canter tourer
Adventurer
Vegemite?
Vacuum Insulated Composite Panels
- Thread starter DzlToy
- Start date
mhiscox
Expedition Leader
Now we're making progress. This is only the roughest calculation (as I didn't have a jar to measure), but if John builds a cabin, say, 12 x 7 x 6.5 feet, it looks like it could hold about 30,000 jars. That'd make for a lot of Happy Little Vegemites.Vegemite?
Of course, that might be more jars of Vegemite than are sold in the States in a decade.
Keep the ideas coming.
canter tourer
Adventurer
Tim-tams?, but seriously, the idea of shipping anything empty anywhere is economic madness, maybe linking with other aussie exporters would combine benefits, but tim-tams are yum!
SkiFreak
Crazy Person
I am pretty sure that if this were to happen that it would be part of a regular shipment of parts/equipment to ATW USA. I really doubt that a camper body would be the only thing in the container. That would just be silly, and I don't think that ATW fall into that category.
But I think we are moving a little off topic here...
1aquaholic
Adventurer
I'm trying to wrap my head around how important insulation is on my build, I'm drawn to large panels for there ease of construction and have been looking at honeycomb composites but there R factor is very low. I will be going up to the mountains a lot to snowboard but also plan on many trips to south america into the heat. I'm going to have a hydronic radiant floor but don't plan on having AC because of how much electricity they draw. I plan on having many large opening window and don't think you can get much insulation out of them anyway so if my box was well insulated the big windows would cancel that out anyway right? Any insight is much appreciated.
j
j
LeishaShannon
Adventurer
We used 30mm thick high density PU foam on our build, I'm yet to do any serious testing (I plan to record inside/outside temps over time) but it feels very well insulated and on a sunny day the roof inside is cool to the touch.
Our windows are double "glazed" acrylic and while these are cool to the touch on a sunny day the black aluminium frame that holds them in place creates a thermal bridge. I have measured 50c on the inside of the window frame, while the ambient is 25c, so avoiding thermal bridges is important.
Jayco use an aluminium edge moulding for their composite RVs that creates a large thermal bridge between inside and outside on every edge of the camper, i'd hate to think about how this reduces the total insulation value. Customers are also reporting heavy condensation in cupboards due to this bridge.
Our windows are "big" (1450x550) , and while cool to the touch they do let a lot of radiated (I think, I'm sure someone will correct me) heat through. This can be blocked by the integrated reflective blind in the window, however when you do this you end up with really hot air between the blind and the window. I measured 43c here on the same 25c day mentioned above.
If you have a lot of solar a small efficient AC like the mitsubishi 6 star models can be used off grid, this is what we have installed and on a 13c night recently I was able to heat the camper to 20c in around 15 minutes at 1am. The inside temp had only dropped to 17c by 6am when I woke up.
I realise our temps are far milder than you'll be experiencing but hopefully some of this info is useful.
Our windows are double "glazed" acrylic and while these are cool to the touch on a sunny day the black aluminium frame that holds them in place creates a thermal bridge. I have measured 50c on the inside of the window frame, while the ambient is 25c, so avoiding thermal bridges is important.
Jayco use an aluminium edge moulding for their composite RVs that creates a large thermal bridge between inside and outside on every edge of the camper, i'd hate to think about how this reduces the total insulation value. Customers are also reporting heavy condensation in cupboards due to this bridge.
Our windows are "big" (1450x550) , and while cool to the touch they do let a lot of radiated (I think, I'm sure someone will correct me) heat through. This can be blocked by the integrated reflective blind in the window, however when you do this you end up with really hot air between the blind and the window. I measured 43c here on the same 25c day mentioned above.
If you have a lot of solar a small efficient AC like the mitsubishi 6 star models can be used off grid, this is what we have installed and on a 13c night recently I was able to heat the camper to 20c in around 15 minutes at 1am. The inside temp had only dropped to 17c by 6am when I woke up.
I realise our temps are far milder than you'll be experiencing but hopefully some of this info is useful.
gait
Explorer
its all an interesting mixture of insulation, cross flow ventilation, and thermal mass. And Shannon is very right about the thermal bridges. Both loss of insulation and condensation.
Fridges are all about insulation. Compressor control schemes make a difference but insulation has the most influence.
The double glazed windows that are hinged across the top re-radiate heat, a "reflective sock" helps.
My roof is 50mm. Walls 20mm. I tend to avoid more than 35 degrees C when humid at which we've been comfortable and have been comfortable down to -15 deg C overnight.
Perhaps interesting to compare German and Aus dominant designs. The Germans seem to use thicker wall insulation and smaller, up to triple glazed, windows. Emphasis on heating. Aus has larger windows thinner walls. Emphasis on cooling. There are also differences in water tanks, Germans tend to be inside the shell, Aus outside. Mine are outside with hot water heating coils. I haven't a clue about US but odds on its different.
Thermal mass seems to me to be as important as conductivity when trying to keep cool. Its nice to have a large thermal mass when trying to keep warm. If trying to keep cool it tends to re-radiate. Part of why ventilation is important. A general problem when occupying small spaces (my house in sub-tropical Brisbane has a 6m high living room ceiling. On the cooler days its nice to heat the rear of the truck from the engine while driving and be comfortable for several hours before having to turn heater on.
Basically though I believe its important to understand that comfort is more than temperature. And more than humidity.
And its easier to heat than to cool.
Not sure if this answers anything .........
Fridges are all about insulation. Compressor control schemes make a difference but insulation has the most influence.
The double glazed windows that are hinged across the top re-radiate heat, a "reflective sock" helps.
My roof is 50mm. Walls 20mm. I tend to avoid more than 35 degrees C when humid at which we've been comfortable and have been comfortable down to -15 deg C overnight.
Perhaps interesting to compare German and Aus dominant designs. The Germans seem to use thicker wall insulation and smaller, up to triple glazed, windows. Emphasis on heating. Aus has larger windows thinner walls. Emphasis on cooling. There are also differences in water tanks, Germans tend to be inside the shell, Aus outside. Mine are outside with hot water heating coils. I haven't a clue about US but odds on its different.
Thermal mass seems to me to be as important as conductivity when trying to keep cool. Its nice to have a large thermal mass when trying to keep warm. If trying to keep cool it tends to re-radiate. Part of why ventilation is important. A general problem when occupying small spaces (my house in sub-tropical Brisbane has a 6m high living room ceiling. On the cooler days its nice to heat the rear of the truck from the engine while driving and be comfortable for several hours before having to turn heater on.
Basically though I believe its important to understand that comfort is more than temperature. And more than humidity.
And its easier to heat than to cool.
Not sure if this answers anything .........
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1aquaholic
Adventurer
Thanks both responses were great. I do plan on spending time in both sides of the heat spectrum and would like some sound insulation from the outside world when it is required. After making many calls to many manufacturers I've realized that composite honeycomb has the strength but little insulation and a foam core composite has the opposite. I did find a company Fiber-Tech Industries ( http://www.fiber-tech.net/ ) that makes a 1" foam core with 1/4" honeycomb on both sides for a total of 1.5" OD. They said it has a R value of about 8 and would cost 8 to 9 dollars a square foot with gelcoat and color so right now I'm leaning towards that. Is there anything else out there?
j
j
When considering your build, you have to think about the build as a whole and not as a collection of discrete tasks. If your planning to winter camp, you need to consider placing your water & waste tanks along with the associated plumbing within the confines of the camper' body.
What does Fiber-Tech Industries recommend you do regarding connecting the sides to a top and a bottom?
How do you plan to support the floor?
Will the material require bracing or framing to support windows, doors, roof vents, and a roof mounted A/C unit?
What are your plans for routing wires up to and across the ceiling using these panels?
Can you anchor wires, plumbing lines and fixtures directly to the material?
Does the material out-gas toxic fumes?
There's a lot to consider. In the end it's all a compromise.
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1aquaholic
Adventurer
All very good points and most I've considered to some extent or another, probably not enough....maybe to much....anyway right now I just can't figure out how important insulation is. Going to have hydronic radiant floor heat, don't really want ac but might break down and go that rout. Thinking fiberglass corner molding to bring the box togther and building a aluminum subframe now, no need for bracing as far as I understand, easy to anchor to glass with the right adhesives and wiring can be hidden in conduit and behind cabinets etc.
j
j
ersatzknarf
lost, but making time
Hello J !
Thank you for sharing this find.
Was not able to find it directly on their website.
Was it something that they informed you about, may I ask?
If their product works out for you, this might well be the answer to a lot of folks' questions
Thank you for sharing this find.
Was not able to find it directly on their website.
Was it something that they informed you about, may I ask?
If their product works out for you, this might well be the answer to a lot of folks' questions
ersatzknarf
lost, but making time
Hi again J,
Don't rule out steel for the sub-frame. It might provide a very durable and economical solution...
Don't rule out steel for the sub-frame. It might provide a very durable and economical solution...
After looking at their website, it appears Fibertech will build a panel(s) with whichever materials they use to make their various products. When on their site, go to the top of the page where it says "Product Info". Then hit on "Product Descriptions". When on that page, go to the last description on that page called "Alternative Core Materials". There is an implication there that they'll do what ever you want within the scope of their product line. Give them a call; you don't know until you ask!Hello J !
Thank you for sharing this find.
Was not able to find it directly on their website.
Was it something that they informed you about, may I ask?
If their product works out for you, this might well be the answer to a lot of folks' questions
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Tony LEE
International Grey Nomad
Nothing to do with thermal performance, but we find the most practical solution to undesirable external noise is to mask it by making noise inside the box. Normal box fan makes a nice white noise and can do a pretty good job of reducing the nuisance. Also works if you have to have windows open for ventilation. A fantastic or Maaxair roof vent does the same thing
SkiFreak
Crazy Person
I also considered this, but chose not to go down that route, and here's why...
My design was going to use the Webasto ThermoTop coolant heater for the cabin heater, as well as for heating the calorifier. The biggest problem was temperature control, and possible damage to the panels. The coolant gets heated to about 80 degrees and is maintained at that temperature. I found no way, other than restricting flow, to manage that. My conclusion was that there would be significant ebbs and flows with the floor temperature, making it extremely difficult to maintain anywhere near a constant, acceptable temperature inside the cab. As I touched on, the temperature of the pipes running through the panel was also of concern, as well as potential leaks into the core material. A friend has gone down this path (installation wise) but he used domestic hydronic floor heating pipe atop his floor panel and then laid bamboo flooring over that. This was a better solution, repair wise, than I was looking at doing, but it made his floor about 60mm thick. He has still not "commissioned" that system, so I cannot give any real world experiences of how it works.
I would be interested in hearing if you have solutions to the issues that stopped me from going down this path.