TerraLiner:12 m Globally Mobile Beach House/Class-A Crossover w 6x6 Hybrid Drivetrain
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But as one moves through the "Photo Bucket" record of these Chinese motorcyclists on the G-219, what surprises most is just how much of the G-219 is paved, smooth, and in perfect condition:
Again, see from http://s1169.photobucket.com/user/peterzhaosy/media/DSC02081.jpg.html to http://s1169.photobucket.com/user/peterzhaosy/media/L1065272.jpg.html .
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But as one moves through the "Photo Bucket" record of these Chinese motorcyclists on the G-219, what surprises most is just how much of the G-219 is paved, smooth, and in perfect condition:
Again, see from http://s1169.photobucket.com/user/peterzhaosy/media/DSC02081.jpg.html to http://s1169.photobucket.com/user/peterzhaosy/media/L1065272.jpg.html .
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biotect
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These Chinese motorcyclists seem to have travelled 40,000 km, whereas the Pyles travelled only about 18,000 km -- see http://canadamotoguide.com/2011/03/22/long-way-for-a-guinness/ . This suggests that there is "circumnavigation", and then there is "real circumnavigation". The border of a country or a continent can be defined different ways, yielding different measurements in km. If you measure every possible indent down to a millimeter, the border length increases exponentially. Similarly, if you drive secondary roads closer to a country's actual border, instead of primary roads more distant from it, your circumnavigation will be longer.
These Chinese motorcyclists, for instance, seem to have taken many rough-gravel sideroads that ran near the border with Nepal. Among other locations, like the Pyle Brothers, they visited the Mount Everest (or "Mount Qomolangma") base camp on the Chinese side:
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These Chinese motorcyclists seem to have travelled 40,000 km, whereas the Pyles travelled only about 18,000 km -- see http://canadamotoguide.com/2011/03/22/long-way-for-a-guinness/ . This suggests that there is "circumnavigation", and then there is "real circumnavigation". The border of a country or a continent can be defined different ways, yielding different measurements in km. If you measure every possible indent down to a millimeter, the border length increases exponentially. Similarly, if you drive secondary roads closer to a country's actual border, instead of primary roads more distant from it, your circumnavigation will be longer.
These Chinese motorcyclists, for instance, seem to have taken many rough-gravel sideroads that ran near the border with Nepal. Among other locations, like the Pyle Brothers, they visited the Mount Everest (or "Mount Qomolangma") base camp on the Chinese side:
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biotect
Designer
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But it is unclear whether these Chinese motorcyclists actually did traverse more km than the Pyle brothers.
Of course, these Chinese motorcyclists had all the time in the world: the duration of their circumnavigation was not constrained by the length of a visa. One of the Pyle brothers had been living in China for years, working as a photojournalist, so presumably his travel time was equally unconstrained? But the other Pyle brother was completely new to China, and indeed foreign travel more generally, so his visa was probably different.
The official website of the Chinese motorcyclists is at http://blog.sina.com.cn/harleydavidson2012 , but it is in Chinese.
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6. More Images of the G-219
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There is also a terrific G-219 photogallery at https://www.flickr.com/photos/nalati_1/sets/72157602909120777/ , but none of the photos are downloadable.
By far the most exhaustively detailed photographic record of the G-219 that I've been able to find on the web so far, is a sequence of pages that document the highway as travelled Lhasa to Ngari to Kashgar, in 2012, by Toyota Landcruiser: http://www.yaohua2000.org/2012/20120926/en-1.html , http://www.yaohua2000.org/2012/20120926/en-2.html , http://www.yaohua2000.org/2012/20120926/en-3.html , http://www.yaohua2000.org/2012/20120926/en-4.html , http://www.yaohua2000.org/2012/20120926/en-5.html , http://www.yaohua2000.org/2012/20120926/en-6.html , http://www.yaohua2000.org/2012/20120926/en-7.html , and http://www.yaohua2000.org/2012/20120926/en-8.html . Many of the images on these pages are worth reposting, because they make a number of useful points relevant to this thread. If I have time, a bit further along I will try to repost an edited version of this sequence.
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But it is unclear whether these Chinese motorcyclists actually did traverse more km than the Pyle brothers.
Of course, these Chinese motorcyclists had all the time in the world: the duration of their circumnavigation was not constrained by the length of a visa. One of the Pyle brothers had been living in China for years, working as a photojournalist, so presumably his travel time was equally unconstrained? But the other Pyle brother was completely new to China, and indeed foreign travel more generally, so his visa was probably different.
The official website of the Chinese motorcyclists is at http://blog.sina.com.cn/harleydavidson2012 , but it is in Chinese.
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6. More Images of the G-219
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There is also a terrific G-219 photogallery at https://www.flickr.com/photos/nalati_1/sets/72157602909120777/ , but none of the photos are downloadable.
By far the most exhaustively detailed photographic record of the G-219 that I've been able to find on the web so far, is a sequence of pages that document the highway as travelled Lhasa to Ngari to Kashgar, in 2012, by Toyota Landcruiser: http://www.yaohua2000.org/2012/20120926/en-1.html , http://www.yaohua2000.org/2012/20120926/en-2.html , http://www.yaohua2000.org/2012/20120926/en-3.html , http://www.yaohua2000.org/2012/20120926/en-4.html , http://www.yaohua2000.org/2012/20120926/en-5.html , http://www.yaohua2000.org/2012/20120926/en-6.html , http://www.yaohua2000.org/2012/20120926/en-7.html , and http://www.yaohua2000.org/2012/20120926/en-8.html . Many of the images on these pages are worth reposting, because they make a number of useful points relevant to this thread. If I have time, a bit further along I will try to repost an edited version of this sequence.
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biotect
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7. An Important Operational Requirement of the TerraLiner: Driving the G-219, N-317, and N-318 in Tibet, at Reasonable Speed
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Throughout this thread I have been simply taking it as a given, that one of the Terraliner's operational requirements should be that it can travel the gravel-surface portions of the G-219 highway in Tibet without trouble, and at fairly high speed. I've said this before, and so I am perhaps just repeating myself by saying it again -- see posts #366 to #368, at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...pedition-RV-w-Rigid-Torsion-Free-Frame/page37 , and post #891 at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...pedition-RV-w-Rigid-Torsion-Free-Frame/page90 . But it's a point worth repeating, and remembering.
Here are two videos of the G-219, the first rather poetic, the second quotidian, demonstrating the corrugation of many sections of the highway:
[video=vimeo;80452808]http://vimeo.com/80452808[/video]
The second is particularly relevant to this thread overall, because it shows smaller 4x4 SUVs passing large, 6x6 and 8x8 trucks on the G-219. In other words, the G-219 was built large enough and stable enough to handle such large vehicles, even though it's often just a dirt road.
The G-219 is usually open, except when the snowfall is particularly heavy:
[video=dailymotion;xire0p]http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xire0p_xinjiang-tibet-highway-reopens_news[/video]
The following two videos are especially informative: they were created by a really nice, warm-hearted Indian couple, who provide plenty of commentary. They enter Tibet with their SUV about 3:30 minutes into the second video, and at roughly 6:00 minutes into the video they reach an impasse, because the G219 road literally "disappears":
They finally brave crossing through tracks of mud, and make it to the other side. The video also provides plenty of commentary about (a) the altitude (5100 m), (b) altitude sickness and their use of oxygen, and (c) the cold.
Their complete trip was London to Delhi, documented in the following series of videos: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WZ6sSAEAaQ , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWEqrIobq0c , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2Ds82xL2Ic , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_OSqDxzV88 , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2QVSmhQ-eU , and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7oBUi5g3cxw .
And in addition, I should now add that the TerraLiner certainly will want to be able to drive secondary roads of the kind attempted by Stephen Stewart's group; secondary roads like the N-317 and the N-318 that run east of Lhasa -- again, see http://www.xor.org.uk/travel/china2002/20021010.htm. In order to circumnavigate China, the TerraLiner will need to be able to drive precisely these roads.
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7. An Important Operational Requirement of the TerraLiner: Driving the G-219, N-317, and N-318 in Tibet, at Reasonable Speed
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Throughout this thread I have been simply taking it as a given, that one of the Terraliner's operational requirements should be that it can travel the gravel-surface portions of the G-219 highway in Tibet without trouble, and at fairly high speed. I've said this before, and so I am perhaps just repeating myself by saying it again -- see posts #366 to #368, at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...pedition-RV-w-Rigid-Torsion-Free-Frame/page37 , and post #891 at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...pedition-RV-w-Rigid-Torsion-Free-Frame/page90 . But it's a point worth repeating, and remembering.
Here are two videos of the G-219, the first rather poetic, the second quotidian, demonstrating the corrugation of many sections of the highway:
[video=vimeo;80452808]http://vimeo.com/80452808[/video]
The second is particularly relevant to this thread overall, because it shows smaller 4x4 SUVs passing large, 6x6 and 8x8 trucks on the G-219. In other words, the G-219 was built large enough and stable enough to handle such large vehicles, even though it's often just a dirt road.
The G-219 is usually open, except when the snowfall is particularly heavy:
[video=dailymotion;xire0p]http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xire0p_xinjiang-tibet-highway-reopens_news[/video]
The following two videos are especially informative: they were created by a really nice, warm-hearted Indian couple, who provide plenty of commentary. They enter Tibet with their SUV about 3:30 minutes into the second video, and at roughly 6:00 minutes into the video they reach an impasse, because the G219 road literally "disappears":
They finally brave crossing through tracks of mud, and make it to the other side. The video also provides plenty of commentary about (a) the altitude (5100 m), (b) altitude sickness and their use of oxygen, and (c) the cold.
Their complete trip was London to Delhi, documented in the following series of videos: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6WZ6sSAEAaQ , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWEqrIobq0c , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2Ds82xL2Ic , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_OSqDxzV88 , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2QVSmhQ-eU , and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7oBUi5g3cxw .
And in addition, I should now add that the TerraLiner certainly will want to be able to drive secondary roads of the kind attempted by Stephen Stewart's group; secondary roads like the N-317 and the N-318 that run east of Lhasa -- again, see http://www.xor.org.uk/travel/china2002/20021010.htm. In order to circumnavigate China, the TerraLiner will need to be able to drive precisely these roads.
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biotect
Designer
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8. An Operational Requirement of the TerraLiner: Circumnavigating China.
Best done with Straight Axle? or Independent Suspension?
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This is one of the main reasons why I want to keep discussion of Independent Suspension for the TerraLiner "open", and why I am not willing to agree with anyone who wants to insist that it is an obvious and "settled" question that the TerraLiner should have straight axles. I don't think there is anything obvious or settled about this question at all.
And so your input in this debate, egn, would be greatly appreciated. And so too campo's, if he's still reading the thread.....
All best wishes,
Biotect
egn
Adventurer
As you can see in the videos, the roads are traveled by all kind of vehicles with much less capabilities than the proposed Terraliner would have. More important may be size and weight when there are very narrow patches, low height tunnels or bridges. And it also depends on the capabilities of the driver. You have to check the road ahead very careful and act intelligent, instead of pushing forward with all available power.
One of the most important part of the vehicles are the tires. They have to be very robust and you should be able to replace with a spare by yourself. You should even be able to repair light damage to them by yourself.
I still prefer straight axle with spring, hydraulic or air suspension, because of it simplicity and robustness. But I don't see that the type of suspension is of relevance regarding the capability to go a specific roads. There will be a difference regarding ride comfort at higher speed, of course. But you also can slow down a bit, like the other road users.
One of the most important part of the vehicles are the tires. They have to be very robust and you should be able to replace with a spare by yourself. You should even be able to repair light damage to them by yourself.
I still prefer straight axle with spring, hydraulic or air suspension, because of it simplicity and robustness. But I don't see that the type of suspension is of relevance regarding the capability to go a specific roads. There will be a difference regarding ride comfort at higher speed, of course. But you also can slow down a bit, like the other road users.
Amphibeast
Adventurer
My 8x8 is all independent suspension… from 1958! Being a hull/unibody I think the articulation is much more forgiving on the internal chassis. My brick tends float in this configuration with having so many tires in a row to maximize traction & wheel base.. the amount of positioning of the springs, axles & tight quarters would have limited the spacing of the tires & added much more weight. Being amphibious weight is the primary issue but it also eliminates frame twist having a solid body design where axles would have just caused all kinds of stress & havoc… but that is my scenario with this particular vehicle. DUKW were all steel with an internal frame as well…but damn heavy too!
biotect
Designer
Hi Amphibeast,
Very, very interesting. So on your view, if the TerraLiner has a rigid, torsion-free, unified tubular-space-frame/monocoque body, it would be much better to have independent suspension as opposed to straight axle. Of course the TerraLiner will be 6x6 and not 8x8, but again, this is really interesting information.
Do you have any pictures of your Chrysler XM-140's suspension that you might be willing to post? As you know, images of your XM-140 are hard to find, and especially images of the suspension..... I have already posted all the images I could find on the web -- see posts #603 to #607 at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...pedition-RV-w-Rigid-Torsion-Free-Frame/page61 , and posts #628 to #632, at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...pedition-RV-w-Rigid-Torsion-Free-Frame/page63 and http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...pedition-RV-w-Rigid-Torsion-Free-Frame/page64 .
So if you have the time, and if you are willing, it would be great to see a few images that illustrate what you just wrote, namely, a completely rigid hull/unibody, combined with independent suspension. I am only suggesting images of the suspension; no need to post images of the camper body of your vehicle, which I understand you do not want to publish yet, for marketing reasons. I fully appreciate your worry here, because I have similar worries myself, about TerraLiner designs. But presumably you have not modified the hull/unibody nor the suspension of the XM-140 all that much? And so perhaps these are still in their 1958 condition? As such, perhaps posting images of just these would not undermine your marketing plans?
All best wishes,
Biotect
Very, very interesting. So on your view, if the TerraLiner has a rigid, torsion-free, unified tubular-space-frame/monocoque body, it would be much better to have independent suspension as opposed to straight axle. Of course the TerraLiner will be 6x6 and not 8x8, but again, this is really interesting information.
Do you have any pictures of your Chrysler XM-140's suspension that you might be willing to post? As you know, images of your XM-140 are hard to find, and especially images of the suspension..... I have already posted all the images I could find on the web -- see posts #603 to #607 at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...pedition-RV-w-Rigid-Torsion-Free-Frame/page61 , and posts #628 to #632, at http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...pedition-RV-w-Rigid-Torsion-Free-Frame/page63 and http://www.expeditionportal.com/for...pedition-RV-w-Rigid-Torsion-Free-Frame/page64 .
So if you have the time, and if you are willing, it would be great to see a few images that illustrate what you just wrote, namely, a completely rigid hull/unibody, combined with independent suspension. I am only suggesting images of the suspension; no need to post images of the camper body of your vehicle, which I understand you do not want to publish yet, for marketing reasons. I fully appreciate your worry here, because I have similar worries myself, about TerraLiner designs. But presumably you have not modified the hull/unibody nor the suspension of the XM-140 all that much? And so perhaps these are still in their 1958 condition? As such, perhaps posting images of just these would not undermine your marketing plans?
All best wishes,
Biotect
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Amphibeast
Adventurer
I have no problems posting…. I am keeping the entire driveline, power plant, suspension, hull..all 1958. They kept it simple & cross maintainable on all the parts… I actually found & bought the suspension from a second XM-410 that was being scrapped including the axles/pumpkins & under armor pans. i figured getting the spare one off parts would be a good investment. Not sure if i will ever use due to how overbuilt it is but I do have it…bought it at scrap price, however shipping was $$$$$$. I will need to get over to the yard where it has been for 2 years now. Time to move it to my home so I can work more on it. I highly recommend living with your project rig. Having a remote site for it is nice to store but slows down the build process! I will get pics on here soon, just need to get over to it to take them. I may have a few of palletized parts… I'll try to log on from my home Mac one of these days where I try to keep pics organized however that is not one of my strong points!
biotect
Designer
Hi Amphibeast,
That would be great, because your XM-140 seems "structurally" much closer to the current engineering trajectory of the TerraLiner, than even a MAN SX-44 or Tatra 815 6x6. As stated by another participant earlier in the thread, MAN and Tatra trucks are designed to carry lots of heavy cargo, cargo that can change. So all of their structural strength has to be located in the chassis ladder frame (MAN) or in the backbone tube (TATRA). Whereas a dedicated, fully integrated motorhome can be built differently, and it can more nearly resemble the "vertically integrated" engineering of a school bus or a Prevost coach.
But school buses and Prevost coaches are not designed specifically for off-road or "bad-road" use. Whereas your XM-140 most certainly is. Sure, school buses are very sturdy, so much so that many are repurposed for "bad-road" use in Latin America. But school buses were not deliberately designed from the ground up to be vertically engineered bad-road vehicles with tubular space frames.
It then becomes very interesting for me that your XM-140 has independent suspension, and not straight axles. So very much looking forward to your pics of the same!
All best wishes,
Biotect
That would be great, because your XM-140 seems "structurally" much closer to the current engineering trajectory of the TerraLiner, than even a MAN SX-44 or Tatra 815 6x6. As stated by another participant earlier in the thread, MAN and Tatra trucks are designed to carry lots of heavy cargo, cargo that can change. So all of their structural strength has to be located in the chassis ladder frame (MAN) or in the backbone tube (TATRA). Whereas a dedicated, fully integrated motorhome can be built differently, and it can more nearly resemble the "vertically integrated" engineering of a school bus or a Prevost coach.
But school buses and Prevost coaches are not designed specifically for off-road or "bad-road" use. Whereas your XM-140 most certainly is. Sure, school buses are very sturdy, so much so that many are repurposed for "bad-road" use in Latin America. But school buses were not deliberately designed from the ground up to be vertically engineered bad-road vehicles with tubular space frames.
It then becomes very interesting for me that your XM-140 has independent suspension, and not straight axles. So very much looking forward to your pics of the same!
All best wishes,
Biotect
Amphibeast
Adventurer
I will try to get pics on tonight if I can remember or don't doze off! I'm working on my bus tonight too… Although the bus has been designed to look off-road in nature with the Humvee front, lift & big tires I do not plan on taking that anywhere close to where the XM-410 is gonna go. The bus chassis is all stock along with the drive train. Dropping the chuckles & mounts 10" for frame & body clearance. Suspension will be stock as well, just moving it down. Fingers crossed I will get one to the OExpo west in Flagstaff AZ this May! I should organize a local work party to knock out these rigs but I'm so damn picky! lol