States waged war upon the people in order to compel them to submit to its demands can not yet be forgotten. The ruthless and unsparing temper with which whole cities and communities were oppressed, individuals impoverished and ruined, and a scene of cheerful prosperity suddenly changed into one of gloom and despondency ought to be indelibly impressed on the memory of the people of the United States." [emphasis added - dwh]

-- excerpts from Andrew Jackson's farewell address


"The real truth of the matter is, as you and I know, that a financial element in the large centers has owned the government of the U.S. since the days of Andrew Jackson." [emphasis added - dwh]

-- FDR in a private letter to Ed "Colonel" Houseman, from: FDR, His Personal Letters, 1928-1945




And I am saying this as someone who is European social-democrat center-left, and not even remotely right-wing. Just one query about the math. Even if he were 59 years old in 2014, that would make him 18 years old in 1973. The last American troops pulled out in 1975, so the "window" here is awfully tight -- see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War . So he's either in his very late 50's, or perhaps now in his early 60's?

Yea, you must have been writing that while I was correcting my post. I hit the 5 key by mistake instead of the 6 and when I noticed it I fixed it. AFTER I had already carefully proofread it before I posted it...

Proofreading my own stuff is always a problem, since no matter how carefully I do it, I have an innate tendency to somehow skim right over the original goofs. Mostly, I don't notice ALL the screwups until after I've waited a while (cleared the palette so to speak) and then re-read it.
 

biotect

Designer
From a couple of years back, all of a sudden every manufacturer of military vehicles had the Hutchinson Tire Saver Shield on their vehicles at exhibitions. I have not seen any other manufacturers, but as Hutchinson is marketing their system for school buses and trucks, buying a set should not be too difficult.

As for Kevlar shields, I highly doubt they exist but in the minds of someone trying to charge more for parts for the overloaded, useless, museum piece called Kiravan. Why would you make something from Kevlar when rubber is as effective?

The RUD system looks fine on a off-highway dump truck, but too complicated with all the parts to be useful on an expedition vehicle. Keep it simple, like a one piece system like Hutchinsons.


Hi Orlov,

I was only asking about alternatives, because it does not seem like a good idea for any one company to have a monopoly on anything. Prices are kept low not necessarily by simplicity, but rather, by competition. A Kevlar version may or may not cost more. It will also depend on how many manufacturers are making it, and whether competition encourages the innovation in production practices that lead to lower costs and lower prices. The cost of carbon fiber, for instance, has dropped radically in recent years, because so much new capacity has come on line. Same with thin-film solar. Sure, there is also the "Chinese low wage factor", but that can be used as a sour-grapes excuse only so far. And China is not that low-wage anymore, especially not when one considers wages relative to productivity.

So a Kevlar tire-protection shield may not cost that much more; from a design point of view, it could be just as simple; and it might provide even better protection than an all-rubber shield. After all, if Kevlar could not deliver better protection, then why are tire manufacturers like Goodyear selling "Kevla- belted" tires? Tires which, as near as I can tell, are getting rave reviews?

Furthermore, note that Goodyear is selling Kevlar tires not as a replacement for rubber, but rather, as a way to reinforce rubber even better than the older layer of nylon cords did. So when I say "Kevlar tire protection shield", what this probably actually means, in practice, is a shield that is made out of rubber (like Hutchinson), but reinforced with Kevlar.

In any case I like options, and even if Hutchinson's solution will "work", it's good to research and learn about alternatives. And as I stated earlier in the thread, even if Hutchinsons has a monopoly on tire-protection shields within the United States, I very much doubt that there no European competition exists. I very much doubt that Hutchinsons has a worldwide monopoly for military-grade tire-protection shields that have simple designs.

All best wishes,


Biotect
 
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dwh

Tail-End Charlie
Sure, there is also the "Chinese low wage factor", but that can be used as a sour-grapes excuse only so far. And China is not that low-wage anymore, especially not when one considers wages relative to productivity.

Right, but Star Tire of India is the largest tire company in the world today - and wages in India ARE still that low:

http://www.asiabriefing.com/news/2013/07/comparison-minimum-wages-in-china-and-india/


ChIndMinWage.jpg


Two dollars a day. Three if you're lucky.



Lately, the U.S. tire company Cooper Tire was sold to Star Tire. The news (propaganda machine) in the U.S. said that the stockholders of Star Tire offered a really good price for the stock, and so the stockholders of Cooper tire had to take the deal. But, they continued, of course it was a bit of a bummer that those profits would go to India and not the U.S. (refer to my previous post about my pet peeve of generalizing in such a fashion).

I noted in another post somewhere here on ExPo that according to Morningstar.com, the majority stockholders for both Cooper Tire and Star tire were the same guys - Fidelity, Vanguard and Blackrock investment groups. So they just changed the stock from their right pocket to their left - the profits still go to the American Mandarins - and the only thing they really accomplished was to reduce the labor cost by putting American workers out on the street.

Which was of course, the goal. Mission accomplished.

And people don't seem to understand WHY the U.S. economy is in the toilet.
They just can't believe that it's deliberate.
 

biotect

Designer
According to Michelin - it's a regulatory obstacle:


[video=youtube;eGoPN-QSblk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=eGoPN-QSblk[/video]

dwh,

Once again, I have to thank you. It's a concept vehicle, after all, so some of the drawings should feature "tweels". Or, the vehicle should be designed such that "tweels" could be easily attached in future. I will still calculate measurements in terms of XZL 14.00 and 16.00 R20 tires; but in some concept drawings, will use tweels.

Just one question: how do tweels do in sand? The miracle of beadlock pneumatic tires is that they can significantly deflate and thereby massively expand their available "footprint" on the ground, reducing average pressure per square cm on the sand. So I wonder whether tweels could be designed somehow to have similar capability? But if not, would it still make sense to use super-wide tweels, just for the 5 % of the time one might be driving over very soft sand?

But again, many thanks.

I owe you two.


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As for American elites, I agree. But I did not want to say it here, not in this forum. Elites can be responsible or irresponsible, and as you suggest, in a large democracy they will not necessarily be "responsive" to voters' wishes.

Let me put the matter the following way. Here is the second video again about the German Mittelstand, in which Nicola Leibinger-Kammüller, President & Chairwoman of "Trumpf", talks about how she hated the idea of laying off employees during a downturn:




Also see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trumpf . The interview with Ms. Leibinger-Kammüller is about 5 minutes, 30 seconds into the video.

It turns out that she did not have to lay off any of her employees, because of a German program called "Kurzarbeit" -- see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Short_time , http://www.rttnews.com/1296996/kurzarbeit-a-german-achievement.aspx , http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurzarbeit , and http://translate.google.co.uk/translate?hl=en&sl=de&tl=en&u=http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurzarbeit . That, coupled with a good history of union/management relations, and union representation in corporate decision making or "co-determination", made it possible for Trumpf to reach an equitable agreement in which all employees accepted a small, temporary cut in total pay, about 5 %. Along with much shorter working hours, with supplementary skills training off-site. For Germany's practice of co-determination, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Co-determination . And because Trumpf was able to reach such a mutually beneficial agreement with its employees, when the recession ended and orders suddenly boomed, Trumpf was able to increase production by over 50 % in less than a year, something generally unheard of. Why? Well, because it still had all that labor on tap. So Trumpf cleaned up in a seller's market, once the economy turned.

This is very, very smart industrial policy. But it requires lots of actors to work in concert; it requires a long history of employee-management co-operation; and it requires lots of trust on all sides. It also requires complete transparency. Notice how following the interview with Nicola Leibinger-Kammüller, an ordinary employee states that everyone knew what the company's financial figures were, and how much trouble the company was in. Why did all of Trumpf's employees know this? Well, because of co-determination: mandatory works councils by law must fully participate in management decision-making, and they must have full access to the company's books. So even though Trumpf is a privately owned, family business, Trumpf cannot hide very much from its employees, and it cannot exploit them and take them for a ride.

Now there is no question that if elites are irresponsible and greedy, and if they feel no solidarity with employees, then such a system simply will not work. Elites will prevent the passage of laws mandating German-style works councils, for instance. But so too, employees have to be responsible "stakeholders" in the system.

Anyway, I cannot write here a sentence something to the effect,

"It was my general impression when I lived in the United States, that American elites have completely lost their sense of noblesse oblige, their sense of solidarity with employees whose labor is so critical to American economic success."

I've already said more than enough about the difference between LME (liberal market economy) versus CME (collaborative market economy) countries on page 43, in posts #429 and #430. So probably best to stop here.

In short, my apologies if it seemed like I was generalizing. My apologies if it seemed like I was suggesting that all Americans are equally responsible for the direction that the United States has taken over the last 40 years. I do not think anything of the sort. In fact, like you dwh, I very much hold America's elites morally, politically, and economically responsible. But I did not want to get too specific. So what you read as a generalization, was actually me trying to be evasively vague and euphemistic.

No doubt I will get "fried" for stating so clearly what I just wrote....:eek:

Back to tires?

All best wishes,



Biotect
 
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dwh

Tail-End Charlie
Haha!

Getting "fried" is all part of the game. :D An old saying the U.S. - "If you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen!"

Me...I LIKE the heat!


As for those tweens (o_O) in sand. Well, using my immense imaginative capability to intellectually model the fluid dynamics of the situation...it seems to me like they would dig a very nice hole.
 

dwh

Tail-End Charlie
Hrmmm...

Just had an idea. Probably a very BAD idea. :D

Just make the Swiss Cheese tire run right across from one side to the other. No worries about ground clearance, and your pounds per square inch would probably end up being a negative number.

In other words - two 8' long tubes. [EDIT: Well, three I suppose...]

Yes yes...I know...rolling resistance. Who cares? It's a concept, dammit!


[EDIT Again: But HOW would you turn the stupid thing?]







Gotta run. Might be another week before I'm here again. Have fun!
 
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optimusprime

Proffessional daydreamer.
Hrmmm...

Just had an idea. Probably a very BAD idea. :D

Just make the Swiss Cheese tire run right across from one side to the other. No worries about ground clearance, and your pounds per square inch would probably end up being a negative number.

In other words - two 8' long tubes. [EDIT: Well, three I suppose...]

Yes yes...I know...rolling resistance. Who cares? It's a concept, dammit!


[EDIT Again: But HOW would you turn the stupid thing?]







Gotta run. Might be another week before I'm here again. Have fun!

In that case,just use tank tracks, or go completely mad,just use a hovercraft.....
 

egn

Adventurer
If anyone reading this thinks that it seems mistaken, please feel to counter-argue. But as this thread has developed, and as

There may be some truth in your thesis, but it doesn't match my background. In the army I was in a unit that did survey for multiple missile launch system. I wasn't driver of a KAT, but was sometimes commander of transports of KAT 1 8X8 used for transport tasks. Especially in winter time, when most of the exercises were done, we had a chance to check what was possible with the 8x8. With snow chains we climbed hills, that seemed impossible to climb, especially under winter conditions. In other situations, where I wasn't directly involved, multiple KAT 8x8 rescued tanks. In our battery Kat 1s were also used for the missile launcher and for the fire command unit.

After nearly 30 years we had the idea to buy an off-road vehicle. The KAT was on our shortlist, but if it would have been easier to get a KAMAZ or a TATRA, we may have ended with one of these. The reason was mainly that we like eastern Europe and Central Asia very much. It is a large open unoccupied space that can be traveled without much hassle and using a ferry. But problems to register a Kamaz or find a reasonable priced Tatra 815, was to much of a hassle.

I was registered in the original KAT Forum for a long time, just for interest. So I finally came back to the KAT. Once I saw one in good condition for a good price, I bought it. At this time I didn't even have a drivers license for it. But within 6 weeks both my wife and me got the license. After the build the first large trip was to Russia, and after driving more than 60.000 km in all kind of terrain I have fairly good understanding what is possible with this travel vehicle and what not. I am very careful where I drive into and the result was that we never got stuck, but are regularly rescue other vehicles. As BT is a substantial investment with the cost of a house, it just makes no sense to risk anything, when not absolute necessary. It will be our home may be for 10 - 20 years, and my wife will kill me, if I put it at risk without any good reason.

This doesn't mean that we don't use it off-road, but only in situations were we (my wife :sombrero:) wants to reach a great camp site. I.e, we were in Albania this year and we wanted to go up the Valbona valley. In the last few km this is possible only by going up the through the river bed. This was very hard on the tires and you had to be very careful to find the best path, but we finally managed it and found a great camp site.

20140820_182921_2600.JPG

The river bed consists of pebble stones. There is a temporary track up to small villages that can be driven by off-road vehicles, but when you want to go to other locations you have to drive off-track.

20140822_100706_2683.JPG20140820_175128_Räder.jpg

The result on the tires can be seen in the last image.

We also rescued a 40 metric t truck that was stranded at a 12 % hill without any problem.

20140807_123514_Abschleppen.jpg

Coming back to your thesis:
I think the main factor for the relatively large KAT Community is the low price. You can now get 4x4 for less than 5000 Euro, 8x8 less than 15.000 Euro and 6x6 for less then 20.000 Euro.
 
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