daddyusmaximus
Explorer
Federal
Ownership
Respectfully
Declined
Ownership
Respectfully
Declined
People always ask me why I stick with Ford.
- Thread starter AFBronco235
- Start date
stingray1300
Explorer
True. And Dodge didn't. But, GM still filed bankruptcy, leaving all their suppliers and creditors holding an extremely large "bag" (of crap).
.
And then there's the 66 recalls/30Million vehicles.
.
Any thoughts on that?
Larry
Bigassgas Explorer
Each to their own I guess. Like Coke vs. Pepsi, Coors vs. Bud, Chocolate vs. Vanilla......the best one is the one that makes you happy and feel like your money was well spent. All vehicles all have their pros and cons. Personally I think Fords are just low spec limit quality at the lowest cost vehicles much like Korean cars. They look great now but just don't hold up well with the test of time. What Ford really excels in is marketing and being in the right place at the right time.
Funny how quickly people forget Ford went broke first. Ford started to implode as early as 2003 when they had poor products, poor quality, poor dealer relations, poor supplier relations and were struggling to even pay suppliers. They were laying blue and white collar employees off like they had the plague. Within a few years they had no choice but to secure a few billion dollars in loans to maintain operations and invest into themselves (future technologies, plant upgrades, etc.) as they had depleted their cash. Meanwhile, the other two guys across town weren't exactly the healthiest either but they continued to plug along and tried to weather the financial storm the economy was getting into on their own goodwill.
I work in the automotive industry and I don't recall meeting anybody that works in this industry from corporate employees to auto journalists (including my colleagues that work for Ford) that doesn't realize Ford was in the right (bad) place at the right time when they took out their loans. Had they waited longer to secure loans they would have found there were none to get as GM and Chrysler learned then comes the bailouts. If Ford could have survived much longer without needing a cash infusion, they would have been standing right there with GM and Chrysler in the bailout line. So for uninformed that continuously break their arms patting Ford on the back for not taking a bailout, keep in mind. Ford went broke first and had to take out a loan first while the bank was still open and well before the word “auto bailout” ever became a nightly topic on the front page news. By the time the other guys went broke the bank was already closed amidst a global financial meltdown. There was no money to borrow other than Uncle Sam.
If that still doesn't help you think of it this way; Ford, GM and Chrysler were in a Blackjack game that started at 3 PM. Ford did poorly and had to hit up the ATM at 6 PM. GM and Chrysler continued to play along for another 5 hours before they ran out of cash and found the ATM machine ran out of money at 9 PM. With no money in the ATM, the casino wrote them a line of credit and made an announcement over the casino intercom of this hot game going on in the back room and a large loan they were extending to two poor players. Meanwhile a few spectators hear this announcement and started taking interest in the game at 11:45 PM. When the spectators arrives at the table they see Ford with a pile of chips in front of them while the other players are standing off to the side signing their life way to borrow a pile of chips in order to stay in the game. Because of the spectators late arrival and interest in the game they missed seeing Ford empty the ATM machine at 6 PM and get the notion Ford was a better blackjack player because Ford still had chips in front of them instead of standing there in line with the other guys to get a loan too. In the end, they were all losers! That is exactly what people that do not follow the auto industry fail to see. They fail to see Ford was no better. In fact, they were in bad shape sooner!
The end of the story is Ford has totally Forest Gump-ed themselves into becoming this brand that so many people believe (and are rewarding) is a strong well operated good ole All- 'Merican company that didn't need no stinking government bailouts. BS!! I have to shake my head every time I hear someone speak with a rewarding tone about Ford not taking a bailout. Does this make Ford bad? No! But it sure doesn't make them any better than the other two. People, STOP with the Ford not taking a bailout BS story. It is dumb and uninformed.
My bailout rant off!
Funny how quickly people forget Ford went broke first. Ford started to implode as early as 2003 when they had poor products, poor quality, poor dealer relations, poor supplier relations and were struggling to even pay suppliers. They were laying blue and white collar employees off like they had the plague. Within a few years they had no choice but to secure a few billion dollars in loans to maintain operations and invest into themselves (future technologies, plant upgrades, etc.) as they had depleted their cash. Meanwhile, the other two guys across town weren't exactly the healthiest either but they continued to plug along and tried to weather the financial storm the economy was getting into on their own goodwill.
I work in the automotive industry and I don't recall meeting anybody that works in this industry from corporate employees to auto journalists (including my colleagues that work for Ford) that doesn't realize Ford was in the right (bad) place at the right time when they took out their loans. Had they waited longer to secure loans they would have found there were none to get as GM and Chrysler learned then comes the bailouts. If Ford could have survived much longer without needing a cash infusion, they would have been standing right there with GM and Chrysler in the bailout line. So for uninformed that continuously break their arms patting Ford on the back for not taking a bailout, keep in mind. Ford went broke first and had to take out a loan first while the bank was still open and well before the word “auto bailout” ever became a nightly topic on the front page news. By the time the other guys went broke the bank was already closed amidst a global financial meltdown. There was no money to borrow other than Uncle Sam.
If that still doesn't help you think of it this way; Ford, GM and Chrysler were in a Blackjack game that started at 3 PM. Ford did poorly and had to hit up the ATM at 6 PM. GM and Chrysler continued to play along for another 5 hours before they ran out of cash and found the ATM machine ran out of money at 9 PM. With no money in the ATM, the casino wrote them a line of credit and made an announcement over the casino intercom of this hot game going on in the back room and a large loan they were extending to two poor players. Meanwhile a few spectators hear this announcement and started taking interest in the game at 11:45 PM. When the spectators arrives at the table they see Ford with a pile of chips in front of them while the other players are standing off to the side signing their life way to borrow a pile of chips in order to stay in the game. Because of the spectators late arrival and interest in the game they missed seeing Ford empty the ATM machine at 6 PM and get the notion Ford was a better blackjack player because Ford still had chips in front of them instead of standing there in line with the other guys to get a loan too. In the end, they were all losers! That is exactly what people that do not follow the auto industry fail to see. They fail to see Ford was no better. In fact, they were in bad shape sooner!
The end of the story is Ford has totally Forest Gump-ed themselves into becoming this brand that so many people believe (and are rewarding) is a strong well operated good ole All- 'Merican company that didn't need no stinking government bailouts. BS!! I have to shake my head every time I hear someone speak with a rewarding tone about Ford not taking a bailout. Does this make Ford bad? No! But it sure doesn't make them any better than the other two. People, STOP with the Ford not taking a bailout BS story. It is dumb and uninformed.
My bailout rant off!
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daddyusmaximus
Explorer
Sorry, but it is not so dumb and uninformed. Taking out a loan from a creditor is not the same as taking out a government bailout. Many companies (Ford included) have fallen on rough times. It is notable how those companies differ in their response to those troubling times. Had I the money, I would have the best of the best... a Ford truck with the Cummins engine.
Woofwagon
Adventurer
True, but I didn't want to shell out 10 large for a diesel model. Far cheaper and more fun for me (as an engineer) to put a Cummins in a 'Burb.
superbuickguy
Explorer
I'm sorry, but the OP headline makes me think "but if you'd clean up that spilled big gulp, you'd no longer be stuck to a Ford"
Larry
Bigassgas Explorer
You're right, it is not dumb and uninformed. It is idiotic. You still don't get it. By the time, GM and Chrysler were in dire need of a cash infusion there was no money to be borrowed from any banks amidst a global economic meltdown. They had to choice but to lean on the feds. Again, had Ford not gone broke a few years earlier and secured loans prior to the global meltdown they would have been in the same boat as GM and Chrysler in 2009. Ford's fear of the uncertainly is why they also supported the bailouts. They weren't so sure themselves they might not need a government infusion themselves at some point in the future. To reward Ford for not taking the bailout is idiotic. Let's reward them for going broke first and taking out a loan before the banks went belly up. Yeah, ‘Merica!
superbuickguy
Explorer
worse than that - the entire problem was created by the cheap money that caused the housing boom. People could refinance their houses for cheap then go out and buy whatever they wanted - as with most discretionary spending, they didn't buy what was fiscally responsible. So the auto manufacturers had to raise their wages AND build cars that were impractical. Part of the raising wages was included in the pension plans that were guaranteed by the US Government. When the dam finally broke, the government was on the hook for billions in pension plans - which they could have paid simply like an insurance claim, or provide a bailout to the manufacturers and let them pay those pensions. Ultimately, it was far cheaper to loan/buy into the manufacturers on the backs of the shareholders who lost everything. Ford fully realized benefit from the MOPAR/GM bailouts because their union contracts were restructured to the same as the MOPAR/GM plans. The cost per hour per employee went from nearly 20/hr to 11.
thus, listening to people toot their horn about one manufacturer being smarter or better than the other is like any other boast, barely based on some insignificant part of reality. The reality is Ford went broke first. The other reality is we, as a nation, own 15 trillion dollars rather than the 4 trillion dollars we owed before the implosion. And what's really the big issue is eventually cuts will have to be made and pain will be compounded with interest. Unfortunately, no one wants to admit that they're on borrowed time; and so they keep spending even more money than they have. Would the US survive a currency crisis? yes, we have the internal resources to do so; but it won't be pretty because at this point we're spending about 50% more than what we produce. If it does crash, cut what you've got by 80%, and that's what you'll have to live on - add to that the weak, old, and infirm - when your family member shows up at your door (dad, mom, etc) they will also wish to live on that 20% you have left. Heaven help the weak, old, and infirm who have no one.
beags86
Adventurer
OH BOY! I am going to try to stay out of this one! But just one or two thoughts.... I didn't realize Chevy/GM was selling the Reaper...guess i will have to cancel my order with Lingenfelter...
and the Catching up comment.....ever heard of the LS engines? or as you would call it the 6.2... Since you probably don't understand the gen 3-4-5 small block engines. well, for the uninformed, Ford and Dodge has been trying to play "catch up" for 17 years!
Flagster
Expedition Leader
daddyusmaximus
Explorer
Must be why Ford has been the number one selling truck for 30 years.
Darwin
Explorer
I know they sold a lot of 6.ohhs. I see a lot of them around here for sale and cheap, along with the 6.4. Some have been quote "bullet proofed" where the owner spend over 5 grand on upgrades only to blow another head gasket. If they wanted a 'bulletproof' ford they should have called DeStroked. 
CodyY
Explorer
Add Chevy and GMC numbers, then recalculate.
http://www.fool.com/investing/gener...rado-and-sierra-have-topped-the-f-series.aspx