I feel another build coming on.....

[NeverEnough]

It suppose it was inevitable, but I've started thinking about another custom setup. I love my big rig and it's an awesome platform for our "local" adventures, but I'm hoping the future allows more opportunity to explore the globe, not just the US. This time I'd like to try something much smaller and more nimble, hopefully with international suitability. I've spent a good deal of time over the past few years reading up on the different approaches, but before I get too far down the road, I'd love to have the Expo family weigh in on an idea.

Long before the Kiravan went public, I'd been doing sketches of an off-road "5th wheel" configuration with drive wheels on the trailer. I've always liked the versatility of having a capable truck being separate from the camper. And I'm extremely curious about how well trailer drive wheels would perform in extreme conditions, creating a 6x6 of sorts. The idea has been around for a long time, but never been very popular outside of agricultural applications.

So for those of you who have truly done the "overlanding" thing, is a truck/trailer combo an absolute "No"? The configuration I'm thinking of would be an extremely capable 4x4 (highly modified Ford e450 or even a Unimog U1700) with a short flatbed, articulating gooseneck coupler, and a hard-sided pop-up trailer around 17' long, keeping the total rig length under 30'. The trailer would have hydrostatic drive wheels (Poclain or similar) for difficult traction scenarios, but free-wheel most the time. I'd keep the rig dimensions small enough to fit into a high-cube container, and the total weight below 16,000lbs (difficult if I use a mog, however).

My personal experience with trailers has been mostly favorable. The added length is mitigated by the pivot point, and IF the drive wheels actually worked, it could open the door for some interesting terrain capabilities. And I've always loved being able to ditch the trailer, even though I know that may not be a good idea in certain circumstances.

Gas vs. diesel is always a good question these days, of course.

Thoughts?

 

[spencyg]

Oh man....your last build was so incredible that all I can really say is "do it!". Though a trailer certainly isn't done much in this ExPo community I don't see why it couldn't be feasible. Importing of trailers may be different but I don't know for sure. The only functionality challenges I would immediately foresee would be breakover angles and the obvious complexity of a hydrostatic trailer drive. There are lots of nooks and crannies in this world of ours and most of them are without hydraulic shops. Spares are an obvious "no brainer" but with complexity comes headaches. I see time and time again the mantra "keep it simple" and "don't modify" from those who have actually traveled the globe on 2 and 4 wheels (or more), so from that standpoint your plan may have some obvious limitations/drawbacks.

But aside from all that. DO IT.

SG

 

[wayno]

I think that sounds like a build that I would love to read about, so my vote would be to go for it. I looked into getting a hydraulic drive system, EZ Trac, added to a RWD Freightliner or International truck like yours for the basis of an expedition camper build. It was actually recommended to me by someone at Hendrickson suspensions when I described what I wanted the rig to be capable of. His opinion was that the benefits of doing hydraulic for a front drive axle, including maintaining a tighter turn angle from a traditional driven axle, lower ride height, and more comfortable ride for long hauls would outweigh the negatives of not having a dedicated low range transfer case, or locking differentials per se. After all, for an expedition type camper I wasn't looking for a rock crawler as much as something to just be able to drive across some sand dunes or muddy tracks with without getting stuck.

Of course I got a ballpark quote from an installer for equipping an EZ Trac system on a RWD truck, and it was ~$40k up charge. So at that point I may be back to a more traditional driven axle 4x4 or preferably 6x6 crew cab freightliner or International rig. I hadn't really considered something like that for a trailer, but I am definitely intrigued.

I owner though what it is about your current rig that you believe limits your international travels? Why not take your beast and head out around the world? Surely Unicat and some of the other big German coach builders build rigs equivalent in size and larger than what you built. And from an global support level do you see that big a difference between your international truck versus a Ford e-450 or similar as you mentioned?

I ask because I desperately want to build a rig along the lines of yours, or Shachagra, or even Earthroamers' proposed hd-xl model, or a GXV Pangea on a chassis like yours specifically for round the world nomadic living with my family. I am trying to decide, is it possible, is it feasible, is it a good idea? What would be better etc?

Thanks for providing me benchmarking and inspiration through you first build project, and I would eagerly look for more through a second.

Thanks,
Wayno


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[flylow4500]

I wouldn't confuse a e-series van with a heavy duty truck. There is a big difference between vans and trucks.

 

[NeverEnough]

The gaps between an E450 chassis, my old Topkick, my current International 7400, and a Unimog 1700 are massive. My 7400 is a great platform for our US adventures for the most part. But it is a MONSTER. I know there are plenty of Mog and MAN expo vehicles driving the globe, but I would want something far more nimble. I've ridden and driven enough in SA and Europe to know how limiting a big vehicle would be. Then again, I'm not attracted to living more than a couple of months at a time in any type of vehicle. Big and spacious are nice attributes for "full-timing". I think Shachagra did a great job of designing a vehicle for extended travel with a family. My current build was not designed for that, rather for relatively short trips of a week or two in remote locations.

So looking at the E450 as a chassis means a very light, compact setup with some top-end potential. The Mog would be compact, but not light and fast. I love the Mogs, but I'm nervous about a 25-year old truck, even if it's rebuilt. And IF I did use an E450, it would be highly modified. I'm compiling a list of all the components and their anticipated weight (along with dimensional requirements), and that will ultimately drive the chassis selection.

 

[flylow4500]

I understand your point, mine was unclear.

I was trying to say a e450 is not as beefy as f450... and still not a good as a Ram 4500.

Is a reg cab pickup too long?

 

[Overland Hadley]

Am I correct in thinking you want to go with an E series for the interior room for the family?

It is super exciting to think that you will be starting on a new build! It is also encouraging as I am starting to think of my next project that will get me "out there", good to know I am not alone in enjoying the building process.

 

[red EOD veteran]

With keeping the total length at 30' or less that makes things difficult. Would you be sleeping in the truck or the trailer? If sleeping in the trailer is a soft shelter, such as a roof top tent, a viable option? Most full size trucks and vans are around the 20' length. Add in 4-5' for the trailer connections and your looking at a small trailer for size, a military trailer or utility trailer for example. Which is a good setup for those comfortable with a minimalist design for extended periods of time.

We could use more info to give a better input. Taking the whole family or just 1-2 people? Required creature comforts? The kiss mindset applies, but if you know how to fix the custom components in adverse conditions then I don't see why not to have them.

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[java]

Only issue I can see with the powered trailer is it getting more traction than the truck and pushing the back end of the truck around (sideways) due to the pivot.

Thinking about powered trailers, they are used often in snow cats and snow convoy vehicles. To overcome the trailer pushing the drive vehicle sideways problem, many have a hydraulic ram between the cars. This allows the trailer to be steered, but makes it no so trailer like. It may make road use very very difficult, not sure if the ram could be disconnected or similar for normal unpowered trailer use.


Im down for a build of whatever you can come up with! your last ruck was an inspiration!

 

[NeverEnough]

The platform choice is a big one, obviously, and impacted by dimensional preferences (length, width, height, wheelbase, angles), and weight realities- which are driven by how many people for how long. My hope is something that meets the following:

1) transport 4-5 people in the cab with SUV-type comfort
2) truck/trailer (5th wheel/goosneck style)
3) sub 140" wheelbase for truck
4) same wheelbase between truck rear axle and trailer
5) truck with a minimum 6' bed, extendable to 7'
6) total rig height less than 9'6" on the road, less than 8'6" on "shipping wheels"
7) 84-90" width
8) sub 30' length
9) hard-shell, probably with raising roof on the trailer
10) option for traction assist on the trailer for 4WD conditions (under 15-20 mph)
11) Toy-hauler trailer design to hold up to 4 bikes

As we all know, custom builds take a bit of time, and by the time this project sees dirt, the shape of my family will be very different. Rather than my current monolithic solution, the future will require something more "modular"- meaning multiple, but smaller, vehicles/campers. More of a fleet approach!

And call me crazy, but I'm also very interesting in EV's, which is what really got me looking at the E450s, since there's been some very good work done on that platform as an electric/hybrid vehicle. The Bremach T-Rex is cool, but not really an option right now in the US.

I've been able to do some renderings using a Unimog U1700 Doka and an E450 Cutaway that fit the dimensional requirements, including room for critical infrastructure components (tanks, genset, batts, etc.). The Unimog setup would be very cool: short wheel base, great angles, amazing machine- but not exactly easy to source in the US. With some fast axles, they can even cruise the highway.

Extended travel means a lot of time in both the cab and the camper, so both have to be up to the task. Comfort is very subjective, but I'd like to try to find a sweet spot between spartan and luxurious.

As for the for the trailer pushing to much, the Poclain systems claim to have a decent brain to keep that from happening. Curious to know if that's actually true.

 

[red EOD veteran]

A gooseneck hitch has more flexibility than a 5th wheel, takes up less space as well. You could setup the sleeping quarters at the top part of the trailer, with the rest of the bed space over the gooseneck hitch of the trailer.

With that setup you can get away with a lighter truck, 3/4-1 ton range easily.

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[red EOD veteran]

With the fuel option diesel engines are not as picky about fuel quality and will get better fuel economy. Downside is all newer US diesels will only run ULSD, not available everywhere which limits you to mid 2000's trucks and older. That's something the unimog and other old trucks will win at, they don't care about fuel quality and have no computers or sensors to fail when your in the middle of nowhere.

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[DiploStrat]

... but I'm hoping the future allows more opportunity to explore the globe, not just the US. This time I'd like to try something much smaller and more nimble, hopefully with international suitability. I've spent a good deal of time over the past few years reading up on the different approaches, but before I get too far down the road, I'd love to have the Expo family weigh in on an idea.

So for those of you who have truly done the "overlanding" thing, is a truck/trailer combo an absolute "No"?

Thoughts?

I'll play.

-- First question is, where in the world? The dirty secret is that the vast majority of the roads are paved these days and overlanding is not the same as wheeling'. And eve overlanders who think they are going to be going on a 4x4 trek are generally amazed at how little they use it. Make mistake, I would build 4x4, but more for mud/snow, strength (the roads may be paved, but that pavement is often terrible), and squeezing into out of the way campsites.

-- I wouldn't touch a trailer with a gun to my head, partly based on the comments of many Australians. That said, I saw a VW camper towing a trailer in Kano. The owner commented that he drove until he got stuck. Then he unhitched the trailer, drove across the soft part, and then pulled the trailer with a cable. It worked for him, but it sounds like too much work to me.

-- Unless you are taking a whole tribe, as Cuthbert did with Shachagra, I would consider 25 feet (7.5M) to be just about the outer limit for practicality in European or South American cities. If you are using a tow vehicle as large as an American pickup, you have several problems: Where do you leave the trailer in safety? Where do you park the tow vehicle that is already very big at 20 feet long?

All of that said, this is an intensely personal issue. The Cuthberts had a great trip. There are Germans running around the world in three axle MAN trucks. You can make ANYTHING work.

To me, this is the first, essential read on the subject. I don't agree with everything he says, but I would consider all of it. And you are immediately raising the ante by going with more than two people. http://www.xor.org.uk/silkroute/equipment/choosevan.htm

In the meantime, I'm subscribed!

 

[libarata]

ignore

 

[NeverEnough]

I'll play.

-- First question is, where in the world? The dirty secret is that the vast majority of the roads are paved these days and overlanding is not the same as wheeling'. And eve overlanders who think they are going to be going on a 4x4 trek are generally amazed at how little they use it. Make mistake, I would build 4x4, but more for mud/snow, strength (the roads may be paved, but that pavement is often terrible), and squeezing into out of the way campsites.

-- I wouldn't touch a trailer with a gun to my head, partly based on the comments of many Australians. That said, I saw a VW camper towing a trailer in Kano. The owner commented that he drove until he got stuck. Then he unhitched the trailer, drove across the soft part, and then pulled the trailer with a cable. It worked for him, but it sounds like too much work to me.

-- Unless you are taking a whole tribe, as Cuthbert did with Shachagra, I would consider 25 feet (7.5M) to be just about the outer limit for practicality in European or South American cities. If you are using a tow vehicle as large as an American pickup, you have several problems: Where do you leave the trailer in safety? Where do you park the tow vehicle that is already very big at 20 feet long?

All of that said, this is an intensely personal issue. The Cuthberts had a great trip. There are Germans running around the world in three axle MAN trucks. You can make ANYTHING work.

To me, this is the first, essential read on the subject. I don't agree with everything he says, but I would consider all of it. And you are immediately raising the ante by going with more than two people. http://www.xor.org.uk/silkroute/equipment/choosevan.htm

In the meantime, I'm subscribed!

Thanks for the link and comments. Not the first traveler to endorse the older Mercedes trucks and the best chassis choice for out-of-the-way journeys.

As for where we'd go, there's a long list. However, most of them I'd prefer to do on an adventure motorcycle, not a big camper. But Australia and Mongolia are of interest for a camper-based trip. And it was actually the Australian trailer makers that provided some of the foundation for this concept.

No doubt there's a security issue leaving a trailer, or any vehicle, unattended in certain parts of the world, and it has to figure into the design work to mitigate the risks.

My justification for going longer than 25' is the added manuverability gained from the pivot point. It will be difficult to come up with a tow vehicle much shorter than 18' that accommodates two rows of seating (unless OKA gets back into business). And it is difficult to come up with a trailer design less than 17' long (includes 5' bed overhang section) that can provide infrastructure required for 3-4 adults or a small family (by Utah standards!). So I think a truck/trailer combo of 30' is a short as it's going to get.

I completely agree that you can make anything work if you're prepared and knowledgeable of your limitations. I love this forum because it is filled with the attitude of "nothing ventured, nothing gained" and a willingness to share the lessons learned to benefit those that come along next.