Well, I broke it.

mog

Kodiak Buckaroo
Test fit of the frame today - it mates up to the front section as intended. Now drilling the 24 9/16" holes (12 per frame rail) that are used to mate the front and rear frame sections.
I still believe the subframe repairs will cause an issue down the road (literarily).
The driver's side already cracked and the repair with the two welds (red arrows) only added two stress points (linear) with the continuous welds at 90 degrees to the length (welds are in the direction of cracking).
A better repair is to have the doubler (added plate) in a diamond shape (green diamond) and stitch weld it. More area not in the direction of cracking and a non-continuous weld for stress relief.
(Click to enlarge)
repair-sub.jpg
 

pugslyyy

Expedition Vehicle Engineer Guy
Well the big thing that I'm doing is eliminating the point loads on those sections. When we are done the subframe will be resting on the frame not just supported at three points. I spent about 2 hours tonight prepping some oak to go between the frame and subframe.
 

pugslyyy

Expedition Vehicle Engineer Guy
So oak is the best solution? What are you doing to prep it and how long do you think it will last?

I don't know about "best", but hardwood filler strips are a time tested and recommended solution. Right now the oak is simply treated with boric acid. I went to the architectural salvage store and got a very tight and dry beam that I cut down to size.

There are other more modern materials that you can use, but since I need to fill a 3 inch gap I think the oak will work best for my particular situation
 

1aquaholic

Adventurer
I've been fighting that dimension, not wanting the wheel wells to pertrud into the floor of the camper. Looking at the docs from Mitsubishi the bounce height for the wheels is huge. I was thinking I had to go at least 6 inches and that wouldn't even be enough. How are you dealing with that? Thanks for the tips on oak.
 

pugslyyy

Expedition Vehicle Engineer Guy
I've been fighting that dimension, not wanting the wheel wells to protrude into the floor of the camper. Looking at the docs from Mitsubishi the bounce height for the wheels is huge. I was thinking I had to go at least 6 inches and that wouldn't even be enough. How are you dealing with that? Thanks for the tips on oak.

I was fine with the stock duallies but when I converted to SRW I needed to notch the service body above the wheel arches (because I didn't want to increase height/clearance). I used the bounce height tables to figure it out and it has worked okay for me.

I don't live in Australia - but I find this section of their rules and regs on truck body mounting to be highly relevant. https://www.infrastructure.gov.au/roads/vehicle_regulation/bulletin/pdf/vsb_06_j.pdf
 

Gatsma

Adventurer
I actually printed out the Australian body-mounting manual (as I call it..) linked in Pugslyyy's post above and found it very informative. It does mention many different ways to mount a body, depending on which type of body used. From reading various threads on this forum, it seems that most of the methods mentioned have been used to mount the various camper bodies on various trucks, with mixed results. Some of the mounting methods appear to be intended for frames far more rigid than what the 4wd Fuso has, but got used anyway. The 3-pt method comes immediately to mind. It is shown in the manual to be aimed at the tanker crowd, which use a fairly strong and rigid truck frame under an even more rigid tanker body, with the 3-pt system meant to handle any MINOR misalignment between the two. It appears John("whatcharterboat") has a point about using a full subframe that fully distributes the weight over the truck frame, as that setup also appears to reinforce the truck frame much of the time. Anyway, I've learned SOOO much from these forums, and sort of boiled down here what I've learned about mounting methods from here and the Aussie body manual. If any of this blabbering needs a little straightening out, feel free to do so. It's all education, and I'm learnin'! (now dismounting from soapbox...)
 

haven

Expedition Leader
"The 3-pt method comes immediately to mind. It is shown in the manual to be aimed at the tanker crowd, which use a fairly strong and rigid truck frame under an even more rigid tanker body..."

The three and four point "torsion-free" mount is a feature of the Mercedes Unimog, which has an extremely flexible backbone style frame. So it would appear that this mounting technique can be used with several types of bodies.

While there is at least one well-travelled example of a Fuso FG with a three point "torsion free" mount (designed by Carl Hunter of Vancouver, BC, and driven around the world without any issues) we also have a couple of well-documented examples of frame failure using this design. So I'd recommend using the approach of Pugslyyy and others that places the weight of the truck camper body onto the full length of the frame.
 

Gatsma

Adventurer
While there is at least one well-travelled example of a Fuso FG with a three point "torsion free" mount (designed by Carl Hunter of Vancouver, BC, and driven around the world without any issues) we also have a couple of well-documented examples of frame failure using this design. So I'd recommend using the approach of Pugslyyy and others that places the weight of the truck camper body onto the full length of the frame.
Yeah, that's why the comment,"with mixed results" appeared. While it worked with Carl Hunter's rig, probably because he kept the weight down AND the wheelbase relatively short, it did NOT on Hadley's(now Pugslyyy's) rig. I think part of that was being overloaded AND too long a frame, allowing more flexing, but also having the fixed mounting point in front rather than the rear, which allowed even more frame flexing to result in "death of a frame".
All that aside, I have found an absolute WEALTH of knowledge to be had on this site, whether via the posts here, or links to resources like the "Aussie body manual" (kinda like that term!). All the input from the Land of Oz definitely can't hurt, either! It's all very good.
Sometime in the not-too-distant future I hope to put together a camper truck that will mostly keep to the asphalt-and-concrete realm of things, so a mid-road approach will probably be used in body mounting, meaning somewhat rigid, but still allowing SOME flex (NOTHING is totally flat!).
As I said, it's all education! I love it! And thanks for the clarification, Chip!
 

gait

Explorer
this is for interest, as is - I have no intention of trying to persuade people of the effectiveness of any of the competing approaches, simply to note that they can all be made to work and all with have their own peculiar failure mode.

After more than 100,000 km on lots of rough roads with "modified 3 point mount" on MWB Fuso the chassis is intact.

I had access to both the Fuso info and the Aus body mounting guidelines plus engineering advice.

I have extra support evenly spaced. Imagine 7 "mounts". Front pair are simple compression springs. Next pair are "fixed". Next pair are simple compression springs. All "outrigger". Last one is pivot. The pivot is central between the chassis rails (rather than above) to avoid lateral movement of the pivot due to twisting of the chassis.

The compression springs are rated and compressed just sufficiently to share the load. They are long enough and of a rating that the small amount of compression/expansion has little effect on how much of the load they carry. Hooke's law for the engineers. 10mm wire, 7 turns, 300mm long, 75mm OD, compression/expansion <15mm, static load on each mount around 110kg.

The box is lightweight with a drop top. Its "post compressed" to provide rigidity but nevertheless I didn't want to subject it to any twisting. I didn't need or want to have passengers in the rear while driving. All up weight is around 4500kg.

Interesting bit for the discussion is that the chassis twist is less when there is weight on the springs, the springs "work" rather than the chassis. Memory fading, I think I allowed for clearance at 15 degrees of chassis twist but doubt it ever gets that far. A 6000 kg vehicle would probably twist less and have more leaf spring movement than my 4500kg vehicle.

In the photos below the vertical exhaust at left rear corner of cab (when facing forwards) gives a clue to the angles. Coming out of Palm Valley (central Aus) about 3 1/2 years ago. A few holes in the sandstone under the water.

Also interesting while driving is the bend in the chassis rails that is visible as the top of the cab becoming closer to the box. I spent a lot of time watching commercial heavy vehicles flex in that way so am relatively happy.

My understanding of crawl throughs is that the bellows is wont to pull out of its mounts in extreme conditions on "fixed" mounts but I don't have a crawl through so its just heresay.

My sub-frame broke in Mongolia but that's another story, wasn't a show stopper, and unrelated to the mounting. The reason for the break is unique to me and my vehicle (chassis rails truncated immediately behind rear spring hangers by previous owner so long cantilever to spares and heavier wheels as original design around standard wheels).

My impression of the Hackney design is that the three points were at the forward extremity of the body and the rear extremity of the chassis which allowed the chassis to bend, possibly a bit like the high frequency oscillations of IainC's(?) Merc front springs on the recently posted video. Classic fatigue.

014 Tardis.jpg015 Tardis.jpg
 
Last edited:

Gatsma

Adventurer
Hackney, not Hadley... ;)
Welcome to the forum, by the way.
OOOOPPS!! SORRY MR. HACKNEY! I knew I shoulda looked that one up! And ME, the stickler for good spelling.... oh well....
And thank you Owen! BTW, I checked out your site, too. Nicely done!
 

pappawheely

Autonomous4X4
this is for interest, as is - I have no intention of trying to persuade people of the effectiveness of any of the competing approaches, simply to note that they can all be made to work and all with have their own peculiar failure mode.

After more than 100,000 km on lots of rough roads with "modified 3 point mount" on MWB Fuso the chassis is intact.

I had access to both the Fuso info and the Aus body mounting guidelines plus engineering advice.

I have extra support evenly spaced. Imagine 7 "mounts". Front pair are simple compression springs. Next pair are "fixed". Next pair are simple compression springs. All "outrigger". Last one is pivot. The pivot is central between the chassis rails (rather than above) to avoid lateral movement of the pivot due to twisting of the chassis.

The compression springs are rated and compressed just sufficiently to share the load. They are long enough and of a rating that the small amount of compression/expansion has little effect on how much of the load they carry. Hooke's law for the engineers. 10mm wire, 7 turns, 300mm long, 75mm OD, compression/expansion <15mm, static load on each mount around 110kg.

The box is lightweight with a drop top. Its "post compressed" to provide rigidity but nevertheless I didn't want to subject it to any twisting. I didn't need or want to have passengers in the rear while driving. All up weight is around 4500kg.

Interesting bit for the discussion is that the chassis twist is less when there is weight on the springs, the springs "work" rather than the chassis. Memory fading, I think I allowed for clearance at 15 degrees of chassis twist but doubt it ever gets that far. A 6000 kg vehicle would probably twist less and have more leaf spring movement than my 4500kg vehicle.

In the photos below the vertical exhaust at left rear corner of cab (when facing forwards) gives a clue to the angles. Coming out of Palm Valley (central Aus) about 3 1/2 years ago. A few holes in the sandstone under the water.

Also interesting while driving is the bend in the chassis rails that is visible as the top of the cab becoming closer to the box. I spent a lot of time watching commercial heavy vehicles flex in that way so am relatively happy.

My understanding of crawl throughs is that the bellows is wont to pull out of its mounts in extreme conditions on "fixed" mounts but I don't have a crawl through so its just heresay.

My sub-frame broke in Mongolia but that's another story, wasn't a show stopper, and unrelated to the mounting. The reason for the break is unique to me and my vehicle (chassis rails truncated immediately behind rear spring hangers by previous owner so long cantilever to spares and heavier wheels as original design around standard wheels).

My impression of the Hackney design is that the three points were at the forward extremity of the body and the rear extremity of the chassis which allowed the chassis to bend, possibly a bit like the high frequency oscillations of IainC's(?) Merc front springs on the recently posted video. Classic fatigue.

View attachment 243844View attachment 243845

Do you have any photos of your chassis and mounts?
 

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